Why?!? Because it is a bunch of bull crap! That's why!!! Joseph Smith has an account of that visitation in the Doctrine and Covenants, and if someone else did write it, then he had ample time to correct it before he died!!!
I am a descendent of multiple polygamous family lines, and to know that my grandparents could have enjoyed peace instead of heartbreak is saddening. What has our culture done, how did we not see the lies from the beginning? I do hope that all truth will continue to be made known, even when it's hard. So, thank you Rob for continuing to share.
Mac, this Rob guy is leaving out very important details and teachings from Joseph and other prophets to fit his agenda and throwing in his own reasoning for the guidance they give. If you continue to follow people like him you will be left with no testimony of God, no hope for Christ, and neither root nor branch. the teach8ngs of the brethren are true from Joseph Smith till president Nelson. I personally have been in the presence of some our later day prophets and apostles and they are truly the Lord's servants and His voice for our time. Be ware of false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing.
Joel, what has Rob left out and how exactly is he saying God and Christ do not exist? Rob’s information according to my research has all checked out. Are you afraid of truth?
@@joelchildress7613 Incorrect. I think that all things should be questioned. If it is true it will stand scrutiny. You did not quote anything that he left out. I believe that wilford woodruff taught false doctrine when he said that the president couldn't lead the church astray. Then we have 10 presidents from Joseph onward spouting nonsense and teaching false doctrine about blacks etc. This was allowed to happen apparently because so few were willing to question anything.
You truly are doing amazing work here in revealing the truth. It’s amazing how much more the gospel makes sense, when you are willing to acknowledge what has been going on within the Church since the death of Joseph and Hyrum. I only wish I could freely share this entire channel to others without being stoned. In the meantime, I’ll just continue to look for people with open hearts and minds that truly wish to follow Christ, rather than a church.
I've said this before, if you don't have to protect "everything after Joseph" in order for the Book of Mormon to be true (as we have been told our whole lives, "IF the Book of Mormon is true, then it is ALL true, there is no other option", you come to a very eye-opening place.
I find it interesting in reading in Matthew 17 when Elias and Moses appeared to the Savior and the disciples, Jesus asked them not to mention it to anyone until after he was resurrected. Isn’t it interesting that the same thing kind of occurred with Joseph and Oliver, this was never mentioned until after their deaths. Do we then question whether or not Moses and Elias appeared to the savior?
Lies are being exposed. Truth about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon has been buried for nearly 200 years. But God's plans for the Book of Mormon can't be stopped. Thank you for your brave work, helping the world understand Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon better
One thing I would like to learn about (maybe you could do a video on it?) is what exactly did Joseph teach as far as the temple ordinances? We are told he administered them in the upper home just before he died. Is that true? If so do we know exactly what ordinances he did? And if any are the ones done in our temples today, what are the similarities or differences are there between those and Brigham's versions we have now?
And since j. Smith is a type of moses (who recieved a higher law/Zion law/melchizedek laws and because of isreal's apostasy it was taken from them and the "lesser law" was given) It makes u wonder if what was taught be j smith in those upper rooms were the higher laws and ordinances and what we have now are the lesser laws (and even altered or changed ordinances via wicked men??)
From my research, the temple ordinances done in Kirtland were different than the ones in Nauvoo. In Kirtland, the washing of feet per Jesus’ example before the last supper, were done. The anointing of oil and a blessing followed. (I believe the anointing was with copious amounts of oil, not like the drop, today. And no script was used for the blessing.) It is my opinion that Brigham Young instituted the rites done in the Nauvoo temple after the Masonic rites. I also believe that B.Y. (along with others) created false statements and documents and attributed them to J.S., and wrote sections 110 & 132, and changed official church history to legitimize and fit his polygamous and temple agendas.
I find it interesting that D&C 121 outlines how the powers of heaven are inseparably connected to righteous intent--unholy and impure practices negate God's stamp of approval. Doesn't matter your important title. President of the church doesn't automatically give you authority: verse 39 "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." Crazy how these men after the martyrdom were frantically trying to change the narrative to fit the new order of things and turned the priesthood into a polygamist kingdom building enterprise, with only Brigham holding the "keys"--as if they can really be held at all. Sad. Thanks for bringing this to light, Rob.
So when we look at Joseph’s journal in the Joseph Smith papers for April 3, 1836, the picture is unreadable. Faded and poor quality photograph. The description clearly states that Joseph wrote that Elijah and Elias had visited he and Oliver in the Kirtland temple on that day in vision. Are we saying that the journal does not actually say that, or that somebody else added those words to his journal at a later date and we can’t determine whose handwriting it is?
All of what Rob says is concerning. I looked into warren cowdery, who supposedly wrote the revelation. What I found was that he moved to Kirkland Feb 1836, and disaffected in 1838. If it really is Warren's handwriting, that would mean it wasn't written after Joseph's death as warren wanted nothing to do with the church. It's also concerning that it's written at the end of Joseph's journal... Where anyone can write anything. Still need some research on this one, but it does have plenty of red flags.
The vision was recorded as a journal entry by Joseph Smith's scribe on April 3, 1836 and Joseph even had the journal entry recorded in the Manuscript History of the Church. Warren Cowdery, who served as the prophet's personal scribe, wrote the journal entry in third person, apparently with Joseph's full approval. Regarding the visit of Elijah, it said this: "After this vision closed, the Heavens were again opened unto them and Moses appeared before them and committed unto them the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the Earth and the leading of the ten tribes from the Land of the North. After this Elias appeared and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying, that in them and their seed all generations after them should be blessed. After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst [bursts] upon them, for Elijah, the Prophet, who was taken to Heaven without tasting death, also stood before them, and said, behold the time has fully come which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying, that he should be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come, to turn the hearts of the Fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse. Therefore, the Keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands, and by this ye may know that the great and the dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors." Warren Cowdery, Joseph's scribe, also recorded how priesthood keys were delivered to Oliver and Joseph. It was later published by Deseret News and the Millennial Star. It was also taught by other leaders prior to its formal inclusion in the D&C. I'm not sure if Joseph didn't preach it publicly because the church wasn't ready to receive it or for some other reason known only to the Lord. But regardless of the reason, it was recorded. (See Doctrine and Covenants Section 110: From Vision to Canonization by Trever Anderson, Brigham Young University - Provo)
Does that mean that the sealing power was never restored then? What about all the sealing we perform for the dead and being sealed to spouses in the lifetime? Will this not count as a valid sealing after our death? I am confused.
Sealing powers are still very much in place. Remember Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied him 3x, Solomon and David were great leaders and prophets but made HUGE mistakes. God continues to work through sinners since that's all he has. It doesn't make his gospel any less valid😇😊👍
Start pulling at these threads of suspicion and doubt and the whole tapestry will eventually fall apart. Be sure that you really want to know the truth, because there are steep consequences to learning it.
So then why were individuals sealed to Joseph Smith? (Before this, I listened to your video "First LDS Polygamist: Joseph or Brigham?" and it's very interesting!)
Great material. This is important to me for a reason not covered in the video. Had Joseph and Oliver claimed that Elias and Elijah had visited, one after the other, that would seriously undermine their credibility. The KJV uses the name Elijah in the Old Testament, and Elias in the New Testament, for the same individual.
Right! I don’t know how this isn’t an obvious smoking gun that this “revelation” is a fake. Once you start adding up all of these suspicious accounts of the Churches restoration and history, it starts to paint a pretty clear picture that the church founders were con artists.
Hello Rob... Thanks for sharing this and for your channel. Some questions have been answered for me, some have been raised. Here are a couple of question and observations: 1. If D&C 110 was manufactured or "forged," because neither the Prophet Joseph, nor Oliver Cowdery referred to this experience afterward - ever - and the coming of Elijah would indeed have been something to exclaim to the membership, wouldn't also the visit of the Lord Himself, proclaiming to Joseph that his sins were forgiven him and that the temple was accepted of the Lord, which was followed by all those keys delivered by the ancient prophets? 2. If there is truly no real as referred to the text of D&C 110, then neither do we have any testimony from Christ that the Kirtland Temple was accepted, or that any other keys from said prophets were delivered at all, correct? If Elijah didn't come and there is no D&C 110, then NONE of this happened, correct?! At the very least, we may have found in Joseph Smith's journal for that day something like, "I am comforted to know that I am clean before the Lord, for He has forgiven my sins!" That would certainly be monumental enough for him to record for posterity, even if for some reason, he felt the Saints were not ready for everything else he had seen.
