@@noodlesyoutuber funny how you're saying he looks like a fool and yet he hasn't posted a response to the debate he took part in. Either way you can't deny you were being intentionally rude in not letting him even speak and then not addressing that fact with the judges properly. Looks bad on your part 🤷♂️ even if you had good points which I believe you did that gets thrown out the window when you try to silence counter arguments. Also don't see how narratively it makes sense for Kakuzu to be stronger......
@@ToxicChaos115 I don’t think I was rude for the most part, I think my interjections were almost always justified bar a few instances. But there were plenty of times swag also interrupted me and misrepresented my position so I think your criticism is applicable to both people. And not to be rude to you but a debate is not won with politeness but with the strength of points and arguments and I think my points and arguments were stronger regardless of my etiquette. The reason I seems so aggressive is partially because he was talking a lot of trash before the debate so I was not planning to be nice
@@noodlesyoutuber yeah maybe I wanna see you rank the Akatsuki so we can get somewhat of a clear perspective on how strong you think each member is but I’m positive Kakazu in the top 5 tho
This dude can't drop this lmao. How do many times do you have to be proven wrong, hell people new to Naruto can win this "debate" these days. Nice troll if that's your angle
Bro this whole debate was swag defending and making counter claims. He never got a chance to give his arguments and cause you to use counter claims. In my opinion I think it’s quite obvious that pain beats kakazu. There are also many claims to support that but swag never got the opportunity to bring them up.
@holyprotector 555 People will be more likely to see top comment than a response and it’s only one like less lol and I have swag’s fans in these comments and I am taking a very unpopular stance, is it really that unreasonable lol?
Yes he was, and he also made a Chibaku Tensei after being beat up by the Six Tails Naruto, note that all of that was after he battled the entire village, any ammount of "recovery" mid-fight can't even begin to compensate for that.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 I think the chibaku tensei permanently damaged him whereas the chaotic shinra tensei only temporarily took away his ability to use shinra tensei.
@@noodlesyoutuber Even if you believe that, which is very contentious given how much chakra he must have used to do Chaotic Shinra Tensei, so much so that Konan had to return to Nagato to see if the crippled man was ok, he is still extremely fatigued after doing that, fighting the entire village, and getting beat up by Six Tailed Naruto and recieving an attack from Eight Tailed Naruto, which should be close to the full half of the Nine Tails that Naruto has, one half being above all the first 7 Bijuu combined, Pain was completely devastated by the end, yet he beat up Sage Naruto again, who is much faster than base naruto, whose base should be above the Naruto that fought Kakuzu by training. And even if Chaotic Shinra Tensei didin't tire him at all, he was certainly not 100% against Sage Naruto at first because of him fighting the entire village. The best Kakuzu has is fighting the Two Tails, which isn't too far above Shukaku, who got matched by Gamabunta, Gamabunta who got thrown away casually by a fatigued Tendo Pain's Shinra Tensei. Meanwhile Pain is recieving an attack from almost the full half of the Nine Tails, which should be way beyond the Two Tails even in it's 8 tailed form by the aformentioned scaling, it can one-shot it, and it was right after making Chibaku Tensei meaning Pain was vulnerable when he recieved that, yet he is still able to fight and win against Sage Naruto, who is faster than the base Naruto who beat Kakuzu. His fight with Kakashi also puts him above Kakuzu, given Kakashi was taking the fight as a greater threat. I don't see how the hell Kakuzu compares in either speed or power, or how Pain wasn't fatigued vs Naruto. Pain was also stated to be the strongest Akatsuki member, meaning he's above Kakuzu by authorial intent, too.
@@Anne-Cranks you misrepresented noodles lol, he’s not saying appealing to possibility is wrong but it’s wrong when you ignore probability, like induction, it’s irrelevant if it’s logically possible something can happen if you can just take a pragmatic stance and show what’s MORE likely to happen.
Dude both sides don't know how to say they're wrong. There's many occasions where you both fail to prove your points and it's annoying to hear that you think you did a perfect job.
@@noodlesyoutuber I don't think you can claim that when listening to the entire thing, he was mostly playing defense while you were trying to get your points across. It's not a comparable matter when one side doesn't have the chance to say their claims until a rushed conclusion. This is shown severely during the speed argument.
@@danielpreciado6557 pushing your points is the hard part, it’s easy to be skeptic and defensive, I think I won the arguments I pushed forward and was not nearly making the mistakes swag was making, I caused him to pin himself multiple times and he never once did that to me, so yeah I definitely think I performed better
@@noodlesyoutuber He really didn't. You on the other hand use a lot of fallacies, you don't let him speak, you interrupt him, you are rude as fuck saying "no I'm not gonna let you speak fuck you!" Like some sort of spoiled brat, and you fail to follow his arguments. He follows yours and kinda try and see where you're going, while you instantly just ignore his shit.
I wish Swag would've stuck to his guns and did a little bit more research during the sage mode making you faster point because that was the key to this debate. Sage mode increases Chakra (hence the term senjutsu Chakra) and Chakra reserves definitely influence speed (both combat and travel) here's why: 1. In the Manga, Kakashi demonstrates that Chakra enhances running speed when chasing after diedara and focuses Chakra on his legs to run faster. 2. Base Naruto scales to base tsunade and during the pain arc, she was unable to react to the asura path charging yet sage mode Naruto was able to appear on screen seemingly out of nowhere (he was actually a notable distance away being on top of one of the sage frogs) and managed to smash the asura path before tsunade or anyone else could even react. This speed feat is further shown by the fact that it was shown in 1 panel. 3. Naruto specifically mentions that he'll use sage mode to fight the 3rd raikage because he can utilize frag kata and because it's "faster. " So yes, all this definitively proves that sage Naruto is faster than base Naruto. Kakazu failed to react to base Naruto while pain was able to react to sage Naruto and he ultimately only loses due to an enraged 6tail buff .while kakazu might be able to defeat some of the paths of Pain, all that really matters is that tendo pain can use a Shinra tense or chibaku tensei which kakazu can do nothing about. He has nothing in his arsenal to counter it and hasn't demonstrated that he has the ap or durability to counter it. If you disagree please feel free to let me know why. Regardless thank you for the entertaining video, I love both your channel and surfbone's.
I think it's unfair to compare that Tsunade to Naruto, since she was injured to the point she had to be carried away. In chapter 555, page 13, Naruto does say Sage Mode is faster, but how much faster ? Base Naruto was able to parry Tendo's punches, while talking. Then activates Sage Mode and kicks Tendo away. It definitely makes users faster, but I don't think it's anything crazy.
There’s a bunch of problems with your scaling, for one, just having more chakra does not inherently mean you’ll be faster, so just because sage mode gives you more chakra does not prove it makes you faster. If having more chakra made you faster, then part 1 naruto should have been faster than kakashi and basically al the genin. The way in which you can amp your physical speed is through the amount of chakra you can manipulate into your legs, so if naruto’s chakra manipulation is within his normal reserve of chakra then simply adding more chakra would not do anything for him speed wise. Base naruto does not scale to Tsunade? No idea where you got that, Like your justification for basenaruto scaling to Tsunade was Sage naruto reacting to the assurances path? I thought you were trying to argue sage mode naruto was significantly faster than base naruto, so if that’s the case then you wouldn’t be able to demonstrate base naruto is relative to her based upon that, this is also excluding the fact Tsunade was spreading her chakra out across the entire village, and was severely weakened. If you do interpret the sage mode makes you “faster” scan as him being faster in all aspects then the way in which i don’t think is actually prove able, even the amount of speed you gain cannot be significant. The reason it is not significant is because base naruto and sage naruto are both able to react to pain and pain is able to react to both base and sage mode naruto meaning the difference between them is nothing major. which was an argument I used as well. Kakuzu did not fail to react to base naruto. It wasn’t even base naruto to begin with, it was 9 tails amped naruto, and kakuzu reacted to him multiple times and would have killed him had it not been for kakashi and Yamato saving him. As for shinra tensei, it won’t do anything to kakuzu, as both base naruto and kakashi can withstand it with their raw durability, something that kakuzu has much higher of than both of them. Kakuzu is durable enough to withstand biju bombs so there’s no way the ap of either the shinra tensei or chibaku tensei would take him out, and pain doesn’t even use chibaku tensei in character against non biju. Kakuzu just murder blitzes all of them. If you want to talk about this further fee free to join my discord. Hope that clears some stuff up.
@@noodlesyoutuber wow surprised you replied, thank you for that. I actually came here to agree with the previous comment that the tsunade argument doesn't work. Typed a long response but it got deleted when the page refreshed but yea I can concede that. I'll look over this again and I'll get back to you if I have any questions. Edit: I just recently found your page and saw your separate kakazu powerscale vid so I'll check that out too
Tsunade couldn’t do anything cuz she was going to pass out. Remember pain did the big scale explosion on the village and tsunade gave Katsuyu all her 100 healings chakra ,so that nobody would die from the blast radius. If she didn’t there would be no survivors. Once she did that she passed out a second after the Asura path tried to bum rush her. Even her subordinate said “she’s lost all her power”. Comparing base Naruto a tsunade who is going to pass out into a coma isn’t really good scaling ,but I see what your saying.
Ok you said Kakazu blitz Naruto clones which is true but don't you think that's what they was suppose to do you said they was there to distract kakazu so maybe the clones wasn't suppose to do anything other than get speed blitz cause again they are a distraction
So pain destroyed konoha, no diffs kakashi, a weakened pain then beats sage naruto, but can’t beat kakazu who lost to a much weaker naruto? Makes no sense... pain beats kakazu 10/10 times
That’s a bad argument that gets addressed in my kakuzu video if you want to learn more about powerscaling I suggest you go watch that or you can join my discord and come chat with me about it
@@davidspearim5552 they weren’t pushing kakazu they were all losing badly and failed to land even one hit. During that entire fight the could get even one clean hit on kakazu other then sneaking up on him. Kakashi did better against pain in hand to hand then he did against kakazu pain just used hacks to overwhelm kakashi.
@@vilekami2142 still pain defeat The entire village and kakuzu he was barely able to defeat kakashi and naruto didn't even need 9 tails to defeat kakuzu
@@davidspearim5552 naruto was using nine tails chakra when he fought kakazu. Plus Kakazu lost two hearts and naruto was outsped and outclassed in every way. He said that just to not get hit he would need three shadow clones to protect himself. Don’t just state shit while ignoring context and don’t lie to me again.The only reason pain was able to do that to the village was because no one had counters to his abilities.But kakazu can counter every single one. Name something u know for sure that kakazu can’t counter.
I don't necessarily agree with you but i do commend that your taking the time to go through comments and make replies as most youtubers don't. I think we can both agree swag wasn't reading messages during the debate but I don't think any judge can say their being fair while messaging a contestant regardless on the points being made and if there's a counter argument. I personally think pain is stronger but I was happy to hear your points
I feel like this stream was noodles getting fluffed by his friends cuz he feels he was wronged even though he set a time limit and overridden the debate
So you think kakuzi would beat alive itachi? Sage mode does increase speed this is shown when jiraya goes into it and blitzes a body of pain before his sandal hit the ground, the rods amp if the user decides hence why the tendo path is stronger than the actual body(sorry forgot his name) when he was alive. Also its why he gets stronger the more the bodies numbers fall. Back to the first point sauske would blitz naruto at that point in the series but he could blitz alive itachi and using scaling there's no way kakuzu would be relative to edo itachi because that itachi is stronger
@@dillianwhyte443 I'm pretty sure he uses "one of the deadliest members of the Akatsuki"'s statement (Which would put him in the higher half), and Edo Jinchuriki's feats where they outlast KCM Naruto. I don't agree with either of these arguments, but there they are.
I feel like Pain was *intended* to be stronger than Kakuzu, but later-game scaling changed that. Like there are a lot of little clues dropped by both the narrator and character statements that make it seem like Kishimoto wanted Pain to be stronger, and that's why its so hard for people to accept that he isn't. Because we had statements like the narrator saying "The most powerful man in the Akatsuki comes forth" or whatever the hype statement was before he invaded the village. Also stuff like Kakashi (i think) saying stuff like "The leader of this S Rank group has to be real strong" or something like that. Basically implying that he's the strongest because he's the leader, and he has to be the one to keep them all in check. All those little seeds that Kishimoto planted to convey the idea that Pain is supposed to be the strongest, making it hard for people to believe he isn't. It'd be like if Madara was a mid after all that build up he had. But of course, none of that matters because that's not how the story ended up playing out. I was one of them too. I used to think Pain was stronger but after hearing the arguments I just can't really say thats the case anymore. I get how they feel, its weird because Pain just *feels* like he's supposed to be stronger, but the feats really say otherwise.
