Why Jigglypuff is AMAZING in Melee, and how it changed in Project M
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
- We all know Puff is a great character in Melee... But why?
Why is the character considered "bad" in Project Plus?
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I've gotten a lot of requests to cover a Brawl Character, considering I haven't done that yet.
I'm thinking Brawl Lucas to PM Lucas could be really fun since, they are soooo radically different.
Let me know you guys, thanks for supporting the channel!
Brawl DDD is one of my favorite heavies ever in smash, you should talk about brawl v PM DDD because my boy fell off hard
I think that sounds like a good idea. One other character that could be good for this is brawl work to PM wolf
Good on you for refering to Jigglypuff as an "it" in the title instead of automatically assuming it's a "she" like everyone else does
You didn't talk about how up throw>rest on fastfallers got axed, or how rest is just weaker, I think those are incredibly important to her viability.
As a long time puff main, I really do wish they gave her a better kit in P+, or at least buff the kit she already has to be more consistent. (Also I’ve tried playing wario but it just never felt right to me lol)
What is it about Wario that makes Puff mains dislike him? I've heard multiple Puff mains agree completely that Wario is a better Puff but that he doesn't click with them for some reason.
Even Hbox tried a bit of Wario and didn't like him in both P+ and Ult.
Is it really the lack of multiple jumps and lack of ability to turn around in the air that Puff players miss?
Maybe it's just the idea of playing for a charge on waft rather than always having access to rest.
Idk but it seems to be a common complaint.
@@Saskaruto16 Well as someone who mains Wario in P+ and played a lot of Puff as well I might be able to give some insight on that. I think while Wario and Puff are definitely similar in a lot of ways, Puff's multiple jumps in combination with her disjoint in back air makes her more about aerial spacing in neutral. She's even more aerial focus than Wario in neutral which is what I think Puff players really like about her. Wario is also pretty aerial focused to but not quite to the same extent do to his lack of jumps and stubbier aerials. It also could be because they like how floatier she is compared to Wario.
@@Saskaruto16 I think it has everything to do with their kit. They are simply too different. The only similarity they share is aerial drift.
Even though 99% of your viewers already know 100% of what the video is going over, it's always fun seeing new content out for puff in the new days
Production quality is getting pretty damn good, keep it up
I think puffs a tad underrated in pm/p+, rest is just such a good move especially with the added kill power of rest in pm, definitely no high tier but not the worst in the game imo
With the overall floaty cast the problem becomes that she really doesn't have many rest confirms on a lot of cast, and with how strong a lot of characters are they can kill her for resting them even if she's at quite low %.
Dude I know I say this a lot but THIS IS YOU AT YOUR BEST the editing is really good and all of the moves you talk about match the game play the audio mixing is really good (the jazz version of Jazzy NYC was a good choice at the start.) Even if missed some stuff (which some one would put in the coments.) this is still a really well made video. I hope to see more of this style. (not the "this how they changed in pm" in particular but this very informative type of video with out getting into too much of the nitty gritty.)
Sorry for the shitty grammar I am writing this on my phone :p.
Great video! As a Puff main in Melee, I think everything you said pretty accurately describes the changes from Melee to P+.
A quick question/critique: Who are these videos for? Most people who watch your videos seem to be players of P+ and/or Melee. If the audience member plays Melee or P+, then this video makes sense for your audience: they have a good understanding of the history of the games and changes which were previously unbeknownst to them.
But if your audience plays P+ and Melee, as I suspect most people do, then this video comes across as a bit obvious. The group of players who play both games already know Puff’s move set, which you talk about for the beginning part of the video; they already know that Puff sucks in P+.
Still, I think your video does a great job at explaining why Puff sucks in P+. It’s not because of changes to her, but because of the matchups- especially when compared to Wario. Great video, and keep up the good work!
tl;dr: consider who your audience is.
His videos are great viewing for people who are mostly interested in Melee and/or PM casually, or people who only watch but don't play, or possibly players who only play one of those games competitively but know little about the other.
@@TheDrinkingFood And even for the people who already play the game. It's important to have videos like this that do a good job at explaining the character and reminding them on why they suck/are good. And what the reasons for that may be.
Besides, it's just interesting to have these comparisons in general.
