What do YOU think should be the ruling here? 🧑🏫 A. Play is paused whilst they try to locate his lost timebanks B. It’s his own fault and play continues C. He is given new timebanks D. Other ruling..?
1. You can't pause the player from thinking about the hand, so pausing is a hard no! 2. To talk about and get him new time chips you still need to pause the play 3. Sorry bro, it's your own fault...dead hand city
Play should remain active while someone goes to find his timebanks. If timebanks aren't found, play is dead (fold). If the timebanks are found, take away the number of time banks used before an action is made, just as would have occurred if his timebanks were on the table. If not enough timebanks are remaining for the time before he made an action, play is also dead (fold) and all timebanks are taken.
B. If Shorr went all-in with a bluff and then Lonis, after being given more time by the TD called and won the hand then there would be all hell to pay! Play should immediately continue. Shorr won that easily but it could easily cause a 's' fight!
@@dylanmccaskill643 - nobody believes that 26 companies would put Hellmuth as as a paid "advisor" on the payroll. My guess is that they paid him a consulting fee whenever they need a job. Especially when there are far more popular pokers with an active social media presence and business they've created (e.g. Doug Polk). We're in the era of influencers, and Hellmuth isn't one. Hellmuth doesn't bring the following to your business like a Doug Polk would.
It's hard to protect your chips sometimes when you have shady dealers and players. I had my chips stolen twice at mandalay Bay in one week. I left for 5 minutes and came back and all my chips are gone. and both times the dealers and whole table didn't know what happened to my chips. Stay away from that dump.
I think the ruling should be to continue the clock while the timebanks are located. The clock can be paused to explain the scenario to the players, but then resumes afterward. The issue with pausing the clock indefinitely is that it effectively gives him more time to think about the hand (not that he'd do this intentionally, but in principle it's exploitable). I don't agree with auto-killing his hand either, although I appreciate the point that in a larger-field tournament it may not be practical to deal with this. If the timebanks are not located, or if he uses more time than the retrieved timebanks grant him, then his hand is dead. If it is found that he went over time, even after the fact, then the hand is dead and the pot (as is) should be awarded to Shorr *even if Lonis calls and either wins or loses the hand.* In other words, if he calls and wins, but it is found that he is "over time," he must still forfeit the pot (minus the river call) to Shorr. Similarly, if he calls beyond the allocated time and loses (for example, in this hand, but if no timebanks were found), his call is invalid and he does not need to pay the river bet. In this case, it would save him, but that's what would happen normally if over time. My position effectively doesn't penalize the player for forgetting the timebanks, and could potentially slow things down after the call while the floor sorts out if he indeed had timebanks and if went over or not, etc. I think that's fine, it's an ultra-rare situation that will almost never be repeated, and maybe there could be one warning per table or something.
At the end of the day what's the harm in looking for his timebank chips? If he doesn't have them his hand is dead, if he does then he should have to spend enough for his hand not to be dead I know it's fun and all to say a quippy line and end with "period" but that compromise has basically no draw backs
@mnm1273 because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but the TD should have killed the hand then looked for his time chips. You disagree. Ok.
@@dominicbiondi4097 "because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules" no it doesn't. He's using timebank chips, he shouldn't have a second more than the timebank chips he's trying to use allow. The issue is just 'if timebank chips are misplaced can he still use them as long as their existence is proven'
@@mnm1273 and if they don't find those chips, then what? It opens up a can of worms you don't want. But hey, you believe what you want, Dude. No skin off my nose.
If it's not on the table before the hand began it's not in play. Players can justifiably use a lack of time banks to pressure a player, so having extra time not in plain sight is not dissimilar from not having your big chips on display. Of course, before the next hand you can sort out the missing time banks. Floor could give the player a very short amount of time to announce their decision in circumstances where they didn't realise they're hand would be folded - this would be discretionary, but certainly reasonable where the floor can act quickly to the situation.
'Not on the table before the hand began it's not in play' is a double edged sword. If he had accidentally left a 10k chip on the other table is that not in play when he calls Shorr's all in? Tricky situation but I would let him use the timebanks he says he has and pause the hand when he has made a decision, if it turns out that he wasn't correct then his hand is folded whatever he decided, as it would have been from running out of time. Having time banks at the front is not required like high denomination chips afaik, so not sure having them out of view should be considered that relevant, if they had been behind his wall of chips and out of view from Shorr, I don't think Shorr would have any grounds to complain when he used one. (Maybe if Shorr had specifically asked if he had timebanks, but then the situation wouldn't have arisen anyway.)
@@mattc3581 if you left a chip on the other table and got felted you'd be out, regardless of whether your opponent had enough to put you all-in with that chip. If you've still got chips when the mistake is found the chip would be added back to your stack next hand.
