I realize this video was posted 3 months ago, but I just stumbled into it. THANK YOU! Finally see/hear a straightforward explanation of Traditional vs Modern Espresso. I grew up in Puerto Rico driniking espresso since I was 10 years old four decades ago. I've had thousands of roasts over the years made with different preparation methods. I personally have stuck with the Traditional (well, my own version is 15g in 60g out) and ocassionally try some roasts using the Modern guidelines. I have found more often than not that "Modern" method is used as a generalized preparation method that doesn't apply to the coffee being brewed. This goes for any coffee houses from S'bucks to local. The 'Modern' method can make a beautiful traditional espresso to a sour/bitter/pungent unpleasant experience, but I personally think it's because the 'Modern' method is quite often applied in combination with milk, which balances out the taste. I like my espresso straight or with brown sugar 'to taste'. My setup includes a Gaggia Classic Pro, Eureka Mignon Silenzio grinder (and other manual grinders), as well as a Turkish coffee pot, French Press, a Bialetti Moka Espress and a Staresso Portable Espresso maker.
I'm a baker and scaling ingredients is part of the job. It's probably why I got hooked so quickly into espresso. Scales will always help with consistency, but it's not a guarantee. Not every batch of bread is going to be the same, and I don't expect coffee to be any different in that aspect. From some of these videos and comments, I get the impression a lot of people really do expect espresso shots to be the same every time. Is that the vibe or am I off on this one? Nice video, by the way. I prefer a ratio of 1:2.5 for my shots.
I think the thing is that a lot of people think ratio is the only factor affecting anything when there are a lot more things to consider. Like making sure one thing is the same causes everything else to be the same as well
I'm old school. I worked in cafes back in the early 90s. I got a lot of compliments on my drinks, too. Nothing was consistent back then. When people ordered, they would specifically ask me to make it because they knew I made it the way they wanted. So not only was every cafe different, every barista was, too. In those days, you often got a lot of pleasant surprises. There was a lot of creativity. At the same time, there was also a lot of BAD coffee. The level of knowledge broadly throughout the industry was much lower. Fast forward to this year. I got a machine and started doing a little research to see what's happened in nearly 30 years since I touched one of these things. When I first heard about ratios I thought it was a bunch of OCD nonsense, but I can honestly say that weighing my dose and playing with ratios has made me better than I was back then. I agree with what you're saying, though. There's limits to how much you can control something. And I think for some, it's also a form of ritual. They put so much effort in the ritual they think it must be making their coffee better. When I see someone tamping and polishing like five times I just shake my head. Or throwing one more bean in the grinder because their dose is 0.1 grams off. Some people take it so far they forgot 1) It's just coffee, not a cure for cancer, and 2) It's meant to be enjoyed, not turned into a bean accounting job.
@@jcasetnl You hit a lot of good points. The ratios and weighing help keep things in check in a big way. The ritual is also a big part, even for me. After a while, you start enjoying the process of it all. Like you, I cringe a bit when I see people adding that last bean for 0.1 grams. LOL With that said, I'm not paying $300 for a scale. NEVER! Lastly, like you said, it's just coffee. Nothing about it is set in stone, so enjoy it for what it is.
I believe fully that if you have everything dialled In, you know what you’re doing and you’re consistent. The product if done right will ALWAYS be the same if not at least 98% consistent. To say that you can’t do the same thing twice or even more than that isn’t very optimistic nor is it correct. But that’s just my opinion hehe.
I love that kind of madness and I think 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 are most of the times better with better roasted coffee (which I prefer). In Italy (with the classic italian mix and roasted coffee would be really bitter) a double shot a "doppio" is literally a double shot. The standard shot is 7g of coffee in 25 out (this is a normale), a doppio is 14g of coffee in 50g out (theoretically none measure the input or output).
In all the years I ran a coffee shop in Europe, I never really paid attention to either strict volume measurements or weight ratios. I can pull shots all day and not tell you how much they weigh or how many ml they are, but each one will taste good. Starting with a dose measurement for a single (you have to know how many shots you're getting per kilo when you're running a business...) of approx. 7.5 grams, I knew more or less how much I wanted to fill a cup - around 25ml. At that point it's a question of consistency of the liquid. I guess it's a feel I developed for making espresso that I could see when to stop the shot and that's important because every coffee bean is different and there are only so many coffee beans in a shot and that affects each shot. A double was exactly that - two singles. There's a double spout on the portafilter with the deeper basket because it's for making - you guessed it - two single espressos, and you want them to taste the same as a single pulled from the single shot portafilter. I think a lot of the misconceptions in American espresso culture actually originated with some weird things Kenneth Davids propounded back in the 70s and 80s like proportions for cappuccino (1/3 espresso, 1/3 milk, 1/3 foam) which weren't in line with Italian habits at the time or the norms now (25 ml espresso shot, 100 ml steamed milk) and his unresearched recipes went on to shape American espresso culture. Italians didn't use a double shot for cappuccino so his ratios couldn't work in a standard 160 ml (6 fl. oz.) cappuccino cup. I also enjoy drinking multiple espressos per day and the caffeine difference between singles and doubles mean that I don't want to be slamming doubles all the time. I want to enjoy my espresso, and supersizing it works against me.
I think you're spot on with this. It has also to do with the difference in the drinking experience in the US and Italy. In the US (and many new coffeebars in Europe) the bar is a place where you are supposed to sit for a long time, talking to friends, check your computer/phone, take selfies etc., where in Italy a coffeebar is mostly quick in, get a single espresso, say a few words to the barista (although in some places i've found that talking is reserved for the absolute locals ;-)) - and then back to work. Even in the middle of Rome, business guys in tight suits will park their car illegal with flashing blinkers, get in, have an espresso, and then go back to the car. That's why the bars often have two prices: One "bar" price, like 0,80 Euro - and one café price like 1,20 Euro. If you occupy more space/time, you'll pay more! And yes, nearly all machines are manual or volumetric in these bars. Why make things complicated?
Great video on the core espresso drink. Some time ago, there was research that showed that a volumetric machine got the best results (before weight was a thing.) I wonder if the volumetric machines were better at measuring the volume of actual liquid, compared to the volume of the completed shot. That would make it a bit closer to a weight-based process, as it would ignore the lower density of crema. Remember, those machines measure the volume of water in - before it hits the coffee - so it didn’t vary with fresh/dark vs old/light roasts. I’m still running a Pasquini Livia 90 auto machine. Sure enough, I used the auto volumetric feature in the pre-scale days and got pretty consistent results. Now that I use a scale, I should do some tests of volumetric vs. weight vs. shot volume with different roasts. Fun stuff!
