Origen and Universalism - David Bentley Hart
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- David Bentley Hart, author of The Story of Christianity, talks about the influence of Origen in the early church and beyond.
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Beautiful and when He is "All in All" He isn't torturing Himself in fire, He does not find pleasure in the death alone of the wicked, and He said He will make "Everything beautiful in its time" that's who our creator is, God is Love and Love never fails.
Dr. Hart, I am a former Roman Catholic and now currently Eastern Orthodox catechumen. I have obsessive compulsive disorder and have been obsessed with Hell and tormented by thoughts of it for my entire life, to the point that it takes time away from my days in which I could loving my neighbors. Would you please pray for me? I don't know whether I agree with your universalist view or not, but I certainly hope you are correct and respect you very much, as well as think of you fondly when you come up in discussion. My name is James.
His mercy endures forever! I'll pray for you also.
god be with you, brother
Hello James! I have also struggled with OCD (scrupulism in my case). Have you seen a therapist about this or have taken medication? There are certainly a lot of blogs and websites that you can read to help you feel less alone with your thoughts. But I also feel like the more I try to solve the problem, the worse it gets. Because trying to solve it feeds into it somehow. Only a stronger faith in God that all is forgiven, and jas been forgiven since the foundations of the world, has helped and also led me to universalism. I don't know what your path is, but I pray that God reveals His heart to you. Perfect love casts out all fear.
1 Timothy 4:10 God is the savior of all men especially of those who believe. Hell and hardships in this life are God’s discipline (Hebrews 12:7) meant to bring us back to His love not for punishment. Look up Buchanan Hope beyond Hell shows that eternal is mistranslated it is Aeon in Greek which really means for an age. A thorough study shows this and the current teachings of hell were originally taught to keep control over the people. Gods love is so deep. You are deeply loved brother and you don’t need to do anything for this salvation it is free
praying for you
The best takeaway by far has to be the quote: "Origen's universalism wasn't a universalism in search of an exegesis, but just the opposite."
Matthew 18:6
Love never fails! His mercy endures forever..
Nothing but love for David and his infamous screen wall in the background haha!
I was arguing with a Pentecostal recently who was defending the idea that in the end the very great majority of humanity will be handed over to a kingdom governed by demons, who would be given licence to freely torture every lost soul forever, without end. This, they argued, was a reasonable conclusion to the cosmic story.
They then exhorted me to start worshipping this deity.
I cannot fathom how people are able to think this way. It's beyond disturbing.
Which deity?
When I survey popular expressions of Christianity here in America (i.e. Pentecostal, Evangelical), and I consider that most of these worshippers don't know and couldn't care less about Origen and Gregory of Nyssa...well, it's heartbreaking, and doesn't bode well for the future.
Jesus conquers death and hell and reconciles all things to himself. And God is love , God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all
@@engineeredtruths8935 The deity who omnisciently set this whole scenario in motion.
The average american evangelical thinks there were no christians on earth between the death of the apostles and the birth of Jonathan Edwards.@paulfischer288
Can we expect some fuller version of this (and perhaps other) interview[s]?
Thanks again (and again) for doing this!🤗
the interview wasn't done in a way that was meant to be posted in full. There were lots of pauses, going off topic about things, etc. If people do still want the full interview after I have finished editing it in all the ways I plan to (which will make for more interesting videos), I may ask DBH if he's alright with me posting it
God in his wisdom knew that everybody would never be on the same page, that's why he formed his wonderful plan before the foundation of the world.!!!!
Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
Propitiation or Expiation?
@@linjicakonikon7666How could sin be propitiated without being expiated.
