To prevent the downward force flexing the rail assembly. The pawl could lock with the leading edge vertical and the point above the bottom of the slots. To achieve this a stop pin will need to be added above the pivot and to the right. The pawl will then stop against it when it is vertical with no downward wedging action. The pawl will need to be flipped over.
That would work. I also thought about minimizing the force by changing the shape and pivot point. The downward force is contained by the support but admittedly it adds another variable and a little error. Thanks, I might end up making you modification.
@@WinkysWorkshop I would definitely lower the pivot point so the pawl is at a much flatter angle (maybe 20 deg instead of 45, which is what you seem to have at present) and a larger diameter, close fitting pivot pin (maybe a dowel pin, the sort with a threaded hole for extraction) loctited into the base. I reckon it would also be worthwhile to chamfer the underside of the pawl flat, so the corner is 90 degrees, so it's less prone to taking dings.
@@Gottenhimfella I think the downward force is the biggest issue. A flat face on the pawl and a pin to limit its downward travel would be idea. And I agree, lower the pivot point
Mark if you don't think you are a very good cabinet maker then who makes all those beautiful wood projects, we have seen you make in your videos. I think your wood working is as good as I have ever seen.
Well thank you very much Terry. Yeah my woodworking has improved over the years. Mostly due to old age patience and a CAD program that does math for me. Still, I'd have a hard time making a live at it. The teacher of the class was amazing and fast.
Such an interesting idea. Your video does show “flex” in the way the ratchet “dog” is working. I am sure you will find a way to prevent that flex and make your sticks more repeatable. 👏👏👍😀
Very clever. Just watching you make the one part makes me think that this invention would benefit from either reversing the pawl's direction and lean, or by setting up so that the zero point of the part is at the opposite end of the part. This would give you a way to make the whole part without having to manually retract the pawl for each subsequent feature's stop. EG as currently configured, if the part's zero point were at the left end of the part, you could crank until the pawl falls into the notch, then reverse slightly to your stop point. After that feature is made, go forward through your story to the next feature's notch and reverse slightly to go up to that features true location, and so on. You get an easily indexed positioning of each feature without having to lift the pawl each time to move on to the next location.
That's a novel idea. It would work in a production shop where different priducts have their story sticks for repeat orders. More fun than CNC, what I call manual programing 😁
Mark in the old days before DRO tool makers used precision rods and dial indicators to set x and y dimensions. If you look on the table of a Bridgeport or BP clone mill you will see half round groves front and rear on the table for the rods to lay in. They were also used on Jig Bores. Sheetmetal stamping dies must be within .0002 on all hole locations combined. The dies that I worked on had 11 punches and die inserts the smallest being .032 diameter and the die made 100 strokes per minute. Some of the other dies ran at 500 strokes per minute. So they had to be near perfect. All this was done before DRO.
@@WinkysWorkshop The rods are adjusted to a pre determined length. (example center to center of holes.) The indicator is just a bumper to let you know when you have moved the table the exact distance. You could do the same thing with your Story Board concept. Another method that was used is die makers buttons. Its more than I should go into detail on here but it is another way to achieve perfect results.
I actually did this already. I needed to make 6 accurately placed snap ring grooves. It had adjustable stops on a threaded rod (clamping threaded lock collars).
Glad to see you trying Anchor Lube! I'm sure you will like it. Great video, sir! Please keep them coming. A note: I thought I noticed a slight movement in the pawl when it comes to a stop as if the mounting screw hole is too large. Maybe a tighter tolerance?
I believe you said that you had straighten the slotted bar that holds the story pole, after you did that the story pole looked like it was rocking. Do you think you should reslot the story pole holder so the story pole lays flat? It just looks like holder piece is flexing even after you put the adjustment screw in the bottom. Someone else brought up that the ratchet part might be moving a little in the mounting hole, maybe ream the hole to lose a bit of movement. I don’t know if you’ll try to make it a little tighter on the repeatability or not but just adding my thoughts. Thanks for the video, it’s another good idea.