You raise some good questions. It seems like sometimes legitimate journal entries/revelations were changed subtly, rather than being entirely fabricated (I have a video on polygamy in which I provide some examples of that: th-cam.com/video/F5heXE5xS5w/w-d-xo.html). I was focused on searching for what Joseph taught specifically about Elijah after 1836, not so much on whether there was any truth to the entire revelation. Joseph's journals seem to have been manipulated so frequently that I prefer his publicly recorded teachings and publications as more likely to be trustworthy sources for what he really said and did.
@@robfotheringham2289 Thanks for your response. I had indeed, viewed all of your previous videos only within the last week, having been referred to them by a friend, when I was pleased to get notified of this latest one. While you acknowledge my questions are good ones, I lament that so much of the truth over time has been adulterated. Like you, I will continue to pray and search. Thanks again!
@@robfotheringham2289 don't forget that journals had blank pages and spaces that were used to add things to later also at talked about in The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum: Part One
Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out ninto the wilderness to see? oA reed shaken by the wind? 8 What then did you go out to see? A man2 dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 What then did you go out to see? pA prophet?3 Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is he of whom it is written, q“ ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ 11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 rFrom the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence,4 and the violent take it by force. 13 rFor all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is sElijah who is to come. 15 tHe who has ears to hear,5 let him hear. -Mat. 11:7-15
Rob, thank you for revealing these things and what was actual taught by Joseph Smith. I am not surprised by what you have shared, nor by what others have shared about " bogus" funds. To me it seems to fit with the MO of B. Young. He seems to have fooled men, but he can never fool God. He and they know all things. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting, as are so many comments. But, by their fruits ye shall know them. I have seen too many fruits of the work for the dead to not believe that Elijah hasn't come, not to mention the gathering of Israel. Whether it came as described in DC 110, whether it came when Peter, James and John restored the Melchizedek Priesthood, with all the keys needed (as bestowed on them) or at some other time matters not. Even in DC 128, where it says in verse 21, "the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of DIVERS ANGELS, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!" Seems like all the keys, powers, etc., given a bit at a time. Much of the whole point of 128 is teaching the saints how to keep the records. Why do that if there were no keys or powers to do so? There is no doubt that people have turned their hearts to their fathers and vice versa and seeking to bind His children together on both sides of the veil. There are far too many witnesses to it to deny otherwise.
I have a relative who married twice and had 9 kids from both marriages. Her 2nd marriage was a polygamous one. She left the church. Flash forward 44 yrs later and all those kids, ALL of them but the one son who joined the church, have disowned her. They all want her to divorce the husband who talked her into polygamy and then they'll see her. The other wife left already. It's SAD.
I think Brigham Young had Joseph and his brother assassinated he certainly gained a great deal from it but the more I read about Brigham Young the more I don't like him. I have no proof of such claim it's my opinion
I would love to know if there’s any type of analysis that had been done on the manuscript of the journal entry from which this came from. It’s allegedly in William Cowdery’s handwriting, Oliver’s brother. Is it really though?
Yet, Joseph always spoke of Elijah's return as a future event. The entire practice of family history and vicarious temple work is built on very very suspect information.
I also found in JST Mark 9:4 j Smith translated the visitation of moses and "elias" to "moses and John the Baptist". Which even makes the rest of the chapter (and mathew 17:2-13, Luke 9:29-36) make COMPLETE SENSE. My goodness j. Smith was a prophet! However a couple additional harsh truths is: 1) the JST of these passages makes it clear that a davidic servant will come as a preparer. A type n shadow was given with J. Baptist and Jesus' First ministry. just another scripture to add to the many there are that a davidic servant is true doctrine. 2) that Russ. Nelson mispoke in quite a tragic and monumental way when he stated elijah has come "twice" -"spirit of elijah" October 1994 conference/Nov. ensign 1994 and did so again regarding covid vax's.
110 never said Elijah came. It’s assumed that Elias was/is Elijah. There’s evidence that this revelation did happen and that Elias was none other than Abraham. Who more appropriate to then usher in the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham than Abraham himself? This was a downgrade from the Gospel of Jesus Christ since the church had lost the name of Christ and was now the Church of the Latter Day Saints.
It seems to be ignorance of the Bible to think that Elijah and Elias are two different persons. They are the same person, Elias being the New Testament Greek form of the name of the Old Testament Elijah. edit: I see now that Wasatchintercept has made the same observation below.
D&C 110 “13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious avision burst upon us; for bElijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi-testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come- 15 To aturn the bhearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse- 16 Therefore, the akeys of this bdispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful cday of the Lord is near, even at the doors.”
The number of assumptions needed to justify the conclusion is laughable. The author sets up a false dichotomy at the end asking the viewer to consider the improbability of Joseph having certain experiences and then never telling anyone about it; however, this is not the argument presented. It is one thing to consider Joseph not personally having written of certain experiences and another to say that he never told anyone about it. Is it just luck that Orson and Brigham chose a symbolic Hebrew holy day for the appearance of Elijah? Also, none of Joseph’s remarks placing the language of a future visit by Elijah relative to 1836 prove in the least that Elijah did not appear to bestow keys. When Joseph rolled off the kingdom to the 12, it was complete enough to fulfill its future destiny.
What is curious to me is this idea of restoration. When I look at the whole of mormondom, I see more modification than restoration. I see a leader that preaches from the pulpit one's marriage will be their saving grace. I hear mormon leaders preach to young men their missions will save them and earning them their place in heaven. I hear mormon leaders tell women they are objects and walking pronography. I have heard mormon leaders preach "follow your priesthood leaders to hell, just do not go in". Funny, Christ is the only way. Christ is the only savior of and from sin. The Bible says OUR works will not save us--which is true no matter how much you kick and scream about it. Mormons have temples and their dogma as to the Catholic has their purgatory, Mary, veneration of Saints, and works based salvation just the same. You cannot get your history right let alone your faith. Odd for a restoration based church, wouldn't you say? Very odd indeed.
Your last sentence, about Joseph rolling off the kingdom to the 12, prove that happened. I’ll give you a big hint- it didn’t. Look into the Council of Fifty minutes. You’ve/we’ve been fed many lies.
I very much appreciate the information and presentation of your videos Rob. You've done the research and presented the material. Any chance you could include links to your sources for quotes ect? I believe what you're presenting, but I'd like to be able to see the citations and examine them for myself. Just trying to do my own due diligence.
Rob, In your video, The First LDS Polygamist, around minute 47 you talk about Joseph sealing people to himself. One would assume that this was not possible without Joseph having first received the keys from Elijah to perform this work. We know that the records are incomplete. Example: Where is the record of the actual event of the restoration of Melchizedek Priesthood? Upon considering these things, one would think that the sealing power was restored similar to the Melchizedek Priesthood being restored.
Quote from Rob " Rob Fotheringham 9 months ago I too believe Joseph had the sealing power. I assume it was delivered to him by the voice of God, like Melchizedek (see JST Genesis 14:27-35) and Nephi (Helaman 10:3-11). The JST clarifies that God's greatest priesthood power isn't passed from man-to-man, but rather is received directly from God "which order came, not by man, nor the will of man...but of God...And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice" (see JST Genesis 14:28-29). Page 172 of TPJS, which you mentioned, comes from a talk Joseph gave on October 5th, 1840, over four years after Elijah's supposed visit to the Kirtland temple in 1836, and specifically references Elijah's visit as a future event: "Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness." Three months later Joseph received D&C 124, which reads: "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28) If the fulness of the priesthood was "lost unto you" (which I assume means lost unto the Church, not Joseph), it makes more sense that Elijah had not yet come to deliver "the keys of the authority to administer in all the ordinances of the Priesthood." (see TPJS p. 172) Claiming a visit from Elijah delivered sealing power to both Joseph and Oliver insinuates that the power was given to the Church, bolstering the claim that whoever controls the Church would also control the sealing power. The scriptures seem to indicate that's not how God distributes the sealing power.
The way in which Moroni revealed Malachi 4:5 to Joseph when he visited him in 1823 is instructive. The way Moroni recites the verse it gives the impression that Moroni and the Lord are making a promise to Joseph personally. That the priesthood will be revealed to him (Joseph) by the hand of Elijah. You claim Joseph never taught that Elijah had visited him in the Kirtland temple and therefore Joseph never had the spirit, power, or keys of Elijah. This is not accurate. There is lots of evidence that Joseph held and exercised the sealing power (Colesville Branch, Death of Governor Reynolds). He also clearly taught that Elijah would be the one to reveal that power (TPJS 172). Take these two facts together and you must conclude Joseph was visited By Elijah and given the sealing power. All this other talk about whether he received them in the Kirtland temple or somewhere else is just a distraction meant to confuse. The truth is that the Priesthood was revealed to Joseph by the hand of Elijah.
