pe·nul·ti·mate /pəˈnəltəmət/ adjective last but one in a series of things; second last. ex. "the penultimate chapter of the book" ...would now be a good or a bad time to note that I have an English degree? 😂
When EA brings the game back out, I’m shuffling some conferences and making a Magnolia League to see what happens. I’m gonna add Georgia Tech and UAB to it. I hope they have FCS so I can grab the other nerd schools
Hey guys! Sorry if my voice seems kind of off in this video---I've been battling allergies all month and it finally caught up to me this week. This is potentially the first video in a series of essays on potential bombshell moves in college football history. Of course, the whole point of "what-if" essays like this is to pose a question and theorize on outcomes, but given that it didn't happen, it's almost an empty video in that sense. I'd like to know if this topic of video is something you guys are interested in! There are plenty more video concepts to go from here!
All good dude. Been looking for a channel like this for years and when I found it a couple of months ago I watched about 6 videos in a row! Keep up the great content.
Feel better. Very interesting content. And I think your idea is on the right track. College football history isn't something a lot of youtubers are doing. Given CFBs structure there's more "could have been" champs than any other sport.
Well thought out. Thank you to my friend Robert for sending me this link. I was a historian writer in the past and wrote a piece about this, and I have read and watched a lot of media covering this. Your video is right at the top. Up until the end of 2018, I followed Vanderbilt athletics, before totally divorcing myself from being a follower. I had a lot of inside sources with the school and studied at length the almost move to leave the SEC for a Southern Ivy. SMU was the biggest holdout, as their big money boosters were 100% against this. Vanderbilt looked into leaving the SEC again in the late 1990s. Then Chancellor Joe B. Wyatt commissioned a "Committee on Intercollegiate Athletics." At the time, the athletics department had an annual 4 million dollar deficit, and the school had received a PR black eye for failing to admit basketball star Ron Mercer. The Committee looked at something like 7 different issues, and one of them was whether to remain in the SEC, or to consider another situation. All possibilities were researched--remain in the SEC, try to move to another conference such as the ACC or Big Ten, dropping to what was then I-AA, or dropping to Division 3. In the end, there were only two choices that were financially sound and stable. The two choices were either remaining in the SEC and acknowledging that the playing field would remain terribly tilted against the school, or dropping scholarship athletics and going to Division 3. The panel was divided on this issue, as it was 50-50, with half believing that the school needed to align itself with other great academic institutions such as Washington U, New York U, and the U. of Chicago. Those other schools were members in what was then called the "Nerdy Nine" conference, and after Johns Hopkins left, it was known as the "Egghead Eight" conference. The real name is the University Athletic Association. That is where Vanderbilt athletics needs to go, and the football program should probably be discontinued, with the real estate involved re-used to boost the academic standing. I haven't been to a Vanderbilt football game since 2015 nor a basketball game since 2018. I used to be so involved with the program that players and their parents contacted me for advice. Today, I cannot name one player on the football or basketball team, and a large majority of sports fans living in this area have come to the same realization, that Vanderbilt is merely a sports prostitute in the SEC. They receive a lot of money to be screwed again and again by opponents that receive satisfaction for their payments. That's why the stadium is a home game for the opponent week after week. There are only a couple thousand Vanderbilt fans remaining, or about the same amount as there are at NYU, Washington U, and the U of Chicago. FWIW, old people like me are turning away from all sports because they have all been diluted. We are big into tabletop sports strategy games, especially with teams from prior to 1970. One small correction: You referred to the 1964 Magnolia League possibly having a bowl tie-in like the Peach or Citrus. Neither existed in 1964. There were just 8 Major College bowl games then: Rose, Cotton, Sugar, Orange, Gator, Sun, Liberty, and Bluebonnet. And, the Liberty Bowl was not yet in Memphis; it was played indoors at the Atlantic City Convention Hall. There would have been no bowl tie-ins for such a conference.
a) Apparently the IVY reconsidered its athletic situation in the early 80s and reached out to schools like DUKE & VANDY. Assuming true, VANDY changed its position after ~15 years? b) When FSU joined, the ACC paid the most of any conference, but the gap wasn't as wide as today. That expansion and those that followed were driven by the "football schools", so I doubt the ACC was a likely option for VANDY. The B1G was then unlikely to take a relatively vanilla private school. Deferring on the rest, VANDY would have had 2 options that were feasible, financially sound, and stable (whatever that means in context).