Craziest thing I’ve ever seen. One time there was a casino employee tournament for a satellite to Vegas. 1 table, everyone knew everyone. Couple hands after break, we see the flop three ways. Guy bets 2000 and this lady who’s never played has just a stack of black chips and calls leaving a few behind. Other person calls. Turn comes and the guy bets 4000. Lady has 600 left and says call. She then proceeds to take 4 yellow chips out of her pocket. Everyone was pretty stunned and eventually she empties 15k more from her pockets. I was dealing and having never dealt before didn’t know what to do. Thankfully everyone understood she didn’t know and let the hand play out as normal.
@@truth_serumm Pretty sure a random average 1/2 live cash game player would have at least 14 bracelets if not more, if they played the same amount of volume and tournaments as Phil Hellmuth where for like 10 of those years the fields were ultra weak and like 200 players. It's not an accomplishment at all.
@@SurgingInsightbad take. There are plenty of pros who play the kind of volume that Hellmuth does, but still don’t have the hardware. Maybe you have something personal against Phil?
If i hear hellmuth say hes trying to be a billionare one more time.... his psychological case study has to be up there with the likes of manson, trump, sean hannity etc
The closest poker decisions are the ones that generate the most discussion and thought. Clearly Jesse considers calling and folding close in EV, so the theoretical cost of getting rushed into a snap decision because he lost his chips can't be much either. Of course the content producers want to make it sound like a momentous decision -- "for his tournament life!" -- and of course the tournament should be as fair as possible, but serious students of poker should treat it as a marginal decision either way that won't matter much over the course of his career.
In the interest of fairness, what’s on the table should play. In theory a persons time could be part of the reason an opponent makes a play. It’s pretty similar to having unknown chips behind.
Initially, I thought kill his hand until I saw what had happened. I agree with you, Jonathan. In a friendly tournament like this, get his time extensions.
Rule 1 in most poker rule books, including PTDA: "The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules."
yep, rule 1 is my favorite rule by far and most rulebooks in many different games and sports have a rule 1 equivalent, even if different sports have much higher thresholds for when it can be invoked
commodities like chips, cards, chip protectors, sign-out sheets need to be well-managed by the player.. this has nothing to do with the game of poker itself but it is relevant into being a responsible tournament player, which all players should be
The opponent WANTING HIM TO FIND THE TIME BANKS was a tell! I mean if I was him, I’d be yelling the hand is dead, and making a bigger deal about it just to get in his head!
I had KK pockets online and thought my time bank would automatically kick in, in a tournament. For whatever reason it didn't (don't know if it was settings, weird rule, or somehow my bank was out), but this wasn't my first hand and I just got folded automatically as if I had no time bank. What a bummer. This was WSOP PA real money. Was I missing something?
I think the fact that it's blind verse blind changes the dynamic a bit. Blind verse blind..top pair feels pretty good. And sure BB can have kings, but he can also have 9-10suited. Tough spot by the time the pot is so big on the river.
Haven't got to the end of the video yet, but your GTO tournament charts don't reflect the advice you just gave. At 40 bb effective, a BB raising range is TT-QQ, 55-66, ATo-AKo, KQo, QJs+ and JTs. I don't see any K2o, Q3o, etc.
OK Nick giving Hellmuth a hard time over his claims about being an advisor to a bunch of companies was pretty funny, but that aside the table conversations are so inane I wish they'd just mute the players. Unfortunately people keep telling poker tournaments and streams that they want to hear the table talk. Me, I'd much rather hear the hand analysis.
I like the timer but it needs to adjust for critical moments in the hand. Shorter times preflop and flop but longer for the turn and river and certainly more time when deciding for your tournament life.
So are you just supposed to get stacked every time on the SB with top pair mid kicker if someone has two pair or better? Surely BB will have that scenario some portion of the time, more than a random bluff for all in
This! I know it depends on the line both took down the streets but this is the type of call I think I'd make and I personally don't think I'm a great player lol. Whenever this happens to me, I feel like I made a blunder. How is this call supposed to be plus ev?
@@JasonJia909 In terms of just the chips he was getting pot odds that meant he only has to be winning 28% of the time to make this call correct. (I know chips value slightly differently in a tournament, but since we are talking +ev, on a basic level 28%). There are certainly missed draws or lower pairs with a draw that missed, even QQ, which Shorr could have turned into a bluff on the river. I don't know if that is 28% of Shorr's range but if the caller feels he has any read then he could certainly choose to make the call here.
