MMO Design: Theme Park or Sandbox?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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MMORPG design can be broadly broken down into 2 archetypes:
Theme park: Specific areas of specific experiences built by the designers with self contained mechanics, player cannot affect the world in general. High quality experiences contained by limitation.
Sandbox: General mechanics available all over the world with player controlled systems, the world can be actively affected by player choices. Variable quality systems not contained by limitations.
Both useful, both attract a certain demographic, but theme park is objectively more popular currently.
Thanks for the Patreon and twitch support you beautiful people.
I propose a third category: date dungeon
clearly, an under-appreciated genre
The FBI would love to look at these
@@finallychangedmyname3614 Some form of watchlist at the very least.
Sounds like my ideal night in honestly
@Desedoo The Spellsword or Parler...
Sandbox doesn't have to be openworld pvp, I feel like many here are conflating the two due to recent titles favoring pvp. There's no reason a PVE focused MMO can't be a sandbox
Well said
I loved WURM online back in the day and only played on PvE servers. Focus on traiding/building and get your neighbour together when a scary monster spawn close to you. I also worked as a road builder to make it easier for ppl to get around the map, sure i got a few coins for making the road but it was more for the community.
PvP is further towards sanbox on the scale because PvE always includes some curation in designing the Environment part. However, I agree with you that PvE focused games can fall into the sandbox category.
@@Kenionatus ehm in wurms it's only spawn that's made by dev, majority of ppl live on avg at least 20min from spawn. The rest of the world is "wild"
Actually I think that pvp prefer sandbox not the other way around… if you kill for joy… you’ll get even more joy when you can build an empire.
Praetorium as backdrop to the discussion of how theme park repetition gets stale: galaxy brain move.
SUCH DEVASTATION
Tell me, for whom do you fight? How very glib, and do you believe in Eorzea? Eorzea's is forged on falsehoods. It's cities are built on deceit and it's faith is an instrument of deception. It is naught but a cobweb of lies - to believe in Eorzea is to believe in nothing. In Eorzea, the beast tribes often summon Gods to fight in their stead. Though your comrades only rarely respond in kind - which is strange is it not? Are the twelve otherwise "engaged"? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do not repeat the trick that served you in carteneau and call them down? They will answer so long as you lavish them with crystal and gorge them on aether. Your god are no different from those of the beasts - eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzeas faith is bleeding the land dry. Nor is this unknown to your masters, which prompts the question - why do they cling to these false deities? What drives men of learning - even the great louisoux to grovel at their feet? The answer? Your masters lack the strength to do otherwise! For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world. To this end, he hath fought ever to raise himself through conflict, to grow rich through conquest. And the dust of the battle settles, it is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak. Knowing this, but a single path is open to their impotent ruler - that of false worship. A path which leads to enervation and death. Only a man of power can rightly steer the course of civilization. And in this land of creeping mendacity, that one truth will prove its salvation. Come champion of Eorzea, face me! Your defeat shall serve as proof of my readiness to rule! It is only right that I should take your realm, for none among you has the power to stop me!
I feel they should simply remove the main scenario roulette and rework praetorium into a solo instance where you fight alongside npcs. Doing prae over and over again really tests your sanity and is a bothersome obligation.
@@jeremywright9511 its not obligatiom though? I think of it as community service that pays well when you need the exp or tomes.
@@blushingralseiuwu2222 People's obsessions with doing MSQRoulette on the daily is nothing short of bizzarre.
With a little ingenuity, you could add ghosts to the bumper cars, though.
ah yes, Secret World had that and it was great
If it's too easy to add ghosts to your bumper cars, you have a serious safety issue.
For theming, yes. It's still applicable, it probably represents expansions XD
@@Shinki8421 Yes, it was amazing!
Ghost Bumpers
This was a very interesting video. Often when I've expressed desire for a "sandbox mmo", it was never about building in the world or having unpredictable systems. I've always thought of it as an mmo where my adventure is one of my own making. To me, this isn't the same thing as building or character creation gimmicks, which I've also never thought much of.
I guess, when I say sandbox, I'm talking about games like the original Everquest. A game where you make your character, get out into the world and rather than following a predetermined path or being railroaded into a Main Questline, I got to decide where I was going to go and what I was going to be doing. Now of course my decisions were limited by what was in the game, what challenges I could overcome at any particular level, and what options I might suddenly have available based on the friends I made (or didn't) along the way, but I always felt like it was my adventure and my story. Sure, another player and I could swap stories about similar places we'd been in the world and monsters we encountered, but on a whole, it always felt like my progression through the game was unique to me and the choices I made.
I'm not challenging your definition of what a sandbox mmo is. I think you're correct. Just pointing out that you might hear the term used incorrectly by players like me who really want something in between a sandbox and theme park. The ability to go off the rails and create your own adventure, but still play in the world the designers have hand crafted for the players without being tied to questlines that force you to play through it to unlock new zones, game features, etc.
I think you description fits a non linear MMO more or an MMO with a certain amount of level scaling which lets YOU decide where to go and which area you wanna play in right now.
Nice! Y'all do exist! It's not just me!
I'll take this as a proof of concept, and run with it.
This is what sandbox's were originally suppose to be, but the AAA studios had to come and f*ck everything up.
