Thank you! This is awesome! What do you think will change with Nadu ban? Do you think this will still be the best Titan line from now on? And do you also think TOR will be banned? I really appreciate your Titan content. From one fellow Titan brother to another, cheers!
In my honest opinion, I don't really think too much will change with the Nadu ban unless something else gets banned/unbanned. Titan was already on lots of Dismember before Nadu thanks to Magus, Monkey, Yawgmoth, and now Tamiyo. We also used to play Force of Vigor and it came back because you can Force their Shukos/Sagas, but that's hardly new. I think it'll be interesting to see if the Analyst package stays, if people keep experimenting with Rumble, or if we revert back to the "normal" list, but with Hanweir/Mirrorpool/Oran. As for The One Ring, I would be pretty surprised to see it banned. I don't think a ban would be unwarranted, but it doesn't feel to me like TOR is too far outside the power level of what's allowed in Modern. As for whether or not the Analyst build is better, I honestly can't say. I just started to see these builds pop up and wanted to at least explain how the kill goes, since the line isn't super obvious. I don't actually know why Analyst is included in the deck, just that this kill is available to the build.
@@redfacedmenace thank you for the analysis! I will continue to follow you for updates on this and other strategies, and to improve my games. Thanks again, you are the best!
@@redfacedmenace the deck already had access to an easier to accomplish win with infinite damage with Worldsoul's Rage, Mirrorpool, and Gruul Turf w/ 2 amulet's and doesn't need a titan either. I would think that package is much smaller and easier to accomodate especially since worldsoul's rage can be used to ramp and recur lands from grave
Analyst is a Pact target tho. The WSR combo is unreliable because you have to draw the WSR and it’s easily interacted with via counterspells. If your opponent counters your Analyst, you can simply copy it with Shifting Woodland and win anyways.
ill be honest I can only keep up with some of it. This is definitely way more then adding -1/-1 counter to an undying creatures. But i think that partly why i find this interesting.
I have a way to make ~infinite titans that it was easier. Amulet + springheart nantuko + bounce land makes infinite of pretty much any good creature in your deck. It goes totally infinite with grazer and dryad cause you can keep replaying the bounce land. With titan, you can only go as wide as you have lands in your deck, but that will most likely win you the game on the spot.
That is very true! However, that requires a 2-card setup (creature + Springheart Nantuko). The Analyst package allows you to make infinite titans simply from resolving a single Titan with 2 amulets in play, which is an extremely common scenario (far more common than having the creature + Nantuko setup). It’s worth noting that for the Analyst line you simply need to arrange for 2 Amulets (which the deck is literally built specifically to do with 4 Amulets, 4 Sagas, and 2ish Mycosynths). For the Nantuko combo you need an Amulet, a Bounceland, a creature to copy, the Nantuko itself, 2 extra mana to bestow, and a floating land drop. It’s actually kindof difficult to arrange all of that. Especially simultaneously having 2 extra mana and also still having a land drop remaining. Not to mention that it plays into removal spells. Though the Nantuko combo is easier to understand, it’s much less practical than the Analyst combo line. The Analyst combo is easier to assemble, yet highly complex in terms of execution. That being said, it is essentially a memorizable algorithm that is relatively easy to execute when you have it memorized or have done it so much it becomes muscle memory.
I sticked with the classic mirrorpool+hanweir package. This seems messy and confusing to do irl... it's interesting but it feels over the top 😅. But I appreciate you explaining this new line. Thank you!
It's actually come up relevant in my testing. Getting to kill at upkeep around the ring is huge. Also since you're a graveyard combo now, you can still combo around removal as long as you have the first woodland.
I would like to change my view on this hahaha. I've also did some testing and reading on the amulet discord. Brought it up in a recent tourney and did surprisingly well. It gives us another angle of attack and makes the deck kind of more flexible and resilient with our options. The analyst combo is here to stay 😄.
I love this! So convoluted but so cool! I just switched to hanweir, oran-rief, mirrorpool package since I was convinced that slayer’s stronghold and sunhome would always be best. Now I think that they suck compared to mirrorpool. I’m not sure I’ll switch to this version but that was extremely impressive nonetheless
Yes! I'm glad it's more accessible to people why the Hanweir/Mirrorpool/Oran lists are better. I'm quite proud of that video. :) As for this one, I don't yet know the advantages and disadvantages, but I've seen this come up in lists and confuse many people so I figured I'd explain it.
Yeah I'm all for spicy titan brewing but these graveyard interactions make my brain hurt too. Debating testing it, but also might just wait till the ban.
@@foxlery It's starting to feel like it doesn't really matter what you play in order to win in Amulet. I mean, sure, infinite is a lot (the most, actually), but is it really worth the changes in deck construction and being reliant on the graveyard?
