People misinterpret this , yes you have no enemies , but yes you also have people who wanna see you fall. They are not enemies , just obstacles in your way. So do not hate them like enemies , over come them like obstacles
I was 16 when I first watched Vinland sagas anime, and Thors speech at the beginning of the series, went in one ear and out the other, and I became quickly absorbed in the violence of the show. After finishing season one of the anime I quickly jumped on my laptop to continue reading the series. I was completely and utterly confused by the huge change that happened in Thorfin. I was angry, I thought why isn’t he trying to escape? Why isn’t he fighting his way out of this captivity he finds himself trapped in. I was upset, but I did not stop reading. I had to figure out what was going on where this is going. It was very confusing and I didn’t understand it, until out nowhere, it just all clicked, it all made sense. I understood what thors meant at the beginning of the series and I understood Thorfinn’s actions. When I first got to farmland I felt like a young Thorfinn having Thors tell him that he has no enemies I didn’t understand it, I realized it was maturity. Reading Vinland saga helped me mature, it helped me control my anger issues, and it helped me become the man I am today. I am now 21 and I still have a lot to learn but I have made a lot of progress thanks to Vinland saga.
Interestingly, even though Thorfinn and Askeladd's relationship is complicated, I always felt that Askeladd in his own way, was trying to get through to Thorfinn to stop this path of vengeance. Askeladd didn't want Thorfinn to fall down where he had. Askeladd hates himself and hates his father. And he became the very thing he hated, a viking. I believe that's why he was always so harsh and even cruel to Thorfinn. I don't think even Askeladd realized it, but he truly cared about Thorfinn deep down. Be it in a twisted way. He looked out for Thorfinn and didn't kill him or leave him to starve. I believe part of that, was because of his huge respect for Thorfinn's father , Thors.
Also, don't forget that he was ready to be assassinated when Thorfinn went to his tent at night. Askeladd was always looking for the next way to die, and that's why his plans where so unhinged and he didn't care which enemies he was making. He honestly didn't even want for Bjorrn (was it Bjorrn?) to take Thorfinn hostage, even when Thors was about to defeat him. It happened and he had to show ruthlessness in front of his men, but he was ok with losing the fight fairly. He even accepted to let everyone else go, and I think it's because he always valued anyone's life more than his own. He just got into a bad crowd and so he always prioritized his crew's needs, to the detriment of innocents, but if there was nothing to gain, he always tried to avoid violence.
Because people allways want to see the superlative in storys. They cant enjoy a shonen/seinen story without a protagonist that doesn't want to fight. They grown up with storys of bloodshed and action. With worldly or uninersal destruction and risks. But hey, not everyone has to love this story. That Aot was for other people, is Vinland Saga for me.
Musashi's last arc where he doesnt wanna fight anymore is one of the best arcs I've read. Thorfiin pretending to be his daddy is ridiculous, childish and boring.
@@kollen5952Thorfinn pretending to be Thors? Ah, yes, I remember when Thors said that he wanted to go to Vinland and travelled all the way to Greece to get the horns of a not-so-mythical animal to then sell them, so that he could get the resources to travel and colonize Vinland. How could've I missed this? Truly a carbon copy.
@@calebreddinger2444 the way the copy paste dude does is childish. The author is a bad writter, he couldnt make plausible thorffin's arc. Seriously, this manga comes not even close to berserk or vagabond, in fact, it looses even to kingdom wich is awesome by the way, I recommend it, unlike the trash Vinland, wich is a bad manga on itself
@@a_new_dude7794 the way the copy paste dude does is childish. The author is a bad writter, he couldnt make plausible thorffin's arc. Seriously, this manga comes not even close to berserk or vagabond, in fact, it looses even to kingdom wich is awesome by the way, I recommend it, unlike the trash Vinland, wich is a bad manga on itself
The most common defense of a man who resorts to violence (say, Ketil) I hear is, "he's the product of his age, even though he abused this one slave, he's a good man because others were far worse." I think therein lies the trap. Wise men of all cultures, religions and ages - Ancient Greece, India, China, Japan, Middle East, Europe - were not the product of their age - they rose above it. An average man bows down to what is "normal" in his age, and by doing so he's just a herd animal doing what everyone else is doing. A wise man's actions are timeless and hold equal value in any age, past, present or future. And they all agree on this: There's nothing amazing about violence. Skill is admirable, but hurting another human being, or yourself, for that matter? We all do that in some measure. It's the most average thing in the world. To realise this means first to sink into the depths of your own personal hell, and to rise from it is to walk the path to wisdom. And Thorfinn is a great depiction of that.
Gotta say, people saying the farming arc is slow and boring is hilarious when you consider that farming is often seen as the same despite how crucial it is to civilization.
What go me into Vinland Saga , was the deeper character moments and deep themes/messages. I feel that was always present , even in season 1 . Sure season 1 had more action, but it was never about the action . The story has always tried showing the horrific reality of war and what it dose to those involved and those affected . Thorfinn's father planted those seeds of those messages into Thorfinn from the very beginning, that Thorfinn forgot until the end of season 2.
It's about becoming a better person. You can't change the world but you can change yourself. Imagine if everyone lived in a similar way? Sure we get angry at each other and may even hate others. But that doesn't give anyone the right to physically hurt another person. Everyone who's hurt another person has some kind of excuse. The only reason you should harm another is in the defense of yourself or another.
The issue i have is that as great as pacifism is there are situations where you honestly dont have the luxury to be a pacifist, ive always preferred the warrior in a garden concept over complete pacifism.
Only someone who's lived a very privileged life would mistake pacifism for being passive against a threat. Ironically this modern short-sighted pacifism would bring more violence and suffering to the weak. But hey, I guess I don't get it because Midland Saga is too mature for me.
I wrote this up in another comments section in response to someone saying that they didn't find Thorfinn's character development believable in the second season. figured I'd share it here: I think a lot of Thorfinn's current characterization makes more sense when you actually fully understand how Thorfinn was capable of ending up the way he was in the first season. his character is legitimately fascinating. even starting from the age of six, Thorfinn was already a prideful kid. like, even when he was back in the village where he was raised. we see it in the first couple episodes... he doesn't want to believe that their people ran away to Iceland, thinking that it's disgraceful, despite the reality that Thors deserted the Jomsviking. at the age of six, this simply hasn't been properly explained to him yet, and in fact, Thors doesn't talk about his time with the Jomsviking at all. but Thorfinn still absorbs attitudes via cultural osmosis from his surroundings. and when his father is called to war, Thorfinn starts playing rougher with the other kids as a kind of mimicking of what he thinks it means to qualify as strong enough to be a soldier. and, like many children, he's in the part of life where feeling angry goes hand in hand with fighting or roughhousing, because it's instant catharsis for his little kid frustrations. Thors is interesting because he goes against the dominant cultural attitude that surrounds him, as shown very plainly when the town celebrates that there's going to be a war, while he stands dejected in their midst. and both of his children are influenced by this culture... we see it in Ylva when she asks about getting a slave, (and we also see how Thors differs from the dominant cultural mindset when pays for the freedom of a dying man in episode 1), and we see it in Thorfinn when he goes looking for the dagger. once again, Thors differs, and he has to try and teach Thorfinn better, but he has limited time. and Thorfinn has a point. Thors is about to go to war. his job there will be to kill the enemy. regardless of how Thors, as an adult, intends to finagle this situation going forward, Thorfinn doesn't know what's going on in his head. and we even see Thors stumble over his words several times while trying to convey this. I think this is because Thors's pacifism is a conclusion that he came to on his own, intuitively, and after a lot of experience. and unless a person has been through his same experiences, it's very hard to make them understand what he sees. by the time Thors dies, he has still yet to say anything that would truly convince Thorfinn of his pacifistic point of view. this is actually a very clever bit of writing, because it basically communicates to the audience "I know you won't believe this idea without proof" and via Thorfinn, the story then intends to provide it. but first, Thorfinn is further disincentivized from considering Thors's perspective by the way that this philosophy fails him. if Thors dying was the result of his pacifistic approach, then it didn't really do him any good, did it? to six year old Thorfinn, his father's method was proven useless, in the most dramatic way possible. Thorfinn still misses his father, so he still tries, to some degree, to emulate his father's conduct. that's why he demands to fight Askeladd in a duel. and yet, you can tell that Thorfinn is meshing this with the might-makes-right landscape of his culture. he hasn't been convinced that there's any good in reconciliation, or taught in a way he can understand... and so the duel, as a gesture, is hollow. the homage is an imperfect attempt to replicate the actions of someone he loved, without truly grasping the root motivations behind it all. but then there's still the intrigue of why his father would say these things in the first place. that's what keeps those words lingering in the back of his mind, long after his father is gone. I also think it's interesting how we, as the audience, can clearly see the position of Thors in terms of the world and it's attitudes. Thors is a man with an uncommonly kind and gracious perspective, given his culture. honestly, the idea that Thors could arrive at this perspective all on his own is why we can believe that Thorfinn might improve someday too. Thors is proof that even violent men can atone and become better... he didn't start out perfect either. but in the moment where they clash, when you contrast Thors with Askeladd and his crew, and the way they conduct themselves, you can see why a man like Thors would be needed. the world needs people like Thors, specifically to counteract this nefarious element. Thors dying robs the world of a valuable perspective, because men like Askeladd also exist. if you already know why Thors was valuable, then watching Thorfinn throughout season 1 is frustratingly tragic... but if you don't understand Thors at first, and you need a bit more convincing, then watching Thorfinn over the rest of the first season is the proof of what Thors knew. Thors is proven right because Thorfinn does everything wrong. and one of Thorfinn's strongest and most defining traits as a protagonist is his tenacity. he tries very hard, gets very far, and never gives up. due to this, Thorfinn stays on the path that runs counter to his father's philosophy, displaying it's every flaw as thoroughly as possible, from the start of that road, all the way to the bitter end. if a story is going to preach peace, it has to put it's money where it's mouth is, and acknowledge all the aspects of life on earth that make peace so difficult to achieve. that's what Thorfinn is there to experience, and without his determination, we wouldn't be able to see all of it. (to be continued)
(continued) when it comes to the subject of Thorfinn's manipulation... I do think that, past a certain point, Thorfinn is at least partially responsible for the choices he's made. but in particular, when it comes to Thorfinn, I think it's more important to talk about culpability, and how messy that idea becomes around his character. like... I think most people can agree that when a six year old child watches his father die, declares his intent to duel his father's killer to the death, and then an adult takes that seriously and tells him "not until you've accomplished something on the battlefield," that constitutes an obvious power imbalance that the adult in the situation is exploiting. the adult knows how ridiculous that request is, but the kid doesn't. that kid is about to put themselves in danger, and there's an imbalance in who knows it. even if having a mature perspective was the only unequal aspect, this would count as manipulation, to a grossly unfair degree, but Askeladd also has physical strength and coordination on his side... there is no part of this scenario that Thorfinn can control. and that's a tricky statement, because technically, he could just walk away. but what six year old could you actually expect to ignore a smug adult who is consciously pushing all of his buttons? when I say that Thorfinn has no control, I mean over anything. to begin with, this is a matter of wounded pride... Thors was killed, and Askeladd says it's because he was naive. Thorfinn was taken hostage, and Askeladd says it's because he was weak. and now Thorfinn feels like, if he wants to counteract any of those statements, he has to prove himself against the ways that Askeladd is judging him. if Askeladd is the one setting the standard, then as Thorfinn ages, when do his actions become his own? I'm asking mostly hypothetically, because I think the ambiguity works well here... and it's also the nearest we'll get to the truth. as Thorfinn grows up, there's this slow slide into worse and worse behavior, but the presence of all of it is based on his guidance, or lack thereof. he literally wouldn't even physically be in these situations if the adults around him didn't put him there... and that's just a fact, regardless of intent. the adults around him may not know or care what this is doing to him, but it's still happening. in some ways, this concept doesn't even change with modernization... many abusers wouldn't self-describe as abusing someone while they're doing it. and because of this, there isn't really a moment you can pinpoint at which the culpability 100% shifts over to Thorfinn. even when he's old enough to seem less like a little kid to us, we still know how his history led him to this point, with no real opportunity for his trajectory to change. I think that's the point of the scene in the village, with that woman who treats Thorfinn's wounds. Thorfinn was probably around ten years old at that point in time... so he's already spent years around Askeladd, absorbing what his expectations are, and learning that he's never good enough. and the effect that this produces, is that Thorfinn is already incapable of choosing something better than suffering. while following Askeladd, his needs are consistently neglected, he's the subject of mockery, he goes unfed, he isn't given a roof over his head or safe place to sleep... under any other circumstances this would qualify as abuse. once again, just because the times set a precedent for adult pirates to display this kind of behavior naturally, that doesn't mean it damages a person any less to be subjected to those conditions. and in this village, Thorfinn is offered all of the things he lacks with Askeladd... a bed, new clothes, food, hygiene, medical care, basic kindness, and he doesn't even think about truly accepting it. he's already rejecting practical decency, in favor of an increasingly difficult set of chores, where the only reward is a slim chance at catharsis. you can literally offer Thorfinn better rewards, incentives, and treatment, and he'll snub it outright. he's been trained not to take it. by this point, I think Thorfinn's self esteem has been eroded. Thorfinn has been told that his dad died because he was weak enough to get captured and held hostage. so by now, Thorfinn probably believes that it's at least a little bit his fault. and for the entire time that Thorfinn was pursuing duels with Askeladd, Askeladd and his men were judging him by an adult standard of violence. and whenever Thorfinn failed to produce an adult’s level of violence, they’d literally laugh at him, even while he was being hurt. you can tell that Thorfinn blamed himself for not measuring up, because he kept trying to measure up… as though he really thought he was supposed to be able to. in Thorfinn’s mind, he’s been failing for his entire life. literally Askeladd used him as an expendable guy for scouting because he’d rather not risk anyone who actually mattered, and then he acted surprised every time Thorfinn came back alive. but Thorfinn kept believing that once he defeated Askeladd, that would be proof that he’d finally gotten strong enough to erase