I preformed a similar repair on my son's RX300 (same engine) with 171k miles. Because the knock (bank one) sensor failed overdrive would not engage ; same code set. I tried the aftermarket sensors mounted on the valve cove to no avail. Final fix was to splice the remaining functional sensor with the wiring for the dead one. I did the splice inside the cabin under the dash. Has been working like a charm for 2 years. Others on You Tube comment that non-OEM sensors don't work. I would have to agree.
Mine was the best car I ever owned. 2002 Went 303,000 before we donated it. I had a problem with the wiring harness to the knock sensor being eaten by a mouse and also around 250 k. had the same issue with my wiper motor, two of the male pins were totally corroded out. I ended up getting rid of the female connector, soldering all the wires to the buses inside the motor housing and epoxying the connector opening for water proofing, restored all the functionality of the wiper motor and delay function.
I had Volvo S60 with dead knock sensor. Engine started to knock when warm and loaded, but no codes ever. Knock sensors are under intake, so i did what you succesteg and it worked..
In the 80s and into the 90s I owned Mercedes automobiles and they were built like tanks. Then my wife and I had two 1998 models, an E-Class and a C-Class, and they were just junk compared to the ones we'd owned previously. So we got rid of them, and one of our purchases was a 2004 Toyota Highlander with the 3MZ-FE 3.3L V-6. It's now almost 19 years old with 400K on 'er and still going strong. Toyotas from that era were expensive, but worth every penny. I could walk away from the Highlander today and be satisfied, but it has years of life left.
Just to throw my 2 cents in. This is more for those people still learning about engine performance systems. But I've seen cases of false codes for knock sensors from a couple of other causes. For example, I've seen a couple of Honda's in my time, throwing both p0420 and the knock sensors codes. I've seen Catalytic converters that have gone bad and had one of the ceramic pucks break loose inside, and start making a popping/banging sound. And those vibrations have carried back through the exhaust into the engine block, causing the knock sensor to start picking up those extra vibrations, and throwing performance codes. Also on some of the Honda's that I've seen this, you will notice the Ignition timing will start to back off and retard, reducing performance noticeably. I've also seen straight exhaust leaks also cause false knock sensor codes. I guess anything that can knock or bang near the engine block can confuse the ECM. Just something to keep in mind in the future, to avoid firing the parts cannon.
This was technically a come-back. If the part installed goes bad, then it gets replaced if you have a warranty. The mileage/condition of the vehicle shouldn't matter. Unless you charge less for that condition as well initially (doubtful). That's why most mechanics charge what they do for labor hours and installations, it usually covers the occasional come-back repair over time.
I used to have a 2000 sienna and I had the same wiper problem. The middle pin corroded off, wonder if it is common. Sold the van to my neighbor with 495,000 miles and it now has 613,000 miles. Never have had any major issues. The 1mzfe is the best!
To be fair Ivan. I did knock sensors on a 2004 Toyota 4Runner a while back. Both sensors and the harness, all new OEM. Those sensors aren't cheap either. And one sensor failed in under 4k miles. This appears to be a known issue posted all over Toyota enthusiast forums. So, I wound up replacing the one bad sensor with a new Dorman unit and the MIL hasn't come back on for over 10k miles. I know, cheap aftermarket unit crap shoot. But thankfully, I got lucky.
I was hoping that linking the 2 wouldn't work. For me, that's a botched repair. Be better to at least use the known good knock sensor from the last job. I know it takes time, but sometimes we need to suck it up and just do it.
I knew you were going to replace that bulb. Even though it hurt. Good mechanic. Bought a 2000 Sienna off of a church that had been sitting for ten years, 87k miles. Fuel pump was bad, needed tank work, replaced pump with one off eBay, looked good, wouldn’t start, pulled front bank injectors, cycled them with 12 volts till click was strong, put them back, engine started, ran rough, after 20 minutes all injectors started working. Runs great. Still have to address air conditioning (leak). Didn’t realize the longevity of these things
Good going! I'll bet future ECM generations will reject signals if they are identical on both channels! I've seen some tricky stuff like that in industrial applications/ Made it impossible to fool the computer!
The decline of after market parts really accelerated when Covid got here and all the problems that it caused to the supply chain. I been buying what I need at the local dealer when available if not the local junk yard a used OEM part is better that the alternative.
Hope this works out OK, personally I'd be a little worried about splicing the sensors as you lose sensitivity to detect bank 1 knock events - the knock sensor positions are critical for getting an even representation of what is happening on each cylinder, across the full engine speed range and without interference from mechanical events like valve opening and closing etc - I can't help but wonder how different/attenuated the signal looks to the PCM when it is listening to bank 1 events 'remotely' via the bank 2 sensor (like listening to the TV from the room next door) I know it's not some super high performance high CR / turbo engine with a huge tendency to knock, but with high miles and probably some oil consumption I'd still be a bit concerned about potential knock damage at low speed / high load when driving up a hill in high ambient temps or something... Maybe I'm just too pessimistic 😁
Not too pessimistic at all Steve- Well said btw. I don't think this was a choice -Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics- made. Not sure. I would believe it is the customer who wants it done that way after the phone call as the car has gone pretty far in terms of what the value is of the car. "I believe"
Have to reach out an Thank you. You are a fair mechanic. Unlike places (dealerships) that go, "Duh, everythings gotta be changed, period! An yer getting charged for the diagnosis". They only thing they care about, is their own wallet. Doing this same thing for some dude, new to the area. You helped me with pin/wire I.D. I'll give him both options, he might just want to do the whole job? Don't know, we"ll see. Thanks again, good luck with your customers.
