Jaron Lanier - Is Consciousness an Illusion?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- Is consciousness something special in the universe, its own category, irreducible to physical laws, a carrier of meaning and purpose? Or is consciousness a mere artifact of the brain, a by-product of evolution, a superstition exaggerated by human misperception? If you think or hope consciousness is special, then you should surely be a skeptic.
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Jaron Zepel Lanier is an American computer scientist, best known for popularizing the term virtual reality (VR).
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Closer to Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
Consciousness Paradox: For an illusion of consciousness to exist, something must have the illusion, and that something must be conscious.
No, something can just emerge, without emerging on something. You are not considering concepts like singularity, irreducibility..
@@maziusclavo8021 Do you mean that emergence is not from something? Give an example of that type of emergence, emergence from nothing.
We integrate a mental model of the illusion in our consciousness, but this is not the basis of the consciousness, but this mode of the illusion emerge while the during our development as a child. Inside of our mental models, consciousness is real, like also the model of gods or ghosts are real, but from outsider, this are illusions.
@@thomashartl8073 Think about, "we integrate a mental model of the illusion...". That doesn't ring true to me. Consciousness is quite real and is not an illusion to the conscious person nor to other people.
@@georgegrubbs2966 Consciousness is real in the context of our perception and our language, but like the most other perception s, the outside reality in the nature can be complet different. Eg. in nature, colors are simple some frequencies of electromagnetic waves. So colors are real in our perception, but not in nature.
Now this is progress. New generation of great minds treat science and reality with more humility and acknowledging the fact that we still don’t know that much.
“We just don’t have the tools to do anything but wonder”. Wisest words spoken in this clip.
Wrong. 🐸 You can know.
@@michaelg1569 let me guess? Drugs?
Breathing methods, meditation and focus of the imagination are the tools, and training the mind to be still. Spiritual sciences have many answers, like the Kybalion and Dolores Cannon
Actually we do, but it's not in our minds.
The deeply unconscious insecurity that goes along w the western habit of identifying rigidly as “scientist,” only masks 🎭 a cultural ego that is deeply at odds with wonder and mystery 🌎💯🤷🏾♂️
Consciousness is a prerequisite to having illusions.
Partially but subject to verification
@@willrose5424 Verification implies a subject/object relationship aka subjective consciousness.
Sleep Walking? Dissociative amnesia? Unconscious illusions?
@@josedanielherrera7115 Consciousness is needed to label these states. Taxonomy requires consciousness.
@@Samsara_is_dukkha The states mentioned above themselves require consciousness? I don't know what taxonomy has to do with being in those states. Taxonomy just like all thoughts, are abstractions that assist in explaining the phenomena, they are not THE phenomena. Maybe we are talking about two different things.
If consciousness is an illusion then so is everything else. Do people really deny the existence of their own experience? Crazy
I love how we can share intellectual experiences with other people, trusting 100% in what we are saying… and even this way keep in mind that always will have people who thinks TOTTALY different from us and that’s ok!
That gives me confort.
Because I really think that this doesn’t make any sense 😂😂😂
I’ve been looking back lately, and when I was ~12 I was kind of awkward. Sounds so pathetic 25 years later 😂 but I remember thinking how I wish I could swap places with a ‘cool kid’ for a day. And I vividly remember often pondering something approaching: if we swapped bodies and minds (confidence, being funny, whatever), at what point would that no longer be ‘me’ that swapped? And I would reduce until I reached the conclusion that it was a futile exercise; I could never find where to draw the line.
Also as a young child, and even today, my mind has always had trouble with true nothing. I would sit and try to truly “feel” the distinction between empty space and true nothing, again reducing until my brain broke 😂
Of course back then I didn’t know anything about consciousness, but I did this often and it has always been fascinating to me to look back and realize how much our minds ponder big questions and concepts, even at a young age.
Great words and shows how many of us have Deeper ponderings
Have you read about abhava?
I’ve had the same thoughts. I was thinking about how harshly people are condemned in this world, as if a person is the ultimate decider of their behavior. I feel like people look down on me when I don’t embrace their view that free will is not ultimate. If there’s one thing Psychology has taught me, it’s that humans have more limitations than may be originally presumed. There are many blind spots. Exercising the thought you posited, if two people were reduced down to nothing into each others consciousnesses’ in a freaky Friday type situation, what stuff would remain for each of them?
@@11235but I think about this concept a lot. It’s mind boggling that we are able to communicate and understand each other to a certain extent
@@11235but I didn’t even see your other comment for some reason. I don’t necessarily think we’re entirely absent of free will. I feel like it’s a mixture of things. If we’re just chemical soup then it doesn’t matter who I am because the definition of free will can likely change quite largely through different viewpoints. Is it the ability to make a decision opposite of tendency at any given moment? Still, I can’t help but think that when you’re healthy and bright in mood you have a higher level of free will, if you will. Does external influence include indirect influence, such as jumpstarting the part of the mind that has to do with inhibition?
I find debates around consciousness so very strange indeed. To hear things like “we can’t prove consciousness” or “do you believe in consciousness?”, “let’s leave consciousness behind”. What?? What are you talking about? It’s like the most basic, fundamental thing we can prove, experience and conceive of. It’s literally what we are!!!
Consciousness is clearly not an illusion. Matter, on the other hand; that's a different story.
Matter matters and materializes things.
Consciousness is the only reality we can be sure of. So utterly obvious and fundamental to the appearance of everything that appears within it and is made of it. Consciousness can’t be found- it’s the very thing that’s looking. The mind creates the illusion of separation, and like a dream it’s real but it’s only an appearance, an illusion, and the illusion is the cause of all of our suffering. Deep down we know there’s no separation, it just doesn’t feel like it, and that’s why we feel negative emotions. They’re a drive for the illusory character to see through the illusion
HOW CONSCIOUNESS CREATES REALITY?
If God is Reality
And if Reality Is Consciousness
Then God Is Consciousness
I Think therefore I Am God Consciousness
The whole universe is one reality which is pure consciousness.
Pure consciousness is absolute existence.
God makes things through the direct act of becoming the things which He creates. In the beginning the One differentiated into the many. The One entered into the many and became the Self of each. The being within everything is the One. When you merge with this nonlocal Self, you become one with the Self of all that exists. The One is the Higher Self of all. You are the One.
