You might find this a bit rediculous, (edit: oops, should have watched the part where you talk about that exact usage) but I actually use a grigri for belaying from the top on multipitch climbs. The weight can be annoying, but I find it really easy to control, especially for giving slack. It also feels less friction-y when I have to rig up a 3 to 1 pulley to help my second a bit. The funny thing is that is pretty much the only things I use it for. For anything lead belaying, I still prefer an atc or equivalent tube device. Right now I'm looking at the mammut bionic alpine device for lead belaying and rappelling, looks really nice with steel inserts on the wear surfaces.
I’m an RCI and ML and a climber of modest grade with 25 years’ experience. I think this guy is a great teacher, at least in the TH-cam medium. I’ve seen a lot of Instructors in my line of work (rope access) and being a rope access (IRATA) Assessor (and an Instructor for many years) I feel I have a sense of when someone is passionate, clear at communicating, dynamic and effective. For me, JB is fantastic. Having had to talk into a camera a few times, it’s not nearly as easy as he makes it look!! I’m really enjoying his videos and I feel it’s really helping me focus towards one day attempting my WML, MCI etc. Wishing you all the best and I must / will subscribe etc. A.
I like the Megajul - really versatile, simple and light. It takes one or 2 ropes, can be used as an ABD, or reversed to act as a conventional basic belay/abseil device. Can also be used in guide mode too. It’s been my preferred device for a while.
Have you heard and/or used the Alpine Up? It’s an atc version of the click up that can do everything the megajul can do with the addition of assisted braking belay and rappel as well as independent breaking when belay two ropes on guide mode. It’s been around for a little while but, for whatever reason, it hasn’t become that popular.
Really like your calm and diplomatic attitude when sharing your knowledge. Makes it smooth to follow along and build oneself's impression while staying critial. Keep doing what you do!
Great vid again, now there are many ,many good vids on all aspects of climbing/scrambling etc, all as said full of seriously useful info, but what many lack is a sort of virtual attachment to the viewer, you have nailed it JB and confirmed to me by someone who recently did their ML Assessment & Training with you. I also love the way that you usualy take the time to reply to comments Keep up the great work Jez, be safe and Cheers'.
Really nice video. I loved that you actually went into some of the physics of the type of device will influence the Newtons a piece of gear. I had wondered about that so it was really nice to have it mentioned here. Also super interesting, as you said, to see how petzl lays out calculating fall factors. I learned a lot here. Cheers!
I love a grigri for indoor lead and sport when using 9.8 and smaller ropes. Top rope, bottom rope and trad I tend to use a guide plate. Love the additional functionality of the guide plate with direct belays. Also a neat trick that can be used to switch from an extended abseil to ascent if you need to switch around mid-decent. HOWEVER... If someone's projecting a route the grigri is coming out regardless. Rather more comfortable if someone's sat around for ages. Have you had a chance to play around with the new beal birdie? A mate bought one and I've gotta say, I might be buying one before too long.
Projecting is where a grigri type device comes in to it's own hey?! I've not picked a Birdie up, I saw an Epic TV review that was pretty positive about it though. I've belayed for thousands of hours with a grigri, I don't think I'll be swapping for the birdie or anything else anytime soon, but never say never!
I think my exaggeration of "however" might have been a little misplaced and extreme as I still don't use it when trad climbing at all. But when sport or lead I tend to chop and change between ATC and grigri to stay practiced in both. If I know the climber will be sat around tho the grigri will come out. As you say both the grigri and ATC have their places where they have their benefits. Birdie does seem to be getting rather good reviews. I'm tempted to buy one myself to have a play.
I tend to find that most of the people who tell me they hate grigri’s or other ABD’s have never had proper instruction on how to use them and upon a good chat and some active learning most of them tend to like the use of them by the end of the session. I took a huge fall on looking glass rock in North Carolina and if it wasn’t for a running belayer and a grigri I’m sure I would have been on the floor rather than the 2m off it I landed!
Yeah I think you're right. They do take a little getting used to, but ABD's do seem the way forwards in many situations! A running belayer sounds exciting!