his past weakness. if he could just kill the guy who’s been laughing at him the entire time, then it would be Thorfinn’s turn to set the standards. and so, all he wants is a duel. and in order to get a duel, he has to do what Askeladd says. his wants are now Askeladd's wants. and nothing can alter his priorities from the outside. I always think about how unsettling it would be to pull Thorfinn aside at the age of, say, eight or something? and ask him to explain what he's doing and why. hearing his child voice explain it would be very creepy. and as he grows older, this doesn't change. his motives, and way of thinking about his actions, remain very childish, and very dependent on someone else, even into his teenage years. he's a puppet, and it doesn't even take much to see the strings. and it might even be easier for Thorfinn to cope with what he's done by allowing things to remain this way. if he doesn't have to think about any of the things he's been doing, because someone else is giving him his instructions, then he doesn't have to wrestle with the morality of whether or not he should be doing what he's doing. and in the end, it's like Askeladd says in the episode where he finally gives Thorfinn that duel... "everyone is a slave to something." Thorfinn has literally been told what to do all his life... he's never really decided his own actions all this time. so as unhealthy as it is, it makes total sense for him to end up enslaved on this farm. this is well within his comfort zone. and Askeladd had to have known what he was doing... but he's a fascinating character, in large part because a lot of his motives remain ambiguous. I mean, Askeladd was awake when Thorfinn snuck up on him with a sword... we could assume that Askeladd would let Thorfinn kill him in his sleep, given what Askeladd did to his dad, but Askeladd also could've simply been curious to see whether Thorfinn would do it or not... or he may have believed that Thorfinn wasn't capable of it, whether due to his age, or his father's values. we already know that Askeladd was intrigued by Thors's values, and that intrigue might've carried over to Thorfinn a small bit. we never get an explanation, so we can only speculate. but I think we have to be careful not to project too much fond sentiment onto Askeladd... he's a smart tactician, and when he tells his uncle that he's using his slave wrong, he literally says "anyone can be useful if you know how to handle them" and it cuts directly to Thorfinn. Askeladd knows he's being manipulative, especially during the duel, when he baits Thorfinn's anger by calling into question whether he even killed Thors in the first place. Askeladd also consistently sets Thorfinn up with near impossible missions, like bringing him a head with a helmet, or killing Thorkell, and then his crew retreats before Thorfinn can even extract himself from the situation. Askeladd has no qualms with presuming that he died... and he keeps tasking him with missions like these, which are designed to leave Thorfinn constantly falling just a little bit short. to me, this high bar dangled just ever so slightly out of reach is part of the manipulation... because Askeladd knows just where to place it so that Thorfinn has to keep striving for something unobtainable. and the longer this goes on, the less possible it is for Thorfinn to give this up, because if he does, then all of this will have been for nothing. Thorfinn has already done too much... if nothing comes of it, then he will have been a monster for no reason. (to be continued)
(continued) so by the time we get to season 2, I really think we're starting to see how underdeveloped Thorfinn is, but it's actually a huge feature for his character. it's not a writing flaw... it's what happens to people when they focus on anger and violence, to the exclusion of all else, and leave the entire rest of themselves on the cutting room floor. when Einar says that Thorfinn is like an overgrown baby, I think that's a completely accurate description. there are parts of Thorfinn that he's simply packed away, and hasn't touched since he was six years old. his environment left him with no use for these things, so he hasn't gone back to them. it leaves his character feeling very innocent in a lot of ways, because most people make a lot of the discoveries he's making now, when they're much younger. his development has been on pause this entire time, and it feels like we're finally able to meet him for real, because he's finally given the space to decide who he wants to be. and it only redoubles the tragedy of Thorfinn in the first season, because when we finally get to meet him in the second season, I love him. it's painful to think about the person that got walled over during that dark time. if he hadn't broken away from it all, and remained the way he was, we might've never met him. and as I said, I think that's what happened to characters like Bjorn, or Askeladd. there were parts of them that could've been good, and there were parts of them that yearned for things that they never felt capable of pursuing. Bjorn wanted to be Askeladd's genuine friend, and he never even felt like he could ask for it, until the day he died. Askeladd always wanted peace for Wales. he always cared for his mother's homeland, even if he never truly felt like he was welcome to join the people who lived there. instead, he lived his entire life as a Dane, and wasn't willing to really involve himself in the struggle for Wales, until putting his life on the line was his only option left. if he'd been able to start trying earlier, that might not have been the only thing he could do. even if they try to repress it, these are still people who want things... their lifestyle just prevents them from admitting it, or pursuing it properly. somehow the most important pieces of themselves are what ends up the most neglected. I think that's a piece of why Einar is so important to me... Einar will teach Thorfinn how to do things that he is actually meant to be able to achieve. the tasks are simple, and useful. someone wants Thorfinn to do these things successfully, and he’s capable of producing positive, tangible results. he’s accomplishing things, and he has someone who will be happy about it now. his reward for this isn’t just an addiction to the vague promise of catharsis that will never come. and it makes a huge difference when Einar is patient, and explains things, and isn’t mean to him if Thorfinn gets something wrong. Thorfinn doesn’t have to constantly feel like garbage. he doesn’t feel like he has to hurt people constantly, just to prove he isn’t garbage. literally, the value of what he can accomplish with his own two hands is right there in front of him. he can see his progress, and Einar is proud of both of them for what they’re doing together. as a person, Einar is 100% genuine, and that is incredibly valuable. and because he's like that, we finally get to see someone truly connect with Thorfinn. sure, Thorfinn has met people in the past who wanted to reach out and access all of this, but Einar is the one who really commits to the work of excavating these parts of Thorfinn. he's determined to meet him for real, and become his friend. but a hope like this is terrifying to have, because of how easily you know it can be destroyed. now that Thorfinn has something of value in his life, he has to face the reality of how hard protecting it will be, if he meets even one other person that currently is the way he used to be. for every crime he ever committed, that's one more thing he has to be afraid of now. it's unrealistic to expect to be able to suppress the full force of human hatred with more violence of your own. so how do you protect the things you love, which have become so valuable to you? how to you avoid grief? what do you do with grief when it is unavoidable? how do you keep yourself from falling back into the cycle of violence? these have always been central questions in this narrative... from the first moment, to now.
@@eunocicada62 I deeply appreciate the vote of confidence, but when it comes to making videos, I don't really know how. I've just got like, none of the time, equipment, or skills. the only video on my channel right now is a hideous little slideshow that I made just to dump comments onto, so I could collect a lot of my thoughts on the first season of Vinland Saga in one place, but even that was hurried together in between long 3rd shift work, and trying to get a solid day's sleep. I have a lot of time to write during those shifts, but writing really is the only place where my abilities lie. ^^;
We have no enemies brothers! I love the character growth pf Thorfin, him alongside Myamoto in Vagabond are my favourite character developments in all of manga. I have learned a lot from them and still do. People hate it as they want escapism, they don't want to ask themselves questions, a lot of people reject change, and it is sad. Great video!
I don’t know if it’s even about the lack of violence or action anymore… I think the people that hate Vinland Saga probably have never done something they truly regret and had the desire to become a kinder, better person. At it’s core this is a story about redemption and forgiveness, and it tells that story perfectly.
Tbh they can't even use the violence argument anymore since I'd argue that season 2 had a smaller but still decent chunk of action still (but mostly character development, and the action in season 2 is played more brutally than in season 1), I feel like they honestly just hate for your reason and to act like they're different
I'm sorry I burned down your village and killed and slaughtered men women children and animals. I'm trying to change now so I have no enemies. I hope you understand
23:14 I don’t even think that the show is just saying “violence is bad”. Even Thorfinn admits to Canut that while he doesn’t understand his decisions, he doesn’t necessarily disagree or reject them saying “your world will help many while hurting few”. Thorfinn understands the inevitability that Canut as king will have to use violence to achieve his goals, he does not condemn him for it. He even says that violence is a “last resort” not “not an option at all”, as an individual he simply doesn’t want to take part in that violence, because he has come to learn first hand and trough his new friends what the cost of that violence is, and it is simply not worth the cost to him.
Honestly, Vinland Saga S2 was quite beautiful to me. After I finished season 1 (which I heavily enjoyed for its slightly more realistic action compared to most anime I’ve watched) I went online and saw lots of people hated the second season. I thought to drop it but I watched it anyway. Had no regrets. I actually enjoyed watching thorfinn and Anar go about farming and getting closer. And also Thorfinns realisation of how he has no enemies. Also Omar was the fucking goat.
@@coldeed There's a difference between having enemies and being someone's enemy. Of course he has made himself to be a lot of people's enemy and the manga acknowledges it and later even directly explores it. Thorfinn is no paragon and one of the questions the manga asks is if redemption is even possible. What I think the answer is - not really, but with Thorfinn's honest change he now aims to better the world slightly, which is a net positive compared to if he just died.
@@stanislavzoldak2198 Utilitarian logic doesn't work here. There would have been a net positive if his mother drowned him in a river. This proves nothing of right and wrong. You could slit his throat and feed him to a farm animal and call that a net positive. It removes a dangerous and violent psycho from the world and it feeds animals which in turn feed others. Utilitarian logic can deem life meaningless and valueless. Death of one can be more valuable than someone else's life. At this point Thorfinn has little value compared to others. His very existence creates a net negative to the world as it stands.
Edgy teenagers will edgy teenage. They started watching for all the graphic violence and general nihilism, so of course a deep journey or repentance and self-realization terrifies them. And they turn that fear into hatred, because they don't want to grow or reflect on themselves.
I really didn’t mind for the farming stuff, as this season had plenty of interesting conflicts to keep me occupied. As for the way Throfinn chooses to live his life onwards is up for debate on how efficient and effective it is, but maybe this is exactly the kind of debate we need to have from time to time. I myself now that this arc made a lot of actual real life people kinder and more patient, so maybe this new direction is doing something right.
The farming stuff is fine in the anime because its quick. The manga was monthly or bi monthly per chapter when farmland saga started. So imagine the arc on the farm lasting for like 2 years. Also, the series kinda did a 180 by having almost no fighting after nonstop action. I was a teenager back then so I did not like it but now I appreciate it. Although I still don't agree with Thorfin or his fathers way of life.
You don't have to be a snobby, big brain Seinen enjoyer to be smart enough to enjoy Vinland Saga S2. I could barely wait for the next episode to come out every week, there's more than enough plot to be hooked on it, even if the stakes don't come just from action. In season 2 the characters lives are on the line, if not literally then in the form of the new life they live, their home. There are always well established consequenses for if something goes wrong, someone will suffer even if you don't believe Thorfinn might die. Almost more than the first, the Thorfinn being a pacifist just enhances how powerless he is. He basically starts off as a child again, having to learn how to overcome obstacles, it's great. Put Thorfinn from the middle of season 1 into slavery and there's basically no stakes, who cares, he'd be a god in paper chains.
i get what everyone else in the comments is saying about thorfinn's complete refusal to use violence being a bad thing as violence needs to be used in some situations, but maybe thorfinn's supposed to still be incomplete and must learn the necessary balance between violence and non violence (havent actually watched video just scrolled comments so sorry if this is stupid)
To any anime onlys that are still put off by the direction of season 2, as a manga reader, the best fights come after thorfinn leaves the farm. Stick with it, just because Thorfinn don’t kill anymore doesn’t mean he ain’t still whooping ass. He’s son of Thors the troll after all.
Man please keep up the good work. You have some of the most intelligent scripts and well crafted videos. This is the first time I felt a NEED to support a content creator. Looking forward to see more.
Love the video. Violence has always been a topic that I've had mixed opinions on and Vinland Saga definitely has me thinking. I love the manga and loved this video. I really liked how respectful you were when presenting opinions. Honestly, I gotta learn to think like you do lol
I actually was cursing canoute. And saying thorrfinns gonna fuck you up. And then I realized how I was so easily influenced to WANT thorfinn to fight. I wasnt thinking of his soul..I was thinking it would be stasfiying. 😢 I stop and felt bad
As a huge fan of vinland saga s2, i think one thing it didnt do so well was the transition from s1 to s2 from the prospective of the viewer. Because at the end of s1 askeladd died a hero by saving wales, the prince and ridding the world of an evil king through an act of violence. Thus creating the problem of a country without a leader and solving it by letting the prince take his life, which is again an act of violence. Whether or not the viewer is subconsciously or consciously thinking about it, violence saved a lot of people and allowed askeladd to redeem himself. And thats where the disconnect we have toward thorfinn begins because when askeladd died, his whole world came coming down and realizing just maybe that violence might not be the answer. While we think the opposite. We needed a scene like when ketil beat arnheid half to death. Which many agreed that within a series so violent and bloody that this scene was the most horrifying. If we had more of these before the transition into the farming sim in s2 then it wouldve made us more opened to the idea of having violence be a back drop to the story going forward. Ofc the author consciously wanted the shift to be abrupt so its not a fault of the story telling. But since the author is himself a pacifist and wanted to create a story depicting the journey of becoming one. I would assume he wanted more people to expenerice his story and to become one or atleast be opened to the idea. And if thats the objective then having a sudden shift with no reason for the viewer to hate violence is tough and will/has proven to be unsuccessful for some people who dropped the series.
coming from someone whoread the manga the reason i droped the series is because thorfinns extreme pacisfism in the face of a logical problem got to be too much.for example, thorfinn wants to create a new society in vinland, so how will it be run?he talks to halfdan and he tells him tldr: kingdoms run on a monopoly of violence for compliance, and thorfinnjust says ill be different. or the fact that other people RIGHTFULLY point out that hes running an experiment with other peoples lives about whether or not violence is needed in vinland,regardless of the possibility of encountering people or situations that require violence to deal with.The mangas world is actively showing the reader why thorfinns ideals dont work and thorfinn has no logical way to respond.