Good video! As someone who doesn’t know much of project M, I would’ve liked to see you go more into specifics of what tools the Melee top tiers now have to deal with Jigglypuff. At the very least, I would think puff would still have good matchups against them, right?
Insane to think of the effect Power creep has, and how tools to succeed in one environment doesn’t translate over nearly as well sometimes
Yeah, the Melee matchups are more or less the same. It's just that in Melee, Puff did so well against the meta characters and was able to exploit a game full of terrible recoveries. Now, those characters are still here, but now there's a bunch of viable characters that DON'T have exploitable recoveries and can't be, for example, easily confirmed into rest.
To be fair, in the more balanced games like Smash 64, PM, P+, Smash 4, and Ultimate a bottom 5 character is just as viable as a low-mid tier in Melee due to the lower power discrepancy. Melee and Brawl are something else man.
"games like... Smash 4"
Uh...
"... Ultimate"
Um...
Smash 4's gap was just as big as Brawl's, with characters like Ganondorf being equally broken while characters like Cloud and Bayonetta were just as broken as Ice Climbers and Meta Knight.
@@arnox4554 Smash 4 is hilarious to call balanced. Ultimate is more balanced but the bottom 4 or 5 characters are still really bad. It's just everyone else is decent.
Yeah... they should really replace Rollout with something else entirely, maybe something like Moonblast? Which could function like Samus's charge shot or Bowser's fireball and once fired it would fling Jiggs back pretty far. Just a rough idea. I know jiggs doesn't actually learn this move in the pokemon games but who cares.
who cares? the fanbase cares. How about keeping rollout because puff actually learns the move instead of changing it because you people care more for a character's viability in a competitive setting rather than true representation of the franchises they belong to?
I don't want jiggs to straight up have a projectile lol. I could see something like Charm being a neat move tho. Like have it be a damage/knockback debuff for the opponent if it hits but it's a non damaging projectile. Have it last a decentish amount of time too so it actually does something and can maybe help her live a hit she wouldn't otherwise. Plus I think this fits with jiggs' personality in smash
Hurts to see as a puff main in a lot of transitions. Pm puff is pretty fine. But she’s just outclassed by a lot of other character changes. And she really wasn’t buffed at all, seeing how if she was as a top 3 character in melee. It would “kill the game.” But that didn’t pan out well at all. I like jigglypuff because she’s a unique crazy good character. But seeing the fall eventually crumble down is upsetting. I loved this video.
People just need to play puff lol
Great content, as usual :)
What's the song that plays at the beginning, 0:00, btw? It's very funky and I love it.
can I use a clip of this in a video I'm working on? great video!
yea for sure man, feel free to use whatever you want.
I've always had a crazy idea for a Puff rework that fits the glass cannon style: Rest doesn't leave her punishable on hit. Instead she takes damage from using it (somewhere between 30%-50% probably) but she actually has to lose another neutral interaction afterwards to die from it.
That and swapping out of a couple of her useless moves for some that could let her have some additional rest combos on floaties would fix her, give her a new interesting style of Puff for more prevalent floaty P+ matchups, while keeping her playstyle against fastfallers pretty much the same.
This would also help characters like Sheik and others who have notoriously bad rest punishes as everyone gets the same damage against her for using it.
Yeah, no. Replacing a large portion of Puff's moveset just simply for competitive value is bad game design. Rollout and Sing should be kept because they represent the universe she belongs to and that she could learn the moves in her home game. Project M worked because they didn't just appeal to the competitive fanbase, they also appealed to casuals and represented the character in their franchises.
Also, considering that about 90% of puff's other moves have utility, the fact that she has a few useless moves has no bearing on her viability.
@@lapplandkun9273
I honestly don't think you could be more wrong in any of what you wrote here.
You are completely off base when it comes to changing parts of characters kits: Replacing parts of a characters kit for competitive function is the opposite of bad game design, it's good game design. That's why non functional characters, low tiers, etc, in all games from League to Street Fighter, Tekken, and PM itself (which he mentions and shows examples of in this very video), get reworked into better, more functional, and less degenerate versions that people will enjoy. PM Literally has multiple heavily reworked characters on the roster for that reason.
