Project Suntan - The Lockheed CL-400
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ธ.ค. 2019
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After the U-2 but before the SR-71 was created, another reconnaissance aircraft was planed by the USAF and designed by Lockheed's Kelly Jonhson to take the place of the CIA's U-2.
This that would be powered by liquid hydrogen and fly 30,000ft higher than the U-2 at 100,000 ft but the difficulties of working with hydrogen at that time put paid the to project. However the top-secret project did ultimately lead to the SR-71 and the advanced use of hydrogen in the upcoming space programs. This is the story of the Lockheed CL-400.
Written, researched and presented by Paul Shillito
Images and footage: NACA, NASA, Lockheed, Pratt & Whitney, Jozef Gatial
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Walt Dennig - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
"Oversize Lockheed F-104 Starfighter" is EXACTLY what I thought when I saw the design of the CL-400 Suntan!
I recall a mention somewhere that the U-2 even used some F-104 jigs (or at least jigs based on 104 jig designs).
fustigate314159 - Its engine was the same as that used by the F-104, but without the afterburner.
Absolutely mate...long body with small wings and even the elevators at the top of the tail.
Also looks a bit like this at 7min40sec th-cam.com/video/RUYMGBRfy-k/w-d-xo.html
Simon Johansen Indeed and F104 have a bad reputation
A "ground breaking" aircraft does not seem like a good description.
"We here at Flying School try to avoid phrases such as 'Dead Reckoning' and 'Crash Course'."
Don’t think they thought that one out.
Earth Shattering is not good either (unless you are selling explosives or missiles).
That would be another Lockheed product, the F-104 Starfighter. We Germans called it "Erdnagel", groundnail.
It must be Japanese
Looks like a large F-104 Star fighter, despite the Starfighter's reputation, I always liked the design.
The Starfighter is a fine plane. The German Luftwaffe presses the 104 into roles it weren’t meant for which is why it has such a high loss rate with ONLY Germany, and not nearly as high a loss rate with other countries
Starfighter is a very beautiful plane. I think it's unfortunate nicknames (ground stake, widow maker, aluminum death tube, etc) are a result of pressing a supersonic interceptor into a ground attack role.
The irony to me is that the SR-71 was developed for the Air Force as an offshoot of the CIA's A-12 Oxcart. Both and their YF-12 cousin are straight up badass planes and we'll never see the likes of them again.
Odd that no-one talks about the A-11... (One prototype was built but it's radar cross section was too large so they redesigned the wing and tail into the A-12).
Which raises questions about A-1 to A-10....
@@allangibson8494
Well the A-2 design for one, can be seen at 8:45 in the video . . .
@@stickiedmin6508 Supposedly that's a drawing of the A-10, not an "A-2."
@@brianjob3018
The caption underneath the picture calls it Archangel II.
The best shirts on TH-cam.
R Freitas *on TH-cam, but yes
The first of his shirt I would actually buy... ;)
@@mikaxms tks
Love this shirt!
They're the bomb!
Johnson was a genius
@Rombert Dillahuntsvalle Bah, that dude's nothing compared to that damn Swede.
We're talking about Kelly Johnson.
Aerial refueling with liquid hydrogen would also be a pain in the ass and would require large modifications on the tankers. The SR-71 could do it with standard equipment.
@Erich Klein I think the point remains that it was much easier to outfit the current fleet than design a new delivery system, not sure tho
www.ga.com/general-atomics-awarded-army-contract-for-hydrogen-generation-system-prototype
they still gonna try
@@AikonikBoy A far cry from air-to-air refueling, though. This is a contract for refueling fuel cells, not jet aircraft. Maybe they can scale it up...
The kc-135 should have been fast enough to fuel it up
@Erich Klein , not to mention that by 1995, nobody was making parts for the SR-71. Maintenance costs got to be too high for the value of the intel returned.
Paul needs to be on TV. He would nail ratings doing this on a weekly show.
Literally searched for a video on Suntan last week and found nothing. Thank you, once again, CuriousDroid!
I’ve just sat down with a nice coffee and then I see a new Curious Droid video. Bliss!
Same here! Seems such a long time ago the cold war, spy planes, the Cuban Missle Crisis, nuclear stalemate, MAD etc. It seemed so vitally important back then but in the end it was a collosal waste. The USSR is gone and threats to national security come in the form of virtual reality bits and bytes.
