Justin Bass vs Richard Carrier | Are There Reliable Sources for the Resurrection of Jesus?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ม.ค. 2019
- Are There Reliable Sources for the Miraculous Resurrection of Jesus?
The resurrection of Jesus is the Christian religious belief that, after being put to death, Jesus rose again from the dead. It is the central tenet of Christian theology and part of the Nicene Creed. His resurrection is covered in the Scriptures; but are these writings reliable?
This debate will have an organized format and include time for audience questions. We intend for this to be a relaxed atmosphere. We encourage attendance for religious believers, non-believers, the agnostics, and also those who eschew labels.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
I guess Im kinda randomly asking but do anybody know a good site to stream new movies online ?
@Creed Darian i watch on FlixZone. Just google for it :)
Perfect description of Richard Carrier.
@@Nameless-pt6oj I'd say it describes both.
Hardly Bass. But Carrier is so much more likely. You should see what Tim O’Neill says about him.
A natural explanation is always better than a supernatural one. I'll buy "Someone made up stories" over "there was this god man who did all these magic things" any day
Because you are too arrogant to seek. You’d rather trust Dick than Jesus
It is always a pleasure to listen to Dr. Carrier. :-)
You’ll pay for that stupidity
Starts at 17:55, you are welcome
thanks
Thanks
24:00 to get past first speaker's annoying jokes.
Most best comment of the entire internet
Harry Potter book says we went to chamber of secrets so that proves Hogwarts and Voldemort
That’s a great straw man you got there!
Accurate example of using your own fictitious writing as “evidence” of its own “validity”.
Source: “Trust me, bro.”
Surprisingly, Christian New Testament Scholars think Christian New Testament Scholars are the most reliable scholars talking about the New Testament.
Are they not reliable? They are SCHOLARS just Bc they’re New Testament scholars doesn’t make them bias. They have to have academic integrity so if the New Testament is flawed they would tell us
@@smoovemove3988 in a lecture carrier gives he actually explains incredibly well why theyre unreliable. First is the confirmation bias, then theres just those whove held onto the belief for so long that theyre so emotionally invested in it that they wont allow themselves to see otherwise. Then theres biblical scholars in religuous universities that in order to keep their job they need to adhere to their faith, which is a massive conflict of interest. All of these reasons both conciously and subconciously affect their reading into the bible, their reading of outside evidence that contradicts it, and the willingness to jump to prepostorous claims based on faith. Bass claiming that the contradictions in the gospels proves that the resurrection was true is a perfect example. It shows the evolution of a story.
Non believer scholars are different in that, they rely on the evidence, and when it goes in a different direction theyll follow that because theres not the emotional connection preventing them
@@bowbowbowman7617 Richard Carrier is a fringe scholar for a reason. I could get into refuting your objections to the resurrection facts but I'm doing that on my Insta page soo
@@lonespartan8856 What facts on the resurrection? Because the only evidence that seems to be quoted is from the bible, which without anything outside of it to corroberate it isnt evidence. Even if you dont agree with Carrier, it still doesnt change the fact that if in order to keep their jobs at a Christian university they must hold onto their beliefs regardless of where the facts lead them, then they cannot be held as reliable scholars because of the massive bais. Non religious biblical scholars dont go looking to prove/disprove something, they go looking to find the truth, and will let it lead them down whichever path it does.
@@bowbowbowman7617 If you don't believe Carrier is biased you are blind.
See the original non edited version. Another master class by Dr Carrier on how to debate.
Watch Wise Disciple and you’ll see how to debate. And by the way, even great debaters make terrible arguments.
Justin's turn, Richard's turn, then Justin's "If I could just add to this." Just make your point when you have your turn. And the moderator won't encourage him to wait until Carrier is finished with a response. Then the moderator makes it "getting complicated" the threshold to stifle the conversation. Maybe they should get moderators who aren't easily confused by intelligent arguments. The interruption style of this debate was initiated by Bass and smartly picked up by Carrier late in the debate as it became the only way he could get his own interrupted points across. Bad moderators.