I never straightened it. The rocking should not be an issue unless its inconsistant. The bottom support is keeping the bar the same distance from the dog. A commenter above (tates) made a very good point.
I didn’t really get what he was saying and I was thinking about how it was flexing. I went back and reread what he was saying and that does make sense. I think I had to many thoughts going on. lol See you next week!
Good evening Mark, You have too much deviation in the pawl screw. I would suggest you make a new screw and bore the pawl to size. Another suggestion is to take the lower guide support and machine a slot in it and then machine a brass wear strip that is.005 +/- above the steel. These changes should help with the deflection. Excellent work. Merry Christmas to you and your family.
I wondered about that. So far I have not notice but I did notice that after it dries it is hard to clean up. It seems to have an advantage when tapping but not so much for drilling or cutting.
Haha... that is annoying. I wont bolt it to the floor but I may make some large adjustable stops. The mill is on self leveling casters. very handy to be about to move as needed. And it does not affect the accuracy.
The pressur you put on the "dog" keeps changing because the bolt hole was drilled to size not reamed to size. Might be able to correct it by a spring putting consistant downward force on the dog. Watch the video and watch the dog move changing the length.
I don't think it would change much to make the hold smaller, the pressure angle is the same. I do think it I need to change the angle so that there is no downward pressure.
I think there is much too much leverage by the screw as well as flexibility in all the linkage to ever be trustworthy. This is almost the same kind of device that old jig bores used but in that case it used a dial indicator on the stopper rather than a pawl. The stopper itself consisted of gage block like bars that can be set to whatever you need by stacking them. I use this system when I need ultra precise spacing.
I may change the shape of the paw. Yes there is variation and to some degree the force applied on the lead screw effect it. Its close enough for the intended use but closer would be better. Tates11 made a good point.
Respectfully Mark, meh. If you were to need 10 tool holders it would be faster with the DRO. Each project needs a new story pole to be made which wastes time and is wasteful of stock, granted probably not too much in the grand scheme of things but...... I can see the value of your idea but I think if it was faster to set up and easier to use you'd be more likely to use it and benefit from having it. That said please allow me to suggest a slightly different design, based on what you have done. I hope I can convey this clearly to you, it is quite clear on my paper napkin. First, your horizontal bar that holds your story board. Make a 1/4" slot all the way through. Widen that slot in the top half to say 1/2". If I have described this part clearly you will see that in section you basically have an inverted T slot. Second, make a fist full of T nuts to fit inverted into the slot. They should be tall enough to sit slightly proud of the top of the "inverted T slot" described above. The portion of the T nut that protudes above the "inverted T slot" could be narrowed to be like a transverse rib, allowing for closer indexing. Third, make the pawl wide enough so it rides on top of the "inverted T slot" and registers on the T nuts. If the engagement point of the pawl was made narrow, as with the rib on the T nuts, with back relief it would help allow for closer indexing too. Opertaion. 1) set workpiece in vise, 2) set stops for repeating, 3) set starting zero point and DRO, 4) perform first op, 5) slide and lock 1st T nut against pawl, 6) using the DRO move to second op position, 7) perform second op, 8) slide and lock second T nut, yada, yada, yada..... Advantages. No need to make story boards, Less materials needed initially, Quicker setup, Unlikely to err in setup, Bent story boards no longer an issue, ie more rigid. I hope my description is clear and you can understand what I am trying to convey. My comments are made out of respect for the work you do and appreciation of the videos you produce for us viewers. Without that respect I wouldn't take the time to comment. Cheers and thanks for your vids.