So youre basically saying like A man running in marathon for 3 straight days, dark circle under his eyes, limping when walking, swetting a f ton, yet can't tell if he's tired cuz he didn't say so himself. Naruto literally fainted during his rasenshuriken training, and even in the war ark which is wayy later than kakuzu fight he said himself that he's tired numerous times including when he summoned a f ton of shadow clones to clash into madara's jukaikoutan and ur saying even a weaker version of him just can never be fatigued. R u serious?
He wasn’t limping sweating nor did he have dark circles under his eyes when he fought kakuzu, only sign he had been training were the scratch marks on his clothing. Naruto is a character who was built up the entire series as having insane chakra and insane recovery. He also made and there multiple rasenshuriken and summoned multiple shadow clones during this fight as well. Anytime in the series when someone is weakened they’re stated or shown to be and naruto had neither of those things.
I mean idk how more you can to be delusional to argue that while ignoring the fact that kakuzu who never seen naruto in his life and naruto's state was more than enough to convince kakuzu that naruto is fatigued and even make him say that out loud. my first sentence was a comparison in real life and still that would be similar to what kakuzu was looking at. Better yet naruto literally fell off and fainted away after he landed his last rasenshuriken. Even if you bring that jutsu's risk to the point, tsunade points out that it damaged naruto's arm not his entire fucking body so its clearly not the main reason why naruto fainted after that. EVEN IF ur arguement is true that naruto had recovered before he had arrived it just doesn't make any fucking sense why he fainted after the fight was over. u just can't blind foldedly argue both that he is never getting fatigued and that he had recovered at the same time yet neither is true. because how the fuck would some one even RECOVER if that per son is NEVER GETTING TIRED. in that sense he CLEAR FUCKING WAS fatigued going into the fight against kakuzu. If youre still gonna argue that kakuzu was wrong by bringing that scratch shenanigan than you shouldn't be arguing that deidara took down isobu only by himself just cuz he said so. like, if you can't take kakuzu's words than you should not be able to take deidara's words. its just contradicts one another. like the over-90-year-old veteran out of veterans couldn't tell if a kid was tired or not but a 19-year-old rookie could tell the absolute truth in regard the entirety of a combat he participates in while being fooled by a top tier uchiha guy along side him? I just really fukin love how you were counter arguing literally every single one of ur own arguments throughout the entire debate
In fact forget all debate and shit and go watch a footage of ultimate ninja storm which is heavily appreciated by Kishimoto himself. It literally has a animated cut scene footage where pein challenges kakuzu and stomps him. even if you don't take it as reference at all just have a rational thought in-character, why would a guy who values money more than literally everything in the world and someone who would kill his own teammate with no guilty mind what so ever even if he or she is slightly against kakuzu's way or will, would even follow pein's command whose will is literally the opposite of his. i think its pretty danm likey that they went into a fight and kakuzu lost unless you argue that pein successfully casted talk no jutsu towards kakuzu which sounds like a total bs. don't even bring KaKuZu CoUlDvE bEeN hOlDiNg BaCk argument because even if he was so did pein would have not to kill kakuzu.
@@noodlesyoutuber No you said “Why is Sage Naruto more powerful than Asuma” giving implication you believe there is some sort of argument that sage Naruto might not be stronger than Asuma or you were joking.
@@exiledknight3961 here's the thing you need to know in debating. Every claim made is an opportunity to trip up your opponent. That's why they always ask for scan becus if this guy says this happen you can say it happened a different way based on what you see. Just becus he asked swag to prove asuma being strong that doesn't mean that's what he believed
Im pretty sure if you swap the scenario to team 10 and naruto, "not fatigued", with his new rasenshuriken, against pain, they would have lost. He's literally the big bad of the first half of shippuden. Like at this point no one was stronger than Pain except Tobi really
They would have lost for sure, but the reasons that they would have lost are outside of strength and speed. Pain is a much more difficult matchup for naruto because he has to put down 6 different opponents whereas by the time he fought kakuzu he had already absorbed his other hearts making him a solidarity target along with the fact they don’t know of nagato’s existence. Naruto only has to hit kakuzu with one rasenshuriken whereas he has to hit pain with 6, much more difficult to do. Also the Naraka path bringing pains back to life means they’ll have to probably kill some of the pains more than once also increasing the difficulty. The issue with pain fighting kakuzu, is that he is specifically good at fighting multiple people, and most of his abilities are actually strong enough to one shot a path of pain due to them lacking durability. The biggest issue I think pain generates in a fight with kakuzu is his ability to absorb ninjutsu, which although is good, It does not stop kakuzu from overwhelming him with one of his major ninjutsu like we saw when naruto overpowered delta’s absorption in boruto, and also it only really protects himself and maybe one other path of pain, unless the pains decide to make a conga line behind the preta path forcing themself into sitting ducks, then I think they all get blitzed and destroyed. Pain does not have many methods of killing kakuzu and that’s the issue along with a severe lack of physical stats to help him.
@@noodlesyoutuber I agree when it comes to durability for some paths of pain but not all of them especially the deva path also you are forgetting that they work as a team and I'd argue that they are more durable and overall stronger than the naruto clones that fought kakuzu alongside him that is without mentioning the summons of the animal path which leads me to believe if there was ever a fight between pain and kakuzu he will be overwhelmed that without mentioning the naraka path that will just keep respawning the other paths if they happen to get destroyed and I don't see pain allowing kakuzu to get close to the animal nor the naraka path nor kakuzu being able to overcome the Shinra tensei however if and this is a very big if he manages to take out all the paths of pain with the exception of the deva one I don't see in any reality how he can overcome the chibaku tensei it took bee itachi and kcm1 naruto strongest attacks just to destroy one chibaku tensei and kakuzu as much as you love to wank him he isn't at that level
Hey noodles not sure if you check these comments but I’ve been binging your posts while I write my D&D scripts. This debate in particular sticks out to me as most of Swag’s arguments in this debate are identical to Kabuki’s arguments in the Kabuki vs Swag and six debate. Just a shit load of reduction to absurdity arguments, appeal to popularity arguments and appeal to possibility arguments. I used to like swag but after seeing him post out of context clips of this debate (and his debate with parrot) and posting them on his account, I’ve kinda lost respect for him as a scaler and debater.
@@stasonfrost How can you lie so much in a single comment? Base Naruto blitzed Kakuzu. - Firstly in their fight naruto is always using kyuubi chakra read the manga and not the anime. 2nd Naruto himself states that Kakuzu is way faster than him not to mention even Choji says "We can't hit him that fast, not this guy" that basically means that everyone in that battlefield is slower than Kakuzu. Pain never blitzed Sage Naruto, Sage Naruto was destroying Pain, even naruto himself said "Now that I'm in sage mode you can't hurt me". And we even see Pain trade blows with Base Naruto, he trades blows with Base Naruto who is weaker than the one who fought Kakuzu. Pain only beats Naruto when he loses Sage Mode and he manages to kill that frog guy and throw him against Naruto. That's the only reason he won. And btw saying cope at the end doesn't make your argument sound more convincing specially when it's basis are just pure lies
I don't follow your channel Noodles, but I love Naruto and have watched and rewatched for years, and I'm not even a Naruto debater yet I can prove Kakazu gets stomped by Pain. I listened to the entire thing end to end and honestly man you diverted and redirected so many times, you constantly talked over him and basically said "well since he doesn't have any points for his speed or durability then I guess I win and if he doesn't want to debate again I win too" even though you didn't let him speak and make points against you when you "BUT IT'S LITERALLY STATED-" like with: ❌Kakazu is the deadliest Akatsuki member (narratively, he's been alive the longest, and therefore very well could have killed many people, it does not necessarily mean he kills with greater ease) ❌Asuma AP and durability= sage Naruto (...no) ❌Shikamaru is Kakashi level speed (was not 100% proven by feat) ❌Base Naruto can box with Pain (Naruto was pressed when he ran out of Sage chakra) And last but not least, Naruto nearly one shot Kakazu, and yes I know Kakazu was weakened. However, Naruto went in and made short work of him by almost getting him with one attack, then did the exact same thing again and bodied him. Sorry but it's plain that Kakazu got jobbed for the Rasenshuriken. With Pain, however Naruto went in with five top summons from Mount Myoboku, three full charges of sage chakra, pain being substantially weakened by chaotic shinra tensei as well as having Intel on nearly all of pain's abilities AND STILL ALMOST LOST and only didn't because of Hinata triggering him, which sent him to six tails in which he was putting pressure on Tendo pain. This scaling alone from a stronger, sage mode perfected Naruto is enough to put Kakazu below pain. If THAT isn't enough, I can tell you all of the ways that pain can beat Kakazu in another comment
And I know it's only a Naruto debate, but just the sheer frustration I felt hearing some of these points and knowing that some of the premises were ridiculous left me scratching my head. I haven't any more of your content other than the debate, would love to if you'd acknowledge the argument with feat based rebuttals and not just statements
@@danielharrison5731 I mean for one half of those arguments were not my arguments and the way you tried to debunk them was not well thought out so if you’d like I’d be more than willing to talk with you in my server to convince you
@@noodlesyoutuber you mean after you did a whole smear campaign on him and said outlandish claims on his name? Yah no I wouldn’t do a part two with you either 😂😂
@@tony4410 for one, I have never said anything bad about swagkage outside of the debate nor have I ever insulted anything other than his ego and his content. So you’re completely wrong
18:30 I think what swag was referring to here was if sasuke in curse mark mode punched an object that can only be affected by senjutsu like truth seeking orb shield, it wouldn’t do any damage to it.. tbh it sounds like head cannon though because you cant really prove or disprove that theory, I mean that’s like trying to say narutos fist can do damage to that same object but again it’s really hard to prove that
This came up on my recommended but plz tell me this is satire and you don't actually believe Kakazu can beat Pain. Tendo Pain alone beat Kakazu in Storm Revolution. It's not confirmed that the cutscenes in the game are canon other than Generations but i feel like that should've been mentioned. But i should also watch part 1 to see if it was mentioned there
I always thought kakazu was downplayed he was smoking naruto regardless if he was exhausted or not I seriously thought naruto was going to lose the way kakazu was blitzing him not to mention as you say his attack potential is bonkers and I'm obviously a fan of swag but I did feel your argument and premise was stronger
You won this. too many die hard fans. I watch swag all time and even I gotta say there's so many things he said that puts him on lock and he just backs out of it I don't like the way he handled this debate. U made a fool outta this guy and almost nobody wants to admit it just scrolling literally first few comments. This is mad take my sub NOW!!!!
I did say he was faster I just said it wasn’t significant, like both base naruto and sage naruto are able to react to tendo and tendo is able to react to both sage and base naruto as well, so yeah I do think I was right in my assessment
@@yasserjimenez8070 I did say it enhanced his reaction speed but that’s what I’m talking about, there is no significant gain in actual movement or combat speed
@@noodlesyoutuberbro you just said it again. You said no movement speed and you mean to tell me you still don’t know that it enhances his travel speed? Naruto even steps and kills a pain that was going to attack tsunade before she could react. And then she saw the resemblance of minato and jiraiya that was clearly meant to show a speed amp and have you forgotten the feat with jiraiya in which he outruns the sandal? It’s pretty clear it’s trying to show the speed of sage mode and this is without regarding that it’s an imperfect sage mode
@@yasserjimenez8070 I didn’t say “no movement speed” I said no “significant movement or combat speed” and the justification for it you for some reason ignored, tendo was able to react to both base and sage naruto and both base and sage reacted to him in the part where naruto kicks tendo really hard and sends him flying. This means that there is not a significant gain as they were already relative before. The point at which naruto blitzes the path of pain attacking Tsunade, there were more paths of pain up meaning that they were all weaker as the chakra from nagato is split more ways between them. I don’t remember sandal “scene” but keep in mind that I’ve only read the manga, and this debate was based in the manga so anime was not used to make the arguments, but if it is in the manga send it to me and I’ll look it over
@@noodlesyoutuber sounds good man. You make some good points on Kakazu, but I feel like you and Seth both bully too much. When debating, it's best to stick to facts, stay away from getting emotional, and not try to get other people mad by talking crap. I'm just saying man.