@-nyte2063 i got a bit of that frustration in the 2nd season but overall isnt that a good problem to have? Its a tough fundamental problem without an esay solution that he'll have to solve if he wants to justify his way of life. Its not like thorfin cant find a solution because the series is still ongoing. Itll force him to grow and what more can u ask for in terms of character development.
Honestly, my critic against Thorfinn's pacifist ideology is the main reason i am very excited for the next season. I cannot imagine how can a person operate under such harsh moral compass. Do you just run away forever? Don't you ever need to stand your ground? These are questions that needs to be answered and Vinland is trying to present these answers from the view of a pacifist
Legitimately he already lost me when he put his life on the line to save the lives of the people who enslaved him, repeatedly sexually assaulted his friend, and then beat that friend to death for appearing to have the desire of not being property anymore. This brutal depiction of slavery and pacifism is weird combination for me to digest. I don’t even like violence nor do I necessarily want to see an action packed anime. Pacifism to this degree just makes absolute no sense to me. If this wasn’t a fictional story no way would things have worked out so well.
I’m sure he eventually does. After all, his father had the same philosophy yet defended himself, his son, and all of those with him against Askeladd and his crew. He didn’t kill anyone, but fought all the same.
I read the manga up to volume 26 (27 still has to be published in my native language), yes the goal of the protagonist is an idealistic version of pacifism, but the point of the author is that getting there is very hard, but not impossible. In season 2, Thorfinn is working towards that ideal, but he is still far from it there have been still moment in which he had to resort to violence in season 2 and there will be more. The author views violence as a never-ending cycle and for Thorfinn it will be very difficult to break it. Also the thing about shonen and seinen and generally the target demographics, it's very difficult to actually what categorize a manga as and most publishers are willing to publish works that do not fit the typical crieria of the works aimed at that target demographic and most mangakas would change from a publishing house of a target demopgraphic to another because it's more convenient.
I said once that Monster (a seinen manga) is basically Death Note but for big bois. I still stand by that claim, since there are a bunch of darker messages in it, however, I don't say that to disrespect Death Note at all. Death Note was the second anime I watched, and it helped me question a lot of things in life I normally wouldn't. Monster, though, takes that a bunch of steps further and I started to enjoy seinen along with shounen.
I personally thought they killed it! Vinland saga has creeped it's way up to my favorite manga right now, and I thought mappa did such a great job with season 2, my only gripe is that I wish they made the characters a little more gritty like in the manga I felt some of the facial expressions didn't hit the same as they did in the manga but it's such a small complaint.
@@hello-gx6oi Well Vinland Saga's Farmland arc in the Manga is really detailed with complex facial expressions. Everything is filled to the brim with alot of shading and character. So it's understandable that they couldn't animate everything identical to it's Manga counterpart. But the artwork for the Anime still looks good in my oppion. Season 2 is even more detailed than season 1.
It's funny how many people hate the nonviolence aspect. It's essentially Vash in Trigun but edgier, or a lot of the points in FMA but a little more radical and adult. Thorfinn's change is neither fast nor slow. His ego was catastrophically damaged, and he had to rebuild who he was. The next arc is a bit slow, as he gathers resources and people for his journey. The ending is... Ehhhhhh... Realistic. Generally vinland saga is ambiguous/agnostic to its stance on war and violence, despite having a strong antiviolence message. Thorfinn embodies an ideal and represents something i truly feel and understand and resonate with as to why someone may not want for violence and hate, and ye lt is never portrayed in media, and that's one of familiarity with violence and hatred, one's relationship with trauma and the desire to seek a different option. Most of the time pacifists are pacifists in fiction because they just "are" or because they have role models that are pacifists, and so on... The other part not talked about is the amount of power and strength it requires to be a pacifist,when most of the time they seem to exist out of sheer plot armour and idealism.
Some people are so broken in by this world, that they vicariously live in power fantasies, not for the thrill of being powerful and for the simple pleasure of it, but for the assurance that they won't be stepped on and left all alone. They are one of the few humans I pity without remorse, because they are animals given awareness, without the wisdom to realize that life isn't a competition. They have this beautiful mind, yet all they use it on is trying to rationalize their bad lot in life. How they were born without talent, and they answer with anger instead of letting go of their need to be liked and cherished by others. What a pity, the way humans have awareness, yet don't use it to become aware that they are no longer animals. They wat they idolize those that lean into their talents and control the other animals. They dream of being so, for in that dream, their existential loneliness does not exist. So when they see a human let go of their egocentric nature, in a way they know they'd never do themselves, they rage. They rage and shout and curse, for they crave the freedom they know they will never touch, so long they cling to the animal inside.
Yes, Everything in this show/manga is brilliant but the only problem that i have is that the author should make a distinction between fighting as a sport and fighting for violence and killing. Because there are lot of times when the conflict could be solved if Thorfinn could show his strength as a sport, but he doesnt and the conflict keeps on going. Thats the only part that frustrated me
I see what you’re saying however I think that distinction can’t be made in this time, because for these men sport and violence are one and the same. We have been able to seperate the two, guy gets knocked out alright that’s it you win get back. But these guys are betting on Thorfinn dying from these punches, I think Yukimura probably knows and acknowledges that physical sport is a skill that adds to human life in todays world :)
To add on to mugenbops comment: Thorfinn doesn't want his goal to be achieved through intimidation or because people respect him for his strength. To create a more peaceful world conflict must be resolved in a way full of kindness and love. Otherwise it'd just turn into another 'survival of the strongest'-kinda world
Because theres a big section of anime fans who are pissed of angry people who hate the world and want it all to burn. They wish they were big and strong and could enact gratitous violence on everyone to show how big and strong they really are in this totally unfair world. And they escape into anime for that release. So they push back against anything that rejects those ideals. Vinland Saga is set up, from the first episodes, as a complete rejection of war and violence. Your meant to watch season 1 and feel sympathy and pain for Thorfinn... not because his Dad died, but because this poor kids thirst for revenge is leading him down the path his Father didn't want for him... and it a road paved with nothing but loss and pain. But the aforemention section of fans instead... live vicariously through Thorfinn and think his quest for revenge is fantastic and brilliant and make him a good character. They wanted Thorfinn to kill Askeladd, whilst your meant to dread the moment he does.
But thorfin alone didn t want to kill him in first place. You could see that when he didn t attack askeladd while he was pretending to sleep. Fair duel was just excuse because thorfin didn t want to accept that he didn t want to kill him. That was his only way of living at that time. Also we have here break of cicle. Thorfinn didn t do what askeladd did because unlike him thorfinn had father figure who teached him before. That why i think he didn t try to stab him there.
@@tomasdqwx2781 Nah he totally wanted to kill him its just his twisted idea of what a "Warrior" was made it so the only way he could accept it would be victory in a duel
I listen to a few of the Osts from Vinland Saga and alot of them soothe me so much, particularly "Ahead of the Road". So when Yukimura says he calms himself by think that he doesn't have any enemies, I think I get it. Bless this man for making my favorite series❤️
The trash taste podcast made a good point, they did the 1st season so well and so action packed that when it switched they got mad because they only want the violence and not the interesting story
@@mistadude they should have done it like berserk where it started like in the demons and stuff but it goes to before with realistic old war battles and stuff so it made sense to go back into the part it originally was and its not as abrupt, but me personally i love season 2 so much more im not to big on fight scenes except berk manga that shit would make me just sit there taking it in for like 2 mins on one page.
Yeah, transition wrecked it, i think thats the simple reason. Its a brand, so they violated the brand. If there was supposed to be a quick transition from violence, should ahve done it in less episodes rather than a whollee season. Because that set the tone, then they violated it
@@Michael1ndonli I understand people's frustrations but me personally I think their frustrations are fucking retarded it's someone's work they get to do what they want and they should make what they want not what others want.
Funny to see when Eren became a villain because he killed the children and the innocent people, they cheered him on like psychopaths But when Thorfinn a child who knows nothing but anger becomes a philosopher who have a goal to create a peaceful nation, they say it was a stupid main character, Sorry if there is innocent Eren fans, I still full filled with rage after being attacked by toxic yeagerists, even aot ended and fans become better, It wasn't enough for me
I love both stories. There is depth and a whole lot of meaning to both. I liked the farmland season, and I even liked AOT's ending. But the characters can only amount to what the world they were set up to live in would allow them to be. Torfinn in AOT would die as a pacifist,maybe he would side with the vow renouncing war. What I liked in Eren's character is that he refuses to be a scapegoat or to turn the other cheek. Torfinn's growth as a person is commendable and inspiring but just not very realistic for the time that he lived in.
My biggest gripe with Attack on Titan is that killing millions of innocent people is treated like an afterthought by the fandom and the characters. That's why I find most of the cast very unlikable. When you deep it, Eren is the biggest monster in the series and most fans cheer him on because they know his backstory, are living through him, or simply find him attractive.
@kevintanza6968 I agree with you about the fandom. I am one of the people that really love Eren's character but we were meant to pity him for what he became.
This guy really hit the nail in the head, people don't like it cuz they don't believe in pacifism plain and simple. But the story is much more about personal change than pacifism
@@LuisSierra42 its not like they don't even believe it, they don't even stop to think about it. they are controlled by their NPC instincts, and violence its intrinsic to us. if you don´t ever escape your default network, you never reach your humanity.
The fucker killed countless sons, daughters, mothers, fathers and y'all forget that. Then the moron spouts "I have no enemies". He's not a pacifist, he's a weak willed immature guy. He was psychotically violent over emotions he couldn't direct and now he'll be completely spineless and passive because of different emotions. Sure, it's better than mass killing. What's better than him walking away scott free is someone else's son gutting him and moving on with their life. Because at this point it's a dumb story following a man with arguably the worse judgement humanly possible to the point of parody.
I find it funny that you showed the digimon movie at the end. I wanted to comment about how I love the Last Evolution Kizuna and it's message, despite the movie going in a direction I didn't want myself. Personally I really love the movie, I enjoyed most of the story that was told. I want a show or a movie to suprise me, show me things I hadn't been thinking about and Vinland is definitely one of those series for me
I think the people who hates vinland saga are people who shape their entire personality around anime and not having any sort of difficulties in their life which kinda makes vinland saga useless for them
I am going to be honest, I did stop watching it when Thorfinn mentioned he will no longer kill. But, I do see how he ended up being a pacifist and also curious on how he will manage to do so specially war is litterally in his path. Glad I stumbled upon your channel. Thank you
There is more action again too, its framed different, butits argumently heavier. It is a well done way to have him fight every bitwhile keeping that up. And hilde is an amazing character worth it too. and its funadventures and other companions are good too,but damn i love hilde. Theseries still keeps an edge.
I enjoyed season 2. Good video! Arnheid's story in particular was good, it is rare for a story to make me feel so repulsed. She was essentially a sex slave that had lost everything, including her young child, for no reason other than being on the losing side of a conflict she had no say in. Her thousand yard stare while Kettle cried on her in bed conveyed the kind of hell she had lived through. I think the story wanted us to slowly develop empathy for her, to briefly gain hope that she might actually find a better life, and to then use that attachment and shattered hope to make us feel the same righteous rage and bloodlust that Einar felt towards Kettle. It was there to challenge us and make us have to personally face what Thorfinn was saying. Since you brought it up a bit, Berserk would have handled Arnheid's story differently because it has a different theme and lesson. And like you said that's okay, we don't have to agree with what every piece of art wants to convey. Stories will contradict each other. Viewers should appreciate what Vinland Saga wants to tell us even if they don't personally accept the theme or integrate it into their life. I guess to finish, season 1 was more action packed, while season 2 was more thought provoking. I can't say that season 1 made me contemplate life or what I value in the same way.
For those who don't know, anime/manga is called Berserk: Vagabond Saga. It's about a boy, Thorfinn Miyamoto, who fights imaginary enemies as he has no actual enemies.
he's right not all Anime is suppose to be LOVED, I liked the fighting scenes but how it developed just didn't ignite interest. I couldn't watch without breaking 2hrs of astraying from watching episodes of it. it took me forever to watch. Remember the soundtrack & op-ed songs were great. I just can't vibe with the series as a whole cause of outside factors.
I really like the mentality of "I have no enemies" it's there to show as blatant text that this person is willing to swim against the tides of violence. That they are truly strong. Vinland saga is a refreshing take on strength in a medium that really likes to put numbers on how hard you punch. Hoping for a season 3.
Every sweeping social movement starts with a first step that seems crazy at the time. Even knowing historically, a war free world without slaves has not happened, it’s still amazing watching a story about trying to build one.
I don’t understand how anyone who watched season one could be surprised about the direction the story went. Like you’d literally have to watch it with your brain turned off to not see this coming
S2 of Vinland Saga is honestly one of my favorite seasons of any story ever and it made Vinland Saga one of my favorite stories of all time. Absolute peak writing & genius character writing and development! BTW. oh man, One Piece has way more than just violence. OP is so different than 90% of Shonen. Just like Hunter x Hunter.
Honestly this just proves that many people haven't learned from their faults and mistakes. Its more than just a angry teenager who's on a vengeful mission. Season 2 shows you what war leaves behind. Broken people who are either trying to fulfill their purpose and those that are trying to find purpose in a world where any life can be snuff out with no purpose.
Incredible video, great work on this! I LOVE Vinland Saga coming from the anime. The "I HAVE NO ENEMIES" statement was one of the most beautiful moments in anime for me. I have mad respect for the author, and I can't wait for next season!
slept in frequently during s1 and had to rewatch some episodes, great action though! for some reason s2 absolutely glued me to my screen and I was very pleased to get to know the actual thoughts and feelings of our protagonist, only other charakter still alive being probably Knud. I think this Manga and Anime have a little bit of everything for everyone, I personally love both seasons equally because they all add up to the bigger picture. to me it's a story of reinventing yourself and also changing your daily work from something you are just good at into something that also does your very soul good, probably a very nieche and yoga stretch interpretation, but that is something I personally relate to a lot. I haven't spoilered myself with the manga just yet but I really hope that after friendship Thorfinn also gets to experience love and the traumatizing horrors of fatherhood :D
it just goes to show mist anime viewers and manga readers dont actually understand storytelling and just look at things at surface level and spectacle factor
@mugenbop hey I've always wanted to ask you- is your handle at all related to the fighting game engine (which I have loved for the better part of 20 years btw lol)
Never watched the show but I finished the manga and I think it's very reality based on how a person from his time period might come to age. It's honestly really beautiful
It's a good story. The Greek hero type story is boring after a while. This takes place when the story isn't what people expected and should be enjoyed as a different type of story with a different type of thinking.