@@mattc3581 ya maybe it's just hindsight but I feel like in these situations if I'm right 2/3 I'm not actually realizing 2x my stack in terms of actual equity or payout, but the 1/3 of the time I'm wrong (and it feels like it's more than 1/3) I legit lose all of my equity. Guess that's what ICM is all about haha
@@JasonJia909 Yeah, so as I said tournament the ICM value of the chips is slightly different. Cash game you can just say the odds of being right need to be better than the pot odds. But in a tournament the value of a big stack is not as much as the negative value of being out so you need better odds of being right to make it worth calling, how much better is very hard to model, but something to consider.
@mattc3581 yup yup exactly. Imo tourney is harder than cash haha. Plus variance is obv greater. But at least you don't have those days where you just run through multiple BIs within a span of a couple hours lol
@@dwaynerex7385 for you and the skan dude, Johnathan clearly explained it in regards with PokerGo studio's environment. How do yall doubt a top world-class player with good reputation bruh.
I realize he was telling the truth about the time bank; but I think they should kill his hand regardless. Then they should get him his time banks before next hand begins.
its a hard B. The whole point of time limits and time bank is for the game action not to last forever. if he gets anything elce its not fair to the rest of the players
I think if you award time banks it should be logged and used even if you forget them , they should automatically used , keeps the integrity of the game .
There is more to rules than just fairness or whatever... they also help to keep things moving, the tournament clock is ticking and it's not right to burn time for the other players at the table. Should have just called the hand dead and moved things along.
Aside from the reason for this video; I have heard that Phil Helmuth does charitable work with his money. I guess he's not a bad person. But doesn't he get a cramp from patting himself on the back 24/7? I can't remember a video where he doesn't feel obliged to tell everyone how great he is, often while putting down someone else. Jeez, Phil, your record and your play should speak for themselves, but you don't give them a chance. "I'm the greatest poker player in the known universe." Yeah, wonderful. We heard that a thousand times.
Pause the tournament, check how many he has used, give him all the timebanks he should have that he hasn't used yet. If he did use all his timebanks his hand is dead.
Ridiculous that this is even a "controversy." You have to PLAY the chip in time, right? And even if he HAD them, he doesn't seem to HAVE them anymore, because he couldn't even manage to keep up with them. Even if you could somehow pin it on tourney staff - like they're the ones moving the chips from table to table - it's still up to the player to notice in a timely fashion (preferably not when they're needed). The fact that anyone is even debating this is insane.
I had this exact thing happen to me, the floor ruled I lost my time bank chips because I forgot them from the old table. I didn't get them back, however they couldn't verify they were there because the floor cleaned up the table.
Not having the context (venue, knowing the player never uses time banks and surely has some available), my thought here is that he doesnt have the time banks with him, so you cant pretend that he does and hope he finds them later, but her clearly thought he had them so killing the hand without a chance to bet is unfair...best option, ask for decision now without extending the time.
If I was the dude with trips obviously I would want to give dude more time to hopefully call. But in the spirit of the game and the rules his hand was dead.
Deep in a tournament, I likely wouldn't have called that turn. He's oop, SPR is rapidly diminishing as the hand develops, & he only has top pair, mediocre kicker & a gutshot. So thats 4xQ, 2xK, 3x10 to improve to the 'nuts'. Shorr played it perfectly.
easy to say when you can see the hands. blind vs blind is hard to fold top pair when the opponent is very capable of turning a missed flush draw or the Ace of spades into a bluff.
Hand is dead but this isn’t your normal casino, this is poker go studios where everyone is someone in the poker community so I can see how they will bend the rules here.
You do understand that Lonis gets free extra time to think about the hand while the game is paused? You shouldn't be rewarded for such a mistake obviously
I think his hand should be dead. the time it takes for them to find his time bank chips is extra thinking time. It's also possible to get a read on your opponent - Shorr knows he's good, and if he was bluffing, I think he's more likely to say something about his hand being dead.
So, you think in your games, with your buddies, no one would lie. So people should try to find the missing time bank chips? But a general population of players are assumed to be liars, so the “no time bank chips, no extra time” rule should be enforced? Seems fair.
Imagine Shorr was bluffing, and this call stood.. I’d be livid if I was Shorr. Therefore, even if in this instance Lonis’ tournament life would have been saved and Shorr would have won less chips, I think Lonis’ hand should be dead. At the very least, going forward, I think general ruling should be that everyone’s responsible for their own time bank chips, and if you don’t have them infront of you during a hand, they aren’t valid.
On the flip side of things, everyone else at the table is now at a disadvantage because Shorr now has a lot more chips that he would not otherwise have because Lonis' hand should have been declared dead.