Thanks Jon! I’ve definitely toyed around with some volumetric machines, but not enough to speak on their accuracy, but like you mentioned the mechanics of it likely are more accurate since it’s not taking into account the roast, etc. But lately it seems many of the major manufacturers are building in scales and drip through times to get as accurate as possible to the modern ratios. That may actually make a fun video if I can get a machine that can do that. Thanks for watching and the thoughtful comment!
@@Sprometheus - I’m a weight convert now. The Lunar scale changed everything. I’m saving for a Linea Mini. There’s a tray for the Lunar, but I don’t think I want it. How does one rinse the portafilter with the scale there?!?
@@JonFairhurst yeah, or you can use a bottomless for a little extra space. The brew area is super tight on the Mini, but it’s a small price to pay for an amazing machine.
Question: Using the traditional shot 14g basket - Would it be beneficial to lower the pressure from 9 bar to maybe 7-8 bar to account for a smaller puck, and better control the flow rate? (rather than be limited by the smallest grind size to slow down the flow) As well - With a smaller puck should I aim for a 20-25s shot rather than a 25-30s shot ? It's hard to find any information on this or how it's commonly done in Italy using the preferred 14g double. Thank you
As a amateur, biggest problems for me is to workaround grinder retention, and potential channeling, two very linked problems. Weighing dose out is vital for me when changing beans, but after that, I often go by eyeballing the level. Usually the consistency is around 2 grams, and I've got bigger problems than that :) Cheers from Sweden, thanks for the good content, and keep them coming !
Vibration can help with distribution, so also help with channeling. Before temping, use hands to tap the portafilter, or slightly knock your portafilter on the edge of the bar table, this gives it a bit vibration so the coffee ground can crumble down to fill up any holes that may cause channeling.
@@Kinnnnnnnnn1 Interesting lifting that old comment, I now use the WDT tool, and after that I tap the portafilter down, to compact the bed, then tamp. Channeling can still be an issue, but mostly on too fine grind settings, and 45+ second shots, so they are not very good anyway.
@@daniel635biturbo Still channel even using WDT? Wow I didnt know channeling is that difficult to combat. Normally tapping + distributor are already good enough for me. Anyway thanks for your sharing!!
weight vs volume is similar to baking 1 cup of flour can VARY widely in weight depending on HOW you measured that 1 cup. For espresso, when I did/do it by volume, I measure at the top of the liquid, ignoring the foam. That seemed to be more repeatable.
I'm with you on weight being better than volume. But I also get pretty good results going scaleless with the Flair because it only holds so much water and it's wisest to use all of it for back pressure reasons; if my shot lands somewhere in the doppio-lungo spectrum it's gonna taste good even if it's a little different every time.
Yeah I don’t always use a scale with the hand press machines. I think part of it is just the manual nature of it, kind of feels like I should go in full manual.
at work we can easy do an 15g double to a total of 50-60g shorts. (25-30g/30cl per shot) I tried to do 18g and 36g out, but thats impossible on the machine we have in the timespan of 20-30sec. If I grind the beans that fine for it to work, the machine stops before anything comes out.
Who doesn't enjoy a little espresso roulette? So true. Once I get my brew dialed-in for the particular beans I'm using, I like to leave the scale in the cupboard occasionally. What's life without a little whimsy?
You should do a video on not using a tamper. When I saw la marzocco team at a local coffee shop, he was just using a distribution tool and not tamping.
This is the video I’ve been waiting for. Was trained on volume-based pulling and it has been hard to transition. Love the modern pull for when I’m just drinking the shot but with a 12oz latte, still tend toward a more traditional. Would a modern pull be good in a 12oz latte?
That’s an interesting point. I’d say being accurate with weight is more important when it comes to straight espresso, or shots going into smaller more coffee forward drinks. The modern and traditional shots would likely be hard to distinguish with 8-10 ounces of milk in the mix.
Yeah, i started making Cortados after your video and have been in love with them. But when family comes over, they like that traditional latte drink. Which is why I love that you always point out that coffee is a preferential drink. Everyone likes what they like.
I'm just starting out with a new espresso machine and am getting a bottomless portafilter. I'm not sure what basket size(s) I should get for making milk drinks (not a straight espresso drinker). 18g, 20g, 22g? What do you recommend that will cover me for lattes and cappuccinos? Thanks!
What I kinda find funny is the real traditional shot is 1:3. At least that's what they did and still do in Italy. Only in north America and other areas went to 1:2. Then we shifted back to 1:3 and more
Just to make sure that I got it correctly, on the new way of extraction double shot is basically 1:2 ratio. So if I put 17grams of coffee and got 34ml, thats doubleshot already?
Thanks for the great coffee vid on "double shot" anatomy. Kudos for a useful pithy synopsis of "The Double Shot". On this is better than that … coffee info an order of magnitude better than the Italian word pronunciation :-) Per l'amore di Dio! Use translation web sites … your phone or speaker assistant … just listen to the words at least once, just once. Cheers
For sure, and I am a supporter of that program. At least to my tastes, lighter roasts, especially the more fruity and bright ones, tend to be more complex and less acidic in longer pulls.
I'll take the modern double shot but with a traditional 14g dose on 15g VST 😆 to me the lower dose shot always taste more sweet and balanced compare to the higher dose shot. 14g double shot with 200ml milk still taste great in my experience.
I always drink a Doppio. One single shot of Espresso isn't enough. Currently picked up in take away Cafés which, it seems to me, don't care much about what you mentioned in the video. Even a double from my favorite Café tastes weak and weirdly not as great as any V60 filter which I brew at home.
@@Sprometheus Yes, honestly. Espresso shots got weaker when prepared for takeaway cups. Which is really sad. Some double Espresso shots were so weak, they tasted like a filter brew.