Then they shouldn't have spent so much time building up a completely different story in season 1. This is a classic bait and with switch. Like the author knew majority of people weren't interested in the story he wanted to tell so he turned into one that would make lots of money. Then when he got his money he changed it into something completely different.
It sounds snobbish to say, but I think you need a certain level of maturity (not dictated by age but experience) to enjoy Vinland Saga and its message. Really don't mean for that to sound as exclusive as it does.
It's a binge watch. If you saw the end of season one. Then waited a half year for season 2....I can understand the shock. But I saw it all within 3 days and I have fallen in love with it. The balance of one self is a concept I love to seek for I have been in ." War" I was a heroin addict in HS during this I had abuse to deal with and then friends leaving me due to me. I got clean.....but 2018 after 8 yrs went back and I sold every last bit of me. Sold my guitar, bass,cymbals anything I could to get heroin. And not even to get high...no I. Needed it to function. It's a world no one should seek. As my name states I love Bleach and how kubo was telling us strength isn't only muscle but the body,mind,and spirit being one. Thorfinn is that as well, I loved the direction...he took it in. Because I craved for thorfinn peace...and I can't wait to finish
I find the criticism that, “it’s impossible to be a pacifist in a world of war and bloodshed” to actually strengthen the story. Thors/Thorfinn’s choice to be pacifists despite the world around them hating and crucifying pacifists just strengthens their philosophy even more. They could be warriors and be rewarded with all the gold and goods they want but they choose to be pacifists because it is the right thing to do, and they are true to their ideas, and shows their true selflessness.
its also just the more difficult path cos of how much violence and warfare is glorified during that time period so to truly avoid hurting or killing everyone while they are all ok with doing the same to you would be much more difficult than if they outright just fight back and slaughter everyone.
Pacifism is not a virtue though. We can all understand how letting a vicious killer go free because you won't exact justice only for him to murder a bunch of people would be very wrong.
the comparison between thorfinn and eren is so accurate. shingeki no kyojin is my all time favorite anime and, vinland saga, my all time favorite manga. i've always been fascinated by thorfinn and eren's destiny. it's the completely opposite yet, when you think about it, they have so much in common...
Vinladn saga is a character study just like vagabond , if you aren't into stories like that don't bother , simple as that but i for one adore stories like that
My friend told me that the season 2 of Vinland saga wasn't bad but there wasn't enough action and nothing much happened. He said that they gave a certain expectation with season 1 with how much action was it. I think some ppl just had such a merit for action and the character doing cool thing. They can't appreciate the character depth and writing. I read a lot of books that have no action or a lot of the scenes don't. But can appreciate the writing intrigued and naturally character growth
I loved both seasons and started reading the manga after season 1. But currently I have to stop, the story and most everything is going great but sadly due to the nature of the manga, a lot of things are up to interpretation with translating it and since I cannot afford the official release, I read the free and totally legal versions online which has the well known issue of tyrannical scantlators. My only criticism of the story is a difference in how we perceive Thors' words. Thorfinn and the story takes it as not fighting at all is the way to go, when going to a strange land that he knows that there are people who could be hostile, he willingly rejected weapons which can be reasonable but even shields and armour. He is opening up himself and more importantly the people who depend on him and follow him to needless violence that they have no choice but to accept since he has left them unprepared, even stopping them from erecting a fence that would at least provide them some protection from wildlife trying to take food and such. Meanwhile in my personal view, a pacifist is someone who has the ability to do harm but abstains, they have the ability to terrorize those around them and use their power for massive gains for themselves but they have the character, honor, morals and strength to abstain from needless violence, to cause no more harm than necessary. I personally do not consider someone who sees someone about to be killed, does nothing about it even when they have the ability to and simply watches as a pacifist but passive. Thorfinn went from one extreme of killing without remorse to the other extreme of having the ability to stop violence in front of himself to either not stopping it or loathing himself for interfering. Thors was unironically perfect, he struck the perfect balance that one needs to be a true pacifist, he had the power both in his body and his words to tyrannize people but used it purely for others, to defend them from attackers or to help them build themselves up, he used violence only in its capacity to help people and abstained from any more than was absolutely necessary. Current Thorfinn vs Thors' ideologies are almost entirely different, Thorfinn is asking people to constantly run away or die, Thors is asking people to stand against evil when necessary but to otherwise do no harm. The criticism of his naiveté is valid to the point that yes there will always be people who wish to harm you but sometimes you either cannot or should not run, if someone is about to kill your child, it is still violence to subdue the would be killer before grabbing your child and yet I don't think there is a single person who would not at least wish they would be able to subdue and stop the killer. Of course Thorfinn is still growing as this is in the middle of his story and I hope to see him strike the balance his father did and he has already grown lots past his past self, its not like I think season 1 Thorfinn had a good ideology either I just personally see a lot more room for him to grow.
In real viking stories this seigeing problem was adressed by way of gold tax, a certain amount of gold would be given to the families of the vanquished, here not so much its either murder, or avenge
I really like S2, even if the message of "I have no enemies" is something I dont agree with. Though it is ideally that we dont have enemies, the truth is that theres going to be people who are outright malicious and cruel. Forgiveness is a virtue but it should have limits. Growing up, there are many people in my life who hurt me (and I hurting others). While I have forgave people who hurted me, theres some who just dont deserve it. I highly doubt these people are clinically diagnosed sociopaths/psychopaths but they are just not worth forgiving. You cant demand forgiveness nor respect so its better to treat them as threats I might take the message too literal but I still believe that you're going to have enemies, likely in the form of people who wants to make you their enemy (and refuses to see otherwise).
no, just no. First of all I *do* have a degree in philosophy, wrote my dissertation on ethics and it's not some kind of settled "everything has been said" type thing to say that violence is wrong or bad. I've also read the sagas of the Icelanders and related works, and I've an internet connection so some basic history isn't beyond me, so let me say that the author seems historically illiterate when they try to argue for pacifism, especially in this time. Pacifism would have just lead to you, and your family and friends, being enslaved or killed, and they wouldn't randomly release slaves after a fistfight. Thralls just weren't viewed as the same kind of people as everyone else.
@@chrisgraham2327 His point still stands. True pacifism does never work. And I mean pacifism to a degree of outright refusing to defend yourself like Thors did and Thorfinn does with the 100 hits. In reality after 100 hits comes so many hits until you go down. Refusing to attack or misuse your power is legit but pacifsm is undefendable (literally). Being strong means to be able to do something and being wise is to know when to use it. Never or always using your power is foolish. Not being able to is weakness.
I have a hilarious history with this vinland saga. Idk why but i used dislike the character designs (i don't even know why i hated it im sorry 😭). But what happened was my younger brother made me watch it. So i ain't gonna lie i absolutely loved season 1. It was so good that i just kept rewatching it. I absolutely loved ending of s1 to bcz yk. Then came season 2. It was totally different and first i was confused but as i watched through the season i thought it was perfect. It had alot of dept and meaning in it. Redemption, regret, the path to become a better person. It gave me warmth. I could feel the emotions of the characters. Now only difference between me and my brother is now i love it and now he hates it 😂. I then started reading the manga and now all caught up.
I love vinladn, when the frist season ends I went to the manga inmediatly and was confusing at the beging it feel like another show but when Torfin says his iconic frase I was in tears it was beatifull and I'm triying to make it a part of my life
I like your thoughts and arguments on most aspects, but 21:19 that bit about people not being able to look away from violence I partly rejected. I think many look because it's our nature to stay safe and by looking we retain an edge in escaping the situation should it threaten us. Most people I know who don't enjoy violence as a matter of consumption turn their head away out of reaction. People do often film rather than help - because one of those options gets us hurt. It takes a true warrior to step in and break off a conflict.
Of course your right that point was only to reinforce humanities enjoyment of it hundreds of years later, I personally if I feel a fight about to start I get out of the room. But having grown up in a small town where people wanted to get into fights cuz; nothing else to do was not uncommon so I feel people crave it as well. Once someone approached a friend on a night out and said “which one of you guys wants to get hit tonight?” Of course we want to stay safe by observation too, and that need to observe may be because of your location where you live and where you are at the time
I love Vinland Saga but I'm kind of in the "Wait and See" camp. "I have no enemies" is a little naive but that's why only a true warrior could live by that statement. I have to wonder how and if he'll manage to achieve his goals without selfishly hurting others or allowing the people who believe in him to be hurt.
I find joy in “wondering about it” though. The show excels at presenting questions and showing us how its characters act upon their answers. Like, who is more naive between Thorfinn and Canute? Another way I’d put it is that judging Thorfinn’s pacifism “naive” does not invalidate his quest to achieve it, or be the measure I’d judge the other aspects of the show by.
I can understand what you mean and hopefully this gives a more level of understanding. In order to understand the "I have no enemies" phrase you would need to venture out of the anime and look for answers outside. One concept I find it being compared to is Stoicism which is an ancient philosophy from Greece, this could give you a more clear idea why that phrase is more important than just Thors said it. Its why Thorfinn doesn't know where to start and takes so long for S2 to develop which I even found it a little difficult but rewarding when it happened. At the end of the day I can see why younger or less aware individuals consider S2 as "mid" or made the MC look like a coward.
I feel like people (one of my close friends included) who strongly disliked season 2 were watching it for amazingly animated action rather then what the story really is about which is human weakness. The whole search for being a true warrior and the up and down turbulence the characters shown to search for it go through is less about being a “warrior” in the classic sense but about managing and conquering the weakness we all have in us in varying respects.
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People misinterpret this , yes you have no enemies , but yes you also have people who wanna see you fall. They are not enemies , just obstacles in your way. So do not hate them like enemies , over come them like obstacles
That's such a stoic philosophy. I love that
real
I never even looked at it that way well said
Damn dis actually good
Yeah , hate will only make you take things personal , nothing is personal , just people trying to survive
I was 16 when I first watched Vinland sagas anime, and Thors speech at the beginning of the series, went in one ear and out the other, and I became quickly absorbed in the violence of the show. After finishing season one of the anime I quickly jumped on my laptop to continue reading the series. I was completely and utterly confused by the huge change that happened in Thorfin. I was angry, I thought why isn’t he trying to escape? Why isn’t he fighting his way out of this captivity he finds himself trapped in. I was upset, but I did not stop reading. I had to figure out what was going on where this is going. It was very confusing and I didn’t understand it, until out nowhere, it just all clicked, it all made sense. I understood what thors meant at the beginning of the series and I understood Thorfinn’s actions. When I first got to farmland I felt like a young Thorfinn having Thors tell him that he has no enemies I didn’t understand it, I realized it was maturity. Reading Vinland saga helped me mature, it helped me control my anger issues, and it helped me become the man I am today. I am now 21 and I still have a lot to learn but I have made a lot of progress thanks to Vinland saga.
How the fk were you 16 when you watched the anime, when it was released in 2019? Lmao, nice made up story
@@nickzx1082 They could have watched it before their 17th B-Day 🤓
Bro get a real father figure
@@hippopilot6750 Lmao 😂, it’s cheesy but manga definitely has life lessons
Even if they hate Vinland Saga, i won't hate them. I have no enemies to hate
Interestingly, even though Thorfinn and Askeladd's relationship is complicated, I always felt that Askeladd in his own way, was trying to get through to Thorfinn to stop this path of vengeance. Askeladd didn't want Thorfinn to fall down where he had. Askeladd hates himself and hates his father. And he became the very thing he hated, a viking. I believe that's why he was always so harsh and even cruel to Thorfinn. I don't think even Askeladd realized it, but he truly cared about Thorfinn deep down. Be it in a twisted way. He looked out for Thorfinn and didn't kill him or leave him to starve. I believe part of that, was because of his huge respect for Thorfinn's father , Thors.
Also, don't forget that he was ready to be assassinated when Thorfinn went to his tent at night. Askeladd was always looking for the next way to die, and that's why his plans where so unhinged and he didn't care which enemies he was making. He honestly didn't even want for Bjorrn (was it Bjorrn?) to take Thorfinn hostage, even when Thors was about to defeat him. It happened and he had to show ruthlessness in front of his men, but he was ok with losing the fight fairly. He even accepted to let everyone else go, and I think it's because he always valued anyone's life more than his own. He just got into a bad crowd and so he always prioritized his crew's needs, to the detriment of innocents, but if there was nothing to gain, he always tried to avoid violence.
Because people allways want to see the superlative in storys. They cant enjoy a shonen/seinen story without a protagonist that doesn't want to fight. They grown up with storys of bloodshed and action. With worldly or uninersal destruction and risks. But hey, not everyone has to love this story. That Aot was for other people, is Vinland Saga for me.
Musashi's last arc where he doesnt wanna fight anymore is one of the best arcs I've read. Thorfiin pretending to be his daddy is ridiculous, childish and boring.
@@kollen5952Thorfinn pretending to be Thors? Ah, yes, I remember when Thors said that he wanted to go to Vinland and travelled all the way to Greece to get the horns of a not-so-mythical animal to then sell them, so that he could get the resources to travel and colonize Vinland. How could've I missed this? Truly a carbon copy.
