They destroyed this Campaign in 1 day...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ม.ค. 2023
- You should watch me live: / wirtual
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#Wirtual #Trackmania #campaign - เกม
i just want to clarify that skip on 6 was completely accidental and i cannot repeat that skip to save my life.
but other people can and thats what matters. Remind me of when that streamer was casually playing metal gear solid and fell thru a wall creating a giant timesave. Boba? or something was her name.
Pretty cool to accidently find a skip that the top players will use forever
@@m1LKbagzz yea the Boba Skip to glitch thru a locked door. huge breakthru for speedrunners found by a casual player lol
@@bluewuppo I use to watch a lot of yogscast and i think shes a newer member so thats why I heard of it
btw despite all of Wirt's copium on your start you were still ahead of his PB in the final straight :P
@@m1LKbagzz didn't something like this happened in TM too? Some new player smashed record on some ice map while he had no idea what he was doing?
8:33 No coincidence that one of the books is How To by Randall Munroe... which is about using ridiculously over-engineered "solutions" to solve everyday problems.
Wooow, very satisfying find!!
So a German guy... Maybe an engineering student did this..
Sometimes clichés aren't that wrong.
It's actually 3 books by Randall Munroe. "How to" and "What if? 2" are visible in the picture, but the first "What if" is offscreen as well.
They just happened to all be kind of the right height, I didn't really think about the coincidence at the time :D
@@guyyst As a fellow German Randall Munroe fan, I certainly appreciate this outcome. Good job putting everything together like that, both figuratively and literally!
Came here to say that, brilliant!
0:39 dude literally recreated Le Mans 1955 and killed 9 spectators to gain 0.2 seconds 💀💀💀
That was the last thing I expected to see referenced; but big ups for the fellow racing historian.
Pierre Levegh type cut
some of these maps are practically designed to kill spectators, like the one where there’s an icy slope up to the finish line and stands *directly* behind it.
I'm sorry 😢
I lost it when the guy in chat called it the "genocide cut"
that guy did the troll map as intended. it wasn't called "deterministic" for nothing
that guy is f@cking genius
this guy is based.
press forwardish map
yep, troll map requires troll strat xd
The reason I wouldn’t consider it cheating is due to the number of maps this would work on be negligible. He got one map he could do this on.
Its not like a hotkey that can be turned on and off, if he so much as touched that controller he is screwed
I love it when running over the crowd is mandatory for a record
TAS: Textbook assisted speedrun
Studying for finals:
The book isn't the same as notches because you can't just put a book on your controller mid-run
Well you can, but it'll be hard to do it accurate every time unless you've got some kind of a rig to setup for it, which opens entirely different can of worms
have 7 different controllers and 7 different books, each set to different angles. Then whenever you need a specific angle, plug in that controller
Not with that attitude.
@@Glennjamyyyn better yet, set up some sort of switcher with buttons to select the controller you want to swap to
@@Dood_ "it'll be hard to do" ... thereby making it skill based, thereby making it not cheating. thanks
Kobra performing the shortcut:
“Some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I am willing to make”
LOL guyyst and quba are both legends in the TF2 rocket jumping community, it's hilarious to see them at the same time in Trackmania pulling a stunt like this
It'd be the must ironic thing that they got rid of the custom action keys to make it fair for controllers, than controllers start using notches' to make their own custom action keys.
Getting rid of custom action keys was a shit decision anyway. They literally banned a feature that removed a hard, technical disadvantage for keyboard players, because it created a skill-based disadvantage for controller players.
i dont would argue like this. in every game input device A is better than input device B. for example rocket league, if you play with controller you have the advantage to move pricise in the air and also to look arround on the field where other players are. keyboard players can not turn the camera arround in rocket league. and rocket league is 100 times more compettetive than trackmania
@@colymoli4311 I'm actually a RL player and just watch Trackmania content so I honestly don't know the depth of the Trackmania controller differences. I just remember getting rid of custom action keys was a big deal in the community and the reason was for fairness. So the irony to me is funny.
I'm like you, everyone has a choice on how they play, debating is pointless. Everyone has access to both play styles, so changing games for fairness, especially to the degree Trackmania did, isn't a good idea imo.
@@colymoli4311 you can turn the camera with keyboard to every 90 degree angle but you can't freely move it about
@@trisboii Did they remove mouse camera control from the game what?
That book strat isn’t cheating. It’s working smarter, not harder! 😂
So is any tas
book smarts🤔
So wirtual's custom ak is not cheating as well
@@valest9290 Yeah, that's my thought too. If turning at 34% using an analog keyboard has been explicitly banned, I don't see how using a notch (or the book in this case) isn't cheating. IIRC the consistency and repeatability of the 34% action key compared to controllers was explicitly used as reasoning too, so if you can get that perfect consistency with a controller mod then it's just as bad IMO.