I never understood this: What do you need to change if you're doing a single shot espresso or a double shot? How do you select a single shot or double shot? If you're putting a certain amount of coffee in the portafilter and selecting a single shot, wouldn't the caffeine and coffee flavor be more intense compared to doing a double shot? Let's say you put 18g of coffee in portafilter, wouldn't the coffee intensity be more if you get 18g of espresso vs making a 36g of double shot espresso since the only difference for the double shot is just twice the water so it is more diluted in the end? Please help
You switch your basket I think. On a machine I guess a machine it just runs half the water over the grounds. So it should be more intense but unintentionally. But also it’s not a full extraction
I enjoy your videos.... I generally brew double shots 17g coffee/34g espresso... having watched your recent video about frozen coffee, I'm wondering which is more concentrated - espresso (17/34) or cold brew (10-12 hour brew time)? And, what ratio would *you* suggest for cold brew in order to answer the question?
I find this topic interesting, 1 fluid ounce weighs 28.35 grams, 2 fluid ounces weigh 56.70 grams, therefore a traditional double should weigh 56 grams. I would weigh the yield, not measure by volume, but to say that it is standard to have a 1:2 ratio means that most doubles would actually be closer to one ounce, 14 grams in, 28 out, or 18 in 36 out, in fact, the modern double is a form of a ristretto requiring a finer grind of coffee to slow the extraction down. 42 grams out is 1.5 ounces not a double. This becomes more pronounced when making 2 1 ounce drinks, don't you want 1 full ounce per drink?
@@jorgenvandeburgt8670 1 shot traditionally equals 1 ounce or 30 ml, 2 shots traditionally equal 2 ounces or 60 ml. There has been a shift away from using volume to measure yield, 2 ounces or 60 ml, to now weighing the yield. My point as outlined above is that the double shot should be weighed as 56 grams, not the restricted 1:2 ratio, for eg 17 grams in, 34 grams out, as this is far less than the tradional 2 ounces or 60 mls or if weighed, 56 grams.
@@jakevan1969 But there is differing weight per volume for liquid versus foam. A traditional double at 60ml could therefore weigh anywhere between say 40 to 60 grams. By moving to weight you remove that variable. Now I might misunderstand fluid ounces, but you can’t say that a certain volume of liquid will have a certain weight. A volume of water has a different weight than an equal volume of coffee as coffee will have extracted solids in it.
@@jorgenvandeburgt8670 Ok, first of all, thanks for the reply, I appreciate the conversation. As is outlined in this video, Sprometheus contends that the traditional double is a 1:4 ratio, 14 grams in, 60 mls out. I agree that yield should be weighed, in imperial that is 2 fluid ounces that weighs 28 grams per ounce or 56 grams, or the equivelant in volume of exactly 59.147 mls. If we stay with the traditional recipe with a 1:4 ratio, 14 grams in would result in 56 grams out, or approx. 2 ounces or 60 mls. Yes, I agree crema takes up volume in the shot cup, however, when weighing yield you get around this, and when letting the shot sit and crema dissipate, you soon realize that 56 grams is approx. 2 ounces or 60 ml, 30, 32, 38 grams are less in volume. Does a 1:2 ratio make sense when making a "double" or 2 single shots, if 16 grams in results in 32 grams out which is just over a traditional single by volume? Could you make 2 coffee drinks or serve 2 single espressos from a 32 grams yield, or would a larger volume make more sense, 2x 1 ounce/30 mls?
I know you have used 17ft cieling from Blue bottle before, curious what brew ratios you are using with that. I also have the Linea Mini, but have mostly been using 20.5 grams at a 1:1 ratio as suggested on the bag.
First, love your videos. Second, I'm new to all this. I have a Flair 58 and am having to good results. That being said, I have noticed that shots taste different from a 15g basket than they do with an 18g basket. Both baskets I am using are VST precision ones. Same coffee dialed to about the same output time and ratio have different tastes. Is this me, or is that normal? Basically I am trying to figure out if I need to fix something, or if I am chasing my tail on something that is normal and cannot be avoided. Thank you!
Traditional and modern don't really "meet in the middle" at 25s - traditional is 25s from first drip, while 3rd wavers count from pump start (or even from start of preinfusion).
Are you sure about this? .. To me ~25s of drawdown extraction is very long, isn't it? ... Coupled with lesser in doses, it sounds like you will end up with an uber-extracted cup.
Instead of trying to pigeon-hole all coffees into a prescribed brew ratio/extraction time, why not tailor the aforementioned to the particulars of each coffee?
Do you measure the 25-30seconds from the first drop in the cup, or once you switch the brew on, or after some preinfusion? I'm working with the Lelit Bianca myself, and I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly :) I use the paddle flow control to limit the flow so I don't get a first drop of coffee until around 10-12 seconds and then I aim to hit the 40g mark (I start with 20g) at around 35-36 seconds. So can I say my coffee is in this 25-30seconds range, or should I be counting the first 10-12 seconds too, or a part of it?
I always count extraction from the moment the pump is on. This is because extraction starts when water hits the coffee, whether it’s full pressure or line. I wouldn’t get caught up much in time, especially if you’re using pre-infusion or pre-brewing, plus it’ll help you with repeatability.
@@Sprometheus - I do the same. Start the timer immediately. The key is consistency. Dial in for taste. If it takes too long, the grind is too fine, and it will taste bitter. Too quick, and it’s too coarse, and will taste sour. Find the balance point, and use that as your target time. For my machine, it’s 30-seconds for almost any bean. Your grinder and machine may vary.
"Normale", as if that were the Italian name of a regular espresso shot. (Spoiler alert, it's not - anything longer than a ristretto but shorter than a lungo is a _corto_ )
Looking to buy my first espresso cups and I can’t decide on the size. Should I go with 2oz, 2.5oz or 3oz? Planning to add a bit of milk to it. Also, should I go with double glass or porcelain? Holder or no holder?
Hey Prometheus, my work is opting to get a coffee machine with a higher than standard group handle so that we can do larger beverages in mugs and bigger TA cups over 12oz. I find that if I'm doing espressos in our 80ml ceramic cups that the group handle is too high. I usually invert a cappuccino cup n place my espresso cup as close as I can to the porter filter so it doesn't splatter everywhere. Or do U recommend another riser/platform that I could use instead?
Absolutely nailed the truth here, the plethora of variables in making espresso are what makes it the most frustrating of hobbies when seeking perfection (if that exists) and also the most rewarding when you get what you are actually aiming for (rare for us noobs). It also leaves the space for a lot of "Emperors new Espresso" gadgets to tempt the unwary into spending lots on a "magic fix". Good water, fresh beans and experimentation are what will take you to temporary satisfaction (Then you change beans and start all over again).