@@kollen5952 didn’t know it was childish to not want to kill people
@@calebreddinger2444 the way the copy paste dude does is childish. The author is a bad writter, he couldnt make plausible thorffin's arc. Seriously, this manga comes not even close to berserk or vagabond, in fact, it looses even to kingdom wich is awesome by the way, I recommend it, unlike the trash Vinland, wich is a bad manga on itself
@@a_new_dude7794 the way the copy paste dude does is childish. The author is a bad writter, he couldnt make plausible thorffin's arc. Seriously, this manga comes not even close to berserk or vagabond, in fact, it looses even to kingdom wich is awesome by the way, I recommend it, unlike the trash Vinland, wich is a bad manga on itself
"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them"
- Miyamoto Musashi (The Book of Five Rings)
"I have no enemies, I killed all the kids too"
@@coldeed The old Roman strategy, "I have no enemies because I conquered all of them"
The most common defense of a man who resorts to violence (say, Ketil) I hear is, "he's the product of his age, even though he abused this one slave, he's a good man because others were far worse." I think therein lies the trap. Wise men of all cultures, religions and ages - Ancient Greece, India, China, Japan, Middle East, Europe - were not the product of their age - they rose above it. An average man bows down to what is "normal" in his age, and by doing so he's just a herd animal doing what everyone else is doing. A wise man's actions are timeless and hold equal value in any age, past, present or future. And they all agree on this:
There's nothing amazing about violence. Skill is admirable, but hurting another human being, or yourself, for that matter? We all do that in some measure. It's the most average thing in the world. To realise this means first to sink into the depths of your own personal hell, and to rise from it is to walk the path to wisdom. And Thorfinn is a great depiction of that.
He also still deserves capital punishment
Gotta say, people saying the farming arc is slow and boring is hilarious when you consider that farming is often seen as the same despite how crucial it is to civilization.
Thors: Who are your enemies, Thorfinn?
Thorfinn: Those idiots who hate on my show
Thors: Good boy
What go me into Vinland Saga , was the deeper character moments and deep themes/messages. I feel that was always present , even in season 1 . Sure season 1 had more action, but it was never about the action . The story has always tried showing the horrific reality of war and what it dose to those involved and those affected . Thorfinn's father planted those seeds of those messages into Thorfinn from the very beginning, that Thorfinn forgot until the end of season 2.
It's about becoming a better person. You can't change the world but you can change yourself. Imagine if everyone lived in a similar way? Sure we get angry at each other and may even hate others. But that doesn't give anyone the right to physically hurt another person. Everyone who's hurt another person has some kind of excuse. The only reason you should harm another is in the defense of yourself or another.
real life vikings got murdered in vinland by natives. The message is very dumb in this manga's context
The issue i have is that as great as pacifism is there are situations where you honestly dont have the luxury to be a pacifist, ive always preferred the warrior in a garden concept over complete pacifism.
thats exactly what thorfinn is. being incapable of harm isnt the same as choosing to do no harm.
@@zkkomputer733 I don't mean just doing harm, I mean killing someone.
Only someone who's lived a very privileged life would mistake pacifism for being passive against a threat. Ironically this modern short-sighted pacifism would bring more violence and suffering to the weak. But hey, I guess I don't get it because Midland Saga is too mature for me.
@@hornymonk23 that's what I'm saying.
@@hornymonk23 Ikr, all these people on their high horse with their superior "maturity" are seriously clueless about how immature they are.
I wrote this up in another comments section in response to someone saying that they didn't find Thorfinn's character development believable in the second season. figured I'd share it here:
I think a lot of Thorfinn's current characterization makes more sense when you actually fully understand how Thorfinn was capable of ending up the way he was in the first season. his character is legitimately fascinating. even starting from the age of six, Thorfinn was already a prideful kid. like, even when he was back in the village where he was raised. we see it in the first couple episodes... he doesn't want to believe that their people ran away to Iceland, thinking that it's disgraceful, despite the reality that Thors deserted the Jomsviking. at the age of six, this simply hasn't been properly explained to him yet, and in fact, Thors doesn't talk about his time with the Jomsviking at all. but Thorfinn still absorbs attitudes via cultural osmosis from his surroundings. and when his father is called to war, Thorfinn starts playing rougher with the other kids as a kind of mimicking of what he thinks it means to qualify as strong enough to be a soldier. and, like many children, he's in the part of life where feeling angry goes hand in hand with fighting or roughhousing, because it's instant catharsis for his little kid frustrations.
Thors is interesting because he goes against the dominant cultural attitude that surrounds him, as shown very plainly when the town celebrates that there's going to be a war, while he stands dejected in their midst. and both of his children are influenced by this culture... we see it in Ylva when she asks about getting a slave, (and we also see how Thors differs from the dominant cultural mindset when pays for the freedom of a dying man in episode 1), and we see it in Thorfinn when he goes looking for the dagger. once again, Thors differs, and he has to try and teach Thorfinn better, but he has limited time. and Thorfinn has a point. Thors is about to go to war. his job there will be to kill the enemy. regardless of how Thors, as an adult, intends to finagle this situation going forward, Thorfinn doesn't know what's going on in his head. and we even see Thors stumble over his words several times while trying to convey this. I think this is because Thors's pacifism is a conclusion that he came to on his own, intuitively, and after a lot of experience. and unless a person has been through his same experiences, it's very hard to make them understand what he sees.
by the time Thors dies, he has still yet to say anything that would truly convince Thorfinn of his pacifistic point of view. this is actually a very clever bit of writing, because it basically communicates to the audience "I know you won't believe this idea without proof" and via Thorfinn, the story then intends to provide it. but first, Thorfinn is further disincentivized from considering Thors's perspective by the way that this philosophy fails him. if Thors dying was the result of his pacifistic approach, then it didn't really do him any good, did it? to six year old Thorfinn, his father's method was proven useless, in the most dramatic way possible. Thorfinn still misses his father, so he still tries, to some degree, to emulate his father's conduct. that's why he demands to fight Askeladd in a duel. and yet, you can tell that Thorfinn is meshing this with the might-makes-right landscape of his culture. he hasn't been convinced that there's any good in reconciliation, or taught in a way he can understand... and so the duel, as a gesture, is hollow. the homage is an imperfect attempt to replicate the actions of someone he loved, without truly grasping the root motivations behind it all. but then there's still the intrigue of why his father would say these things in the first place. that's what keeps those words lingering in the back of his mind, long after his father is gone.
I also think it's interesting how we, as the audience, can clearly see the position of Thors in terms of the world and it's attitudes. Thors is a man with an uncommonly kind and gracious perspective, given his culture. honestly, the idea that Thors could arrive at this perspective all on his own is why we can believe that Thorfinn might improve someday too. Thors is proof that even violent men can atone and become better... he didn't start out perfect either. but in the moment where they clash, when you contrast Thors with Askeladd and his crew, and the way they conduct themselves, you can see why a man like Thors would be needed. the world needs people like Thors, specifically to counteract this nefarious element. Thors dying robs the world of a valuable perspective, because men like Askeladd also exist.
if you already know why Thors was valuable, then watching Thorfinn throughout season 1 is frustratingly tragic... but if you don't understand Thors at first, and you need a bit more convincing, then watching Thorfinn over the rest of the first season is the proof of what Thors knew. Thors is proven right because Thorfinn does everything wrong. and one of Thorfinn's strongest and most defining traits as a protagonist is his tenacity. he tries very hard, gets very far, and never gives up. due to this, Thorfinn stays on the path that runs counter to his father's philosophy, displaying it's every flaw as thoroughly as possible, from the start of that road, all the way to the bitter end. if a story is going to preach peace, it has to put it's money where it's mouth is, and acknowledge all the aspects of life on earth that make peace so difficult to achieve. that's what Thorfinn is there to experience, and without his determination, we wouldn't be able to see all of it.
(to be continued)
(continued)
when it comes to the subject of Thorfinn's manipulation... I do think that, past a certain point, Thorfinn is at least partially responsible for the choices he's made. but in particular, when it comes to Thorfinn, I think it's more important to talk about culpability, and how messy that idea becomes around his character.
like... I think most people can agree that when a six year old child watches his father die, declares his intent to duel his father's killer to the death, and then an adult takes that seriously and tells him "not until you've accomplished something on the battlefield," that constitutes an obvious power imbalance that the adult in the situation is exploiting. the adult knows how ridiculous that request is, but the kid doesn't. that kid is about to put themselves in danger, and there's an imbalance in who knows it. even if having a mature perspective was the only unequal aspect, this would count as manipulation, to a grossly unfair degree, but Askeladd also has physical strength and coordination on his side... there is no part of this scenario that Thorfinn can control.
and that's a tricky statement, because technically, he could just walk away. but what six year old could you actually expect to ignore a smug adult who is consciously pushing all of his buttons? when I say that Thorfinn has no control, I mean over anything. to begin with, this is a matter of wounded pride... Thors was killed, and Askeladd says it's because he was naive. Thorfinn was taken hostage, and Askeladd says it's because he was weak. and now Thorfinn feels like, if he wants to counteract any of those statements, he has to prove himself against the ways that Askeladd is judging him. if Askeladd is the one setting the standard, then as Thorfinn ages, when do his actions become his own?
I'm asking mostly hypothetically, because I think the ambiguity works well here... and it's also the nearest we'll get to the truth. as Thorfinn grows up, there's this slow slide into worse and worse behavior, but the presence of all of it is based on his guidance, or lack thereof. he literally wouldn't even physically be in these situations if the adults around him didn't put him there... and that's just a fact, regardless of intent. the adults around him may not know or care what this is doing to him, but it's still happening. in some ways, this concept doesn't even change with modernization... many abusers wouldn't self-describe as abusing someone while they're doing it. and because of this, there isn't really a moment you can pinpoint at which the culpability 100% shifts over to Thorfinn. even when he's old enough to seem less like a little kid to us, we still know how his history led him to this point, with no real opportunity for his trajectory to change. I think that's the point of the scene in the village, with that woman who treats Thorfinn's wounds.
Thorfinn was probably around ten years old at that point in time... so he's already spent years around Askeladd, absorbing what his expectations are, and learning that he's never good enough. and the effect that this produces, is that Thorfinn is already incapable of choosing something better than suffering.
while following Askeladd, his needs are consistently neglected, he's the subject of mockery, he goes unfed, he isn't given a roof over his head or safe place to sleep... under any other circumstances this would qualify as abuse. once again, just because the times set a precedent for adult pirates to display this kind of behavior naturally, that doesn't mean it damages a person any less to be subjected to those conditions. and in this village, Thorfinn is offered all of the things he lacks with Askeladd... a bed, new clothes, food, hygiene, medical care, basic kindness, and he doesn't even think about truly accepting it. he's already rejecting practical decency, in favor of an increasingly difficult set of chores, where the only reward is a slim chance at catharsis. you can literally offer Thorfinn better rewards, incentives, and treatment, and he'll snub it outright. he's been trained not to take it.
by this point, I think Thorfinn's self esteem has been eroded. Thorfinn has been told that his dad died because he was weak enough to get captured and held hostage. so by now, Thorfinn probably believes that it's at least a little bit his fault. and for the entire time that Thorfinn was pursuing duels with Askeladd, Askeladd and his men were judging him by an adult standard of violence. and whenever Thorfinn failed to produce an adult’s level of violence, they’d literally laugh at him, even while he was being hurt. you can tell that Thorfinn blamed himself for not measuring up, because he kept trying to measure up… as though he really thought he was supposed to be able to.
in Thorfinn’s mind, he’s been failing for his entire life. literally Askeladd used him as an expendable guy for scouting because he’d rather not risk anyone who actually mattered, and then he acted surprised every time Thorfinn came back alive. but Thorfinn kept believing that once he defeated Askeladd, that would be proof that he’d finally gotten strong enough to erase his past weakness. if he could just kill the guy who’s been laughing at him the entire time, then it would be Thorfinn’s turn to set the standards. and so, all he wants is a duel. and in order to get a duel, he has to do what Askeladd says. his wants are now Askeladd's wants. and nothing can alter his priorities from the outside.
I always think about how unsettling it would be to pull Thorfinn aside at the age of, say, eight or something? and ask him to explain what he's doing and why. hearing his child voice explain it would be very creepy. and as he grows older, this doesn't change. his motives, and way of thinking about his actions, remain very childish, and very dependent on someone else, even into his teenage years. he's a puppet, and it doesn't even take much to see the strings. and it might even be easier for Thorfinn to cope with what he's done by allowing things to remain this way. if he doesn't have to think about any of the things he's been doing, because someone else is giving him his instructions, then he doesn't have to wrestle with the morality of whether or not he should be doing what he's doing. and in the end, it's like Askeladd says in the episode where he finally gives Thorfinn that duel... "everyone is a slave to something."
Thorfinn has literally been told what to do all his life... he's never really decided his own actions all this time. so as unhealthy as it is, it makes total sense for him to end up enslaved on this farm. this is well within his comfort zone. and Askeladd had to have known what he was doing... but he's a fascinating character, in large part because a lot of his motives remain ambiguous. I mean, Askeladd was awake when Thorfinn snuck up on him with a sword... we could assume that Askeladd would let Thorfinn kill him in his sleep, given what Askeladd did to his dad, but Askeladd also could've simply been curious to see whether Thorfinn would do it or not... or he may have believed that Thorfinn wasn't capable of it, whether due to his age, or his father's values. we already know that Askeladd was intrigued by Thors's values, and that intrigue might've carried over to Thorfinn a small bit. we never get an explanation, so we can only speculate.
but I think we have to be careful not to project too much fond sentiment onto Askeladd... he's a smart tactician, and when he tells his uncle that he's using his slave wrong, he literally says "anyone can be useful if you know how to handle them" and it cuts directly to Thorfinn. Askeladd knows he's being manipulative, especially during the duel, when he baits Thorfinn's anger by calling into question whether he even killed Thors in the first place. Askeladd also consistently sets Thorfinn up with near impossible missions, like bringing him a head with a helmet, or killing Thorkell, and then his crew retreats before Thorfinn can even extract himself from the situation. Askeladd has no qualms with presuming that he died... and he keeps tasking him with missions like these, which are designed to leave Thorfinn constantly falling just a little bit short. to me, this high bar dangled just ever so slightly out of reach is part of the manipulation... because Askeladd knows just where to place it so that Thorfinn has to keep striving for something unobtainable. and the longer this goes on, the less possible it is for Thorfinn to give this up, because if he does, then all of this will have been for nothing. Thorfinn has already done too much... if nothing comes of it, then he will have been a monster for no reason.