The U2 took a lot of pictures, but it still hasn’t found what it’s looking for.
Benghali In Platforms
Unlike the retired SR-71, the U2 is still in service. It will keep flying With or Without You.
A United States U-2 spy plane was shot down by the Soviet Air Defence Forces while performing photographic aerial reconnaissance deep into Soviet territory. The single-seat aircraft, flown by pilot Francis Gary Powers, was hit by an S-75 Dvina surface-to-air missile and crashed near Sverdlovsk. One Soviet soldier was killed by friendly fire surrounding this incident. This occurred on May 1st, 1960, which was a Sunday, Bloody Sunday.
@@jerrysmith4026 Luckily, it was only One plane, one life.
Good one
The U2 spy plane flew at a seriously high ......Elevation 😜
Ladies and gentlemen of the class of 19.
If I could offer you only one tip of advice for the future
Sunscreen would be it.
LudosErgoSum Lovely song
Never heard of this. Thanks and a happy new year.
Love this channel, so, so interesting. Have a happy new year Paul. Take care mate 👍
I have missed this one until now. Putting a past on the skin and bones of the SR-91.
Thank you for the back to back videos that tied in nicely!
Dude, you're one of the few, of the 300 + videos I've subscribed to, that I can actually watch all the way through. You're clever in waiting until you're finished to do your ad. Most people try to do several ads in the beginning and to me that turns me off and I end up flicking them like a booger. You're legit bro. I'm hungry for knowledge, gimmie more, "please" ...lol... 🤓
New Curious Droid video... now my Christmas is complete!
Thanks for that, my father was budget director on U2, and What was called the Oxcart.....he would have been 107 yesterday....nice way to remember him....oh, he was also NSA but we didn’t know about that...then !
8:10 Looks like a Stunt Car Racer track, good stuff.
Excellent video! Many thanks for posting it!
I had no idea of this aircraft.
HAPPY NEW YEAR 2020
Greetings from Guatemala!
Skunk works..... best book I read in high school when doing algebra, welding, and auto motive rebuild/design.
Thanks dad. Best book you gave me
Edit: respelled red to read.
I enjoy every single second of your content paul, i sincerely appreciate your work! Thank you for providing this kind of videos to all of us!
Very very well done! Greetings from austria
Thanks a ton! Was looking for a good video on Suntan a few months ago to no avail!
Another well produced video. Thank you, Paul.
Every single time I see the "CD" on the thumbnails, I think it's a "Captain Disillusion" video.
Hello :]
CD and CD both are great channels
I love both
Oh, damn. No coincidence that the best TH-cam channels have "CD" as initials.
4:13: The correct term for something classified "above" Top Secret is either SCI (Sensitive compartmented information) or SAP (Special access program).
All became quiet for a deafening fraction of a second as the man widely believed to be a spook entered the room.
Except iirc such terms didnt exist at the time... They only showed up later on in the 60s.
@@pakde8002 Not a spook. Just somebody who did a Google search...
@@captiannemo1587 According to Wikipedia, they weren't formalized until the 60's, but some form was used informally in the 1950's: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_access_program
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitive_Compartmented_Information
Every time I see NOFORN I think No Fornicating.
I am always amazed how your videos are so interesting. Things that I have never heard of always end up being good videos. Keep up the great work. This is one of the few channels that I both subscribe too and have notifications turned on.
Again, another great presentation about the history of a military aircraft. Thank You!
Another forgotten masterpiece of engineering brought into the light, good one!
The euphemism, operation suntan hid a very real cost to at least some U2 pilots. Even equipped with what were considered solar protective suits, some encountered the onset of premature mortal conditions, many years after their service.
Agent orange destroyed a lot of vets of the Viet Nam war.
The tests of the atomic bombs took out a lot of soldiers, when they were exposed to the X Ray's of the tests.
There were many "experiments" the military used solders, sailors and airmen as Ginny pigs, and not having a clue of the dangers.
War is hell!
Great video as always. Thank you and merry Christmas to you
I remember arriving at Okinawa enroute to Viet Nam in '69, standing in line to get our orders stamped at Kadena AFB. While engaged in that noble duty one of our number made a surprised remark and all eyea went to the inbound traffic. I learned later that "THING" was an SR-71, but NObody knew what the hell it was!
