After having your videos and alignment methods pointed out to me...by one of my students...I switched to your method! I was aware of using the head tube as the datum, by Jamie Swan and others, but no one ever would show how they would cold set it and that always baffled me...you have to cold set and using the bottom bracket whipping post was the only way I knew or was taught. And yes we [at the factories where I worked] always had the problem of not being able to flip the frame and we had very nice flat surface plates. I think it has to do with squeezing the bottom bracket shell and that gives you a different reading every time you smash it in the BB post. So thank you very much!
@@paulbrodie I have read all these and took a machinist class and run CNC and am fascinated with metal and making thing. Your knowledge of lining things up is good. I think of it all like my tire changer and balancer little weight here spins around so pay attention. Thanks for the info.
Could it also be because of the offset while trying to screw in the center of the bottom bracket? By not having cones to precisely index the center of the bottom bracket clamping, even if it's on a outside flat/machine surface plate, that offset could cause the problem when you flip the bike.
Old school frame building, I learnt in the 1970's at the Holdsworth cycle, from British old school frame builders same way you do now, thanks for sharing from the UK
Another good show about frames Paul, nice. When I bought my first MTB I could not ride and take off my hand it as no balance at all but six months later I saw a TV documentary about different professions that was about a couple of brothers who built bikes and they had done for 70 years the oldest was 92 years old when they did the program and it was 26 years ago, they showed how they built their bikes including how to align their frames. It was easy, they used the window frame and then aimed and bend with an iron bar, they then told that if you did not do it, you could not cycle without hands on the handlebars. When I had seen the documentary, I tore down my mtb and bent it as they had done, it turned out that the frame was anything but straight but 30 minutes later it was and I still have the bike and ride it.
I saw that documentary on YT the other day! th-cam.com/video/g0QjhGr73Ns/w-d-xo.html. I think I probably saw it in 1989 as well. They had an Italian framebuilder with some fancy machined tools and then cut to Ken, Jack and Norman Taylor in Yorkshire who used the window. They didn't mention whether the window frame itself had been Blanchard ground. I think they also said they'd made 6000 frames. So Paul has to do another 2000 to catch up.
@@benc8386 I have seen this documentary too but but what I am thinking of was made in the mid 90's and was just about these two brothers and maybe only 30 minutes long. They were like Paul told about every step and why they did so, but everything about bicycles is interesting.
Really interesting video. My thought after watching it was how well does the alignment hold with use? There wasn't a tremendous amount of force needed to tweak things. I saw you answer to a similar question below, and it sounds like alignments hold well with regular use. I like the examples using homemade alignment tools. Thanks for that. Very useful, and shows what a little creativity and knowledge can do.
I'd love that also. Especially as it is harder to find industrial stuff up here in Canada. Did you get it ground flat? Did you do it in the Lower Mainland or cross the border? I got my (used) Tig machine in Ferndale WA because it was about 60% of the cost of a Vancouver one, even with the hassle of driving down to get it.
I had a machinist teach me that, you never take your hand off the chuck key when it is in the chuck. NEVER. That is best lesson ever when using any machine that uses a Chuck Key. Thanks for the Video. 😎👍
I remember that lesson in school many moons ago! Alas, I managed to switch it on with my hand still holding the key pinning my fingers against the bed. Fortunately, the key shaft left enough gap between it and the handles and at 14 years old, I was still "rubbery" enough to prevent any broken fingers but I had deep wedges in the back of my fingers for a couple of hours. I can be a touch sloppy with safety but 40 years later, I am still very strict in my Chuck/ Chuck-Key discipline!
I'm not a frame builder, but a hobby machinist. This just show how much can be done with simple home made tools, instead of running off to buy the most expensive and fancy equipment. Very interesting video, and alignment is useful in many ways. Totally agree on the symmetrical test, by flipping the frame over. It should be the same. Thanks.
Thank you for this. Tons of great information. I wish I had got out there for a tour when you were running the school. One question: why are you measuring the centre on the downtube? does it not make more sense to just do head tube and seat tube? To me a downtube theoretically could be any weird shape, like a chain or seat stay can be, as long as it holds the head tube it the right place. But maybe I am missing something? Thanks
Yes, you can measure off the head tube. My alignment fixture is the right length to do the seat tube and down tube. To do the head tube I would need a much longer fixture, especially with modern geometries. I don't use down tubes with "weird shapes". They are very straight. Thanks for watching and commenting.
The reason that the surface table doesn't produce more accurate results than it does is because using the surface table introduces a change in the frame of reference, thereby introducing error. You base everything on the bottom bracket - as you should - to align all the other parts. But if you bolt a surface table to the underside of a bike frame, you are making the new frame of reference the surface of the table. So now, instead of aligning everything to the bottom bracket, you are now aligning everything to the surface of the table. No matter how perfect the fixture is and the surface of the table is, the act of bolting the bottom bracket to the table will introduce errors between the bottom bracket and the table's surface, and even more error will be introduced by the height measuring tool that sits on the table surface. A surface table is great for jigging together parts into a unique frame so you can initially weld/braze them together, but anything that is as sensitive as a bike frame apparently is to small changes should use the bottom bracket as it's final all-encompassing frame of reference to bend parts to their final shapes/angles, exactly as you have done.
Enjoyed your video, thanks! I suspect that all the square/rectangular holes in the commercial plate have, by introducing bending forces, deformed the plate to the point where it has lost some accuracy. The forces introduced by the tapered pattern hold down nut-block has not helped that situation either. A master plate of granite or cast iron which has been scraped to a known standard and some Prussian blue will reveal the anomalies in the commercial plate. Likewise it can prove the homemade plate. The homemade plate should have been stress relieved by heat treatment (for mild steels gentle to 1150 F plus or minus 20 degrees soaked for 1 hour of thickness and then gentle cool to ambient). Welding after stress relief will introduce new stresses into the plate, so mechanical fastening is recommended. A reference datum that is truly perpendicular to the axis of the bottom bracket should yield very accurate results.
I am glad I found your videos as a craftsman is always a joy to watch, Watching your other videos it is easy to you have refined your metal working skills to a very high standard. I came up in auto racing and we straightened race car frames with the same principles as you use. Tie one corner down , support it at the point to bend and as many people as needed on the opposite corner to apply the bending force. Multiple tie downs also help if the supply of human counter weight is low
And... in the "bicycle co-op" end of town, I teach people how to test and correct frame alignment using a string, a pencil and a 5ft x 2in x 4in (1.75m x 50mm x 100mm) board. As accurate as a rider needs, using less floor space.
That was g'damn awesome. I am getting a 73 Atala back from the sandblaster this week. I have a Home Cheapo straightedge, a c- clamp and a tape measure. I will do what I can.
It's great how you're sharing your knowledge and passing on great skills. Could it be that the dropouts were so far off because you lowered the alignment tool to the headset bar and I didn't see you move it back to frame height (unless done off camera) to line up the dropouts. It's really late here in England, I should get some sleep. Thanks again.
Back in the 1980's I had an accident with my road bike. I was riding my bike through an intersection and a lady turned right in front of me. The front wheel of my bike went under the lady's back wheel of her car turning it into a figure eight shape. I was knocked out and when I came to the lady left the scene of the accident to get her purse. She came back and offered me $50 to replace my front wheel... Iol NOT! After I healed a few months later I bought a pair of wheels so they would match and repaired my bike myself. I wasn't able to ride my bike hands free because it would pull hard to one side. I took my bike to a bike shop and asked if they could check the alignment. After a few days I was told the alignment was fine by the bike shop. I never rode no hands after that. Another thing I noticed was when I rode through puddles my tire tracks were off by an inch or so. So I guess the bike shop didn't actually check to see if my frame or front fork got bent. Thank you very much for this video Paul, I still have the bike in my garage and I will try aligning it myself. : )
Generally, bicycle shops do not have the skills nor the tools or fixtures needed to align a bicycle frame. That's where a good framebuilder is required. Thanks for watching, and I do hope you get your frame straightened out to be able to ride no hands.