@@BryanatGameStop if you’ve ever watched my aero debate or most of my debates in general I do try to stay away from emotional outbursts and stick to facts. Obviously I’m not perfect with it but for the most part I’m pretty good about keeping composed, but I can see where you’re coming from.
I'm so sick of you fanboys sucking off Swag....Noodles made better use of his limited time to explore Kakuzu's feats and the points he made were VALID. Swag never made points that backed his claims and he made many contradicting statements on multiple occasions. Most of you were saying that Noodles didn't give Swag time to make his points, but that's only because Swag was constantly asking Noodles "Why" in an effort to understand feats or knowledge of something he should already know coming into the debate in the first place. Noodles wins the debate not only due to better points and arguments but he wins based on the lack of knowledge Swag displayed in this curb stomp...I meant "debate"
Wow this whole comment is trash U see in the video swag trying to make his points even mentions how he’s gonna scale pain to kcm 1 naruto and immediately noodles runs saying he got work . The judges even said why did you even set it up like this and now if you knew u where limited and had to do something u knew days ahead. that’s why he wanted to go first and even told swag in the beginning that he’ll let him do his scaling later. Swag tried to keep going but coward ran
@@proastropath7862 nah show this Knowledge you got since u say I got non He ran that’s the truth He mentions the scaling he was gonna show in his conclusion Quit defending someone who tries to say he won even tho he ran
@@proastropath7862 why? Can’t defend noodles so u looking for a w somewhere else That’s so dumb too if I pick one you’ll just pick one that obviously stomps Try again fodder
Dominated too. So far in my viewing, Swag's points are so inconsequential, that even if he can somehow prove his assertions to be true, it still doesn't affect the the Kakuzu vs Pain debate enough to turn the tide in Pain's favor
No one won noodles just kept talking over swag so swag couldn't really say anything I don't necessarily call myself a fan of either one I watched few swag videos and a few of noodles videos I see points on each side but you can't accurately scale fake characters you just can't yes you can say this that but it's all assumptions
you're a good debater but you do the thing that most good debaters do when they're losing ground, circling back on statements constantly and trying to make someone slip up by rephrasing info already stated. you also tend to disregard relevant info to the topic when it doesnt fit the point you're trying to make at that specific moment. kudos to dying on this rock though lmao
No, this debate had a lot of restatements due to swag trying to push multiple points at once a lot, I don’t think I lost ground on basically any point, the repetition aspect also came with Swag restating his points and creating ad nausem arguments as well. And no I didn’t disregard any relevant information to the topic, I literally addressed every one of swags arguments, so you actually can’t say I have confirmation bias. The only argument you could maybe say I did that with was the sage mode point when he brought up the sage mode increases speed scan and I argued that it increased reaction speed, which he didn’t refute, so even on that one argument I made a rebuttal.
@@noodlesyoutuber im just pointing out what i heard. maybe it was in the way you presented your rebuttals that needed work then, because it felt as if you were on the back foot in quite a few instances, regardless of who was in the right, thats just how it landed for a non biased viewer. on a side note: that sage mode argument upset me and idk why he didnt push back (we both know sage mode bolsters all physical attributes speed, stamina, reflexes and strength!)
@@mr.penguin4614 I don’t think it significantly boosts your actual speed due to both base naruto and sage naruto being able to react to pain and pain being able to react to both sage and base as well. It just means the difference between the two is negligible. But I think the way I presented it sounds fine, it just might not be as convincing an average viewer, but I’m not really worried about being convincing, just having strong arguments
@@noodlesyoutuber do you take into consideration the motivations of characters during the fight? at many points it seems like pain is trying to break naruto's will more so than just kill him and at the same time naruto is trying to prove to pain that his philosophy is flawed to pretty much no avail. is that something worth considering or is that too speculative? i know authors intent is a pretty muddled area for debates, im just curious if it holds value without being explicitly stated as such. like when KCM naruto is "fighting" edo itatchi for example, the intent is obviously not to kill even if not stated. in contrast, in the case of pain they are obviously trying to kill one another but during certain points throughout the fight, the physical battle is not the focus of either character. does that have any effect on your opinion or not at all? also i appreciate that you reply to your comments.
@@mr.penguin4614 yeah sometimes a characters motivations or intent is made clear and it can have an effect on the battle, so in the case of naruto and pain, I agree that they’re not trying to kill racha other, naruto is simply trying to destroy the paths of pain, and nagato is also trying to capture naruto.
At least Swag didn’t ask stupid questions like "Why is Sage Mode Naruto stronger than Asuma?" LOL. 🍜 is a TH-camr who is wallowing in the ocean of self-deception. Pain destroyed Kakashi in ONE episode in the anime. Kakuzu FAILS MISERABLY to do that in like THREE TO FOUR episodes in the anime. But somehow, Kakuzu "one-shots" the paths of Pain. Laugh my head off.
Ngl, I'd low key join the discord, just to learn how to debate better with my friends and stuff. Plus I wanna win arguments that seem absurd to them like Haku beating Pain
I lowkey stay away from debating because I'm not a power scaler and I'm not that much as a manga reader and some dudes be taking this debating shii serious af. But I like to listening to anime debates tho.
Well it's not hard to scale see what pain and kakazu did and which one do you think did more to me pain did no doubt kakazu went toe to toe with Kakashi yes Kakazu finally got the advantage over Kakashi but Kakashi didn't have help with Kakazu like he did with pain and Kakashi only took out 2 pains I think I can't remember honestly but Kakashi had choji and choza or however his dad name is spelt
These debates are so obnoxious and incoherent a lot of the times, it's nice to have you pause it and explain your arguement and why swag isn't making sense. Honestly tho swag is terrible at debating and reasoning, even in his own vs videos
i mean like, didn't kakashi almost kill Pain (deva path) if it wasnt for the other Path stepping in. I don't see why Kakuzu couldn't kill Deva Path pain he has alot of firepower at his disposal plus those tendrils that come out of his body. I been on forums where peeps do admit kakuzu could beat pain if he doesn't use planetary devastation.
Debate happened months ago as did this video. Why don’t you try and let it go? and debate breakdowns are my thing anyway so of course I’m gonna make a breakdown on it, only reason it ended up 3 hours was because there were many convoluted points that needed some pretty in depth explanation nothing more.
@@noodlesyoutuber Wait why does it matter when this debate happened😂? I just recently watched the debate and both of yall said what yall needed to say. Why dont I try and let it go??? Wtf HAHAHHAHAHAH. U lost, just accept it. Streaming for 3h reacting to it comes off as lame n tryhard. Give it up
@@fiidisksdiduui1898 the time of the debate matters because usually when an incident occurs it’s considered okay to talk about it then because it’s relevant but if you’re still talking about it months later when it’s not relevant it starts to set in that the incident has become a burden on your mind. It is at this point that “letting it go” is beneficial to you because you will have removed that burden on your mind and stop letting it affect your conversation. So yes commenting on a debate months after it happened does make it seem ironic that you are asking me to let it go when I never actively talk about it unless brought up to me. Even if you saw the debate recently you still have 0 room to say “I should” let it go considering you have no idea if this is even thought about passively or actively anymore. You basically are just jumping straight to the conclusion that “because I made a 3 hour breakdown” of the debate that means I have yet to let it go when I’m reality I make debate breakdown videos and very in depth researched content as it is anyway and this video just happened to be longer because I was on stream and wanted to address all of the points. Wasn’t about spite or anything like that only about knowledge and views. Also saying “You lost xd” does not mean I lost so unless you have a reason why I lost that statement is just as valueless as the comments you’ve posted so far.
@@noodlesyoutuber Oh man I really struck a nerve😭 Man wrote a whole essay on me, u should just do a stream responding to me at this point LMAOOOOO. You say I'm still talking abt the debate months later, assuming I knew abt the debate when ut first happened. Im not sure ur reading my responses properly buddy, I said I JUST watched and stumbled across the debate recently🤦🏿♂️ And nothing tells me that uve let it go and moved on 3 months later, considering how defensive u are🤷🏿♂️ If u did then good for u my guy. Also, I dont need to go into reasons on why u lost, not everybody has the tike to just casually type out a whole essay replay like u but im sure uve looked at the comments and general consesus is, u lost... HAHAHAHHHAH.
@@fiidisksdiduui1898 “You say I’m still talking about the debate months later” No, nowhere in my comment did I say this, I said that it seemed ironic that you would tell me to let it go when the debate happened months ago and you’re commenting about it now, and I went on to elaborate that if you had just recently stumbled across the debate then you’re still making baseless assumptions about whether or not I have moved on or not. Truth is you have no idea if I have so you’re basically just showing me that you’ve failed to remove swags hotdog from your throat. “Not sure you read the response properly buddy” Nope literally addressed every important aspect of your comment and considering you just straw manned and misrepresented me within the first 2 sentences of yours, it shows you didn’t read the original comment properly. “Nothing tells me that uve let it go and moved on 3 months later” This doesn’t justify your original position or any position for that matter. Like this same argument could be applied to tons of different arguments such as “Nothing tells me you don’t like taking swag’s sausage in your butt” therefore it’s true. The issue with this is obvious. Just because I lack the evidence for one side of a proposition to be true does not mean the negation is correct. Absence of evidence does not affirm anything. For clarification yes I have moved on, I don’t talk about it to anyone unless brought up to me usually in these comments. “Also I don’t need to go into reasons why you lost, I don’t have the time to type out essay’s like you” Yeah that’s fine I never said you were obligated to give reason, all I said was that your position is valueless if you don’t, so sure you can have a valueless position it won’t bother me don’t worry. “The general consensus is that you lost” This is actually the case for multiple reasons. For starters and the most obvious, swag has a million subs, I have 2000 so obviously more people will more likely agree with swag just from being apart of his fan base alone. The second is I am taking an extremely unpopular position which opens room for character bias, and people liking pain more than kakuzu which will lead to many people not agreeing with me. For 3 many of the arguments I make can be pretty complex so it’s not easy as “pain big strong he beat kakuzu” type of arguments that swag and most people arguing for pain make. These reasons all explain why many people would side with swag without actually addressing the validity and soundness of the arguments given, so just saying “more people think swag won” does not actually show or prove that swag won, only analyzing arguments themselves can do that. This is a classic case of an appeal to popularity as well which is a fallacy that dictates “more people believe this therefore it’s true.” The most obvious example of why this is not necessarily the case is people believing in flat earth back in the 1600 and 1700’s. Or people believing the earth was the center of the universe. Even though all these people believed it Galileo still proved them wrong. Anyway though unless you have some other stupid reply for me to dunk on, I’m gonna go back to watching my anime and jerking off, later
Yo noodles, you missed a great opportunity in your debate with swagkage. When he started giving you Six’s argument about the MS he said that sasuke was stronger because of the MS in the 5 kage summit. You should’ve brought up his own explanation/seths explanation they use in their videos. That the emotional state of the MS user is what makes their power flair up. He and Seth bring up Sakura and tobirama’s statements that the emotions of the MS user created special chakra in their brain behind their eyes and that specifically makes them stronger. Swag said sasuke stronger in the 5 kage summit BECAUSE of the Ms. it was acctually because he was about to kill the kage and danzo. Swag brought up that karin says sasuke’s chakra is flaring up and “colder” or something. She was noticing him getting stronger because of his emotions, not an MS amp. He asked you in your debate about me sasuke vs bee, then ms sasuke vs 5 kage and cites the mangekyo as the reason why, and pretended he didn’t make explicit videos citing as the emotions of them depressed uchiha as WHY they get crazy amps.