@@richardalvarado-ik9br yes, and it operates at a sizeable loss. The football program has to make the money for the baseball program to exist. That's important only to keep operating a division 1 program. At D3, it would not be an issue.
@@tarheel7406 The Big Ten was so interested in Vanderbilt in 2010-11 that Jim Delaney sent third parties to meet with third parties connected to Vanderbilt at a location near either O'Hare or Midway airport in Chicago (never could pin the location down). The great attraction Vanderbilt had that the Big Ten wanted was their political influence to add to the federal funds allocated to research institutes. At the time, these federal funds dwarfed the revenue generation of athletics. The Big Ten schools are major research powers, and adding Vanderbilt, and its vast research to the league would have been like adding Notre Dame, Alabama, LSU, and Georgia football with Kentucky basketball. I believe the total R & D funds going to university research is now approaching $100 billion per year! Football cannot compete with this--yet. FWIW, Vanderbilt had begun exploring the process of leaving the SEC for the Big Ten, when a sports reporter for the Des Moines Register got the scoop and reported it. The former Indiana football coach then corroborated the story, and Vanderbilt had to deny quickly. If not for that leak, Vanderbilt would have most likely moved to the Big Ten, and Georgia Tech might have joined them.
If you had gone with a point-of-divergence in the 40s, you could have added Washington University in St. Louis as they went from offering athletic scholarships to none around that time. A slight change could have had them keep them if they were in an athletic conference that was academic oriented like the Magnolia Conference. Great video. Looking forward to see any new what if videos you might decide to produce.
interesting fact is that William and Mary is one of the few pre-revolutionary schools and is older than a couple of the Ivy’s which kinda adds to their inclusion here
@@nathanbrewer6781 wow ur right William and Mary also claims title of oldest public university and it still operates within a public model that's admirable
As a Canadian, I’ve never had much of a gateway to college football. Your videos have helped me get legitimately into this sport and I can’t thank you enough for that. Keep up the great work! Sincerely, a newfound Washington fan
The Magnolia Conference would basically be a second Big 10 rather than a second Ivy League, unless they agreed to stop giving scholarships like the Ivies it's unlikely they'd just stop expanding and inviting new members. Either they - Stick to 8 and separate from other non division schools, maybe only playing the Ivies and working with them for scheduling (which would probably make them scorned in the south) - Expand and try to stay afloat, leading to a much weaker ACC/SEC as it'd basically act like a southern Big 10
You present an interesting idea with that first scenario. If they separate from the wider collegiate sports world, only playing the preexisting Ivies, then the Magnolia could've led to something much bigger. If that is what ended up happening, then it very well could've set a precedent for other academics-based schools in other regions, like the West Coast and Midwest. If Ivy-likes ended up forming in those regions, only playing each other and the Ivy & Magnolia, then we potentially could've seen a breakaway collegiate athletics association completely separate from the NCAA & NAIA, one that's inherently focused on academics first. If my theory is feasible, I think that would've been extremely interesting, and it may have had a chance at balancing out the talent levels between them and the other two associations, even if it didn't offer scholarships. Alas, I guess we'll never know.
Disagree. The B1G then as now is primarily large (if not uber) flagships with good but not elite academic standing, the opposite of a mostly private, more academic elite membership. This alternate history Magnolia Conference has a single public school (GATECH), which is a #2.
Another great vid! Three more ideas: 1.) What if the Metro Conference stayed together (and sponsored football)? 2.) The history and future of the MEAC. 3.) the Great Midwest Conference-the important yet incredibly short-lived mid-major.
same. besides vandy and later Miami none of these teams are any good. if SMU got added the quality of play would definitely improve, but they would still be dragging the smaller schools behind them.