But really, its all techie shmeckie. Now im gonna go throw a completley f’ed up whip, land sideways, and torque the frame to hell, and just ride it again the next day
I have a new mountain bike and I can ride with no hands very Easily without problem. I recently restored my father's road bike that has a frame "equal" to this and I cant ride it without hands, it seems that is always tilting to one side and is difficult to control, can be the frame out of alignment then? I think he had a crash on it many years ago idk. Anyway amazing video, thank you!
Some bikes are just hard to ride no hands, like a track bike with a 75 degree head angle. If you can't ride your father's road bike no hands, it is likely the frame is out of alignment. You could do a simple check using some string. Not a perfect system, but it will give you an idea...
As stated in the comments, the surface table should be very accurate for flatness, I would suspect the subtle amount that the downtube is off-centre to the BB is the reason for the discrepancy and perhaps the clamp that holds the seat tube doesn't do enough to isolate movement in that area. the theory behind the expensive surface table is sound, what it doesn't allow for is making a "best case" alignment for a frame when there are discrepancies present (which would almost always be the case). Paul's familiarity with his own method and the way it isolates the different steps are what give him confidence in the result.
The subtle science and exact art of...... alignment. I will say, seems better to go off of centerlines of ht and st. Who cares where the od of dt or st sits (within reason). Miters can be off, tubes out of round etc. Butted tubes are almost always banana shaped.. I roll them to find it and orient the arc in the vertical plane of the frame where it is less troublesome... but what if Rocky or whoever didn't do that?
I believe there is a wide range of alignment standards within the bike industry. The average cyclist does not have the tools to check, and frame builders can't agree on minimum standards partly because alignment doesn't get discussed much.
You're 100% classy Paul. Thanks again... I always look forward to your videos. How many Campagnolo tools do you have? You should do a video on those tools only! I have a full boxed set of Campy tools that I bought back in the late 90s. I still use them when servicing bicycles today.
@@paulbrodie I've heard a very skilled mechanic refer to those Campy dropout alignment tools as 'coconuts'. The (probably older) model he had used rounded half-spheres that were almost the size of said nuts!
Hi Paul looking at your site i wonder if you can shed any light on an issue i have with 2018 giant e bike it just destroys chains and hubs derailleurs every 300miles or less its a yamaha motor
Only problem is you didn’t isolate the bent part of the tube so no matter what the you do since you didn’t isolate the bend is that the tube is still bent, and therefore the top tube is bent in 2 places now not one. Don’t believe me, run a dial indicator on the tube please and show me the video.
In the world of steel Framebuilding, some tubes are straight, and some tubes are not so straight. I also believe that a small percentage of builders put effort into building a straight frame, while most either don't know how, or just don't care. It is hard to make a living as a Framebuilder, so good alignment is a series of steps that are often missed or overlooked. What I have tried to show in this video is the basics of Alignment, using a surface table and some basic fixturing.... Using a dial indicator to figure out if there is a slight bend in a tube is complete overkill, at least in my books. But, thanks for watching and commenting...
No micrometers, lasers and granite surface tables? And you call it "fussy alignment"? Nah... ;-) Of course, I'm kidding. Great instructional video - and while nothing "new" (all the info has been "out there" for quite some time already), it still shows the whole process clearly "from the start (BB) to the end" - with all details and practical hints, like "CrMo memory" stuff. As I mentioned before (in my another comment under another video of yours) I"m not a frame builder, although occasionally I do some minor frame repairs (replacing damaged drop-outs, and such), but aligning frames is just part and parcel of "general fixing" of bikes anyway. Now, I just remembered my first frame alignment attempt I did back in '92 or so, while I didn't have much (if any) clue about frame geometry and all - a friend of mine had a cheap steel road bike that "rode like drunk" (in his words). I took a look at it and noticed its wheels were "crossed" (i.e. not parallel), so without much ado (or thinking) I stripped the bike, put the head tube into some fixture, and twisted the frame until wheels were "aligned" (parallel, but I never checked if they were in one plane). Happy and proud of my achievement I began to reassembly the bike, and then half-way I noticed... that NOW the head tube and seat tube were seriously crossed. So much so that you could see it easily with a naked eye (and half drunk)... What the... bike? Nolens volens I "realigned" the frame back, so the head and seat tubes were parallel again, but then I was back to square one with the rear wheel... Sodding bast... erm, "bike", of course - so, what do I do now? Cut the seat stay, or what?! "Exactly so", as it turned out - after closer inspection I found out that bike was poorly welded at the factory - right seat stay was attached to seat tube approx. 10-15 mm lower than the left one... So I took an angle grinder, cut the welds, repositioned the stay and welded it (with MIG, as it was the only thing I had and know how to use back then) back where it was supposed to be. Crude fix, but hey, it worked! Well, at least it made the whole "bike resembling thingy" (it was tad worse than early Norwegian DBS* bikes) act more or less like a normal bike. Rideable it became, that is.... but I digress here ;-) __________ *DBS stands, apparently, for "Den Besten Sykkel", Norwegian for "The Best Bike". Oh, what a joke it is... Those bikes are (or "used to be", at least) a perfect Christmas gift for a very... naughty and recalcitrant kids.
@@paulbrodie Yeah, I have, and that's the part of bigger problem, y'see... I am... well, how should I put it... Shall I say "fussy"? Or just "fastidious"? Well, whatever... ;-) Cheers!
Thank you a lot Paul! Your videos are a real pleasure in those strange times.I'm learning some nice tricks, thank you again. If you would make a video on checking a motorcycle frame it would be amazing. Ciao from Filandro!
To align a motorcycle frame you need a heavy duty "alignment cage" to push and pull the frame with hydraulics. I do not have one of those, sorry. Thanks for watching!
@paul brodie Hi Paul, a long time ago, I remember watching a motorcycle frame repairer aligning frames virtually exactly the way you do, except that he had a very solidly anchored fixture to attach the bottom bracket to. He aligned by hand, but used much longer bars than you do to give him the leverage to create the force needed. I also saw him demonstrate how much stiffer you can make a frame with the addition of some very simple relatively small gussets. The difference in resistance to twisting force is astonishing. I have another engineering friend here in Melbourne who currently makes motorbike frames, and if they're not aligned when they come off the jig, he either does them by hand with long levers, or uses a very simple hydraulic jack set up to align them. It's great watching you demonstrating these techniques, my oldest son is doing a welding apprenticeship, and wants to start a shop building custom bicycle frames. This will be the first clip I forward to him. I think your channel will be enormously helpful, and of course it's always easier for someone other than 'dad' to teach them.
Andrew thanks for your great comment. Yes, motorcycles can be viewed as very heavy duty bicycles in some ways. I was always reading motorcycle magazines when I was a kid and became quite aware of gussets and how they could increase strength. Thanks for watching!
Thanks so much for making your channel Paul. I've built two fillet brazed frames and I'm soaking up your content like a sponge. Seeing you jump on the front triangle while it's bolted to your jig/plate brings back memories!