That is exactly part of sand box design. Where a Theme Park is not on rails for say, it has areas where you take part the attractions. Sand Box design allows player freedom and adventure. Explore, Create, Interact, Socialize, Imagine, Discover, and Trade these are pillars of sandbox design. Where Theme parks will some Explore and Discover, but very limited in Interact and Create, Theme Park pillars are much more like Gather in Location, Admire, Play Activity, Collect, Reward, Challenge, Story/Lore, and Group Play Activities.
God damn it, Josh. I started your video while doing an MSQ daily roulette and now I'll watch Praetorium while playing Praetorium? Such devastation..
Was this your intention?
I prefer theme park, mostly because in the majority of the sandbox games I've played, I get destroyed by whatever dominate player faction rules the server. It becomes impossible to get anywhere.
The catch is that the companies need to provide incentives for more than one group to be dominant, and need to offer resources for newer players to learn the ropes safely as well as find and discover compatible player groups to be a part of. EVE Online has a bit of a problem with the "blue donut" of nullsec space, but with wormhole space not having static connections as well as limiting how large of a force could invade them at once, it provides some extra areas for smaller groups to cut their teeth. Not to mention the Player->Corp->Alliance grouping, meaning that it's easier to find a corp you like to play with who is then able to move between alliances as needed, too.
I agree. Sandbox comes with a really difficult issue: balancing.
Take Albion Online as an example. It is a fun game but as soon as you join a big alliance like ARCH or whatever there is, you will see that there is much more to it. It's almost like political parties that fight for strategic resources and the game becomes more like a job. Same probably goes for EVE Online too.
I probably failed to wrap it in words properly, hope you get the gist.
sounds like yall are just entitled whiny players
@@Sadew_Sadew Its the blue bubble is mostly because of Jump drives and Sov upgrades, if they made null sec bigger the blue bubble won't be a problem, and if they removed sov upgrade.
Theme Park over sandbox for me.
Sandbox approach is great for single player titles, not so much for multiplayer, especially if the games leave free range to the players. It takes just a few dedicated players to ruin the experience of many others.
negatory. some sandbox games are completely reliant on being multiplayer.
Indeed, for large part, once you built whatever there is only so much content you can experience. It get's pretty stale, however once you can destroy someone else and claim whatever resources they have it creates content. The problem being it tends to be a snowball effect, and whoever is victorious just keeps gobbling up the other players who then have to start from scratch.
Quite on the opposite. If you take a look, every single theme park MMO becomes a single player game down the line. TRUE Massively Multiplayer games are sandbox since it pretty much forces everyone to play together
@@TheBrazilRules This, Theme park MMOs are just bad single payer RPGs with other people around, for some reason. Hardly Multiplayer for a genre that's meant to be Massively Multiplayer.
@@fatrat600284 Why was WoW so popular again?
Sandbox games are a great enjoyment for solo players and groups of friends. But once you bring more people in it, there is a greater chance that some of them are plainly a-holes. A MMO Sandbox game, giving players the power to influence the gaming world, would be destined to be abused by people. Plus, with housing, we already have a sandbox inside a theme park, one that isn't intrusive to other players and yet delivers a lot of freedom and creativity. So I would always prefair a theme park over a sandbox, unless a developer manages to create a sandbox MMO that doesn't end in potential frustration through other players. But that has yet to come.
Griefing and other forms of trolling is alive and well. Hell, I've seen that in roller coasters with people dragging high level foes into lowbie zones.
The true classic is the "WoW Plague".
Literally the point of an is to be involved with other people, now this is not to say that having the option for solo experience is bad but to put that on a pedestal defeats the purpose of the genre imo. Themeparks to me are basically pre-scripted stories, where im forced to follow a pre-determined story line; far from the idea of being able to change the world through my own ideals
agree, there is a case for that.
When internet get a power to decide something, it tend to be troll.
A couple that give internet power to naming his unborn baby.
Or a screen that display tweet from specific tag without any moderation or filter, internet use that to troll them.
anonymous power behind the chair, doing anything with very little consequences tend to make people doing whatever without any restriction, except their moral compass.
And people who don't believe about judgement or karma from their action, they usually don't care.
Complete opposite for me. Theme park mmorpgs feel like single player games with co-op modes and a perennial chat hub where you can see other people's avatars, except that usually they have way worse gameplay
Could mini world solve this? A sandbox world with less people
I can't take a bumper car on a rollercoaster or build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercar area? Naive Josh, I got hacks for my rollercoaster tycoon.
I love how much of the b footage is from all of the truly awful games he's been subjected to
he's subjected himself to* lol, big difference
@@tindekappa9047 that's a fair point
Many that he said actually weren't bad, but suffered from releasing at the same time or just before something better, or were once among the best but couldn't make new content fast enough, so everyone left.
@@LikaLaruku or completely failed the cash shop a lot of games at the time had a healthy player base or a good ide then over time just failed in everything.
I saw no Dreamworld footage for the Sandbox part. I was disappointed.
I've always liked the idea of sandbox MMOs but when I play them I eventually just want to ride some good old-fashioned roller coasters.
While I may like the story driven superhero/villain theme park that is DCUO, my heart is always in the open multi-world experience of Star Wars Galaxies (classic version). Currently the only way to do that is SWGEmu emulated servers. The SWGLegends is okay though. It took the last version of the game and made it fun.