Deals with none of Carrier's arguments. Accuses him of being dismissive to selective evidence. Proceeds to ignore Carrier's arguments and swaths of evidence.
Kudos to Dr. Carrier for opening by setting aside his own opinion for the sake of the debate.
Bass is constantly interrupting Carrier. It's as if he's terrified of letting Carrier finish a sentence. Bass does not seem very confident in his position.
Great Unwashed, you need to do a better job of choosing who to believe. Carrier is delusional
@@michaelbrickley2443 Prove any of your dreck. Merely making an assertion proves nothing but your babyrage.
J M2064, pay the teacher or do the homework yourself. Look into what turned atheist/professional investigators into diehard Christian apologists. J. Warner Wallace for one and Lee Strobel for two. Smh
@@michaelbrickley2443
@@michaelbrickley2443 Your brain washed, removed from critical thinking.
Within 30 seconds Carrier absolutely obliterated Justin's entire argument...🥳
WOW!
And Justin didn't prepare for something like this in his opening?
@Danne Oberg He's wrong. More like the first 6 minutes Carrier "obliterated" Bass. So I see why you'd question the "30 seconds" claim
I thought this was hyperbole, but then I listened to it and you're right. The subject of the debate is over whether the Resurrection occurred, not whether Jesus was a historical person. Justin spends all his energy arguing for the latter, and indeed does a good job (channelling Bart Ehrman) but then does nothing to show that the Resurrection also happened, allowing Carrier an easy home run.
@Danne Oberg you can't prove something using scriptures that's like me saying harry potter really existed using the Harry Potter books and movies and fan fiction.
@Leon Schuring I'd say you need an education.
@Leon Schuring You can start with making a proper sentence. You start a sentence with a capital letter. Then you end it with a period. Then you have to make sense. Are you asking me where you can get an education, or how? I can't tell what you mean.
Hey Mr. moderator, we didn’t come to hear your opinions and STOP interrupting when it gets interesting. I hate it when moderators do this.
Carrier starts around 39:00.
Prove it
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! Enough said.
nope they require sufficient evidence
When you sense the desperation in their voices, you know instinctively that their lives or their livelihoods depend on the message coming out of their mouths
The drone that made the long winded statement about Jewish culture doesn't have a clue. Then Carrier says, "you are describing the entire old testament." Priceless.
Difficult to listen to any debater attempting to perform in an unwinnable debate, in particular one who is confronted with facts then replies with indoctrinated beliefs.
Liking the balance at the crossfire - Justin with a load of books in front of him.....Richard with a glass of red wine and no prompts - and very relaxed - all good from then on :-)
Because he been spouting the same stuff for decades. But uses a lot of "what about " isms.
Bass's rebuttal was hilariously desperate.
Justin bass in a nutshell: *slaps hood* "you know how many Jesus you can fit in this puppy?!"
🤣
WTH is Justin's deal with plates??? Isn't that as believable as Moses getting magic tablets on a mountain???.......... geez 🤔
my thoughts exactly. I'm no LDS, but it does seem like some strong double-standarding
@@communismisfreedom I think his deal is that an angel would bury gold plates in the backyard of some 1850s racist liar.
Mormonism wouldn't be a religion without Judaism or christianity. In fact it's validity is hinged on Moses receiving the tablets and Jesus truly being the messiah since it's precepts are Jewish and Christian.
I have no doubt that all 20 likes on your post are from 20 mormons
Bass seems to imply that it matters that the Christian resurrection was "unique" among all the different resurrected savior gods. It doesn't seem to be unique as Carrier points out but even if it was, who cares? As if fiction is never unique and fiction authors can't comes up with a slightly new idea?
I understand now that it's not possible for religious apologists to win a debate, but still good to see that they can be nice people occasionally.
Justin is a really nice guy.
Sure it's possible, because you don't win debates by having the best arguments. Poll the audiences afterwards - Christian audiences think the apologist "won."