I got here one year later, but it was still a very impressive video! I don't build bike frames (or repair them), but I have 3 bikes and I'm pretty sure they are not aligned - now I have some input on how to check them. Thanks!
thank you for sharing this! i dont have the space for an alignmet table as a hobbyist, but your method should work fine in the tight space i have. and its very impressive how far you have to move a frame to get it to bend permanently
Awesome videos, I'm learning a lot. I'm looking to get a 1987 gt performer with the rear tripod bent and a small dent in the down tube. So this is a great help. Thank you.
woah, woah, woah. You adjusted the v block for the head tube alignment. And is the bottom bracket datum clamp vertical? The wedge blocks on the underside of the table would have to be machined to get a good normal. Granted, your posts have a large base, but flipping the frame has to just work. It would be fascinating to take a current carbon frame and jig it. At least with steel frames, the tubes were held in blocks when brazed. The carbon frames are either going to be perfect or perfect crap.
I know I'm not the only framebuilder to flip a frame and get a different reading. Part of the problem is it's almost impossible to get the bottom bracket faces to be perfectly parallel with each other. It is not a perfect system.Yes, I would like to check some carbon frames.
@@paulbrodie Can you get the bottom bracket coplanar using the Campy bottom bracket taps and facing tool? I worked with Proctor in Edmonton for a summer and the Campy tool set was incredible. It was nice being able to get rid of tight spots in the steering by facing the head tube and fork crown.
@@andreichichak5242 Yes, that's what I did on this frame. I should have checked to see just how parallel they were. I did check today after all that aligning last week. They were out .003" which I think is not bad.
Always informative with with amazing snippets... I made my 2 of my frame alignment tools eg: "Brodie Sticks".... simple and effective tools.....a good solid bench and vice needed......now to make a fork stay jig.....and..... ....Hummmm how to do the final head tube seat stay alignment without a flat solid table? Thanks again!
I enjoyed watching the process and wish some of LBS in my area would adopt a similar process in frame alignment. Very educational, thank-you. On another note, in your opinion would you attempt to straighten out a wrinkle in a steel top tube and down tube due to a head on collision or replace both tubes? This is a vintage bike and would prefer to keep as much original as possible.
A head on collision usually produces more than just a "wrinkle". Replacing both tubes is quite a bit of work and is not cheap. You will have to figure out if your Vintage bike bike is worth the cost, time, energy, and paint job to make it a worthwhile and viable project. Good luck 😉
6:29, this seems where the error comes from in this method. Where was it established that the reference height here (which everything is based off after) is accurate? Its not. I saw this and was expecting it to be off, and it was when you flipped it. Yes you measured close to the bottom bracket, but you didn’t truly reference it off the height or the bottom bracket. You referenced it off the down tube, which you proceeded to show a couple steps was out of alignment. You had to bend it up away from the table to straighten it and bring it line with the bottom bracket. If at this moment instead of setting it off the downtube side of the bottom bracket junction your result would be different. The height gauge is never properly set, therefore all measurements using it are off.
If you read through the comments, a lot of viewers have told me where I made a mistake, and a better way to use the table... We had that surface table for about 5 years. In that time I showed every student both methods of alignment, and do you know how many used that big surface table? Not one. My system is easier to learn, and more accurate...
@@paulbrodie Thanks for the reply! The 2nd method is what I am planning on using. I started a mobile bike repair business last year and am finally making myself some alignment gauges. I like the threaded feeler of your design!
While upgrading my welding certificates at Kwatlen College Langley, the bike welding builders would come and try the best Tig welders ready to graduate, for building alu frames.
Can you use the Park Tool FFS-2 Frame and Fork Straightener to align the rear triangles at home? I have a Trek 990 and the right chain stay is too close to the crankset and crank arm. Thanks.
Hello, really fascinating video! I was wondering if you could use two machinist precision levels to align seattube to headtube? That way you would not need the table at all?
In theory you can, but how do you balance 2 levels on top of small diameter tubing? And if it is out of alignment, how do you straighten it? Thanks for commenting...
@@paulbrodie many engineers spirit levels have following features: 2 levels built in one 90° from eachother, magnets and a groove in the bottom to use with tubes. My comment was kinda dumb talking about 2 levels when they are built into one. Also it is much easier to build a fixture for just bending the frame compared to building a precise table. Hope this made sense✌🏻
@@eurobeatmachinist732 Yes it made sense. There are probably many ways to align a frame. Framebuilding as a career is about time and efficiency. I'll bet I can align faster with my method than using 2 spirit levels. Thanks for commenting.
@@syl_diy It is 1" steel plate, nothing fancy. I phoned my local machine shops to see who had the biggest grinder. One shop could handle an 18" X 30" plate, so I phoned my local metal supplier and ordered that size. It's just large enough for "most" bicycle frames.
Wow ,,, I never knew that this is where Mighty Mitch made his debut . Ive never seen a surface table like that , is it a special one for bike frame building .? good grief , now Im half way through , and have serious doubts that the surface table is even flat , it would do for making gates on or rough welding jobs ,,,, but thats it. made it to the end , your simple hand tools work the best and follow total logic , the only other thing I would have done was put the frame back on the surface table as a known , and see how far out the table actually is. great video , totally enjoyed it , I will never true a bike frame , but so much of this translates into so many other engineering problems ,.. many thanks for showing us this.
Interesting and thanks for the video. Quoting the old adage "measure twice" Would it have not been better to measure alignment, then flip the frame over and measure again. Would this not provide the full picture of the alignment? Then let the bending begin!
I have never been able to get consistency on the big surface table. Flipping the frame over is time consuming, because you might might to re-position the "whipping post" that holds the BB. I'm just not a fan. Thanks for watching!
Also, since you've stopped teaching Framebuilding 101 at the university, what's happening to all the tooling and parts? Is someone else "picking up the torch" and continuing to teach that class? Thanks again!
All the tooling and parts that were mine are back in my shop. I think we can say that Covid put an end to Framebuilding 101. I like to think that I have "transitioned" to this channel on TH-cam. I've looked but I don't see anyone else with a torch. Sorry.
Hi Paul, i just bought a cheap mtb, and it has semi horizontal DO, the problem is one is higher than other about 2-3mm, so the rear wheel is tilted. can i cold set or hack that?
When I was a student in the machine shop the way the chuck key being left in the chuck was handled was a demonstration by the teacher. Everyone stood to one side. He put the key in and punched the start button with a bit of tubing. The chuck key fetched up in the wall that was some decent distance away with almighty bang. Yes the wall had numerous holes in it! Then we were taken to the office and shown his 'archive' of accidents involving Lathes that he had attended as an OHS inspector over the years. What was seen cannot be unseen. Over the next two years nobody in the class left the chuck in that I ever saw.
Yes, that is certainly one way of leaving an impression. You can also damage the lathe and the chuck key, so that would not be my first choice. But thanks :)
A drill press I have came with a chuck key with a spring centre bit so it will pop out if you aren't holding it in. Might be a good idea for a student use lathe in a school.
Just got a chance to watch this video and I'd bet you...a coffee!... that if you had that table surface ground now you'd see a huge difference to the better. No doubt that was an unseasoned casting when they ground it and it warped. A granite AA surface plate would be delightful overkill. Drill it for thread-serts and amaze your friends!
You might be right, but I have never had consistent results using a big surface table. It's not my table so I can't go back and recheck if it is warped from being "unseasoned"..