I too believe Joseph had the sealing power. I assume it was delivered to him by the voice of God, like Melchizedek (see JST Genesis 14:27-35) and Nephi (Helaman 10:3-11). The JST clarifies that God's greatest priesthood power isn't passed from man-to-man, but rather is received directly from God "which order came, not by man, nor the will of man...but of God...And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice" (see JST Genesis 14:28-29). Page 172 of TPJS, which you mentioned, comes from a talk Joseph gave on October 5th, 1840, over four years after Elijah's supposed visit to the Kirtland temple in 1836, and specifically references Elijah's visit as a future event: "Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness." Three months later Joseph received D&C 124, which reads: "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28) If the fulness of the priesthood was "lost unto you" (which I assume means lost unto the Church, not Joseph), it makes more sense that Elijah had not yet come to deliver "the keys of the authority to administer in all the ordinances of the Priesthood." (see TPJS p. 172) Claiming a visit from Elijah delivered sealing power to both Joseph and Oliver insinuates that the power was given to the Church, bolstering the claim that whoever controls the Church would also control the sealing power. The scriptures seem to indicate that's not how God distributes the sealing power. JST Genesis 14: 26-29 "26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire. 27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch, 28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God; 29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name." www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng&ab=v02 Helaman 10:3-11 3 And it came to pass as he was thus pondering-being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities-and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying: 4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments. 5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will. 6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. 7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. 8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done. 9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done. 10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass. 11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/hel/10?lang=eng&ab=v02
@@robfotheringham2289 1. "This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam: and Adam receiving his Presidency and authority from the Lord, but cannot receive a fullness until Christ shall present the Kingdom to the Father, which shall be at the end of the last dispensation." HC 4:209 This quote can be confusing if you don't understand the point Joseph is making. He appears to suggest that Adam had not and would not receive a fullness of Presidency and authority of the Priesthood until the end of this dispensation of the fullness of times. He did hold Presidency and authority from the Lord in his life, but he did not hold a fullness of those things. After Adam delivers all keys to Christ (at AOA) and Christ has delivered them to the Father, the Father will again restore these keys and powers back to the Earth in their fullness. Does this mean Adam holds no priesthood authority until then? No. Does it mean he exercises no priesthood power? No. He holds and exercises the authority that was bestowed upon him. The same is true for Joseph Smith. He received the keys or authority to seal and was authorized to use them. As part of those keys, he was also give the right (when God directs) to bestow that authority on others, just as the Lord had done with Elijah. 2. "These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the holy Prophets be brought to pass?" History of the Church 4:211 This quote suggests that a fullness of Priesthood also means a fullness of priesthood ordinances. Did Joseph have all priesthood ordinances given to him? No. Brigham Young said the ordinance of resurrection was not revealed to Joseph and had not yet been revealed to man. We are told that by the time the great and dreadful day occurs, all these ordinances (including resurrection) will have been fully restored and administered in righteousness. While we do not at the present have all priesthood authority or priesthood power or ordinances, we have already been given priesthood authority to perform many ordinances and give many blessings. The Restoration is ongoing and will not be complete until the end of this last dispensation. 3. To suggest that D&C 124:28 means the Church as a whole lost all of its priesthood authority or the sealing authority is incorrect. I know many people like to cite D&C 84:25 to claim all priesthood authority and power was taken from the Church as it was with the children of Israel after Moses was translated. Joseph taught there were different portions or degrees of priesthood. He then went on to clarify that the portion of priesthood taken away from the children of Israel after Moses was translated was the portion that allowed Moses to speak with God face to face. They still had priesthood authority to baptize, perform temple ordinances, etc. I believe a similar pattern applies in our day. 4. D&C 128:17-18 also helps us understand the quote from TPJS a bit better. Joseph in the quote said ""Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness." In D&C 128:18, Joseph says that then (1842) the dispensation of the fullness of times was "beginning to be ushered in". He also stated that it was during this time (when the dispensation was beginning to be ushered in) that the keys, powers, and glories of all dispensations would be revealed. He is not referring to some yet future time. Now what about this statement about Elijah coming before the last dispensation? Well, if 1842 was when the dispensation of the fullness of times was beginning to usher in", then any time before that would technically be considered prior to the beginning of the last dispensation. So Elijah appearing in 1836 would also make this statement true.
I enjoy your work Rob, but I find this argument that the Elijah visit is false, to be very weak. Even the scripture you quote gives a very big hint that Elijah came.
Nemo is still a member! How can that be? After all so many posts on youtube challinging the history and the authority of the brethern. At the very least stirring the pot with a greasy wooden spoon?
Well done and much needed truth. I think Baptism for the Dead and the King Follet Discourse, both mentioned in the comments, are also topics to be considered as likely being altered or more likely completely made up as well.
Heck the Book of Mormon teaches against baptisms for the dead (see 2 Nephi (LDS 9:26) (RLDS 6:54-55), Mosiah (LDS 3:11) (RLDS 1:107), Mosiah (LDS 15:24) (RLDS 8:58-59), Moroni (LDS 8:22-23) (RLDS 8:25-27). Not to mention that the Book of Mormon teaches us we can not repent after we die (see 2 Nephi (LDS 2:21) (RLDS 1:107-110), Mosiah (LDS 2:33) (RLDS 1:74-75), Mosiah (LDS 15:26-27) (RLDS 8:61-65), Alma (LDS 34:32-35) (RLDS 16:228-234), Alma (LDS 42:13) (RLDS 19:94-95), Alma (LDS 42:28) (RLDS 19:111)). Moroni (LDS 8:22-23) (RLDS 8:25-27) 22 For behold that all little children are ALIVE IN CHRIST, AND ALSO all they that are WITHOUT THE LAW. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such BAPTISM AVAILETH NOTHING- 23 But it is MOCKERY before God, DENYING the MERCIES of CHRIST, and the POWER of his HOLY SPIRIT, and putting trust in DEAD WORKS. Mosiah (LDS 2:33) (RLDS 1:74-75) For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and DIETH IN HIS SINS, THE SAME DRINKETH DAMNATION TO HIS OWN SOUL; for he receiveth for his wages an EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge. /2019/06/09/the-holy-spirit-and-the-holy-ghost-are-the-same/
the "type n shadow" of said Elias. As stated in scripture the first type n shadow Elias/preparer, as prophesied by malachi 3,4 was John the baptists whose ministry took place only 3 years prior to Christ's at his FIRST ministry (A.D. 30-33. cross referencing 3 nephi 20-22 expounding upon the "messenger"/ preparer ( JST mathew 17:12) prophesied in malachi 3,4 there is obviously an END-TIME Elias/preparer/messenger that should come and prepare the way for Christ's SECOND coming (A.D. 2030-2033). the type and shadow would demonstrate that he comes IMMEDIATLY PRECEEDING THREE years before Christ's SECOND coming and has a ministry beginning in the wilderness (revelation12:5-7, matt 3:1). BOTH the first and last Elias are rejected (John by jews, davidic servant by gentiles) and recieve a deadly marring (John beheaded) BUT THE end-time Elias (david) will be "healed" by God (3nephi 21: 9-11, 20:44, . (Which is also juxtaposed by the antichrist recieving a deadly wound but is healed by satan-so DONT be Fooled rev 13:3-4, Ezekiel 30:22-26 ("egypt" is america BTW. -why you ask? Look at the types n shadows) Anyway, so the type and shadow could not have been fulfilled at the time elijah appeared to j Smith in the temple. It wouldn't fit the type. And as christ said all things that have been shall be and there is "NOTHING new (no anomolies) under the sun" (3 nephi 23:3 Ecclesiastes 1:9). Since j. Smith is a type n shadow of Moses one could probably assume that when Moses was in the mount conversing with heavenly beings he recieve keys and restorations n such just as did Smith in their respective mnt of the Lord and that diesnt necessarily mean "Elijah has come". (Dont misunderstand though, the "mnt of the Lord" is figurative for BOTH the temple, a literal mnt serving as a holy place, AND a nation/Kingdom).
He actually talked about the coming of Elijah as a future event. Why would he do that if it happened in 1836? Also, Joseph Smith didn’t write it in his journal. A scribe did and his journals have been doctored.
@@TSommer741 false and false. It's weird that now you claim they were "doctored" and yet the title of your video says that Joseph never mentioned a visit of Elijah. Were you lying then or lying now? Will you retract your false claims in the video? The only honest answer is yes
@@Cameron4077 uh, you realize I’m not the creator of the video, right? It’s not my video. The purpose of this video is quite clear- illustrating the FACT that Joseph never talked about a visit from Elijah from the pulpit, nor did he publish any document in print during his lifetime that it occurred. That’s the point. Was it written in his journal? Yes, by a SCRIBE and in third person. The video admits as much. From 1836-1844, Joseph NEVER said anything publicly about the supposed visit, but DID talk about it as a future event (see the many quotes in the video that prove it). If you’re so confident that he DID talk about it, prove it.