Picked up one recently, great for bottom rope belaying but definitely require practice for lead belaying,. Feels very strange at first but after a while the advantages of using a Grigri become apparent. Outdoors I've been using it to abseil, inspect routes, and in time will look at using it to ascend a rope. Might be another video on that topic JB, thanks for all the videos so far, excellent source of info.
Out of interest, how often do you find yourself using the thumb override method with the grigri? I've been trying never to use it which you can almost do but there are moments where avoiding it causes problems.
I love them for indoor bottom roping but I feel super uncomfortable using them for lead climbing so I stick to a standard atc. Great informative video.😃
Love the grigri with a skinny rope once it's use has entered muscle memory, which takes a while. I do agree it's smoother once you know it. The thing I love about the clickup is you can hand it to any ATC user at a wall or sport crag and get a safer belay. Much more intuitive and easier to use safely.
Thanks, this one is good to know. And what are your thoughts on Edelrid jul type of devices? So light and simple, it should be loved by many, but I don't hear a lot about them..
Pleasure! Must admit I've only used the Edelrid devices a very small amount of time. Can't say I'm a fan but like a lot of these things, if you commit a little time to them, they become much nicer. For me the Grigri is just so good, I don't have much motivation to change!
Have you considered trying the edelrid megajul? I have been using one for years now and though it is not perfect at anything it is workable-to-very-good at everything. Relatively cheap. Extremely lightweight. Durable. Thoughts?
I’ve used one, but only briefly. Good devices for sure but I’d rather have “the best” belay device for each type of climbing, eg Grigri for sport, atc guide for trad (for me!)
@@JBMountainSkills That is totally legit. Thanks for replying! I think your channel is great and I like your approach to teaching. Keep up the good work!
With the revo it works in either direction. It pays out super smooth (as you said). As intuitive as a tube. It will lock up with an arms length of slack (plus on a lead fall youve already built up that 4mps, so not sure about that "ride", ive never seen it). It holds the lock, but only takes .005 of a second to disengage. Which the auto lock is only for worst of the worst case scenarios (or lead solo) so who cares anyway..? In my opinion. The only down sides are weight, cost, and the fact you can only run one rope. All of which are issues shared with half this list, especially the grigri. Winner in my book, with the exception of the giga jul.
I’ve used a revo quite a lot now, still absolutely not a fan. I’ve done a lot of falling off play with it, leading and top roping, and given it to a lot of people to try out, the reactions are nearly always the same, people never like it. Glad you like it but it’s most definitely not for me!
Top work on the videos, been a staple while trying to hone the skills in lockdown!! What's your opinion on using a grigri to repel? I've never quite got my head around how it would work but would love to not have to carry two devices for the same job ...
Glad you've enjoyed them! If it's a fixed line they're ace. If it's a retrievable the short answer is you have to tie into one end and it becomes a hybrid abseil / self lower and the rope moves through the anchor.
@@JBMountainSkills What do you think about abseiling with a grigri (on fixed line) and no prussik knot back-up ? I've seen a lot of people doing that, including mountain guides during multipitch routes cleaning/equiping. Being a reverso guy, seeing this was quite unsettling, and against all I've learn about abseiling. Thanks for your brilliant videos BTW, cheers from France.
Excuse me for a bit of devils advocate here. Is there an argument there to say a body belay would be better than a reverse (using the same logic). The Petzl tests were an interesting one as in the factor one the guy was seriously slammed around and ended up with his hands scarily close to the reverse (i.ibb.co/6yzFYbQ/factor-1-reverso.jpg). I would guess that many beginners holding their first factor one fall without gloves (like most do) would drop this one. There are lots of other factors too, including the strength of the brake hand (a hard catch on a reverse brings the difference down to around 20%) the rope (15-20% variation between thin bouncy and hard wearing rope). Halves (usually caught on one strand for soft catch). Finally, I think the big variation of 50% difference is only really evidenced in a big (factor 1) fall and a soft(slippy) rank hand catch which is probably in the professional climber territory. For smaller falls (typical factor 0.1-0.4) the difference is in the order of 15%. Also, if you've got an old rope, that can increase force on protector by 20% (same if you've just fallen on a new rope - swap ends, new knots). My personal conclusion is that if you manage the territory (ropes, rope drag, etc) then the differences are less than suggested and if your protection is marginal enough to make a difference you should probably be professional enough to choose wisely. If your protection is as strong as it should be, it probably doesn't matter which device but the Grigri probably adds enough extra safety (from inattention, hands into device, dropping brake strand in surprise etc) that it's problems are outweighed. We'll never get a really good answer but perhaps some day in the future we'll look back on using reverso's in the same way we look back at using body belays... Not sure why I typed all that now :-)
Tim Parkin id love to see Petzl do the grigri vs atc test with a complete beginner belayer, a weekend warrior and also an experienced guide. I spoke with a Petzl athlete who is an IFMGA guide and he said he did some testing with Petzl and his catches on a grigri put out less force on the placements than his catches on a atc. Interesting stuff!