Last words was good , just make the shot, don't overengineer it. You will still make better shot than all automatic machine and better than most coffee shops.
How many people have a nice espresso machine and make good espresso everyday without weighing or timing anything? Very serious question, I'd like to see what you all have to say.
A “nice espresso machine” is a little vague. But my guess is most people who is invest in an espresso set up likely do some weighting, if at the very least the dose.
@@Sprometheus I myself will definitely be weighing everything. Im about to get a Breville Barista express, right now I have the $40 Mr Coffee espresso machine. My fiance used to have the Breville she never weighed anything but loved the espresso she got out of it
The 1:2 ratio stays the same. If you put 17 you will get 34 grams, if you put 20 then you will get 40 grams. The coffee will be the same. The dose depends on how big your basket is
All this time I've thought "double shot" = twice the caffeine. Am I right in saying it just means more liquid, and then not necessarily "twice as strong"?
No, you’re wrong... extracting 17g of coffee has more caffeine than when you extract from 7g... it’s simple in 40g of coffee you will find more caffeine then in 20g
i think modern espresso is made to be easy to teach . it is verry reductionist. feels abit like capitalism putting efficiency and ease of training before variety of flavours . i think every milk drink needs different shots (ristretto lungo etc) with different roasts . but that would require more trained barristas. but when we learn to be home barista i think that learning the way they teach in coffeeshops in america wint lead to quality as it has been modified mostly for profit .
I don't get it why people from the US, even pros, call a double shot the standard for a cappuccino. That's just not right. No one in Italy drinks a "doppio" except for tourists and same goes for a large cappuccino/cappuccino with a double shot. So don't call it a standard.
I’ll never understand the “in Italy...” response. Yeah, so? They have their coffee culture, and we have ours. In the US the double is standard. Ask for a single shot you’ll get a single pull of espresso, which is a double. You’ll have a hard time finding a true single shot here.
Ben, i´m with you. And it is not just in Italy, but in most of Europe (i live in Denmark). I find it ok that baristas in the US have their own standards, but they could at least be so humble that they mentioned how things originally were. Unlike pizza, or chicken chop suey, there is no doubt of who invented espresso.
@@Sprometheus Then you should stop calling it espresso because it's not. If you change the ratio, you changed the structure of that drink. Btw, the Italian government started an initiative at UNESCO to protect espresso and is intended to protect and restrict that coffee drink, because it's a cultural heritage and part of Italian tradition. The same way as France protected champagne, or scotch, or parmesan cheese. So you won't be able to call something espresso, cappuccino or anything else that clearly is not that. Everyone is entitled to make their own coffee how they like, just you cant give them incorrect names. You can call it amerpresso, or uspresso or whatever you like... Bonus mark: In Italia no one actually use the term espresso. We call it il caffè, or un caffè when order, and it goes without saying that it's espresso, because that's the default coffee in Italia. When someone in the bar orders espresso, we immediately know he/she is a tourist. Also when they order a cappuccino after 10-11h, because no Italian ever drinks a milk-based drink in the afternoon, only for the breakfast.
So Italians were drinking wrong, bad tasting type of espresso all along? Come on speciality coffee people! Missing the point yet again. You need to use the beans meant for traditional recipe, and preferably some, wait for it: ROBUSTA😮 There is so much more to it though, but you would need to visit Italy.
Espresso always tastes better when the pinky is pointed towards the heavens 😉
Facts are facts!
Pinkie points to God to beg for that shot...! 😩🤙🏾
Can't be truer than this 😁
I realize this video was posted 3 months ago, but I just stumbled into it. THANK YOU! Finally see/hear a straightforward explanation of Traditional vs Modern Espresso. I grew up in Puerto Rico driniking espresso since I was 10 years old four decades ago. I've had thousands of roasts over the years made with different preparation methods. I personally have stuck with the Traditional (well, my own version is 15g in 60g out) and ocassionally try some roasts using the Modern guidelines. I have found more often than not that "Modern" method is used as a generalized preparation method that doesn't apply to the coffee being brewed. This goes for any coffee houses from S'bucks to local. The 'Modern' method can make a beautiful traditional espresso to a sour/bitter/pungent unpleasant experience, but I personally think it's because the 'Modern' method is quite often applied in combination with milk, which balances out the taste. I like my espresso straight or with brown sugar 'to taste'. My setup includes a Gaggia Classic Pro, Eureka Mignon Silenzio grinder (and other manual grinders), as well as a Turkish coffee pot, French Press, a Bialetti Moka Espress and a Staresso Portable Espresso maker.
I'm a baker and scaling ingredients is part of the job. It's probably why I got hooked so quickly into espresso. Scales will always help with consistency, but it's not a guarantee. Not every batch of bread is going to be the same, and I don't expect coffee to be any different in that aspect. From some of these videos and comments, I get the impression a lot of people really do expect espresso shots to be the same every time. Is that the vibe or am I off on this one? Nice video, by the way. I prefer a ratio of 1:2.5 for my shots.
1:2.5, I agree!
I think the thing is that a lot of people think ratio is the only factor affecting anything when there are a lot more things to consider. Like making sure one thing is the same causes everything else to be the same as well
I'm old school. I worked in cafes back in the early 90s. I got a lot of compliments on my drinks, too. Nothing was consistent back then. When people ordered, they would specifically ask me to make it because they knew I made it the way they wanted. So not only was every cafe different, every barista was, too. In those days, you often got a lot of pleasant surprises. There was a lot of creativity. At the same time, there was also a lot of BAD coffee. The level of knowledge broadly throughout the industry was much lower.
Fast forward to this year. I got a machine and started doing a little research to see what's happened in nearly 30 years since I touched one of these things. When I first heard about ratios I thought it was a bunch of OCD nonsense, but I can honestly say that weighing my dose and playing with ratios has made me better than I was back then.
I agree with what you're saying, though. There's limits to how much you can control something. And I think for some, it's also a form of ritual. They put so much effort in the ritual they think it must be making their coffee better. When I see someone tamping and polishing like five times I just shake my head. Or throwing one more bean in the grinder because their dose is 0.1 grams off. Some people take it so far they forgot 1) It's just coffee, not a cure for cancer, and 2) It's meant to be enjoyed, not turned into a bean accounting job.