@@TSommer741of course it was written in the third person by Warren Cowdery, the experience didn't happen to him, it happened to Joseph Smith. It was published in his journal and the Journal of History, April 3, 1836 page 435. I go back to my original question why did he have to talk about it? He wasn't under any obligation to do so. Both Elders Orson Pratt and Franklin D. Richards taught about it April 1898 Conference and Journal of Discourses 14:273. Both accounts add to the experience, I wonder how they knew that? hmmmmmmm, what a mystery-I help you out JOSEPH told them
@@Cameron4077 Wow, you're really clueless. First of all, Joseph's journal from 1836 wasn't published in his lifetime. Second, Orson Pratt died in 1881, so he did not speak about it in conference in 1898 (perhaps that was a typo?). Journal of Discourses, 14:273 is Pratt talking but he doesn't refer to Elijah visiting during that talk. Have you read it? Try again. Also, even if he did talk about Elijah visiting at that time, it's a moot point because the story had already been shared from the pulpit in 1852 (at the same time Polygamy was official announced publicly). So Pratt talking about the story almost 20 years later doesn't mean Joseph told him the story. They'd been talking about it in Utah for 20 years! I can't find Franklin D Richards talking about it in the JoD (feel free to point me to a section and page), but please realize he wasn't a general authority until years after Joseph was killed. He didn't join the church until after Kirtland. "Both accounts add to the experience..." yeah... take off the blinders, man! That's highly problematic, not a good sign!
The poster of this video is stretching the truth lot. The vision of Jehovah, Moses Elias and Elijah was recorded in Warren Cowdery's journal not made up by Brigham Young
I agree he rarely did (one exception is the following from DHC 2:261-262), "Many may say that this scripture is fulfilled, but let them mark carefully what the prophet says: 'If any are driven out unto the utmost parts of heaven,' (which must mean the breadth of the earth). Now this promise is good to any, if there should be such, that are driven out, even in the last days, therefore, the children of the fathers have claim unto this day. And if these curses are to be laid over on the heads of their enemies, wo be unto the Gentiles. (See Book of Mormon 3 Nephi, ch. 16, current edition.) 'Wo unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles, saith the Father.' And again (see Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 20:22, current edition, which says), 'Behold this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob, and it shall be a New Jerusalem.' Now we learn from the Book of Mormon the very identical continent and spot of land upon which the New Jerusalem is to stand, and it must be caught up according to the vision of John upon the isle of Patmos. [Page 262] Now many will feel disposed to say, that this New Jerusalem spoken of, is the Jerusalem that was built by the Jews on the eastern continent. But you will see, from Revelation 21:2, there was a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her husband; that after this, the Revelator was caught away in the Spirit, to a great and high mountain, and saw the great and holy city descending out of heaven from God. Now there are two cities spoken of here. As everything cannot be had in so narrow a compass as a letter, I shall say with brevity, that there is a New Jerusalem to be established on this continent, and also Jerusalem shall be rebuilt on the eastern continent (See Book of Mormon, Ether 13:1-12). 'Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come; after it should be destroyed, it should be build up again, a holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it could not be a New Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old.' This may suffice, upon the subject of gathering, until my next." ---------- I think Joseph's propensity to refer to the Bible was influenced by Sidney Rigdon and other ex-Campbellites, who were very Bible-centric, who joined the Church early on. When Parley Pratt and Ziba Peterson went on a mission to the Lamanites in 1830, they they ended up converting Sidney and he ultimately convinced many from his Campbellite congregation to join the Church. Joseph remained sensitive to this throughout his ministry. An example of this can be seen in the King Follett discourse, which Joseph gave in April of 1844, just a few months before his death. Joseph, toward the beginning of the talk, seems to be playfully jabbing Sidney as he used the Bible to back up a point he was trying to make, "What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? I you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible." Later in the same talk Joseph explains that if he doesn't use the Bible to back up his assertions that "many of the over-wise men here...would cry 'treason' and put me to death." "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel-you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here, that they would cry "treason" and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today." That quote can be found in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
@@robfotheringham2289 great answer. I too wonder why the plain doctrine of Christ that is so preeminently taught in the Book of Mormon is so conspicuously absent from Joseph Smith’s teachings (aside from a few often quoted snippets)... What a fascinating history we have!
This seems to blame polygamy on Brigham Young, when in fact Josephs imprisonment and subsequent death was because he had a newspaper burned down which exposed his practice of polygamy.
Correction, the City Council voted to burn the newspaper down. Joseph Smith was against the act, but he had just one vote. Read the City Council records.
I have been watching Rob here and there to take it all in. I am coming to the understanding Mormons do not believe their own scriptures let alone the authenticity and sufficiency of the Bible. So, the authenticity and sufficiency of scripture kind of goes out the window for Mormons. Everyone of his points and the points he makes that go contrary to their own faith proves my point. Cults are this way. Unfortunately no one sees their great and dreadful situation. Folks, Jesus Christ is enough. The Bible is enough which contains his Word and words. The Book of Mormon may well be what it is--and for that I will leave that up to you. But in the end, look at the disaster the Book of Mormon has brought to your church.
Are you kidding did you watch it and his evidence towards the brigamite pollution that has all but destroyed the Holy Restoration that was brought. Read Mormon 8 in the Book of Mormon. He gives a true picture of the corruption in the church. I was a bishop in her for 5.5 years. I saw the inside. I have left and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father who sent HIM. He is the only Way, Truth and Life not this other pollution. Many of the members will continue to worship the brethern. And will ride this cratered out church who has united with the great and abominable whore all the way down to hell.
man i was on a good one. I have no idea how he is wrong. I havnt really looked into tho. I'll tellyou one thing this dude has valid arguments. Why was our history buried? That letter that ratified polygamy afyer Joseph is killed is the smoking gun for me. It's clear as day the edits and the hand. I'm kinda pissed that they hid these things from us for so long. It's funny also that the salt lake temple was literally built on sandstone they lied about the granite the rock upon which it was built. I think they probably did smoke Joseph and hyrum in the fray at Carthage sneaked those guns in probably for that reason. I mean anything possible when the whole thing up to this point has been one big lie. I do however have a testimony of that book and the prophetic mission of one jos3ph smith.. Brigham we could all do without. The book of mormon had its king Noah and I think the latterday saints may have had one too. Think about that story brigham was all giddy when "they" lit the nauvoo temple ablaze. He knew it was his show now and that he could leave Joseph in the wagon wheel dust. The kingdom of God now belonged to him.
Maybe don't shout from the rooftops your disappointment over losing your many concubines. Polygamy was a sin, God never created woman to grow a man's kingdom. Matthew 9 For of these stones I will raise up seed. He doesn't need a whoredom religion to bring up seed. God created then Brigham Young created the lies that there were too many women, not enough men. That wasn't true. My dad's ancestors had to leave that place to marry since the women all wanted to be married to the famous leaders. There was a shortage of women and the polygamist wives had far fewer children than the non. Also, if a man couldn't empregnate his wife, Brigham gave the couple a list and sent the wife to sleep with another man. The entire church was basically an open relationship with spouse swapping. How is that a holy and godly activity? It's GROSS!!!!!
There are 17 million people that need to know this! How does such vital information only have a few thousand views?
Why?!? Because it is a bunch of bull crap! That's why!!! Joseph Smith has an account of that visitation in the Doctrine and Covenants, and if someone else did write it, then he had ample time to correct it before he died!!!
I am a descendent of multiple polygamous family lines, and to know that my grandparents could have enjoyed peace instead of heartbreak is saddening. What has our culture done, how did we not see the lies from the beginning? I do hope that all truth will continue to be made known, even when it's hard. So, thank you Rob for continuing to share.
Mac, this Rob guy is leaving out very important details and teachings from Joseph and other prophets to fit his agenda and throwing in his own reasoning for the guidance they give. If you continue to follow people like him you will be left with no testimony of God, no hope for Christ, and neither root nor branch. the teach8ngs of the brethren are true from Joseph Smith till president Nelson. I personally have been in the presence of some our later day prophets and apostles and they are truly the Lord's servants and His voice for our time. Be ware of false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing.
Joel, what has Rob left out and how exactly is he saying God and Christ do not exist? Rob’s information according to my research has all checked out. Are you afraid of truth?
@@joelchildress7613 Incorrect. I think that all things should be questioned. If it is true it will stand scrutiny. You did not quote anything that he left out. I believe that wilford woodruff taught false doctrine when he said that the president couldn't lead the church astray. Then we have 10 presidents from Joseph onward spouting nonsense and teaching false doctrine about blacks etc. This was allowed to happen apparently because so few were willing to question anything.
seriously Brigham was just a horndog after visiting the Cochranites.