I love a bit of devil's advocate! It's absolutely a complicated subject, sadly I struggle to keep the length of videos down to a manageable level as it is! ABD's are becoming more and more normal even in the UK, I do think we'll see some varieties used on trad more and more.
@@JBMountainSkills Yeah I understand that.. it's a fascinating and stupidly complicated area. I do like a few of the websites that do real world tests of these things that have been enabled by reasonably priced and fast force plates. (how not to Highline have been very interesting).
Are you a Grigri lover or hater?!
Lover!
You might find this a bit rediculous, (edit: oops, should have watched the part where you talk about that exact usage) but I actually use a grigri for belaying from the top on multipitch climbs. The weight can be annoying, but I find it really easy to control, especially for giving slack. It also feels less friction-y when I have to rig up a 3 to 1 pulley to help my second a bit. The funny thing is that is pretty much the only things I use it for. For anything lead belaying, I still prefer an atc or equivalent tube device. Right now I'm looking at the mammut bionic alpine device for lead belaying and rappelling, looks really nice with steel inserts on the wear surfaces.
Love it, but was great to hear the pros/cons when it comes to trad before I get into that form of climbing myself. Thanks as always!
@@wenkeli1409 All of the guides in my area use a grigri for multi-pitch and top belay 👍
I’m an RCI and ML and a climber of modest grade with 25 years’ experience. I think this guy is a great teacher, at least in the TH-cam medium. I’ve seen a lot of Instructors in my line of work (rope access) and being a rope access (IRATA) Assessor (and an Instructor for many years) I feel I have a sense of when someone is passionate, clear at communicating, dynamic and effective. For me, JB is fantastic. Having had to talk into a camera a few times, it’s not nearly as easy as he makes it look!!
I’m really enjoying his videos and I feel it’s really helping me focus towards one day attempting my WML, MCI etc.
Wishing you all the best and I must / will subscribe etc.
A.
Glad you've enjoyed the videos and best of luck working towards your next quals!
I like the Megajul - really versatile, simple and light. It takes one or 2 ropes, can be used as an ABD, or reversed to act as a conventional basic belay/abseil device. Can also be used in guide mode too. It’s been my preferred device for a while.
Have you heard and/or used the Alpine Up? It’s an atc version of the click up that can do everything the megajul can do with the addition of assisted braking belay and rappel as well as independent breaking when belay two ropes on guide mode. It’s been around for a little while but, for whatever reason, it hasn’t become that popular.
personally i feel more in touch to my climbers needs using a body belay
Really like your calm and diplomatic attitude when sharing your knowledge. Makes it smooth to follow along and build oneself's impression while staying critial. Keep doing what you do!
Great vid again, now there are many ,many good vids on all aspects of climbing/scrambling etc, all as said full of seriously useful info, but what many lack is a sort of virtual attachment to the viewer, you have nailed it JB and confirmed to me by someone who recently did their ML Assessment & Training with you.
I also love the way that you usualy take the time to reply to comments
Keep up the great work Jez, be safe and Cheers'.
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the kind words!
Thanks Jez
Really nice video. I loved that you actually went into some of the physics of the type of device will influence the Newtons a piece of gear. I had wondered about that so it was really nice to have it mentioned here. Also super interesting, as you said, to see how petzl lays out calculating fall factors. I learned a lot here. Cheers!
Cheers, Glad you liked it!