@@theEWDSDS TBF, most of these teams were pretty great during the mid 70's-80's... Granted maybe its different with this conference but its food for thought, Bar Davidson
@@VastContent maybe fair in quality, but not amazing. SMU was good at football through cheats, Duke is... Duke, and Tulane does Tulane things but besides MAYBE basketball there isn't a sport that they are all even decent at. Does Duke even have a football team?
@@theEWDSDS I don't disagree with you at all, I really think at max positivity it would end up being like a Big East but its fun to think of the possibilities
Exploring what you mentioned about a SWC collapse earlier and a UT-A&M switch to the SEC then- this could have opened the door for Baylor to join the Magnolia league, considering Baylor is a private college with a pretty good academic rap sheet, as well as them opening up the door for a rivalry with SMU. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Of course, this is also implying that the Big 12 doesn’t swoop them up first. Edit: Maybe also a TCU join, to save them from their G5 hell they went through before they joined the Big 12??
As a big conference realignment enthusiast, glad you came across my blog and incorporated some of my ideas into this video! Miami dominating the Magnolia would’ve been a sight to see!
UNC and UVA would have been interested in joining too. They are very well regarded academically nationally (top 30 US news) and would have wanted the prestige of being in such a league. They probably both are in and W&M is never admitted. Thus it begins its life as nine team league.
Agree with UVa. At that point in the schools history through today they choose to hamstring their recruiting capabilities due to academic standards, transfer requirements, limited investments in athletics and their honor code. The heads of the board are still heavily focused on Olympic sports and are totally comfortable with the football program being in a shambles. They've held off investing in football for decades and only recently slightly loosened the purse strings for middle of the road facility upgrades compared to others. With no TV money in play back in the day. They very well could have been recruited to this conference. If we look at current day trends the ACC is more likely to offer Tulane and Rice a place in the conference, and maybe consider Connecticut and the Service academies.
@@scottbourret1190 The then ACC (as it would be now) was likely a higher academic association than any feasible Magnolia League. Also, having public school members risks government interference on conference affairs. Finally, UVA & UNC have many ties going back to their similar founding.
Dalukes I think it would be cool if you made a video on Tulanes fall from a national powerhouse in academics and athletics, to almost moving down to D3, to where they are now
Vandy Boy here, we like the fact that we raise the GPA in the SEC. It gives us great revenue in football and we put the money into other sports. I.E. Baseball and womens sports
Emory is DIII for obvious reasons. They, like most mentioned are members of the prestigious AAU, which means they are highly respected research institutions. They are unlikely candidates to this project since getting fans in Atlanta to support two schools and their beloved Georgia Bulldogs are slim. Great article. Thanks!
I agree with some of the comments that adding Army, Navy and Wake Forest would have been great for the Mag. It would create established rivalries and travel partners. I don't think Penn State would be interested in the ACC because Joe Pa wanted an all-East conference with Syracuse, Boston College, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, Army and Navy.
Penn State is never leaving the $ but they are at least competitive in their conference. Rutgers and Maryland though are going to be doormats. Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College plus West Virginia, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Louisville would make a regional conference of eastern schools of similar strength. Their athletes wouldn't have to fly across the country for conference games to play Stanford and Cal.
This is an interesting thought experiment. I feel like this conference's arc would have paralleled something like the Metro Conference from the 70s. The initial thing that bound these schools together would have eventually become less important than other factors. The bigger schools get picked off, smaller schools in-fill, and the conference is gone by the late 80s.
As a Rice alumnus, I’m loving this idea. The Ivy League commands a lot of respect - it’s such marketable branding, and has become synonymous with elitism. They are great schools, don’t get me wrong, but I’ve also fired Ivy League grads before because they were arrogant, ignorant, and didn’t work hard (the individuals I’m referring to, not all Ivy grads in the aggregate); based on my anecdotal small sample, I hypothesize that we give the Ivy schools too much credit. There’s something about the name that helps instill the legacy; of course, we can’t discount the Ivy League schools’ wonderful heritage and lasting history. That said, the schools proposed here for a magnolia league are all equally excellent universities, and would all benefit from a shared brand which elevates their status as elite private schools. Frankly, I’d love to see it happen in reality. Especially because, as a Rice alumnus, I have vested interest in seeing them finally join a conference that would benefits their reputation. Because despite academics’ protests, the NCAA conference a university is in has affect on the school’s perceived value, and Rice has struggled to find their brand in this context since the demise of the Southwest Conference.