Me too 💔🥺
You truly are doing amazing work here in revealing the truth. It’s amazing how much more the gospel makes sense, when you are willing to acknowledge what has been going on within the Church since the death of Joseph and Hyrum. I only wish I could freely share this entire channel to others without being stoned. In the meantime, I’ll just continue to look for people with open hearts and minds that truly wish to follow Christ, rather than a church.
I don’t know about you but the separation of the wheat and tares is not going like I had thought....wow. Blind tares everywhere in the church.
@@Kunta1926 yep. Indeed they grew up together and can be pretty indistinguishable until the great dividing force of truth comes...
I've said this before, if you don't have to protect "everything after Joseph" in order for the Book of Mormon to be true (as we have been told our whole lives, "IF the Book of Mormon is true, then it is ALL true, there is no other option", you come to a very eye-opening place.
@@noctissky794 Exactly... it’s a damaging lie that’s caused many good people’s entire shelves to break completely...
I’m so sad that our sweet innocent Prophet Joseph is being slandered so cruelly by his own.
I find it interesting in reading in Matthew 17 when Elias and Moses appeared to the Savior and the disciples, Jesus asked them not to mention it to anyone until after he was resurrected. Isn’t it interesting that the same thing kind of occurred with Joseph and Oliver, this was never mentioned until after their deaths. Do we then question whether or not Moses and Elias appeared to the savior?
Lies are being exposed. Truth about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon has been buried for nearly 200 years. But God's plans for the Book of Mormon can't be stopped. Thank you for your brave work, helping the world understand Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon better
One thing I would like to learn about (maybe you could do a video on it?) is what exactly did Joseph teach as far as the temple ordinances? We are told he administered them in the upper home just before he died. Is that true? If so do we know exactly what ordinances he did? And if any are the ones done in our temples today, what are the similarities or differences are there between those and Brigham's versions we have now?
And since j. Smith is a type of moses (who recieved a higher law/Zion law/melchizedek laws and because of isreal's apostasy it was taken from them and the "lesser law" was given)
It makes u wonder if what was taught be j smith in those upper rooms were the higher laws and ordinances and what we have now are the lesser laws (and even altered or changed ordinances via wicked men??)
From my research, the temple ordinances done in Kirtland were different than the ones in Nauvoo. In Kirtland, the washing of feet per Jesus’ example before the last supper, were done. The anointing of oil and a blessing followed. (I believe the anointing was with copious amounts of oil, not like the drop, today. And no script was used for the blessing.) It is my opinion that Brigham Young instituted the rites done in the Nauvoo temple after the Masonic rites. I also believe that B.Y. (along with others) created false statements and documents and attributed them to J.S., and wrote sections 110 & 132, and changed official church history to legitimize and fit his polygamous and temple agendas.
I would be interested to know this also.
@@morjulies hey! Eben here😊
@@ekh1821 hey Eben!!! So fun to cross paths on TH-cam!
I find it interesting that D&C 121 outlines how the powers of heaven are inseparably connected to righteous intent--unholy and impure practices negate God's stamp of approval. Doesn't matter your important title. President of the church doesn't automatically give you authority: verse 39 "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." Crazy how these men after the martyrdom were frantically trying to change the narrative to fit the new order of things and turned the priesthood into a polygamist kingdom building enterprise, with only Brigham holding the "keys"--as if they can really be held at all. Sad. Thanks for bringing this to light, Rob.
Funny how you never mentioned the entry in JS's journal in the handwriting of Warren Cowdery.
So when we look at Joseph’s journal in the Joseph Smith papers for April 3, 1836, the picture is unreadable. Faded and poor quality photograph. The description clearly states that Joseph wrote that Elijah and Elias had visited he and Oliver in the Kirtland temple on that day in vision. Are we saying that the journal does not actually say that, or that somebody else added those words to his journal at a later date and we can’t determine whose handwriting it is?
He was also visited by Cassius Clay AND Muhammed Ali
All of what Rob says is concerning. I looked into warren cowdery, who supposedly wrote the revelation. What I found was that he moved to Kirkland Feb 1836, and disaffected in 1838. If it really is Warren's handwriting, that would mean it wasn't written after Joseph's death as warren wanted nothing to do with the church. It's also concerning that it's written at the end of Joseph's journal... Where anyone can write anything. Still need some research on this one, but it does have plenty of red flags.
The vision was recorded as a journal entry by Joseph Smith's scribe on April 3, 1836 and Joseph even had the journal entry recorded in the Manuscript History of the Church. Warren Cowdery, who served as the prophet's personal scribe, wrote the journal entry in third person, apparently with Joseph's full approval. Regarding the visit of Elijah, it said this:
"After this vision closed, the Heavens were again opened unto them and Moses appeared before them and committed unto them the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the Earth and the leading of the ten tribes from the Land of the North. After this Elias appeared and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying, that in them and their seed all generations after them should be blessed. After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst [bursts] upon them, for Elijah, the Prophet, who was taken to Heaven without tasting death, also stood before them, and said, behold the time has fully come which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying, that he should be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come, to turn the hearts of the Fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse. Therefore, the Keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands, and by this ye may know that the great and the dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors."
Warren Cowdery, Joseph's scribe, also recorded how priesthood keys were delivered to Oliver and Joseph. It was later published by Deseret News and the Millennial Star. It was also taught by other leaders prior to its formal inclusion in the D&C. I'm not sure if Joseph didn't preach it publicly because the church wasn't ready to receive it or for some other reason known only to the Lord. But regardless of the reason, it was recorded. (See Doctrine and Covenants Section 110: From Vision to Canonization by Trever Anderson, Brigham Young University - Provo)
Does that mean that the sealing power was never restored then? What about all the sealing we perform for the dead and being sealed to spouses in the lifetime? Will this not count as a valid sealing after our death? I am confused.
Sealing powers are still very much in place. Remember Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied him 3x, Solomon and David were great leaders and prophets but made HUGE mistakes. God continues to work through sinners since that's all he has. It doesn't make his gospel any less valid😇😊👍
Start pulling at these threads of suspicion and doubt and the whole tapestry will eventually fall apart. Be sure that you really want to know the truth, because there are steep consequences to learning it.
thanks for the video and heads up, will look into this more as I get time
So then why were individuals sealed to Joseph Smith? (Before this, I listened to your video "First LDS Polygamist: Joseph or Brigham?" and it's very interesting!)
The Law of Adoption
Great material. This is important to me for a reason not covered in the video. Had Joseph and Oliver claimed that Elias and Elijah had visited, one after the other, that would seriously undermine their credibility. The KJV uses the name Elijah in the Old Testament, and Elias in the New Testament, for the same individual.
Right! I don’t know how this isn’t an obvious smoking gun that this “revelation” is a fake. Once you start adding up all of these suspicious accounts of the Churches restoration and history, it starts to paint a pretty clear picture that the church founders were con artists.
Hello Rob...
Thanks for sharing this and for your channel. Some questions have been answered for me, some have been raised. Here are a couple of question and observations:
1. If D&C 110 was manufactured or "forged," because neither the Prophet Joseph, nor Oliver Cowdery referred to this experience afterward - ever - and the coming of Elijah would indeed have been something to exclaim to the membership, wouldn't also the visit of the Lord Himself, proclaiming to Joseph that his sins were forgiven him and that the temple was accepted of the Lord, which was followed by all those keys delivered by the ancient prophets?
2. If there is truly no real as referred to the text of D&C 110, then neither do we have any testimony from Christ that the Kirtland Temple was accepted, or that any other keys from said prophets were delivered at all, correct? If Elijah didn't come and there is no D&C 110, then NONE of this happened, correct?!
At the very least, we may have found in Joseph Smith's journal for that day something like, "I am comforted to know that I am clean before the Lord, for He has forgiven my sins!" That would certainly be monumental enough for him to record for posterity, even if for some reason, he felt the Saints were not ready for everything else he had seen.
You raise some good questions. It seems like sometimes legitimate journal entries/revelations were changed subtly, rather than being entirely fabricated (I have a video on polygamy in which I provide some examples of that: th-cam.com/video/F5heXE5xS5w/w-d-xo.html). I was focused on searching for what Joseph taught specifically about Elijah after 1836, not so much on whether there was any truth to the entire revelation. Joseph's journals seem to have been manipulated so frequently that I prefer his publicly recorded teachings and publications as more likely to be trustworthy sources for what he really said and did.
The wording for question #2 should actually be, "If there is truly no *revelation* as referred to in the text..."