(to be continued)
(continued)
so by the time we get to season 2, I really think we're starting to see how underdeveloped Thorfinn is, but it's actually a huge feature for his character. it's not a writing flaw... it's what happens to people when they focus on anger and violence, to the exclusion of all else, and leave the entire rest of themselves on the cutting room floor. when Einar says that Thorfinn is like an overgrown baby, I think that's a completely accurate description. there are parts of Thorfinn that he's simply packed away, and hasn't touched since he was six years old. his environment left him with no use for these things, so he hasn't gone back to them. it leaves his character feeling very innocent in a lot of ways, because most people make a lot of the discoveries he's making now, when they're much younger. his development has been on pause this entire time, and it feels like we're finally able to meet him for real, because he's finally given the space to decide who he wants to be.
and it only redoubles the tragedy of Thorfinn in the first season, because when we finally get to meet him in the second season, I love him. it's painful to think about the person that got walled over during that dark time. if he hadn't broken away from it all, and remained the way he was, we might've never met him.
and as I said, I think that's what happened to characters like Bjorn, or Askeladd. there were parts of them that could've been good, and there were parts of them that yearned for things that they never felt capable of pursuing. Bjorn wanted to be Askeladd's genuine friend, and he never even felt like he could ask for it, until the day he died. Askeladd always wanted peace for Wales. he always cared for his mother's homeland, even if he never truly felt like he was welcome to join the people who lived there. instead, he lived his entire life as a Dane, and wasn't willing to really involve himself in the struggle for Wales, until putting his life on the line was his only option left. if he'd been able to start trying earlier, that might not have been the only thing he could do. even if they try to repress it, these are still people who want things... their lifestyle just prevents them from admitting it, or pursuing it properly. somehow the most important pieces of themselves are what ends up the most neglected.
I think that's a piece of why Einar is so important to me... Einar will teach Thorfinn how to do things that he is actually meant to be able to achieve. the tasks are simple, and useful. someone wants Thorfinn to do these things successfully, and he’s capable of producing positive, tangible results. he’s accomplishing things, and he has someone who will be happy about it now. his reward for this isn’t just an addiction to the vague promise of catharsis that will never come. and it makes a huge difference when Einar is patient, and explains things, and isn’t mean to him if Thorfinn gets something wrong. Thorfinn doesn’t have to constantly feel like garbage. he doesn’t feel like he has to hurt people constantly, just to prove he isn’t garbage. literally, the value of what he can accomplish with his own two hands is right there in front of him. he can see his progress, and Einar is proud of both of them for what they’re doing together.
as a person, Einar is 100% genuine, and that is incredibly valuable. and because he's like that, we finally get to see someone truly connect with Thorfinn. sure, Thorfinn has met people in the past who wanted to reach out and access all of this, but Einar is the one who really commits to the work of excavating these parts of Thorfinn. he's determined to meet him for real, and become his friend. but a hope like this is terrifying to have, because of how easily you know it can be destroyed.
now that Thorfinn has something of value in his life, he has to face the reality of how hard protecting it will be, if he meets even one other person that currently is the way he used to be. for every crime he ever committed, that's one more thing he has to be afraid of now. it's unrealistic to expect to be able to suppress the full force of human hatred with more violence of your own. so how do you protect the things you love, which have become so valuable to you? how to you avoid grief? what do you do with grief when it is unavoidable? how do you keep yourself from falling back into the cycle of violence? these have always been central questions in this narrative... from the first moment, to now.
@@kamuyking551you ever thought of doing video essays?You pretty much scripted out a whole 10-15 min video in this comment thread here
@@eunocicada62 I deeply appreciate the vote of confidence, but when it comes to making videos, I don't really know how. I've just got like, none of the time, equipment, or skills. the only video on my channel right now is a hideous little slideshow that I made just to dump comments onto, so I could collect a lot of my thoughts on the first season of Vinland Saga in one place, but even that was hurried together in between long 3rd shift work, and trying to get a solid day's sleep. I have a lot of time to write during those shifts, but writing really is the only place where my abilities lie. ^^;
amazing comment
We have no enemies brothers! I love the character growth pf Thorfin, him alongside Myamoto in Vagabond are my favourite character developments in all of manga. I have learned a lot from them and still do. People hate it as they want escapism, they don't want to ask themselves questions, a lot of people reject change, and it is sad. Great video!
I don’t know if it’s even about the lack of violence or action anymore… I think the people that hate Vinland Saga probably have never done something they truly regret and had the desire to become a kinder, better person.
At it’s core this is a story about redemption and forgiveness, and it tells that story perfectly.
Tbh they can't even use the violence argument anymore since I'd argue that season 2 had a smaller but still decent chunk of action still (but mostly character development, and the action in season 2 is played more brutally than in season 1), I feel like they honestly just hate for your reason and to act like they're different
I'm sorry I burned down your village and killed and slaughtered men women children and animals. I'm trying to change now so I have no enemies. I hope you understand
23:14 I don’t even think that the show is just saying “violence is bad”. Even Thorfinn admits to Canut that while he doesn’t understand his decisions, he doesn’t necessarily disagree or reject them saying “your world will help many while hurting few”. Thorfinn understands the inevitability that Canut as king will have to use violence to achieve his goals, he does not condemn him for it. He even says that violence is a “last resort” not “not an option at all”, as an individual he simply doesn’t want to take part in that violence, because he has come to learn first hand and trough his new friends what the cost of that violence is, and it is simply not worth the cost to him.
Honestly, Vinland Saga S2 was quite beautiful to me. After I finished season 1 (which I heavily enjoyed for its slightly more realistic action compared to most anime I’ve watched) I went online and saw lots of people hated the second season. I thought to drop it but I watched it anyway. Had no regrets. I actually enjoyed watching thorfinn and Anar go about farming and getting closer. And also Thorfinns realisation of how he has no enemies. Also Omar was the fucking goat.
Homie he has enemies. He probably made way more pissed off little psycho bastards like himself. Shows pretty mid.
@@coldeed There's a difference between having enemies and being someone's enemy. Of course he has made himself to be a lot of people's enemy and the manga acknowledges it and later even directly explores it. Thorfinn is no paragon and one of the questions the manga asks is if redemption is even possible. What I think the answer is - not really, but with Thorfinn's honest change he now aims to better the world slightly, which is a net positive compared to if he just died.
@@stanislavzoldak2198 Utilitarian logic doesn't work here. There would have been a net positive if his mother drowned him in a river. This proves nothing of right and wrong.
You could slit his throat and feed him to a farm animal and call that a net positive. It removes a dangerous and violent psycho from the world and it feeds animals which in turn feed others.
Utilitarian logic can deem life meaningless and valueless. Death of one can be more valuable than someone else's life. At this point Thorfinn has little value compared to others. His very existence creates a net negative to the world as it stands.
@@coldeed Damn did thorfinn personally kill your family or something, you seem to have major enemies
Edgy teenagers will edgy teenage. They started watching for all the graphic violence and general nihilism, so of course a deep journey or repentance and self-realization terrifies them. And they turn that fear into hatred, because they don't want to grow or reflect on themselves.
As an edgy teenager, this is valid
As a former edgy teenager I agree
"Hatred is a place where people go when they aren't strong enough to handle grief" -Godo, Berserk, "Cracks in the blade"
The other end is just as bad. Intellectual elitist
@@kobiee2x137 I'm hearing some hatred sprouted by fear of self-analysis XD
I really didn’t mind for the farming stuff, as this season had plenty of interesting conflicts to keep me occupied. As for the way Throfinn chooses to live his life onwards is up for debate on how efficient and effective it is, but maybe this is exactly the kind of debate we need to have from time to time. I myself now that this arc made a lot of actual real life people kinder and more patient, so maybe this new direction is doing something right.
The farming stuff is fine in the anime because its quick. The manga was monthly or bi monthly per chapter when farmland saga started. So imagine the arc on the farm lasting for like 2 years. Also, the series kinda did a 180 by having almost no fighting after nonstop action. I was a teenager back then so I did not like it but now I appreciate it. Although I still don't agree with Thorfin or his fathers way of life.
You don't have to be a snobby, big brain Seinen enjoyer to be smart enough to enjoy Vinland Saga S2.
I could barely wait for the next episode to come out every week, there's more than enough plot to be hooked on it, even if the stakes don't come just from action.
In season 2 the characters lives are on the line, if not literally then in the form of the new life they live, their home. There are always well established consequenses for if something goes wrong, someone will suffer even if you don't believe Thorfinn might die.
Almost more than the first, the Thorfinn being a pacifist just enhances how powerless he is.
He basically starts off as a child again, having to learn how to overcome obstacles, it's great.
Put Thorfinn from the middle of season 1 into slavery and there's basically no stakes, who cares, he'd be a god in paper chains.
i get what everyone else in the comments is saying about thorfinn's complete refusal to use violence being a bad thing as violence needs to be used in some situations, but maybe thorfinn's supposed to still be incomplete and must learn the necessary balance between violence and non violence (havent actually watched video just scrolled comments so sorry if this is stupid)
this is by far your best video bro, explained it perfectly. I'm going to show this to my friends who are still a bit sceptical about vinland saga!
I appreciate that man hopefully they give it or go but if not that’s chill :)
To any anime onlys that are still put off by the direction of season 2, as a manga reader, the best fights come after thorfinn leaves the farm. Stick with it, just because Thorfinn don’t kill anymore doesn’t mean he ain’t still whooping ass. He’s son of Thors the troll after all.
Man please keep up the good work. You have some of the most intelligent scripts and well crafted videos. This is the first time I felt a NEED to support a content creator. Looking forward to see more.
Thanks for watching so much :)
Love the video. Violence has always been a topic that I've had mixed opinions on and Vinland Saga definitely has me thinking. I love the manga and loved this video. I really liked how respectful you were when presenting opinions. Honestly, I gotta learn to think like you do lol
Thanks for watching :)
I actually was cursing canoute. And saying thorrfinns gonna fuck you up. And then I realized how I was so easily influenced to WANT thorfinn to fight. I wasnt thinking of his soul..I was thinking it would be stasfiying. 😢 I stop and felt bad
As a huge fan of vinland saga s2, i think one thing it didnt do so well was the transition from s1 to s2 from the prospective of the viewer.
Because at the end of s1 askeladd died a hero by saving wales, the prince and ridding the world of an evil king through an act of violence. Thus creating the problem of a country without a leader and solving it by letting the prince take his life, which is again an act of violence. Whether or not the viewer is subconsciously or consciously thinking about it, violence saved a lot of people and allowed askeladd to redeem himself.
And thats where the disconnect we have toward thorfinn begins because when askeladd died, his whole world came coming down and realizing just maybe that violence might not be the answer. While we think the opposite. We needed a scene like when ketil beat arnheid half to death. Which many agreed that within a series so violent and bloody that this scene was the most horrifying. If we had more of these before the transition into the farming sim in s2 then it wouldve made us more opened to the idea of having violence be a back drop to the story going forward.
Ofc the author consciously wanted the shift to be abrupt so its not a fault of the story telling. But since the author is himself a pacifist and wanted to create a story depicting the journey of becoming one. I would assume he wanted more people to expenerice his story and to become one or atleast be opened to the idea. And if thats the objective then having a sudden shift with no reason for the viewer to hate violence is tough and will/has proven to be unsuccessful for some people who dropped the series.
I definitely would not say he died a hero. Everything else is fine that you said.
coming from someone whoread the manga the reason i droped the series is because thorfinns extreme pacisfism in the face of a logical problem got to be too much.for example, thorfinn wants to create a new society in vinland, so how will it be run?he talks to halfdan and he tells him tldr: kingdoms run on a monopoly of violence for compliance, and thorfinnjust says ill be different. or the fact that other people RIGHTFULLY point out that hes running an experiment with other peoples lives about whether or not violence is needed in vinland,regardless of the possibility of encountering people or situations that require violence to deal with.The mangas world is actively showing the reader why thorfinns ideals dont work and thorfinn has no logical way to respond.
@-nyte2063 i got a bit of that frustration in the 2nd season but overall isnt that a good problem to have? Its a tough fundamental problem without an esay solution that he'll have to solve if he wants to justify his way of life. Its not like thorfin cant find a solution because the series is still ongoing. Itll force him to grow and what more can u ask for in terms of character development.
Honestly, my critic against Thorfinn's pacifist ideology is the main reason i am very excited for the next season. I cannot imagine how can a person operate under such harsh moral compass. Do you just run away forever? Don't you ever need to stand your ground? These are questions that needs to be answered and Vinland is trying to present these answers from the view of a pacifist
Legitimately he already lost me when he put his life on the line to save the lives of the people who enslaved him, repeatedly sexually assaulted his friend, and then beat that friend to death for appearing to have the desire of not being property anymore. This brutal depiction of slavery and pacifism is weird combination for me to digest. I don’t even like violence nor do I necessarily want to see an action packed anime. Pacifism to this degree just makes absolute no sense to me. If this wasn’t a fictional story no way would things have worked out so well.
The author addresses these issues later in the manga, his morality is challenged by certain people that he absolutely has no choice but to fight
I’m sure he eventually does. After all, his father had the same philosophy yet defended himself, his son, and all of those with him against Askeladd and his crew. He didn’t kill anyone, but fought all the same.