@@paulbrodie Not blowing smoke at you Paul. Cast iron has a lot of stresses from the cooling process, carbon content and machining. Rapid and uncontrolled cooling leads to tool destroying surface hardness and haphazard or cost expedient machining results in pretzel product. The old method of normalizing stresses in castings was to leave them outside for a year or two through varying weather. You can also hang them and physically beat the daylights out of them short of destruction. Depending on the final desired results, grinding and scraping would be the finishing procedures. Not offering all this to diminish your wonderful and creative tooling for frame straightening! Brilliant!
@@greybeard3759 I believe you. Years ago I heard of German auto manufacturers leaving engine castings out in the yard for a couple of years before bringing them into the shop for final machining. I had not heard of beating the castings up. Thanks for watching!
Over engineered solution vs old school, tried and true machinist practices based on basic geometric principles. Simpler is always better. Thanks for taking the time to show this.
Years ago I had a mouse problem. They made a nest inside my Tig welder and then peed all over the circuit board. It took 3 different repair shops and $500 to get fixed. Then mice, or rats, outside my shop, ate a hole in the plastic gas tank on my lawnmower, not once, but twice.
@@paulbrodie I started a frame over a year ago for my wife but then we moved a few towns over and I kind of fell of the wagon. Just got back on and working on finishing. Like many things, she's gotten used to being patient with me.
Great video, again. What a cool place you had there for teaching! I am curious now, are the 101 lessons pauzed because of corona, or have the been terminated? And another question is, to what degree does a typical rider actually notice when a frame is not exactly aligned? I still ride my '96 (Raleigh) Dyna-Tech titanium mountainbike, and for all I know it could be warped as a potato chip without me even noticing. Or do you really notice it if it is not aligned?
Covid has had an effect. Let's say that Framebuilding 101 has transitioned to this channel. I am 66, fall into the high risk category, and am retired. Framebuilding 101 had a great 9.5 years at UFV. On alignment, I think a frame has to be quite far out of alignment before most riders will notice. Thanks for watching!
I figured you were younger 🙃 Over the years I had lost sight of the mtb world a bit (suspension and more and more extreme riding and the ever rising prices don’t appeal to me), so I didn’t even know you still had your shop. So kool that you can now do the nice little projects you like, and even cooler that you are sharing your knowledge and experience!
Paul, simple cure for leaving the key in the chuck; add a spring to the end of the key. By doing so you have to push the key in the square hole and if you release it, it pops out. Safety third ;-) Best, Job
@@paulbrodie I don't use it on my lathes for exactly the same reason. But it's a solution for students. I worked at a factory during my school years. They had quite a firm policy on leaving your chuck key in the chuck. If it happened twice in a two week period you where sacked. Next to this I saw one flying during my education and it made quite an impression. So I don't need a spring too. Thank you Paul. Best! Job
Excellent! Watching this video should be basic training for every wrench 101 candidate. So where do I find out info of people capable of doing such work, or more importantly telling me if it’s not worth the cash? Have an old Olmo (chain stay bridge) and a Lemond 853 (bent top tube, and rear triangle)?
@@paulbrodie can you share me a video or let me know how they do it professionally. We are electric cycle start-up and need help from like you great people
@@ashwinceo3625 Best thing to do is to visit a bicycle manufacturing company, maybe in Taiwan. I don't think you want to make the frames yourself. You will never compete with Taiwan or China.
I had a variety of bikes 🏍 through the years but never even considered the frame may have got misaligned...oh foolish me! Thanks Paul! Love your vids...buy you a cup in Craig, Alaska sometime soon perhaps if I can't send it.
After having your videos and alignment methods pointed out to me...by one of my students...I switched to your method! I was aware of using the head tube as the datum, by Jamie Swan and others, but no one ever would show how they would cold set it and that always baffled me...you have to cold set and using the bottom bracket whipping post was the only way I knew or was taught. And yes we [at the factories where I worked] always had the problem of not being able to flip the frame and we had very nice flat surface plates. I think it has to do with squeezing the bottom bracket shell and that gives you a different reading every time you smash it in the BB post. So thank you very much!
Thank you Mike!
@@paulbrodie I have read all these and took a machinist class and run CNC and am fascinated with metal and making thing. Your knowledge of lining things up is good. I think of it all like my tire changer and balancer little weight here spins around so pay attention. Thanks for the info.
@@Todd936 Thank you Todd 😉
Could it also be because of the offset while trying to screw in the center of the bottom bracket? By not having cones to precisely index the center of the bottom bracket clamping, even if it's on a outside flat/machine surface plate, that offset could cause the problem when you flip the bike.
@@serdiefgotreb I was at NTC a college and they had one of them tables and he isn’t the only one to have this problem.
I looked into it.
Good day guys
Now this is what you call learning..
The best few minutes spend on TH-cam ever..
Respect
Thank you very much. Appreciate you comments 😄
Old school frame building, I learnt in the 1970's at the Holdsworth cycle, from British old school frame builders same way you do now, thanks for sharing from the UK
Any one want to buy a tracking table, Ha Ha
Another good show about frames Paul, nice.
When I bought my first MTB I could not ride and take off my hand it as no balance at all but six months later I saw a TV documentary about different professions that was about a couple of brothers who built bikes and they had done for 70 years the oldest was 92 years old when they did the program and it was 26 years ago, they showed how they built their bikes including how to align their frames. It was easy, they used the window frame and then aimed and bend with an iron bar, they then told that if you did not do it, you could not cycle without hands on the handlebars. When I had seen the documentary, I tore down my mtb and bent it as they had done, it turned out that the frame was anything but straight but 30 minutes later it was and I still have the bike and ride it.
Good on you to straighten your own frame. Thanks for watching!
I saw that documentary on YT the other day! th-cam.com/video/g0QjhGr73Ns/w-d-xo.html. I think I probably saw it in 1989 as well. They had an Italian framebuilder with some fancy machined tools and then cut to Ken, Jack and Norman Taylor in Yorkshire who used the window. They didn't mention whether the window frame itself had been Blanchard ground. I think they also said they'd made 6000 frames. So Paul has to do another 2000 to catch up.
@@benc8386 I have seen this documentary too but but what I am thinking of was made in the mid 90's and was just about these two brothers and maybe only 30 minutes long. They were like Paul told about every step and why they did so, but everything about bicycles is interesting.
Yes yes yes! Great topic. Fork alignment would make just as interesting viewing. Thanks again for these amazing videos
If you check the Unicrown video fork alignment is covered there.
Really interesting video. My thought after watching it was how well does the alignment hold with use? There wasn't a tremendous amount of force needed to tweak things. I saw you answer to a similar question below, and it sounds like alignments hold well with regular use. I like the examples using homemade alignment tools. Thanks for that. Very useful, and shows what a little creativity and knowledge can do.
Thank you Chuck!
Once it has yielded, it won't return. That's the fundamental difference between elastic and plastic deformation.
I love the Eyecrometer. Hopefully one day mine will be as accurate as Paul's.
You will have to practice a lot!
I'd love to see a video about building that mini alignment table!
Might be able to do an overview. Will add that to the list. Thanks for watching!
@@paulbrodie actually the little bit you did in the shop tour was pretty helpful!
I'd love that also. Especially as it is harder to find industrial stuff up here in Canada. Did you get it ground flat? Did you do it in the Lower Mainland or cross the border? I got my (used) Tig machine in Ferndale WA because it was about 60% of the cost of a Vancouver one, even with the hassle of driving down to get it.
I had a machinist teach me that,
you never take your hand off the chuck key when it is in the chuck.