@@noodlesyoutuber yea that would’ve been a really good debunk for him/Six’s argument. Seth kinda alludes to it in his most recent itachi video, about their emotions amping them. I was praying you’d drop that on them cause Swag has been referencing this for ages Just a good piece of scaling for future use. Keep up the good work
@@noodlesyoutuber just watched your debate with king bullet. Him, six and swagkage all hit you with the kage summit sasuke MS amp saying it amps inherently etc. which I brought up to you on this thread. You need to be on point with that tobirama/Sakura statement saying the emotions of the MS amp the user by creating special chakra, but it only happens in specific moments of sorrow, grief, anger, sadness etc. sasuke getting close to killing danzo at the summit and avenging Itachi are why he was stronger at 5 kage. NOT because the MS always just massively amps you.
Kakashi was fast enough to counter him which is a speed feat so yeah if Kakashi could keep up with him I'm sure Naruto can to which to be fair idk who was stronger here Kakashi or Naruto I think Kakashi cause he was going toe to toe with both for awhile and Kakashi also stated he could beat Kakazu
I kinda feel like the part of swag bringing up Kakazu choosing the wrong shadow clone to downplay kakazu's intelligence is kinda redundant. Like kakazu attacked the one that had a rasenshuriken. That's not a dumb thing to do lmao.
@@noodlesyoutuber well Noodles I been watching your debates for years and I never seen you lose lol even if I seen you debating multiple who constantly get involved I haven’t seen you take a L. And my favorite debates you have beaten Like Swag and Jade
Ah yes, if Choji says it, then it must be true! Should we take everything Hashirama says as fact, too? Minato sure is trash at Sage mode, right? Using what someone says as an inscrutable fact is going to get you laughed at
There are two forms of evidence when power scaling, statements and feats. Feats are the stronger of the two pieces of evidence, but that does not invalidate statements. Yes statements are fallible but that doesn’t invalidate them entirely. There’s a reason court rooms and judges accept eyewitness testimony as evidence even if it’s not strong evidence. And the only way you’d be able to say choji’s statement is wrong in this instance is if he’s lying which he has absolutely no reason to do and doesn’t act like that in character. So yeah I do think the statement stands
@@noodlesyoutuber well I don't believe he's intentionally lying, but he's not exactly a rocket surgeon, even according to the data books, so his statements are less than reliable, imo. I respect your explanation tho, and agree generally, just not in this instance
Swag didn't ask stupid questions like "Why is Sage Naruto stronger than Asuma?" You can weep all you like, but Swag has got his head in the right place.
@@thesupercat3611 Swag did appeal to ignorance in this very debate via saying “you can’t prove that the genjutsu would effect pain” in response to noodles saying “pain has never shown resistance to this level of genjutsu” as well as swag hardly addressing noodles main arguments, just being incredulous towards them, so saying he has the right head is stretching it. That asuma question also isn’t stupid because if two characters have no scaling to each other and one of them doesn’t have anti feats, then neither can be used as an anti feat to get another character below them, it’s basic scaling.
@@princelamar1735 Actually, we're talking about "Kakuzu vs. Pain" not the recent "Itachi vs. Pain" debate that they had on Six's channel. So, I don’t see how "genjutsu resistance" comes into the picture, it's not like Kakuzu has any Genjutsu abilities. No, you're wrong. Noodles did ask a LOT of stupid questions and a lot of his arguments were just blatantly dumb. As for the Asuma question, yes, it is EXTREMELY stupid. Two characters don’t need to have any scaling to each other before we can reasonably determine who is stronger. Or are you telling me now that we honestly don't know who is stronger between Asuma and Sage Mode Naruto? Things don't have to go through a scaling before we arrive at a reasonable conclusion. That's why we have common sense. Based on the logic you're using I too should be able to ask "Why or how is Juubidara stronger than Asuma?" After all, there's no opponent that both of them share. Or can you scale Kakuzu above Shizune? I honestly don’t know who's stronger since there are no opponents that connect them. A lot of Noodles' scalings are also VERY erroneous and VERY debunkable. Saying Kakuzu scales to KCM 1 Naruto via the Yugito scaling is one of them. Based on that logic, I would be equally correct if I said "Deidara scales to alive blind Madara because Deidara was able to react to Shukaku's arms in his fight against Gaara, and that same Shukaku blitzed Madara in the War arc." You see how dumb Noodles' scalings are. It's really unfortunate that he actually has this many supporters. And if you're one of them, then you too are delusional.
@@thesupercat3611 The reason the “genjutsu resistance” comes into this picture is because you were saying swag had the right head on his soldiers so I used that as an example to explain why he infact doesn’t. You can believe that his arguments are dumb from your pov, but his arguments are consistent with the logic of power scaling and actually make sense when you think about it from that leanse. On the surface you are correct. Two characters do not need to scale to each other in order to say who is stronger based on a difference of feats. However, This is not what I was arguing against though. What I said in my previous comment (in more detail) was essentially if character A and B have no scaling relations to each other, and there’s an extra character named character C who has impressive feats, then neither character A or B can be used as anti feats against C, in order to say C scales below either one of them. You can’t use C not killing A to say C would lose to B, and you can’t use C not killing B to say C would lose to A. If Anything, A or B doing well against C would be a feat for them rather then an anti feat for C. That’s my argument in more detail. This applies to the Asuma question because swag was using asuma as an anti feat for kakazu who has good feats, however since asuma has no scaling relations to sage naruto then that would be a feat for asuma rather then an anti feat for kakazu. That’s the role the asuma question plays from a power scaling perspective. So while I agree with your reasoning (in the sense that we can say juubidara > asuma or things like that based on a difference of feats alone) the issue is what your talking about is not exactly what is happening with the asuma question as I hopefully laid out. How exactly does your deidera example prove the yugito scaling is dumb? Kakazu reacted to yugito, that is a feat, and we do go by feats in scaling. Also, If you’ve seen noodles other videos as well you should know that he uses the databooks to point out that the akatsuki are stated to be stronger then jinchuriki, so noodles scaling kakazu over yugito and kcm1 naruto is not out there as even material from the author believes he’s at that level. You believing his scalings is dumb doesn’t make it dumb from a power scaling perspective, which is what noodles goes by. Noodles has supporters because he is one of the best power scalers in the community. You can call me delusional however you only claim that due to you being ignorant and not willing to acknowledge points that exist outside of your beliefs, so I don’t really care what you think. It’s a shame swag has supporters since he’s willing to be dishonest and use appeal to ignorance as I pointed earlier for pain to resist genjutsu, something that is against the scaling perspective, and is against your own very reasoning for being against the asuma question because swag outright said you can’t scale itachis genjutsu over pain if it has not been shown to effect him, that is outright no different from your issue with “why is sage naruto stronger then asuma”. Apply your own standards against noodles to swag as well before you want to claim he has a good head on his soldiers, unless you want to be a hypocrite in which case you would be just as delusional as you claim me.
@@princelamar1735 I can see that this is beginning to get tense, and truth is that I do not want this to be anymore uncivil than it already is. I'm the one who spoke harshly first, so my apologies for calling you "delusional." Shouldn't have lost my temper too easily like that. Won't happen again. It's just that personally, to me, (I don’t want to use the "appeal to popularity" tactic. I want to give MY own honest thoughts on the topic instead of just going with the "most people in the community say Pain wins, therefore he wins" way of thinking) for a person to be able to reach the conclusion that Kakuzu beats Pain, they deliberately have to wriggle their way through some rather shaky/questionable means of scaling, be hypocritical, and even just patently dishonest with themself.
im sorry but just accept the loss. this is getting cringe
You’re right swag is starting to look like a fool
@@noodlesyoutuber funny how you're saying he looks like a fool and yet he hasn't posted a response to the debate he took part in. Either way you can't deny you were being intentionally rude in not letting him even speak and then not addressing that fact with the judges properly. Looks bad on your part 🤷♂️ even if you had good points which I believe you did that gets thrown out the window when you try to silence counter arguments. Also don't see how narratively it makes sense for Kakuzu to be stronger......
@@ToxicChaos115 I don’t think I was rude for the most part, I think my interjections were almost always justified bar a few instances. But there were plenty of times swag also interrupted me and misrepresented my position so I think your criticism is applicable to both people. And not to be rude to you but a debate is not won with politeness but with the strength of points and arguments and I think my points and arguments were stronger regardless of my etiquette. The reason I seems so aggressive is partially because he was talking a lot of trash before the debate so I was not planning to be nice
@@noodlesyoutuber and thats why swag buried you lol
Wtf... why are people so cringe?
Well if Swag got a chance to say what he said in his conclusion Noodles would’ve took the L so if y’all continue the debate....
I actually think the second portion of the debate would have been easier. The resilience of kakuzu is probably his best attribute
@@noodlesyoutuber yeah maybe I wanna see you rank the Akatsuki so we can get somewhat of a clear perspective on how strong you think each member is but I’m positive Kakazu in the top 5 tho
@@sauxewon21 hes done that video before; go to his channel to check it out!
I know right
@@dillianwhyte443 too bad six tails isn’t strong
This dude can't drop this lmao. How do many times do you have to be proven wrong, hell people new to Naruto can win this "debate" these days. Nice troll if that's your angle
if you got the confidence to make that claim then do you have the balls to actually support it? Or just cry more in the comments
@@noodlesyoutuber from where I stand, you seem to be the one crying in the comments bruh…
@@cringemeat9430 nah I’m just defending my positions
Bro just take the L christ this is getting sad, kakazu is ass compared to pain
Feel free to join the discord yo debate it if you like, link is in the description
Bro this whole debate was swag defending and making counter claims. He never got a chance to give his arguments and cause you to use counter claims. In my opinion I think it’s quite obvious that pain beats kakazu. There are also many claims to support that but swag never got the opportunity to bring them up.
There really isn’t much to support pain winning, you can come to my discord and talk to me about it if you want
@holyprotector 555 People will be more likely to see top comment than a response and it’s only one like less lol and I have swag’s fans in these comments and I am taking a very unpopular stance, is it really that unreasonable lol?
@@noodlesyoutuber il debate you
@@johndoran4704 feel free to click the link on the description to my discord
@@noodlesyoutuber I clicked the link but there's like 3 chats
Wasn't pain fatigued after blowing up the hole village
We talk about this in the stream but pain says he regained his power almost immediately after base naruto reacts and combats him
Yes he was, and he also made a Chibaku Tensei after being beat up by the Six Tails Naruto, note that all of that was after he battled the entire village, any ammount of "recovery" mid-fight can't even begin to compensate for that.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 I think the chibaku tensei permanently damaged him whereas the chaotic shinra tensei only temporarily took away his ability to use shinra tensei.
@@noodlesyoutuber Even if you believe that, which is very contentious given how much chakra he must have used to do Chaotic Shinra Tensei, so much so that Konan had to return to Nagato to see if the crippled man was ok, he is still extremely fatigued after doing that, fighting the entire village, and getting beat up by Six Tailed Naruto and recieving an attack from Eight Tailed Naruto, which should be close to the full half of the Nine Tails that Naruto has, one half being above all the first 7 Bijuu combined, Pain was completely devastated by the end, yet he beat up Sage Naruto again, who is much faster than base naruto, whose base should be above the Naruto that fought Kakuzu by training.
And even if Chaotic Shinra Tensei didin't tire him at all, he was certainly not 100% against Sage Naruto at first because of him fighting the entire village.
The best Kakuzu has is fighting the Two Tails, which isn't too far above Shukaku, who got matched by Gamabunta, Gamabunta who got thrown away casually by a fatigued Tendo Pain's Shinra Tensei.
Meanwhile Pain is recieving an attack from almost the full half of the Nine Tails, which should be way beyond the Two Tails even in it's 8 tailed form by the aformentioned scaling, it can one-shot it, and it was right after making Chibaku Tensei meaning Pain was vulnerable when he recieved that, yet he is still able to fight and win against Sage Naruto, who is faster than the base Naruto who beat Kakuzu.
His fight with Kakashi also puts him above Kakuzu, given Kakashi was taking the fight as a greater threat.
I don't see how the hell Kakuzu compares in either speed or power, or how Pain wasn't fatigued vs Naruto.