That's a bummer! Can't even trust a good brand name part! That extra little problem of the money light took more time and work than the reason for the comeback. Great solution and all is good now 🙂
Great Vid! I love watching vehicles that have successfully lasted so long (High Mileage) and continue to run great! It's a testament to doing maintenance regularly! Love your work...always top notch! You continue to amaze! Even has the right bulb in his stock to fix the check engine light! You're the best!
You won't get this kind of mileage out of ANYTHING built in the last 15 model years, however. The newer it is, the less your chances are, regardless of how much maintenance you do.
When you decided to tie knock sensor channels together I cried foul. Then I remembered way back when you replaced rings on that tired Tercel without braking the glaze on the cylinders. Worked out just fine and the other day when I was doing the oil consumption repair on the aluminum LS engine I saw outlined on the TSB to replace rings but do not hone cylinders if the top end cleaning and PCV updates did not work. I remember when I was in a EFI class a number of years ago the Toyota instructor explained Toyotas operating strategy for knock sensors. I would not have thought you could cheat it.
Hi Ivan, I tend to agree with stevestacey5793. The design engineers put two sensors on the engine for a reason. If they didn't think two were needed they could have saved the money buying sensors and installing them. I do understand why you did it that way but as steve says we don't know if it will pick up issues the same way as if there were two sensors.
I wonder if it's over engineered. I have a Mitubishi V6 which is turbocharged and only has one knock sensor (6A13TT motor). Of course, you never really know until you reverse engineer the code in the ECU. I know a guy who has literally done that, and some of the stuff in the factory code is never used!
@@KaldekBoch as an engineer myself I've learned that you have to understand the reasoning of a design. No manufacturer will simply add components without a reason. As for the code, you have to remember that it's used in more than one model or for more than one engine type. It's easier write new code, reuse existing code, modify existing code than start removing old code.
I'd wager if it's knocking on one bank, quite a bit of that will get picked up on the other bank. At over half a million miles, that's not something I'd be worried about, unless 5 year old gas from fuel cans is used regularly.
I usually do these for passing inspections to turn cel off. You can do the same with the knock sensors on the early Chevy v8s and the v6 Toyotas where the knock sensors are in the valley of the engine. Also for a 2 bank early Toyota with a 420 or 430 not both codes you can jump the signal on the rear o2 of the good bank to the bad bank to keep the cel from popping.
NTK and NGK (not spark plugs) recently have been letting me down. OEM or nothing at this point.....except a recent subaru MAP sensor that was over $300. AIP electronics on Amazon for $24 bucks is still going strong 5 months later
@@MrSleepProductionsInc same with their map sensors on my hemi jeep. Map, crank, cam, oil sender all seem to need to be OEM. On the flip it took three OEM ignition module to get one that works.
I just got a DOA NTK neutral safety switch this summer for a '99 Saturn SL2. Had to go to NAPA, and that one is still working. That is, until the timing chain jumped teeth, lol.
Yeah, I used to think NTK was a solid brand, but I got a bad NTK neutral safety switch for a '99 Saturn SL2 this summer! I was so mad! The one before that my buddy grabbed at Advance Auto since he was in a hurry, and that one lasted 30 days. This NTK one was DOA!! OE is NLA, so not many choices left out there. Grabbed one from NAPA and crossed my fingers, and that was the winner. Now it's on my lift with a bad timing chain tensioner or guides at 115k miles. Not one of GM's better brands, that's for sure, lol. Engine / trans is great, everything else on or around it is low bidder junk! LOVE the knock sensor fix on this one!! SWEEET!! 🤘
@Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics The way you work is "worth its weight in gold". I would say the same about the way you are honorable to your customers so that not everything has to cost your shirt when you want something done by a MAN who really knows his job :) Ps: And always with a smile -I love it. Edit = typo
Man ivean. These sensors have a 50%+ failure rate . I went through 4 in 2 months . They were good at time of install and bad within a week. Always the same thing low or high voltage on the wave form. We relocated the sensors to the heads .
Ivan, don't know what to say. In a quandary about your fix. I'm talking about the check engine light of course. There is probably a huge market out there for the burnt out one. I'd at least list it on Ebay. Ha! 🙃Thanks for Sharing! 🙂
Everyone wants their vehicle back ASAP when it’s in for repair. At best, this ‘repair’ should be temporary until parts come in to replace the defective sensor under warranty. Customer’s have a way of being happy with a temp fix or workaround until it breaks/doesn’t work/causes more damage. Then suddenly the customer flips sides and blames the mechanic/shop for not fixing it right in the first place.
My fav Toyota was a 1977 Celica GT with a 20R engine. It had maybe 400k miles when I sold it. At 28 years old Back then they didn’t have 100k digit so it could of been more miles . I personally saw it roll over twice. While I owned it . Great vid. Electrical issues are always a painful. Right now I am battling a brake light switch issue. It keeps on burning out . After a week.
That check engine light out reminds me of a customers car that had some cluster illumination bulbs not working as well as the check engine light bulb. The poor thing had been on for sooooo long it not only burnt out but the heat from the bulb distorted the socket and aperture it fits into. Your typical O2 heater circuit failure had set it and I was surprised they also allowed the change out of that sensor when told that was an additional problem.
2023 update: both banks are bad now. So will have to replace them with OEM + harness. Very much worth it
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awesome work around. there will always be people saying "i wouldn't of done that" just because they want to argue over it. However, I think 95% of them given the option of a $700 repair bill or whatever it would be parts + labor on a 500k+ van would take the work around no questions asked. Plus-- as many have stated-- knock sensors are rarely even coming into play the problems are usually pretty obvious when you are getting knocking and pinging and with one working sensor it would likely still pick up on it (unless the computer compares the two to see what is different on both banks). Regardless I think you're a legend for these videos and showing the work arounds.