@@robfotheringham2289 Thanks for your response. I had indeed, viewed all of your previous videos only within the last week, having been referred to them by a friend, when I was pleased to get notified of this latest one. While you acknowledge my questions are good ones, I lament that so much of the truth over time has been adulterated. Like you, I will continue to pray and search. Thanks again!
@@robfotheringham2289 don't forget that journals had blank pages and spaces that were used to add things to later also at talked about in The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum: Part One
Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out ninto the wilderness to see? oA reed shaken by the wind? 8 What then did you go out to see? A man2 dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 What then did you go out to see? pA prophet?3 Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is he of whom it is written,
q“ ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’
11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 rFrom the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence,4 and the violent take it by force. 13 rFor all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is sElijah who is to come. 15 tHe who has ears to hear,5 let him hear. -Mat. 11:7-15
Great videos.
Rob, thank you for revealing these things and what was actual taught by Joseph Smith. I am not surprised by what you have shared, nor by what others have shared about " bogus" funds. To me it seems to fit with the MO of B. Young. He seems to have fooled men, but he can never fool God. He and they know all things. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting, as are so many comments. But, by their fruits ye shall know them. I have seen too many fruits of the work for the dead to not believe that Elijah hasn't come, not to mention the gathering of Israel. Whether it came as described in DC 110, whether it came when Peter, James and John restored the Melchizedek Priesthood, with all the keys needed (as bestowed on them) or at some other time matters not. Even in DC 128, where it says in verse 21, "the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of DIVERS ANGELS, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!" Seems like all the keys, powers, etc., given a bit at a time. Much of the whole point of 128 is teaching the saints how to keep the records. Why do that if there were no keys or powers to do so? There is no doubt that people have turned their hearts to their fathers and vice versa and seeking to bind His children together on both sides of the veil. There are far too many witnesses to it to deny otherwise.
So, you say that eternal families sealed in the temple is an invention ?
I have a relative who married twice and had 9 kids from both marriages. Her 2nd marriage was a polygamous one. She left the church. Flash forward 44 yrs later and all those kids, ALL of them but the one son who joined the church, have disowned her. They all want her to divorce the husband who talked her into polygamy and then they'll see her. The other wife left already.
It's SAD.
I think Brigham Young had Joseph and his brother assassinated he certainly gained a great deal from it but the more I read about Brigham Young the more I don't like him. I have no proof of such claim it's my opinion
I would love to know if there’s any type of analysis that had been done on the manuscript of the journal entry from which this came from. It’s allegedly in William Cowdery’s handwriting, Oliver’s brother. Is it really though?
Crimes against women.
The bible never says Elijah will only come once.
Also the Kirtland temple was extremely important to build.
It seems like the reason why is 110.
Yet, Joseph always spoke of Elijah's return as a future event. The entire practice of family history and vicarious temple work is built on very very suspect information.
I also found in JST Mark 9:4 j Smith translated the visitation of moses and "elias" to "moses and John the Baptist". Which even makes the rest of the chapter (and mathew 17:2-13, Luke 9:29-36) make COMPLETE SENSE. My goodness j. Smith was a prophet! However a couple additional harsh truths is:
1) the JST of these passages makes it clear that a davidic servant will come as a preparer. A type n shadow was given with J. Baptist and Jesus' First ministry. just another scripture to add to the many there are that a davidic servant is true doctrine.
2) that Russ. Nelson mispoke in quite a tragic and monumental way when he stated elijah has come "twice" -"spirit of elijah" October 1994 conference/Nov. ensign 1994 and did so again regarding covid vax's.
With the Covid vax... saying it was a Godsend? Would you please explain what you mean.
110 never said Elijah came. It’s assumed that Elias was/is Elijah. There’s evidence that this revelation did happen and that Elias was none other than Abraham. Who more appropriate to then usher in the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham than Abraham himself? This was a downgrade from the Gospel of Jesus Christ since the church had lost the name of Christ and was now the Church of the Latter Day Saints.
Than Joseph would have said Abraham!
It seems to be ignorance of the Bible to think that Elijah and Elias are two different persons. They are the same person, Elias being the New Testament Greek form of the name of the Old Testament Elijah. edit: I see now that Wasatchintercept has made the same observation below.
D&C 110 “13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious avision burst upon us; for bElijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi-testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come-
15 To aturn the bhearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse-
16 Therefore, the akeys of this bdispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful cday of the Lord is near, even at the doors.”
The number of assumptions needed to justify the conclusion is laughable. The author sets up a false dichotomy at the end asking the viewer to consider the improbability of Joseph having certain experiences and then never telling anyone about it; however, this is not the argument presented. It is one thing to consider Joseph not personally having written of certain experiences and another to say that he never told anyone about it. Is it just luck that Orson and Brigham chose a symbolic Hebrew holy day for the appearance of Elijah? Also, none of Joseph’s remarks placing the language of a future visit by Elijah relative to 1836 prove in the least that Elijah did not appear to bestow keys. When Joseph rolled off the kingdom to the 12, it was complete enough to fulfill its future destiny.
What is curious to me is this idea of restoration. When I look at the whole of mormondom, I see more modification than restoration. I see a leader that preaches from the pulpit one's marriage will be their saving grace. I hear mormon leaders preach to young men their missions will save them and earning them their place in heaven. I hear mormon leaders tell women they are objects and walking pronography. I have heard mormon leaders preach "follow your priesthood leaders to hell, just do not go in". Funny, Christ is the only way. Christ is the only savior of and from sin. The Bible says OUR works will not save us--which is true no matter how much you kick and scream about it. Mormons have temples and their dogma as to the Catholic has their purgatory, Mary, veneration of Saints, and works based salvation just the same. You cannot get your history right let alone your faith. Odd for a restoration based church, wouldn't you say? Very odd indeed.
Your last sentence, about Joseph rolling off the kingdom to the 12, prove that happened. I’ll give you a big hint- it didn’t. Look into the Council of Fifty minutes. You’ve/we’ve been fed many lies.
I very much appreciate the information and presentation of your videos Rob. You've done the research and presented the material. Any chance you could include links to your sources for quotes ect? I believe what you're presenting, but I'd like to be able to see the citations and examine them for myself. Just trying to do my own due diligence.
Rob, In your video, The First LDS Polygamist, around minute 47 you talk about Joseph sealing people to himself. One would assume that this was not possible without Joseph having first received the keys from Elijah to perform this work. We know that the records are incomplete. Example: Where is the record of the actual event of the restoration of Melchizedek Priesthood? Upon considering these things, one would think that the sealing power was restored similar to the Melchizedek Priesthood being restored.
My question exactly!
Quote from Rob "
Rob Fotheringham
9 months ago
I too believe Joseph had the sealing power. I assume it was delivered to him by the voice of God, like Melchizedek (see JST Genesis 14:27-35) and Nephi (Helaman 10:3-11). The JST clarifies that God's greatest priesthood power isn't passed from man-to-man, but rather is received directly from God "which order came, not by man, nor the will of man...but of God...And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice" (see JST Genesis 14:28-29). Page 172 of TPJS, which you mentioned, comes from a talk Joseph gave on October 5th, 1840, over four years after Elijah's supposed visit to the Kirtland temple in 1836, and specifically references Elijah's visit as a future event: "Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness."
Three months later Joseph received D&C 124, which reads: "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28) If the fulness of the priesthood was "lost unto you" (which I assume means lost unto the Church, not Joseph), it makes more sense that Elijah had not yet come to deliver "the keys of the authority to administer in all the ordinances of the Priesthood." (see TPJS p. 172)
Claiming a visit from Elijah delivered sealing power to both Joseph and Oliver insinuates that the power was given to the Church, bolstering the claim that whoever controls the Church would also control the sealing power. The scriptures seem to indicate that's not how God distributes the sealing power.
Joseph held the sealing power as a dispensation head. No one can be adopted into the family of God unless they are sealed to a dispensation father.
The way in which Moroni revealed Malachi 4:5 to Joseph when he visited him in 1823 is instructive. The way Moroni recites the verse it gives the impression that Moroni and the Lord are making a promise to Joseph personally. That the priesthood will be revealed to him (Joseph) by the hand of Elijah.
You claim Joseph never taught that Elijah had visited him in the Kirtland temple and therefore Joseph never had the spirit, power, or keys of Elijah. This is not accurate.
There is lots of evidence that Joseph held and exercised the sealing power (Colesville Branch, Death of Governor Reynolds). He also clearly taught that Elijah would be the one to reveal that power (TPJS 172). Take these two facts together and you must conclude Joseph was visited By Elijah and given the sealing power.
All this other talk about whether he received them in the Kirtland temple or somewhere else is just a distraction meant to confuse. The truth is that the Priesthood was revealed to Joseph by the hand of Elijah.