Pain was also stated to be the strongest Akatsuki member, meaning he's above Kakuzu by authorial intent, too.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 but sage mode doesn’t make you faster from base it heightens your reaction but not your physical speed as far as I know 🙌🏽
New video title: "Walking tall appeal to possibility criticises me for appealing to possibility"
Then take the entire debate out of context and misrepresent Swag as to make him look as dumb as possible
@@Anne-Cranks what😭
@@coolnotwhip5614 😂 ayy swag did that to parrot and tried doing it to Noodles😂 bout time he got a taste of his own medicine
@@Anne-Cranks you misrepresented noodles lol, he’s not saying appealing to possibility is wrong but it’s wrong when you ignore probability, like induction, it’s irrelevant if it’s logically possible something can happen if you can just take a pragmatic stance and show what’s MORE likely to happen.
@@Anne-Cranks probability=/=possibility
Dude both sides don't know how to say they're wrong. There's many occasions where you both fail to prove your points and it's annoying to hear that you think you did a perfect job.
Never claimed to have did a perfect job, I just think I did substantially better than swagkage
@@noodlesyoutuber I don't think you can claim that when listening to the entire thing, he was mostly playing defense while you were trying to get your points across. It's not a comparable matter when one side doesn't have the chance to say their claims until a rushed conclusion. This is shown severely during the speed argument.
@@danielpreciado6557 pushing your points is the hard part, it’s easy to be skeptic and defensive, I think I won the arguments I pushed forward and was not nearly making the mistakes swag was making, I caused him to pin himself multiple times and he never once did that to me, so yeah I definitely think I performed better
@@noodlesyoutuber You definitely didn't. You have no where near the self awareness to come to that moronic conclusion.
@@reminiscence5561 I mean feel free to actually point out how I’m wrong rather than just saying it
Bro…. Is noodles serious? Swag killed him 😂
He lost every major point tho
@@noodlesyoutuber He really didn't. You on the other hand use a lot of fallacies, you don't let him speak, you interrupt him, you are rude as fuck saying "no I'm not gonna let you speak fuck you!" Like some sort of spoiled brat, and you fail to follow his arguments. He follows yours and kinda try and see where you're going, while you instantly just ignore his shit.
@@Magnusbk1 yeah he also said he was joking and let Swag continue to speak
@@noodlesyoutuber he didn’t HAVE any major points bc he was too busy trying to correct every wrong statement you made (which was all of them)
@@noodlesyoutuber why are you so insecure about yourself that you feel the need to respond to every comment saying swag destroyed you (which he did)?
I wish Swag would've stuck to his guns and did a little bit more research during the sage mode making you faster point because that was the key to this debate. Sage mode increases Chakra (hence the term senjutsu Chakra) and Chakra reserves definitely influence speed (both combat and travel) here's why:
1. In the Manga, Kakashi demonstrates that Chakra enhances running speed when chasing after diedara and focuses Chakra on his legs to run faster.
2. Base Naruto scales to base tsunade and during the pain arc, she was unable to react to the asura path charging yet sage mode Naruto was able to appear on screen seemingly out of nowhere (he was actually a notable distance away being on top of one of the sage frogs) and managed to smash the asura path before tsunade or anyone else could even react. This speed feat is further shown by the fact that it was shown in 1 panel.
3. Naruto specifically mentions that he'll use sage mode to fight the 3rd raikage because he can utilize frag kata and because it's "faster. "
So yes, all this definitively proves that sage Naruto is faster than base Naruto. Kakazu failed to react to base Naruto while pain was able to react to sage Naruto and he ultimately only loses due to an enraged 6tail buff .while kakazu might be able to defeat some of the paths of Pain, all that really matters is that tendo pain can use a Shinra tense or chibaku tensei which kakazu can do nothing about. He has nothing in his arsenal to counter it and hasn't demonstrated that he has the ap or durability to counter it.
If you disagree please feel free to let me know why. Regardless thank you for the entertaining video, I love both your channel and surfbone's.
I think it's unfair to compare that Tsunade to Naruto, since she was injured to the point she had to be carried away.
In chapter 555, page 13, Naruto does say Sage Mode is faster, but how much faster ? Base Naruto was able to parry Tendo's punches, while talking. Then activates Sage Mode and kicks Tendo away. It definitely makes users faster, but I don't think it's anything crazy.
There’s a bunch of problems with your scaling, for one, just having more chakra does not inherently mean you’ll be faster, so just because sage mode gives you more chakra does not prove it makes you faster. If having more chakra made you faster, then part 1 naruto should have been faster than kakashi and basically al the genin. The way in which you can amp your physical speed is through the amount of chakra you can manipulate into your legs, so if naruto’s chakra manipulation is within his normal reserve of chakra then simply adding more chakra would not do anything for him speed wise.
Base naruto does not scale to Tsunade? No idea where you got that, Like your justification for basenaruto scaling to Tsunade was Sage naruto reacting to the assurances path? I thought you were trying to argue sage mode naruto was significantly faster than base naruto, so if that’s the case then you wouldn’t be able to demonstrate base naruto is relative to her based upon that, this is also excluding the fact Tsunade was spreading her chakra out across the entire village, and was severely weakened.
If you do interpret the sage mode makes you “faster” scan as him being faster in all aspects then the way in which i don’t think is actually prove able, even the amount of speed you gain cannot be significant. The reason it is not significant is because base naruto and sage naruto are both able to react to pain and pain is able to react to both base and sage mode naruto meaning the difference between them is nothing major. which was an argument I used as well.
Kakuzu did not fail to react to base naruto. It wasn’t even base naruto to begin with, it was 9 tails amped naruto, and kakuzu reacted to him multiple times and would have killed him had it not been for kakashi and Yamato saving him.
As for shinra tensei, it won’t do anything to kakuzu, as both base naruto and kakashi can withstand it with their raw durability, something that kakuzu has much higher of than both of them. Kakuzu is durable enough to withstand biju bombs so there’s no way the ap of either the shinra tensei or chibaku tensei would take him out, and pain doesn’t even use chibaku tensei in character against non biju. Kakuzu just murder blitzes all of them. If you want to talk about this further fee free to join my discord.
Hope that clears some stuff up.
@@noodlesyoutuber wow surprised you replied, thank you for that. I actually came here to agree with the previous comment that the tsunade argument doesn't work. Typed a long response but it got deleted when the page refreshed but yea I can concede that. I'll look over this again and I'll get back to you if I have any questions.
Edit: I just recently found your page and saw your separate kakazu powerscale vid so I'll check that out too
@@amjadsiddig2085 awesome man, feel free to join my discord, plenty of discussion goes on in there all the time
Tsunade couldn’t do anything cuz she was going to pass out. Remember pain did the big scale explosion on the village and tsunade gave Katsuyu all her 100 healings chakra ,so that nobody would die from the blast radius.
If she didn’t there would be no survivors. Once she did that she passed out a second after the Asura path tried to bum rush her. Even her subordinate said “she’s lost all her power”. Comparing base Naruto a tsunade who is going to pass out into a coma isn’t really good scaling ,but I see what your saying.
Ok you said Kakazu blitz Naruto clones which is true but don't you think that's what they was suppose to do you said they was there to distract kakazu so maybe the clones wasn't suppose to do anything other than get speed blitz cause again they are a distraction
So pain destroyed konoha, no diffs kakashi, a weakened pain then beats sage naruto, but can’t beat kakazu who lost to a much weaker naruto? Makes no sense... pain beats kakazu 10/10 times
That’s a bad argument that gets addressed in my kakuzu video if you want to learn more about powerscaling I suggest you go watch that or you can join my discord and come chat with me about it
@@noodlesyoutuber kakashi and ino, Choji was pushing kakazu and pain For more people Similar in power and strength
@@davidspearim5552 they weren’t pushing kakazu they were all losing badly and failed to land even one hit. During that entire fight the could get even one clean hit on kakazu other then sneaking up on him. Kakashi did better against pain in hand to hand then he did against kakazu pain just used hacks to overwhelm kakashi.
@@vilekami2142 still pain defeat The entire village and kakuzu he was barely able to defeat kakashi and naruto didn't even need 9 tails to defeat kakuzu
@@davidspearim5552 naruto was using nine tails chakra when he fought kakazu. Plus Kakazu lost two hearts and naruto was outsped and outclassed in every way. He said that just to not get hit he would need three shadow clones to protect himself. Don’t just state shit while ignoring context and don’t lie to me again.The only reason pain was able to do that to the village was because no one had counters to his abilities.But kakazu can counter every single one. Name something u know for sure that kakazu can’t counter.
I don't necessarily agree with you but i do commend that your taking the time to go through comments and make replies as most youtubers don't. I think we can both agree swag wasn't reading messages during the debate but I don't think any judge can say their being fair while messaging a contestant regardless on the points being made and if there's a counter argument. I personally think pain is stronger but I was happy to hear your points
Thanks buddy I agree with your comment 100% besides the pain stronger part
@@noodlesyoutuber haha I think I’d be pretty funny if your whole perspective changed from me saying I think pain is stronger and you just flipped :)
I feel like this stream was noodles getting fluffed by his friends cuz he feels he was wronged even though he set a time limit and overridden the debate
So you think kakuzi would beat alive itachi? Sage mode does increase speed this is shown when jiraya goes into it and blitzes a body of pain before his sandal hit the ground, the rods amp if the user decides hence why the tendo path is stronger than the actual body(sorry forgot his name) when he was alive. Also its why he gets stronger the more the bodies numbers fall. Back to the first point sauske would blitz naruto at that point in the series but he could blitz alive itachi and using scaling there's no way kakuzu would be relative to edo itachi because that itachi is stronger
He has a ranking for akatsuki. If I remember well, he thinks 4- Kakuzu, 5- Pain, and 7- Itachi
@@d_vvSZ lmao this guy is insane. Its pain!!!.
@@dillianwhyte443 I'm pretty sure he uses "one of the deadliest members of the Akatsuki"'s statement (Which would put him in the higher half), and Edo Jinchuriki's feats where they outlast KCM Naruto.
I don't agree with either of these arguments, but there they are.
I feel like Pain was *intended* to be stronger than Kakuzu, but later-game scaling changed that. Like there are a lot of little clues dropped by both the narrator and character statements that make it seem like Kishimoto wanted Pain to be stronger, and that's why its so hard for people to accept that he isn't. Because we had statements like the narrator saying "The most powerful man in the Akatsuki comes forth" or whatever the hype statement was before he invaded the village. Also stuff like Kakashi (i think) saying stuff like "The leader of this S Rank group has to be real strong" or something like that. Basically implying that he's the strongest because he's the leader, and he has to be the one to keep them all in check. All those little seeds that Kishimoto planted to convey the idea that Pain is supposed to be the strongest, making it hard for people to believe he isn't. It'd be like if Madara was a mid after all that build up he had.
But of course, none of that matters because that's not how the story ended up playing out. I was one of them too. I used to think Pain was stronger but after hearing the arguments I just can't really say thats the case anymore. I get how they feel, its weird because Pain just *feels* like he's supposed to be stronger, but the feats really say otherwise.
So youre basically saying like
A man running in marathon for 3 straight days, dark circle under his eyes, limping when walking, swetting a f ton, yet can't tell if he's tired cuz he didn't say so himself.
Naruto literally fainted during his rasenshuriken training, and even in the war ark which is wayy later than kakuzu fight he said himself that he's tired numerous times including when he summoned a f ton of shadow clones to clash into madara's jukaikoutan and ur saying even a weaker version of him just can never be fatigued. R u serious?
He wasn’t limping sweating nor did he have dark circles under his eyes when he fought kakuzu, only sign he had been training were the scratch marks on his clothing. Naruto is a character who was built up the entire series as having insane chakra and insane recovery. He also made and there multiple rasenshuriken and summoned multiple shadow clones during this fight as well. Anytime in the series when someone is weakened they’re stated or shown to be and naruto had neither of those things.
I mean idk how more you can to be delusional to argue that while ignoring the fact that kakuzu who never seen naruto in his life and naruto's state was more than enough to convince kakuzu that naruto is fatigued and even make him say that out loud. my first sentence was a comparison in real life and still that would be similar to what kakuzu was looking at. Better yet naruto literally fell off and fainted away after he landed his last rasenshuriken. Even if you bring that jutsu's risk to the point, tsunade points out that it damaged naruto's arm not his entire fucking body so its clearly not the main reason why naruto fainted after that. EVEN IF ur arguement is true that naruto had recovered before he had arrived it just doesn't make any fucking sense why he fainted after the fight was over. u just can't blind foldedly argue both that he is never getting fatigued and that he had recovered at the same time yet neither is true. because how the fuck would some one even RECOVER if that per son is NEVER GETTING TIRED. in that sense he CLEAR FUCKING WAS fatigued going into the fight against kakuzu.