I will always prefer theme park over sandbox. I hate games where they drop you in and expect you to create your own fun. I’m not creative enough to come up with my own in game agenda I like to follow the script and stick to the map rather than write my own on a blank slate
Just to elaborate on my thoughts a bit more using some comparisons. Josh mentioning lego is genius. I used to love bionicle and I only ever built the figures as the instructions said to, while a friend would always use pieces from different figures to create his own. I never liked making maps in halo forge but loved playing online in maps that had already been made. I love world of Warcraft and hate Minecraft. It can even be applied to smartphones for the ever ongoing iOS (theme park) vs Android (sandbox) debates. It all comes down to how creative an individual is while partaking in these different products, and while I’m glad options exist for those who are able to take full advantage of it I’ve never been a creatively skilled person so I don’t enjoy making my own customized fun, I struggle to come up with what I want to do when someone hasn’t already laid out what the specific options are
ah the good ol "we didnt create content cUz MaKe YoUr oWn fUn" type of game
The way I see it, many games focus on the size and grittiness of the "sandbox" to the point where it can be compared to getting dropped naked in a vast desert. The sandbox needs to have a boundary, you need to provide buckets and shovels, there should be other kids around, and if you want to engage in a more structured form of play, you should be allowed to leave the sandbox. Sometimes, you want to get out of the dirt and jump on the seesaw instead.
@@jonathansoko1085 this type of game works great for pvp games though. I love games where I can form relationships and plan revenge plots on other players for example. For me it is also much more memorable to make these experiences rather than play out one already written
@@gagne6928 If the RNG gods wills it.
Albion Online isnt really a sandbox. Its can use "Sandbox" MMO because the studio itself is called "Sandbox Interactive"
Albion online is a shitehole for whales and guilds
It's sandbox
@@BL00DYBUTTC0UGH how?
Sandpark.
It's a sadbox
The most extreme sandbox MMO is 2B2T.
? Whats that?
@@josephteller9715 The oldest anarchy server in Minecraft
Found the fitmc viewers
@@theknightwhosaysni6318 i read that with FitMC voice
@@josephteller9715 Hell. There's no other way to describe it
I mean honestly, how many organic, purely "player-crafted" "stories" have you experienced in a Sandbox MMO? 99% of the time it's going to be: I built a shitshack because that's what the meta needs you to do, I crafted some stuff and then got cut down like a dog for no reason by someone who probably didn't even say anything to me except maybe cursing me out or something. Maybe, I got 2-3 friends to play some and then when we encountered other players we either killed them or they killed us, because there is F*CK ALL else to do in the game. Game designers make it seem like a Sandbox MMO would somehow be essentially a tabletop RPG with no GM except the game systems themselves, where all these interesting dynamics develop and unique stories happen, but it is literally just lord of the flies because ALL there is to do is 1. Collect resource 2. Make item 3. Kill player in almost every one of these.
"you can't build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercars" is that a challenge?
Rollercoaster Tycoon with multiplayer.
I was thinking the people mover at Disney world.
This sounds like something Lets Game it Out would make happen in a RC game
I really have a hard time agreeing with the lego analogy. My brothers and I played lego all the time and while we all bought sets the sets were all built only ever once before being taken apart and thrown in the pile. Part of the fun has always been the MoC (My own Creation) aspect of Lego, where you could build whatever you want whenever you felt like it, and the skills you learn as you develop and build are then praised by others. The Lego movie selling kits based off of what was built in the movie wasn't a direct slam on the plot, and the fact people bought it doesn't confirm that theme park bias - people buy lego sets because they are cool. The stingy kids and collectors build a set, put it on the shelf, and then forget about it as a display item that's no different than a diorama or a model. The actual kids, the ones having fun, took it apart after to build their own thing.
It's also worth noting that a lot of this angst involving the Sandbox has far less to do with the individual player experience and more to do with other people ruining the fun. That's not a sandbox problem, that's a player and rules enforcement problem. If you were to take a real world playground sandbox and told kids they could play in the sandbox like their favorite MMO or sandbox shooter there'd be a lot of upset kids and some very angry parents questioning who's in charge and demanding fair play. Modern sandboxes more or less evolved from that early internet freedoms of games like Ultima Online where people were allowed to literally do whatever they wanted, which included PVP spawncamping the city gates (to the point where an admin in Ultima was even berated by a player for preventing him from playing their game and had to reflect on his choices, as opposed to, say, ban the player for being a crappy sport and ruining other players fun). These kinds of players - the raiders, the spawncampers, the griefers - are only given free reign because the sandbox doesn't have explicit rules guiding appropriate play in the name of the freedom they are supposed to bring, so the moment the bullies know that there's no supervisor to berate or punish them they run wild at the expense of other players (which is where a sandbox will death spiral) (it's also why I don't ever play sandbox games on public multiplayer servers, it's not worth inevitably getting raided when I log off and losing my progress).
A good sandbox provides the freedom of a player to make whatever they want, but a great sandbox offers that level of control without the punishment of another player being a douchebag, and provides more tools and toys for the player to do other things within their sandbox.
John Strife Hayes: In the sandbox there are no rollercoasters.
Me: You visit some lame sandboxs John.
IMO EVE got the balance right. You can totally play it as a theme park, stay in hi sec space, farm sites, do incursions, generally be a PvE carebear. Then you can head to null sec space, build space stations, fight for territory, and generally scam and steal your way to greatness.