I read the manga up to volume 26 (27 still has to be published in my native language), yes the goal of the protagonist is an idealistic version of pacifism, but the point of the author is that getting there is very hard, but not impossible. In season 2, Thorfinn is working towards that ideal, but he is still far from it there have been still moment in which he had to resort to violence in season 2 and there will be more. The author views violence as a never-ending cycle and for Thorfinn it will be very difficult to break it.
Also the thing about shonen and seinen and generally the target demographics, it's very difficult to actually what categorize a manga as and most publishers are willing to publish works that do not fit the typical crieria of the works aimed at that target demographic and most mangakas would change from a publishing house of a target demopgraphic to another because it's more convenient.
Smooth brain mfs be like: ShOw BaD nOw BeCaUsE nO vIoLeNcE aNyMoRe.
Midwit take: Show GOOD because no violence, muh deconstruction!
I said once that Monster (a seinen manga) is basically Death Note but for big bois. I still stand by that claim, since there are a bunch of darker messages in it, however, I don't say that to disrespect Death Note at all. Death Note was the second anime I watched, and it helped me question a lot of things in life I normally wouldn't. Monster, though, takes that a bunch of steps further and I started to enjoy seinen along with shounen.
Both Animes are targeted to adults and teenagers leaning towards adulthood so this is unfair
Its literally nothing like death note lol are we watching the same show?
I personally thought they killed it! Vinland saga has creeped it's way up to my favorite manga right now, and I thought mappa did such a great job with season 2, my only gripe is that I wish they made the characters a little more gritty like in the manga I felt some of the facial expressions didn't hit the same as they did in the manga but it's such a small complaint.
To be fair, the farmland arc in the Vinland Saga Manga is insanely detailed visually. Really detailed and complex art is hard to animate.
But that's a fair complaint . I think overall, visually, the Anime looks great.
They didn't even animate pupper Thorfin 😭
@@hello-gx6oi Well Vinland Saga's Farmland arc in the Manga is really detailed with complex facial expressions. Everything is filled to the brim with alot of shading and character. So it's understandable that they couldn't animate everything identical to it's Manga counterpart. But the artwork for the Anime still looks good in my oppion. Season 2 is even more detailed than season 1.
@@hello-gx6oi Oof
The fact that people reject Thorfinns new philosophy makes it more compelling to me, of course most would choose violence and the 'easy'path.
It's funny how many people hate the nonviolence aspect. It's essentially Vash in Trigun but edgier, or a lot of the points in FMA but a little more radical and adult.
Thorfinn's change is neither fast nor slow. His ego was catastrophically damaged, and he had to rebuild who he was. The next arc is a bit slow, as he gathers resources and people for his journey. The ending is... Ehhhhhh... Realistic.
Generally vinland saga is ambiguous/agnostic to its stance on war and violence, despite having a strong antiviolence message.
Thorfinn embodies an ideal and represents something i truly feel and understand and resonate with as to why someone may not want for violence and hate, and ye lt is never portrayed in media, and that's one of familiarity with violence and hatred, one's relationship with trauma and the desire to seek a different option.
Most of the time pacifists are pacifists in fiction because they just "are" or because they have role models that are pacifists, and so on...
The other part not talked about is the amount of power and strength it requires to be a pacifist,when most of the time they seem to exist out of sheer plot armour and idealism.
Some people are so broken in by this world, that they vicariously live in power fantasies, not for the thrill of being powerful and for the simple pleasure of it, but for the assurance that they won't be stepped on and left all alone.
They are one of the few humans I pity without remorse, because they are animals given awareness, without the wisdom to realize that life isn't a competition.
They have this beautiful mind, yet all they use it on is trying to rationalize their bad lot in life.
How they were born without talent, and they answer with anger instead of letting go of their need to be liked and cherished by others.
What a pity, the way humans have awareness, yet don't use it to become aware that they are no longer animals.
They wat they idolize those that lean into their talents and control the other animals. They dream of being so, for in that dream, their existential loneliness does not exist.
So when they see a human let go of their egocentric nature, in a way they know they'd never do themselves, they rage.
They rage and shout and curse, for they crave the freedom they know they will never touch, so long they cling to the animal inside.
I still love Vinland Saga. And season 2 of Vinland Saga instantly became my top favorite from the season. So much so , I gave it a 10/10.
Yes, Everything in this show/manga is brilliant but the only problem that i have is that the author should make a distinction between fighting as a sport and fighting for violence and killing. Because there are lot of times when the conflict could be solved if Thorfinn could show his strength as a sport, but he doesnt and the conflict keeps on going. Thats the only part that frustrated me
I see what you’re saying however I think that distinction can’t be made in this time, because for these men sport and violence are one and the same. We have been able to seperate the two, guy gets knocked out alright that’s it you win get back.
But these guys are betting on Thorfinn dying from these punches, I think Yukimura probably knows and acknowledges that physical sport is a skill that adds to human life in todays world :)
To add on to mugenbops comment:
Thorfinn doesn't want his goal to be achieved through intimidation or because people respect him for his strength. To create a more peaceful world conflict must be resolved in a way full of kindness and love. Otherwise it'd just turn into another 'survival of the strongest'-kinda world
If people hated Vinland Saga for this, they are going to hate Vagabond too, if it ever gets adapted. My favourite arc was the farm one too.
Same here, it reminded me of getting my life together after the bad times and regaining hope for the future by making good friends.
the farm arc in vagabond was so good i almost didn't want it to end.
Because theres a big section of anime fans who are pissed of angry people who hate the world and want it all to burn. They wish they were big and strong and could enact gratitous violence on everyone to show how big and strong they really are in this totally unfair world. And they escape into anime for that release.
So they push back against anything that rejects those ideals. Vinland Saga is set up, from the first episodes, as a complete rejection of war and violence. Your meant to watch season 1 and feel sympathy and pain for Thorfinn... not because his Dad died, but because this poor kids thirst for revenge is leading him down the path his Father didn't want for him... and it a road paved with nothing but loss and pain. But the aforemention section of fans instead... live vicariously through Thorfinn and think his quest for revenge is fantastic and brilliant and make him a good character. They wanted Thorfinn to kill Askeladd, whilst your meant to dread the moment he does.
But thorfin alone didn t want to kill him in first place. You could see that when he didn t attack askeladd while he was pretending to sleep. Fair duel was just excuse because thorfin didn t want to accept that he didn t want to kill him. That was his only way of living at that time. Also we have here break of cicle. Thorfinn didn t do what askeladd did because unlike him thorfinn had father figure who teached him before. That why i think he didn t try to stab him there.
@@tomasdqwx2781 Nah he totally wanted to kill him its just his twisted idea of what a "Warrior" was made it so the only way he could accept it would be victory in a duel
Or maybe they just don't think it's good😊
I listen to a few of the Osts from Vinland Saga and alot of them soothe me so much, particularly "Ahead of the Road". So when Yukimura says he calms himself by think that he doesn't have any enemies, I think I get it. Bless this man for making my favorite series❤️
Because thorfinn didn’t karate kick Canute and judo chop his whole army
Because Canute didn't bake Thorfin a reunion cake and they didn't go out on a romantic picnic but that's just my opinion lol
“it’s like netflix actually making a good anime adaptation, it just doesn’t happen” now that sir was violent
We are waiting for Peakland Saga season 3!!!!
I honestly didn't feel any whip lash it felt like a correct progression so seeing thorfinn gain a personality beyond kill askalad was exciting to me
The trash taste podcast made a good point, they did the 1st season so well and so action packed that when it switched they got mad because they only want the violence and not the interesting story
the author of the story was originally planning for the start for the manga/anime to go this direction before he started writing
@@mistadude they should have done it like berserk where it started like in the demons and stuff but it goes to before with realistic old war battles and stuff so it made sense to go back into the part it originally was and its not as abrupt, but me personally i love season 2 so much more im not to big on fight scenes except berk manga that shit would make me just sit there taking it in for like 2 mins on one page.
Yeah, transition wrecked it, i think thats the simple reason. Its a brand, so they violated the brand. If there was supposed to be a quick transition from violence, should ahve done it in less episodes rather than a whollee season. Because that set the tone, then they violated it
@@Michael1ndonli I understand people's frustrations but me personally I think their frustrations are fucking retarded it's someone's work they get to do what they want and they should make what they want not what others want.
Funny to see when Eren became a villain because he killed the children and the innocent people, they cheered him on like psychopaths But when Thorfinn a child who knows nothing but anger becomes a philosopher who have a goal to create a peaceful nation, they say it was a stupid main character,
Sorry if there is innocent Eren fans,
I still full filled with rage after being attacked by toxic yeagerists, even aot ended and fans become better,
It wasn't enough for me
AoT has the worst anime and manga ending ever
I love both stories. There is depth and a whole lot of meaning to both. I liked the farmland season, and I even liked AOT's ending. But the characters can only amount to what the world they were set up to live in would allow them to be. Torfinn in AOT would die as a pacifist,maybe he would side with the vow renouncing war. What I liked in Eren's character is that he refuses to be a scapegoat or to turn the other cheek. Torfinn's growth as a person is commendable and inspiring but just not very realistic for the time that he lived in.
My biggest gripe with Attack on Titan is that killing millions of innocent people is treated like an afterthought by the fandom and the characters. That's why I find most of the cast very unlikable.
When you deep it, Eren is the biggest monster in the series and most fans cheer him on because they know his backstory, are living through him, or simply find him attractive.
@kevintanza6968 I agree with you about the fandom. I am one of the people that really love Eren's character but we were meant to pity him for what he became.
the people who hate Thorfinn also hate Eren, they hate Thorfinn cause he's not a stereotypical hero and they hate Eren cause he's not a cliche villain
Thorfinn rejects the status quo of his world
And people don’t like that for some reason
This guy really hit the nail in the head, people don't like it cuz they don't believe in pacifism plain and simple. But the story is much more about personal change than pacifism
@@LuisSierra42 its not like they don't even believe it, they don't even stop to think about it. they are controlled by their NPC instincts, and violence its intrinsic to us. if you don´t ever escape your default network, you never reach your humanity.
The fucker killed countless sons, daughters, mothers, fathers and y'all forget that. Then the moron spouts "I have no enemies".
He's not a pacifist, he's a weak willed immature guy. He was psychotically violent over emotions he couldn't direct and now he'll be completely spineless and passive because of different emotions.
Sure, it's better than mass killing. What's better than him walking away scott free is someone else's son gutting him and moving on with their life.
Because at this point it's a dumb story following a man with arguably the worse judgement humanly possible to the point of parody.
@@coldeed Bro its an anime set in the viking ages, you acting like he time travelled to the modern day and started knifing people on the street irl
@@EpicFortnitecancer neat name hombre
I find it funny that you showed the digimon movie at the end. I wanted to comment about how I love the Last Evolution Kizuna and it's message, despite the movie going in a direction I didn't want myself. Personally I really love the movie, I enjoyed most of the story that was told. I want a show or a movie to suprise me, show me things I hadn't been thinking about and Vinland is definitely one of those series for me
I think the people who hates vinland saga are people who shape their entire personality around anime and not having any sort of difficulties in their life which kinda makes vinland saga useless for them
I am going to be honest, I did stop watching it when Thorfinn mentioned he will no longer kill. But, I do see how he ended up being a pacifist and also curious on how he will manage to do so specially war is litterally in his path. Glad I stumbled upon your channel. Thank you
There is more action again too, its framed different, butits argumently heavier. It is a well done way to have him fight every bitwhile keeping that up.
And hilde is an amazing character worth it too. and its funadventures and other companions are good too,but damn i love hilde. Theseries still keeps an edge.
I enjoyed season 2. Good video!
Arnheid's story in particular was good, it is rare for a story to make me feel so repulsed. She was essentially a sex slave that had lost everything, including her young child, for no reason other than being on the losing side of a conflict she had no say in. Her thousand yard stare while Kettle cried on her in bed conveyed the kind of hell she had lived through. I think the story wanted us to slowly develop empathy for her, to briefly gain hope that she might actually find a better life, and to then use that attachment and shattered hope to make us feel the same righteous rage and bloodlust that Einar felt towards Kettle. It was there to challenge us and make us have to personally face what Thorfinn was saying.
Since you brought it up a bit, Berserk would have handled Arnheid's story differently because it has a different theme and lesson. And like you said that's okay, we don't have to agree with what every piece of art wants to convey. Stories will contradict each other. Viewers should appreciate what Vinland Saga wants to tell us even if they don't personally accept the theme or integrate it into their life.
I guess to finish, season 1 was more action packed, while season 2 was more thought provoking. I can't say that season 1 made me contemplate life or what I value in the same way.
Excellent video, really like how you tackled all the varied perspectives of people who would get into VS or not and in a respectful manner.
i know its not constructive to say that they are objectively stupid even though its just true
Preach it brother.
more constructive than their argument at least
Lool people hate Vinland? It’s a beautiful story.
For those who don't know, anime/manga is called Berserk: Vagabond Saga. It's about a boy, Thorfinn Miyamoto, who fights imaginary enemies as he has no actual enemies.
@lespongeboi That is undoubtedly one of the most pivotal moments in his life along with his battle against Guts Thorkell in the Eclipse.
he's right not all Anime is suppose to be LOVED, I liked the fighting scenes but how it developed just didn't ignite interest. I couldn't watch without breaking 2hrs of astraying from watching episodes of it. it took me forever to watch. Remember the soundtrack & op-ed songs were great. I just can't vibe with the series as a whole cause of outside factors.
FMA brotherhood is probably the best anime ever but I think the big seinens are the best and also ping pong is my favorite ever.
Reading the comments with no enemies.
I really like the mentality of "I have no enemies" it's there to show as blatant text that this person is willing to swim against the tides of violence. That they are truly strong. Vinland saga is a refreshing take on strength in a medium that really likes to put numbers on how hard you punch. Hoping for a season 3.
Every sweeping social movement starts with a first step that seems crazy at the time. Even knowing historically, a war free world without slaves has not happened, it’s still amazing watching a story about trying to build one.