But Ivan, isn't the amplitude of the signal affected by WHERE you are hitting the engine block?? I would expect the bank 1 signal to be must stronger than the bank 2 sensor if the knock is actually occurring on bank 1.
That happened with my 2002 Holden VY SS Commodore sedan (similar to the Pontiac GTO or Holden Monaro 2 door coupe) when a cheap Chinese Knock sensor (number 2) was giving me a P0332 code in early 2019,I replaced it with the Wells brand of knock sensor until I got a P0327 code (number 1 knock sensor)6 months later on the freeway at 110 km/h (66 mph). I thought - oh bugger iit,so I bought a brand new aftermarket wiring loom for the 5.7 litre Chevrolet LS1 V8 engine from an eBay seller in Hong Kong for $20 AUD including postage to Australia & I fitted a brand new Wells Knock sensor which is made in the U.S. I have had no more knock sensor problems since then but I had to remove the Inlet manifold twice to do the job & the engine has a heap more get up & go afterwards. So 2 rules I follow with the engine :- 1. Only use a reputable brand of knock sensor such as the Wells brand 2. Do not pressure clean or hose down any Gen 3 Chevrolet V8 engine where the knock sensors are fitted into the lifter valley because they can get drowned in water then rust & corrode if anyone does that !
I suspect the reason why you can't get a resistance from the knock sensor is it may be using a piezo electric ceramic/plated disk. The normal piezo will work both ways, speaker or mic. If you wanted to test pickup sensitivity, hack the volume pot on an old radio and connect the piezo knock sensor wires to it. (Or your scope) A small toffee hammer might be needed to make the sensor work lol :-D Yes i do think up some silly things :-D
Sir, here in the UK at least, you can buy a NOCK SIMULATOR, you place it next to the sensor or near it whatever and it pulses, it can be connected to a coil pack to ping a given cylinder. Got mine from dad many years ago, but a great bit of kit.
This was the pinnacle of quality from Toyota. They are suffering more and more as they caved to new car technology. There's no way my 2021 RAV4 will go 250k without major repairs, like the other 6 Toyotas I own from the mid 2000's
@@firstlast--- that's not a fair assessment as age also comes into play and a 2 year old car driven 225k is hardly the same as a 16 year old car. See me in 14 years and tell me Toyota made quality in 2020-2021
I'd like to add that doubling-up on the same sensor might result in the knock signal getting weaker because the signal is now going into two different circuits on the engine ECU and that might mean that there could be a higher rate of knock. It might not be a huge issue, just be aware that the engine could have a higher acceptance for knocking now. The NTK sensor could as well be made in the same production line as OEM sensors, just ending up in a different path of delivery and if the other sensor holds together then all is good.
@@Stoney3K That depends on the construction, but you usually avoid high impedance inputs in vehicle applications to avoid EMC issues from a lot of things. Ignition coils can induce some irritating stuff, so can mobile phones and communication radios. If you for some reason do need a high impedance input you'd use a shielded cable.
Wow, ntk supposed to be good for toyota motor. 551k miles??? Damn. That's very reliable engine! Didn't know you can put both channels on 1 sensor!! I figured it might cause a problem when it can detect the knock other part of the engine. Great fix, Ivan! That's cool fix on the wiper motor. Mine crapped out. Had to tear t to the vent part to get to it. 3 bolts, is out. Not to bad for 20 min fix. 15$ from junk yard lol. Awesome video!
This van is a good example of why cars built before GDI are so great. Cars being built lately seem to be disposable sat 100k miles. This GDI junk with no port injection to keep the valves clean drives me insane.
yes can't blame you for a workaround for now..NTK,NGK hmm don't scare me Ivan, i thought those would be ok as a replacement for OEM, i got 2 coils 6months back for our mitsubishi..guess time will tell.
Basically the knock sensor is likely either contains a capacitor and a magnet+coil or has a capacitor microphone config where it has a voltage on the incoming wire and the noise causes the voltage to vary due to varying capacitance, that's why it has infinite resistance. Basically the same way a capacitor microphone works in your video camera and phone. If you have a multimeter with a capacitor tester like the Fluke 325 then you can probably test the sensor with a multimeter. But you need to know what the good value is to know if it's good or bad.
great fix as usual. on the wiring harness to the wiper motor you should have kinked the cables down slightly so that any water on them drips off before it gets to the connection block. Also, I never touch the glass on any lamps, because certain chemicals on your skin can affect the glass shortening there working life. Keep up the Good work and regular posts.
Also called a "drip leg". A good practice for any application where water may run into an area where electrical wiring or modules are housed. I use it on the liquid tight electrical conduit from the disconnect to a piece of equipment.
@@topher8634 In the past , where the cable is too large I have created artificial drip legs by tying cotton string twice around and then trailing it to a convenient point.
Probably also a warranty claim with the knock sensor part maker, only 4 months old, most parts are 1 year? That is another positive feature with Toyota...you can walk into their parts department and order anything you want on the car...I had ordered nuts and bolts years back as some parts were stolen off of my '87 4 Runner and I wanted the OEM appearance vs. standard hardware store bolts that were zinc coated vs. the OEM that were coated with that brownish finish plus the shoulder washers on the nuts and bolts all one piece. Then, I needed some plastic parts and a few eletrical and like in this video, Toyota offered them. They weren't in stock with the dealership but two days later, the Toyota warehouse delivered them ! Thats darn impressive. BTW, I had a similar issue with an 89 GMC V1500 on the wiper park feature. In that design, they used a nylon cam and a metal arm that would "park" the wipers when turned off. That assembly was a seperate "module" that was attached by plastic ears and clips which were no longer offering spring tension. Had to order a complete motor assembly and used just that one little part for the existing motor and ta da.