Assume he's telling the truth and check the other table/cameras. If you can verify, he gets his time banks back minus what he used. If you see he didn't have any left, if he folds, he gets a penalty. If he calls and is right, he gets a penalty and has to give the pot back to the person who should have won the hand.
You have to pay for your mistakes in poker. That's how you learn not to do it again. Nothing worse than to get penalized for a mistake, then watch a local get off Scott free for the same mistake because they all know each other and are friends. Bulls**t!
You're dead wrong...his hand should be dead in any instance. He should have seen he didn't have his cards before the time ended. It's no one elses fault he left them, if he did leave them. So you're saying he gets extra time to think while they go look and see? No, it's his fault and he should pay the penalty. Especially since he should have seen he was missing them beforehand. Harsh but the fairest way to deal with it. The rule is the rule and should NEVER be compromised under any circumstances
If I’m the floor I say, “Just play the hand as if you had them”, then go look for them. If I find them, I deduct whatever he used and give him the remainder. If I don’t, everyone else gets 2 extra chips or whatever he would have used.
I was playing a 5/10 plo game and someone came to the game and said he was 1k behind and the chips were on there way won a 3 way all in the chips were never on the way and they still let him keep the money at Philly live lol
The rule is: ""the best interest of the game is a top priority for decision-making, especially for floor people. In some cases, fairness may take precedence over technical rules. The floor person's decision is final."
![When GTO Poker Meets EXPLOIT! [Charlie Carrel vs Andy Stacks]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Sym6DP0Q-pU/mqdefault.jpg)
What do YOU think should be the ruling here? 🧑🏫
A. Play is paused whilst they try to locate his lost timebanks
B. It’s his own fault and play continues
C. He is given new timebanks
D. Other ruling..?
Lacking action by Lonis in any way, his hand is dead.
1. You can't pause the player from thinking about the hand, so pausing is a hard no!
2. To talk about and get him new time chips you still need to pause the play
3. Sorry bro, it's your own fault...dead hand city
Play should remain active while someone goes to find his timebanks. If timebanks aren't found, play is dead (fold). If the timebanks are found, take away the number of time banks used before an action is made, just as would have occurred if his timebanks were on the table. If not enough timebanks are remaining for the time before he made an action, play is also dead (fold) and all timebanks are taken.
Daniel Negreanu would have been shrieking "No participation trophies in my poker world!"
B. If Shorr went all-in with a bluff and then Lonis, after being given more time by the TD called and won the hand then there would be all hell to pay!
Play should immediately continue. Shorr won that easily but it could easily cause a 's' fight!
Schulman doing a great job of hiding his sarcasm in convo with Hellmuth hahahaha
The Nick Shulman/helmuth commentary is worth listening to outside of the poker hand.
"It's not that I don't believe you, it's more that I don't give a *bleep*." Had me dying
I honestly thought they were in the booth at first, I was so confused lol.
Honestly fucking hilarious
"We know..... We know..... We know"
“I just think you might be using the word ‘advisor’ liberally.” 😂
Hellmuth never fails to not be cringe af.
@@dylanmccaskill643 - nobody believes that 26 companies would put Hellmuth as as a paid "advisor" on the payroll. My guess is that they paid him a consulting fee whenever they need a job. Especially when there are far more popular pokers with an active social media presence and business they've created (e.g. Doug Polk). We're in the era of influencers, and Hellmuth isn't one. Hellmuth doesn't bring the following to your business like a Doug Polk would.
lmfao Schulman is trolling Helmuth so incredibly hard and Phil has no idea.
lmao schulman is too funny, "can you advise this spot for us?"
1. Always protect your chips
2. Always protect your cards
Newest rule 3. Always protect your time bank chips
It's hard to protect your chips sometimes when you have shady dealers and players. I had my chips stolen twice at mandalay Bay in one week. I left for 5 minutes and came back and all my chips are gone. and both times the dealers and whole table didn't know what happened to my chips. Stay away from that dump.
@@Jon-6969 yeah ok, like there aren't cameras...
@@Jon-6969Cool story
Got so wrapped up in Schulman/Hellmuth that I forgot we were analyzing an actual hand here
Love the back and forth between Nick and Phil. Nick is the man.
“It’s not that I don’t believe you, it’s more that I don’t give a…”
Nick is a real one 😂
Wow, I knew Hellmuth was full of himself, but he is going off here. Schulman at the end saying what everyone was thinking. 😂
I think the ruling should be to continue the clock while the timebanks are located. The clock can be paused to explain the scenario to the players, but then resumes afterward. The issue with pausing the clock indefinitely is that it effectively gives him more time to think about the hand (not that he'd do this intentionally, but in principle it's exploitable). I don't agree with auto-killing his hand either, although I appreciate the point that in a larger-field tournament it may not be practical to deal with this.