Albion online is an easier to get in version of EVE I've always found, but is simpler, and not based on space, which limits the systems available to it.
Either one is not really a pickup and play game. It takes a long time to get used to, a long time to skill up to the better stuff, and a lifetime to learn fully.
Theme parks are a lot clearer in direction, and most importantly, you can learn to play them instantly. My first few weeks in EVE were a struggle, like, a reeeeeal struggle.
Eve as a theme park didn't work out, at least for me. I tried it and it inevitably was boring and uninspired. Maybe because I'm not too fond of the sci fi theme, but everyone tells me that joining a corp and going to nullsec is where the fun is, and because I'm not into sandbox stuff like that, I ended up quitting. But again, could be that it's just the theme and narrative that are off putting to me, as well as the absurd ammount of time it takes to train a skill
PvE in EVE is godawful, and while I have seen a few people enjoy it, it makes me doubt their sanity. It is a sandbox game through and through - the "rides" aren't actually experiences to be enjoyed, they are 1) timesinks to make currency valuable so that you then spending that currency in the sandbox has weight 2) opportunities to put your assets out in space so people can try and gank you, generating more PvP content.
@@MeneltirFalmaro Well call me insane then I guess. 😱
@@ElShogoso there are some ways to treat EVE as a sort of themepark - exploring world, looking for and running existing storylines, maybe a bit of roleplay even (not sure if it counts). Yet, in sandbox spirit, game does awful job at presenting you those options - you need to find what could be fun for you and start doing it yourself; this creates an obstacle for new players trying to enjoy the game: there's so many options it's hard to decide on anything.
A lot of people suggest joining large groups, main benefit being any existing group will provide guidance and at least present you viable options without being overwhelming - nullsec isn't more fun than any other place in EVE, it's just the most organized area of space, and with organization comes guidance, allowing you to choose something fun to do others are organizing, instead of making your own fun.
I smile every time he mentions the font size
your hability to write a really great text is incredible and awesome. keep with your good work
A cool idea I had to kinda bridge the gap: player controlled castles/resource nodes that other players can assault in a raid type instance. The owners get to build it by buying premade rooms and hiring npc bodyguards/constructs/beasts to put in those rooms that make up the encounter. Maybe give them slight ai adjustments depending on the room and npc makeup.
Dunno how well that would work, but I think it could be fun.
Camelot unchained is basically doing that.
"You can't add ghosts to the haunted house."
Yes you can. You just need to play with others.
The lego Movie topic brought back some good nostalgia. After I watched the lego movie with friends we went home and opened massive boxes of lego just to build anything. I remember I build a big car, it had no cohesive coloring and was not symmetrical at all but I remember I added so many tiny details to it such as a ejector seat, moving claws etc. I was so proud of my self for making something I thought was cool with no instructions.
As a young game developer. Your videos are always great insights into possible ideas and consequences for the people developing and the player base. For me a MMORPG can only reach its highest evolution in terms of mechanics and playability is when it combines both with the strictness of the theme park theme and the flexibility and "freedom" to the interactions possible to the Player. For a Player when it goes to a MMORPG it's usually greeted with being unique, special and can influence the world and it's choice. But in reality it's following one route with no other choice than following what we have presented and "ordered" the player to experience and enjoy. I believe the Player should follow the route the game allows. Allow the World to be itself and the Player an outside variable can interact but can't change the foundation of that reality. At the end of the journey, instead of Player be given free reign to do what it wish it can do with parts of the World involved change it slightly and slowly. Letting the World and the rest of player base adapt with it or the World can reject your idea and try to erase you from it or other Players try to fight against you. This is not a perfect system but I believe a MMORPG like this instead of being opposites would be an evolutionary step in the right direction. A World where it changes itself but can be influenced slightly by the Player base in a very slow manner but the World can reject the Player and try to fight it off or accept it.
I'm here for the mug shot and I'll stay for the video.
Theme parks over sandboxes any day...Damn you, Billy, pissing on my sandcastle when we were 4, 28 years ago...where was I...oh yes...I like the term theme park in general but as a game...sandbox, in which I will create a theme park.
While I don't see myself playing it, I really like Crowfall's pitch of PvP sandboxes with a "duration" and then rewards that feed into meta-progression that exists outside of those sandboxes. It's an interesting solution to the problem of "sandboxes are at their best when they're brand-new," and I hope it plays out well in practice.
sandbox MMO is a MMO where the developers don't actually want to create anything, so they let the players pay to create the content for them.
Agreed. While I can't fault a small studio for wanting to create an MMO the "cheap way" I've never played anything more unappealing than, well... an empty box of sand.
You miss the entire point of a sandbox MMO, which are true MMOs (community driven games).
sounds stupid and bias'd
I like hybrids of the two. A game with structure but not structure you need to follow and enough freedom to let you do whatever you want where you want. Star Citizen is aiming for this and what we see so far is pretty amazing. There are missions you can do with quest markers and specific objectives and at the same time plenty of room to take pretty much any item anywhere with any combination of ships and weapons with any number of players and make your own fun. This is how I entered huge 50 player PVP fights almost daily through 2019 and now join tons of large events from races to death match battles to fashion shows. I even saw a dude RPing as a bar tender in one of the bars handing out drinks to players and using VOIP to take orders.