You're also wrong that PM didn't appeal to competitive players. That's exactly the group they appealed to. Their entire original design philosophy was to make everyone very strong, close to Melee Fox, and to make everyone competitively viable. They had multiple pros give input on their balance and repeatedly patched the game to make it progressively more balanced competitively. We even had P+ years later add yet another balance patch to further push the roster into a more balanced state after the years had shown some specifically negative outliers. To say the opposite is to lack any understanding of the history of PM.
You're also wrong in that "90% of Puffs other moves have utility". The problem with Puff as outlined in this very video is that she lacks utility. She can't deal with a lot of these characters with good recoveries, range, and who tend to be a lot more floaty.
Puff more than any other Melee top tier is known for having specific moves that are extremely powerful and many moves that are either niche or bad. Even several of the tools that work for her effectively in Melee aren't useful in PM matchups whatsoever. She doesn't have a wide arsenal of tools to let her play against many different styles and matchups the way the top and high tiers in PM generally do.
That's why she needs to be reworked. Even this video says she has basically been replaced by Wario and the reason people haven't buffed or reworked her is more so out of fear of her becoming strong in a "toxic" way that would turn people off from the game.
I would start by reworking the tools that aren't effective in basically any matchup, things like her down throw, down tilt, f-tilt, and then look at changing aspects like rest to so it's function is made more consistent across that cast. Things like that would help her a lot by giving her some additional options against the newer floaty opponents she can't deal with, while being careful to avoid giving her many buffs that would increase her power against the fast fallers she already does decently against. We could also look at reworking or swapping out specials that don't work very well like sing and potentially Rollout in favor of options with more utility that would serve her better in the multitude of matchups in PM.
@@lapplandkun9273 I get keeping sing as a move(maybe it could be reworked to be more of a counter but I don't mind keeping it) but there are so many better ways to represent her than rollout. She's a fairy type now, maybe give her a projectile(disarming voice or dazzling gleam), or give her draining kiss(the problem with this is it's probably too similar to Wario who she already has much in common with), or give her play rough and have it be a command grab or some recoil move or something. There are many better options.
@@donaldjgumpofficial5754 That means also reworking the rest of the cast because there will always be someone who says that their character's tool is below average. Competitive players will always find something to complain about in a character's tool. Then its an endless cycle of characters being reworked until they don't even represent the archetype anymore, where every character becomes smash 4 bayonetta
@@lapplandkun9273 I understand that concern. However, Rollout has been consistently a dreadful move(it's very fun though lol) since its introduction so I think we can change that move without causing a cascading effect.
Could you make a vid on Hbox? I know there are videos on him, but it would enjoyable to see your take on him.
i feel like they could still change some stuff up with her via pure numbers and stuff. if they maybe game something like ultimate drill, which is a very good move, maybe tweak it to be a bit harder to sdi cause iirc its still super easy to, i think she would be very unique in terms of her smash iterations. also i main her in all games and think it would be cool to see
Suggestion:
Please share ideas for revamping characters
Puff needs to be revamped as wario is just better right now
Wario isn't strictly better than Puff and I am so tired of people spreading that
@@WeaterdeaTH i mean the official tier list would disagree, but okay
@@WeaterdeaTH Puff has better air speed and earlier kill power so technically better at camping and punishing but wario is the safer option in most scenarios as he commits less and weighs more
Did I forget to mention how easily he can combo
Or how waft covers decent area
Personally I rhink puff needs to buffed as a rushdown character that can be punished hard with sleep being less punishing at the cost of less kill power ( maybe heal 1% every 2 sec but needs to be tuned)
I've always had a crazy idea for a Puff rework that fits the glass cannon style: Rest doesn't leave her punishable on hit. Instead she takes damage from using it (somewhere between 30%-50% probably) but she actually has to lose another neutral interaction afterwards to die from it.
That and swapping out of a couple of her useless moves for some that could let her have some additional rest combos on floaties would fix her, give her a new interesting style of Puff for more prevalent floaty P+ matchups, while keeping her playstyle against fastfallers pretty much the same.
This would also help characters like Sheik and others who have notoriously bad rest punishes as everyone gets the same damage against her for using it.
"thanks to a lot of people who single handedly.."