The God Spirit In Me Is The Same God Spirit In You, And The Spirit Of All Beings. Enlightenment Is The realization That You Are All Part Of The Universal Spirit Of All That Exists, Which Is GOD.
Each of us is the universal spirit projecting a particular point of view.
My Self is inseparable from all that exists, just as your self is inseparable from all that exists.
You are an aspect of Infinite Intelligence, and Infinite Intelligence is the source of all that exists. Therefore you are the source of all that exists and you create your own experience. Everything is possible because everything exists within you. The same unbounded potential of the Infinite Spirit also resides in each and every one of us.
Everything in the universe is consciousness. Space and time in all planes of reality are only projections within universal consciousness. There really is no here or there for everything is at one place where Mind is. Mind does not move at all. Mind simply is (Not to be confused with the brain). Mind is everywhere yet nowhere. Mind is nowhere but Here, Now. We are all existing together as a singularity in one place and time. Everything is one, Here and Now.
Your soul is the reflection of all souls. You are the Other. Without the other, you would not exist. You are defined by your relationships with others. You would need to describe the whole universe in order to define a single person. Therefore every single person is the whole universe. Your soul is both personal and universal at the same time. Everyone is a reflection of yourself. You are in a hall of mirrors where every reflection of yourself appears different. Others you admire reflect the qualities you most cherish in yourself. Others you detest reflect the qualities you most deny in yourself. Each person you see is a different version of you.
The outer world is a mirror of yourself at any place and time. If you want to know the state of your personal consciousness, just look around and see what is happening to you. If you want to know the state of the collective consciousness, just look around at what is happening in the world. Your personal reality is synchronistically orchestrated by your sense of Self at all times. If a critical mass of people expressed their higher selves, they would cause a transformation in collective consciousness and the world reality. Every time a person rises in personal consciousness, he moves the state of the world towards a higher one than before.
TRANSCENDENT WORLD: You are comfortable here when you can experience all possibilities. Your awareness is open. You are connected to the source. Your consciousness is merged with the mind of God.
SUBTLE WORLD: You are comfortable here when you can hold on to your vision. You trust yourself to follow where the mind goes. You aren't bound up in resistance, objections, skepticism, and rigid beliefs. Inspiration occurs as a normal part of your existence.
MATERIAL WORLD: You are comfortable with your personal reality. You take responsibility for it. You read the world as a reflection of who you are and what is happening "in here." As the reflection shifts and changes, you track the changes occurring inside yourself.
If a white man was created by God,
And if a black man was created by God,
Black and white men are equal before God.
If God is reality,
And if reality is consciousness,
Then God is consciousness
The Need to Create, Discover, and Explore.
God becomes a creative source. He gave us our birthright of curiosity. He remains unknowable, but he unfolds one secret after another in creation. At the far edge of the universe, the unknown is a challenge and a source of wonder. God wants us not to worship but to evolve. Our role is to discover and explore. Nature exists to provide endless mysteries that challenge our intelligence - there is always more to discover.
This is your God if you live to explore and be creative, if you feel happiest confronting the unknown, if you have total confidence that nature can be unraveled, including human nature, as long as we keep questioning and never settle for fixed, preordained truth.
God becomes pure wonder. After reason has reached the limits of understanding, the mystery remains. Sages, saints, and the divinely inspired have penetrated it. They have felt a divine presence that transcends everyday life. Materialism is an illusion. Creation was fashioned in two layers, the visible and the invisible. Miracles become real when everything is a miracle. To reach God, one must accept the reality of invisible things. Nature is a mask for the divine.
This is your God if you are a spiritual seeker. You want to know what lies behind the mask of materialism, to find the source of healing, to experience peace, and to be in direct contact with a divine presence.
Unity, the State Beyond All Needs.
God becomes One. There is complete fulfillment because you have reached the goal of seeking. You experience the divine everywhere. The last hint of separation has vanished. You have no need to divide saint from sinner, because God imbues everything. In this state, you don't know the truth; you become it. The universe and every event in it are expressions of a single underlying Being, which is pure awareness, pure intelligence, and pure creativity. Nature is the outward form that consciousness takes as it unfolds in time and space.
This is your God if you feel totally connected to your soul and your source. Your consciousness has expanded to embrace a cosmic perspective. You see everything happening in the mind of God. The ecstasy of great mystics, who seem especially gifted or chosen, now becomes available to you, because you have fully matured spiritually.
The God that brings the scheme to an end, God as One, is different from the others. He isn't a projection. He signifies a state of total certainty and wonder, and if you reach that state, you are no longer projecting. Every need has been fulfilled; the path has ended with reality itself.
@@stephenwatts2649 The God is here, until your body is here, no body, no more god. God can't live without us, and we created the god because we can't leave without God. We forgot it all
I thought only politicians could say absolutely nothing for 10 minutes and make it sound important but here we are
I am new to this discussion but I am not new to having had many experiences that would fit into this discussion I have been meditating for more than 50yrs. What I experience is an expansion of what might be called my physical and mental awareness, a perception of the unifying energy of all that is around me . I experience a unifying conscious energy that is made of consciousness . It comes as my mind becomes still from thoughts.I am not religious and don't have an agenda.
I have a personal belief that consciousness is much like energy and can not be created or destroyed only transformed. BTW I have the utmost respect for the scientific community and I feel I understand the reason for their approach and respect that. I would just like to say that my experience is not unusual and has been experienced by many and documented by people for thousands of years.
1) Consciousness is not "energy." 2) Psychic "energy" has nothing to do with physical energy. That's a conflation. 3) 50 years of experience does not mean reliability. If you haven't been tested... on whatever you claim, it's simply another subjective claim. I could say I've been convinced I'm a giraffe for 50 years, and it wouldn't do anything to offer credibility for my claim. 4) The only unifying energy we have definitively found is in nature and described by physics. Pretty words do not mean much - anymore.
@@kencreten7308 i dont think physics is something over and above consciousness
Consciousness is the only thing we can be sure of.
As a materialist, strongly disagree.
That was a relaxed and easygoing description by Jaron. It felt good. Relaxing. I believe that consciousness exists, but that depends on what "I" is. It was now, it is now, and it will be now. I love all kinds of infinite whatnots.