@@jcasetnl You hit a lot of good points. The ratios and weighing help keep things in check in a big way. The ritual is also a big part, even for me. After a while, you start enjoying the process of it all. Like you, I cringe a bit when I see people adding that last bean for 0.1 grams. LOL With that said, I'm not paying $300 for a scale. NEVER! Lastly, like you said, it's just coffee. Nothing about it is set in stone, so enjoy it for what it is.
I believe fully that if you have everything dialled In, you know what you’re doing and you’re consistent. The product if done right will ALWAYS be the same if not at least 98% consistent. To say that you can’t do the same thing twice or even more than that isn’t very optimistic nor is it correct.
But that’s just my opinion hehe.
"who does not enjoy a little espresso roulette?" :D lol that's good one
I love that kind of madness and I think 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 are most of the times better with better roasted coffee (which I prefer). In Italy (with the classic italian mix and roasted coffee would be really bitter) a double shot a "doppio" is literally a double shot. The standard shot is 7g of coffee in 25 out (this is a normale), a doppio is 14g of coffee in 50g out (theoretically none measure the input or output).
In all the years I ran a coffee shop in Europe, I never really paid attention to either strict volume measurements or weight ratios. I can pull shots all day and not tell you how much they weigh or how many ml they are, but each one will taste good. Starting with a dose measurement for a single (you have to know how many shots you're getting per kilo when you're running a business...) of approx. 7.5 grams, I knew more or less how much I wanted to fill a cup - around 25ml. At that point it's a question of consistency of the liquid. I guess it's a feel I developed for making espresso that I could see when to stop the shot and that's important because every coffee bean is different and there are only so many coffee beans in a shot and that affects each shot. A double was exactly that - two singles. There's a double spout on the portafilter with the deeper basket because it's for making - you guessed it - two single espressos, and you want them to taste the same as a single pulled from the single shot portafilter.
I think a lot of the misconceptions in American espresso culture actually originated with some weird things Kenneth Davids propounded back in the 70s and 80s like proportions for cappuccino (1/3 espresso, 1/3 milk, 1/3 foam) which weren't in line with Italian habits at the time or the norms now (25 ml espresso shot, 100 ml steamed milk) and his unresearched recipes went on to shape American espresso culture. Italians didn't use a double shot for cappuccino so his ratios couldn't work in a standard 160 ml (6 fl. oz.) cappuccino cup. I also enjoy drinking multiple espressos per day and the caffeine difference between singles and doubles mean that I don't want to be slamming doubles all the time. I want to enjoy my espresso, and supersizing it works against me.
I think you're spot on with this. It has also to do with the difference in the drinking experience in the US and Italy. In the US (and many new coffeebars in Europe) the bar is a place where you are supposed to sit for a long time, talking to friends, check your computer/phone, take selfies etc., where in Italy a coffeebar is mostly quick in, get a single espresso, say a few words to the barista (although in some places i've found that talking is reserved for the absolute locals ;-)) - and then back to work. Even in the middle of Rome, business guys in tight suits will park their car illegal with flashing blinkers, get in, have an espresso, and then go back to the car. That's why the bars often have two prices: One "bar" price, like 0,80 Euro - and one café price like 1,20 Euro. If you occupy more space/time, you'll pay more! And yes, nearly all machines are manual or volumetric in these bars. Why make things complicated?
+10 points for the Spongebob clip.
Haha it’s not the first time, nor will it be the last!
Fancy Patric
That alone deserves a thumb up.
@@tidalkingv It deserves a fancy pinky up.
@@autumn_of_thought haha, yes. we should lobby TH-cam for an pinky emoj
Great information and no fluff in the presentation. Minimum of window dressing and right to the good stuff. Thanks!
Finally truth and clarity, superbly done. Bravo, always fun and informative, thank you
Thanks Orrin! I appreciate the kind words!
@@Sprometheus your welcome ☕️☕️😊
Great video on the core espresso drink. Some time ago, there was research that showed that a volumetric machine got the best results (before weight was a thing.) I wonder if the volumetric machines were better at measuring the volume of actual liquid, compared to the volume of the completed shot. That would make it a bit closer to a weight-based process, as it would ignore the lower density of crema. Remember, those machines measure the volume of water in - before it hits the coffee - so it didn’t vary with fresh/dark vs old/light roasts.
I’m still running a Pasquini Livia 90 auto machine. Sure enough, I used the auto volumetric feature in the pre-scale days and got pretty consistent results. Now that I use a scale, I should do some tests of volumetric vs. weight vs. shot volume with different roasts.
Fun stuff!
Thanks Jon! I’ve definitely toyed around with some volumetric machines, but not enough to speak on their accuracy, but like you mentioned the mechanics of it likely are more accurate since it’s not taking into account the roast, etc.
But lately it seems many of the major manufacturers are building in scales and drip through times to get as accurate as possible to the modern ratios. That may actually make a fun video if I can get a machine that can do that.
Thanks for watching and the thoughtful comment!
@@Sprometheus - I’m a weight convert now. The Lunar scale changed everything.
I’m saving for a Linea Mini. There’s a tray for the Lunar, but I don’t think I want it. How does one rinse the portafilter with the scale there?!?
@@JonFairhurst haha yeah you have to remove the scale. It’s not a great design in terms of workflow.
@@Sprometheus - Looks nice though. Makes sense if you brew into tall cups, I guess.
@@JonFairhurst yeah, or you can use a bottomless for a little extra space. The brew area is super tight on the Mini, but it’s a small price to pay for an amazing machine.
Question: Using the traditional shot 14g basket - Would it be beneficial to lower the pressure from 9 bar to maybe 7-8 bar to account for a smaller puck, and better control the flow rate? (rather than be limited by the smallest grind size to slow down the flow)
As well - With a smaller puck should I aim for a 20-25s shot rather than a 25-30s shot ?
It's hard to find any information on this or how it's commonly done in Italy using the preferred 14g double. Thank you
I have to agree with you about the weighted vs volume is integral to consistent shots. Except, of course "Espresso Roulette!" 😂
It’s a risky game, but I play it often! Haha
As a amateur, biggest problems for me is to workaround grinder retention, and potential channeling, two very linked problems.
Weighing dose out is vital for me when changing beans, but after that, I often go by eyeballing the level.
Usually the consistency is around 2 grams, and I've got bigger problems than that :)
Cheers from Sweden, thanks for the good content, and keep them coming !