Thanks for an extremely interesting bit of aircraft history. This made me want to subscribe, and sorry I didn't long ago. Looking forward to more of your great posts.
One of the best Channels on TH-cam.
Great video as always..Thanks for using both comparisons of miles/feet with meters/kilometers. It helps with measuring.
Can’t wait to watch, looks great!
Straight to the point and we'll presented. Thank you. You've made a fan out of me. I look forward to watching your content. Once again, thank you.
LOVE all of your videos! Thank you for this one. You’re awesome!
This channel crushes it every time. Well done!
Your enunciation is the best Curious Droid!
You make some of the best educational videos, keep up the good work:)
Always entertaining and informative and is just me or does this guy have the perfect voice for these videos
Love these historic technology videos, they are so interesting
I love your videos - excellent research, great archival footage and images. And of. course - your immaculate sense of style!
The budget allocated for the project was 96 million USD but, at the time of its cancelletion, only 6 were spent for the feasibility study phase: 90 million USD were therefore returned to the Air Force by Kelly Johnson.
Sorce: Skunk Works: A Personal Memoir of My Years of Lockheed by Ben Rich & Leo Janos, awesome reading!!! :D
MRN
Just what I needed after a shitty work day. Thanks, Curios Droid Team ! 🤘🏻👍🏻😎
7:42 "put my boys up there with a bomb?" Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay..lol that is ironic
I've heard that LeMay quote before, but the _hydrogen bomb connection_ never occurred to me...lol
{When I FIRST heard that quote YEARS ago, I might NOT have known that SAC at one time had H-bombs airborne in B-52's for 24/7.}
@@Allan_aka_RocKITEman Yes, it was called Operation Chrome Dome. During that period several bombs were lost in accidents, one near Tybee Island off Georgia, another in I believe Kentucky, and the infamous Palomeres incident in Spain where contaminated soil was scraped up into drums and taken back to the US. The second bomb had fallen offshore and it took the Navy many weeks to locate it, as it was found at around 6,000 feet, and new recovery methods had to be developed, as this was by far the deepest recovery ever attempted. And finely there was an accident in Greenland where the core broke open and pieces of Plutonium contaminated the runway. If you look in Wikipedia there are probably a whole list of them, these are just off the top of my head.
The proven stupidity of American brass.
@@RedLP5000S LeMay may have been crazy, but he was certainly not stupid. Anti-American bigotry, on the other hand is as stupid as it is common.
@@RCAvhstape who said thats "anti american"? Only an indoctrinated idiot comes out with phrases like that, usually because their too dumb to critically examine the actions of those they vote for or have as commanders. Only an idiot then refuses to accept when those same poor leaders make bad decisions and follow blindly. This type of thinking destroys democrocy, THATS anti american!!
To infinity and beyond! Best of lucky in the new decade. Keep up the good work in the 2020s.
I get so drawn in to Droids videos that if i don't like the video before he stays talking I'll forget to by the end of it. Do much info and keeps you interested every second
Videos like this are why I love your channel. It’s like a Wikipedia run but in video form.
All of you videos rock. None of them suck. Best content ever
2 uploads in one week, let's celebrate
Cheers
I live nearby the APIX site in Palm Beach County, FL. Pratt & Whitney used a straw purchaser to buy the 9,000 acres that makes up the current United Technologies facility (which also includes the APIX site and eventually Sikorsky Helicopters) which then sold the property to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, which then transferred the property to the US government who finally transferred ownership to UT. This was back in the early 1950s when barely anyone lived further than a few miles of the coast in Palm Beach County. This land was in the middle of a swamp with no one around for tens of miles.
UT then formed a fake town called Apix (creative, aren’t they) which they then advertised as a fertilizer producing facility. They even platted a piece of property for making it seem as though they were planning a community for their workforce. Apix was even given its own census designation, again to make it appear to be a fertilizer producing facility which planned to become a full on community. Apix appears on maps of the era, and continued to do so on maps created years after the facility was abandoned. Additionally, the railroad that runs along the front of the site has a signal called “Apix” which is still in use under that name today.
Very littler remains of the 3 bears except for what appears to be some building foundations, the pond you see in this video, the roads, and what seems to be a few leftover odds and ends. None of this can be verified or explored because it is located within the existing UT facility boundaries which has highly restricted access. I have not been able to find any footage or photos of the site up close as it is today.