Praise the L-rd for iBDW, Zain, Plup, Wizzy, Leffen, who show that Puff camping can and will be taken care of and won't define the meta anymore
Why food is AMAZING in melee and how it changed in smash flash 2
What Jazzy nyc remix is that?
2:50 leffen is Just a sore loser
Great video
Because the PM devs decided the game should be project recovery. And 5 jumps is useless when trying to edge guard half the brawl new comers
I love these videos. Could you do one on Brawl characters like Lucas, or even add in a Brawl section for these characters? Puff is so much worse in Brawl for the same reasons as she’s considered low tier in P+, and I’d love to see the comparisons between those 2 games and Melee if possible.
Yes Lucas would be a good one
Yeah!
Well, not really, the main reasons Brawl Puff is bad is because she no longer has Rest, her air mobility is much worse (on a character who sucks on the ground in a game that punishes fighting on the ground anyway), air dodges are free and hitstun canceling is an extremely dumb mechanic born out of spite.
PM Puff is merely outdated in comparison, which hurts her a lot because half of her moveset isn't really functional while most characters no longer have to deal with that.
@@anothenblue2630 is there anything good about jigglypuff in brawl?
@@jalilfrancois7700 she's heavier than in Melee (not by too much, but still), Rest poisons the enemy (but while the damage is neat, it's still Brawl Rest), Rollout no longer leaves her in freefall (but it's Rollout), her pummel is much faster, etc. but none of it is enough, she's a contender for the worst character in the game for a good reason.
off topic but hungrybox beard is like my dads beard lol
Jigglypuff was also super hated in Melee, even Hungrybox didn't deserve the hate.
Why say "Even Hungrybox"? He's one of the lesser toxic Puff players in the melee community.
@@dhans9662 Remember when Hungrybox won and someone threw a crab at him?
😂😂 no , i think is a hype character not easy to play for the weight and risk for place rest
@@lorenzo77dascenzo70 Okay Child jigglypuff excels in recovery
@@cloudleoricrivera5010 yes i have disadvantages and advantages.
I would make rest recovery 2x as fast on hit. And change rollout into something else. Don't know what though
"I would make rest recovery 2x as fast on hit."
Still would leave her quite vulnerable. How about this. Keep the long-ass recovery, but Rest now heals 50 percentage points on hit as the name should imply.
Weird to think people hate puff so change nothing about her and make everyone else better, you could fix a lot of the issues with simple QoL changes to make her more aggressive. When PM came out I figured I'd drop puff for Metaknight anyways because I wanted a more aggressive puff, but they made him some weird semi-fastfalling marth kirby hybrid who worked surprisingly better on the ground. Puff's movement is so interesting in the air, why abandon her for how well it compliments rest and bair? I wouldn't even mind if they nerfed those moves for a buffed kit in other ways. Wario is interesting but he's got the stuff people don't like about puff as a more balanced, aggressive version, but missing what makes her feel so good to play as. If I'm not 360 degree dash dancing in the air, I don't need a pseudo rest.
she just got left out because melee players hate puff 😭
Most of the heavies in this game have huge restable hitboxes. Jiggs beats Gigabowser after all LOL
@ 2:20 hey thats me!! :3
Why on earth Project M/+ didn't give a fairy type move on her moveset despite having the fairy typing?
you sound like psychicpebbles
2:15 YOOOOO!! Let's go Val!!
You used effect as a verb when you said "effects the matchup". It should be affect as effect is a noun.
who else but leffen and his stans unironically wanted puff banned or restricted in melee lol
edit: p+ puff could use a few tweaks to make her better (also please add a scream tail skin thank you very much)
Yes
hello
Melee puff being called top 3 in melee in 2022 is crazy to me, she's probably 5th MAYBE 4th if you're being very optimistic.
incredibly funny tht learning matchups n not winning on char select is enough to make her considered the worst in the game
Weird how PMDT gave Puff a costume to reference her fairy typing overhaul, yet even the P+ team left her moveset unchanged.
We also don’t see enough Rests in PM, if she gains more tools to setup it might make her a bigger threat.
•Rest heals. Idc how much or when but we all agree the move needs it.
•Replace Rollout with a Fairy move, Pound is already a good recovery tool. But other than that, it’s a useless move.
•Dash attack leaves her airborne and carries momentum. Suits her lightweight and game plan.