Vibration can help with distribution, so also help with channeling. Before temping, use hands to tap the portafilter, or slightly knock your portafilter on the edge of the bar table, this gives it a bit vibration so the coffee ground can crumble down to fill up any holes that may cause channeling.
@@Kinnnnnnnnn1 Interesting lifting that old comment, I now use the WDT tool, and after that I tap the portafilter down, to compact the bed, then tamp.
Channeling can still be an issue, but mostly on too fine grind settings, and 45+ second shots, so they are not very good anyway.
@@daniel635biturbo Still channel even using WDT? Wow I didnt know channeling is that difficult to combat. Normally tapping + distributor are already good enough for me. Anyway thanks for your sharing!!
weight vs volume is similar to baking 1 cup of flour can VARY widely in weight depending on HOW you measured that 1 cup.
For espresso, when I did/do it by volume, I measure at the top of the liquid, ignoring the foam. That seemed to be more repeatable.
My go to recipe is 20g in, 40g out, in about 35"
9 bar pressure, 94° celsius
Is the 35s time from the lever actuation or the first drop of espresso?
@@johnayres2303 you must count from the first moment the water touches the coffee, which means from the time you press the button/lever
By pure curiosity, is 207 degrees F considered normal (4:29)? I've always pulled mine around 197-200. I'm very open to trying tho!
Those are some beautiful shots. I'm jealous.
Lately I've discovered the lungo Nuoveau a brew ratio 1:4,with a coarser grinding and I guess extraction time around 35 seconds
"Espresso Roulette". I love it!
I'm now doing 18g in, 40g out. I used to do 36 out but that extra little sip is always welcome!
I'm with you on weight being better than volume. But I also get pretty good results going scaleless with the Flair because it only holds so much water and it's wisest to use all of it for back pressure reasons; if my shot lands somewhere in the doppio-lungo spectrum it's gonna taste good even if it's a little different every time.
Yeah I don’t always use a scale with the hand press machines. I think part of it is just the manual nature of it, kind of feels like I should go in full manual.
Now we need an Espresso Roulette recipe 🤣
That’s an easy one!
@@Sprometheus I thought that was James H and the brewing of the very old coffee video.
After decades of making doubles, I finally realized the Italians have it right with the single shots. Less acidity and more balanced
But they're not drinking light roasts over there.
@@bluemystic7501 maybe in southern Italy but they definitely drink lighter roast in northern Italy
at work we can easy do an 15g double to a total of 50-60g shorts. (25-30g/30cl per shot)
I tried to do 18g and 36g out, but thats impossible on the machine we have in the timespan of 20-30sec.
If I grind the beans that fine for it to work, the machine stops before anything comes out.
Who doesn't enjoy a little espresso roulette? So true. Once I get my brew dialed-in for the particular beans I'm using, I like to leave the scale in the cupboard occasionally. What's life without a little whimsy?
You should do a video on not using a tamper. When I saw la marzocco team at a local coffee shop, he was just using a distribution tool and not tamping.
I actually did that awhile back, search for “To Tamp Or Not to Tamp”.
This is the video I’ve been waiting for. Was trained on volume-based pulling and it has been hard to transition. Love the modern pull for when I’m just drinking the shot but with a 12oz latte, still tend toward a more traditional. Would a modern pull be good in a 12oz latte?
That’s an interesting point. I’d say being accurate with weight is more important when it comes to straight espresso, or shots going into smaller more coffee forward drinks. The modern and traditional shots would likely be hard to distinguish with 8-10 ounces of milk in the mix.
Yeah, i started making Cortados after your video and have been in love with them. But when family comes over, they like that traditional latte drink. Which is why I love that you always point out that coffee is a preferential drink. Everyone likes what they like.
What type of espresso machine is better if budget is around $3k HX or dual boiler and what do you think is a great brand? Thank you!
Doesnt the extraction time change if my machine is making espresso at 15 bar? i cant get mine past 16 sec
I'm just starting out with a new espresso machine and am getting a bottomless portafilter. I'm not sure what basket size(s) I should get for making milk drinks (not a straight espresso drinker). 18g, 20g, 22g? What do you recommend that will cover me for lattes and cappuccinos? Thanks!
What I kinda find funny is the real traditional shot is 1:3. At least that's what they did and still do in Italy. Only in north America and other areas went to 1:2. Then we shifted back to 1:3 and more
Love the carton, too
wow thanks so much for the clarification
Happy to help!
Just to make sure that I got it correctly, on the new way of extraction double shot is basically 1:2 ratio.
So if I put 17grams of coffee and got 34ml, thats doubleshot already?
What is the make of the scale you are using and are you happy with it? Thanks
Thanks for the great coffee vid on "double shot" anatomy. Kudos for a useful pithy synopsis of "The Double Shot". On this is better than that … coffee info an order of magnitude better than the Italian word pronunciation :-) Per l'amore di Dio! Use translation web sites … your phone or speaker assistant … just listen to the words at least once, just once. Cheers
I’ll ask Alexa right now...
Some modern shops are starting to do light roasts and a 1:2.5-1:3 ratio
For sure, and I am a supporter of that program. At least to my tastes, lighter roasts, especially the more fruity and bright ones, tend to be more complex and less acidic in longer pulls.
yup im drinking ethiopia and kenyas at right around 1:3 it's so good
I'll take the modern double shot but with a traditional 14g dose on 15g VST 😆 to me the lower dose shot always taste more sweet and balanced compare to the higher dose shot. 14g double shot with 200ml milk still taste great in my experience.
I’ve been toying with lowering my doses even more. Maybe I’ll do a video about it.
@@Sprometheus yay 🙌 can't wait too see the video 🙏😃
I always drink a Doppio. One single shot of Espresso isn't enough. Currently picked up in take away Cafés which, it seems to me, don't care much about what you mentioned in the video. Even a double from my favorite Café tastes weak and weirdly not as great as any V60 filter which I brew at home.
That’s interesting. Did you find the shots got weaker when cafes moved to takeaway versus in seated in the cafe?
@@Sprometheus Yes, honestly. Espresso shots got weaker when prepared for takeaway cups. Which is really sad. Some double Espresso shots were so weak, they tasted like a filter brew.