I feel like on this specific map it's fine and hilarious but in general would be in bad taste if nothing else
In Melee, it's well agreed upon that notches aren't cheating, as they're fairly accessible and barely give a bad player an advantage so strong they will beat someone better than them. However in a deterministic game like TM, I'd imagine it could have different implications as you could gain serious advantages over keyboard players and even cheese maps with super specific percents
Notches won't really matter for TrackMania unless a map can be beaten by holding the steering wheel down in one direction for all of it as shown above. The moment you have to drive for 2 seconds before turning your car, you're introducing a timing variable into the equation and the notch loses almost all of its value.
That said, there's always going to be an arms race in hardware:
Faster, more stable internet connections
Bigger, wider screens with faster response times and wider FoV
More capable GPU's and CPU's enabling longer render distances and higher resolution
Keyboards and mice with built-in macro functionality which can bypass game settings
Notches, grips and button extensions for controllers
Every single one can be argued to provide an unfair advantage. Ultimately I think it's up to the game developers and tournament organizers to define what they consider to be cheating, otherwise the community could literally argue itself to pieces over the fact that they aren't all playing with the exact same hardware, settings and internet.
Its not well agreed upon. A top player posted about wanted them banned literally yesterday.
@@squeakyevil4 the vast majority of people have no issue with them, the main issues people talk about now are Phobs and Boxxes. Pretty much every top player uses notches because Melee tech is incredibly finicky lol. GCCs are also insanely inconsistent so people can't play on even ground to begin with, mods even the playing field to an extent. Phobs as well imo but those are very inaccessible so they're currently not fair outside of top play where the investment is worth it.
@@SleepyFen Yeah. I once heard a quote: speedrunning communities (extendible to any focused communities) have the unique ability to decide what is "okay" and what is "not okay" for what that community does. In other words, they can decide the rules.
Usually the smaller the community is the easier it is to communally decide the rules. And rules could be modified in certain situations e.g. tournaments or categories.
And I agree, there will always be an "arms race" and advantages in those categories you mentioned. Heck, ever since I got a computer that could play Minecraft at 60+ fps all the time, I have been so surprised that years ago I would tolerate playing it on potato laptops with like 20 fps (+/- a lot). To be fair I was younger back then and I guess just playing it was fun enough. But once I tasted the high refresh rate, it really opened up a responsiveness that I didn't know existed. Hence a slight advantage too.
I think reactor boost should be split into 2 blocks. So the one intended for the mapper will be used
Yeah I don't even see why the reactor boost is designed such that you can get two outcomes depending on the approach.
... except if we logically extend this idea to the normal boosts, you can "skip" them by driving backwards...
Action keys are set player input to action results either explicitly or tacitly accepted by the game designers. Custom inputs, whether virtual or physical, border the territory of hack/cheat/exploit with automation. Both virtual and physical mods can also be divided between QOL and advantage outcomes which are somewhat related to exploit vs abuse issues. Personally, I think it is funny but cheating.
Nadeo ruled against the custom steering %s which could be found in approved hard/software which provided advantage outcomes along with QOL control, so it would come down to what other external assistances they rule as cheating (exploit) or not (clever utilization/abuse of mechanics). Purists would hold that steering finesse is a skill, so I think that the controller manipulation to that extent is beyond a reasonable mod for QOL and moving that goalpost just leads to tas/botting justifications.
"this is a good shortcut, manslaughter aside"
Kobraking313 found the true meaning of Trackmania.
i love that there is also 08 cut too but he didnt know about it then. plus the 13 cut is way faster now with new setup
I am unreasonably proud of myself for spotting that 180 to backwards reactor on 16 in my discovery. Or course, I can't execute it nearly as well as these players, but it's the idea that counts right?
Yeah, if you find a cool idea on your own then that's awesome
Shortcuts go brrrrrrrr
Some of these shortcuts are bizarre that they were found within only 24 hours of the campaigns release
Kobraking313 will be remembered as the first person to take out spectators for a dub
The book strat is this generation’s ‘sharpie crosshairs on the TV’ back in the Goldeneye days...
wirtual in your videos i love your songs of choice most of the songs i never heard of but now one of my favorites, your easily my favorite youtuber by far, your main channel isnt far from 1M subs!