The one infinite what-not, consciousness.
Can we define something without making any model(s) ?
If I hear someone say that they think consciousness is just an illusion, that makes me suspect that not all humans are conscious and here is one of those. That being the case, I might actually ask, "So, you won't mind if I kill you now then?" After all, there's nobody there to notice the difference - there's no-one home.
We have to agree on what words men. Consciousness cannot be an illusion. Experience can be illusory but consciousness is the one thing you can be sure about.
Simply put, it's everything.
as usual, this was great to watch, keep it up, this one was particularly interesting
Wonderful conversation, about a seemingly boundless topic.
Imagine becoming completely blind, deaf, dumb, quadriplegic and in fact losing all your senses all at once. Your brain couldn't even feel hot/cold etc. Now imagine amnesia and losing all of your memories. All of these things can happen to a person at some stage in their lives.
But if they all happened at once, what is left of your experience of consciousness? Would you just be a random collection of thoughts? Like being asleep?
Thoughts are never random...
Interesting thought. 👍
I would bet: unbearable anguish and confusion
have you ever gone into deep meditation? you can reach a very similar state of being to the one you just described. One where you are not even experiencing any thoughts. There is just pure awareness, and the awareness of pure awareness.
@@targard.quantumfrack6854 but who would be the one that is confused and in anguish?
There is nothing that I am more sure of, nothing more immediate to me, than my conscious awareness. It is the same thing as me.
The 'rub' in that perspective is that what you refer to as "me" is undefined. To be 'aware of one SELF' is to say something, but where the words used to say something are too vague to be useful in the sense of locking down accuracy and precision. If, for example, 'consciousness' is something akin to a 'universal field', then what you refer to as "me" isn't a single entity, rather, a single expression of a universal awareness that, for all we know, may indeed be engaged in a kind of 'awareness-based' game of hide-and-seek.
How would 'you', or 'I', or any-'one' else, discover if this was indeed the case given our current level of technology, our relatively paltry understanding of 'self', and our overall lack of comprehension of the likely scope of 'universal consciousness' as a context?
"cogito, ergo sum"
Descartes
@@SakisTotsikas wrote, _"cogito, ergo sum"_
Still, the "I" is undefined. What does it mean that "I" think, therefore "I" am? What is the "I" that's assumed, but undefined?
@@RichardHarlos The phrase 'I think' from the perspective of Descartes is the ultimate and only direct experience that a person could ever have. While everything else passes through channels of observation, 'I think' and even more specifically, 'I', is the only human experience that cannot be doubted (by the person themselves) and through which everything else comes into being. That is, if you don't have a self, if you don't have an 'I', there is no further reality for you, the world exists for you only as an interaction between your self and it. Just as (for you) there was no world before you were born. Therefore, the self is self-evident and the basis for anything else that follows. So according to solipsism, it is the only undeniable truth. However, despite the fact that solipsism is an extremely logical conclusion, it cannot practically function as a way of life where a high degree of faith in the existence of the wider reality is required, otherwise we would be led to insanity.
@@SakisTotsikas wrote, _"the ultimate and only direct experience that a person could ever have."_
We're still in a circular definition scenario. What is 'a person'? In the context of exploring identity and consciousness, we take many of these terms for granted, but would struggle mightily if pressed to define 'a person' in anything more than a circular definition.
I'm reminded of something that Alan Watts often emphasized in his talks. The duality of 'a thinker' who 'thinks', contrasted with 'thinking'.
He makes reference to a whirlpool. While we define such a phenomenon, there is no static sense in which a 'pool' whirls. In this example, 'pool' is what we describe by a recognizable pattern. But there aren't isn't a static collection of molecules that pool. Instead, there's the pattern that nearby water may inadvertently get sucked into following. In this sense, the 'pool' is a pattern, not a 'thing' in and of itself.
So, consider the possibility that consciousness, at least in the sense that Descartes may have meant, is a similar pattern: a localized phenomenon of self-awareness that's recognizable in time and place, but that other than the body, has no strict, material sense of 'individuality' or 'identity' in the way most people imagine it.
How do you imagine we might falsify the hypothesis that Descartes "I" is, and must be, only and entirely local to the body in which that sense of 'self' and through which sensory perception arises and occurs?
Consciousness exists regardless of one's definition of it.
The ego might be an illusion, but not the fact that you are experiencing. You can deny the accuracy and truth in what you’re experiencing, but not experience in itself.
This is a great interview. It is simple, common sense, takes respectful note of the limits of science, covers a lot of ground very quickly, and one of the keywords in it is "humility". These are not attributes you often find in discussions on consciousness.
Totally agree. I've been fascinated throughout this series by such highly intelligent people betraying themselves as being perhaps emotively biased for/ against certain possibilities. Here we see someone acknowledging this and managing it to hold the rational ground. Respect!
True, consciousness is real but only from within that consciousness... the thing thats more of an illusion is "me", or that "oneness" some people think they feel, from one point of view, in my head its real, but from another i can see the different parts of my brain inter-playing to create that oneness, but its really a collection of parts and those parts have smaller parts... the "me" i feel is like a little algorithm that my body evolved to survive and reproduce...no different to a foot or a kidney...people think of themselves as having a soul inhabiting a body, but that's back to front, the body grew itself some firmware and subroutines to move the body about and help it deal with the world "I" am a tool of the body, and when the body is done so am i.... having said that there's no reason "I" could not be translated to another host, everything just reduces to numbers after all.
If it is an illusion, then conversation of Any Kind is not possible. Consciousness is not the same thing as unicorns.
Science itself assumes consciousness.
People who are paid to talk about it in some circumstances accept a proposition that one might do say science without being self conscious.
This is absurd.
@@ericedwards913 why wouldn't conversation be possible without consciousness? It's information/data exchange
Is information or "data " or anything being exchanged, and what is meant by "exchange "...no language exists to assert this, unless you are consciously saying something to someone else.
As to the "illusion " of the "oneness" of a "me" the fact that I am not a simple monad or whatever, doesn't answer the problem nor is it a refutation of a "me" that might await with pleasurable anticipation a reply. Pretty persistent self, as ramshackle and inconsistent as I might be. Is this a duration problem or a conceptual non-problem,
Illusion is a state of consciousness
potato/potahto.