If the timebanks are not located, or if he uses more time than the retrieved timebanks grant him, then his hand is dead. If it is found that he went over time, even after the fact, then the hand is dead and the pot (as is) should be awarded to Shorr *even if Lonis calls and either wins or loses the hand.* In other words, if he calls and wins, but it is found that he is "over time," he must still forfeit the pot (minus the river call) to Shorr. Similarly, if he calls beyond the allocated time and loses (for example, in this hand, but if no timebanks were found), his call is invalid and he does not need to pay the river bet. In this case, it would save him, but that's what would happen normally if over time.
My position effectively doesn't penalize the player for forgetting the timebanks, and could potentially slow things down after the call while the floor sorts out if he indeed had timebanks and if went over or not, etc. I think that's fine, it's an ultra-rare situation that will almost never be repeated, and maybe there could be one warning per table or something.
It's the player's responsibility to keep track of his time chips. Period. Hand is dead.
At the end of the day what's the harm in looking for his timebank chips? If he doesn't have them his hand is dead, if he does then he should have to spend enough for his hand not to be dead
I know it's fun and all to say a quippy line and end with "period" but that compromise has basically no draw backs
@mnm1273 because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but the TD should have killed the hand then looked for his time chips. You disagree. Ok.
@@dominicbiondi4097 "because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules" no it doesn't. He's using timebank chips, he shouldn't have a second more than the timebank chips he's trying to use allow. The issue is just 'if timebank chips are misplaced can he still use them as long as their existence is proven'
@@mnm1273 and if they don't find those chips, then what? It opens up a can of worms you don't want. But hey, you believe what you want, Dude. No skin off my nose.
@@dominicbiondi4097 "and if they don't find those chips, then what? " as I said in my very first comment "If he doesn't have them his hand is dead"
If it's not on the table before the hand began it's not in play. Players can justifiably use a lack of time banks to pressure a player, so having extra time not in plain sight is not dissimilar from not having your big chips on display.
Of course, before the next hand you can sort out the missing time banks.
Floor could give the player a very short amount of time to announce their decision in circumstances where they didn't realise they're hand would be folded - this would be discretionary, but certainly reasonable where the floor can act quickly to the situation.
'Not on the table before the hand began it's not in play' is a double edged sword. If he had accidentally left a 10k chip on the other table is that not in play when he calls Shorr's all in?
Tricky situation but I would let him use the timebanks he says he has and pause the hand when he has made a decision, if it turns out that he wasn't correct then his hand is folded whatever he decided, as it would have been from running out of time.
Having time banks at the front is not required like high denomination chips afaik, so not sure having them out of view should be considered that relevant, if they had been behind his wall of chips and out of view from Shorr, I don't think Shorr would have any grounds to complain when he used one. (Maybe if Shorr had specifically asked if he had timebanks, but then the situation wouldn't have arisen anyway.)
I'm pretty sure that if he had left a chip on the other table that chip would be gone forever
@@mattc3581 if you left a chip on the other table and got felted you'd be out, regardless of whether your opponent had enough to put you all-in with that chip. If you've still got chips when the mistake is found the chip would be added back to your stack next hand.
Craziest thing I’ve ever seen. One time there was a casino employee tournament for a satellite to Vegas. 1 table, everyone knew everyone. Couple hands after break, we see the flop three ways. Guy bets 2000 and this lady who’s never played has just a stack of black chips and calls leaving a few behind. Other person calls. Turn comes and the guy bets 4000. Lady has 600 left and says call. She then proceeds to take 4 yellow chips out of her pocket. Everyone was pretty stunned and eventually she empties 15k more from her pockets. I was dealing and having never dealt before didn’t know what to do. Thankfully everyone understood she didn’t know and let the hand play out as normal.
That's absolutely hilarious and 10 times crazier than this video
You were lucky everyone at the table was forgiving
She knew what she was doing
@@colinpayne2081 I mean maybe not, if she's a table games dealer, and if she moved from another table, she might not understand the dynamics.
@@trevorc3063 she was a poker player . Not a dealer
Helmuth straight up cappin’
A. Give him a chance to find the time banks. If he finds them, charge him the search time. If he doesn't, invalidate his hand.
Phil Helmet is pathetic
WTF is Helmuth saying in this video. Jesus Christ do I have to take him serious cause of the holdem bracelets?
Funniest poker player of all time
If you don't believe him, all you have to do is ask Cary Katz.
How many bracelets do you have?
@@truth_serumm Pretty sure a random average 1/2 live cash game player would have at least 14 bracelets if not more, if they played the same amount of volume and tournaments as Phil Hellmuth where for like 10 of those years the fields were ultra weak and like 200 players. It's not an accomplishment at all.