NEVER. That is best lesson ever when using any machine that uses a Chuck Key.
Thanks for the Video. 😎👍
That's a good lesson. Thanks for watching!
I remember that lesson in school many moons ago!
Alas, I managed to switch it on with my hand still holding the key pinning my fingers against the bed.
Fortunately, the key shaft left enough gap between it and the handles and at 14 years old, I was still "rubbery" enough to prevent any broken fingers but I had deep wedges in the back of my fingers for a couple of hours.
I can be a touch sloppy with safety but 40 years later, I am still very strict in my Chuck/ Chuck-Key discipline!
Paul should have at least 100k subscribers.
Slowly getting there!
I'm not a frame builder, but a hobby machinist. This just show how much can be done with simple home made tools, instead of running off to buy the most expensive and fancy equipment. Very interesting video, and alignment is useful in many ways. Totally agree on the symmetrical test, by flipping the frame over. It should be the same.
Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks Paul for sharing your methods. You are like a Shaolin Monk sharing the sacred art with the outside world...Watch your back!
Makes me think of pancakes for some reason. Thanks for watching!
Thank you for this. Tons of great information. I wish I had got out there for a tour when you were running the school.
One question: why are you measuring the centre on the downtube? does it not make more sense to just do head tube and seat tube? To me a downtube theoretically could be any weird shape, like a chain or seat stay can be, as long as it holds the head tube it the right place. But maybe I am missing something?
Thanks
Yes, you can measure off the head tube. My alignment fixture is the right length to do the seat tube and down tube. To do the head tube I would need a much longer fixture, especially with modern geometries. I don't use down tubes with "weird shapes". They are very straight. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great masterclass Mr. Brodie!
The reason that the surface table doesn't produce more accurate results than it does is because using the surface table introduces a change in the frame of reference, thereby introducing error. You base everything on the bottom bracket - as you should - to align all the other parts. But if you bolt a surface table to the underside of a bike frame, you are making the new frame of reference the surface of the table. So now, instead of aligning everything to the bottom bracket, you are now aligning everything to the surface of the table. No matter how perfect the fixture is and the surface of the table is, the act of bolting the bottom bracket to the table will introduce errors between the bottom bracket and the table's surface, and even more error will be introduced by the height measuring tool that sits on the table surface. A surface table is great for jigging together parts into a unique frame so you can initially weld/braze them together, but anything that is as sensitive as a bike frame apparently is to small changes should use the bottom bracket as it's final all-encompassing frame of reference to bend parts to their final shapes/angles, exactly as you have done.
Yes, I am not a fan of surface tables, for the reasons you gave. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Enjoyed your video, thanks! I suspect that all the square/rectangular holes in the commercial plate have, by introducing bending forces, deformed the plate to the point where it has lost some accuracy. The forces introduced by the tapered pattern hold down nut-block has not helped that situation either. A master plate of granite or cast iron which has been scraped to a known standard and some Prussian blue will reveal the anomalies in the commercial plate. Likewise it can prove the homemade plate. The homemade plate should have been stress relieved by heat treatment (for mild steels gentle to 1150 F plus or minus 20 degrees soaked for 1 hour of thickness and then gentle cool to ambient). Welding after stress relief will introduce new stresses into the plate, so mechanical fastening is recommended. A reference datum that is truly perpendicular to the axis of the bottom bracket should yield very accurate results.
I am glad I found your videos as a craftsman is always a joy to watch, Watching your other videos it is easy to you have refined your metal working skills to a very high standard. I came up in auto racing and we straightened race car frames with the same principles as you use. Tie one corner down , support it at the point to bend and as many people as needed on the opposite corner to apply the bending force. Multiple tie downs also help if the supply of human counter weight is low
That's cool! Now I know how to straighten a race car frame. I like being a part of those kind of things. Thanks for watching!
Love seeing the Campy dropout tools in use. Reminds me of my bike shop days 🤠🔥🔨
And... in the "bicycle co-op" end of town, I teach people how to test and correct frame alignment using a string, a pencil and a 5ft x 2in x 4in (1.75m x 50mm x 100mm) board. As accurate as a rider needs, using less floor space.
Years ago I used the string method. It's good if that's all you have.
That was g'damn awesome. I am getting a 73 Atala back from the sandblaster this week. I have a Home Cheapo straightedge, a c- clamp and a tape measure. I will do what I can.
It's great how you're sharing your knowledge and passing on great skills.
Could it be that the dropouts were so far off because you lowered the alignment tool to the headset bar and I didn't see you move it back to frame height (unless done off camera) to line up the dropouts.
It's really late here in England, I should get some sleep. Thanks again.
It is possible. On the video we only usually do one take, so it's basically "live", and mistakes can happen. I can't remember. Thanks for watching!
Back in the 1980's I had an accident with my road bike. I was riding my bike through an intersection and a lady turned right in front of me. The front wheel of my bike went under the lady's back wheel of her car turning it into a figure eight shape. I was knocked out and when I came to the lady left the scene of the accident to get her purse. She came back and offered me $50 to replace my front wheel... Iol NOT!
After I healed a few months later I bought a pair of wheels so they would match and repaired my bike myself. I wasn't able to ride my bike hands free because it would pull hard to one side. I took my bike to a bike shop and asked if they could check the alignment. After a few days I was told the alignment was fine by the bike shop. I never rode no hands after that. Another thing I noticed was when I rode through puddles my tire tracks were off by an inch or so. So I guess the bike shop didn't actually check to see if my frame or front fork got bent. Thank you very much for this video Paul, I still have the bike in my garage and I will try aligning it myself. : )
Generally, bicycle shops do not have the skills nor the tools or fixtures needed to align a bicycle frame. That's where a good framebuilder is required. Thanks for watching, and I do hope you get your frame straightened out to be able to ride no hands.
Podrías hacer un vídeo igual pero alineando horquillas
But really, its all techie shmeckie. Now im gonna go throw a completley f’ed up whip, land sideways, and torque the frame to hell, and just ride it again the next day
You can do whatever you want.
Thank you Sir...more of your expertise to share
I have a new mountain bike and I can ride with no hands very Easily without problem. I recently restored my father's road bike that has a frame "equal" to this and I cant ride it without hands, it seems that is always tilting to one side and is difficult to control, can be the frame out of alignment then? I think he had a crash on it many years ago idk.
Anyway amazing video, thank you!
Some bikes are just hard to ride no hands, like a track bike with a 75 degree head angle. If you can't ride your father's road bike no hands, it is likely the frame is out of alignment. You could do a simple check using some string. Not a perfect system, but it will give you an idea...
As stated in the comments, the surface table should be very accurate for flatness, I would suspect the subtle amount that the downtube is off-centre to the BB is the reason for the discrepancy and perhaps the clamp that holds the seat tube doesn't do enough to isolate movement in that area. the theory behind the expensive surface table is sound, what it doesn't allow for is making a "best case" alignment for a frame when there are discrepancies present (which would almost always be the case). Paul's familiarity with his own method and the way it isolates the different steps are what give him confidence in the result.
Gregory, thanks for watching and commenting.
The subtle science and exact art of...... alignment. I will say, seems better to go off of centerlines of ht and st. Who cares where the od of dt or st sits (within reason). Miters can be off, tubes out of round etc. Butted tubes are almost always banana shaped.. I roll them to find it and orient the arc in the vertical plane of the frame where it is less troublesome... but what if Rocky or whoever didn't do that?