All that said my favorite MMO is Guild Wars 2 which is a pretty non linear theme park MMO. I had always thought it was pretty sandboxy as there is no real direction and you can tackle anything at pretty much any time in any order. Your objectives and goals are your own and there are so many ways to accomplish whatever you want from general exploration and world events to structured PVE in dungeons and raids and even all the way to structured small scale PVP and very unstructured massive PVP. I guess its not totally a sandbox but the progression feels kind of sand boxy as the game does not give direction and your enjoyment is totally on you to find what is fun. A lot of games will tell you what to do to have fun and progress and I find these kinds of game a little boring as sometimes I don't want to do these things. This is why I quit WOW, I don't like dungeons and raids but that is really the only way to progress the character outside of PVP and WOWs PVP is kind of a joke.
I started liking sandboxes (UO), and now I only can stand a bit of theme parks from time to time.
Nothing can't compete with UO, sandbox or themepark. Open world pvp at his best, PVE was a bit redundant but there was so many places to go and the world was feeling so big.
Sandbox was fun when I was a young creator with time.
Themepark is what I love most because I am now a creator with a fulltime job.
*me not reading the title properly:* OMG AN MMO WHERE YOU CAN CREATE YOUR OWN THEME PARK???
then there are the cases where you do get away with taking the laser guns outside the arena, and it works and players have fun, and then devs swoop in and cancel the fun.
sandboxes are just the ultimate form of themparks
I personally enjoy theme park designs in my games. Sandboxes tend to be gigantic but shallow while theme parks are more dense at the cost of world size and realism. Being at an age where I can’t spend all day playing video games, theme park designs just make more sense for getting the most fun in the shortest amount of time.
Sandboxes also very often aren't. They might _say_ they're a sandbox, but when you take a closer look, you'll notice that not only did they not give you any tools to shape the world, they also bound your hands behind your back.
And you can still have fun in a theme park even if you're the only person along for the ride (case in point: Otherland). Sandboxes quickly get boring when you're alone.
@@rolfs2165 About how sandboxes are often not real sandboxes thats the fault of specific games because there are true sandboxes mmos. I understand that themepark games need less time investment but for me that just makes them cheap fast food with no real impact.
What about theme park with rides and sandboxed areas? E.g. imagine an actual sandbox area inside a theme park for the kids to play with. Anything goes in terms of player design but only in that area…
That's basically two different games at that point. Developing mechanics and support systems needed in a sandbox is a massive undertaking, and very little of that can be re-used in a theme park.
Choice paralysis. When there is so much choices, you can't choose anything. Not to mention, sandbox require creativity, and most people aren't really that into creation. Most people would rather play a game to have fun as soon as possible rather than think how to make something so that it is fun. I mean, it's amazing to see player made structures in minecraft, but most players probably just stick to 5 x 5 x 5 houses. Theme park wins on practicality, Sandbox wins on possibilities (positive or negative).
I like a theme park when I just want a more casual game. I like sandbox too. I think a mix of both would be kind of interesting too. For example I have an OSRS account that has the lowest health level it can. I am constantly looking for mechanics that come from items or effects that were obtained during quests or from minigame rewards. I feel like allowing some items to work outside of the area they were designed for in a game like Runescape can lead to some interesting things being made possible provided it doesn't break the game of course.
Eve Online is pretty much a mix. You can join a massive faction and compete for dominance in nul sec, and you can manufacture and trade anywhere, true. But you can also play for years as a high-sec adventurer running missions for the various NPC factions and getting rewards strictly in high sec (where other players can't gank you without suffering significant penalties.) So I would say that Eve Online is the perfect example of a mix that works, because you have the freedom to play both theme park and sandbox both, to whatever degree you prefer. (Speaking as a former high sec dual boxing tengu carebear myself :) )
So we been basically playing theme park mmos the whole time, thinking they were sandbox and being proud of it.
What game did you think was a sandbox?
@@NeurosisOsmosis I have heard Runescape be associated with a sandbox, because the amount of variety means every playthrough is unique. I think larger MMOs can feel more "sandboxy" because there are many ways to complete an endgoal.
So, in the Lego analogy, a sandboxy theme park means you have a lot of different bricks to choose from, and you can put them in any order you want, but inevitably you will end up building the same few models the developers intended. Which is less streamlined than a linear Lego set with a precise order and brick use.
@@Magmagan Yeah a problem with this video is it makes it seem like this is a black & white dichotomy of sandbox vs themepark, when really it's a spectrum. With WoW being the extreme themepark, and probably eve being the extreme sandbox
Final Fantasy XI actually does a little bit of both. Conquest, Besieged, Campaign, and Colonization are each their own closed sandbox systems, usually with different factions vying for power from moment to moment, and a big update based on the results of that struggle at the end of each Earth week. Also, the very nature of a shared overworld makes it very possible to walk through an area shortly after somebody slaughtered all the monsters on your path, leaving you with an empty path until they start respawning. Even today, all it takes is one fool walking behind Mireu to make an entire server angry at them for triggering its devastating AoE Spike Flail. That said, there is also decidedly partitioned content players can experience individually. Mission (story) content, obviously, but also certain quests, battlefield fights, and gameplay systems such as Ambuscade, Assault, the reworked Dynamis, and Omen.