My first thought: give everyone custom action keys so NOBODY has an advantage
My thoughts now: give everyone custom action keys because SOMEBODY WILL have an advantage otherwise
8:39 this is done in some Zelda games, where rubber bands are used to help pull off the precise movement to exploit a literal Use-After-Free in the game.
Love this kind of follow up how the players teared up the campaign, too lazy to look it up myself. Hope we'll get one in next campaign too.
LOL! "Text book TAS." Extremely funny. Keep it up!
A troll map requires a troll solution, the book guy is the legit winner
The book isn't the part that makes it cheating, it's that this precise steering can't be replicated by a human on keyboard without a modified action key. That set up is abusing the available sensitivity in commands which is not available to a keyboard player who isn't cheating. Creative and all, and just troll of the day so all in good fun imo, but if it became a consistent thing it would absolutely be an issue.
Really seems like reactor up and down should be separate blocks
I'm still confused why it's the same block. It makes no sense for me.
Also, there really need to start using gate reset for these reactor boost. Just gate for everything, and overextend it.
Much love! I think the book trick is fun even though its cheating. Kind of like getting past restrictions in rally, its cheats but you can not not admire the creativity
but you think action keys to limit steering isn't?
Interesting thought process there 🤔
I agree. Cheating, but pretty cool idea.
@@Hannah_The_Heretic i do think the modded controler is cheating since that is out of the ordinary equipment!
But if you want to go full honesty maybe controller should not be allowed on pc and other way around.
But o dont play the game so i do not really have a word in this!
@@KingovRats I don't play either 😂
and would never play a racing game that gave keyboard players an advantage with hacked steering, I genuinely don't know why anyone would want to race on a keyboard, at least a controller has fine controls for steering, accelerating and breaking.
I see the birth of a whole new genre of tracks here.
"Press Forward (152 pages)."
the "problem" isn't about determinism, but that the track was designed in such a way that it can even be beaten by holding a static input throughout
They seem to forget that booster rings and reset rings exist. Literally if they replaced a majority of these reset blocks with a ring, these cuts would be much less likely.
I like the notch conversation! In melee, notches are fine and the “boxx” (essentially a keyboard with action keys) is a big controversy
a textbook example of an assisting tool
I love that book “How To” by Randall Munroe. He also authors a webcomic called XKCD.
tbh I love campaigns like this where the competition is more varied in skill expression rather than just the same common driving style that we're all used to.
At 3:26 I want to mention that SBVille is working on a reset skip that would give you ,with a second zoop, about 800 speed going into the slo-mo
10:30 GameCube controllers also have octagonal gates, which are like notches for platformers.
"This is a good shortcut. Manslaughter aside"
It seems strange for regulated action keys to be fairly accepted (not the customized ones), but notches wouldn’t be. It’s like there’s a large trade off with using either input device. However, having consistency in just pressing a button compared to finding the perfect angle every time-unassisted, seems to be heavily favoring keyboard users.
Automation is very helpful.
It would be a trivial physics change to give each player's run a seed beforehand, and use that to introduce noise into the physics simulation as they race.
The determinism would be retained, but no two racing lines would be absolutely identical.
Kinda how IRL works.
I want to say that the notches for mele there are some for things like fox’s up B which are directional inputs not stick percentage inputs and there is a trick I forgot the name but you have to have the stick at a specific value to not take as much knock back for more info I found it on a yt channel like ausom saus or smthn
concerning pocked steering;
there was a skip in another game I don’t remember (may have been LoZ) in which a very specific analogue stick angle is used as a skip. This was achieved by wrapping rubber bands around the controller. Seeing as this is a legal move, I think the book should be as well
Summer 2022 14th that zoop I got was actually the best one i got and its extremely hard to get it on a clean run for getting a single hyperzoop alone I spent like 1-2hr sometimes 30mins if iam lucky or getting the perfect angle.
medicine got an even crazier run on track 13 i’d love to see your reaction to that run, that run is just out of this world🤯🤯
Brings another meaning to "book smart".
I think the book is very very different to custom notches. With the book its not possible to change your steering. With the custom notches you can. Also replicating the exact steering angle with the book is less reliable. Its still "cheating" (getting an unfair advantage) in my eyes though.
It gets a pass due to the rule of cool
it's not an unfair advantage if anyone else can replicate it. However, using slowmo obviously is for obvious reasons, but you can play trackmania with a controller if you want, sooo it's not an unfair advantage since he literally showed everyone else what he did
@@SkylineLofe Cheats are something anyone else can replicate, pretty easy to install actually, so this obviously is a horrible definition to use.