Always use OEM sensors. I'm Polish, had to get snake bit several times before I learned. You'll learn! Customer paid you the first time to fix properly, should have gone to the kitchen and cook the crow you're about to eat. Fix it the right way.
I have given up on the replace both philosophy, if you cannot find a used original sensor and you cannot afford or get the proper oem one then just replace one...chances are the original will outlast it.
I am not excited about the repair Ivan. Essentially one bank will most likely not be adequately monitored for knock. I appreciate the test you did by hitting the block did show up on both sensors, however will engine knock on bank 1 be seen by the knock sensor on bank 2? AT best I see this as a temporary repair until you have the time to replace the knock sensors, Does the supplier of the NGK sensors contribute to replacing them? I thought they did in the USA. I know it most likely is a set rate and possibly falls short of what you would charge out, but it is better than nothing. Just my two bits of commentary. the wiper repair was good though.
Ivan sometimes things just turn to crap. Parts quality today does not exist and I feel it’s not going to get any better probably worse. Anyway nice problem solving. 😊
Please reconsider your repair. Given that the knock sensors listen for 'ping' and adjust spark timing and determins which cylinder needs attention, you may have corrupted the process for all 3 on bank 1. If I understand correctly, as the ECU knows the time/distance/amplitude of the combustion signals received by the sensor, multiplexing both banks signals must compromise ping management. Your face suggests you too aren't happy with the 'resolution' to a problem that was not of your making. The sensors were brand-name but sucked. That engine got to 551K with OEM knock sensors. Replace the sensors with OEMs. I'd bet the owner would front the part cost and perhaps some of your labor. Somehow I know you'd rest happier.
When I worked at Toyota when we got a knock sensor code on the 1mz or 3mz engine, we always replaced bolth sensors and the sub harness from main harness to knock sensors Edit: not saying it was totally "correct" or "the right way" but it seemed like if you touched it then it went bad later on
Basically knock sensors is pizzo crystal on vibration it generate a small oscillating signal in reverse it makes sound which is really high frequency.great work ivan
Ivan you should have pulled seat belt warning light while you were fixing the cluster then you wouldn’t have me warning you about not wearing a seat belt while driving! Again🤣🤣
I'm just wondering in the future, if the knock sensor fails can it be replaced and relocated to an accessible area and abandoned the original location? Just thinking... Save a lot of labor.
But how would you know if there's knocking on bank 1 then but that is a great idea to join them together for a few months or weeks or whatever and then replace them with all OEM parts
You are great, you fix that rubbish knocksensor Hum must bee junk I drive my car 91652,25 miles no problem , still runing And the funny its a french car From Sweden 🇸🇪
I preformed a similar repair on my son's RX300 (same engine) with 171k miles. Because the knock (bank one) sensor failed overdrive would not engage ; same code set. I tried the aftermarket sensors mounted on the valve cove to no avail. Final fix was to splice the remaining functional sensor with the wiring for the dead one. I did the splice inside the cabin under the dash. Has been working like a charm for 2 years. Others on You Tube comment that non-OEM sensors don't work. I would have to agree.
My 2000 Sienna has 572K and going strong! Thanks for the video!
Oh man this one better catch up soon!
Mine was the best car I ever owned. 2002 Went 303,000 before we donated it. I had a problem with the wiring harness to the knock sensor being eaten by a mouse and also around 250 k. had the same issue with my wiper motor, two of the male pins were totally corroded out. I ended up getting rid of the female connector, soldering all the wires to the buses inside the motor housing and epoxying the connector opening for water proofing, restored all the functionality of the wiper motor and delay function.
I had Volvo S60 with dead knock sensor. Engine started to knock when warm and loaded, but no codes ever. Knock sensors are under intake, so i did what you succesteg and it worked..
What year is your S60?
In the 80s and into the 90s I owned Mercedes automobiles and they were built like tanks. Then my wife and I had two 1998 models, an E-Class and a C-Class, and they were just junk compared to the ones we'd owned previously. So we got rid of them, and one of our purchases was a 2004 Toyota Highlander with the 3MZ-FE 3.3L V-6. It's now almost 19 years old with 400K on 'er and still going strong. Toyotas from that era were expensive, but worth every penny. I could walk away from the Highlander today and be satisfied, but it has years of life left.
Just to throw my 2 cents in. This is more for those people still learning about engine performance systems. But I've seen cases of false codes for knock sensors from a couple of other causes. For example, I've seen a couple of Honda's in my time, throwing both p0420 and the knock sensors codes. I've seen Catalytic converters that have gone bad and had one of the ceramic pucks break loose inside, and start making a popping/banging sound. And those vibrations have carried back through the exhaust into the engine block, causing the knock sensor to start picking up those extra vibrations, and throwing performance codes. Also on some of the Honda's that I've seen this, you will notice the Ignition timing will start to back off and retard, reducing performance noticeably. I've also seen straight exhaust leaks also cause false knock sensor codes. I guess anything that can knock or bang near the engine block can confuse the ECM. Just something to keep in mind in the future, to avoid firing the parts cannon.
This was technically a come-back. If the part installed goes bad, then it gets replaced if you have a warranty. The mileage/condition of the vehicle shouldn't matter. Unless you charge less for that condition as well initially (doubtful). That's why most mechanics charge what they do for labor hours and installations, it usually covers the occasional come-back repair over time.
I used to have a 2000 sienna and I had the same wiper problem. The middle pin corroded off, wonder if it is common. Sold the van to my neighbor with 495,000 miles and it now has 613,000 miles. Never have had any major issues. The 1mzfe is the best!
To be fair Ivan. I did knock sensors on a 2004 Toyota 4Runner a while back. Both sensors and the harness, all new OEM. Those sensors aren't cheap either. And one sensor failed in under 4k miles. This appears to be a known issue posted all over Toyota enthusiast forums. So, I wound up replacing the one bad sensor with a new Dorman unit and the MIL hasn't come back on for over 10k miles. I know, cheap aftermarket unit crap shoot. But thankfully, I got lucky.