I guess the main argument is why was this miraculous vision not recorded anywhere by anyone and only announced years later?
I too believe Joseph had the sealing power. I assume it was delivered to him by the voice of God, like Melchizedek (see JST Genesis 14:27-35) and Nephi (Helaman 10:3-11). The JST clarifies that God's greatest priesthood power isn't passed from man-to-man, but rather is received directly from God "which order came, not by man, nor the will of man...but of God...And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice" (see JST Genesis 14:28-29). Page 172 of TPJS, which you mentioned, comes from a talk Joseph gave on October 5th, 1840, over four years after Elijah's supposed visit to the Kirtland temple in 1836, and specifically references Elijah's visit as a future event: "Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness."
Three months later Joseph received D&C 124, which reads: "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28) If the fulness of the priesthood was "lost unto you" (which I assume means lost unto the Church, not Joseph), it makes more sense that Elijah had not yet come to deliver "the keys of the authority to administer in all the ordinances of the Priesthood." (see TPJS p. 172)
Claiming a visit from Elijah delivered sealing power to both Joseph and Oliver insinuates that the power was given to the Church, bolstering the claim that whoever controls the Church would also control the sealing power. The scriptures seem to indicate that's not how God distributes the sealing power.
JST Genesis 14: 26-29
"26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name."
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng&ab=v02
Helaman 10:3-11
3 And it came to pass as he was thus pondering-being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities-and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:
4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.
9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.
10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.
11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/hel/10?lang=eng&ab=v02
@@robfotheringham2289 1. "This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam: and Adam receiving his Presidency and authority from the Lord, but cannot receive a fullness until Christ shall present the Kingdom to the Father, which shall be at the end of the last dispensation." HC 4:209 This quote can be confusing if you don't understand the point Joseph is making. He appears to suggest that Adam had not and would not receive a fullness of Presidency and authority of the Priesthood until the end of this dispensation of the fullness of times. He did hold Presidency and authority from the Lord in his life, but he did not hold a fullness of those things. After Adam delivers all keys to Christ (at AOA) and Christ has delivered them to the Father, the Father will again restore these keys and powers back to the Earth in their fullness. Does this mean Adam holds no priesthood authority until then? No. Does it mean he exercises no priesthood power? No. He holds and exercises the authority that was bestowed upon him. The same is true for Joseph Smith. He received the keys or authority to seal and was authorized to use them. As part of those keys, he was also give the right (when God directs) to bestow that authority on others, just as the Lord had done with Elijah. 2. "These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the holy Prophets be brought to pass?" History of the Church 4:211 This quote suggests that a fullness of Priesthood also means a fullness of priesthood ordinances. Did Joseph have all priesthood ordinances given to him? No. Brigham Young said the ordinance of resurrection was not revealed to Joseph and had not yet been revealed to man. We are told that by the time the great and dreadful day occurs, all these ordinances (including resurrection) will have been fully restored and administered in righteousness. While we do not at the present have all priesthood authority or priesthood power or ordinances, we have already been given priesthood authority to perform many ordinances and give many blessings. The Restoration is ongoing and will not be complete until the end of this last dispensation. 3. To suggest that D&C 124:28 means the Church as a whole lost all of its priesthood authority or the sealing authority is incorrect. I know many people like to cite D&C 84:25 to claim all priesthood authority and power was taken from the Church as it was with the children of Israel after Moses was translated. Joseph taught there were different portions or degrees of priesthood. He then went on to clarify that the portion of priesthood taken away from the children of Israel after Moses was translated was the portion that allowed Moses to speak with God face to face. They still had priesthood authority to baptize, perform temple ordinances, etc. I believe a similar pattern applies in our day. 4. D&C 128:17-18 also helps us understand the quote from TPJS a bit better. Joseph in the quote said ""Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness." In D&C 128:18, Joseph says that then (1842) the dispensation of the fullness of times was "beginning to be ushered in". He also stated that it was during this time (when the dispensation was beginning to be ushered in) that the keys, powers, and glories of all dispensations would be revealed. He is not referring to some yet future time. Now what about this statement about Elijah coming before the last dispensation? Well, if 1842 was when the dispensation of the fullness of times was beginning to usher in", then any time before that would technically be considered prior to the beginning of the last dispensation. So Elijah appearing in 1836 would also make this statement true.
I enjoy your work Rob, but I find this argument that the Elijah visit is false, to be very weak. Even the scripture you quote gives a very big hint that Elijah came.
What’s in your argument that he came?
Wow I did not know 110 was added so late.
110 seems authentic.
I dont see it related to plural marriage at all.
Nemo is still a member! How can that be? After all so many posts on youtube challinging the history and the authority of the brethern. At the very least stirring the pot with a greasy wooden spoon?
Well done and much needed truth. I think Baptism for the Dead and the King Follet Discourse, both mentioned in the comments, are also topics to be considered as likely being altered or more likely completely made up as well.
Heck the Book of Mormon teaches against baptisms for the dead (see 2 Nephi (LDS 9:26) (RLDS 6:54-55), Mosiah (LDS 3:11) (RLDS 1:107), Mosiah (LDS 15:24) (RLDS 8:58-59), Moroni (LDS 8:22-23) (RLDS 8:25-27). Not to mention that the Book of Mormon teaches us we can not repent after we die (see 2 Nephi (LDS 2:21) (RLDS 1:107-110), Mosiah (LDS 2:33) (RLDS 1:74-75), Mosiah (LDS 15:26-27) (RLDS 8:61-65), Alma (LDS 34:32-35) (RLDS 16:228-234), Alma (LDS 42:13) (RLDS 19:94-95), Alma (LDS 42:28) (RLDS 19:111)).
Moroni (LDS 8:22-23) (RLDS 8:25-27)
22 For behold that all little children are ALIVE IN CHRIST, AND ALSO all they that are WITHOUT THE LAW. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such BAPTISM AVAILETH NOTHING- 23 But it is MOCKERY before God, DENYING the MERCIES of CHRIST, and the POWER of his HOLY SPIRIT, and putting trust in DEAD WORKS.
Mosiah (LDS 2:33) (RLDS 1:74-75) For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and DIETH IN HIS SINS, THE SAME DRINKETH DAMNATION TO HIS OWN SOUL; for he receiveth for his wages an EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.
/2019/06/09/the-holy-spirit-and-the-holy-ghost-are-the-same/
I don’t know how they could have recorded the entire sermon in so much detail as long as it is.
the "type n shadow" of said Elias. As stated in scripture the first type n shadow Elias/preparer, as prophesied by malachi 3,4 was John the baptists whose ministry took place only 3 years prior to Christ's at his FIRST ministry (A.D. 30-33. cross referencing 3 nephi 20-22 expounding upon the "messenger"/ preparer ( JST mathew 17:12) prophesied in malachi 3,4 there is obviously an END-TIME Elias/preparer/messenger that should come and prepare the way for Christ's SECOND coming (A.D. 2030-2033). the type and shadow would demonstrate that he comes IMMEDIATLY PRECEEDING THREE years before Christ's SECOND coming and has a ministry beginning in the wilderness (revelation12:5-7, matt 3:1). BOTH the first and last Elias are rejected (John by jews, davidic servant by gentiles) and recieve a deadly marring (John beheaded) BUT THE end-time Elias (david) will be "healed" by God (3nephi 21: 9-11, 20:44, . (Which is also juxtaposed by the antichrist recieving a deadly wound but is healed by satan-so DONT be Fooled rev 13:3-4, Ezekiel 30:22-26 ("egypt" is america BTW. -why you ask? Look at the types n shadows)
Anyway, so the type and shadow could not have been fulfilled at the time elijah appeared to j Smith in the temple. It wouldn't fit the type. And as christ said all things that have been shall be and there is "NOTHING new (no anomolies) under the sun" (3 nephi 23:3
Ecclesiastes 1:9).
Since j. Smith is a type n shadow of Moses one could probably assume that when Moses was in the mount conversing with heavenly beings he recieve keys and restorations n such just as did Smith in their respective mnt of the Lord and that diesnt necessarily mean "Elijah has come". (Dont misunderstand though, the "mnt of the Lord" is figurative for BOTH the temple, a literal mnt serving as a holy place, AND a nation/Kingdom).
who wrote section 110? was this another Brigham rewrite?
In the JST I find that John the Baptist was Elijah. They were the same person.
Why would he need to? he wrote about in his 1835-1836 journal, which is where section 110 comes from. You assume he has to talk about it, why?
He actually talked about the coming of Elijah as a future event. Why would he do that if it happened in 1836? Also, Joseph Smith didn’t write it in his journal. A scribe did and his journals have been doctored.