If youre still gonna argue that kakuzu was wrong by bringing that scratch shenanigan than you shouldn't be arguing that deidara took down isobu only by himself just cuz he said so. like, if you can't take kakuzu's words than you should not be able to take deidara's words. its just contradicts one another. like the over-90-year-old veteran out of veterans couldn't tell if a kid was tired or not but a 19-year-old rookie could tell the absolute truth in regard the entirety of a combat he participates in while being fooled by a top tier uchiha guy along side him? I just really fukin love how you were counter arguing literally every single one of ur own arguments throughout the entire debate
In fact forget all debate and shit and go watch a footage of ultimate ninja storm which is heavily appreciated by Kishimoto himself. It literally has a animated cut scene footage where pein challenges kakuzu and stomps him. even if you don't take it as reference at all just have a rational thought in-character, why would a guy who values money more than literally everything in the world and someone who would kill his own teammate with no guilty mind what so ever even if he or she is slightly against kakuzu's way or will, would even follow pein's command whose will is literally the opposite of his. i think its pretty danm likey that they went into a fight and kakuzu lost unless you argue that pein successfully casted talk no jutsu towards kakuzu which sounds like a total bs. don't even bring KaKuZu CoUlDvE bEeN hOlDiNg BaCk argument because even if he was so did pein would have not to kill kakuzu.
bros applying invalid logic to an anime world lmao
If only there were a world where everyone agreed about NARUTO
Yeah I think noodles lost, swag got more clout so he's right
*BuT iT's pOSsIbLE!*
He lost when he said Asuma was on par with sage Naruto
@@exiledknight3961 no I didn’t say that.
@@noodlesyoutuber No you said “Why is Sage Naruto more powerful than Asuma” giving implication you believe there is some sort of argument that sage Naruto might not be stronger than Asuma or you were joking.
@@exiledknight3961 here's the thing you need to know in debating. Every claim made is an opportunity to trip up your opponent. That's why they always ask for scan becus if this guy says this happen you can say it happened a different way based on what you see.
Just becus he asked swag to prove asuma being strong that doesn't mean that's what he believed
Im pretty sure if you swap the scenario to team 10 and naruto, "not fatigued", with his new rasenshuriken, against pain, they would have lost. He's literally the big bad of the first half of shippuden. Like at this point no one was stronger than Pain except Tobi really
They would have lost for sure, but the reasons that they would have lost are outside of strength and speed. Pain is a much more difficult matchup for naruto because he has to put down 6 different opponents whereas by the time he fought kakuzu he had already absorbed his other hearts making him a solidarity target along with the fact they don’t know of nagato’s existence. Naruto only has to hit kakuzu with one rasenshuriken whereas he has to hit pain with 6, much more difficult to do. Also the Naraka path bringing pains back to life means they’ll have to probably kill some of the pains more than once also increasing the difficulty. The issue with pain fighting kakuzu, is that he is specifically good at fighting multiple people, and most of his abilities are actually strong enough to one shot a path of pain due to them lacking durability. The biggest issue I think pain generates in a fight with kakuzu is his ability to absorb ninjutsu, which although is good, It does not stop kakuzu from overwhelming him with one of his major ninjutsu like we saw when naruto overpowered delta’s absorption in boruto, and also it only really protects himself and maybe one other path of pain, unless the pains decide to make a conga line behind the preta path forcing themself into sitting ducks, then I think they all get blitzed and destroyed. Pain does not have many methods of killing kakuzu and that’s the issue along with a severe lack of physical stats to help him.
Umm I think your forgetting about might guy
@@noodlesyoutuber I agree when it comes to durability for some paths of pain but not all of them especially the deva path also you are forgetting that they work as a team and I'd argue that they are more durable and overall stronger than the naruto clones that fought kakuzu alongside him that is without mentioning the summons of the animal path which leads me to believe if there was ever a fight between pain and kakuzu he will be overwhelmed that without mentioning the naraka path that will just keep respawning the other paths if they happen to get destroyed and I don't see pain allowing kakuzu to get close to the animal nor the naraka path nor kakuzu being able to overcome the Shinra tensei however if and this is a very big if he manages to take out all the paths of pain with the exception of the deva one I don't see in any reality how he can overcome the chibaku tensei it took bee itachi and kcm1 naruto strongest attacks just to destroy one chibaku tensei and kakuzu as much as you love to wank him he isn't at that level
Sry for Bad English it isn't my native language
@@houssemkh5234 don’t attribute reanimated nagatos feats to alive pain they are at different power levels.
Wtf will kakuzu do with chibaku tensei like wtf
Hell tank it with his manly chest
@@noodlesyoutuber yea right nice arguement lol
Wtf do you mean wtf will he do with it. Hell be like thAnks for wasting your chakra and tank it
@@dr.snipahman1831 beast
yo what happened to the seth reaction video
Hey noodles not sure if you check these comments but I’ve been binging your posts while I write my D&D scripts. This debate in particular sticks out to me as most of Swag’s arguments in this debate are identical to Kabuki’s arguments in the Kabuki vs Swag and six debate. Just a shit load of reduction to absurdity arguments, appeal to popularity arguments and appeal to possibility arguments. I used to like swag but after seeing him post out of context clips of this debate (and his debate with parrot) and posting them on his account, I’ve kinda lost respect for him as a scaler and debater.
Just found your channel! Love the debates man
Thanks brother
Following this debate, I am of the belief we can conclude, Kakuzu is deaf...
Lmao honestly
@@noodlesyoutuber can you please give your opinion on who would win in battle between 3 eyed madara and adult sasuke?
@@asadim622 adult sasuke for sure
@@noodlesyoutuber thanks for the reply 🙏
Or maybe he was just getting hit with attacks that are faster then sound
He’s trying to say that curse mark is not as powerful as sage mode
Its not Sage mode slaps on curse mark
Kakazua beats pain = pain loses to base Naruto. If pain beats base Naruto I wonder what the point of Naruto learning sage mode was
0 iq.
Let me play your game, Kakuzu fought Kyuubi amped Naruto and blitzed him, Pain traded blows with Base Naruto which means Kakuzu beats Pain.
@@narutoscaling4599 kakazu never blitzed kyubbi amped Naruto, best I can do is base Naruto blitzed kakazu but pain blitzed sage Naruto. Cope
@@stasonfrost
How can you lie so much in a single comment?
Base Naruto blitzed Kakuzu. - Firstly in their fight naruto is always using kyuubi chakra read the manga and not the anime. 2nd Naruto himself states that Kakuzu is way faster than him not to mention even Choji says "We can't hit him that fast, not this guy" that basically means that everyone in that battlefield is slower than Kakuzu.
Pain never blitzed Sage Naruto, Sage Naruto was destroying Pain, even naruto himself said "Now that I'm in sage mode you can't hurt me". And we even see Pain trade blows with Base Naruto, he trades blows with Base Naruto who is weaker than the one who fought Kakuzu.
Pain only beats Naruto when he loses Sage Mode and he manages to kill that frog guy and throw him against Naruto. That's the only reason he won.
And btw saying cope at the end doesn't make your argument sound more convincing specially when it's basis are just pure lies
@@narutoscaling4599 not even gonna bother reading because I know it's cap. Kakazu couldn't even beat base Naruto. No way he beats pain. Cope
@@stasonfrost Seth fans be like
I don't follow your channel Noodles, but I love Naruto and have watched and rewatched for years, and I'm not even a Naruto debater yet I can prove Kakazu gets stomped by Pain.
I listened to the entire thing end to end and honestly man you diverted and redirected so many times, you constantly talked over him and basically said "well since he doesn't have any points for his speed or durability then I guess I win and if he doesn't want to debate again I win too" even though you didn't let him speak and make points against you when you "BUT IT'S LITERALLY STATED-" like with:
❌Kakazu is the deadliest Akatsuki member (narratively, he's been alive the longest, and therefore very well could have killed many people, it does not necessarily mean he kills with greater ease)
❌Asuma AP and durability= sage Naruto (...no)
❌Shikamaru is Kakashi level speed (was not 100% proven by feat)
❌Base Naruto can box with Pain (Naruto was pressed when he ran out of Sage chakra)
And last but not least, Naruto nearly one shot Kakazu, and yes I know Kakazu was weakened. However, Naruto went in and made short work of him by almost getting him with one attack, then did the exact same thing again and bodied him. Sorry but it's plain that Kakazu got jobbed for the Rasenshuriken.
With Pain, however Naruto went in with five top summons from Mount Myoboku, three full charges of sage chakra, pain being substantially weakened by chaotic shinra tensei as well as having Intel on nearly all of pain's abilities AND STILL ALMOST LOST and only didn't because of Hinata triggering him, which sent him to six tails in which he was putting pressure on Tendo pain. This scaling alone from a stronger, sage mode perfected Naruto is enough to put Kakazu below pain. If THAT isn't enough, I can tell you all of the ways that pain can beat Kakazu in another comment
And I know it's only a Naruto debate, but just the sheer frustration I felt hearing some of these points and knowing that some of the premises were ridiculous left me scratching my head. I haven't any more of your content other than the debate, would love to if you'd acknowledge the argument with feat based rebuttals and not just statements
@@danielharrison5731 I mean for one half of those arguments were not my arguments and the way you tried to debunk them was not well thought out so if you’d like I’d be more than willing to talk with you in my server to convince you
@@noodlesyoutuber pls talk to me in a server because there is literally 0% chance Kakuzu walks away from this alive.
@@mason.mitchell0731 discord is open join anytime
Swag still never got to argue his sides of why pain is better or would beat kakazu
Yeah wish he would finish the debate lol
@@noodlesyoutuber you mean after you did a whole smear campaign on him and said outlandish claims on his name? Yah no I wouldn’t do a part two with you either 😂😂
@@tony4410 for one, I have never said anything bad about swagkage outside of the debate nor have I ever insulted anything other than his ego and his content. So you’re completely wrong
@@noodlesyoutuber the video we are both commenting on rn is litteraly a whole video of you talkin crazy about him wtf are you even talkin about 😂😂
@@tony4410 it’s literally just a video of me criticizing his arguments and ego like I just said which is not smearing him, it’s facts
18:30 I think what swag was referring to here was if sasuke in curse mark mode punched an object that can only be affected by senjutsu like truth seeking orb shield, it wouldn’t do any damage to it.. tbh it sounds like head cannon though because you cant really prove or disprove that theory, I mean that’s like trying to say narutos fist can do damage to that same object but again it’s really hard to prove that
You dint let swag do his speed scaling for nagato which he was gonna compare to kcm 1 naruto. Slimy as ever I see
This came up on my recommended but plz tell me this is satire and you don't actually believe Kakazu can beat Pain. Tendo Pain alone beat Kakazu in Storm Revolution. It's not confirmed that the cutscenes in the game are canon other than Generations but i feel like that should've been mentioned. But i should also watch part 1 to see if it was mentioned there
We agreed to the debate being manga and databook only, so no video games and no it’s not satire, you can watch my kakuzu video if you don’t believe me
Wtf did you just down play swag’s content bruh smh you are tripping
Swag’s content is boring ass run of the mill naruto drivel
@@noodlesyoutuber Your content is headcannon fanboying bullshit.
@@frankwalker4428 no it’s fax
I like swag but I wish he was more open minded about this tupe of scaling. He doesn't even have to agree.
Completely agree with you.
Well why be open minded when you're right? Pain is literally stated "the strongest akatsuki member"
I came to this video to make sure I wasn’t subscribed to angry noodle bro 😂
Noodles can I please get a link to the discord
It’s in the description but here discord.gg/YEsnfxra
I always thought kakazu was downplayed he was smoking naruto regardless if he was exhausted or not I seriously thought naruto was going to lose the way kakazu was blitzing him not to mention as you say his attack potential is bonkers and I'm obviously a fan of swag but I did feel your argument and premise was stronger
Thank you
You won this. too many die hard fans. I watch swag all time and even I gotta say there's so many things he said that puts him on lock and he just backs out of it I don't like the way he handled this debate. U made a fool outta this guy and almost nobody wants to admit it just scrolling literally first few comments. This is mad take my sub NOW!!!!