A work around? You fitted the faulty sensor! You should foot the bill for replacing it!
I was hoping that linking the 2 wouldn't work. For me, that's a botched repair.
Be better to at least use the known good knock sensor from the last job. I know it takes time, but sometimes we need to suck it up and just do it.
That's a very good engine and transmission and car overall to make it that far with no huge problems these old Toyota's there just brilliant
Man I watched Ivan test driving with his seat belt off and just squirmed. Don't die mate, we need your expertise!
Thank god for you Safety Sallies out there protecting us from ourselves.
I haven't worn one in 49 years. He'll be ok.
@@SmittySmithsonite hey I ride a motorbike so I'm cool with risk. I like seatbelts though, they're a good risk management tradeoff.
I knew you were going to replace that bulb. Even though it hurt. Good mechanic. Bought a 2000 Sienna off of a church that had been sitting for ten years, 87k miles. Fuel pump was bad, needed tank work, replaced pump with one off eBay, looked good, wouldn’t start, pulled front bank injectors, cycled them with 12 volts till click was strong, put them back, engine started, ran rough, after 20 minutes all injectors started working. Runs great. Still have to address air conditioning (leak). Didn’t realize the longevity of these things
gotta love a Toyota, feed her oil, water and DENSO parts and shell go 500,00K more
nice work!
Great job, yeah it’s disappointing to see that check engine light out, but you did the right thing. Hope customer appreciates it.
If you supplied those NTK sensors, it's on you to fix it. Pull the intake and do it to oem spec if that was the case.
My thoughts exactly this seems like a way for him to turn out the light without having g to do the work. Lost a little respect on this repair
@@easyian01 😢
Good going! I'll bet future ECM generations will reject signals if they are identical on both channels! I've seen some tricky stuff like that in industrial applications/ Made it impossible to fool the computer!
Great job Ivan keep it up.
The decline of after market parts really accelerated when Covid got here and all the problems that it caused to the supply chain.
I been buying what I need at the local dealer when available if not the local junk yard a used OEM part is better that the alternative.
Absolutely on used OEM instead of aftermarket. Late model wrecks have very good parts.
Agree, anything electronic, get at the yard from something newer or fewer miles than yours.
Hope this works out OK, personally I'd be a little worried about splicing the sensors as you lose sensitivity to detect bank 1 knock events - the knock sensor positions are critical for getting an even representation of what is happening on each cylinder, across the full engine speed range and without interference from mechanical events like valve opening and closing etc - I can't help but wonder how different/attenuated the signal looks to the PCM when it is listening to bank 1 events 'remotely' via the bank 2 sensor (like listening to the TV from the room next door) I know it's not some super high performance high CR / turbo engine with a huge tendency to knock, but with high miles and probably some oil consumption I'd still be a bit concerned about potential knock damage at low speed / high load when driving up a hill in high ambient temps or something... Maybe I'm just too pessimistic 😁
Not too pessimistic at all Steve- Well said btw.
I don't think this was a choice -Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics- made. Not sure.
I would believe it is the customer who wants it done that way after the phone call as the car has gone pretty far in terms of what the value is of the car. "I believe"
The other sensor is sure to fail, and it makes sense to replace both with new Denso parts at that time.
@@torque7025 The question is if there's a warranty involved and who's warranty. If no warranty, then I can understand the customer's choice.
Bottom line, there's a reason Toyota engineers went with two sensors instead of one.
Come on Guys It's got a half Million miles. Customer agreed. End of question about integrity
Have to reach out an Thank you. You are a fair mechanic. Unlike places (dealerships) that go, "Duh, everythings gotta be changed, period! An yer getting charged for the diagnosis". They only thing they care about, is their own wallet. Doing this same thing for some dude, new to the area. You helped me with pin/wire I.D. I'll give him both options, he might just want to do the whole job? Don't know, we"ll see. Thanks again, good luck with your customers.
What ironic insanity! Tip of the hat to Mr Murphy and creativity.
That's a bummer! Can't even trust a good brand name part! That extra little problem of the money light took more time and work than the reason for the comeback. Great solution and all is good now 🙂
Great Vid! I love watching vehicles that have successfully lasted so long (High Mileage) and continue to run great! It's a testament to doing maintenance regularly! Love your work...always top notch! You continue to amaze! Even has the right bulb in his stock to fix the check engine light! You're the best!
You won't get this kind of mileage out of ANYTHING built in the last 15 model years, however. The newer it is, the less your chances are, regardless of how much maintenance you do.
Ivan, you are the man. I wish you live near me.
When you decided to tie knock sensor channels together I cried foul. Then I remembered way back when you replaced rings on that tired Tercel without braking the glaze on the cylinders. Worked out just fine and the other day when I was doing the oil consumption repair on the aluminum LS engine I saw outlined on the TSB to replace rings but do not hone cylinders if the top end cleaning and PCV updates did not work. I remember when I was in a EFI class a number of years ago the Toyota instructor explained Toyotas operating strategy for knock sensors. I would not have thought you could cheat it.
Over 500k the proof is in pudding of quality of a Toyota and Great maintenance.👍😎🤙
Hi Ivan, I tend to agree with stevestacey5793. The design engineers put two sensors on the engine for a reason. If they didn't think two were needed they could have saved the money buying sensors and installing them. I do understand why you did it that way but as steve says we don't know if it will pick up issues the same way as if there were two sensors.
I wonder if it's over engineered. I have a Mitubishi V6 which is turbocharged and only has one knock sensor (6A13TT motor). Of course, you never really know until you reverse engineer the code in the ECU. I know a guy who has literally done that, and some of the stuff in the factory code is never used!