I feel like it's weird to call notches cheating, but maybe that's just me. I mean, I guess it's an unfair advantage since not everyone would have one, but it's not...as serious, I guess? I don't know what I'm trying to say, maybe that notches are more of a crutch? And stuff like slow mo is an actual cheat? Something to that effect.
@@SkylineLofe I am pretty sure anyone can beat the shit out of anybody else during a race but that would be considered unsportsmanlike.
I used to play this old marble run game where you could move faster if you could push the controllers stick further than it could physically go, and I was totally fine with the people who cut away the plastic around the joy stock so it could move as far as possible.
Marble Blast Ultra on the 360's arcade, I remember this! I used to compete on the leaderboards but when this was discovered I hung up my hat because I wasn't going to ruin my controller for it.
Vehicular manslaughter cut's pretty neat
A way to prevent this is to make timed reactor boosts instead of using resets.
If they lose the reactor 2 seconds after taking it no matter what there's no point in trying to skip a reset.
It'd require a distinctive indicator as to how long the reactor boost is, but aside from that it should fix it entirely.
In short: Introduce a 2sec, 3sec, 4sec and 5sec variant of the reactor boost to avoid being reliant of resets.
puts a book on a controller: "literally TAS"
"Trackmania's physics engine is completely deterministic."
Textbook assisted speedrun is valid.
10:37
I disagree, they are different because one requires hardware modification and the other doesn't. I don't have to change anything on my controller to put a book on it, I do to create notches.
9:40 I mean that's what I would call a textbook TAS. lol
Quba and guuyst are top level tf2 jumpers, no idea they were doing this now
how did you get it to where you can just turn the replays on, dont you normally have to download the ghost?
The book trick was my favorite!
They could add a block that introduces some tiny amount of randomness when you drive over it, but not enough to change anything for human players.
medicine just broke 13 with ungodly reactor shenanigans
How do you see the records on the side (I have the standard trackmania 9.99) and when I click on a time nothing happens
Spring 2023: We have reworked the physics on reactor boosts to make them more competitive for players of all skill levels.
Im not sure how i feel about the book strat. I think its better than using custom action keys or controller notches as it isnt modifying a controller, just setting it to produce a specific output. However the reason im not certain about being ok with it is the fact that the ending has to be driven using a different steering method (im not sure if they had keyboard or a second controller, or were resetting the books between runs) My reasoning is that if you have to have the steering set to a secific angle the whole run, then the only thing the book method is able to complete faster is Lol maps which people shouldnt be taking seriously anyway. In theory you could also brace your hand against a wall and a table and get a similar result but I understand if people draw the line at 'things other than humans using the controller' instead of where I do for the competitive integrity of silly maps.
They probably just need to commit to making two new reactor boosts. One that ONLY does up. And one that ONLY does down. Regardless of direction.
It wouldn't solve all the issue, but it would stop the turn around strats.
Still leaves just the randomness that is tiny fluctuations in hover boosts though.
"I don't get how Nadeo keeps putting those reactor boosters.", he says about the company that builds tracks around bugslides, left nosebugs and uberbugs in the game but decided that *driving faster backwards was too unrealistic* .
I just think they like it when the show is flashier tbh.^^
"manslaughter aside" xD
Thats an old motocross madness trick. We always drove on the stands to miss woops and jumps
More about accessibility and what it offers the player. Anyone with a controller can place something down. As well as most people having controllers kicking around somewhere that they can use. Its also something you cant use mid run. It has to be set up first.
I imagine the people who discover these tricks are just chilling on their gaming chairs, with a lollipop and then slowly remove it while leaning towards the monitor and say "holy shit! I got it!!" 🤣
I need a video of the pyramid talk
How do i view these world records on my game I don't see the options the way he does, Is it something you have to download
Personally I love seeing cuts being discovered in the campaigns
The equivalent on a keyboard would be a motorized thing that presses the arrow key at a set frequency. That sounds like cheating to me. But there's one other thing. The Goldeneye speedrun community saw a bit of drama unfold when they removed the cover from their controller and pressed their thumb on an IC chip, causing it to not count the time during a cutscene (or something like that. I don't remember the details). This was considered modifying the controller and there was a rule made against that. Clearly, notching the controller counts as modifying the controller. But I have to imagine adding things to the controller also counts. Not just removing them. You could glue a paper clip or wrap a rubber band or add a book to the controller to hold it steady. That all sounds like the same thing to me, just with slightly decreasing severity. So is there a rule to be made, or a line to be drawn. And if it's a line, where do we draw it? as long as it's not attached to the controller, but just resting on it, that's fine? sounds tedious, finnicky, and unreasonable. I think it would make more sense to make a rule against all of it.
looks like Wirtual's getting a championship of his own without reactors
8:33 I think that guy is a xkcd fan
I think it's an interesting discussion whether the book is cheating or not. But I think a lot of ppl discussing it, are having a hard time seeing the big picture. This is not looked that serious upon, since it's being used to win CotN (and CotM) in a LOL-CotD. What if it was a normal CotD, where this was used to win? What if it was a competitive match in TMGL or anything like it?