@@SurgingInsightbad take. There are plenty of pros who play the kind of volume that Hellmuth does, but still don’t have the hardware. Maybe you have something personal against Phil?
If i hear hellmuth say hes trying to be a billionare one more time.... his psychological case study has to be up there with the likes of manson, trump, sean hannity etc
…lol…you might be right…that’s a trifecta of narcissism…
The closest poker decisions are the ones that generate the most discussion and thought. Clearly Jesse considers calling and folding close in EV, so the theoretical cost of getting rushed into a snap decision because he lost his chips can't be much either.
Of course the content producers want to make it sound like a momentous decision -- "for his tournament life!" -- and of course the tournament should be as fair as possible, but serious students of poker should treat it as a marginal decision either way that won't matter much over the course of his career.
In the interest of fairness, what’s on the table should play. In theory a persons time could be part of the reason an opponent makes a play.
It’s pretty similar to having unknown chips behind.
Initially, I thought kill his hand until I saw what had happened. I agree with you, Jonathan. In a friendly tournament like this, get his time extensions.
If he had the time banks then his hand should be live whether he's ahead or behind in the hand.
If he had none then it's an automatic dead hand.
Rule 1 in most poker rule books, including PTDA: "The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules."
THIS.
yep, rule 1 is my favorite rule by far and most rulebooks in many different games and sports have a rule 1 equivalent, even if different sports have much higher thresholds for when it can be invoked
No time chips then hand is dead, therefore his call is nullified, and he remains in tournament with 259k chips.
It’s reassuring to see top players making the same mistakes we do.
Considering your best friend is in this hand, we know you've already researched if your bf's opponent has time chips or not.
commodities like chips, cards, chip protectors, sign-out sheets need to be well-managed by the player.. this has nothing to do with the game of poker itself but it is relevant into being a responsible tournament player, which all players should be
So, how does Hellmuth plan to be a billionaire someday?
id give some coins for him to stfu
By having people tip him to STFU.
He won’t even sit with $100,000 at a cash game but claims he is the best.
If you can't hold it, you don't own it.
The opponent WANTING HIM TO FIND THE TIME BANKS was a tell! I mean if I was him, I’d be yelling the hand is dead, and making a bigger deal about it just to get in his head!
I had KK pockets online and thought my time bank would automatically kick in, in a tournament. For whatever reason it didn't (don't know if it was settings, weird rule, or somehow my bank was out), but this wasn't my first hand and I just got folded automatically as if I had no time bank. What a bummer. This was WSOP PA real money. Was I missing something?
Dear god Hellmuth is so insufferable.
Shannon should start arguing that the guy's hand is dead to angle him into a call haha
ah yes the guy who raises big preflop and bets all three streets for value, "surely he's bluffing and doesn't have my king with ten kicker beat"
pros will polarise like this, not your 1/2 nits
@@slowfuse even so, it was pretty thin
He's such an idiot, I would never call a hand that beats me!
@@slowfuse well some bluffs got there and also you block clubs, so i think its a pretty easy fold
I think the fact that it's blind verse blind changes the dynamic a bit. Blind verse blind..top pair feels pretty good. And sure BB can have kings, but he can also have 9-10suited. Tough spot by the time the pot is so big on the river.
he for sure whishes they didn't get flexible on him this time lol
Haven't got to the end of the video yet, but your GTO tournament charts don't reflect the advice you just gave. At 40 bb effective, a BB raising range is TT-QQ, 55-66, ATo-AKo, KQo, QJs+ and JTs. I don't see any K2o, Q3o, etc.
Vs. a SB limp, specifically.
OK Nick giving Hellmuth a hard time over his claims about being an advisor to a bunch of companies was pretty funny, but that aside the table conversations are so inane I wish they'd just mute the players.
Unfortunately people keep telling poker tournaments and streams that they want to hear the table talk. Me, I'd much rather hear the hand analysis.
I like the timer but it needs to adjust for critical moments in the hand. Shorter times preflop and flop but longer for the turn and river and certainly more time when deciding for your tournament life.
Time bank chips wouldn't be needed if the GTO Nerds didn't have 10 minutes of stalling when they already know their decision.
Love your content. Find it very helpful.
Awesome, thank you!
when J.L. said he had never seen something, i was scratching my head , what the hell has jl never seen?
So are you just supposed to get stacked every time on the SB with top pair mid kicker if someone has two pair or better? Surely BB will have that scenario some portion of the time, more than a random bluff for all in
This! I know it depends on the line both took down the streets but this is the type of call I think I'd make and I personally don't think I'm a great player lol. Whenever this happens to me, I feel like I made a blunder. How is this call supposed to be plus ev?