It shocked me that Justin didn't have a comment in regards to the ethical and political ramifications of the resurrection. The abuse of children by men of God and the use of God's word to commit atrocities is most certainly a very critical thing to examine in regards to maintaining one's faith. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest. SMH 🙄😢
Having said that, I commend the gentleman who was strong and brave enough to give his testimony in making that point. I respect him very much.
Laura Magee, the abuse of children by “men of God?” Who are you kidding? They are far removed from that position....
@@michaelbrickley2443 The church ordained them didn't they? Isn't the church supposed to represent god's will on earth? Obviously the church has no spiritual authority, otherwise the holy spirit would inform the congregation that their pastor is raping one of their own.
darth geekboy the Spaniards were Catholic they spread Catholicism not Christianity buddy, and yes it started 2000 years ago out of “some backwater part of Ancient Rome” but yet it’s the worlds leading religion. THERE IS NOT ONE first generation Christian that recanted seeing the risen Christ. Pliny the Younger(Roman lawyer/Historian) recorded torturing second generation and third generation Christians and getting them to go back to the Roman gods. No where in any source do any of the apostles recant seeing the risen Christ they all died Terrible deaths(except). Also if it’s some back water religion from Ancient Rome then explain the Prophecies? Daniel 9 predicts Alexander the Great “strong he goat from the west” , mark 13 Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem. The Bible was written by 40 different authors over 1500 years yet you deny it. That’s why as you say “about a third of the population” is Christian, this is because there are unbelievers who choose toDeny Christ, but that’s okay because Romans 14:11 every knee will Bow.. every tongue will acknowledge God
@@smoovemove3988 You're full of fairytales.
@@smoovemove3988 Catholics are Christians. No true Scotsman. 😆
the moderator kept getting in the way of a great debate i think...
very friendly to one another. love to see that.
Carrier rules
Jesus had 70 or 72 disciples at one point in Luke 10 but 60 of them left. Dr. Bass missed that. There is a lot of material to remember in the Bible. Nobody remembers it all.
Dude, Carrier annhilated the whole "debate" within the first 6 minutes of his opening. Really no logical comeback or appeal after that. Anything you can even conceive to help Bass out with would be like throwing a pebble at a tank
During the discussion half, the moderator is terrible. He's interrupting the two during discussion just when they are getting to a serious point. This kind of discussion really calls for a light touch and he comes on like a cement mixer to smother discussion.
Spiderman is totally real! The Spiderman comic books are our source for this. Look they're in New York, which is a REAL city!
The straw man strikes again. We know that Spider-Man is a fictional character and we don’t say a certain place exists therefore an event happened. It increases the likelihood of something being accurate but doesn’t prove it. We know the distinction. Read GotQuestions.
Does Justin Bass think these arguments would actually convince atheists? It's made quite obvious through the debate that he nitpicks smaller and smaller differences between Christianity and other cults with similar elements as the debate goes on.
And what kind of historian makes teh argument that a historical fact is more believable if a cult grows to global levels of popularity? Is he not aware of other religions/myths/tales which make unbelievable (to him) claims and now are (and might have been before) known throughout the world?
Once upon a time there was what you could call an origin of life-sized hole in history. It was not filled with the he explanation in any Bible. On the contrary, the hole was filled with evolutionary biology and the true tale of or great ape ancestors.
History is 100% against filling holes with religious explanations. Carrier figured out how science can, once again, fill the hole much better.
The context of other religions allows us to understand how it's extremely likely that these kinds of assumed holes actually make a great deal of sense given the nature of religions.
Notice how Justin's arguments don't touch on other religions and similarities or incompatibilities. They don't exist. Only Christianity exists...
It's a narrow and dim worldview that seeks to erase them by omission. They are an inconvenient reality that completely debases his every argument.
You can see the honesty of Richard when he is incorporates them in his arguments. That's a real historian.
The Bible couldn’t fill the hole of history. There are many Books in the Bible that include history. The book of Daniel gives us the prophecies of Alexander the Great and the fall of his empire and how it will be split into 4 then into 2 then into 1(all in Daniel chapter 9), And look up wherever you want to find the date of the book of Daniel( 536 Bc) who also gives revelations of Jesus Christ.