I don’t understand how anyone who watched season one could be surprised about the direction the story went. Like you’d literally have to watch it with your brain turned off to not see this coming
The dagger drop at the end of season 1 should’ve been a major hint at that lol
Most people don't get stories unless they see something online telling them this or that.
S2 of Vinland Saga is honestly one of my favorite seasons of any story ever and it made Vinland Saga one of my favorite stories of all time. Absolute peak writing & genius character writing and development! BTW. oh man, One Piece has way more than just violence. OP is so different than 90% of Shonen. Just like Hunter x Hunter.
could this arc be mid? no, its everyone else who is stupid
Honestly this just proves that many people haven't learned from their faults and mistakes. Its more than just a angry teenager who's on a vengeful mission. Season 2 shows you what war leaves behind. Broken people who are either trying to fulfill their purpose and those that are trying to find purpose in a world where any life can be snuff out with no purpose.
Incredible video, great work on this! I LOVE Vinland Saga coming from the anime. The "I HAVE NO ENEMIES" statement was one of the most beautiful moments in anime for me.
I have mad respect for the author, and I can't wait for next season!
Same !😭
I view the ppl that hate Vinland Sage S2 the same ppl that say dbz is the greatest story ever told
It is and this sucks
They both suck
Great video as always man!
Appreciate it!
I love the closed captions saying Finland, reminds me of a meme someone made for their alternate history
intro gave me ‘The Right Opinion’ flashbacks
slept in frequently during s1 and had to rewatch some episodes, great action though! for some reason s2 absolutely glued me to my screen and I was very pleased to get to know the actual thoughts and feelings of our protagonist, only other charakter still alive being probably Knud. I think this Manga and Anime have a little bit of everything for everyone, I personally love both seasons equally because they all add up to the bigger picture. to me it's a story of reinventing yourself and also changing your daily work from something you are just good at into something that also does your very soul good, probably a very nieche and yoga stretch interpretation, but that is something I personally relate to a lot. I haven't spoilered myself with the manga just yet but I really hope that after friendship Thorfinn also gets to experience love and the traumatizing horrors of fatherhood :D
People hate vinland saga ? from what i know it's a very popular manga. I for one love it.
it just goes to show mist anime viewers and manga readers dont actually understand storytelling and just look at things at surface level and spectacle factor
Super happy to hear your voice brother
Happy to see your comment brother :)
@@mugenbop thanks man! Cheers from Pennsylvania!
@mugenbop hey I've always wanted to ask you- is your handle at all related to the fighting game engine (which I have loved for the better part of 20 years btw lol)
Nope just a coincidence haha
@mugenbop good coincidence though lol
Never watched the show but I finished the manga and I think it's very reality based on how a person from his time period might come to age. It's honestly really beautiful
Thorfinn : I have no enemies.
Dice-head Floki : And I took that personally.
It's a good story. The Greek hero type story is boring after a while. This takes place when the story isn't what people expected and should be enjoyed as a different type of story with a different type of thinking.
Then they shouldn't have spent so much time building up a completely different story in season 1. This is a classic bait and with switch. Like the author knew majority of people weren't interested in the story he wanted to tell so he turned into one that would make lots of money. Then when he got his money he changed it into something completely different.
It sounds snobbish to say, but I think you need a certain level of maturity (not dictated by age but experience) to enjoy Vinland Saga and its message. Really don't mean for that to sound as exclusive as it does.
the average naruto fan is not gonna like this show ur right
@@swap9649vinland saga is fucking mid. Its peak cringe « mature seinen »
@@11_valyghost2 whats ur favorite anime
@@swap9649 probably Boku no pico
@buttclencher
BRUH wtf 😂
It's a binge watch. If you saw the end of season one. Then waited a half year for season 2....I can understand the shock. But I saw it all within 3 days and I have fallen in love with it. The balance of one self is a concept I love to seek for I have been in ." War" I was a heroin addict in HS during this I had abuse to deal with and then friends leaving me due to me. I got clean.....but 2018 after 8 yrs went back and I sold every last bit of me. Sold my guitar, bass,cymbals anything I could to get heroin. And not even to get high...no I. Needed it to function. It's a world no one should seek. As my name states I love Bleach and how kubo was telling us strength isn't only muscle but the body,mind,and spirit being one. Thorfinn is that as well, I loved the direction...he took it in. Because I craved for thorfinn peace...and I can't wait to finish
The only real good thing about Demon Slayer is the animation and the art.
i hate that look of moefied shonen, don't like the art
I find the criticism that, “it’s impossible to be a pacifist in a world of war and bloodshed” to actually strengthen the story. Thors/Thorfinn’s choice to be pacifists despite the world around them hating and crucifying pacifists just strengthens their philosophy even more. They could be warriors and be rewarded with all the gold and goods they want but they choose to be pacifists because it is the right thing to do, and they are true to their ideas, and shows their true selflessness.
To die rather than give up your humanity
its also just the more difficult path cos of how much violence and warfare is glorified during that time period so to truly avoid hurting or killing everyone while they are all ok with doing the same to you would be much more difficult than if they outright just fight back and slaughter everyone.
Pacifism is not a virtue though. We can all understand how letting a vicious killer go free because you won't exact justice only for him to murder a bunch of people would be very wrong.
@@TheThreatenedSwan Have you heard of the concept of "prisons"? Maybe not killing everything that moves?
@@varden1928 What year do you think this is set in?
Season 2 is the best season so far
the comparison between thorfinn and eren is so accurate. shingeki no kyojin is my all time favorite anime and, vinland saga, my all time favorite manga. i've always been fascinated by thorfinn and eren's destiny. it's the completely opposite yet, when you think about it, they have so much in common...
Vinladn saga is a character study just like vagabond , if you aren't into stories like that don't bother , simple as that but i for one adore stories like that
My friend told me that the season 2 of Vinland saga wasn't bad but there wasn't enough action and nothing much happened. He said that they gave a certain expectation with season 1 with how much action was it. I think some ppl just had such a merit for action and the character doing cool thing. They can't appreciate the character depth and writing. I read a lot of books that have no action or a lot of the scenes don't. But can appreciate the writing intrigued and naturally character growth
They want Shonen tropes in a Seinen series, LOL.
I loved both seasons and started reading the manga after season 1. But currently I have to stop, the story and most everything is going great but sadly due to the nature of the manga, a lot of things are up to interpretation with translating it and since I cannot afford the official release, I read the free and totally legal versions online which has the well known issue of tyrannical scantlators.
My only criticism of the story is a difference in how we perceive Thors' words. Thorfinn and the story takes it as not fighting at all is the way to go, when going to a strange land that he knows that there are people who could be hostile, he willingly rejected weapons which can be reasonable but even shields and armour. He is opening up himself and more importantly the people who depend on him and follow him to needless violence that they have no choice but to accept since he has left them unprepared, even stopping them from erecting a fence that would at least provide them some protection from wildlife trying to take food and such.
Meanwhile in my personal view, a pacifist is someone who has the ability to do harm but abstains, they have the ability to terrorize those around them and use their power for massive gains for themselves but they have the character, honor, morals and strength to abstain from needless violence, to cause no more harm than necessary. I personally do not consider someone who sees someone about to be killed, does nothing about it even when they have the ability to and simply watches as a pacifist but passive.
Thorfinn went from one extreme of killing without remorse to the other extreme of having the ability to stop violence in front of himself to either not stopping it or loathing himself for interfering. Thors was unironically perfect, he struck the perfect balance that one needs to be a true pacifist, he had the power both in his body and his words to tyrannize people but used it purely for others, to defend them from attackers or to help them build themselves up, he used violence only in its capacity to help people and abstained from any more than was absolutely necessary.
Current Thorfinn vs Thors' ideologies are almost entirely different, Thorfinn is asking people to constantly run away or die, Thors is asking people to stand against evil when necessary but to otherwise do no harm. The criticism of his naiveté is valid to the point that yes there will always be people who wish to harm you but sometimes you either cannot or should not run, if someone is about to kill your child, it is still violence to subdue the would be killer before grabbing your child and yet I don't think there is a single person who would not at least wish they would be able to subdue and stop the killer.
Of course Thorfinn is still growing as this is in the middle of his story and I hope to see him strike the balance his father did and he has already grown lots past his past self, its not like I think season 1 Thorfinn had a good ideology either I just personally see a lot more room for him to grow.
Yall noticed that one dude who commented 7 times?
😶
You talking about me lol? Sorry. Just really passionate about Vinland Saga. 😅
In real viking stories this seigeing problem was adressed by way of gold tax, a certain amount of gold would be given to the families of the vanquished, here not so much its either murder, or avenge
This is a very nice channel. Thank you for this, man.
ur video deserved the like but the last moments when u dropped a FAAXX for no reason earned subscription
Unfortunately I can’t contribute with more because dollar is expensive in R$.
wow thanks so much man! I appreciate that but hey look after yourself first no need to give more :)
@@mugenbop don’t worry man! happy to contribute. I gain so much more from your videos
I really like S2, even if the message of "I have no enemies" is something I dont agree with.
Though it is ideally that we dont have enemies, the truth is that theres going to be people who are outright malicious and cruel. Forgiveness is a virtue but it should have limits.
Growing up, there are many people in my life who hurt me (and I hurting others). While I have forgave people who hurted me, theres some who just dont deserve it. I highly doubt these people are clinically diagnosed sociopaths/psychopaths but they are just not worth forgiving. You cant demand forgiveness nor respect so its better to treat them as threats
I might take the message too literal but I still believe that you're going to have enemies, likely in the form of people who wants to make you their enemy (and refuses to see otherwise).
I honestly entered vinland Saga s2, thinking it would be a relaxed and calm arc, yet I was met with depression and sadness.
I was scammed!!
no, just no.
First of all I *do* have a degree in philosophy, wrote my dissertation on ethics and it's not some kind of settled "everything has been said" type thing to say that violence is wrong or bad.
I've also read the sagas of the Icelanders and related works, and I've an internet connection so some basic history isn't beyond me, so let me say that the author seems historically illiterate when they try to argue for pacifism, especially in this time. Pacifism would have just lead to you, and your family and friends, being enslaved or killed, and they wouldn't randomly release slaves after a fistfight. Thralls just weren't viewed as the same kind of people as everyone else.
I would love to learn more about your research. Philosophy is indeed a beautiful subject.
Lmao philosophy degree 🤣🤣🤣🤣
You, my friend, are not nearly as smart as you think you are.
@@chrisgraham2327 His point still stands.
True pacifism does never work. And I mean pacifism to a degree of outright refusing to defend yourself like Thors did and Thorfinn does with the 100 hits.
In reality after 100 hits comes so many hits until you go down. Refusing to attack or misuse your power is legit but pacifsm is undefendable (literally).
Being strong means to be able to do something and being wise is to know when to use it. Never or always using your power is foolish. Not being able to is weakness.
I have a hilarious history with this vinland saga. Idk why but i used dislike the character designs (i don't even know why i hated it im sorry 😭). But what happened was my younger brother made me watch it. So i ain't gonna lie i absolutely loved season 1. It was so good that i just kept rewatching it. I absolutely loved ending of s1 to bcz yk. Then came season 2. It was totally different and first i was confused but as i watched through the season i thought it was perfect. It had alot of dept and meaning in it. Redemption, regret, the path to become a better person. It gave me warmth. I could feel the emotions of the characters. Now only difference between me and my brother is now i love it and now he hates it 😂. I then started reading the manga and now all caught up.
I love vinladn, when the frist season ends I went to the manga inmediatly and was confusing at the beging it feel like another show but when Torfin says his iconic frase I was in tears it was beatifull and I'm triying to make it a part of my life
I like your thoughts and arguments on most aspects, but 21:19 that bit about people not being able to look away from violence I partly rejected. I think many look because it's our nature to stay safe and by looking we retain an edge in escaping the situation should it threaten us. Most people I know who don't enjoy violence as a matter of consumption turn their head away out of reaction. People do often film rather than help - because one of those options gets us hurt. It takes a true warrior to step in and break off a conflict.
Of course your right that point was only to reinforce humanities enjoyment of it hundreds of years later, I personally if I feel a fight about to start I get out of the room. But having grown up in a small town where people wanted to get into fights cuz; nothing else to do was not uncommon so I feel people crave it as well. Once someone approached a friend on a night out and said “which one of you guys wants to get hit tonight?”
Of course we want to stay safe by observation too, and that need to observe may be because of your location where you live and where you are at the time
I love Vinland Saga but I'm kind of in the "Wait and See" camp. "I have no enemies" is a little naive but that's why only a true warrior could live by that statement. I have to wonder how and if he'll manage to achieve his goals without selfishly hurting others or allowing the people who believe in him to be hurt.
I find joy in “wondering about it” though. The show excels at presenting questions and showing us how its characters act upon their answers. Like, who is more naive between Thorfinn and Canute? Another way I’d put it is that judging Thorfinn’s pacifism “naive” does not invalidate his quest to achieve it, or be the measure I’d judge the other aspects of the show by.
I can understand what you mean and hopefully this gives a more level of understanding. In order to understand the "I have no enemies" phrase you would need to venture out of the anime and look for answers outside. One concept I find it being compared to is Stoicism which is an ancient philosophy from Greece, this could give you a more clear idea why that phrase is more important than just Thors said it. Its why Thorfinn doesn't know where to start and takes so long for S2 to develop which I even found it a little difficult but rewarding when it happened. At the end of the day I can see why younger or less aware individuals consider S2 as "mid" or made the MC look like a coward.
Another great video, I personally really relate to the themes of season 2 and you articulated them perfectly
I feel like people (one of my close friends included) who strongly disliked season 2 were watching it for amazingly animated action rather then what the story really is about which is human weakness. The whole search for being a true warrior and the up and down turbulence the characters shown to search for it go through is less about being a “warrior” in the classic sense but about managing and conquering the weakness we all have in us in varying respects.
Because when you thought he would strike back he didn’t
people who didnt like vinland saga season 2 proably watched season 1 with their eyes closed