I never understood this: What do you need to change if you're doing a single shot espresso or a double shot? How do you select a single shot or double shot? If you're putting a certain amount of coffee in the portafilter and selecting a single shot, wouldn't the caffeine and coffee flavor be more intense compared to doing a double shot? Let's say you put 18g of coffee in portafilter, wouldn't the coffee intensity be more if you get 18g of espresso vs making a 36g of double shot espresso since the only difference for the double shot is just twice the water so it is more diluted in the end? Please help
You switch your basket I think. On a machine I guess a machine it just runs half the water over the grounds. So it should be more intense but unintentionally. But also it’s not a full extraction
You would’ve wanted to grind coarser and wind up with a 1:1
3:39 that shot was so good it made him angry
That’s just my resting D face.
@@Sprometheus LOL
What brand/exact basket were you using for the modern double?
I’m using the La Marzocco Strada 17g basket
Thanks Spro.
What is the Best Coffe Powder for Espresso?
I enjoy your videos....
I generally brew double shots 17g coffee/34g espresso... having watched your recent video about frozen coffee, I'm wondering which is more concentrated - espresso (17/34) or cold brew (10-12 hour brew time)? And, what ratio would *you* suggest for cold brew in order to answer the question?
Espresso is way more concentrated than cold brew
The other debate in the coffee community is the ratio for cafe latte, capp, americano etc.
I find this topic interesting, 1 fluid ounce weighs 28.35 grams, 2 fluid ounces weigh 56.70 grams, therefore a traditional double should weigh 56 grams. I would weigh the yield, not measure by volume, but to say that it is standard to have a 1:2 ratio means that most doubles would actually be closer to one ounce, 14 grams in, 28 out, or 18 in 36 out, in fact, the modern double is a form of a ristretto requiring a finer grind of coffee to slow the extraction down. 42 grams out is 1.5 ounces not a double. This becomes more pronounced when making 2 1 ounce drinks, don't you want 1 full ounce per drink?
I’m trying to decipher this, but I only understand metric.
@@jorgenvandeburgt8670 1 shot traditionally equals 1 ounce or 30 ml, 2 shots traditionally equal 2 ounces or 60 ml. There has been a shift away from using volume to measure yield, 2 ounces or 60 ml, to now weighing the yield. My point as outlined above is that the double shot should be weighed as 56 grams, not the restricted 1:2 ratio, for eg 17 grams in, 34 grams out, as this is far less than the tradional 2 ounces or 60 mls or if weighed, 56 grams.
@@jakevan1969 But there is differing weight per volume for liquid versus foam. A traditional double at 60ml could therefore weigh anywhere between say 40 to 60 grams. By moving to weight you remove that variable. Now I might misunderstand fluid ounces, but you can’t say that a certain volume of liquid will have a certain weight. A volume of water has a different weight than an equal volume of coffee as coffee will have extracted solids in it.
@@jorgenvandeburgt8670 I still don't understand imperials too.
@@jorgenvandeburgt8670 Ok, first of all, thanks for the reply, I appreciate the conversation. As is outlined in this video, Sprometheus contends that the traditional double is a 1:4 ratio, 14 grams in, 60 mls out. I agree that yield should be weighed, in imperial that is 2 fluid ounces that weighs 28 grams per ounce or 56 grams, or the equivelant in volume of exactly 59.147 mls. If we stay with the traditional recipe with a 1:4 ratio, 14 grams in would result in 56 grams out, or approx. 2 ounces or 60 mls.
Yes, I agree crema takes up volume in the shot cup, however, when weighing yield you get around this, and when letting the shot sit and crema dissipate, you soon realize that 56 grams is approx. 2 ounces or 60 ml, 30, 32, 38 grams are less in volume. Does a 1:2 ratio make sense when making a "double" or 2 single shots, if 16 grams in results in 32 grams out which is just over a traditional single by volume? Could you make 2 coffee drinks or serve 2 single espressos from a 32 grams yield, or would a larger volume make more sense, 2x 1 ounce/30 mls?
I know you have used 17ft cieling from Blue bottle before, curious what brew ratios you are using with that. I also have the Linea Mini, but have mostly been using 20.5 grams at a 1:1 ratio as suggested on the bag.
First, love your videos. Second, I'm new to all this. I have a Flair 58 and am having to good results. That being said, I have noticed that shots taste different from a 15g basket than they do with an 18g basket. Both baskets I am using are VST precision ones. Same coffee dialed to about the same output time and ratio have different tastes. Is this me, or is that normal? Basically I am trying to figure out if I need to fix something, or if I am chasing my tail on something that is normal and cannot be avoided. Thank you!
Traditional and modern don't really "meet in the middle" at 25s - traditional is 25s from first drip, while 3rd wavers count from pump start (or even from start of preinfusion).
Are you sure about this? .. To me ~25s of drawdown extraction is very long, isn't it? ... Coupled with lesser in doses, it sounds like you will end up with an uber-extracted cup.
Very well covered !
Great edit
Thank you my friend!
Great video as always bro! 💪💪💪
Instead of trying to pigeon-hole all coffees into a prescribed brew ratio/extraction time, why not tailor the aforementioned to the particulars of each coffee?
Do you measure the 25-30seconds from the first drop in the cup, or once you switch the brew on, or after some preinfusion?
I'm working with the Lelit Bianca myself, and I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly :) I use the paddle flow control to limit the flow so I don't get a first drop of coffee until around 10-12 seconds and then I aim to hit the 40g mark (I start with 20g) at around 35-36 seconds. So can I say my coffee is in this 25-30seconds range, or should I be counting the first 10-12 seconds too, or a part of it?
I always count extraction from the moment the pump is on. This is because extraction starts when water hits the coffee, whether it’s full pressure or line. I wouldn’t get caught up much in time, especially if you’re using pre-infusion or pre-brewing, plus it’ll help you with repeatability.
@@Sprometheus - I do the same. Start the timer immediately. The key is consistency. Dial in for taste. If it takes too long, the grind is too fine, and it will taste bitter. Too quick, and it’s too coarse, and will taste sour. Find the balance point, and use that as your target time. For my machine, it’s 30-seconds for almost any bean. Your grinder and machine may vary.
I still say a Doppio, rather than double espresso...
Are you from st kilda?
@@altacalifornio5375
Not that I know of
"Normale", as if that were the Italian name of a regular espresso shot. (Spoiler alert, it's not - anything longer than a ristretto but shorter than a lungo is a _corto_ )
Espresso Roulette should be on the menu
Looking to buy my first espresso cups and I can’t decide on the size. Should I go with 2oz, 2.5oz or 3oz? Planning to add a bit of milk to it. Also, should I go with double glass or porcelain? Holder or no holder?