@@kencreten7308 right! saying consciousness is an illusion is contradictory because an illusion is already an instance of consciousness. so if consciousness is an illusion then that implies the illusion exists, and since an illusion is already an instance of conscioiusness it implies it both is and isnt the case that consciousness exists. contradiction.
Presupposes consciousness and mode of consciousness
@@tajzikria5307 anything wrong with presuposing consciousness?
@High Valence Yes who is the I that perceives the illusion? Illusion in itself is a mode of consciousness.
The best scientific explanation of consciousness i've heard. It just doesn't exist.
I’ve never heard a simpler concept explained so complexly
🤣
Really enjoyed this video. Lots of insight.
Jaron, I agree with you that a virtual experience would illustrate, even if only a small amount for some, the disconnection or remoteness. I think it's amazing how we're on the teetering edges between quite a lot of controversial views between science and other means of ferreting out the real truths of our universe.
The only important "truths" are the ones that we knowingly and intentionally ignore. We know exactly why we are here and what it means, but the answer isn't enough for those expectant of their own manufactured ideas.
@@Valkonnen damn bro that hits hard
@@Valkonnen and why, then, are we here exactly?
@@bethanienaylor We are here to make more of us, and that's it. We only imagine that we are 'Important" , "Children created in God's Image" but those are things you've been told. You can look at the life cycle of many animals. many Mate and then die. We are here NOT to be as comfortable as possible, but to work hard and be rewarded for it. People who lack drive and passion, and who do the minimum required to get by are bound to be miserable. Find a decent man, get married , Have Kids and raise a great family ...THAT is why we are here.
@@Valkonnen well if that's the case... r u single? Hahaha I'm only kidding 👀
I have this constant illusion that if I don't eat, I could die.
valuable perspective. Our pride at knowing what we know is acceptable. The hubris of making assumptions to inform profoundly risky decisions based on that knowledge is where we risk losing so much.
"...the importance of consciousness, it affects our sense of time, our sense of free will..." Very clarifying statement.
If understanding is the one to one correspondence, the isomorphic, relationship between consciousness and self-consciousness then the above statement is true. Consciousness is half of understanding. The question now becomes if understanding has anything at all to do with consciousness: consciousness itself without a self.
This may be the more important or empirically, scientifically, important question. Given an electric field what is an electron. Given consciousness what is self-consciousness. Electricity, static electricity, lightning, the repulsion of like charges and the attraction of opposites are all observable, is the electron observable? We can inform ourselves of the speed of an electron at the expense of information about its position, but is that, properly, seeing?
The "nowness" of seeing is not the same as scientific observation. The observation of an electron can never be "now".
This begs the question of the self. If consciousness is observable in some things then what are those things? Are deer and dolphins and dogs and doves and Dubliners all just like electrons, except they are the now of electrons? If we could actually see electrons would they be as distinct as one conscious being from another? Is the motion of electrons just like the motion of dogs and Dubliners? If so can we harness consciousness like we harness electricity? Can we use consciousness to power our phones? Or is consciousness not amenable to that kind of power? Like gravity is consciousness more amenable to larger operations?
I seem to have gotten here. To a place where I'm asking questions that can potentially change my point of view: my sense of self. The "now" of me.😢. Not by questioning my own identity but by questioning the identity of the world I'm in.
Using consciousness as a battery touches on the idea of earth being a loosh farm/soul trap 😮 kind of like the matrix movie...but anyways, back to science!(I guess)
@@bethanienaylor The Earth as a soul trap?
I would say that spacetime traps our consciousness. Everytime we go up or down spacetime shrinks or enlarges. We experience this shrinking or enlarging of spacetime as gravity: the thing that we think binds us to the Earth.
The Earth is rotating under our feet. If we could momentarily suspend spacetime when we jumped up we theoretically land 2 miles away from where we jumped up. We are trapped to something, but what in us is connects us to that thing? Our soul, consciousness, mass? Can we switch connections? Is that what dreams are? Dreams occur when our connection is temporarily broken?
Consciousness is the only think that cannot be an illusion.
Because the existence itself is not an illusion.
All kinds of what is experienced as "existence" could possibly be an illusion, just like a dream is...the fact that we are having any kind awareness of an experience that is " like" something (as Sam Harris would say) cannot itself be an illusion.
Conciousness is the basic illusion ,that's why in some non-dual teachings they advice you to abide in the I AM or the feeling of presence .When ; You ; abide long enough in this feeling it will disappear because it's an illusion .What remains is pure awereness who has no qualities ,it's pure nothingness and that's who you are .A lot of people talk about conciousess but i would advice to go into the feeling of being and that feeling is impersonal until you become 2 or 3 years old .Abide in the feeling of i am and look what's happening .
What we call the self is not consciousness. The self is the illusion that dissappears to reveal only pure consciousness, not the other way around. Consciousness is the only thing that is not an illusion. The self is. Pure consciousness does not mean being caught in the role of self, nor does it mean we are not aware. I would suggest reading- what it is like to be a bat- Thomas Nagel. Abiding in the I am to the point of losing the experience of the self reveals that only consciousness exists. For us to experience it requires that we remain aware in a consciousness...in other words the 2 year old, although being unaware or unable to describe a self...is still very much having an experience(just like Thomas Nagels bat is). The experience is having the light of consciousness on.
@@teachingbeats There's no self at all , what we call self is a contraction .What we call .I , conceptual thinking or the world is one and the same .In fact there's no difference between awareness and conciousness ,they're both nothing but conciousness is always of something , awereness does'nt need anything .And how can the mind prove conciousness ?How can the mind go beyond mind? There's no way .Seeing that the mind can't get this is true surrender and the end of seeking and asking questions ,not only about this subject but about everything .
There is a periodic, quiet, high pitched tone in this that made me crazy until I found it. Also, can't recommend Jaron's Who Owns the Future enough.
I think consciousness (the experience of experiences) is real.
I think where science falls on deaf ears for most is that it's not encouraging curiosity based on the available evidence. Could there be a middle ground between the idea of an afterlife and integrated information theory suggesting that the 'form' that we took while alive has been with the Universe from its singularity, and will be with us until it's transformed again?