I am a Christian Universalist, and yes, "aeon" is the key. That's why "eternal" life and "eternal" punisment don't have to be the same length of time at all. It even works with Calvinism: both the elect and the reprobate are saved, only the reprobate don't know it. The elect get to start living the Godly life (warm, friendly, joyous, peaceful, in full fellowship with Jesus) NOW; the reprobate have to keep living life in the prison of the flesh ("ainion punishment" - just punishment for a just period of time). "Well, if everybody's going to be saved in the end, why not sin it up now?" Paul handles that question better than I can in Romans 6. Bottom line: "You're already saved by the grace of God" is Good News indeed, wheras "Yer gunta burn in Hell forever" - eh, not so much.
(My favorite denomination is also probably the tinest: the Primitive Baptist Universalists, or "No Hellers," located in a small area of the southern Appalachians in the US. Wikipedia them. If there were a congregation near me, I would join it immediately. Salvation is of the Lord!
Hello. I think this comment of yours causes confusion, sir. Origen never said that all are saved, only that all would be saved. I do suppose you understand the difference
@AlphaStudios-lh1rz I do, but it seems a distinction without a difference if Christians do their job of sharing the good news: that because of God's loving nature, and Jesus's life sacrifice, we will all be saved.
The fly in the ointment is the misunderstanding of those who say that God is loving, but he is also just, and therefore must punish sin. This is precisely the problem solved by the Cross. "But you must believe in him by faith, and accept the gift of salvation." That makes man's choice the deciding factor in salvation. Jesus is not merely a potential savior, conditional on man's willing participation; he is an actual Savior, who reaches down into the lake to pull up those with little faith.
@@nerowolfe929 All CAN be saved indeed but I don't see it as guaranteed, and neither did Origen
@AlphaStudios-lh1rz All right, I see your Origen and raise you a Karl Barth. To avoid tedious typing, I refer you to his Wikipedia article (unless you already know Barth), and particularly the sections on Election and Salvation ( no need in this forum to go through the entirety of Church Dogmatics!). If God desires ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, then, simply, that is what will happen. As I see it, it comes down to either the HOPE that all will be saved, or we descend into the darkest depths of Calvinism and the "secret" will of God. With all due respect to Calvin, that dog won't hunt, and Barth rightly rejects it. His rejection of Universalism seems half- hearted at best: to quote from the article: "Karl Barth denied that he was a Universalist: "I do not believe in Universalism, but I do believe in Jesus Christ, reconciler of all"..."Barth asserted that eternal salvation for everyone...is not just an open question but should be hoped for by Christians as a matter of grace." And so I do.
@@nerowolfe929 Origen was the most respect church father during his lifetime.
Calvin was a heretick.
Interestingly, Origen stated in Justinian, Ep ad Mena, ( Mansi, 1X, 524) "God the Father, since He embraces all things, touches all things that exists....The Son is INFERIOR in relation to the Son....for he is SUBORDINATE to the Father. The Holy Spirit is still LOWER in Degree". Bit of a puzzle for the 'trinity' doctrine dont you think? ( Origen at least here shows preference to Holy scripture at 1 Corinthians 11:3 & 1 Cor 15:28) rather than pandering to greek philosophers which most of the post 2nd century 'church fathers' did
Reply
"Pandering to Greek philosphers" IS the really big problem right there. For the same reason, I'm mighty skeptical about the "eternal soul," and am pert near ready to dump it over the side. A "soul" is a "nephesh," and a nephesh is a living, ALIVE creature.I prefer the Jewish Ha Olam, into which we will be resurrected from Sheol. (That's the place of soul sleep for you rowdies in the back).
1 Corinthians 15:20-28
Yes. If something is supposed to be taken literally in the Bible, then it is these verses that you brought up.
Does this brother ever explain anything to us as if we're 7?
"When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."
Nope. Never.
In DBHs own words “ More is more..” lol
@@StreetsOfVancouverChannel childishness takes verses out of context.
So many of the fathers gave Origen shit. Sad…
And many Christian’s still do to this day!!!
I’m sorry Dr Hart but can you please explain to me how serial killers and rapists get to Heaven without the need to repent?