I believe there is a wide range of alignment standards within the bike industry. The average cyclist does not have the tools to check, and frame builders can't agree on minimum standards partly because alignment doesn't get discussed much.
You're 100% classy Paul. Thanks again... I always look forward to your videos.
How many Campagnolo tools do you have? You should do a video on those tools only!
I have a full boxed set of Campy tools that I bought back in the late 90s. I still use them when servicing bicycles today.
I have the Campy dropout alignment tools, one insert for facing the BB, and a pair of Campy 1" headset wrenches. That's it. Thanks for watching!
@@paulbrodie I've heard a very skilled mechanic refer to those Campy dropout alignment tools as 'coconuts'. The (probably older) model he had used rounded half-spheres that were almost the size of said nuts!
@@sampowrie6381 I have not heard that...
Uses a scissor jack….
So I’m not full of rubbish in wanting to modify the one I have for work around here?
If a scissor jack works, then use it. I use mine on a regular basis. Thanks for watching!
using a cast bb shell, if the faces are not equal to the centerline of the bores . the frame will be out, when you fill it. i was by tot by D.S.
Hi Paul looking at your site i wonder if you can shed any light on an issue i have with 2018 giant e bike it just destroys chains and hubs derailleurs every 300miles or less its a yamaha motor
Sorry, I have very limited experience with maintaining e bikes.
That looks like a bit of a goodbye to Framebuilding 101?????
Framebuilding 101 is alive on Paul Brodie's Shop. Different format, larger audience.
Thanks for your video.. im planning to build my own frame,😊
Very good. I hope it works out well for you.
What an awesome space to take a class. Thanks for the alignment tips. Very helpful.
There is a big discrepancy between the ‘big table’ and reality.
I got a question, doesnt the oversized parts of the tubing influence the part where the tube is bending?
It could, yes.
Only problem is you didn’t isolate the bent part of the tube so no matter what the you do since you didn’t isolate the bend is that the tube is still bent, and therefore the top tube is bent in 2 places now not one. Don’t believe me, run a dial indicator on the tube please and show me the video.
In the world of steel Framebuilding, some tubes are straight, and some tubes are not so straight. I also believe that a small percentage of builders put effort into building a straight frame, while most either don't know how, or just don't care. It is hard to make a living as a Framebuilder, so good alignment is a series of steps that are often missed or overlooked. What I have tried to show in this video is the basics of Alignment, using a surface table and some basic fixturing.... Using a dial indicator to figure out if there is a slight bend in a tube is complete overkill, at least in my books. But, thanks for watching and commenting...
No micrometers, lasers and granite surface tables? And you call it "fussy alignment"? Nah... ;-)
Of course, I'm kidding. Great instructional video - and while nothing "new" (all the info has been "out there" for quite some time already), it still shows the whole process clearly "from the start (BB) to the end" - with all details and practical hints, like "CrMo memory" stuff. As I mentioned before (in my another comment under another video of yours) I"m not a frame builder, although occasionally I do some minor frame repairs (replacing damaged drop-outs, and such), but aligning frames is just part and parcel of "general fixing" of bikes anyway.
Now, I just remembered my first frame alignment attempt I did back in '92 or so, while I didn't have much (if any) clue about frame geometry and all - a friend of mine had a cheap steel road bike that "rode like drunk" (in his words). I took a look at it and noticed its wheels were "crossed" (i.e. not parallel), so without much ado (or thinking) I stripped the bike, put the head tube into some fixture, and twisted the frame until wheels were "aligned" (parallel, but I never checked if they were in one plane).
Happy and proud of my achievement I began to reassembly the bike, and then half-way I noticed... that NOW the head tube and seat tube were seriously crossed. So much so that you could see it easily with a naked eye (and half drunk)...
What the... bike? Nolens volens I "realigned" the frame back, so the head and seat tubes were parallel again, but then I was back to square one with the rear wheel... Sodding bast... erm, "bike", of course - so, what do I do now? Cut the seat stay, or what?!
"Exactly so", as it turned out - after closer inspection I found out that bike was poorly welded at the factory - right seat stay was attached to seat tube approx. 10-15 mm lower than the left one... So I took an angle grinder, cut the welds, repositioned the stay and welded it (with MIG, as it was the only thing I had and know how to use back then) back where it was supposed to be.
Crude fix, but hey, it worked! Well, at least it made the whole "bike resembling thingy" (it was tad worse than early Norwegian DBS* bikes) act more or less like a normal bike. Rideable it became, that is.... but I digress here ;-)
__________
*DBS stands, apparently, for "Den Besten Sykkel", Norwegian for "The Best Bike". Oh, what a joke it is... Those bikes are (or "used to be", at least) a perfect Christmas gift for a very... naughty and recalcitrant kids.
You seem to have an appreciation for bicycle frame alignment; something a lot of folks don't. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@paulbrodie Yeah, I have, and that's the part of bigger problem, y'see... I am... well, how should I put it... Shall I say "fussy"? Or just "fastidious"? Well, whatever... ;-)
Cheers!
Usted es un gran maestro. Ahora toca conseguir esas herramientas o hacerlas.
Gracias por compartir sus conocimientos.
Thanks for watching..
Even better on the second viewing. Thanks again Paul.
You sir is a very good mecanical teatcher☺️☺️☺️👌
Thank you Robert.
can we do this metod with full lugs bicycle frame type?
Yes, you can! :)
Brilliant amount of information thanks again you’re saving me a lot of money and allowed me to go in a different direction 😊👍
Right on.
I wonder about asymmetric frames and how to align them
You would probably have to incorporate spacer blocks of some kind...
Thank you a lot Paul! Your videos are a real pleasure in those strange times.I'm learning some nice tricks, thank you again. If you would make a video on checking a motorcycle frame it would be amazing. Ciao from Filandro!
To align a motorcycle frame you need a heavy duty "alignment cage" to push and pull the frame with hydraulics. I do not have one of those, sorry. Thanks for watching!
@paul brodie Hi Paul, a long time ago, I remember watching a motorcycle frame repairer aligning frames virtually exactly the way you do, except that he had a very solidly anchored fixture to attach the bottom bracket to. He aligned by hand, but used much longer bars than you do to give him the leverage to create the force needed. I also saw him demonstrate how much stiffer you can make a frame with the addition of some very simple relatively small gussets. The difference in resistance to twisting force is astonishing. I have another engineering friend here in Melbourne who currently makes motorbike frames, and if they're not aligned when they come off the jig, he either does them by hand with long levers, or uses a very simple hydraulic jack set up to align them. It's great watching you demonstrating these techniques, my oldest son is doing a welding apprenticeship, and wants to start a shop building custom bicycle frames. This will be the first clip I forward to him. I think your channel will be enormously helpful, and of course it's always easier for someone other than 'dad' to teach them.
Andrew thanks for your great comment. Yes, motorcycles can be viewed as very heavy duty bicycles in some ways. I was always reading motorcycle magazines when I was a kid and became quite aware of gussets and how they could increase strength. Thanks for watching!
Thanks so much for making your channel Paul. I've built two fillet brazed frames and I'm soaking up your content like a sponge. Seeing you jump on the front triangle while it's bolted to your jig/plate brings back memories!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you ,, you have educated me . I'm really surprised that the "expensive" table is out of wack ,
I got here one year later, but it was still a very impressive video! I don't build bike frames (or repair them), but I have 3 bikes and I'm pretty sure they are not aligned - now I have some input on how to check them. Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
@@paulbrodie My pleasure 🙂
Your bottom bracket is not centerd from the beginning..?
I think it is..