I like Lanier's overall approach. I click on any "Closer To Truth" episode on consciousness that I come across, but most leave me annoyed by some fanciful theory.
Anyone who ask "Is consciousness an illusion?" is definitely 100% extremely low in consciousness (unconscious)
Consciousness can't be an illusion. The things conscious beings perceive could all be illusory, but not consciousness itself, as it is prior to everything else.
Yeap.
In order for ANYTHING to be perceived, even as an illusion, there should be a perceived mental state beforehand. Mind/mental state/consciousness is a necessary preliminary condition for existence of an illusion.
"Consciousness is an illusion" is paradoxical on semantic level.
This was like watching two replicants Voight-Kampff testing each other and them both failing
lovely interview 👏
From my limited understanding, certain schools of Buddhism, such as Tibetan Dzogchen, avoid adopting ontologically dualistic extremes regarding the existence or non-existence of consciousness. Instead, these schools present consciousness/awareness as transcending this binary classification. I also think that Tibetan Buddhism differentiates between fundamental primodial consciousness/awareness as the medium of all experience, and dualistic consciousness (being aware of being aware).
I was not aware of any arguments against consciousness, so I asked ChatGPT to explain. Here is what it said.
"One argument against consciousness is that it is a vague and ill-defined term that lacks a clear, objective definition. Some theorists argue that consciousness is used in so many different ways that it has lost any real explanatory value. They suggest that it is better to focus on specific mental processes and their underlying neural mechanisms, rather than trying to explain a nebulous and poorly defined concept like consciousness.
Another argument is that consciousness is not necessary for intelligent behavior. Some theorists propose that it is possible to create sophisticated artificial intelligence systems that are capable of complex problem-solving and decision-making without any subjective awareness. From this perspective, consciousness is seen as an unnecessary or even redundant aspect of cognition.
Finally, some theorists argue that the subjective experience of consciousness is an illusion or a byproduct of other cognitive processes. They suggest that the brain is simply processing information and generating appropriate responses, without any need for a subjective awareness of those processes. This view suggests that consciousness is not a fundamental aspect of the universe, but rather an emergent property of complex biological systems.
It's worth noting that these arguments are not universally accepted, and many philosophers and cognitive scientists argue that consciousness is a real and important aspect of mental life."
What's the difference between a person who has fainted (or who is sleeping) and one who hasn't fainted or is awake? How does the experiencer of sleep (or faint) describe the difference?
Stop thinking for yourself! 🛑 ✋
At least in our dream phases during sleep, the consciousness is working. It is restricted and does not receive its input from external sources. Except in lucid dreams, we are not aware of sleeping, but we are aware of the past on which the dream is based and also of the feelings that our dream actions trigger.
Knew Jaron back in the VPL days, Jaron is still Jaron, sometimes he has some interesting provocative thoughts. Was very impressed by the concepts embodied in VPL and was sorta sad that that body of work was effectively lost due to the failure of the company. In retrospect, VPL was just too far ahead of its time.
의식이 있는 사람은 의식이 있다고 생각하고 의식이 없는 사람은 의식이 없다고 생각한다. 나는 의식이 있는 것을 보니 정말 감사한 일이다.
Self awareness, contemplation, realization, revelation, revolution, rememberance
"Sentience is just an illusion. But it is morally wrong to be cruel to sentient beings because..."
I missed the part where he said this
Down to earth and respectful 👍
I don’t know how old this interview or debate is, but not too long ago there was an experiment, in a way quite a simple one but one that wasn’t previously possible.
Where we had several people work on a project together, which could be anything from watching a movie together or solving a puzzle etc.
However now we kept track of what exactly happens on a neurological level, like the processes on the smallest scale.
Where previously it was always thought people would copy behaviour, like if you’re watching a movie and you’re both going into the moment in the same way.
Or where you seem to intuitively know what the other expects you to do when trying to solve something together.
I think anyone can relate to this to some extent at least.
But what these experiments showed, was there isn’t a copying of behavior, but a synchronization of the processes in each individual.. syncing like a clock.
This is impossible unless one clock can tell the other clock what it’s doing.. aka the consciousness can extent..
This fact, and it is fact now, changes everything we knew about consciousness.
As this can only be explained by, at the very very least, stating that consciousness isn’t any “1” thing but definitely a sum of many things creating it.
So the claim it’s an illusion, well you run into the way more complex problem of now saying it’s somehow a shared illusion.
A notion conveniently skipped in this conversation in this video, as you can’t claim it’s all just an illusion but somehow we’re all experiencing it in the same way.
You can see the problem with that, I hope.
Is this from a longer interview? If so can somebody please post the link below.
Consciousness is the Subject. It's the Experiencer. You are the subject. Therefore, it is real.
so my guinea pig is consciousness
@@babelbabel2298 yes, and it's exactly the same consciousness as our consciousness. It just manifested differently. Consciousness can express in infinitely different ways and frequencies. Guinea pig is a lower frequency than human but the consciousness itself is the same.
@@AdrianSlofrequency of what?
@@vladinosky Consciousness. Everything in reality is made of consciousness, it's one kind of 'substance'. This is non-duality. This means that matter (as independent from consciousness) does not exist.
@@AdrianSlo ok ok but that "substance" you talk about, has a frequency? What do you mean? It's beating like a drum, like guitar string, like a superstring?
Since I was a kid I've always had experiences beyond physical consciousness, psychic some folks term it. Certainly some can be explained within a purely physical world; such as telepathy, such as seeing through walls, such as finding hidden objects which were randomized so that no one actually knew what was hidden where or by whom, etc. The only experiences which take us beyond the purely physical are the visions of the future.
Consciousness to me is the limited; consisting of body, of experience, of imagination. Awareness is not limited to experience. Awareness can shift into other actualities, which although far more real and far more flexible, are nonetheless limited by our own conceptions, interpretations, etc. And no, awareness is not a process of hallucination.... nor the result of drugs, deprivation, etc.
For most there is merely the ramblings of thought, of emotion (which is just concerted thought), running through the brain, or rather running riot in the brain. In other words, simply memory play of no actual purpose. However, once that ceases, other perceptions open. Not that I advocate what is termed meditation, as that leads to all sorts of delusions itself. Thoughts can come to a stand still when we stop chasing our own input.