Hey Dr. Bass, seeing a lot of negativity in the comments, I think you did great :) I hope you keep going and inspire others to look into the evidence and explore. Can understand where people are coming from though, Dr. Carrier I think is a great speaker and does a good job at getting people to think critically. It is a lot to ask for, but as Dr. James White said to everyone in his debate with Dr. Price, follow the evidence where it leads. :) Cheers.
Is Bass building a book fort at the table?
The more books he has, the smarter he looks. Is it not working?
It was pretty cringe to watch him pull books down like "this dude wrote this book so I win"
The simple answer is 'NO'!!!!
There are no reliable sources for the Resurrection of Jesus!!!
Every possible answer is contingent on another possible alternative answer.
If he did not rise from the dead then why did the Romans not just drag his body around the city to shut down Christianity? Also why was the tomb empty if he didn’t rise from the dead ?
Here's a question. What are the odds that at least one movement in all history would explode into a worldwide movement based on a supposed miraculous event? Given the sheer extent of human history and the vast number of religious movements ever attempted, it is totally plausible that eventually history would poop out the right sequence of events for this to happen.
Someone always rolls the bunco.
Islam is another example of a religion exploding into popularity under the right circumstances
Very faintly in the background there is like some Lynyrd Skynyrd or something playing.
Great debate. I enjoyed that the overall vibe was positive despite such disagreement (although debates are also fun when they get heated.)
As someone who grew up in Wisconsin I can tell you with extreme confidence there is rarely a time you are more than a few feet away from a beer or hearing a Lynyrd Skynyrd song.
Carrier with the W
Frankly if Christianity is only half of the world's religion then that is not successful.. If the God of Christianity is the One True God.. then you'd think this God would make it clear to the entirety of his creation That He's the One... so it's a legitimate question why Jesus only showed up to a very small population to get the message across. If the second coming has Jesus appearing to the Entire world, why didn't he start out that way?
Excellent point, just do it right the first time.
Lmfao. What a sore loser.
At 1:53:00 they ask about a figure the persecuted a religion then became a big figure in it. In Islam that is the story of Omar who became the second Caliph after Muhammad. Actually many other prosecutors of Muslims came to believe in the religion later and became important figures. Khalid ibn Al Waleed is another example.
Paul was a liar.
How did paganism get wiped out? Through a complex set of political, sociological, and religious dominoes falling to the stresses of the Roman Empire.
I was a Christian for 33 years and converted to a non-believer (atheist) about 37 years ago and never looked back.
Willie Van Straaten honest question--why?
@@rangersNHL "Willie Van Straaten honest question--why?
"
I will try to be brief. The history of religion and in this case specifically Christianity really raised many concerns about religiosity, its origins and diversity, its spread and its God interpretation to new and better knowledge. God gives different messages to different denominations and preachers.
Origins: Many ancient gods that people believed in with overlapping laws and practices from that time.
Today still more than 4 200 gods worshipped and each believes that their god is the true God.
Spread: Mostly by force, war and indoctrination to control, especially in the new world.
Actions: It has been estimated that tens of thousands of people were executed for witchcraft in Europe and the American colonies over several hundred years. Although it is not possible to ascertain the exact number, modern scholars estimate around 40,000-50,000. Common methods of execution for convicted witches were hanging, drowning and burning. Burning was often favoured, particularly in Europe, as it was considered a more painful way to die.[5] Prosecutors in the American colonies generally preferred hanging in cases of witchcraft.
New and better knowledge is Heresy :
Copernicus and the church were at odds over his development of the heliocentric theory, a principle that disputed the widely held belief that Earth was the centre of the universe. The Roman Inquisition in 1615, on Galileo, which concluded that heliocentrism was "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture. God spoke to them and gave them guidance.
God gives different messages to different denominations and preachers. More than 33 000 Christian denomination, all interpreting the Bible and the religious concepts differently and at the same time criticising and condemns those that believe differently. I am watching many debates and preaching’s on TH-cam about many religion and Christianity and find it very amusing how gullible people are. They all enthusiastically and with conviction defend their own perspectives.