Very good tips. Thanks🚲🚲🚲
Thank you Mark.
Amazing there are no weld burns on the straightening plate.
Yes, totally amazing! 😉
This was simply delightful to watch! thanks for sharing all that knowledge and experience Paul. It's priceless, really :)
Thank you Martin.
Paul Brodie Bike whisperer thanks
thank you for sharing this! i dont have the space for an alignmet table as a hobbyist, but your method should work fine in the tight space i have.
and its very impressive how far you have to move a frame to get it to bend permanently
Yes, some frames are pretty tough and have a lot of "spring". Thanks for watching!
I like starting with bottom bracket seems logical
Yes, that's where most frame builders start. There are a few exceptions... 😉
Awesome videos, I'm learning a lot. I'm looking to get a 1987 gt performer with the rear tripod bent and a small dent in the down tube. So this is a great help. Thank you.
woah, woah, woah. You adjusted the v block for the head tube alignment. And is the bottom bracket datum clamp vertical? The wedge blocks on the underside of the table would have to be machined to get a good normal. Granted, your posts have a large base, but flipping the frame has to just work.
It would be fascinating to take a current carbon frame and jig it. At least with steel frames, the tubes were held in blocks when brazed. The carbon frames are either going to be perfect or perfect crap.
I know I'm not the only framebuilder to flip a frame and get a different reading. Part of the problem is it's almost impossible to get the bottom bracket faces to be perfectly parallel with each other. It is not a perfect system.Yes, I would like to check some carbon frames.
@@paulbrodie Can you get the bottom bracket coplanar using the Campy bottom bracket taps and facing tool? I worked with Proctor in Edmonton for a summer and the Campy tool set was incredible. It was nice being able to get rid of tight spots in the steering by facing the head tube and fork crown.
@@andreichichak5242 Yes, that's what I did on this frame. I should have checked to see just how parallel they were. I did check today after all that aligning last week. They were out .003" which I think is not bad.
Always informative with with amazing snippets... I made my 2 of my frame alignment tools eg: "Brodie Sticks".... simple and effective tools.....a good solid bench and vice needed......now to make a fork stay jig.....and.....
....Hummmm how to do the final head tube seat stay alignment without a flat solid table? Thanks again!
A wealth of knowledge. The mark of a good tradesman is doing things in the simplest most efficient way possible.
I enjoyed watching the process and wish some of LBS in my area would adopt a similar process in frame alignment. Very educational, thank-you. On another note, in your opinion would you attempt to straighten out a wrinkle in a steel top tube and down tube due to a head on collision or replace both tubes? This is a vintage bike and would prefer to keep as much original as possible.
A head on collision usually produces more than just a "wrinkle". Replacing both tubes is quite a bit of work and is not cheap. You will have to figure out if your Vintage bike bike is worth the cost, time, energy, and paint job to make it a worthwhile and viable project. Good luck 😉
6:29, this seems where the error comes from in this method. Where was it established that the reference height here (which everything is based off after) is accurate?
Its not. I saw this and was expecting it to be off, and it was when you flipped it.
Yes you measured close to the bottom bracket, but you didn’t truly reference it off the height or the bottom bracket. You referenced it off the down tube, which you proceeded to show a couple steps was out of alignment. You had to bend it up away from the table to straighten it and bring it line with the bottom bracket.
If at this moment instead of setting it off the downtube side of the bottom bracket junction your result would be different.
The height gauge is never properly set, therefore all measurements using it are off.
If you read through the comments, a lot of viewers have told me where I made a mistake, and a better way to use the table... We had that surface table for about 5 years. In that time I showed every student both methods of alignment, and do you know how many used that big surface table? Not one. My system is easier to learn, and more accurate...
@@paulbrodie Thanks for the reply! The 2nd method is what I am planning on using. I started a mobile bike repair business last year and am finally making myself some alignment gauges. I like the threaded feeler of your design!
@@ExplorinDoranRBrown Good luck with your repair business!
While upgrading my welding certificates at Kwatlen College Langley, the bike welding builders would come and try the best Tig welders ready to graduate, for building alu frames.
Can you use the Park Tool FFS-2 Frame and Fork Straightener to align the rear triangles at home? I have a Trek 990 and the right chain stay is too close to the crankset and crank arm. Thanks.
Thank you so much. This will help preserve the tiny precious bit of sanity I still have.
Thanks for watching!
Hello, really fascinating video! I was wondering if you could use two machinist precision levels to align seattube to headtube? That way you would not need the table at all?
In theory you can, but how do you balance 2 levels on top of small diameter tubing? And if it is out of alignment, how do you straighten it? Thanks for commenting...
@@paulbrodie many engineers spirit levels have following features: 2 levels built in one 90° from eachother, magnets and a groove in the bottom to use with tubes. My comment was kinda dumb talking about 2 levels when they are built into one. Also it is much easier to build a fixture for just bending the frame compared to building a precise table. Hope this made sense✌🏻
@@eurobeatmachinist732 Yes it made sense. There are probably many ways to align a frame. Framebuilding as a career is about time and efficiency. I'll bet I can align faster with my method than using 2 spirit levels. Thanks for commenting.
you've just saved me thousands of dollars
Glad to help. Thanks for watching!
@@paulbrodie Could you share how you make the small surface table?
@@syl_diy It is 1" steel plate, nothing fancy. I phoned my local machine shops to see who had the biggest grinder. One shop could handle an 18" X 30" plate, so I phoned my local metal supplier and ordered that size. It's just large enough for "most" bicycle frames.
Interesting, mesmerizing, and relaxing.
Thanks Jo!
Wow ,,, I never knew that this is where Mighty Mitch made his debut .
Ive never seen a surface table like that , is it a special one for bike frame building .?
good grief , now Im half way through , and have serious doubts that the surface table is even flat , it would do for making gates on or rough welding jobs ,,,, but thats it.
made it to the end , your simple hand tools work the best and follow total logic , the only other thing I would have done was put the frame back on the surface table as a known , and see how far out the table actually is.
great video , totally enjoyed it , I will never true a bike frame , but so much of this translates into so many other engineering problems ,.. many thanks for showing us this.
Awesome. That’s finesse 😉👌👌
Thank you :)
Interesting and thanks for the video. Quoting the old adage "measure twice" Would it have not been better to measure alignment, then flip the frame over and measure again. Would this not provide the full picture of the alignment? Then let the bending begin!
I have never been able to get consistency on the big surface table. Flipping the frame over is time consuming, because you might might to re-position the "whipping post" that holds the BB. I'm just not a fan. Thanks for watching!
Also, since you've stopped teaching Framebuilding 101 at the university, what's happening to all the tooling and parts? Is someone else "picking up the torch" and continuing to teach that class? Thanks again!
All the tooling and parts that were mine are back in my shop. I think we can say that Covid put an end to Framebuilding 101. I like to think that I have "transitioned" to this channel on TH-cam. I've looked but I don't see anyone else with a torch. Sorry.
Hi Paul, i just bought a cheap mtb, and it has semi horizontal DO, the problem is one is higher than other about 2-3mm, so the rear wheel is tilted.
can i cold set or hack that?
Then you have to file the dropout so that the rear wheel sits correctly. Make sure your rear wheel is in dish before you do that...
@@paulbrodie been thinking about that too, but to file a hard steel DO is sounds like a lot of sweat and soreness haha.
Alright then, thanks Paul 👍🏻
@@31.8mm What do you think frame building is? Framebuilding is a LOT of hard work. There are no shortcuts to doing the job right.