Fight me at the Effiel Tower tonight in ur dreams. Don't worry I'll bring u
Lets say some people might genuinely have such experiences that are real, and some people believe they have such experiences but in fact are just dreaming or hallucinating, and not able to realise their experiences are imagined. How would you tell which kind of person you are?
@@simonhibbs887 Quite simply, I write future knowing down and date such. Tell others of future events, etc. Not very difficult to understand what is real in this reality.
Drop of water to the sea they are 1 your consciousness connected with 1 everything
memory do we have the power to go back in time just thinking about it i believe yes we just have to learn how
Whatever the case, how it got to the level it has is astonishing. This entity, so mentally capable to ponder and explore and realize it's reality. In ways that go far beyond the need to replicate. To me it's as if mind is falling down a path where its navigation requires the fulfillment of all possibilities. Like water pouring into a void it fills every possible crevice. Or like slime mold exploring a maze completely and with that knowledge then selecting the(its) optimal path.
Wow! Beautifully said. I love this way of putting words and metaphors on this grand concept. But that is truly how it feels and felt in my research into consciousness, meditation, psychedelics, vibration and music. My life has gone from grey and pointless to exciting and magical. By "dispelling" childhood magic and turning into a sad adult cog in a machine, I was forced to find even greater magic that hides in plain sight. Our experience of all of these crevices of existence and the possibility to share and be part of so many different outcomes ourselves, through our ever growing connectivity has me in constant awe.
"Do not mistake understanding for realization nor realization for liberation...,"
Consciousness is as Hofstedder says in his book "A Strange Loop". Awareness of awareness.
I think just 'awareness' is enough. Most if not all animals are not aware of their own awareness, yet still have subjective experience, i.e., are conscious.
It is hard to define the undefinable. Consciousness at base level could be equated with awareness. At its high point it could be sentient and immaterial operating independently and through beings capable of consciousness.
Awareness, yes. Also, self examination and theory of mind, as well as the awareness that we have such abilities and put them to use to optimize our situations.
Sentience being on a spectrum makes it hard to quantify in absolute terms. We definitely could use some better words.
Suppose organism X is ignorant of the word 'self' and
ignorant of the concept the word 'self' represents.
Would organism X be able to consider organism X to be a self?
If you say yes then
of what would organism X's thought consist in its consideration?
If there is no thought of self in organism X,
what then in organism X could possibly be conscious?
If my self did not exist
my self could not assert that my self is conscious.
Obviously!
If my self transitions to not conscious (as in a deep and dreamless slumber)
in what sense could it be said that
my self exists?
Seems to me there is an extraordinarily tight link between
the concept of a self and the concept of being conscious.
In fact I think the link is so tight that the self and
being conscious cannot be distinguished.
I was thinking maybe when an organism tries to fit descriptions it ends up having access (by introspection of things) to something undefinable.
It's not only hard to define the undefinable, by definition it's impossible to define it. With apologies for a bit of pedantic interruption. 😉
You can never argue for consciousness being an illusion. Because by that you would disprove yourself as being conscious (in other words, you can't look through an illusion otherwise it stops being one).
I think that is what Jaron is trying to say.
Can consciousness be measured? If so, how would this done? What kinds of instruments?
'We don't have the tools to do anything but wonder' 💯
Still, isn't it strange the way we wake up to consciousness every morning? The way we dream as if we're fully conscious? The way we fear death because we will loose consciousness for good?
Consciousness has the quality of the air: it exists but we can't pinpoint it or grasp it.
Profound
This was the line that stuck with me! Interesting conversations as always :)
Illusion is what separates us from the ultimate reality. !!
"Reflect upon the Past.
Embrace your Present.
Orchestrate our Futures."
-- Artemis
🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨
"Before I start, I must see my end.
Destination known, my mind’s journey now begins.
Upon my chariot, heart and soul’s fate revealed.
In time, all points converge, hope’s strength re-steeled.
But to earn final peace at the universe’s endless refrain,
We must see all in nothingness... before we start again."
🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨
--Diamond Dragons (series)
When people are so far removed from Spirit and have become logically biased, there is no hope to have them comprehend. It is my fear, as we become more ‘civilized’, we lose that which makes us human.
Jaron is always enlightening
He's a genius but he's a typical computer scientist who doesn't have much intuitive physical experience. Most computer people wish to live in the ether instead of the body. We got to examine the psychological motivations for their opinions.
When I think of consciousness, I try to understand it like I do every other difficult question, I break it down. Most people think about consciousness from the perspective of the experiences in life that they have had, well what about someone with amnesia, dementia, etc? Do they have consciousness? Obviously, the guy with amnesia, would be aware that he is someone, but he just doesn't know who he is. He still can appreciate beautiful sunrises, warm sun on his face, etc, correct? This is probably the same for someone with dementia, even though they can't say, there are interesting studies out there that use MRI's, etc to see how people react when "brain dead", etc. Anyway, I think that consciousness is deeper than our memories, and I believe it is related to electrical and chemical exchanges (serotonin synapses.)
To really experiment with this, achieve ego death.
@@lilahdog568 I have
@@roybenitez8894
U have not, be dead n observe within. Observe every subtle change, find out how your body works…
Very good. Thank you.
I think consciousness is like the force in Star wars. Each of us individually have access to that so-called force however our own separate consciousness is in an infinitesimal point in that force. I know it sounds like I'm making it up I just don't really know how to quantify it.
Everything is related together, from the beginning until the end!
Mind is a part of consciousness. A part can not comprehend a whole.
Simple question. If someone has dementia and forgets everything but the others around him see him going through it and the guy with dementia has no idea. How is his illusion affecting my illusion about my perception of him. If we all have an illusion why do we all see the same thing but might have different feelings. Sorry I’m high. Good night
I am convinced that my toilet is not an illusion. I have two of them and I love it esp as I am getting old.
I knew something was off when I was sensing what later came to be the observer effect as young as 4 years old
Awareness is known by awareness alone.
Consciousness is self-awareness. Self-reflection. In order for you to know that you are you, you have to have something else to compare it to. Without a concept of another, you would not have a concept of self. Therefore, consciousness is literally self-reflection, self-awareness, the ability to know the self by knowing what is not the self.