@@redfacedmenace I don't think the T2 combo that you are featuring here is the point behind the changes, it's not necessarily better or worse for T2, just different. The arguments are for grindy games or for the combo to have less opportunities for interaction. The line you show here is equally weak to removal when you go to copy titan, and it's weaker to not having lands to pay pact and graveyard reliance. For most lists in the board state you show in the video you can still go for the same original Hanweir/Mirrorpool/Oran line without having to pact for an analyst, so the deck isn't entirely reliant on the graveyard. I think the lines where you go analyst first to churn through deck and then find dryad/titan/whatever are what are more interesting. They're also a lot more variable because of what you mill off analyst/rumble/surveil land. Those are what have me thinking pros/cons wise. P.S. Damn this message ended up long, whoops.
I’ve seen lists with as few as 1 Analyst as a Pact target and as many as 3 to draw naturally as often as possible, so it just depends whether you view Analyst as a backdoor combo or an integral part of the deck. Lotus field you definitely play at least 2 but 3 is respectable if you find yourself wanting to draw it more often.
Thank you for explaining! Have a quick question. Someone told me when you use aftermath analyst ability and you have a echoing deeps in your GY you can still copy if of the lands in your GY. Is that true?
Yeah i've seen something like this before, last week I saw that aftermath analyst became popular suddently in mtg goldfish, then i went to twitter triyin to fins out how the fuck were you supposed to win, cause the list I saw had no oran rief, no kessig, no stronghold sunhome... So i just grabbed a couple o proxies ans tried the list, and I found out there was a infinite with shiftikg woodlands mirrorpool and aftermath analyst. Pretty cool the fact you can play echoing deeps. To be honest, I like the list, but the combo lines is sometimes clanky as far as you have to cast multiple analyst sometimes in order to get all your titans with haste, anyways pretty cool. Pd, you don't know how I broke my head in order to get the way to win, this video would have helped me so much. But it was cool to find out my own way i guess.
When you bring everything back with Analyst, you can actually use Deeps to copy Lotus field (idk why, it’s some weird rules thing). So you can technically use 1 lotus and Deeps to go infinite, but it only produces exactly the 8 mana required to use Woodland to copy the Analyst and crack it (not true if one of your recur lands is a Vestige or bounceland that you milled or had in play already), so to reliably get infinite mana/hastes/transmutes you really want the 2nd Lotus Field in the loop. However, if you have a land with etb effect like Radiant fountain, the deserts that ping for 1 damage, or even a surveil land you can get infinite triggers and go from there, even if you aren’t making mana or doing something else.
@@redfacedmenace Really? You can copy lands that are entering at the same time? I see, I would suppose it is because echoing deeps copy "as enter" and not "when" so lands are still considered in the graveyard. I am no judge so It's just a guess 😀. Thank you for your response anyway.
@@ArtemiiPysarenko I presume it is the same reason why MH3 Ulamog can see itself in exile for the +1/+1 counter effect. Dave from JudgingFTW has a video on that interaction.
You can play a pingland over the Valakut and cut Dryad entirely if you like. You can also play a surveil land and mill your whole deck too. Online, the Dryad route leads to wins much faster, but in paper the pingland might be the go-to, especially if you don't want to play Dryad.
It wins through any number of blockers and with the opp at any life total, unlike other double amulet kill lines. Otherwise, I'd have to ask the experts. I haven't personally played this build, myself, at all.
The answer I found looking around is that these graveyard versions are more resilient to removal, grain of salt here though since I have not played this version either. Jeskai control is extremely popular online and they have wrath of the skies, solitude, subtlety, and a bunch of counters. Shifting woodlands and a filled graveyard enables lines that many of these cards can't interact with particularly well. The main counter argument against the deck is that now you're opening yourself up to graveyard hate, but you still can just go for the previous style play patterns, since those lines have not been removed just altered a bit. Some lists will run explore/spelunking in board that way if you're worried about graveyard hate you can board out of the graveyard plan.
Thank you! This is awesome! What do you think will change with Nadu ban? Do you think this will still be the best Titan line from now on? And do you also think TOR will be banned? I really appreciate your Titan content. From one fellow Titan brother to another, cheers!
In my honest opinion, I don't really think too much will change with the Nadu ban unless something else gets banned/unbanned. Titan was already on lots of Dismember before Nadu thanks to Magus, Monkey, Yawgmoth, and now Tamiyo. We also used to play Force of Vigor and it came back because you can Force their Shukos/Sagas, but that's hardly new. I think it'll be interesting to see if the Analyst package stays, if people keep experimenting with Rumble, or if we revert back to the "normal" list, but with Hanweir/Mirrorpool/Oran.
As for The One Ring, I would be pretty surprised to see it banned. I don't think a ban would be unwarranted, but it doesn't feel to me like TOR is too far outside the power level of what's allowed in Modern.