@@TSommer741 false and false. It's weird that now you claim they were "doctored" and yet the title of your video says that Joseph never mentioned a visit of Elijah. Were you lying then or lying now? Will you retract your false claims in the video? The only honest answer is yes
@@Cameron4077 uh, you realize I’m not the creator of the video, right? It’s not my video. The purpose of this video is quite clear- illustrating the FACT that Joseph never talked about a visit from Elijah from the pulpit, nor did he publish any document in print during his lifetime that it occurred. That’s the point. Was it written in his journal? Yes, by a SCRIBE and in third person. The video admits as much. From 1836-1844, Joseph NEVER said anything publicly about the supposed visit, but DID talk about it as a future event (see the many quotes in the video that prove it). If you’re so confident that he DID talk about it, prove it.
@@TSommer741of course it was written in the third person by Warren Cowdery, the experience didn't happen to him, it happened to Joseph Smith. It was published in his journal and the Journal of History, April 3, 1836 page 435. I go back to my original question why did he have to talk about it? He wasn't under any obligation to do so. Both Elders Orson Pratt and Franklin D. Richards taught about it April 1898 Conference and Journal of Discourses 14:273. Both accounts add to the experience, I wonder how they knew that? hmmmmmmm, what a mystery-I help you out JOSEPH told them
@@Cameron4077 Wow, you're really clueless. First of all, Joseph's journal from 1836 wasn't published in his lifetime. Second, Orson Pratt died in 1881, so he did not speak about it in conference in 1898 (perhaps that was a typo?). Journal of Discourses, 14:273 is Pratt talking but he doesn't refer to Elijah visiting during that talk. Have you read it? Try again. Also, even if he did talk about Elijah visiting at that time, it's a moot point because the story had already been shared from the pulpit in 1852 (at the same time Polygamy was official announced publicly). So Pratt talking about the story almost 20 years later doesn't mean Joseph told him the story. They'd been talking about it in Utah for 20 years! I can't find Franklin D Richards talking about it in the JoD (feel free to point me to a section and page), but please realize he wasn't a general authority until years after Joseph was killed. He didn't join the church until after Kirtland. "Both accounts add to the experience..." yeah... take off the blinders, man! That's highly problematic, not a good sign!
The poster of this video is stretching the truth lot. The vision of Jehovah, Moses Elias and Elijah was recorded in Warren Cowdery's journal not made up by Brigham Young
Question: Did either J.S. Jr. or Oliver C teach that the Savior visited them in the Kirtland temple? I.e. v 1-10?
No. They never mentioned this event at all,
Nay. At least it’s not known currently when and where they did
Why do you think Joseph never preached from the Book of Mormon?
I agree he rarely did (one exception is the following from DHC 2:261-262),
"Many may say that this scripture is fulfilled, but let them mark carefully what the prophet says: 'If any are driven out unto the utmost parts of heaven,' (which must mean the breadth of the earth). Now this promise is good to any, if there should be such, that are driven out, even in the last days, therefore, the children of the fathers have claim unto this day. And if these curses are to be laid over on the heads of their enemies, wo be unto the Gentiles. (See Book of Mormon 3 Nephi, ch. 16, current edition.) 'Wo unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles, saith the Father.' And again (see Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 20:22, current edition, which says), 'Behold this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob, and it shall be a New Jerusalem.' Now we learn from the Book of Mormon the very identical continent and spot of land upon which the New Jerusalem is to stand, and it must be caught up according to the vision of John upon the isle of Patmos.
[Page 262]
Now many will feel disposed to say, that this New Jerusalem spoken of, is the Jerusalem that was built by the Jews on the eastern continent. But you will see, from Revelation 21:2, there was a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her husband; that after this, the Revelator was caught away in the Spirit, to a great and high mountain, and saw the great and holy city descending out of heaven from God. Now there are two cities spoken of here. As everything cannot be had in so narrow a compass as a letter, I shall say with brevity, that there is a New Jerusalem to be established on this continent, and also Jerusalem shall be rebuilt on the eastern continent (See Book of Mormon, Ether 13:1-12). 'Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come; after it should be destroyed, it should be build up again, a holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it could not be a New Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old.' This may suffice, upon the subject of gathering, until my next."
----------
I think Joseph's propensity to refer to the Bible was influenced by Sidney Rigdon and other ex-Campbellites, who were very Bible-centric, who joined the Church early on. When Parley Pratt and Ziba Peterson went on a mission to the Lamanites in 1830, they they ended up converting Sidney and he ultimately convinced many from his Campbellite congregation to join the Church. Joseph remained sensitive to this throughout his ministry. An example of this can be seen in the King Follett discourse, which Joseph gave in April of 1844, just a few months before his death. Joseph, toward the beginning of the talk, seems to be playfully jabbing Sidney as he used the Bible to back up a point he was trying to make,
"What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? I you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible."
Later in the same talk Joseph explains that if he doesn't use the Bible to back up his assertions that "many of the over-wise men here...would cry 'treason' and put me to death."
"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel-you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here, that they would cry "treason" and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today." That quote can be found in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
@@robfotheringham2289 great answer. I too wonder why the plain doctrine of Christ that is so preeminently taught in the Book of Mormon is so conspicuously absent from Joseph Smith’s teachings (aside from a few often quoted snippets)... What a fascinating history we have!
@@cab9191 maybe he was sad about the condemnation to come and couldn’t get over 2 Nephi 28? So he primarily focused on continuing revelations?
Who ìs RAFAEL?
And Elijah never mentioned polygamy in that visit
This seems to blame polygamy on Brigham Young, when in fact Josephs imprisonment and subsequent death was because he had a newspaper burned down which exposed his practice of polygamy.
Correction, the City Council voted to burn the newspaper down. Joseph Smith was against the act, but he had just one vote. Read the City Council records.
I have been watching Rob here and there to take it all in. I am coming to the understanding Mormons do not believe their own scriptures let alone the authenticity and sufficiency of the Bible. So, the authenticity and sufficiency of scripture kind of goes out the window for Mormons. Everyone of his points and the points he makes that go contrary to their own faith proves my point. Cults are this way. Unfortunately no one sees their great and dreadful situation. Folks, Jesus Christ is enough. The Bible is enough which contains his Word and words. The Book of Mormon may well be what it is--and for that I will leave that up to you. But in the end, look at the disaster the Book of Mormon has brought to your church.
Amen.
Yes he did! It was in his personal journal
Where in the Joseph smith papers can we find it?
So u dress like a bishop and denounce the church? Lol what is this fresh hell ive stumbled upon.
I totally agree, the Savior told us beware of false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing.
If he is wrong then please let us know how so we can all be edified.
Are you kidding did you watch it and his evidence towards the brigamite pollution that has all but destroyed the Holy Restoration that was brought. Read Mormon 8 in the Book of Mormon. He gives a true picture of the corruption in the church. I was a bishop in her for 5.5 years. I saw the inside. I have left and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father who sent HIM. He is the only Way, Truth and Life not this other pollution. Many of the members will continue to worship the brethern. And will ride this cratered out church who has united with the great and abominable whore all the way down to hell.
man i was on a good one. I have no idea how he is wrong. I havnt really looked into tho. I'll tellyou one thing this dude has valid arguments. Why was our history buried? That letter that ratified polygamy afyer Joseph is killed is the smoking gun for me. It's clear as day the edits and the hand. I'm kinda pissed that they hid these things from us for so long. It's funny also that the salt lake temple was literally built on sandstone they lied about the granite the rock upon which it was built. I think they probably did smoke Joseph and hyrum in the fray at Carthage sneaked those guns in probably for that reason. I mean anything possible when the whole thing up to this point has been one big lie. I do however have a testimony of that book and the prophetic mission of one jos3ph smith.. Brigham we could all do without. The book of mormon had its king Noah and I think the latterday saints may have had one too. Think about that story brigham was all giddy when "they" lit the nauvoo temple ablaze. He knew it was his show now and that he could leave Joseph in the wagon wheel dust. The kingdom of God now belonged to him.
Maybe don't shout from the rooftops your disappointment over losing your many concubines. Polygamy was a sin, God never created woman to grow a man's kingdom. Matthew 9 For of these stones I will raise up seed. He doesn't need a whoredom religion to bring up seed. God created then Brigham Young created the lies that there were too many women, not enough men. That wasn't true. My dad's ancestors had to leave that place to marry since the women all wanted to be married to the famous leaders. There was a shortage of women and the polygamist wives had far fewer children than the non. Also, if a man couldn't empregnate his wife, Brigham gave the couple a list and sent the wife to sleep with another man. The entire church was basically an open relationship with spouse swapping. How is that a holy and godly activity? It's GROSS!!!!!
You are deceived
Care to elaborate or just here to throw a stone?