So you think Kakazu would beat Alive Itach??? Fool
@@brooksy385 No one said that, doesn't matter if Kakuzu can do that, the point is Noodles did better than swag in this debate.
Remembering how this man has debated for a long time yet still said sage more naruto isn’t faster.
I did say he was faster I just said it wasn’t significant, like both base naruto and sage naruto are able to react to tendo and tendo is able to react to both sage and base naruto as well, so yeah I do think I was right in my assessment
@@noodlesyoutuber no you said naruto only gets more reaction time and said most people confused what sage mode actually does
@@yasserjimenez8070 I did say it enhanced his reaction speed but that’s what I’m talking about, there is no significant gain in actual movement or combat speed
@@noodlesyoutuberbro you just said it again. You said no movement speed and you mean to tell me you still don’t know that it enhances his travel speed? Naruto even steps and kills a pain that was going to attack tsunade before she could react. And then she saw the resemblance of minato and jiraiya that was clearly meant to show a speed amp and have you forgotten the feat with jiraiya in which he outruns the sandal? It’s pretty clear it’s trying to show the speed of sage mode and this is without regarding that it’s an imperfect sage mode
@@yasserjimenez8070 I didn’t say “no movement speed” I said no “significant movement or combat speed” and the justification for it you for some reason ignored, tendo was able to react to both base and sage naruto and both base and sage reacted to him in the part where naruto kicks tendo really hard and sends him flying. This means that there is not a significant gain as they were already relative before. The point at which naruto blitzes the path of pain attacking Tsunade, there were more paths of pain up meaning that they were all weaker as the chakra from nagato is split more ways between them. I don’t remember sandal “scene” but keep in mind that I’ve only read the manga, and this debate was based in the manga so anime was not used to make the arguments, but if it is in the manga send it to me and I’ll look it over
Yo noodles reach out to me anytime and I'll debate you on this. Pain no diffs. Sorry about your luck bro and have a nice day
My luck is fine lol but sure if you wanna debate it click the link in the description of any of my videos and join my discord
@@noodlesyoutuber sounds good man. You make some good points on Kakazu, but I feel like you and Seth both bully too much. When debating, it's best to stick to facts, stay away from getting emotional, and not try to get other people mad by talking crap. I'm just saying man.
@@BryanatGameStop if you’ve ever watched my aero debate or most of my debates in general I do try to stay away from emotional outbursts and stick to facts. Obviously I’m not perfect with it but for the most part I’m pretty good about keeping composed, but I can see where you’re coming from.
@@noodlesyoutuber that's fair man. I joined the discord and looking forward to further discussions!
Definitely "won" the debate but by the scaling used kakazu loses to heavy sasuke which kinda kills the whole beating pain argument xD
Kakuzu snaps hebi sasuke like a toothpick
Why do people that call hebi sasuke „heavy sasuke“ even comment on a video like that?
I'm so sick of you fanboys sucking off Swag....Noodles made better use of his limited time to explore Kakuzu's feats and the points he made were VALID. Swag never made points that backed his claims and he made many contradicting statements on multiple occasions. Most of you were saying that Noodles didn't give Swag time to make his points, but that's only because Swag was constantly asking Noodles "Why" in an effort to understand feats or knowledge of something he should already know coming into the debate in the first place. Noodles wins the debate not only due to better points and arguments but he wins based on the lack of knowledge Swag displayed in this curb stomp...I meant "debate"
Wow this whole comment is trash
U see in the video swag trying to make his points even mentions how he’s gonna scale pain to kcm 1 naruto and immediately noodles runs saying he got work . The judges even said why did you even set it up like this and now if you knew u where limited and had to do something u knew days ahead. that’s why he wanted to go first and even told swag in the beginning that he’ll let him do his scaling later. Swag tried to keep going but coward ran
@@user-kr9cg5vc84 once again someone who displays a lack of knowledge...dude think what you want idc
@@proastropath7862 nah show this Knowledge you got since u say I got non
He ran that’s the truth
He mentions the scaling he was gonna show in his conclusion
Quit defending someone who tries to say he won even tho he ran
I'm not defending him 🤷♂️ I'm sure you don't want to debate or anything right? Pick a character and I will then we can go from there otherwise ✌️
@@proastropath7862 why?
Can’t defend noodles so u looking for a w somewhere else
That’s so dumb too if I pick one you’ll just pick one that obviously stomps
Try again fodder
It's impressive that you were essentially set up and still won
Yo that profile picture is so 🔥 where did you get it from
@@sankeerthkoshy61 ty kinda forgot I had it for so long xd
Dominated too.
So far in my viewing, Swag's points are so inconsequential, that even if he can somehow prove his assertions to be true, it still doesn't affect the the Kakuzu vs Pain debate enough to turn the tide in Pain's favor
No one won noodles just kept talking over swag so swag couldn't really say anything I don't necessarily call myself a fan of either one I watched few swag videos and a few of noodles videos I see points on each side but you can't accurately scale fake characters you just can't yes you can say this that but it's all assumptions
you're a good debater but you do the thing that most good debaters do when they're losing ground, circling back on statements constantly and trying to make someone slip up by rephrasing info already stated. you also tend to disregard relevant info to the topic when it doesnt fit the point you're trying to make at that specific moment. kudos to dying on this rock though lmao
No, this debate had a lot of restatements due to swag trying to push multiple points at once a lot, I don’t think I lost ground on basically any point, the repetition aspect also came with Swag restating his points and creating ad nausem arguments as well. And no I didn’t disregard any relevant information to the topic, I literally addressed every one of swags arguments, so you actually can’t say I have confirmation bias. The only argument you could maybe say I did that with was the sage mode point when he brought up the sage mode increases speed scan and I argued that it increased reaction speed, which he didn’t refute, so even on that one argument I made a rebuttal.
@@noodlesyoutuber im just pointing out what i heard. maybe it was in the way you presented your rebuttals that needed work then, because it felt as if you were on the back foot in quite a few instances, regardless of who was in the right, thats just how it landed for a non biased viewer. on a side note: that sage mode argument upset me and idk why he didnt push back (we both know sage mode bolsters all physical attributes speed, stamina, reflexes and strength!)
@@mr.penguin4614 I don’t think it significantly boosts your actual speed due to both base naruto and sage naruto being able to react to pain and pain being able to react to both sage and base as well. It just means the difference between the two is negligible. But I think the way I presented it sounds fine, it just might not be as convincing an average viewer, but I’m not really worried about being convincing, just having strong arguments
@@noodlesyoutuber do you take into consideration the motivations of characters during the fight? at many points it seems like pain is trying to break naruto's will more so than just kill him and at the same time naruto is trying to prove to pain that his philosophy is flawed to pretty much no avail. is that something worth considering or is that too speculative? i know authors intent is a pretty muddled area for debates, im just curious if it holds value without being explicitly stated as such. like when KCM naruto is "fighting" edo itatchi for example, the intent is obviously not to kill even if not stated. in contrast, in the case of pain they are obviously trying to kill one another but during certain points throughout the fight, the physical battle is not the focus of either character. does that have any effect on your opinion or not at all? also i appreciate that you reply to your comments.
@@mr.penguin4614 yeah sometimes a characters motivations or intent is made clear and it can have an effect on the battle, so in the case of naruto and pain, I agree that they’re not trying to kill racha other, naruto is simply trying to destroy the paths of pain, and nagato is also trying to capture naruto.
At least Swag didn’t ask stupid questions like "Why is Sage Mode Naruto stronger than Asuma?" LOL.
🍜 is a TH-camr who is wallowing in the ocean of self-deception.
Pain destroyed Kakashi in ONE episode in the anime. Kakuzu FAILS MISERABLY to do that in like THREE TO FOUR episodes in the anime. But somehow, Kakuzu "one-shots" the paths of Pain. Laugh my head off.
Dude post the Seth the programmer exposed video
Ngl, I'd low key join the discord, just to learn how to debate better with my friends and stuff. Plus I wanna win arguments that seem absurd to them like Haku beating Pain
We’ll hop in the discord
Alright sure, where's a link?
@@kurocloud9771 discord.gg/FATEgjJh
Didn't you say he's annoying and insult him in part 1 fkn hypocrite
I lowkey stay away from debating because I'm not a power scaler and I'm not that much as a manga reader and some dudes be taking this debating shii serious af. But I like to listening to anime debates tho.
Well it's not hard to scale see what pain and kakazu did and which one do you think did more to me pain did no doubt kakazu went toe to toe with Kakashi yes Kakazu finally got the advantage over Kakashi but Kakashi didn't have help with Kakazu like he did with pain and Kakashi only took out 2 pains I think I can't remember honestly but Kakashi had choji and choza or however his dad name is spelt
I think both are correct on some points and completely wrong on others but that’s the problem with people that scale.
These debates are so obnoxious and incoherent a lot of the times, it's nice to have you pause it and explain your arguement and why swag isn't making sense. Honestly tho swag is terrible at debating and reasoning, even in his own vs videos
i mean like, didn't kakashi almost kill Pain (deva path) if it wasnt for the other Path stepping in. I don't see why Kakuzu couldn't kill Deva Path pain he has alot of firepower at his disposal plus those tendrils that come out of his body. I been on forums where peeps do admit kakuzu could beat pain if he doesn't use planetary devastation.
If your going to exclude Pain's other bodies then you have to exclude all of Kakuzu's hearts. Otherwise its a six vs. five in Pain's favor.
@@okami7847 kakazu has clones and pain isn’t shown to so kakazu can literally just decide to have the number advantage whenever he wants.
tthis guy forces his voice so hard trynna make it deaper
Yo a 3h stream rewatching the debate? Let it go bruh😂 U lost
Debate happened months ago as did this video. Why don’t you try and let it go? and debate breakdowns are my thing anyway so of course I’m gonna make a breakdown on it, only reason it ended up 3 hours was because there were many convoluted points that needed some pretty in depth explanation nothing more.
@@noodlesyoutuber Wait why does it matter when this debate happened😂? I just recently watched the debate and both of yall said what yall needed to say. Why dont I try and let it go??? Wtf HAHAHHAHAHAH. U lost, just accept it. Streaming for 3h reacting to it comes off as lame n tryhard. Give it up
@@fiidisksdiduui1898 the time of the debate matters because usually when an incident occurs it’s considered okay to talk about it then because it’s relevant but if you’re still talking about it months later when it’s not relevant it starts to set in that the incident has become a burden on your mind. It is at this point that “letting it go” is beneficial to you because you will have removed that burden on your mind and stop letting it affect your conversation. So yes commenting on a debate months after it happened does make it seem ironic that you are asking me to let it go when I never actively talk about it unless brought up to me. Even if you saw the debate recently you still have 0 room to say “I should” let it go considering you have no idea if this is even thought about passively or actively anymore. You basically are just jumping straight to the conclusion that “because I made a 3 hour breakdown” of the debate that means I have yet to let it go when I’m reality I make debate breakdown videos and very in depth researched content as it is anyway and this video just happened to be longer because I was on stream and wanted to address all of the points. Wasn’t about spite or anything like that only about knowledge and views. Also saying “You lost xd” does not mean I lost so unless you have a reason why I lost that statement is just as valueless as the comments you’ve posted so far.
@@noodlesyoutuber Oh man I really struck a nerve😭 Man wrote a whole essay on me, u should just do a stream responding to me at this point LMAOOOOO. You say I'm still talking abt the debate months later, assuming I knew abt the debate when ut first happened. Im not sure ur reading my responses properly buddy, I said I JUST watched and stumbled across the debate recently🤦🏿♂️ And nothing tells me that uve let it go and moved on 3 months later, considering how defensive u are🤷🏿♂️ If u did then good for u my guy. Also, I dont need to go into reasons on why u lost, not everybody has the tike to just casually type out a whole essay replay like u but im sure uve looked at the comments and general consesus is, u lost... HAHAHAHHHAH.
@@fiidisksdiduui1898 “You say I’m still talking about the debate months later”
No, nowhere in my comment did I say this, I said that it seemed ironic that you would tell me to let it go when the debate happened months ago and you’re commenting about it now, and I went on to elaborate that if you had just recently stumbled across the debate then you’re still making baseless assumptions about whether or not I have moved on or not. Truth is you have no idea if I have so you’re basically just showing me that you’ve failed to remove swags hotdog from your throat.