As for whether or not the Analyst build is better, I honestly can't say. I just started to see these builds pop up and wanted to at least explain how the kill goes, since the line isn't super obvious. I don't actually know why Analyst is included in the deck, just that this kill is available to the build.
@@redfacedmenace thank you for the analysis! I will continue to follow you for updates on this and other strategies, and to improve my games. Thanks again, you are the best!
@rolanddeschain1994 glad my videos are helpful :)
@@redfacedmenace the deck already had access to an easier to accomplish win with infinite damage with Worldsoul's Rage, Mirrorpool, and Gruul Turf w/ 2 amulet's and doesn't need a titan either. I would think that package is much smaller and easier to accomodate especially since worldsoul's rage can be used to ramp and recur lands from grave
Analyst is a Pact target tho. The WSR combo is unreliable because you have to draw the WSR and it’s easily interacted with via counterspells. If your opponent counters your Analyst, you can simply copy it with Shifting Woodland and win anyways.
Please pretend there is no Explore in the graveyard! It is not necessary for the combo, I just used it to cast Titan.
ill be honest I can only keep up with some of it. This is definitely way more then adding -1/-1 counter to an undying creatures. But i think that partly why i find this interesting.
Amulet Titan is the rubik's cube of Magic: the Gathering.
You deserve a ton of credit for such a amazing video. I wish I could thumbs this up more than once!
Just make a 2nd account and like it with that one! :P
Boshnroll brought me here
Glad to have you :)
I have a way to make ~infinite titans that it was easier.
Amulet + springheart nantuko + bounce land makes infinite of pretty much any good creature in your deck. It goes totally infinite with grazer and dryad cause you can keep replaying the bounce land.
With titan, you can only go as wide as you have lands in your deck, but that will most likely win you the game on the spot.
That is very true! However, that requires a 2-card setup (creature + Springheart Nantuko).
The Analyst package allows you to make infinite titans simply from resolving a single Titan with 2 amulets in play, which is an extremely common scenario (far more common than having the creature + Nantuko setup).
It’s worth noting that for the Analyst line you simply need to arrange for 2 Amulets (which the deck is literally built specifically to do with 4 Amulets, 4 Sagas, and 2ish Mycosynths). For the Nantuko combo you need an Amulet, a Bounceland, a creature to copy, the Nantuko itself, 2 extra mana to bestow, and a floating land drop. It’s actually kindof difficult to arrange all of that. Especially simultaneously having 2 extra mana and also still having a land drop remaining. Not to mention that it plays into removal spells.
Though the Nantuko combo is easier to understand, it’s much less practical than the Analyst combo line. The Analyst combo is easier to assemble, yet highly complex in terms of execution. That being said, it is essentially a memorizable algorithm that is relatively easy to execute when you have it memorized or have done it so much it becomes muscle memory.
I sticked with the classic mirrorpool+hanweir package. This seems messy and confusing to do irl... it's interesting but it feels over the top 😅. But I appreciate you explaining this new line. Thank you!
Fair enough! :) I'm not yet totally sure of the benefits of this build, but at least now you know a little bit!
It's actually come up relevant in my testing. Getting to kill at upkeep around the ring is huge. Also since you're a graveyard combo now, you can still combo around removal as long as you have the first woodland.
I would like to change my view on this hahaha. I've also did some testing and reading on the amulet discord. Brought it up in a recent tourney and did surprisingly well. It gives us another angle of attack and makes the deck kind of more flexible and resilient with our options. The analyst combo is here to stay 😄.
@@forpeanutjelly4323 yup. I’m currently on 2 aftermath analyst, 2 lotus fields. Not quite playing the no-dryad list that house of mana is playing
I love this! So convoluted but so cool! I just switched to hanweir, oran-rief, mirrorpool package since I was convinced that slayer’s stronghold and sunhome would always be best. Now I think that they suck compared to mirrorpool. I’m not sure I’ll switch to this version but that was extremely impressive nonetheless
Yes! I'm glad it's more accessible to people why the Hanweir/Mirrorpool/Oran lists are better. I'm quite proud of that video. :)
As for this one, I don't yet know the advantages and disadvantages, but I've seen this come up in lists and confuse many people so I figured I'd explain it.
thanks for the content, now we're waiting for the video of some matches. You are always the best!
I've got a legacy vid cooking, but I'll definitely be back on Modern when I can get to it
This has finally fried my brain.
RIP Torremond, you will be missed
Yeah I'm all for spicy titan brewing but these graveyard interactions make my brain hurt too. Debating testing it, but also might just wait till the ban.
@@foxlery It's starting to feel like it doesn't really matter what you play in order to win in Amulet. I mean, sure, infinite is a lot (the most, actually), but is it really worth the changes in deck construction and being reliant on the graveyard?