An F-104 on steroids!
My thaughts excactly!
It DID resemble a Starfighter!
That's not far off from what the U2 was as well.
@@hydrochloricacid2146 yes indeed, that fuselage and trapezoidal shape of wings are pretty close. Of course, way overstretched in the U2.
@@DeePal072 IIRC early development prototypes for the U2 were basically f/x104 fuselage with long wings
Really good and informative video, keep 'em comming!
Great vid. Thanks. Never heard of this project.
There's a great bit in the Ben Rich Skunkworks book about hydrogen fires. It is a great demonstration of thinking as well. The images at 3:02 probably relate to the incident from the book. A highly recommended read, especially for insights into how Kelly Johnson worked and how he achieved what he achieved.
The U2 too was seen as a Starfighter with bigger range, hence much longer wings. It was the starting point of the design of the U2
Curious Droid waiting for after the new mandalorian episode to drop. Smart
It was great!
@@TheGreatSteve it was great! This is the way
all ways good stuff thanks
You are very good at Explaining things, thanks for putting up another great Video!!
Recent declassified Soviet documents revealed that Gary Powers' U-2 wasn't downed directly by the SAM. The SAM actually hit a MiG that was trying to get to altitude in pursuit and debris (shrapnel) from that explosion hitting the U-2 is what brought it down.
How did I not see this episode until now?! Odd but glad I did.
I've posted about it here before, but anyone that is interested in the development of early Skunkworks aircraft (U-2, CL-400, SR-71, and even though the F-117) should definitely read Ben Rich's book on the subject. He worked under Kelly Johnson and became the project manager at Lockheed during the F-117 program. A fascinating behind the scenes look at these programs.
You make the most amazing videos and have a talent for making complex physics easy to understand. ! I wish you narrated for other channels. You'd be the David Attenborogh of TH-cam. Keep being amazing!
I am blessed by more CD content 🙏
Wonder who programmed Droid to do such good work on forgotten unimportant History. New times face new challenges as if we didn't know that.
The PW304 looks to be an interesting engine. From that diagram:
Air enters the intake and is compressed by the fan.
Core air is then mixed with gaseous hydrogen, before being burned in the main burner.
Combustion products flow through an air side of an air-to-hydrogen heat exchanger, thereby cooling the combustion products.
The combustion products are then re-heated by the afterburner, before passing through a propelling nozzle.
Meanwhile, a main engine shaft powered hydrogen pump pumps liquid hydrogen to the heat exchanger.
The liquid hydrogen is heated by the combustion gasses to gasify the hydrogen.
The gases hydrogen then flows forward through a turbine, thereby expanding through and driving the turbine.
This heated hydrogen is then fed through the main burner and afterburner in sequence.
The turbine is coupled to the compressor and hydrogen pump, closing the cycle. One advantage is that the cycle temperature can be very high, without damaging the turbines, since they are powered by expanding hydrogen gas, not the combustion products.
Clever!
If you stare at this shirt for long a 3D picture of an alien appears lol.
But only at the edges . . .
ProTip: I've you aspire to troll, don't use 'lol' in the attempt.
@@sunnyjim1355 If you feel the need to comment, please choose a language you're good at : )
@@sunnyjim1355 I'm not sure of what your saying, besides don't use lol.
'Pixelating the Xmas party branding-iron marks didn't work, he needs a shirt'. Thanks & Happy New Year Curious Droid : )
great as always!
I don't see any link to your Patreon if you have on. If you don't, you should make one. These videos are very well researched and presented. We are many nerds who would like to chip in to make sure you keep making these.
Future videos ideas: Avro 730, Barnes Wallace Bomber, Blue Streak rocket and Hermes shuttle. Keep up the good work.
that was the 1st thing i thought of when i saw the image of the plane: Avro 730!!!
There was a similar prototype the guy made befor this one that really started all the tech. The plane here, the blackbird, and even our newest fighters all used parts of the original planes plans. Cant recall the name, star something.
The book "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich - has a short but good run down on Suntan. They had lots of issues with getting enough fuel for range required, keeping the fuel cold enough with aerodynamic heating, and massive logistic challenges for bases with hydrogen. In the the end Kelly Johnson recommended that they cancel the project. It took a few meetings to resolve, but the airforce reluctantly agreed. Kelly refunded the remaining unspent $90million of the $96M budget. (Skunkworks 1994. Pages187-190)
Thank you for the video. Very interesting plane, and it's concerning that the Air Force felt that it needed to be the top dog in this area.