This, a few reasons, in short. I do not want to overload you with my history and my path to rejecting religion. Thanks for asking.
2:17:00 the moderator allowed Bass to interrupt and talk all through Carrier's presentation and all throughout the video
Yikes believers are blinded
When was this debate held? It's a good idea to put this information, and where the debate was held, in the introductory information above.
Thanks. Will do. I am still in the process of uploading all my videos. It was held March 19, 2016 in Milwaukee.
@@drjustinbass2775 , thank you for a great debate.
Why Carrier says that Acts lies about the history of Paul that puts him in Jerusalem when Paul himself says that no one saw him in Jerusalem 54:37 ?? Can someone explain ?
In Milwaukee 2016. If you listen to the context clues of election (President)
@@drjustinbass2775 Hi brother. I am a fellow Trinitarian brother and I have been trying to contact regarding your book "Bedrock of Christianity" but have had no success. So Im glad I found this comment. If possible, can you please email me: forthegloryofgod05@gmail.com so I can discuss details regarding book. Thank you!
What do believers believe, an historical person or just a concept ? It doesn't realy matter what institutes actually confess or confirm. They will follow the peoples choice, maybe centuries later. Howmany catholics do believe the official doctrines of their church, or even know what they contain ?
Moderator dude was more interested in giving his opinions and getting in the way of good discussion than being a good moderator. Drove me crazy every time he stopped the convo just when it was getting good.
Yes!! And, in the Q&A, stops them answering questions... so more people can ask questions. 🤦🏿♂️
Take a drink every time Ehrman gets mentioned.
Justin you are brave posting this but bravo......
Another stupid wanker.
@@Itsatz0 who?
@@jonfromtheuk467 You, of course. Who else around here is calling this guy "Brave." Well, maybe "brave" is the right word. It takes a lot of nerve to feed people this garbage.
@@Itsatz0 eh? so you call ME a wanker for pointing out he was brave ( but stupid) for posting a debate when he was thoroughly demolished? I would have buried it myself , but hey, thanks for the pleasantry.
@@jonfromtheuk467 No, I called you wanker because you are a Brit. If you were American I'd call you a sucker. But frankly, after rereading your post and reading your comment, you maybe cynically mocking him. After all, it's obvious he doesn't believe what he says either. How do you say "bullshit" in Britain?
Guarantee...if Jesus did appear to everyone including carrier, he would still deny the resurrection.
Justin uses a logical fallacy called "appeal to popularity". That makes me very wary of his judgement. Does he Believe Muhammad went to heaven on a flying horse? Does he believe Brahma created the universe? Both of those beliefs are very popular.
The gist of Bass' argument: the bible is true because the bible says it's true. In other words: one massive logical fallacy.
How very shallow and prejudiced of you. If the Bible is proven to be reliable, and it is, then it can be used as evidence. Read that again because I doubt it’s registered with you.
Dr. Carrier crushes Bass in this debate. Believing in ancient fables via Blind Faith which have many modern parallels which we don’t accept just exposes Gullibility, Blind Faith and religious Delusion in Bronze age Pious fiction fables. Debates such as this just bring out into mainstream the fictional viewpoints and worldview of modern christians. How much longer before christianity becomes just another pagan mythology is not certain but debates like this help further the momentum and exposure of religious Delusion and Blind Faith. Excellent work Dr. Carrier!!!
hifastflyer, the man has no support among scholars regarding the Jesus myth theory. Sad that uneducated people are listening to the flesh. He is of the lunatic fringe
@@michaelbrickley2443 Except there are now over a dozen PhDs whom now support the Jesus Myth theory and its rapidly gaining traction as theism FAILS. CARRIER lists the scholars on his blog.
hifastflyer, having received numerous miracles and Yahweh making himself manifest to me, your so called PhD’s hold no sway over me or the truth. Carrier is delusional. I know it to be true and you can follow him straight to hell for all I care. You are following a fool. 12? That’s a small number in the world of 8 billion & souls
@@michaelbrickley2443 Youre a grown adult who still believes in angels and demons and that a dead fuy came back to life. Youre in no position to be calling anyone delusional.