For our part, all FFXI players particularly seem to care about is whether a system is worth putting the time into it or not.
I like my MMOs as a theme park. Funny you should bring up Guild Wars 2 though; it has some interesting compromises. Dynamic events help keep the open world from being stale, and each of the heart 'quests' have multiple objectives, so any 2 players could have completed it differently. WvW mixes it up a bit with fixed fort locations but destructible walls and player buildable upgrades and siege weapons - any time you enter, the zones could be controlled by different worlds, varying your available targets and priorities. There could be a player commander rallying the other players to take over zones, or just a scattered collection of roamers trying to defend and pick off stragglers. Good discussion though.
Rollercoaster bumper cars sounds pretty cool. Let's do it.
One thing that annoys me the most is when some people use theme-park as a pejorative
In a way it makes sense, but that's like not liking a car because a spaceship would be so much better. You can't exactly get a spaceship (yet) so why be salty about cars?
@@edit3891 In no way does it make sense.
@@jonathansoko1085 I mean, it works as a pejorative as long as you don't like the characteristics that make theme park enjoyable for others.
Some people just love to be able to do whatever they want and find ways to "break" the game, for those kind of people a theme park design is bad thing because it takes away your ability to change the game.
Personally, i see sandbox as a bad thing (for MMOs) since if everyone has freedom, everyone has the freedom to end yours.
@@jonathansoko1085 It makes sense in the way that it has limits some people really don't like, specifically your adventure isn't unique and it lacks many choices.
When used as a pejorative they are showing their distain for it's faults, but again it's useless in the end.
@@vinimooraess It doesnt work as a pejorative, sit this one out if you cant get that
I think theme park is the best, but having one of the rides within that theme park as a sandbox type game mode
Good example of them being combined is the sand-park game -- ArcheAge.
"You can't build a roller coaster through a bumper car area"
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I do think there is a market for games in the middle. I dont need to be able to build the mellenial falcon with the house building system but I do want to decide where my house and craftingtabgles should be. I Do want a well designed dungeon with a story but I want to find it myself and not through a questline. The elderscrolls games (not the mmo) I think has the best mix of sandbox/exploration with a curated liniar experience. Hard to implement with multiplayer though. Valheim probably has the best formula with optional multiplayer. Hop on a big server with random players or start your own with some friends.
In my experience, sandbox MMOs tend to be more heavy handed with the monetisation. Cash shop inventory upgrades, deeds to own on land, materials you need to build things, almost anything to do with player housing... All the cool customisation stuff tends to be locked off by a pay wall or with ridiculous grinding.
I don't think it needs to be one or the other so starkly, it could be possible to combine the sandbox and theme park styles of games
Great vid as always, but i was hoping you'd talk more about the spectrum, how some games lean toward one or the other and how they turn out because of that
After watching this i can see why idyl for example talks about older mmos being better and whatnot though i felt like he could've phrased it better since it seems like he enjoys more of the sandbox ones from what I gathered.
I like playing themepark games when I'm solo and sandbox games (Albion Online) when I want to play with friends.
That’s so cool, because I’m literally the exact opposite. Opinions are awesome lol
I recon I'm a Theme Park guy based on the MMOs I've played: EverQuest, World of Warcraft, DC Universe Online, Rift, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Planetside 2 (only during Beta) and now Elder Scrolls Online.
Since I'm also an Altoholic and thus do a lot of "Horizontal Progression" I tend to play a lot of the same areas in an MMO multiple times, but for me it hardly ever gets boring.
i personally have more fond memories with sand park games one of my favorite stories is when me and two friends where playing arma 3 altas life think dark rp or 5m server anyway we decided to be drug dealers so we were driving out to get supplies when we popped one of the tires i get out along with friend 1 to fix it he finishes up with out realizing im still outside and runs over my leg breaking it almost immediately apon learning about my leg friend 2 pops out of the truck pulling out his pistol chanting you are the weakest link.
we talk him down and drive to the nearest hospital in the middle of the night we park and i run in well to be honest crawled but anyway im trying to figure out how the panel works and i see some car lights drive up followed by my friends screaming saying they're getting kidnapped friend 2 then says hey we got a friend in the hospital take her instead.
the kidnappers leave with the both of them hand cuffed and with a bag over they're head now what happens next is from they're perspective as im left at the hospital crippled.
both friends are being driven to the airport now and friend 1 gets put on a heli friend 2 is let go simply because he was wearing head phones and they thought he was mentally handicap so they give him the car and start to take off friend 1 is shouting in discord ram the heli so friend 2 picks up speed and just before he hits the heli the car explodes right before it can hit the heli at that moment they realize there was a car bomb inside that triggered when he hit a certain speed.
so with friend 1 alone with the kidnappers one driving one in the back talking with him and asks
kidnapper: hey boy do you smoke?
friend 1 no?
kidnapper: good those pretty pink lungs will fetch a nice profit
unfortunately the story ends here as the server crashes and it brought every one to spawn but i still think its quite funny since organ harvesting is a thing on altas life
7:36 but that doesn't matter when Everything Is Awesome!
SO i been playing FF14 as a former wow player and i gotta say i've never spent so little time in menu's in a mmorpg. it's kinda weird that's what i been thinking about i'm playing more outside of menu's no talent tree no menu systems no tables to messure just pick class play i think equment menu's have been used less cause i can auto equpe faster.