When I was a student in the machine shop the way the chuck key being left in the chuck was handled was a demonstration by the teacher. Everyone stood to one side. He put the key in and punched the start button with a bit of tubing. The chuck key fetched up in the wall that was some decent distance away with almighty bang. Yes the wall had numerous holes in it! Then we were taken to the office and shown his 'archive' of accidents involving Lathes that he had attended as an OHS inspector over the years. What was seen cannot be unseen. Over the next two years nobody in the class left the chuck in that I ever saw.
Yes, that is certainly one way of leaving an impression. You can also damage the lathe and the chuck key, so that would not be my first choice. But thanks :)
A drill press I have came with a chuck key with a spring centre bit so it will pop out if you aren't holding it in. Might be a good idea for a student use lathe in a school.
There's no way China is making all those checks on the frames. I guess that's why custom costs more. You get what you pay for.
True.
This was great! thank you, would love to see a fork alignment too
The Unicrown video has fork alignment, and so does the Gatorblade video, which also happens to be our very first video.
Hello Paul your a good man, you answered almost all the comments in this channel, God bless you Paul! Take care!
Thank you Shem. Yes, so far I can keep up with the comments. Not sure what happens as the channel grows!
What about alluminum frame alignment?
Yes, aluminum frames need to be aligned as well...
Just got a chance to watch this video and I'd bet you...a coffee!... that if you had that table surface ground now you'd see a huge difference to the better.
No doubt that was an unseasoned casting when they ground it and it warped.
A granite AA surface plate would be delightful overkill. Drill it for thread-serts and amaze your friends!
You might be right, but I have never had consistent results using a big surface table. It's not my table so I can't go back and recheck if it is warped from being "unseasoned"..
@@paulbrodie Not blowing smoke at you Paul. Cast iron has a lot of stresses from the cooling process, carbon content and machining. Rapid and uncontrolled cooling leads to tool destroying surface hardness and haphazard or cost expedient machining results in pretzel product. The old method of normalizing stresses in castings was to leave them outside for a year or two through varying weather. You can also hang them and physically beat the daylights out of them short of destruction. Depending on the final desired results, grinding and scraping would be the finishing procedures. Not offering all this to diminish your wonderful and creative tooling for frame straightening! Brilliant!
@@greybeard3759 I believe you. Years ago I heard of German auto manufacturers leaving engine castings out in the yard for a couple of years before bringing them into the shop for final machining. I had not heard of beating the castings up. Thanks for watching!
What is the dimensions of the small table?
My small table is 18" X 30". Your question just showed up after 2 months...
love your videos Paul and this has to be my favorite one yet. I hope you're healing up ok!
Thanks Eric. Yes, I am spending more time in my shop so I must be getting better! 😉
Over engineered solution vs old school, tried and true machinist practices based on basic geometric principles. Simpler is always better. Thanks for taking the time to show this.
I agree. Simpler is always better. Thanks for watching.
Thank you for your experience ;)
And thank you for watching.
Thanks Mr. Brodie. You are a true Master Builder.
That's great! What about thru axles?
I have thru axles on my MTB. What about them?
Thank you so much for sharing!
Thanks for watching!
👍👍👍💛💛💛
Excellent video! Thank you for showing both options! Really educational!
Thank you David!
I recently had a problem with mice in my shop. It’s amazing how badly mouse pee can ruin a set of parallels. Car jack is brilliant!
Years ago I had a mouse problem. They made a nest inside my Tig welder and then peed all over the circuit board. It took 3 different repair shops and $500 to get fixed. Then mice, or rats, outside my shop, ate a hole in the plastic gas tank on my lawnmower, not once, but twice.
@@paulbrodie I thought I had it bad.. ;)
@@PithyBikes Are you working on a frame now?
@@paulbrodie I started a frame over a year ago for my wife but then we moved a few towns over and I kind of fell of the wagon. Just got back on and working on finishing. Like many things, she's gotten used to being patient with me.
@@PithyBikes That's great you're back on her project! Life does get in the way some times.
I have really enjoyed watching your videos Paul. I am subscribing, and thank you for sharing. you might even find a cup of coffee coming your way!
Sounds great Steve. Thanks for watching!
Is there any school out there like where you teach around Maryland I could get enrolled in ..
Please share info
Thanks for your videos
Ken, thanks for liking our videos 😉
Great video, again. What a cool place you had there for teaching!
I am curious now, are the 101 lessons pauzed because of corona, or have the been terminated? And another question is, to what degree does a typical rider actually notice when a frame is not exactly aligned? I still ride my '96 (Raleigh) Dyna-Tech titanium mountainbike, and for all I know it could be warped as a potato chip without me even noticing. Or do you really notice it if it is not aligned?
Covid has had an effect. Let's say that Framebuilding 101 has transitioned to this channel. I am 66, fall into the high risk category, and am retired. Framebuilding 101 had a great 9.5 years at UFV. On alignment, I think a frame has to be quite far out of alignment before most riders will notice. Thanks for watching!
I figured you were younger 🙃 Over the years I had lost sight of the mtb world a bit (suspension and more and more extreme riding and the ever rising prices don’t appeal to me), so I didn’t even know you still had your shop. So kool that you can now do the nice little projects you like, and even cooler that you are sharing your knowledge and experience!
@@whateverbikes Yes, I'm retired with a TH-cam channel. What more could a guy want?
Paul, simple cure for leaving the key in the chuck; add a spring to the end of the key. By doing so you have to push the key in the square hole and if you release it, it pops out. Safety third ;-) Best, Job
Yes, I have seen that method. I'm sure it works but I would hate it and wouldn't want it on my chuck key. But thanks for mentioning it :)
@@paulbrodie I don't use it on my lathes for exactly the same reason. But it's a solution for students. I worked at a factory during my school years. They had quite a firm policy on leaving your chuck key in the chuck. If it happened twice in a two week period you where sacked. Next to this I saw one flying during my education and it made quite an impression. So I don't need a spring too. Thank you Paul. Best! Job
Excellent! Watching this video should be basic training for every wrench 101 candidate. So where do I find out info of people capable of doing such work, or more importantly telling me if it’s not worth the cash? Have an old Olmo (chain stay bridge) and a Lemond 853 (bent top tube, and rear triangle)?
If you're looking for a framebuilder in your area, try a Facebook group. Someone will know someone...
Now I want to see the fork that was on that bike when it was crashed. Bent to the left and twisted, musta been a hellova wreck.
Really a great thanks for the video which was very useful but, It takes some time so like the same they do in Manufacturing MTB OEM company?
Are you asking if every OEM bicycle manufacturer of steel frames does this alignment process? Answer is no.
@@paulbrodie can you share me a video or let me know how they do it professionally. We are electric cycle start-up and need help from like you great people
@@ashwinceo3625 Best thing to do is to visit a bicycle manufacturing company, maybe in Taiwan. I don't think you want to make the frames yourself. You will never compete with Taiwan or China.
@@paulbrodie Thank you Paul,Is it possible to find them in online
@@ashwinceo3625 I don't know. We used to deal with the Hodaka Company in Taiwan.
Following from Germany
Your Channel is fantastic.
I learned so much. 😀
Thanks for watching!
👍👌
I had a variety of bikes 🏍 through the years but never even considered the frame may have got misaligned...oh foolish me! Thanks Paul!
Love your vids...buy you a cup in Craig, Alaska sometime soon perhaps if I can't send it.
Steven, the buymeacoffee feature is easiest and found under the video in the description. Thanks for watching!