@@JasonJia909 In terms of just the chips he was getting pot odds that meant he only has to be winning 28% of the time to make this call correct. (I know chips value slightly differently in a tournament, but since we are talking +ev, on a basic level 28%).
There are certainly missed draws or lower pairs with a draw that missed, even QQ, which Shorr could have turned into a bluff on the river. I don't know if that is 28% of Shorr's range but if the caller feels he has any read then he could certainly choose to make the call here.
@@mattc3581 ya maybe it's just hindsight but I feel like in these situations if I'm right 2/3 I'm not actually realizing 2x my stack in terms of actual equity or payout, but the 1/3 of the time I'm wrong (and it feels like it's more than 1/3) I legit lose all of my equity. Guess that's what ICM is all about haha
@@JasonJia909 Yeah, so as I said tournament the ICM value of the chips is slightly different. Cash game you can just say the odds of being right need to be better than the pot odds. But in a tournament the value of a big stack is not as much as the negative value of being out so you need better odds of being right to make it worth calling, how much better is very hard to model, but something to consider.
@mattc3581 yup yup exactly. Imo tourney is harder than cash haha. Plus variance is obv greater. But at least you don't have those days where you just run through multiple BIs within a span of a couple hours lol
Give him 30 or 60 seconds and deal with time banks later. I think he got so stressed and confused that he made a mistake
He might have already used them though...people are sneaky in poker and some times forget.
That would be unfair if he didn't have the time banks at all, suddenly all players would be asking for an extra time bank
@@dwaynerex7385 for you and the skan dude, Johnathan clearly explained it in regards with PokerGo studio's environment. How do yall doubt a top world-class player with good reputation bruh.
I realize he was telling the truth about the time bank; but I think they should kill his hand regardless.
Then they should get him his time banks before next hand begins.
its a hard B. The whole point of time limits and time bank is for the game action not to last forever. if he gets anything elce its not fair to the rest of the players
I think if you award time banks it should be logged and used even if you forget them , they should automatically used , keeps the integrity of the game .
There is more to rules than just fairness or whatever... they also help to keep things moving, the tournament clock is ticking and it's not right to burn time for the other players at the table. Should have just called the hand dead and moved things along.
Aside from the reason for this video; I have heard that Phil Helmuth does charitable work with his money. I guess he's not a bad person. But doesn't he get a cramp from patting himself on the back 24/7? I can't remember a video where he doesn't feel obliged to tell everyone how great he is, often while putting down someone else. Jeez, Phil, your record and your play should speak for themselves, but you don't give them a chance. "I'm the greatest poker player in the known universe." Yeah, wonderful. We heard that a thousand times.
Pause the tournament, check how many he has used, give him all the timebanks he should have that he hasn't used yet. If he did use all his timebanks his hand is dead.
Ridiculous that this is even a "controversy." You have to PLAY the chip in time, right? And even if he HAD them, he doesn't seem to HAVE them anymore, because he couldn't even manage to keep up with them. Even if you could somehow pin it on tourney staff - like they're the ones moving the chips from table to table - it's still up to the player to notice in a timely fashion (preferably not when they're needed). The fact that anyone is even debating this is insane.
instead of worrying about where the time bank chips are just CALL or FOLD!
I had this exact thing happen to me, the floor ruled I lost my time bank chips because I forgot them from the old table. I didn't get them back, however they couldn't verify they were there because the floor cleaned up the table.
I could listen to Shulman bust chops all day
I’m like 95% sure Lonis is high af lol
Not having the context (venue, knowing the player never uses time banks and surely has some available), my thought here is that he doesnt have the time banks with him, so you cant pretend that he does and hope he finds them later, but her clearly thought he had them so killing the hand without a chance to bet is unfair...best option, ask for decision now without extending the time.
If I was the dude with trips obviously I would want to give dude more time to hopefully call. But in the spirit of the game and the rules his hand was dead.
Totally I'd pause, but the pause would come out of his time bank chips. He forgot them. Angle shooting should be a dead hand ofc.
Deep in a tournament, I likely wouldn't have called that turn. He's oop, SPR is rapidly diminishing as the hand develops, & he only has top pair, mediocre kicker & a gutshot. So thats 4xQ, 2xK, 3x10 to improve to the 'nuts'. Shorr played it perfectly.
So did they get him his time chips
If Phil was half as good in reality as he is in his own head, he’d be the best person in the history of the world😂
Can you believe how much helmuth talks about his own greatness, what a self righteous coconut
The huge error was making the call.
easy to say when you can see the hands. blind vs blind is hard to fold top pair when the opponent is very capable of turning a missed flush draw or the Ace of spades into a bluff.