•Finally as a joke, holding down shield A + B + taunt causes her to use Self Destruct. Think shorter-ranged Kamikaze.
The bias in Stuff like PM and P+ is the shit in the smash community I dont like
I want devs to give Puff those buffs below
#1: Reducing ending lag of Rest to around 60 frames only when it hits
#2: Giving more range to Sing
#3: Making Fthrow's angle more horizontal
Comment
p+ should really let puff act out of rollout
I also really hate that sing exists in a game where sleep darts exist. If we remove any B move it should be sing. Move sing to a taunt button
This is how could I change her moveset:
B: Dazzling Gleam
Up B: Bounce
Side B: Rollout
Down B: Rest
"a small vocal minority..."
You can say "Leffen", it's okay.
top 3? ur wild number 5 probs
Why don’t you ever talk about the character in brawl? Like I know that PM is mostly based on melee but they still have to contend with how the character is designed in brawl right?
I get the logic but... Brawl was just so... So bad that many discussions on the characters in it are mostly just going to be summed up with, "This character was bad," and "This character was broken."
@@arnox4554 I disagree, brawl had 15-20 viable characters that could make top 8 at majors. And the character designs were super interesting, but what holds it back is the game design. Brawls systems aren’t great, but the game is still really fun because of how wacky the characters are.
@@jackclifton5434 "brawl had 15-20 viable characters that could make top 8"
Metaknight.
@@arnox4554 brawl had 36 majors according to liquipedia, it had 14 different characters finish top 2 at those majors.
At the last 34 melee majors there were 7 characters that finished top 2. Obviously it’s not the best comparison but still. Brawl’s meta is more diverse than people gave it credit for.
@@jackclifton5434 Hey, I'm not going to argue that Melee didn't have shit balancing all said and done, but even so, Brawl had some BAD core problems dealing with the gameplay. Maybe some were able to suffer through it, but honestly... Why? Project Plus fixes EVERYTHING.
For a casual, Jigglypuff is terrible but Kirby amazing.
In pro play, Jigglypuff is god tier and Kirby is terrible 😄
Noice
I think these videos need a bit more research or fact checking going into the melee section. It was especially bad in the fox video, but this one too seems to have a lot of strange takes presented as fact ("puff dies early" despite having an incredible recovery with a ton of mixups and such low gravity that she almost never had to recover low making her live to pretty high percents) or straight up misinformation (rest kills a whole lot earlier than 26%). Like I said I love these videos, but just a bit more effort into seeing that what you're saying is true would go a long way
What are you talking about she does die early shes light and can die easily to stray moves and simple kill confirm setups.People use her air mobility to live longer but that does not change the fact that she dies fast.
Your wording is a bit weird "thanks to a lot of people like Hungrybox he has singlehandedly"
You can tell pm was made by melee player because the species are good and puff is ass.
People "even like Mang0" yeah bro work on your video essays more. Thats not how that was supposed to be phrased. Mang0 first off showed better results that Hbox.
He never even stated Mango was worse than Hbox. i have no clue where you got that from
Jiggly deserves the hate if u to play like a b, but hbox deserves to a little respect for taking her so far
"hate the opponent for playing the character as intended"
@@chrispo7610
"hate the opponent for playing the character around its weakness"
I don't really get these people, especially when the char's weakness becomes even more apparent throughout the whole game
melee puff has bad neutral? you lost me there
its pulled literally from the smash wiki
"Because of this, Jigglypuff's neutral game is considered to be lackluster among the top tiers. Not only is it forced to play an aerial spacing game, but it also lacks effective lingering hitboxes. Jigglypuff's neutral and forward aerials lose power quickly, and can be crouch canceled up to medium percentages."
@@ZachHonest ok I mean that's not exactly a top level source, anyway it's just not true, jigglypuff played properly obviously has the best neutral in the game besides marth and maybe a super campy falcon, because of her extreme disjoint and aerial mobility
@@TylerClibbon man don't hate on him. If you people keep on being WELL ACTHUALLY 🤓, then videos like this will stop being made
@@BlissGeometryDash well idk it seemed weird, i still liked the video
Aint gay but he called puff by her wrong pronoun 😭😭😭😭. Not that i care