@@KaldekBoch as an engineer myself I've learned that you have to understand the reasoning of a design. No manufacturer will simply add components without a reason.
As for the code, you have to remember that it's used in more than one model or for more than one engine type. It's easier write new code, reuse existing code, modify existing code than start removing old code.
The engineers also plan that the vehicle is going to be in the scrap yard long before 550k miles too.
@@bcad4066 True but the software lives on to go into new cars
I'd wager if it's knocking on one bank, quite a bit of that will get picked up on the other bank. At over half a million miles, that's not something I'd be worried about, unless 5 year old gas from fuel cans is used regularly.
I usually do these for passing inspections to turn cel off. You can do the same with the knock sensors on the early Chevy v8s and the v6 Toyotas where the knock sensors are in the valley of the engine. Also for a 2 bank early Toyota with a 420 or 430 not both codes you can jump the signal on the rear o2 of the good bank to the bad bank to keep the cel from popping.
NTK and NGK (not spark plugs) recently have been letting me down. OEM or nothing at this point.....except a recent subaru MAP sensor that was over $300. AIP electronics on Amazon for $24 bucks is still going strong 5 months later
Unscrupulous shops are removing those bulbs Ivan is installing them . Job security. Job security.
Nice work around.
Wow will have to be careful of NTK in future, not had any probs myself, however worth keeping in mind.
I’ve had problems with their crank sensors on Dodges.
@@MrSleepProductionsInc same with their map sensors on my hemi jeep. Map, crank, cam, oil sender all seem to need to be OEM. On the flip it took three OEM ignition module to get one that works.
I just got a DOA NTK neutral safety switch this summer for a '99 Saturn SL2. Had to go to NAPA, and that one is still working. That is, until the timing chain jumped teeth, lol.
Yeah, I used to think NTK was a solid brand, but I got a bad NTK neutral safety switch for a '99 Saturn SL2 this summer! I was so mad! The one before that my buddy grabbed at Advance Auto since he was in a hurry, and that one lasted 30 days. This NTK one was DOA!! OE is NLA, so not many choices left out there. Grabbed one from NAPA and crossed my fingers, and that was the winner. Now it's on my lift with a bad timing chain tensioner or guides at 115k miles. Not one of GM's better brands, that's for sure, lol. Engine / trans is great, everything else on or around it is low bidder junk! LOVE the knock sensor fix on this one!! SWEEET!! 🤘
Ivan, what to say. Great job man. Thanks
@Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics
The way you work is "worth its weight in gold". I would say the same about the way you are honorable to your customers so that not everything has to cost your shirt when you want something done by a MAN who really knows his job :)
Ps: And always with a smile -I love it.
Edit = typo
Man ivean. These sensors have a 50%+ failure rate . I went through 4 in 2 months . They were good at time of install and bad within a week. Always the same thing low or high voltage on the wave form. We relocated the sensors to the heads .
Not just no parts required for the knock sensor, but eliminating parts required. The high miles Toyota isn’t yet knock-knock knocking on heavens door.
Nox nox noxin'...
Ivan, don't know what to say. In a quandary about your fix. I'm talking about the check engine light of course. There is probably a huge market out there for the burnt out one. I'd at least list it on Ebay. Ha! 🙃Thanks for Sharing! 🙂
Good man on the wipers, and then... CEL failure... No good deed goes unpunished, Ivan! :D
You need to check out the check seatbelt switch it was flashing the whole time you were doing the test drive! I love your videos keep it up.
Y’all need to pay attention. He wasn’t wearing a seatbelt.
@@paulgilliland2992 Relax it's not a Mercedes AMG 🤣
Nice job Ivan 👍
way to go Ivan! used a lot of common sense and saved your customer a lot of $. love your videos
he didn't save the customer anything; this was a warranty job which he should have done properly
Everyone wants their vehicle back ASAP when it’s in for repair. At best, this ‘repair’ should be temporary until parts come in to replace the defective sensor under warranty. Customer’s have a way of being happy with a temp fix or workaround until it breaks/doesn’t work/causes more damage. Then suddenly the customer flips sides and blames the mechanic/shop for not fixing it right in the first place.
My fav Toyota was a 1977 Celica GT with a 20R engine. It had maybe 400k miles when I sold it. At 28 years old
Back then they didn’t have 100k digit so it could of been more miles . I personally saw it roll over twice. While I owned it .
Great vid. Electrical issues are always a painful. Right now I am battling a brake light switch issue. It keeps on burning out . After a week.
Just curious whether one of your go-to phrases is, " Give me a break!"? If so, that might explain this electrical issue you are experiencing.
That check engine light out reminds me of a customers car that had some cluster illumination bulbs not working as well as the check engine light bulb. The poor thing had been on for sooooo long it not only burnt out but the heat from the bulb distorted the socket and aperture it fits into. Your typical O2 heater circuit failure had set it and I was surprised they also allowed the change out of that sensor when told that was an additional problem.
You can also do this hack under passenger dash. Yes, it's temporary but works. Did it in the Rx300. Will replace with new Denso. Great recommendation
2023 update: both banks are bad now. So will have to replace them with OEM + harness. Very much worth it
awesome work around. there will always be people saying "i wouldn't of done that" just because they want to argue over it. However, I think 95% of them given the option of a $700 repair bill or whatever it would be parts + labor on a 500k+ van would take the work around no questions asked. Plus-- as many have stated-- knock sensors are rarely even coming into play the problems are usually pretty obvious when you are getting knocking and pinging and with one working sensor it would likely still pick up on it (unless the computer compares the two to see what is different on both banks). Regardless I think you're a legend for these videos and showing the work arounds.