You have deeply misunderstood Christian universalism if you think that is what he is arguing. I am fairly certain you have not actually read his book, correct?
The background synth is unnecessary and distracting.
Yeah, I though there was something wrong with my bathroom fan, lol.
Sorry about that, I'll be sure not to use that track in future videos 😬
@@LoveUnrelenting Sorry, what I really mean is that it's not necessary to have a musical score for this sort of content. Ne need to 'enhance' the interview or statement. In my opinion.
@@MyklCarlton I think music has helped some of the other videos be a little more exciting, but if not, I hope the interviews are still useful for some people 🙂
I agree. Love the content, but the background noise is not only unnecessary it subtracts from the experience. Don't mean to be harsh but I want to be honest. It makes it overly sentimental, trite, and tacky. Just let his words speak for themselves. What he says is beautiful. Thanks for the wonderful videos. Constructive criticism: sometimes less is more.
Gnosticism seems like a lot of gobbledygook to me. But, hey, if it floats your spiritual boat why then paddle away.
Please ace that unnecessary, indeed distracting, background music.
Apokatastasis is attrative and sounds beautiful but it's wrong and unbiblical. It destroys Christianity's foundation: FREEWILL. It also results in complacency of people. If ultimately I go to heaven no matter how evil I am, then no need for me to act good. They say, you'll pay for your evilness in the next aeon! I would answer: it's ok I know my ultimate destination, heaven. Even Satan goes to heaven right? So why bother to act good. There is no eternal hell. That's very wrong and unbiblical. The Bible is clear there will be eternal hell.
I think you have the wrong idea of universalism. I think through apokestasis they go through Jesus and they will seek correction and redemption as they had a chance to do it on earth.
Ahh here we are. Exactly for people like you which are thinking they can live how they want while going to heaven are those who have a twisted mind because they avoid sin out of fear being punished and not because they love God FREELY.
I think someone who thinks they can sin because they get saved anyway would be those who actually deserved punishment. Why is it that you didnt conclude its better to live according to gods will because he IS so good and saves everyone. Thats why I would live according to his will
if I assume universalism.
Yeah I can not think a man that doesnt want to go to hell by his free will. Very logical. This is just closing ur eyes boş nobody wants to go to hell or reject God in their heart.
@@thecarlitosshow7687Ask Paul (Romans 6). He's way ahead of you there.
@@levimark548 are you a universalist?
Origen was Gnostic and did not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. He was from a exclusive club in Alexandria, Egypt who took the original manuscripts from the true disciples of Jesus in Antioch and corrupted them. The Latin Vulgate Bible came from these corrupted scriptures which the Roman Catholic Church uses.
That is not true. Origen believed Christ was both human and divine and wrote the first treatise of the Trinity. Origen did not embrace the dualism of Gnosticism and also rejected docetism.
But he also believed Christ had human nature (soul and body) (Son of Adam) and was existent from the beginning.
Jesus in the first three Gospels refers to himself exclusively as the son of Adam (son of man). It is only in John where Jesus refers to himself as Son of God. Origen composed at least thirty-two books of a commentary on the Gospel according to John.
So your theory is B.S. and based on no evidence whatsoever.
@@matthewkopp2391 You have believed a lie. You are deceived. If you really want to know the truth you will seek it out. Jesus said you would know the truth and the truth will make you free. Right now you are confused about Origen. He was a phony and a false convert to Christianity. He came from the Alexandria boys' club
of the Gnostics. Study history and find out more.
Wow, this is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
@@matthewkopp2391 You can always completely trust & have confidence in the words of The Lord Jesus Christ.
And it is so true of these end times before Jesus soon return again. "Take heed that no one deceive you."
(Matthew 24:4) All sorts of people picking all sorts of writings to try and justify their false beliefs & heresies.
"I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in His own name (ex. Origen)
him you will receive." (John 5:43)
Lol! Dude, don’t make us laugh.