The idea is that existence is one unbroken thing. There is an aspect or a form or a version of existence that we call the One, for convenience, that does not know itself. It is completely homogeneous in the sense that there is nothing else but it. Therefore, there is absolutely no reference point for it. Therefore, it has no sense of self, no experience, no self-awareness whatsoever.
But there is also the version of existence that does know itself, and that is what we term, for convenience, "All That Is." It is literally the existence that is aware of itself because it creates within itself a kind of reflective pattern of resonance of energy, and therefore, creates otherness within itself, a reflection of itself. And therefore, it can know itself that way by comparing the reflection of itself to itself, and become self-aware.
Those reflections continue to reverberate on and on and on and on and on infinitely. And, each and every one of those reflections then is literally all that exists within "All That Is." All that "All That Is" is made of all of you, all of us. Everything you can imagine is a reflection of existence knowing itself through "All That Is."
So, consciousness very importantly requires the concept of otherness within existence in order to know itself. And life experiences and time and space and all that you ever experienced, experience now or will experience is the product of "All That Is" knowing itself in all the ways that it can.
Every single thing, every single being, every single concept within existence are all the different eyes of God, if you want to put it that way, through which it sees itself in those reflections. But because, it is actually consciousness itself, because, it is conscious of itself, then all the reflections are also made of that consciousness. All the reflections are conscious too, such as all of you, all of us, everything.
Now, everything may not express the idea of self-aware consciousness in the way that you do, but everything is still an expression of self-aware reflected consciousness. Even a rock has some degree of awareness that it is this rock and not that rock, but it may do that through a being such as yourself, by you noticing that there is this rock and that rock. You are including the idea of your reflection of consciousness in such a way that the rock can know itself through your perception, even though it may not know itself exactly in the way that you do. It is still, on some level, aware that it is its own rock.
So, consciousness is everything, is everywhere, and you can experience it in a number of different ways. If you get more aware of nature, more aware of "All That Is," more aware of different parallel realities and dimensions, different aspects of imagination and creativity, because there cannot be anything that you can imagine that is not somehow part of "All That Is."
Existence is what it is. It is in no way, shape or form subject to anything, because everything exists within existence. Time and space are subject to existence. Existence is not subject to time and space. Existence just has one quality, it just is. That's its nature. It is. And therefore, non-existence is not something that existence can become.
Non-existence has its own quality. It is that which does not exist. Therefore, by definition, non-existence doesn't exist. Therefore, everything that you experience is part of existence, on some level real unto itself, a reflection of All That Is experiencing itself in all the ways that it can, and expanding and expanding in infinite reflections to allow for the expansion of All That Is knowing itself.
Now, the structure of existence never changes, that is fixed. It is a definitive reflective structure. What changes, what expands, are all the different viewpoints, experiences, and perspectives of the structure that never changes. So, it is both changing and unchanging, again exhibiting that paradox of that which does not know itself and that which does. And this is why it all comes down to that ancient idea you've heard on your planet for thousands of years as to why it is so important to know thyself. Because the idea is, as you know more and more and more of who and what you are as an expression and a reflection of the infinite of All That Is, you experience more of being All That Is, as the aspect, as the reflection of All That Is, that each and every single one of you is.
So, remember that your point of power is in paradox, somewhere in between what appears to be two polar opposites, that which does not know itself, that which does, is, in a sense, the truth of existence itself, because everything issues from that center point and demonstrates very clearly that even though sometimes we know you think of existence as a duality, positive and negative, it is, in fact, actually a trinity, because there is always a balance point in the center. And therefore, being in that balance point, being in that state of being, is always the state of being that will allow you the best possible way to know yourself, the best possible way to receive more of the reflection of yourself.
And as you expand and expand your perspective and expand your experience of All That Is from your unique point of view, you then become more and more in all ways who you truly are, which is All That Is. But you have decided here and now to play the game for a while of forgetting who you are, because you need to forget who you are in order to remember who you are from a new point of view. You have to wipe the slate clean in order to have a truly new experience, because if you exist only in a timeless state, there is no change, there is no growth, there is no discovery. So you play the game of imposing on yourself these kinds of blinders to forget that you are, in fact, infinite, to forget that you are, in fact, eternal, to forget that you are, in fact, All That Is, so you can play the game of not being All That Is and explore and discover new perspectives of yourself, and that's what allows All That Is to grow and expand forever and ever and ever. It never ends, never ever ever.
You have ideas that you call such things as blending with God. Well, when I blend with God, I guess that's it. No, because as you blend with God, what you actually experience is that you are God. There is nothing but you, and this is what each and every one of you can experience, because it's holographic in nature. It's holographic in structure. And therefore, just because you might suddenly experience yourself as All That Is doesn't mean it's necessarily finished, because you could experience yourself as All That Is from one perspective, experience yourself as All That Is from another perspective, and on and on and on and on.
The ring has no beginning. The ring has no end. Existence just is, and it is always, always, always becoming and being simultaneously. Again, the paradox shows its head.
In light of the idea now that you may have a bit of a reflection of the idea of consciousness being a reflection, being a sense of self based on the sense that there is another that seems that appears to not be you, (of course, it is) but, appears not to be you, you have a sense of that game of existence that it plays with itself to awaken itself to new understandings of exactly what it is.
Just absorb it in your own way. Doesn't matter how you interpret this. It's your own journey, your own path. You are your own reflection, you are your own representation of All That Is, and without your unique perspective, All That Is couldn't be All That Is. So always please remember, you are valid, you are valuable because if you weren't needed, believe me, you wouldn't exist. Because All That Is doesn't make mistakes, so the fact that you exist is validation enough to prove that All That Is needs your unique perspective, your unique reflection, your unique experience, in order for it to actually be all that it can be.
Love and light to you all...
"We don't have the tools to know anything, but wonder". You shoulda started with that.
If conciousness is an illusion then immediately this question arises who's illusion? Who's illusion? The material peoples can not explain this , they can not explain subjective experience, feelings , conciousness is so radically different from material objects that still it's a mystery. On the other hand Lord Krishna says our existence consist of 3 levels 1.gross body 2.subtle body i.e mind, intellect and ego 3.soul. Now conciousness emarges from soul and mind is the interface between outer world and soul.