But Ivan, isn't the amplitude of the signal affected by WHERE you are hitting the engine block?? I would expect the bank 1 signal to be must stronger than the bank 2 sensor if the knock is actually occurring on bank 1.
That happened with my 2002 Holden VY SS Commodore sedan (similar to the Pontiac GTO or Holden Monaro 2 door coupe) when a cheap Chinese Knock sensor (number 2) was giving me a P0332 code in early 2019,I replaced it with the Wells brand of knock sensor until I got a P0327 code (number 1 knock sensor)6 months later on the freeway at 110 km/h (66 mph).
I thought - oh bugger iit,so I bought a brand new aftermarket wiring loom for the 5.7 litre Chevrolet LS1 V8 engine from an eBay seller in Hong Kong for $20 AUD including postage to Australia & I fitted a brand new Wells Knock sensor which is made in the U.S.
I have had no more knock sensor problems since then but I had to remove the Inlet manifold twice to do the job & the engine has a heap more get up & go afterwards.
So 2 rules I follow with the engine :-
1. Only use a reputable brand of knock sensor such as the Wells brand
2. Do not pressure clean or hose down any Gen 3 Chevrolet V8 engine where the knock sensors are fitted into the lifter valley because they can get drowned in water then rust & corrode if anyone does that !
I suspect the reason why you can't get a resistance from the knock sensor is it may be using a piezo electric ceramic/plated disk.
The normal piezo will work both ways, speaker or mic.
If you wanted to test pickup sensitivity, hack the volume pot on an old radio and connect the piezo knock sensor wires to it. (Or your scope)
A small toffee hammer might be needed to make the sensor work lol :-D
Yes i do think up some silly things :-D
I tried this workaround on my ‘92 Acura Vigor once. Light came back on about 1 week later.
I like BMWs, they always come with two spare bulbs for the cluster. You can even test them by pressing the "park anywhere" button.
Sir, here in the UK at least, you can buy a NOCK SIMULATOR, you place it next to the sensor or near it whatever and it pulses, it can be connected to a coil pack to ping a given cylinder.
Got mine from dad many years ago, but a great bit of kit.
This was the pinnacle of quality from Toyota. They are suffering more and more as they caved to new car technology. There's no way my 2021 RAV4 will go 250k without major repairs, like the other 6 Toyotas I own from the mid 2000's
I have personally seen a 2020 Highlander with 225k miles on it. I wouldn't worry much about longevity as long as you take care of it
@@firstlast--- that's not a fair assessment as age also comes into play and a 2 year old car driven 225k is hardly the same as a 16 year old car. See me in 14 years and tell me Toyota made quality in 2020-2021
@@firstlast--- holy crap that's a lot of driving 😅
Every brand's quality has been in a nosedive the past 15 model years. They all just keep getting worse and worse ...
I'd like to add that doubling-up on the same sensor might result in the knock signal getting weaker because the signal is now going into two different circuits on the engine ECU and that might mean that there could be a higher rate of knock. It might not be a huge issue, just be aware that the engine could have a higher acceptance for knocking now.
The NTK sensor could as well be made in the same production line as OEM sensors, just ending up in a different path of delivery and if the other sensor holds together then all is good.
I expect the ECM input to be high-impedance, so the signal should not reduce by splitting it to two inputs.
@@Stoney3K That depends on the construction, but you usually avoid high impedance inputs in vehicle applications to avoid EMC issues from a lot of things. Ignition coils can induce some irritating stuff, so can mobile phones and communication radios.
If you for some reason do need a high impedance input you'd use a shielded cable.
Coffee, pancakes ,eggs, bacon, half million mile 1MZFE getting a PHAD massage. What a great morning! 👍👍
Ivan, those were some brilliant repairs. The Stealerships would have replaced the entire wiring harness and yanked the the Knock Sensors out.
Wow, ntk supposed to be good for toyota motor. 551k miles??? Damn. That's very reliable engine! Didn't know you can put both channels on 1 sensor!! I figured it might cause a problem when it can detect the knock other part of the engine. Great fix, Ivan! That's cool fix on the wiper motor. Mine crapped out. Had to tear t to the vent part to get to it. 3 bolts, is out. Not to bad for 20 min fix. 15$ from junk yard lol. Awesome video!
A great video as always .Thanks .Keep them coming..
This van is a good example of why cars built before GDI are so great. Cars being built lately seem to be disposable sat 100k miles. This GDI junk with no port injection to keep the valves clean drives me insane.
yes can't blame you for a workaround for now..NTK,NGK hmm don't scare me Ivan, i thought those would be ok as a replacement for OEM, i got 2 coils 6months back for our mitsubishi..guess time will tell.
Well it should be good for another 500k now just like new great work buddy....Thanks and take care....
Basically the knock sensor is likely either contains a capacitor and a magnet+coil or has a capacitor microphone config where it has a voltage on the incoming wire and the noise causes the voltage to vary due to varying capacitance, that's why it has infinite resistance. Basically the same way a capacitor microphone works in your video camera and phone.
If you have a multimeter with a capacitor tester like the Fluke 325 then you can probably test the sensor with a multimeter. But you need to know what the good value is to know if it's good or bad.
Knock sensors are piezoelectric hence near infinite resistor
great fix as usual. on the wiring harness to the wiper motor you should have kinked the cables down slightly so that any water on them drips off before it gets to the connection block. Also, I never touch the glass on any lamps, because certain chemicals on your skin can affect the glass shortening there working life. Keep up the Good work and regular posts.
Also called a "drip leg". A good practice for any application where water may run into an area where electrical wiring or modules are housed. I use it on the liquid tight electrical conduit from the disconnect to a piece of equipment.
@@topher8634 In the past , where the cable is too large I have created artificial drip legs by tying cotton string twice around and then trailing it to a convenient point.