I love a grigri for indoor lead and sport when using 9.8 and smaller ropes. Top rope, bottom rope and trad I tend to use a guide plate. Love the additional functionality of the guide plate with direct belays. Also a neat trick that can be used to switch from an extended abseil to ascent if you need to switch around mid-decent.
HOWEVER... If someone's projecting a route the grigri is coming out regardless. Rather more comfortable if someone's sat around for ages.
Have you had a chance to play around with the new beal birdie? A mate bought one and I've gotta say, I might be buying one before too long.
Projecting is where a grigri type device comes in to it's own hey?!
I've not picked a Birdie up, I saw an Epic TV review that was pretty positive about it though. I've belayed for thousands of hours with a grigri, I don't think I'll be swapping for the birdie or anything else anytime soon, but never say never!
I think my exaggeration of "however" might have been a little misplaced and extreme as I still don't use it when trad climbing at all. But when sport or lead I tend to chop and change between ATC and grigri to stay practiced in both. If I know the climber will be sat around tho the grigri will come out. As you say both the grigri and ATC have their places where they have their benefits.
Birdie does seem to be getting rather good reviews. I'm tempted to buy one myself to have a play.
Got to love a Grigri for sport climbing
Definitely!
I like grigris, i typically prefer using an atc tho. Same reason i like manual transmission. Makes you pay a bit more attention.
I like the analogy!
I tend to find that most of the people who tell me they hate grigri’s or other ABD’s have never had proper instruction on how to use them and upon a good chat and some active learning most of them tend to like the use of them by the end of the session. I took a huge fall on looking glass rock in North Carolina and if it wasn’t for a running belayer and a grigri I’m sure I would have been on the floor rather than the 2m off it I landed!
Yeah I think you're right. They do take a little getting used to, but ABD's do seem the way forwards in many situations!
A running belayer sounds exciting!
Picked up one recently, great for bottom rope belaying but definitely require practice for lead belaying,. Feels very strange at first but after a while the advantages of using a Grigri become apparent. Outdoors I've been using it to abseil, inspect routes, and in time will look at using it to ascend a rope. Might be another video on that topic JB, thanks for all the videos so far, excellent source of info.
Glad you've enjoyed the videos!
Definitely need a little perseverance for lead belaying, but once you get the hang of 'em they're so good!
Out of interest, how often do you find yourself using the thumb override method with the grigri? I've been trying never to use it which you can almost do but there are moments where avoiding it causes problems.
The GigaJul is an interesting ABD for use with 2 ropes.
I'd like to have a play with one again, been a while since I did.
I love them for indoor bottom roping but I feel super uncomfortable using them for lead climbing so I stick to a standard atc. Great informative video.😃
Worth persevering! So good for indoors and sport once youre used to 'em
Love the grigri with a skinny rope once it's use has entered muscle memory, which takes a while. I do agree it's smoother once you know it. The thing I love about the clickup is you can hand it to any ATC user at a wall or sport crag and get a safer belay. Much more intuitive and easier to use safely.
GriGri is my device of choice, but you're right, there's more intuitive devices!
I find Grigris super versatile
Thanks, this one is good to know.
And what are your thoughts on Edelrid jul type of devices? So light and simple, it should be loved by many, but I don't hear a lot about them..
Pleasure!
Must admit I've only used the Edelrid devices a very small amount of time. Can't say I'm a fan but like a lot of these things, if you commit a little time to them, they become much nicer. For me the Grigri is just so good, I don't have much motivation to change!
@@JBMountainSkills Thanks! Sure, why to change if one already works
Have you considered trying the edelrid megajul? I have been using one for years now and though it is not perfect at anything it is workable-to-very-good at everything. Relatively cheap. Extremely lightweight. Durable. Thoughts?
I’ve used one, but only briefly. Good devices for sure but I’d rather have “the best” belay device for each type of climbing, eg Grigri for sport, atc guide for trad (for me!)
@@JBMountainSkills That is totally legit. Thanks for replying! I think your channel is great and I like your approach to teaching. Keep up the good work!
With the revo it works in either direction. It pays out super smooth (as you said). As intuitive as a tube. It will lock up with an arms length of slack (plus on a lead fall youve already built up that 4mps, so not sure about that "ride", ive never seen it). It holds the lock, but only takes .005 of a second to disengage. Which the auto lock is only for worst of the worst case scenarios (or lead solo) so who cares anyway..? In my opinion. The only down sides are weight, cost, and the fact you can only run one rope. All of which are issues shared with half this list, especially the grigri. Winner in my book, with the exception of the giga jul.