Yeah, its 25 cents for the stock so for me that isn't an issue. I do like the adjustable stop idea and I thought about doing that but I was worried about the stop moving as I locked. I also wanted to be able to save a set up. I agree it would be a waste of time if I was making 2 or 3 parts with 3 or 4 holes. However, I just drilled about 45 holes and milled 15 slots in 15 pieces. Even with the slight error all the bolt holes lined up perfectly despite the fact that the bolt clearance was fairly tight. I will be modifying the ratchet pawl as Tates111 suggested (comment pinned to the top). I do appreciate you comment however and still like the adjustable stop idea. Have a great Christmas!
To prevent the downward force flexing the rail assembly. The pawl could lock with the leading edge vertical and the point above the bottom of the slots. To achieve this a stop pin will need to be added above the pivot and to the right. The pawl will then stop against it when it is vertical with no downward wedging action. The pawl will need to be flipped over.
That would work. I also thought about minimizing the force by changing the shape and pivot point. The downward force is contained by the support but admittedly it adds another variable and a little error. Thanks, I might end up making you modification.
@@WinkysWorkshop I would definitely lower the pivot point so the pawl is at a much flatter angle (maybe 20 deg instead of 45, which is what you seem to have at present) and a larger diameter, close fitting pivot pin (maybe a dowel pin, the sort with a threaded hole for extraction) loctited into the base. I reckon it would also be worthwhile to chamfer the underside of the pawl flat, so the corner is 90 degrees, so it's less prone to taking dings.
@@Gottenhimfella I think the downward force is the biggest issue. A flat face on the pawl and a pin to limit its downward travel would be idea. And I agree, lower the pivot point
Mark if you don't think you are a very good cabinet maker then who makes all those beautiful wood projects, we have seen you make in your videos. I think your wood working is as good as I have ever seen.
Well thank you very much Terry. Yeah my woodworking has improved over the years. Mostly due to old age patience and a CAD program that does math for me. Still, I'd have a hard time making a live at it. The teacher of the class was amazing and fast.
Nice design and nice work, looks like a production job is in the works. Very interesting piece, enjoyed it very much.thanks and cheers!
Thanks
Enjoyed…Merry Christmas
Thanks, same to you!
Very nice work. Great idea.
Merry Christmas
Thanks same to you !
Nice job working through the problems , I made one of your spring cut off tools and love it ! Thanks
Nice, good to hear about the cut off.
Your videos are always .great. Thank you again
I'm glad you like them. Thanks
Another interesting video Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year.
Thanks, you too!
Great idea, nice work.
Thanks for sharing the process.
Merry Christmas. 🙏
Thanks, same to you
Such an interesting idea. Your video does show “flex” in the way the ratchet “dog” is working. I am sure you will find a way to prevent that flex and make your sticks more repeatable. 👏👏👍😀
Yeah a comment by tates11 got me thinking.It works well enough but no variation would be nice.
@ If you do make a variation, please do show us. Good luck.
@@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian For sure!
Nice thinking 👍I use my table stops on the Bridgeport quite often. But it requires temporarily removing the power feed limit switch.
Thanks, I just improved the accuracy by changing the angle of the pawl. I made a video but the receiver for my wireless mic was not on. Grrr.
Very clever. Just watching you make the one part makes me think that this invention would benefit from either reversing the pawl's direction and lean, or by setting up so that the zero point of the part is at the opposite end of the part. This would give you a way to make the whole part without having to manually retract the pawl for each subsequent feature's stop.
EG as currently configured, if the part's zero point were at the left end of the part, you could crank until the pawl falls into the notch, then reverse slightly to your stop point. After that feature is made, go forward through your story to the next feature's notch and reverse slightly to go up to that features true location, and so on. You get an easily indexed positioning of each feature without having to lift the pawl each time to move on to the next location.
If you work right to left it works like you described but your method might be more intuitive. Although, I am left handed :o)
Hello Winky, awesome tool for any mill, good project, I like it, cheers from me. 😄👍👍👍👍👍
Very true, thanks!
Thank you for a well informing video.
Your welcome, thanks for watching.
Great video winky, I really like that anchor lube it don't smoke, just clean up any shinnie parts after use it will stain your lathe chuck..