Would you then ask, "who's soul?" ?
@@trandyan soul and consciousness would be the same thing
@@trandyan You can argue circular comment and asking the question who's soul ? I can give answer by another circular argument soul of the soul but the point is we are different from material objects no material thing can not create subjective experience, personality, soul is that spirit and from that personality emarges.
Appealing to an imaginary entity does not answer the question either. It just pushes the question back a level because then we still have to explain the soul and mind. We also have to explain how the soul and mind interfaces with the world. What is the mechanism that allows the soul and mind to interface with the world?
Material people can explain it. People will not accept the explanation because it does not feel satisfying. Nature is under no obligation to satisfy our feelings on what is real.
@@kos-mos1127 explain for me, how does a bunch of particles working together cause first person experience? It doesn’t make any sense.
Consciousness is a dimension. I talk about this all the time on my channel.
Would be interesting to hear you interview Tolle about this subject.
Consciousness can't be explained with words because consciousness is beyond language. Language is how we make sense of the world/universe. You can only point in the direction of what consciousness is.. It's up to you to discover IT! The depths of who you are, is consciousness. Not your thoughts, not your feelings, it's only pure AWARENESS.. Find your Awareness that lies behind all of your thoughts feelings, and all of your experiences. Then you will be able to know consciousness.
Consciousness will never be verified by the scientific community because the hand cant grab itself. They want to see it, feel it, observe it, etc. However, the perciever cant be perceived in that sense. It is the one, doing the sensing and/or perceiving in the first place.
"Be still, hold still and know that I AM God." - Thomas Soler
plagiarism
@@johnjeffreys6440 Blasphemy. You will be slaughtered once I rule the world. I will NOT forgive your ignorance.
Consciousness is not a PHYSICAL thing, it is an emergent experience of systems of the brain.
so it's not(doesn't feel) physical but a consequence of physical things? neuronal activity etc
That's a physicalist view of consciousness. I agree it's not a physical thing because nothing is a physical thing.
Consciousness IS a physical thing just as light is a physical thing, and just as wind is a physical thing.
Everything is physical
Things can be emergent but everything must obey physics at the fundamental level
All physical "things" come out of a non-physical "non-thing"...
I think we should all share our opinions and how we feel about consciousness or anything ....without trying to be right. Or telling someone to they are wrong. Free to believe what you feel to be true ....without judgement. Because no one really knows anything . And nothing is a fact.
My definition of consciousness: "The self's awareness." Self: Neural-based representation of perceived and felt beingness. Awareness: Felt perception of qualia and milieu.
@Free Doms Not quite. The self (neural activity) can exist without consciousness. Both arise from neural activity - complex neural networks.
imo, this is the dumbest position possible. an illusion implies a VIEWER. it is the nature and identity of that viewer that we're concerned with in the first place ffs!
I'm convinced this show's host doesn't want to genuinely know lol at least try
He's doing this show for the audience.
Get the same impression.
Why do you say that?
Because he didn’t just say mmhmm yes I agree with everything thanks for telling me? This is just what a conversation between two experts in a field looks like…
Yeah, he just wants to get closer to the truth.
“Something unknown is doing we-don’t-know-what… That is what our knowledge amounts to.” -Alan Watts
That is also the perfect definition for an electron.
There are two ways to look at this problem:(i) either consciousness is all permeating throughout the universe and our brains, as sensors, are built to interact with it depending on it’s range of capacity and awareness, OR (ii) we are the only one that think are conscious and nothing else is, which is just an illusion for sure. The former could be more possible, although we would never be able to prove that consciousness is the essence of the universe. However, the sensors or artificial brains can be built to see if those can also somewhat interact with the screen of universal consciousness.
An illusion is a content of consciousness.
Thus, consciousness can't be an illusion
Descartez said, " I think, therefore I am " but the truth is, " I am, therefore I think " to even think that consciousness is an illusion requires that you be conscious, so the statement " consciousness is an illusion " is an absolute contradiction.
I think conciousness exists because it is something we seem to experience, and we gave it the name Conciousness, there's no question of if it exists because we are experiencing it, or we think we're experiencing something we have given the name Conciousness. The question I see is, what, and why is consciousness? How do we experience what we do? Only if the language we speak was predetermined and definite could we question the existence of a concept with a label in the language. So the question is what is consciousness? Personally, think consciousness is awareness. But what is awareness? Well, that could be just brain function, but it still doesn't really answer everything
To have an illusory experience, first you need awareness/consciousness of an expeience.
The only thing that I can be absolutely sure about this world is the fact that I’m experiencing it. Everything else including my intellectual inferences of the world happens as a subset of this experience. It is the most real thing about this world. It is the essence of “realness”.
Nisargadatta
What's the difference between cognitive awareness and consciousness?
The universe is one big consciousness and we are all connected.
Consciousness is not simply what you think it is,
It is also what you thought it was …
So - you think you know what you think you know,
But you should also know that which you don’t.
Yet you may not realize
What is most important
Is that you cannot know
That which you can’t.
And lest you think you know it all,
One thing you cannot know is this:
Though with you since you learned to crawl,
It is what you think of as consciousness.
For consciousness is not the present,
And consciousness is not the past,
It’s the mental place between those spaces
That your mind’s memory cannot hold fast.
I would say there is evidence to suggest that both determinism and non determism exist simultaneously. I personally believe that all particles fundementally have the same capacity of free will (free will being defined as a probabilistic future rather than a set future) but that determistic forces outweigh the nondetermistic forces. This is why i think that while overall we have a very deterministic universe, but when you get to the grit of it all, things become more vague and obscure, though still somewhat predictable.
The full awareness in a situation that no thing or any form of matter, what is that?
The question itself is the russell paradox in formal math logic or the Nelson grelling paradox in linguistics. It's self refenential.
Quick answer: The physical body and the mind cannot see or be aware of consciousness, however, consciousness is fully aware of both of these constructs. Therefore the answer is this, what we call the mind and body are simply illusions or expressions of consciousness. We are consciousness and most cases simply waiting to be realized. Once one experiences this, it is exactly as he said, it's very hard to explain this verbally.