Why didn’t he start looking for them when 10 seconds was announced? After the hand is already dead isn’t the time to say you don’t have them
Hand is dead but this isn’t your normal casino, this is poker go studios where everyone is someone in the poker community so I can see how they will bend the rules here.
Pause. Get the time bank chips. Then proceed
You do understand that Lonis gets free extra time to think about the hand while the game is paused? You shouldn't be rewarded for such a mistake obviously
@@pierrearr who cares? He made the bigger mistake of calling.
@@MannyGeeee I refuse to believe you're that dumb. The outcome of a single hand has nothing to do with making a correct ruling lol
I think his hand should be dead. the time it takes for them to find his time bank chips is extra thinking time. It's also possible to get a read on your opponent - Shorr knows he's good, and if he was bluffing, I think he's more likely to say something about his hand being dead.
If he is out of time bank chips the hand should be dead.
If he actually has them then deduct the time to find them. If he runs out either way then penalty
So, you think in your games, with your buddies, no one would lie. So people should try to find the missing time bank chips? But a general population of players are assumed to be liars, so the “no time bank chips, no extra time” rule should be enforced? Seems fair.
Imagine Shorr was bluffing, and this call stood.. I’d be livid if I was Shorr. Therefore, even if in this instance Lonis’ tournament life would have been saved and Shorr would have won less chips, I think Lonis’ hand should be dead. At the very least, going forward, I think general ruling should be that everyone’s responsible for their own time bank chips, and if you don’t have them infront of you during a hand, they aren’t valid.
On the flip side of things, everyone else at the table is now at a disadvantage because Shorr now has a lot more chips that he would not otherwise have because Lonis' hand should have been declared dead.
How do people forget timebanks? There litterally the size of chips, kept right next to ur chips. Do people forget chips too??
Nate Diaz at the table?
Assume he's telling the truth and check the other table/cameras. If you can verify, he gets his time banks back minus what he used. If you see he didn't have any left, if he folds, he gets a penalty. If he calls and is right, he gets a penalty and has to give the pot back to the person who should have won the hand.
Man. Thats a weird spot. You know it really affected him.
You have to pay for your mistakes in poker. That's how you learn not to do it again. Nothing worse than to get penalized for a mistake, then watch a local get off Scott free for the same mistake because they all know each other and are friends. Bulls**t!
Why didn't they come back with his time banks if they were left on the other table? They clearly wasn't
Hand should be DQ. Bring the cards or you lose them
You're dead wrong...his hand should be dead in any instance. He should have seen he didn't have his cards before the time ended. It's no one elses fault he left them, if he did leave them. So you're saying he gets extra time to think while they go look and see? No, it's his fault and he should pay the penalty. Especially since he should have seen he was missing them beforehand. Harsh but the fairest way to deal with it. The rule is the rule and should NEVER be compromised under any circumstances
My Gawd! Phil! SHUT UP!!
He didn't even check his pockets! That's where my TB chips go, bc they never fit in the rack. Tilt call = rail!🤮
Come on people his hand is obviously dead.
They need ban sunglasses at tournaments….who agrees? 😂
RAY ban them?
Does anyone else find Renka and Donnie's commentary unlistenable?
Remko in particular
Hand is dead. If it's not on the table, it's not in play.
If I’m the floor I say, “Just play the hand as if you had them”, then go look for them. If I find them, I deduct whatever he used and give him the remainder. If I don’t, everyone else gets 2 extra chips or whatever he would have used.
Fate was on his side because his dead hand would’ve saved him money.
I was playing a 5/10 plo game and someone came to the game and said he was 1k behind and the chips were on there way won a 3 way all in the chips were never on the way and they still let him keep the money at Philly live lol
AGAIN I agree with default if he didn't wait till after time was out. If I heard them right
Saved him a bunch of money.. auto fold saved his ass... well.. those chips tried..
Time expired before he started looking. Dead hand
Now everyone is gonna start leaving there time chips and getting more time
Dont make special contextual rules. One rule.
The rule is: ""the best interest of the game is a top priority for decision-making, especially for floor people. In some cases, fairness may take precedence over technical rules. The floor person's decision is final."
Personally, if you don’t have the time bank chips, sorry. It could set a precedent that you don’t want. Dead hand.
I say its on you to have timebanks in hand when the clocks runs out. You dont have them, too bad, hand dead.
I mean his hand should be dead right?? But at the same time, I think it’s a snap fold anyways
I think the biggest question is, how does Phil plan to make a billion?!
Speaking of mistakes I just misclicked fold when my opponent went all in and I had the nuts
Hand dead. Lucky too, he might have called.
Does Phil ever shut up?