I’ve used a revo quite a lot now, still absolutely not a fan. I’ve done a lot of falling off play with it, leading and top roping, and given it to a lot of people to try out, the reactions are nearly always the same, people never like it.
Glad you like it but it’s most definitely not for me!
@@JBMountainSkillsYou know, It seems to be much like anchovies on pizza. You either love it, or you hate it.
@@saxonhigdon116 haha, yep I think you’re right! Anchovies, 🤮🤮🤮!
Top work on the videos, been a staple while trying to hone the skills in lockdown!! What's your opinion on using a grigri to repel? I've never quite got my head around how it would work but would love to not have to carry two devices for the same job ...
Glad you've enjoyed them!
If it's a fixed line they're ace. If it's a retrievable the short answer is you have to tie into one end and it becomes a hybrid abseil / self lower and the rope moves through the anchor.
@@JBMountainSkills What do you think about abseiling with a grigri (on fixed line) and no prussik knot back-up ? I've seen a lot of people doing that, including mountain guides during multipitch routes cleaning/equiping. Being a reverso guy, seeing this was quite unsettling, and against all I've learn about abseiling.
Thanks for your brilliant videos BTW, cheers from France.
WHats the name of that Beasties film?
th-cam.com/video/ZCyqR2RXoQU/w-d-xo.html
I'd like to know if you have seen/used a Beal Birdie and what your thoughts were on it if you had.
Only briefly, but it's a nice piece of kit, feels very well made :)
Grigri is king
I definitely agree!
spinny thing in there... ;)
You can put everything aside when you have a Beal Birdie and BD ATC...
Excuse me for a bit of devils advocate here. Is there an argument there to say a body belay would be better than a reverse (using the same logic). The Petzl tests were an interesting one as in the factor one the guy was seriously slammed around and ended up with his hands scarily close to the reverse (i.ibb.co/6yzFYbQ/factor-1-reverso.jpg). I would guess that many beginners holding their first factor one fall without gloves (like most do) would drop this one. There are lots of other factors too, including the strength of the brake hand (a hard catch on a reverse brings the difference down to around 20%) the rope (15-20% variation between thin bouncy and hard wearing rope). Halves (usually caught on one strand for soft catch). Finally, I think the big variation of 50% difference is only really evidenced in a big (factor 1) fall and a soft(slippy) rank hand catch which is probably in the professional climber territory. For smaller falls (typical factor 0.1-0.4) the difference is in the order of 15%. Also, if you've got an old rope, that can increase force on protector by 20% (same if you've just fallen on a new rope - swap ends, new knots). My personal conclusion is that if you manage the territory (ropes, rope drag, etc) then the differences are less than suggested and if your protection is marginal enough to make a difference you should probably be professional enough to choose wisely. If your protection is as strong as it should be, it probably doesn't matter which device but the Grigri probably adds enough extra safety (from inattention, hands into device, dropping brake strand in surprise etc) that it's problems are outweighed. We'll never get a really good answer but perhaps some day in the future we'll look back on using reverso's in the same way we look back at using body belays... Not sure why I typed all that now :-)
Tim Parkin id love to see Petzl do the grigri vs atc test with a complete beginner belayer, a weekend warrior and also an experienced guide. I spoke with a Petzl athlete who is an IFMGA guide and he said he did some testing with Petzl and his catches on a grigri put out less force on the placements than his catches on a atc. Interesting stuff!
I love a bit of devil's advocate! It's absolutely a complicated subject, sadly I struggle to keep the length of videos down to a manageable level as it is!
ABD's are becoming more and more normal even in the UK, I do think we'll see some varieties used on trad more and more.
I'd love to do a soft catch type video at some point but I'm not sure sling mountain is the place for it!
@@JBMountainSkills Yeah I understand that.. it's a fascinating and stupidly complicated area. I do like a few of the websites that do real world tests of these things that have been enabled by reasonably priced and fast force plates. (how not to Highline have been very interesting).