@@michaelbrickley2443 Allah loves you
Dang. Doesn’t actually get going till 17:55.
1. Paul says Jesus _"appeared"_ to him - 1 Cor 15:8.
2. The appearance to Paul was a "vision" or "revelation" from heaven - Acts 26:19 cf. Gal. 1:16.*
3. Paul uses his vision/revelation from heaven as a "resurrection appearance" - 1 Cor 15:5-8.
4. Therefore, visions/revelations from heaven counted as "resurrection appearances."
* - Note that by "vision/revelation" I mean it was not a physical encounter with a revived corpse that could be touched. Rather, the Risen Jesus was *located in heaven* and was spiritually revealed to Paul (Gal. 1:16) in some sort of subjective spiritual way. Paul is the earliest and only firsthand source written by someone who claimed to have "seen" Jesus and is therefore a more reliable witness than any of the gospel data. Appealing to the later gospels is fallacious because those aren't firsthand sources. Rather, they are later unverified claims by non-eyewitnesses claiming what the disciples saw in third person. Each account grows more fantastic in detail in regards to how the Risen Jesus was experienced (consistent with embellishment) and the accounts are disputed in regards to their historical claims and authorship. Paul is the only undisputed and verified firsthand source. He makes no distinction between the "appearances" mentioned in 1 Cor 15:5-8.
He makes a clear distinction in 1 Corinthians 15:6 when he says “ most of whom are still living” making it very clear the risen Christ in body form was appearing to these people in the flesh. Also yes Paul never saw the risen Christ before he went to heaven Bc he was persecuting Christians before seeing Christ on his way to Damascus in acts 9. Also Paul quotes from the Gospel of Luke in 1 Timothy 5:18 which makes it clear that the Gospels were in fact verifiable first hand accounts and truly scripture.
@@smoovemove3988 Paul makes no semantic distinction between the appearance to him and the appearances to the others. The appearance to Paul was a vision so you can't claim the appearances to the others were more physical than Paul's experience. Was that the appearance to the 500 which the gospels and Acts forgot to mention? Also, Paul didn't write 1 Tim.
Zeus loves you all.
Nothing Jesus would have said would have been new. Anything he ever said was already said in the Gita thousands of years before
This is your brain, on religion
"All we know is something definitely happened..." Smfh
Dr. Bass keeps saying christianity is unique but doesnt describe how, and the little description he does give is easily refuted, which he doesnt seem to grasp. Keeps going to the bible as evidence, even though its explained in numerous ways how its not reliable. Perfect example is when at the start Carrier explains how Acts (i believe its this one) is not a truthful book because it straight up lies about Pauls life, but then Bass goes right back to using it as evidence. And Im curious about this, but Bass claims 530+ witnesses to the resurrection, most Ive previously heard was 43 i believe. Where do these numbers come from?
I lost my faith in a historical Jesus after this. Maybe Richard can debaptize me?
Jesus is real
Read HistoryForAtheists to see an atheist debunk Carrier’s fringe arguments. Jesus existed whether fringe mythicists like it or not. All they care about is religion not being true, that’s it.
Putting emphasis at the end of every single sentence means you're wrong.
I don't think thats necessarily *true*. But in this case...yeah.
If Bass isn't a true believer, then he's just a guy with a job making a living out of lying. If he's a true believer then he's bound in Christ to follow Him through belief and faith which are not evidence of truth. Either way his argument is vain having no proof of his claims. Every thing that exist has evidence of it's self. Only they who claim there is a god needs to prove with real evidence of god's existence beyond their belief and faith. If god wants us to know him, and love and follow in his ways, he should do it through our five sense's' which he should know is the only way humans connect to the knowledge of things, such as evidence and truth, which is our learning curve.
Calling Jesus the "perfect humanist" would be more valid if he had had bigger issues with slavery - He was pretty dope though, "perfect" is just stretching it.
a fairy tale preacher vs a serious scholar, guess who is who
Have to tip my hat to Bass for uploading this video on his channel despite the debate not going in his favour. Thanks!