A lot of "what ifs", I know. But keep in mind, this was found within 8 hours of the map release. And if anything, history has taught us, that cuts/exploits and the likes will get abused to the absolute limit by someone at some point, if it gains anyone even the slightest edge in gaming. Until banned.
And also, since Trackmania is 100% deterministic, you can't equivalate it with games like Melee. There are different rulesets, because they're different games.
I don't know where I end up standing on the issue tbh. Just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts on the matter.
honestly if you can make it work for you, it's actually amazing to have a book drive for you lol
The books should be legal, notches not. It’s a difference in ease of use and setup. A controller notch is always there, can’t be moved out of position, and can be used on the spot. Some books on a desk have none of that. What are you gonna do, jam your controller into a crevice between two books for every bobsleigh turn, then remove it and continue the run after the turn? They’re gonna get moved around and need repositioning every so often.
9:44 That's just some book smarts vs street smarts.
10:20 most controllers have a feture to put the stick in place
What a good textbook example there
I never had anything against custom action keys... it's just 1 more way for players at the top to squeeze out that little bit more time save, and it's not like it's hard to just have an action key, and other players can do the same, whether it be with notches or whatever. However there is some skill in understanding the game in order to find the correct angle to make the action key custom for. In the case of bobsleigh it somewhat made sense, but that was kinda the point of the ice physics update (even if it didn't work). So in my opinion the book is just a gigachad play to earn a fully deserved win.
regarding controller modifications being cheating (“physical action keys”): it’s really hard to enforce such things, since the line is so hard to define. If someone brings a “broken” controller that semi-reliably reduces steering when squeezed in some way, is that cheating?
I think, to make everything fair, we need to all play with the same input device (at least for live competitive games).
that’s right, it’s time to restrict competitive Trackmania to the arcades. Granady will be so happy to play competitively on a sim racing setup
Wirt, Scrapie told me that the technical term for a hoverboost is called a zoop. Might wanna get with the times.
3:21 I have the CP1 End version of 12 tied WR
"He whiped out about 10 spectators to get this record... but actually kinda insane shortcut" XDDD
i dont know why they dont just make dedicated blocks for reactor up and down. that would block half the cuts all by itself. they could even add them as new blocks as to not break old maps. so even when people get the horrible idea to use one, we can at least block ridiculous cuts that use that "feature"
This. Additionally I think having the length of the reactor time as a configurable parameter in the editor would be a very neat feature (similar to how CPs can be linked). So you can set it to anything between maybe 0.5 seconds and 2 minutes depending on if you just want to give the player a short boost or want a full on reactor map. Would fix many Reset-skips. And for maximum convenience they should give the player a bit more feedback about the pace at which the reactor is expiring (perhaps through sound and the backlights on the car).
Idk if you checked 13 lately, but they're doing that map backwards now, hoverboosting through the entire first bob sleigh part.
Next tournament, you see CarlJR with a stack textbooks
You mean to tell me trackmania players find ways to cheese maps..... I'm so surprised 🤯
Why don't the lock reactor direction? So a up block and a down block, regardless of which side you hit it at
I love that this video is just 21 hours old and map 13 already got cut by medicine 4 hours ago which beats elconns wr by another 1.365s
Would love to see Wirtuals reaction on that..
finally, the killslide is now an official thing
Honestly, I assumed on Track 6 that the reactor booster closely followed by a cancel meant you were *suppose* to try and skip the cancel!!
(I'm no-way near good enough to do it, though)
TH-cam gave me a notification for this AS i was watching it. good job TH-cam
Wirtual likes patrick more than spongebob
That is a 'textbook' example of unorthodox optimizing
Paper Towns, great book
textbook tas XD
That made me slip ylyl
I am actually kinda proud that i did the Winter 16 backwards trick at the end without looking at other WR. I even titled the map Omg WR Strats hahahaha!! awsome!!!!!
The difference between notches and the book is that with notches you can immediately push the stick into position, whereas with a book you need to painstakingly test different positions, and then never touch the controller again. The instant you pick it up you lose the positions and you can't simply place the controller and book next to each other mid-run to perform a specific turn. It only allows *one* controller position for the entire map. Which on any good non-troll map won't ever work.