@@russancliff1815 a great tip. Essentially a "wick" to divert the water.
Probably also a warranty claim with the knock sensor part maker, only 4 months old, most parts are 1 year? That is another positive feature with Toyota...you can walk into their parts department and order anything you want on the car...I had ordered nuts and bolts years back as some parts were stolen off of my '87 4 Runner and I wanted the OEM appearance vs. standard hardware store bolts that were zinc coated vs. the OEM that were coated with that brownish finish plus the shoulder washers on the nuts and bolts all one piece. Then, I needed some plastic parts and a few eletrical and like in this video, Toyota offered them. They weren't in stock with the dealership but two days later, the Toyota warehouse delivered them ! Thats darn impressive. BTW, I had a similar issue with an 89 GMC V1500 on the wiper park feature. In that design, they used a nylon cam and a metal arm that would "park" the wipers when turned off. That assembly was a seperate "module" that was attached by plastic ears and clips which were no longer offering spring tension. Had to order a complete motor assembly and used just that one little part for the existing motor and ta da.
I have joined the two knock sensors together on a 2001 lexus rx300.
Always use OEM sensors. I'm Polish, had to get snake bit several times before I learned. You'll learn! Customer paid you the first time to fix properly, should have gone to the kitchen and cook the crow you're about to eat. Fix it the right way.
I have given up on the replace both philosophy, if you cannot find a used original sensor and you cannot afford or get the proper oem one then just replace one...chances are the original will outlast it.
Had to laugh when you said let’s go around the block and in the back ground is a huge field where you live the blocks are as far as the eyes can see.
Yeah about 10 miles 😂
Scotty Kilmer would be proud of that repair.
way to go again Ivan.
13:00 I wonder if water is intruding from the wire side?
Given the age and mileage of that van, I can see going that route
Yeah, it'll be fine.
I am not excited about the repair Ivan. Essentially one bank will most likely not be adequately monitored for knock. I appreciate the test you did by hitting the block did show up on both sensors, however will engine knock on bank 1 be seen by the knock sensor on bank 2? AT best I see this as a temporary repair until you have the time to replace the knock sensors, Does the supplier of the NGK sensors contribute to replacing them? I thought they did in the USA. I know it most likely is a set rate and possibly falls short of what you would charge out, but it is better than nothing. Just my two bits of commentary. the wiper repair was good though.
Ivan stated that he explained the options to the customer. The final decision is up to the customer - the one paying for the work.
@@davidquinn6161 it's a freebie, hence why Ivan doesn't want to spend much time on it because he's effectively footing the bill.
I would've tapped on Bank 1 to see if it turned on the Check Engine light.
He said " I wouldn't charge for this repair ( meaning the work around ). Implying that he would have charged for replacing the actual knock sensors.
Duh!! Look again at the mileage, owner put 20k on in 4 months. This thing will get a new engine before getting new knock sensors.
Great video as always!
This van deserves 1 million miles.
You are the best
I guess you could say, Ivan, got "Cluster Effed" by a damπ light bulb.
Scotty is right again.
He’s far from right on a lot of things though.
Ivan sometimes things just turn to crap. Parts quality today does not exist and I feel it’s not going to get any better probably worse. Anyway nice problem solving. 😊
You have adopted a Sienna!
I wonder if this Toyota will keep running until the wheels fall off. Nice work.
I see almost as many rockauto boxes and magnets as I have. Lol
What you could of done with the knock sensor is to put a capacitor say10 mfd in parallel with the sensor to reduce the peaks slightly .
A genius fix
hopefully the customer gives you a nice tip.. where were the knock sensors actually bought?
Hey Ivan. I hope all is well with you and the family. Toyotas are amazing. Just ask Scotty! Happy Holidays!
Please reconsider your repair. Given that the knock sensors listen for 'ping' and adjust spark timing and determins which cylinder needs attention, you may have corrupted the process for all 3 on bank 1. If I understand correctly, as the ECU knows the time/distance/amplitude of the combustion signals received by the sensor, multiplexing both banks signals must compromise ping management.
Your face suggests you too aren't happy with the 'resolution' to a problem that was not of your making. The sensors were brand-name but sucked. That engine got to 551K with OEM knock sensors. Replace the sensors with OEMs. I'd bet the owner would front the part cost and perhaps some of your labor.
Somehow I know you'd rest happier.
This was back when Toyota was at its best. The newer stuff isn’t quite this good.
I have done that on chevy 1500 oxygen sensors before. I have a hard time believing 550k miles on orginal engine.
When I worked at Toyota when we got a knock sensor code on the 1mz or 3mz engine, we always replaced bolth sensors and the sub harness from main harness to knock sensors
Edit: not saying it was totally "correct" or "the right way" but it seemed like if you touched it then it went bad later on
i service a fleet of ram 2500 trucks with the Hemi they just sold one with 620,000 new owner drives every day
that little spider running at 13:20 LMAO
Basically knock sensors is pizzo crystal on vibration it generate a small oscillating signal in reverse it makes sound which is really high frequency.great work ivan
Ivan you should have pulled seat belt warning light while you were fixing the cluster then you wouldn’t have me warning you about not wearing a seat belt while driving! Again🤣🤣
If I was the owner I would be praying for a comeback 😅
I'm just wondering in the future, if the knock sensor fails can it be replaced and relocated to an accessible area and abandoned the original location? Just thinking... Save a lot of labor.
But how would you know if there's knocking on bank 1 then but that is a great idea to join them together for a few months or weeks or whatever and then replace them with all OEM parts
You are great, you fix that rubbish knocksensor
Hum must bee junk
I drive my car 91652,25 miles no problem , still runing
And the funny its a french car
From Sweden 🇸🇪
With 500,000 miles I would have done the same thing.