That suggests Dr. Bass thinks he won.
Exactly. I guess it's because there are enough believers hearing him that are already well indoctrinated couldn't rote for Mr. Carrier.
Did you ever consider that he uploaded it for educational purposes rather than thinking he won? Also, leaving that aside, he absolutely won. He made a case that was clear, simple and cohesive. He provided in-depth rebuttals to Carrier and addressed all his points and all the questions from the audience. He always backed up his arguments with a presentation. Carrier only made assertions, he didn’t cite his sources apart from his book (I wonder why?), he made speculations and conjecture and a few times he dodged the main points of the rebuttal as well as audience questions and attacked it from a completely different perspective. For example, when talking about Galatians 1:16, instead of addressing the fact that Paul is talking about Christ being revealed inside him (meaning how his personality was changed), he focused on the Arabia reference missing. Justin Bass is actually an employed professor of New Testament studies whilst Carrier is an unemployed blogger.
A "resurrection size hole in history?" Wow, way to overreach and overstate your case.
In the most relevant sports analogy I can think of for this debate, Justin bass would be the Washington generals
Really good job, Dr. Bass, pointing out the multiple times Dr. Carrier was being very "creative" with his conclusions.
The worst part of the debate was the long long commercial at the beginning.....not just the musical video but everything about the group and its members and meetup and finding a friend and blah blah blah.
Richard's arguments goes as follow; Some one made that story up and went with it, we can't believe this stuff there's just not enough evidence, we don't know for sure, it's probably not true..
Pretty much. Justin's argument: If you take the bible as fact, it proves itself. Ta da!
I'm only a few minutes into the apologist's speech and the amount of lying he's managed to make during the time when presenting the sources is incredible. Why do all these people have to twist facts and manipulate others world view? Intellectual dishonesty all along.
Does anyone know why Carrier calls 2 Corinthians "Two Corinthians" instead of "Second Corinthians"? I assume this is intentional.
Just like Trump calls it.
Cause he doesn't go to the mass, he only ever read it in the book, and the book just says 2Cor. This is also faster when you read to yourself
@Darn Right Trump is a brilliant Christian scholar
@@johncarroll772 man, time flies, i wrote this comment 3 years ago, but just now I asked chatGPT and it tells me that it's just academic convention to say "two corinthians" and cites examples of other scholars saying the "two" instead of "second"
Richard Carrier owns. Was that Atheist Underground I saw in there?👍
only 250 views? i know people from my place are ignorant mass but whole world??
Nice and yes
What completely undermines the creed....according to scripture, no reference to eye witness or word of mouth it's all according to scripture. Scripture is where they got the details from and the inspiration.
How does compassion leads to enlightment?
Imagine you are standing on the moon alone. Now imagine there is no earth and your landing pod is gone. You might still have self compassion.
OMG, it is incredible how these apologetic arguments take on a life of their own. The problem is, the 5 facts are bunko shamoko, the 5 "independent" sources aren't independent, and the "L" source is purely hypothetical (maybe even imaginary). And who are you kidding with a "creed" that dates to two years after the supposed crucifixion and resurrection.
Old Man Dan, wow....your head is so stuck in your cadaver if you believe that.
Dd S, do the homework before you make these pronouncements. Read Dr. Richard Bauckhams’ book, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses
Justin's discussion is simply standard verbage that's used to assure "believers" and really has very little content to it.
Perhaps the only seemingly substantial argument might be why did Paul go through a transition assuming that there is this historical figure Paul and that he went through a transition.
The legend of thr dajaal in islam is proof people who were once against islam converted.
he mentions christians is the largest religion but thats a technically there are so many big splits that I'd say they are only related by a common base like jews, christians , and muslims have a common base but our quite different
off the bat first Jesus if he existed was a Jew and worked for human suffering etc but was not part thereof any other church or religion at 23:40
Justin's use of the "successful movement" argument ....well, I guess he has a lot of explaining to do with Muhammad and Joseph Smith...😖
Admittedly I am finding something more on par with a twelve-year-old, 6th grade sort of "this was my weekend" level of presentation...
