Nice, Midgard appreciates your taking yhe time to upload this video flip of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the rings Novel. The movie Tolkien does not detail Tolkien's Catholic Churchs, Turmoil.
i believe something that could’ve influenced him to include this is his love for welsh language and history. myths which often cross the line or play with the boundaries between christianity and paganism.
Tolkien had a deep appreciation for particular cultures, places, and peoples, as well as their cultural products. In his day - even more so than ours - there was a waning sense of being inside of any real culture, any real tradition, at all - which makes it very hard to feel where you're going. We especially today feel lost, unmoored, and we look to tradition for guidance. Tolkien's love of cultural traditions extended into the religious - pagan and Christian motifs had each had well over a thousand years of cultural significance in most of these cultures. And I think Tolkien was right to hold this focus. What is a story, but an engagement with old tradition, and an attempt to contribute to the next generation's inheritance? All that you are left with is entertainment, but even that starts to feel empty, meaningless after long enough.
Of course the author is the only valid source on what he was actually thinking when he wrote the stories, but I love LOTR as a Pagan and don't see any overt Catholicism in it. As with any work, people can take what they will from it.
Did Tolkien ever cite a reason for saying it’s fundamentally Christian because I really feel like that’s a stretch unless you basically define any story as Christian in some way
Well, Tolkien would probably say that all *good* stories are Christian in some way, in that their themes reflect a fundamental truth which is found, in its fullness, within a (Catholic) Christian faith. That the "secular" values you profess only make sense within an inheritance born of out western Christianity. There are no truly Atheist values - because atheism, at least going with the popular "just a lack of belief" definition, posits nothing about the nature of reality. Every claim about morality is, at best, adjacent to atheism - certainly not intrinsic to it. This is essentially incontrovertible, unless you want to describe atheism as a religious worldview - but I can only speak to one position at a time.
I was providing some background that felt important to the philosophical side, which is my main focus. But the quote is, “The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.” Tolkien did not see it as necessary to add allegory as obvious as that written by C.S. Lewis. He told a tale with powerfully Christian themes (like redemption, in Boromir), but kept it subtle, all the while crafting a story and world beautiful enough, and True enough, to be compelling to millions of people across the world. As I state in the video, Tolkien was not a gnostic - he would have affirmed that the world points toward, not away from, God. That is why a truly beautiful story, in the eyes of the great Christian artists of history, is necessarily a deeply religious story - because Truth and Beauty proceed from God, and none other.
@@NeedSomeNuanceit’s Christian on a meta level. Good and evil and spirituality in LOTR is quite specifically the Christian/Catholic meaning of those concepts, not pagan ones
As an atheist, I see the value in both the Christian & pagan virtues. This is why I love Tolkien so much. He beautifully blends the best from both cultural perspectives. Christian pity and mercy is on the same pedestal as pagan reverence to nature and the Devine feminine.
I think Tolkiens reverence to Nature is far more Christian. In as to protect the Creation of God. Because the only factions who industrialize are Saruman and Sauron both who are literal fallen Angels. However yes Tolkien managed to do the impossible. He succesfully merged nordic and germanic Folklore with Christianity. But I am curious about Tolkien and the "Divine Femine" because I have no Idea what it is and I love Mythology and folklore despite being Catholic. Could you explain it to me please?
@@HeinrichMuller-mv6hn Numenorians were amazing industrialist (specifically in deforestation) which partially lead to their fall. We modern industrialist are their ancestors who have reintroduced this most dangerous orcish magic of industrial technology back onto the world. It wrecks, perverts, and pollutes the world as originally intended by Melkor, and “Men” (humans) are tasked to heal this damage “Arda Marred” per the song of Eru. … The Divine Feminine is a pagan concept that celebrates the equal power of feminine in the creative force of the universe. This was such a consistent in pre Judeochristian pagan cultures all over the world, it was included in concept in Constantine’s Catholicism in the form of Saint Mary. Tolkien equates Mother Mary to Varda and invoking ‘Elbereth Gilthoniel’ is the same divine feminine power as a prayer to Mother Mary, but obviously the pre-Christian version. I know it’s dangerous territory for some Christians but you get a sparkling clear Christian example of the Divine Feminine in the Gnostic scrolls in the outstanding Book of Mary Magdalene. The divine feminine is mostly absent in the 3 Religions of the Book because it was written out of the early Semitic warrior clan cultures that worshiped a masculine storm god that claimed to creat the physical world by dominating the feminine chaos (the ocean) known as as Tiamat in Babylonian mythology. This is where the “Let there be Light” saying comes from. Most all major ancient city state / agriculture societies were typically trending masculine because they believed they “conquered” Mother Earth by understanding the masculine “science” of the Sky. Predicting an eclipse = priest king with unquestionable power, in which he demands a temple tomb on a ziggurat with a private chamber filled with vestal virgins, reducing and relegating the role of the Divine Feminine to purchasable baby-making pleasure sacks. Ever read CS Lewis’s ‘Till We Have Faces’ or ‘The Sibyl’ Par Lagerkvist? Lots here. Better conversation for a coffee shop than a TH-cam chat. 💖
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Between your intro and your About section - you got me. Looking forward to more.
What a nice video on the Professor's views!