@@redfacedmenace I don't think the T2 combo that you are featuring here is the point behind the changes, it's not necessarily better or worse for T2, just different. The arguments are for grindy games or for the combo to have less opportunities for interaction.
The line you show here is equally weak to removal when you go to copy titan, and it's weaker to not having lands to pay pact and graveyard reliance. For most lists in the board state you show in the video you can still go for the same original Hanweir/Mirrorpool/Oran line without having to pact for an analyst, so the deck isn't entirely reliant on the graveyard.
I think the lines where you go analyst first to churn through deck and then find dryad/titan/whatever are what are more interesting. They're also a lot more variable because of what you mill off analyst/rumble/surveil land. Those are what have me thinking pros/cons wise.
P.S. Damn this message ended up long, whoops.
How many aftermath are you running? I guess only 2 lotus fields right? Have a list you could share?
Best!
Alex
I’ve seen lists with as few as 1 Analyst as a Pact target and as many as 3 to draw naturally as often as possible, so it just depends whether you view Analyst as a backdoor combo or an integral part of the deck. Lotus field you definitely play at least 2 but 3 is respectable if you find yourself wanting to draw it more often.
As for a list, I would look at something like this: twitter.com/HouseOfManaMTG/status/1829638857882833067
This is super helpful. Thanks!
Now you're ready to ball
Thank you for explaining! Have a quick question. Someone told me when you use aftermath analyst ability and you have a echoing deeps in your GY you can still copy if of the lands in your GY. Is that true?
You know, I'm not actually sure. Let me look into it and update it once I do know.
Yeah i've seen something like this before, last week I saw that aftermath analyst became popular suddently in mtg goldfish, then i went to twitter triyin to fins out how the fuck were you supposed to win, cause the list I saw had no oran rief, no kessig, no stronghold sunhome...
So i just grabbed a couple o proxies ans tried the list, and I found out there was a infinite with shiftikg woodlands mirrorpool and aftermath analyst.
Pretty cool the fact you can play echoing deeps. To be honest, I like the list, but the combo lines is sometimes clanky as far as you have to cast multiple analyst sometimes in order to get all your titans with haste, anyways pretty cool.
Pd, you don't know how I broke my head in order to get the way to win, this video would have helped me so much. But it was cool to find out my own way i guess.
Well I'm sorry I was too late for you to benefit, but hopefully this is helpful to everyone regardless!
Valakut and dryad are "usless" you can haste all titan too and attack with infinite titan.... Wow nice line
Dryad/Valakut lets you win on your opponent's upkeep if they have Ring protection!
Hey, can you do this loop only using one lotus field?
Thanks for the video
When you bring everything back with Analyst, you can actually use Deeps to copy Lotus field (idk why, it’s some weird rules thing). So you can technically use 1 lotus and Deeps to go infinite, but it only produces exactly the 8 mana required to use Woodland to copy the Analyst and crack it (not true if one of your recur lands is a Vestige or bounceland that you milled or had in play already), so to reliably get infinite mana/hastes/transmutes you really want the 2nd Lotus Field in the loop. However, if you have a land with etb effect like Radiant fountain, the deserts that ping for 1 damage, or even a surveil land you can get infinite triggers and go from there, even if you aren’t making mana or doing something else.
@@redfacedmenace Really? You can copy lands that are entering at the same time? I see, I would suppose it is because echoing deeps copy "as enter" and not "when" so lands are still considered in the graveyard. I am no judge so It's just a guess 😀. Thank you for your response anyway.
@@ArtemiiPysarenko I presume it is the same reason why MH3 Ulamog can see itself in exile for the +1/+1 counter effect. Dave from JudgingFTW has a video on that interaction.
Isnt it better to run a 1of pingland and you can just combo kill with 1 amulet and 2 lotus or 2 amulets 1 lotus
You can play a pingland over the Valakut and cut Dryad entirely if you like. You can also play a surveil land and mill your whole deck too.
Online, the Dryad route leads to wins much faster, but in paper the pingland might be the go-to, especially if you don't want to play Dryad.
@@redfacedmenace I've seen decks that change the line mid game to switch up the play pattern
Why is this better?
It wins through any number of blockers and with the opp at any life total, unlike other double amulet kill lines. Otherwise, I'd have to ask the experts. I haven't personally played this build, myself, at all.
The answer I found looking around is that these graveyard versions are more resilient to removal, grain of salt here though since I have not played this version either. Jeskai control is extremely popular online and they have wrath of the skies, solitude, subtlety, and a bunch of counters. Shifting woodlands and a filled graveyard enables lines that many of these cards can't interact with particularly well.
The main counter argument against the deck is that now you're opening yourself up to graveyard hate, but you still can just go for the previous style play patterns, since those lines have not been removed just altered a bit. Some lists will run explore/spelunking in board that way if you're worried about graveyard hate you can board out of the graveyard plan.