Josh: "curated experience."
Video: rushing Prae
Me:lol
It's a bit like working for an employer versus being self employed.
Either you know you're going to go to work and do as you're told for X hours for X pay or you're going to have to build it yourself and your success is mostly entirely on you. Working for someone else is safer, easier and appeals to far more people. Creating your own business offers far less security and stability but far more potential.
Yeah, no, just look at 20 different sandbox games and you’ll see they have barely any potential at all and are barren games. The most “potential” it gives is allowing more griefing to other players and rarely anything beyond that. Contrast that to theme parks that can have hundreds of hours of content, and you get to decide what areas you want to focus on.
“You can’t take a bumper car onto a rollercoaster. You can’t build a rollercoaster through the bumper car area.”
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I was 30 minutes late to the premier... this is what I get for trying to BAKE COOKIES!!!
That was a very well articulated "ni," well done. Also, sorry you missed the premier, though it was for a worthy cause.
Why does albion counts as sandbox?
I mean, I get it say it is one, but why would it be one?
You can "gather what you want", like any theme park mmo.
You can mix equipment, like any theme park build...
You can engage in pvp almost anywhere, like most pvp oriented server?
Why could it be more like a theme park mmo:
You can choose HOW you fight, mostly WHEN you fight, but the variation on the experience changes with other players like any pvp oriented game.
You can choose to go into fixed rides, like dungeons or pvp dungeons.
It's like saying a mix of pvp-matchmaking + invasions like dark souls is enough to make a sandbox.
Just to say, I could be understanding sandbox wrong... but even fortnite was more "free form" on the build anything, do "almost" anything.
I can't really comprehend sandbox, maybe because I compare with minecraft and the modded part of games like skyrim, which where a lot more like ANYTHING.
Personally I really like hybrid games with limited sandbox like features but theme park goals.
ArcheAge was a great game for me. Dungeons and a quest story line. The housing and open world stuff was fun. The trade system was good even with the designers seemingly sabotaging it at every turn.
whenever i hear someone say a game is like a theme park i immediately think of when yandere dev tried to justify lack of content.
Is it just me or does the theme park description sound like most of josh's theme park experience comes from Roller Coaster Tycoon lol
Release this earlier i have to go backt o work when it drops
Videos keep getting better and better 🤟
shit now i want a bumbercar on a rollercoaster .... gj josh
He just wanted to tell us about the irony with the Lego Movie but he somehow needed it to fit somewhere. Thats the reason he made the video. :D
I mostly prefer theme parks - but I do think there is some more room for sandbox on the (100% optional) PvP side of things. Something like the old Dark Age of Camelot - only with a larger number of objectives to fight over and more customization of the defenses etc.
I do think that the free-for-all PvP of many sandbox games is a bad idea. It should always be opt-in only.
My dream faction-based MMO would be that normally there is no PvP, but you have to turn on your PvP mode to attack enemy faction NPCs - which opens you up to enemy players. But the enemy players have to initiate the combat and can choose to ignore you. (A good idea if low level and/or horribly outnumbered.)
Josh i’m loving the pvp in swords of legends games awesome
Ok but consider this:
The dungeon progression is built like a themepark and you can't build anything you want anywhere you want, but at the same time there's open world pvp and the players have extreme freedom in their character builds.
I'm in Castrum Meridianum, watching this on the side.
I greatly prefer theme parks, and this doesn't just go for the MMO world. I have many friends who love playing games like Minecraft or ARK but I just can't get into them. I work all day and have to come up with complex ideas, and I don't want to have to build my own fun on top of it. I hate doing hours of work in a game like Minecraft only to have to start all over again by going to another server, for example. Comparatively, when I play a crafted experience, I'm being taken on a journey that I'll possibly only play once, but I know it's something that will impact me. For example, I've been taking a small break from FFXIV to play Tales of Berseria for the first time, and it's been a mighty fun adventure that I'm happily following. I feel far more fulfilled being able to take part in that beautifully crafted experience compared to spending hours farming materials or trying to build something.
My personal thought would be, it should be a mix of the two. More specifically, the game should offer a solid themepark experience, but then allows the player to access sandbox experience if they so wish. As a barebone example, FFXIV is kinda, the MSQ experience and duty finder dungeons are rather fixed, and the overworld weren't really affected by any player really, but then the players are free to try getting through dungeons in customized way, or go visit player houses, or play the game like a dress up simulator. Progress wise it is pointless but it could be fun.
like you previously mentioned in other video:
people want to feel comfort and familiar which is one of reason why lot of people love themepark game despite repetition/limitation. not saying it is bad things though. like you said, everything has pro and cons.
wish there were more people who would notice, that both designs have their advantages and disadvantages. always love it how theme park people call sandbox people idiots for not playing the correct design and vice versa.
As a fan of theme park MMORPGs in general, the more and more segmentation (layers, phases, loading screens), railroading (main quest with "chosen one" theme) and orientation towards pure solo game with an option for group play of 10% of the content is killing it for me in the recent past. Next MMORPGs for me have to have at least a fraction of sandbox to float my boat.
I've heard the term sandbox a ton in this context, but never theme park, so I appreciate this distinction being explained. =) I'd prefer a theme park experience myself for several reasons, but I also don't usually care much for sandbox games in general, so that's no surprise.