Yeah, I think he's making a big deal out of it
Its interesting that Bass says, "You must follow the evidence where it leads." We can see he's definitely not willing to do that. Every time the evidence leads to somewhere he doesn't want to go he will not follow it. He has put so much of his life into this religion, it's a big part of his life, his identity. He does not want the truth, like all Christians he desires the lie. He's in too deep and to admit that there is no evidence and that it's all BS would be crushing to him. No, Christianity is not a copy of the mystery religions. It is a mystery religion! But Bass is right it is unique, in the other mystery religions they don't place emphasis on the god being an actual person. It's the esoteric knowledge you gain from the story that you must gain through initiation that's important. Uninitiated persons don't pay attention to the literal story because it makes no sense. With Christianity they reverse it, you don't have to put in the work to find the esoteric knowledge. They say that the literal story is true, that's why they prop up Jesus as a real person at every turn, regardless of evidence to the contrary, because he has to be real to make this crazy story work. But it doesn't work. God sacrifices himself to himself for a problem he created himself??? Does this make any sense to you? What is Jesus/God saving you from? The Christian God is what you're being saved from. Worship me or I will torture you for eternity! This is not a loving benevolent God and I'm no bodies whipped puppy! I feel sorry for you Mr. Bass and those like you.
Meh. I don't think intellectual Christians would have so much of an issue, even Bass himself says there is a secular humanistic perspective to still consider Jesus as the Michael Jordan of compassion. If anything, if a Christian were to be completely, without a shadow of a doubt, shown that Jesus was never real, but a myth they would be maybe sad, but ultimately understand the underlying philosophies are great guidelines for a kind and compassionate life and continue on and probably end up like with a Jordan Peterson type mindset on religion. I know I'd probably just practice Kabbalah for the heck of it and move on lol.
Randy Taylor, no, you refuse to follow the evidence. You follow Carrier because it shirs your flesh desires
@@michaelbrickley2443 That is an ad hominem, not an intelligent response. It can easily be turned back on you. You believe the Bible because you're scared of what the evil Yahweh is going to do to you if you reject Jesus. Not a compelling argument, is it?
Sounds like self-reflection 1:15
Oh man. Justin got smoked. This is pretty embarrassing. Better prep... Luck next time?
mormons did not leave the faith they left joseph
Fast forward past the first 19 minutes (nothing but filler).
Everyday Christian ideology melts like wax. Only the stupid, pathetic and those who prey on them, say there is any substance to it.
A 5yr old could tell if these stories in the Bible are myth🙄
So "Jesus" credits AMEN RA, the Egyptian sun god for his wisdom, then calls himself Lucifer in Revelation... incredible.
one speaks like a preacher pretending being scholar, the other guy the other way around, guess who is each one
OK, as a Christian theist, I observe Justin's opening has lots of great marketing - lots of hype... I don't think that bodes well.... (especially if the Ehrman debate is any indication...😖😪)
Updates to follow...
OK Justin just ran through his 5 "facts" from those so called independent sources...😖
Rats - the same old meaningless, shallow drivel that we've heard a 1000 times before...😪
Oh well, I will listen to Richard to get some genuine scholarship I expect.
Richard destroyed the debate within the first 6 minutes. Really nothing anyone could do after that
Santos Bonacci would kill this literal Jesus debate
Did Carrier look like he needed any help to you?
Justin's big gun argument seems to simply rely on the majority of scholarship... as if 10,000 time 0 equals anything other than 0....😖
I suggest Justin take a quick refresher course in basic arithmetic.
Another word for moderator should be annoying interrupters.
Mickey mouse died for our sins and then resurrected. There are twenty sources for this, just to mention a few, Donald Duck in at least three places, and a major movement created to believe that Mickey was true and the savior😂
I think I’ll call you “King Straw Man”. We know from every source that Mickey Mouse is fictional, same with Donald Duck, and there aren’t any movements that follow this. You’re just another troll, no one to take seriously.
Three hours to say, "no there isn't."