Thanks for the feed back on the lub. I like it for tapping... not so much drilling and definitely not cut off.
That's a novel idea. It would work in a production shop where different priducts have their story sticks for repeat orders. More fun than CNC, what I call manual programing 😁
Thanks, yes I agree
Mark in the old days before DRO tool makers used precision rods and dial indicators to set x and y dimensions. If you look on the table of a Bridgeport or BP clone mill you will see half round groves front and rear on the table for the rods to lay in. They were also used on Jig Bores. Sheetmetal stamping dies must be within .0002 on all hole locations combined. The dies that I worked on had 11 punches and die inserts the smallest being .032 diameter and the die made 100 strokes per minute. Some of the other dies ran at 500 strokes per minute. So they had to be near perfect. All this was done before DRO.
That’s really interesting! In fact my mill has the same half round grooves... just not sure how they could be used.
I was just about to say! Round gauge/shop blocks, a stop, and a dial indicator. Drop them in and out of the tray for incremental moves.
@@WinkysWorkshop The rods are adjusted to a pre determined length. (example center to center of holes.) The indicator is just a bumper to let you know when you have moved the table the exact distance. You could do the same thing with your Story Board concept. Another method that was used is die makers buttons. Its more than I should go into detail on here but it is another way to achieve perfect results.
@@terrycannon570 Thanks Terry
Time to make one for the lathe too :)
I actually did this already. I needed to make 6 accurately placed snap ring grooves. It had adjustable stops on a threaded rod (clamping threaded lock collars).
Thankbyou for your videos bought me a lathe 10 in swing a jet
I used a Jet lathe, I think it was a 10 inch. Very nice lathe.
Glad to see you trying Anchor Lube! I'm sure you will like it. Great video, sir! Please keep them coming. A note: I thought I noticed a slight movement in the pawl when it comes to a stop as if the mounting screw hole is too large. Maybe a tighter tolerance?
Thanks! Yes there is movement at the screw but its move the same every time when it hits a stop.
Nice WNC (Winky numeric control)design.
Haha... I like it!
Very good video,Mark.How to link story sticks and production work.Thank you.
Thanks!
I believe you said that you had straighten the slotted bar that holds the story pole, after you did that the story pole looked like it was rocking. Do you think you should reslot the story pole holder so the story pole lays flat? It just looks like holder piece is flexing even after you put the adjustment screw in the bottom.
Someone else brought up that the ratchet part might be moving a little in the mounting hole, maybe ream the hole to lose a bit of movement. I don’t know if you’ll try to make it a little tighter on the repeatability or not but just adding my thoughts.
Thanks for the video, it’s another good idea.
I never straightened it. The rocking should not be an issue unless its inconsistant. The bottom support is keeping the bar the same distance from the dog. A commenter above (tates) made a very good point.
I didn’t really get what he was saying and I was thinking about how it was flexing. I went back and reread what he was saying and that does make sense.
I think I had to many thoughts going on. lol See you next week!
@@Hoaxer51 I had to read it several times but finally understood. I'll make a part 2 and show it. Basically it will eliminate any downward force.
Good evening Mark,
You have too much deviation in the pawl screw.
I would suggest you make a new screw and bore the pawl to size.
Another suggestion is to take the lower guide support and machine a slot in it and then machine a brass wear strip that is.005 +/- above the steel.
These changes should help with the deflection.
Excellent work.
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Hello Jim, all good suggestions but I think Tate11 (comment pinned to the top) nailed it.
Anchor lube works well, but it will rust any metal on your lathe where you don't wipe it off. Due to its water content.
I wondered about that. So far I have not notice but I did notice that after it dries it is hard to clean up. It seems to have an advantage when tapping but not so much for drilling or cutting.
Story boards are used in boatbuilding, to take off curves and other features.
Cool, They work well.
Next week: Installing decent lighting around the mill ;0)
Good idea, thanks for the input.