May one day the font size be so small you will only be able to read it at 8k
I like sandbox game design a bit but I could never see it working as an MMO, and only rarely like in the case of Minecraft (which has been slowly implementing bits of theme park design to increase people's desire to play) do I see it working long term
"Both? Both! Both is good!"
I see you, too, are a man of culture.
I mean you CAN add ghosts to the haunted house, you'll just have to go to jail.
Sandbox vs Theme park: slave pen vs freedom, guaranteed gruel every day with going hungry some days and some days feasting on a mammoth (same dichotomy as walled gardens). Or, even better: online gaming vs single player - depending on a company's whim vs being in control (given no DRM, e.g. GOG or Linux).
Also, theme parks time-gate more, and your beloved ESO takes far more than 100 hours to level 15 toons to level 60 and even more to master crafting. Though, sandboxes are more grindy.
i feel this video sell sandbox design way short as just an unguided building simulator were games (not mmos and maybe a combo of the two) breath of the wild and deus ex use clock work systems set in well crafted environments to allow people to use different interactions to tackle a situation in a multitude ways. so the idea a sandbox cannot have the same depth of content as a theampark game may be the norm for mmos atm but is not the case depending on how the devs build the systems.
I recently found your channel and I'm really enjoying your vids, but one thing I noticed is that sometimes you circle around the same point for too long, for example you gave 2-3 examples of theme park vs sandbox outside of gaming, which didn't quite work for me, since at the 6min mark I still didn't know what the theme park concept meant on a game
Here's a question for you.
Is EverQuest 1 up through Velious a themepark or a sandbox? This is an ongoing debate as EverQuest 1 is nothing like a themepark but doesn't allow permanent change either =P.
(your definition) If we are using sandbox as in permanent changes to the environment/landscape, then no, theme park.
(my definition) If we are using sandbox as open world, no set path, play your toon how you like instead of chasing down the next hub of exclamation points on the map, then yes, sandbox.
of course they're gonna sell the lego stuff in sets and with instructions. Most people don't have the nerve/time/interest to build something from scratch or just want one specific thing. You're still free to buy all the sets and mix them up.
Imagine the sims didn't come with preset npcs and builds, most people would stop playing.
Sandboxes work best with smaller servers rather than the big theme park MMO style. These days I get overwhelmed by the theme park style, I'm not connected to the world any more, so many quests, which way am I supposed to go, what is the optimum META, whereas sandbox, pressure is off and you can be part of the world.
I've always been more of a fan of the theme park model because it's closer to singleplayer RPGs that I started my gaming journey on.
Just knowing that there is a story to follow that gives me a red thread I can move along at.
To me, sandbox games lack the sense of direction.
Which is why I never got comfortable playing Minecraft.
I think the Lego movies take was more nuanced then "instructions bad"
I think one neds to make a distinction between highly linear MMOs where you have to start at area A, and then get moved to area B, and then C and so on. How much better is sonething like ESO, where you can more or less elect to explore anywhere in the world in any order.
I really love Theme Park design on MMOs since it makes me understand what I can and can not do easier. It's good to have a direction and a basic knowledge of what is going on in the world. I've started Guild Wars 2 a few days ago and it's an amazing game. On the other hand Sandbox works better in single player/not massively multiplayer games like Minecraft, Valheim and other like that. It's better to be able to do whatever you want without changing others' experiences too much. Also have you played Skyforge? Like in a Worst MMO series or something like that? I played the game for a bit while searching for good MMOs but the game is not exactly awesome. For example there's like 15 classes but you can only start with 4 of them, you can unlock others by playing but I didn't play for that long. On the other hand I thought it'd be an open world since every MMO I tried was open world but it wasn't an open world. You just go on quests and only you are there, no other players. You only see others in the main hall. Also in the start of the game the subtitles didn't match the voice over, well as far as I remember that is.
10:22 i think Josh misspoke here, saying that there is no subjective best design. he probably meant objective best. there absolutely is a subjective best & it's up to you to decide.
I prefer theme park design for MMOs and single player games. Sanbox/open world games don't really click with me for the most part. Although a game series with both theme park and sandbox elements I enjoy is the Yakuza series.
The games have linear stories with a semi open world map. The game worlds are relatively small compared to the average open world game; but the designers have used that limited to their advantage by placing sidequests, minigames, side activities, shops, etc on every street. Not much of the game space goes to waste unlike the average open world game where it feels like you won't come across something interesting for miles at a time. So on a first playthrough players are always encountering new stuff consistently that they can choose to do or not.
Sandbox all the way. I'd rather suffer through countless fights to the top, than get put on a track with no turns and just look at the content passing me by.
It’s like console vs PC. Ppl saying PC is the master and ultimate gaming experience. But in reality, you need to setup and build everything if you really want a good PC to play certain games (outside of having bad optimization issues with ultra high graphic ray tracing visual game). Yea, customization is a really thing but to get best experience, it’s really depending on the thing you play or prefer to. Ppl are usually dumbing on consoles for their exclusive but not so much on things that available on PC to work for other systems without custom build.
You also have games like dungeon fighter and mobile. The ultimate system doesn’t mean the most enjoyable system to play a game. Though I personally wish Vr become a thing soon as the technology is very limited right now. It’s still fun to play some games but not so much can actually capture a game like DemonSoul or Monster Hunter Generation and MMO experiences.