Great video. Scored another subscriber!
Just let it ride... Espresso roulette 🤣🤣🤣
Sometimes it’s the only way
Hey Prometheus, my work is opting to get a coffee machine with a higher than standard group handle so that we can do larger beverages in mugs and bigger TA cups over 12oz.
I find that if I'm doing espressos in our 80ml ceramic cups that the group handle is too high. I usually invert a cappuccino cup n place my espresso cup as close as I can to the porter filter so it doesn't splatter everywhere. Or do U recommend another riser/platform that I could use instead?
Absolutely nailed the truth here, the plethora of variables in making espresso are what makes it the most frustrating of hobbies when seeking perfection (if that exists) and also the most rewarding when you get what you are actually aiming for (rare for us noobs). It also leaves the space for a lot of "Emperors new Espresso" gadgets to tempt the unwary into spending lots on a "magic fix". Good water, fresh beans and experimentation are what will take you to temporary satisfaction (Then you change beans and start all over again).
Last words was good , just make the shot, don't overengineer it. You will still make better shot than all automatic machine and better than most coffee shops.
Absolutely. It’s easy to overthink, just use ratios as a starting point and then explore from there.
You gotta do the Coffee Shot next
Are you talking about the low pressure, drip coffee from the espresso machine? Because if you are, it’s on the list.
@@Sprometheus either that or the Matt Perger style where it’s a coarser grind and a long pull - basically a caffe crema right?
@@nameisjoey9985 there was a debate back when I did the Lungo video that it is a cafe crema. I’ll have to look into this one more.
@@Sprometheus As far as I understand it, a lungo is a long pull, like 3:1. A cafe crema is basically a 8oz pull, essentially a “coffee shot”
@@nameisjoey9985 I have a hard time thinking that would taste good, that’s a lot of water through a puck. I may give it a try though, for science.
People still use volume measurement?
I like patrick.👍
He’s a good guy.
Chill music intro into high volume dialogue. Great content, just dial back the volume a bit and enunciate please!
Yeah, had that thought too - maybe wear a lapel mic so you're not having to speak so loudly? Or just add more commentary in post?
How many people have a nice espresso machine and make good espresso everyday without weighing or timing anything? Very serious question, I'd like to see what you all have to say.
A “nice espresso machine” is a little vague. But my guess is most people who is invest in an espresso set up likely do some weighting, if at the very least the dose.
@@Sprometheus I guess by "nice" I mean like a Breville Barista express for example
@@Sprometheus I myself will definitely be weighing everything. Im about to get a Breville Barista express, right now I have the $40 Mr Coffee espresso machine. My fiance used to have the Breville she never weighed anything but loved the espresso she got out of it
I take my battle moka out and for steaming my french press ahhahahah I have a fancy pouring jug and a fancy cup though
I bet ragusea makes his fucking espresso by volume and will defend it to the day he dies though
Most of my shots come out as abby normale.
We’re all a bit Abby normale.
Tradition Made in Italy. Espresso in Napoli top
Sorry but how many grams of coffee did you put in the 17 grams basket? 17? For double shot?
I use 20 grams for double shot and it comes out intense!
The 1:2 ratio stays the same. If you put 17 you will get 34 grams, if you put 20 then you will get 40 grams. The coffee will be the same. The dose depends on how big your basket is
I’d like to try a ‘God Shot’!
They moved!
You have switched it around.... Your modern is almost Italian old school as per the brew ratio.... Forget volume always weight for sure!
All this time I've thought "double shot" = twice the caffeine. Am I right in saying it just means more liquid, and then not necessarily "twice as strong"?
No, you’re wrong... extracting 17g of coffee has more caffeine than when you extract from 7g... it’s simple in 40g of coffee you will find more caffeine then in 20g
Glourius beard dude.
i think modern espresso is made to be easy to teach . it is verry reductionist. feels abit like capitalism putting efficiency and ease of training before variety of flavours . i think every milk drink needs different shots (ristretto lungo etc) with different roasts . but that would require more trained barristas. but when we learn to be home barista i think that learning the way they teach in coffeeshops in america wint lead to quality as it has been modified mostly for profit .
I didn’t understand anything. Maybe make a video for amateurs?
I don't get it why people from the US, even pros, call a double shot the standard for a cappuccino. That's just not right. No one in Italy drinks a "doppio" except for tourists and same goes for a large cappuccino/cappuccino with a double shot. So don't call it a standard.
I’ll never understand the “in Italy...” response. Yeah, so? They have their coffee culture, and we have ours. In the US the double is standard. Ask for a single shot you’ll get a single pull of espresso, which is a double. You’ll have a hard time finding a true single shot here.
Ben, i´m with you. And it is not just in Italy, but in most of Europe (i live in Denmark). I find it ok that baristas in the US have their own standards, but they could at least be so humble that they mentioned how things originally were. Unlike pizza, or chicken chop suey, there is no doubt of who invented espresso.
@@Sprometheus Then you should stop calling it espresso because it's not. If you change the ratio, you changed the structure of that drink. Btw, the Italian government started an initiative at UNESCO to protect espresso and is intended to protect and restrict that coffee drink, because it's a cultural heritage and part of Italian tradition. The same way as France protected champagne, or scotch, or parmesan cheese. So you won't be able to call something espresso, cappuccino or anything else that clearly is not that. Everyone is entitled to make their own coffee how they like, just you cant give them incorrect names. You can call it amerpresso, or uspresso or whatever you like... Bonus mark: In Italia no one actually use the term espresso. We call it il caffè, or un caffè when order, and it goes without saying that it's espresso, because that's the default coffee in Italia. When someone in the bar orders espresso, we immediately know he/she is a tourist. Also when they order a cappuccino after 10-11h, because no Italian ever drinks a milk-based drink in the afternoon, only for the breakfast.
Your videos are generally really informative, but please stop shouting to the camera! We hear you loud and clear!
So Italians were drinking wrong, bad tasting type of espresso all along? Come on speciality coffee people! Missing the point yet again. You need to use the beans meant for traditional recipe, and preferably some, wait for it: ROBUSTA😮 There is so much more to it though, but you would need to visit Italy.