“Not sure you read the response properly buddy”
Nope literally addressed every important aspect of your comment and considering you just straw manned and misrepresented me within the first 2 sentences of yours, it shows you didn’t read the original comment properly.
“Nothing tells me that uve let it go and moved on 3 months later”
This doesn’t justify your original position or any position for that matter. Like this same argument could be applied to tons of different arguments such as “Nothing tells me you don’t like taking swag’s sausage in your butt” therefore it’s true. The issue with this is obvious. Just because I lack the evidence for one side of a proposition to be true does not mean the negation is correct. Absence of evidence does not affirm anything.
For clarification yes I have moved on, I don’t talk about it to anyone unless brought up to me usually in these comments.
“Also I don’t need to go into reasons why you lost, I don’t have the time to type out essay’s like you”
Yeah that’s fine I never said you were obligated to give reason, all I said was that your position is valueless if you don’t, so sure you can have a valueless position it won’t bother me don’t worry.
“The general consensus is that you lost”
This is actually the case for multiple reasons. For starters and the most obvious, swag has a million subs, I have 2000 so obviously more people will more likely agree with swag just from being apart of his fan base alone. The second is I am taking an extremely unpopular position which opens room for character bias, and people liking pain more than kakuzu which will lead to many people not agreeing with me. For 3 many of the arguments I make can be pretty complex so it’s not easy as “pain big strong he beat kakuzu” type of arguments that swag and most people arguing for pain make.
These reasons all explain why many people would side with swag without actually addressing the validity and soundness of the arguments given, so just saying “more people think swag won” does not actually show or prove that swag won, only analyzing arguments themselves can do that. This is a classic case of an appeal to popularity as well which is a fallacy that dictates “more people believe this therefore it’s true.” The most obvious example of why this is not necessarily the case is people believing in flat earth back in the 1600 and 1700’s. Or people believing the earth was the center of the universe. Even though all these people believed it Galileo still proved them wrong. Anyway though unless you have some other stupid reply for me to dunk on, I’m gonna go back to watching my anime and jerking off, later
Yo noodles, you missed a great opportunity in your debate with swagkage. When he started giving you Six’s argument about the MS he said that sasuke was stronger because of the MS in the 5 kage summit.
You should’ve brought up his own explanation/seths explanation they use in their videos.
That the emotional state of the MS user is what makes their power flair up. He and Seth bring up Sakura and tobirama’s statements that the emotions of the MS user created special chakra in their brain behind their eyes and that specifically makes them stronger.
Swag said sasuke stronger in the 5 kage summit BECAUSE of the Ms. it was acctually because he was about to kill the kage and danzo. Swag brought up that karin says sasuke’s chakra is flaring up and “colder” or something. She was noticing him getting stronger because of his emotions, not an MS amp.
He asked you in your debate about me sasuke vs bee, then ms sasuke vs 5 kage and cites the mangekyo as the reason why, and pretended he didn’t make explicit videos citing as the emotions of them depressed uchiha as WHY they get crazy amps.
That would have been a really dirty slam dunk on him but I don’t watch his videos lol
@@noodlesyoutuber yea that would’ve been a really good debunk for him/Six’s argument. Seth kinda alludes to it in his most recent itachi video, about their emotions amping them. I was praying you’d drop that on them cause Swag has been referencing this for ages
Just a good piece of scaling for future use. Keep up the good work
@@noodlesyoutuber just watched your debate with king bullet. Him, six and swagkage all hit you with the kage summit sasuke MS amp saying it amps inherently etc. which I brought up to you on this thread.
You need to be on point with that tobirama/Sakura statement saying the emotions of the MS amp the user by creating special chakra, but it only happens in specific moments of sorrow, grief, anger, sadness etc. sasuke getting close to killing danzo at the summit and avenging Itachi are why he was stronger at 5 kage. NOT because the MS always just massively amps you.
Does swag debate alot?
Not often
@@vipo9083 ok just checking
Kakashi was fast enough to counter him which is a speed feat so yeah if Kakashi could keep up with him I'm sure Naruto can to which to be fair idk who was stronger here Kakashi or Naruto I think Kakashi cause he was going toe to toe with both for awhile and Kakashi also stated he could beat Kakazu
I clicked on part 2 just to dislike, here you go.
Don’t know if you saw my reply but let me know your thoughts thanks
I kinda feel like the part of swag bringing up Kakazu choosing the wrong shadow clone to downplay kakazu's intelligence is kinda redundant.
Like kakazu attacked the one that had a rasenshuriken. That's not a dumb thing to do lmao.
Both surfbone and noodles in sync😭1:26:23
Noodles I listen on six page and that was an amazing debate! I am gonna have to give you the W but Swage still came for your Head lol
Swag actually got help from six Seth and jaja and all of whom are considered the best in the community
@@noodlesyoutuber well Noodles I been watching your debates for years and I never seen you lose lol even if I seen you debating multiple who constantly get involved I haven’t seen you take a L. And my favorite debates you have beaten Like Swag and Jade
@@noodlesyoutuber have you ever debated Parrot?
@@danzellbriggs117 yeah I have debated parrot
Pain wins
Goku wins
How did he loose this debate 🤦♂️
No one loose the debate he certainly did lose the debate tho
Losing to Noodles in a debate is not an Anti-feat to swag
@@AskinNukkLeVarr swag didn’t lose tf
Swag didn’t lose tf
@@Me-jf3ik he definitely did 😐
Ah yes, if Choji says it, then it must be true! Should we take everything Hashirama says as fact, too? Minato sure is trash at Sage mode, right?
Using what someone says as an inscrutable fact is going to get you laughed at
There are two forms of evidence when power scaling, statements and feats. Feats are the stronger of the two pieces of evidence, but that does not invalidate statements. Yes statements are fallible but that doesn’t invalidate them entirely. There’s a reason court rooms and judges accept eyewitness testimony as evidence even if it’s not strong evidence. And the only way you’d be able to say choji’s statement is wrong in this instance is if he’s lying which he has absolutely no reason to do and doesn’t act like that in character. So yeah I do think the statement stands
@@noodlesyoutuber well I don't believe he's intentionally lying, but he's not exactly a rocket surgeon, even according to the data books, so his statements are less than reliable, imo. I respect your explanation tho, and agree generally, just not in this instance
@@devilsadvocate3364 it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to see two people run and say who is faster even dumb people can do that.
noodle won no dif
You mean like how Pain would one-shot Kakuzu... like he did Konoha?
Facts though, swag was using double standards in this debate.
Swag couldn’t argue any of noodles points lol, noodles stomps low diff while 1v 3. I still think pain wins but solid points
I think pain was as well, and I agree noodles definitely argued better than swag.
lol nah man Pain win
He one shot the fodder Kakuzu dude is literally made out of fodder.
@@colemacgrath3755 you know pain can't even damage sage naruto right?
Noodles definitely won this, swag was making fallacies throughout the entire debate.
Swag didn't ask stupid questions like "Why is Sage Naruto stronger than Asuma?"
You can weep all you like, but Swag has got his head in the right place.
@@thesupercat3611 Swag did appeal to ignorance in this very debate via saying “you can’t prove that the genjutsu would effect pain” in response to noodles saying “pain has never shown resistance to this level of genjutsu” as well as swag hardly addressing noodles main arguments, just being incredulous towards them, so saying he has the right head is stretching it. That asuma question also isn’t stupid because if two characters have no scaling to each other and one of them doesn’t have anti feats, then neither can be used as an anti feat to get another character below them, it’s basic scaling.
@@princelamar1735 Actually, we're talking about "Kakuzu vs. Pain" not the recent "Itachi vs. Pain" debate that they had on Six's channel. So, I don’t see how "genjutsu resistance" comes into the picture, it's not like Kakuzu has any Genjutsu abilities.
No, you're wrong. Noodles did ask a LOT of stupid questions and a lot of his arguments were just blatantly dumb. As for the Asuma question, yes, it is EXTREMELY stupid.
Two characters don’t need to have any scaling to each other before we can reasonably determine who is stronger. Or are you telling me now that we honestly don't know who is stronger between Asuma and Sage Mode Naruto?
Things don't have to go through a scaling before we arrive at a reasonable conclusion. That's why we have common sense. Based on the logic you're using I too should be able to ask "Why or how is Juubidara stronger than Asuma?" After all, there's no opponent that both of them share.
Or can you scale Kakuzu above Shizune? I honestly don’t know who's stronger since there are no opponents that connect them.
A lot of Noodles' scalings are also VERY erroneous and VERY debunkable. Saying Kakuzu scales to KCM 1 Naruto via the Yugito scaling is one of them. Based on that logic, I would be equally correct if I said "Deidara scales to alive blind Madara because Deidara was able to react to Shukaku's arms in his fight against Gaara, and that same Shukaku blitzed Madara in the War arc."
You see how dumb Noodles' scalings are. It's really unfortunate that he actually has this many supporters. And if you're one of them, then you too are delusional.
@@thesupercat3611 The reason the “genjutsu resistance” comes into this picture is because you were saying swag had the right head on his soldiers so I used that as an example to explain why he infact doesn’t.
You can believe that his arguments are dumb from your pov, but his arguments are consistent with the logic of power scaling and actually make sense when you think about it from that leanse.
On the surface you are correct. Two characters do not need to scale to each other in order to say who is stronger based on a difference of feats. However, This is not what I was arguing against though. What I said in my previous comment (in more detail) was essentially if character A and B have no scaling relations to each other, and there’s an extra character named character C who has impressive feats, then neither character A or B can be used as anti feats against C, in order to say C scales below either one of them. You can’t use C not killing A to say C would lose to B, and you can’t use C not killing B to say C would lose to A. If Anything, A or B doing well against C would be a feat for them rather then an anti feat for C. That’s my argument in more detail. This applies to the Asuma question because swag was using asuma as an anti feat for kakazu who has good feats, however since asuma has no scaling relations to sage naruto then that would be a feat for asuma rather then an anti feat for kakazu. That’s the role the asuma question plays from a power scaling perspective.
So while I agree with your reasoning (in the sense that we can say juubidara > asuma or things like that based on a difference of feats alone) the issue is what your talking about is not exactly what is happening with the asuma question as I hopefully laid out.
How exactly does your deidera example prove the yugito scaling is dumb? Kakazu reacted to yugito, that is a feat, and we do go by feats in scaling. Also, If you’ve seen noodles other videos as well you should know that he uses the databooks to point out that the akatsuki are stated to be stronger then jinchuriki, so noodles scaling kakazu over yugito and kcm1 naruto is not out there as even material from the author believes he’s at that level.
You believing his scalings is dumb doesn’t make it dumb from a power scaling perspective, which is what noodles goes by. Noodles has supporters because he is one of the best power scalers in the community. You can call me delusional however you only claim that due to you being ignorant and not willing to acknowledge points that exist outside of your beliefs, so I don’t really care what you think. It’s a shame swag has supporters since he’s willing to be dishonest and use appeal to ignorance as I pointed earlier for pain to resist genjutsu, something that is against the scaling perspective, and is against your own very reasoning for being against the asuma question because swag outright said you can’t scale itachis genjutsu over pain if it has not been shown to effect him, that is outright no different from your issue with “why is sage naruto stronger then asuma”. Apply your own standards against noodles to swag as well before you want to claim he has a good head on his soldiers, unless you want to be a hypocrite in which case you would be just as delusional as you claim me.
@@princelamar1735 I can see that this is beginning to get tense, and truth is that I do not want this to be anymore uncivil than it already is. I'm the one who spoke harshly first, so my apologies for calling you "delusional." Shouldn't have lost my temper too easily like that. Won't happen again.
It's just that personally, to me, (I don’t want to use the "appeal to popularity" tactic. I want to give MY own honest thoughts on the topic instead of just going with the "most people in the community say Pain wins, therefore he wins" way of thinking) for a person to be able to reach the conclusion that Kakuzu beats Pain, they deliberately have to wriggle their way through some rather shaky/questionable means of scaling, be hypocritical, and even just patently dishonest with themself.