Nice, Midgard appreciates your taking yhe time to upload this video flip of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the rings Novel. The movie Tolkien does not detail Tolkien's Catholic Churchs, Turmoil.
i believe something that could’ve influenced him to include this is his love for welsh language and history. myths which often cross the line or play with the boundaries between christianity and paganism.
Tolkien had a deep appreciation for particular cultures, places, and peoples, as well as their cultural products. In his day - even more so than ours - there was a waning sense of being inside of any real culture, any real tradition, at all - which makes it very hard to feel where you're going. We especially today feel lost, unmoored, and we look to tradition for guidance.
Tolkien's love of cultural traditions extended into the religious - pagan and Christian motifs had each had well over a thousand years of cultural significance in most of these cultures. And I think Tolkien was right to hold this focus. What is a story, but an engagement with old tradition, and an attempt to contribute to the next generation's inheritance? All that you are left with is entertainment, but even that starts to feel empty, meaningless after long enough.
Of course the author is the only valid source on what he was actually thinking when he wrote the stories, but I love LOTR as a Pagan and don't see any overt Catholicism in it.
As with any work, people can take what they will from it.
Bro, who cares? I love studying mythology Does that make me a pagan no
Did Tolkien ever cite a reason for saying it’s fundamentally Christian because I really feel like that’s a stretch unless you basically define any story as Christian in some way
Well, Tolkien would probably say that all *good* stories are Christian in some way, in that their themes reflect a fundamental truth which is found, in its fullness, within a (Catholic) Christian faith. That the "secular" values you profess only make sense within an inheritance born of out western Christianity.
There are no truly Atheist values - because atheism, at least going with the popular "just a lack of belief" definition, posits nothing about the nature of reality. Every claim about morality is, at best, adjacent to atheism - certainly not intrinsic to it.
This is essentially incontrovertible, unless you want to describe atheism as a religious worldview - but I can only speak to one position at a time.
@@PennedLionsPen so he didn’t?
I was providing some background that felt important to the philosophical side, which is my main focus. But the quote is,
“The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.”
Tolkien did not see it as necessary to add allegory as obvious as that written by C.S. Lewis. He told a tale with powerfully Christian themes (like redemption, in Boromir), but kept it subtle, all the while crafting a story and world beautiful enough, and True enough, to be compelling to millions of people across the world. As I state in the video, Tolkien was not a gnostic - he would have affirmed that the world points toward, not away from, God. That is why a truly beautiful story, in the eyes of the great Christian artists of history, is necessarily a deeply religious story - because Truth and Beauty proceed from God, and none other.
@@PennedLionsPen I can’t help but call him wrong in saying it’s in any way fundamentally religious or catholic. What a weird take
@@NeedSomeNuanceit’s Christian on a meta level. Good and evil and spirituality in LOTR is quite specifically the Christian/Catholic meaning of those concepts, not pagan ones
Your audio level is way too low.
I thought it was pretty good
As an atheist, I see the value in both the Christian & pagan virtues. This is why I love Tolkien so much. He beautifully blends the best from both cultural perspectives. Christian pity and mercy is on the same pedestal as pagan reverence to nature and the Devine feminine.
I think Tolkiens reverence to Nature is far more Christian. In as to protect the Creation of God. Because the only factions who industrialize are Saruman and Sauron both who are literal fallen Angels. However yes Tolkien managed to do the impossible. He succesfully merged nordic and germanic Folklore with Christianity. But I am curious about Tolkien and the "Divine Femine" because I have no Idea what it is and I love Mythology and folklore despite being Catholic. Could you explain it to me please?
@@HeinrichMuller-mv6hn Numenorians were amazing industrialist (specifically in deforestation) which partially lead to their fall. We modern industrialist are their ancestors who have reintroduced this most dangerous orcish magic of industrial technology back onto the world. It wrecks, perverts, and pollutes the world as originally intended by Melkor, and “Men” (humans) are tasked to heal this damage “Arda Marred” per the song of Eru. … The Divine Feminine is a pagan concept that celebrates the equal power of feminine in the creative force of the universe. This was such a consistent in pre Judeochristian pagan cultures all over the world, it was included in concept in Constantine’s Catholicism in the form of Saint Mary. Tolkien equates Mother Mary to Varda and invoking ‘Elbereth Gilthoniel’ is the same divine feminine power as a prayer to Mother Mary, but obviously the pre-Christian version. I know it’s dangerous territory for some Christians but you get a sparkling clear Christian example of the Divine Feminine in the Gnostic scrolls in the outstanding Book of Mary Magdalene. The divine feminine is mostly absent in the 3 Religions of the Book because it was written out of the early Semitic warrior clan cultures that worshiped a masculine storm god that claimed to creat the physical world by dominating the feminine chaos (the ocean) known as as Tiamat in Babylonian mythology. This is where the “Let there be Light” saying comes from. Most all major ancient city state / agriculture societies were typically trending masculine because they believed they “conquered” Mother Earth by understanding the masculine “science” of the Sky. Predicting an eclipse = priest king with unquestionable power, in which he demands a temple tomb on a ziggurat with a private chamber filled with vestal virgins, reducing and relegating the role of the Divine Feminine to purchasable baby-making pleasure sacks. Ever read CS Lewis’s ‘Till We Have Faces’ or ‘The Sibyl’ Par Lagerkvist? Lots here. Better conversation for a coffee shop than a TH-cam chat. 💖