In two weeks time, bolting the mill to the floor so the whole thing doesn't wobble when you wind the table.
Haha... that is annoying. I wont bolt it to the floor but I may make some large adjustable stops. The mill is on self leveling casters. very handy to be about to move as needed. And it does not affect the accuracy.
i would move the paw down closer to reduce the angle some looks like it is moving up when you load it.
I agree. I think a part 2 is needed. 😛
What program do you use to create your drawings?
Sketchup. I like it but they got greedy with pricing. I have a 2016 version.
The pressur you put on the "dog" keeps changing because the bolt hole was drilled to size not reamed to size. Might be able to correct it by a spring putting consistant downward force on the dog. Watch the video and watch the dog move changing the length.
I don't think it would change much to make the hold smaller, the pressure angle is the same. I do think it I need to change the angle so that there is no downward pressure.
YO CREO QUE LA BARILLA CUADRADA TENIA QUE ESTAR SOLDADA ,O ATONILLADA
As long as I move to the right the bar has a firm stop so nothing is needed to hold it
I think there is much too much leverage by the screw as well as flexibility in all the linkage to ever be trustworthy. This is almost the same kind of device that old jig bores used but in that case it used a dial indicator on the stopper rather than a pawl. The stopper itself consisted of gage block like bars that can be set to whatever you need by stacking them. I use this system when I need ultra precise spacing.
I may change the shape of the paw. Yes there is variation and to some degree the force applied on the lead screw effect it. Its close enough for the intended use but closer would be better. Tates11 made a good point.
Respectfully Mark, meh.
If you were to need 10 tool holders it would be faster with the DRO.
Each project needs a new story pole to be made which wastes time and is wasteful of stock, granted probably not too much in the grand scheme of things but......
I can see the value of your idea but I think if it was faster to set up and easier to use you'd be more likely to use it and benefit from having it.
That said please allow me to suggest a slightly different design, based on what you have done. I hope I can convey this clearly to you, it is quite clear on my paper napkin.
First, your horizontal bar that holds your story board. Make a 1/4" slot all the way through. Widen that slot in the top half to say 1/2". If I have described this part clearly you will see that in section you basically have an inverted T slot.
Second, make a fist full of T nuts to fit inverted into the slot. They should be tall enough to sit slightly proud of the top of the "inverted T slot" described above. The portion of the T nut that protudes above the "inverted T slot" could be narrowed to be like a transverse rib, allowing for closer indexing.
Third, make the pawl wide enough so it rides on top of the "inverted T slot" and registers on the T nuts. If the engagement point of the pawl was made narrow, as with the rib on the T nuts, with back relief it would help allow for closer indexing too.
Opertaion.
1) set workpiece in vise,
2) set stops for repeating,
3) set starting zero point and DRO,
4) perform first op,
5) slide and lock 1st T nut against pawl,
6) using the DRO move to second op position,
7) perform second op,
8) slide and lock second T nut,
yada, yada, yada.....
Advantages.
No need to make story boards,
Less materials needed initially,
Quicker setup,
Unlikely to err in setup,
Bent story boards no longer an issue, ie more rigid.
I hope my description is clear and you can understand what I am trying to convey. My comments are made out of respect for the work you do and appreciation of the videos you produce for us viewers. Without that respect I wouldn't take the time to comment.
Cheers and thanks for your vids.
Yeah, its 25 cents for the stock so for me that isn't an issue. I do like the adjustable stop idea and I thought about doing that but I was worried about the stop moving as I locked. I also wanted to be able to save a set up. I agree it would be a waste of time if I was making 2 or 3 parts with 3 or 4 holes. However, I just drilled about 45 holes and milled 15 slots in 15 pieces. Even with the slight error all the bolt holes lined up perfectly despite the fact that the bolt clearance was fairly tight. I will be modifying the ratchet pawl as Tates111 suggested (comment pinned to the top). I do appreciate you comment however and still like the adjustable stop idea. Have a great Christmas!