Very interesting video. Knew only a little about the CL-400. Also like the shirt
Absolutely love your Videos mate,,,great job👍👍
Thank you for this very well made video.
Your videos are fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all this interesting knowledge. You made covid a lot more fun. Cheers
Never knew Zordon was into tech this deep .... oh wait.
JK. I love your videos. Thanks a lot.
I love your videos. Clear, well narrated, interesting and novel. I would watch a video from Curious Droid making Ramen Noodles and trust it would be informative! Cheers!
Liked and shared!
I enjoyed your presentation.
And pray it brings continuance.
Some related reading: Skunk Works by Ben Rich, Kelly Johnson's successor. A lot of extra details about development of these planes and inner workings of Skunk Works.
With modern engine tech, composite structures, and COPV tech, I think it would be an amazing platform.
That's, Basically, What The British Skylon Spaceplane Concept Is.
Awesome content as always!
Having the engines that far out on the wingtips looks like it would put a lot of load on the wings. Was there any advantage to have them that far out rather than closer to the fuselage (like the SR-71)?
Cleaner air
Lockheed Martin is on another level with making jets. They are geniuses
5:30 “the only way to increase the range would be to dramatically increase the size of the aircraft itself” - a book that discusses the CL-400 shows several impractical looking alternate versions including some twice the size of this one.
There was one link you missed. The Air Products plant producing hydrogen in Florida was in support of the Centaur/RL-10 program that started a bit before Suntan.
"The RL10 was the first liquid hydrogen rocket engine to be built in the United States, with development of the engine by Marshall Space Flight Center and Pratt & Whitney beginning in the 1950s. "
"The Centaur concept originated in 1956 when Convair began studying a liquid hydrogen fueled upper stage. The ensuing project began in 1958 as a joint venture among Convair, the Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA), and the U.S. Air Force. In 1959, NASA assumed ARPA's role. Centaur initially flew as the upper stage of the Atlas-Centaur launch vehicle, encountering a number of early developmental issues due to the pioneering nature of the effort and the use of liquid hydrogen.[31] In 1994 General Dynamics sold their Convair division to Lockheed-Martin"
Ben Rich talks about it a bit in "Skunk Works".
"Although Suntan technology and equipment
found no immediate use in the aircraft
industry, in 1959, according to retired Skunk
Works President Ben Rich-who worked on the
CL-400 liquid-hydrogen systems and powerplant
requirements-"the development data on
handling, tank construction, and materials was
turned over to Convair who had just won the
Centaur rocket program. This was the first US
liquid hydrogen fueled space vehicle using a
Pratt & Whitney rocket engine, developed on
the technology acquired developing the Model
304 engine."
Sir, love your videos and you are one of my favorites TH-cam channels because your content is top quality. Now, I believe you could easily find other sponsors, I am not a big fan of NordVPN, they showed total disregard for their customers.
Love the shirt though :)
Very interesting episode. Best Regards From Snowy Cold Old Good Sweden
We actualy hawe a pretty interesting history of unusul planes and construction of rocket engines here too, the rocket engines are just much less known to man here.
Best wishes for the New Year from hot and sunny Bali 🏝🏖🌴
"Johnson, the chief designer at Skunk Works".
Be happy he's not around to hear you say that. He wasn't amused when he overheard one of his engineers answer the phone as "Skonk Works", spelled with an "o". He fired him on the spot, though I don't think it stuck as it was one of his best designers. The name came from the Lil Abner comic and was due to the smell from Lockheed plastics work located right next store.
Hydrogen is considered one type of the most dangerous industrial gases. It will leak through solid metal, and you need to have positive air pressure and circulation to avoid hydrogen pooling in dead spots. Buildups of the gas, still at fairly low concentrations, can catch fire with a simple spark, or even detonate with the right conditiins.
Well Done Sir! Keep it up!!! Oohraah!!!
It is another great video! Thank you!
that's one of your best shirts to date. you really should consider dropping a link to your shirt store and get a little kick back in exchange.
I really enjoy these, well done yet again. I'm only a little confused why the side elevation drawing says 160' but the plan view says 164' 10"? Really not fussed though! 👍
Merry Christmas!