Considering how Hayden fry was the AD and head coach for SMU starting in 1964(and was the coach since 62)..I think they still push for integration at the same time, because he was the one who brought levias to the program anyway in 65
Wofford, Furman, Presbyterian, Samford, Stetson, Gardner Webb, Mercer, Suwaneen, High Point, Liberty, as another one all the big southern relgious schools
I can tell you North Texas wouldn't be considered. SMU would block that. I saw an article a few weeks ago that SMU wanted to leave for the ACC so badly because they didn't want to share a conference with North Texas.
You wrote such a good script for this video that I thought you might like to know that at 0:46 "penultimate" probably isn't the word you want. Penultimate means "second to last".
Completely forgot about that in my rewrite. Where I come from, it has the two meanings-what Webster identifies as the correct meaning, and then the "slang" (it sounds bad, but that's kind of how it is) where it means a sort of apex of something. I keep using it in writing as the way I learned it as a kid when it's really something else for 98% of the English speaking world.
I came up with a similar idea back in the 80s, but called it the Student Athletic Conference. It brought together the private schools across the South, from TCU, SMU, Baylor and Rice in Texas and Tulsa, Tulane, Vanderbilt and Duke.
Current Emory student here and yes, the large Coca-Cola endowment was gifted by Asa Candler to Emory in 1915 (his brother was president) with the requirement that it not be used for a football team. If Emory wanted to join a Magnolia Conference in 1963, I could see it joining as a non-football member. If it decided to found a football program, it'd have a similar trajectory to Vandy
I don’t see us have an ACC conference today if the magnolia league formed assuming GT, Wake, and Duke all join. I also don’t think we ever get a big 12 conference cause I can easily see Baylor and TCU joining if SMU, and Rice leave and at that time Texas Tech was still on its own I believe.
a) The ACC had already been founded with an academic focus, so I doubt any member would leave. b) Why wouldn't WAKE/DUKE just be replaced? c) BAYLOR and TCU are too far away and don't appear to have the academics.
An outside possibility, since we are talking of hypotheticals, would be Mississippi State. Certainly they weren't up to the standards initially, in 1963; however, the mid-60s brought a renewed focus on academics at MSU. They were desegregated in 1965 and began an honors program in 1968. This is excellent stuff, by the way...well-researched and engaging.
@@jdeang3531 MISS-ST isn't a public school? My reference for overall sports and academics is the graph found at the ~12-minute mark in the vide titled below, which uses a blend of different metrics. Per that graph, MISS-ST is the worst academic P5 member: "Big 12 Expansion Stats and Facts Breakdown | Conference Realignment | Tony Altimore x 365 Sports"
I love Lucas's take on the Magnolia Conference. I think if it had been formed and was successful, things in the world of college sports would have been very interesting...and perhaps even better than the current and often cacophonous world it is today. It would have been a struggle in the beginning, to be sure, but I think the Magnolia Conference could've been hugely successful and prosperous. And North Carolina (at Chapel Hill) and Virginia would've been great fits since they were -- and still are -- highly regarded academic institutions. The University of Virginia was, if I'm not mistaken, founded by Thomas Jefferson. And here's something else: Lucas talks about the Butterfly Effect in this video. If the Magnolia Conference exists, maybe there's no need for conference realignment and super-conferences. That means the Magnolia, Big 8, Big East, Southwest and Pac-10 Conferences are all still alive and peacefully co-exist with the ACC, SEC and Big 10. Who knows...
There are some other Rice University sized programs that might step up and fit a Magnolia Conference, like an Elon University and Mercer. Would fit well with Navy at least with a service academy tie-in. Thought provoking video.
I think in the 60's the laegue could have the potential to start with 12 if they could convince the academies and ND to join. The 60's is when the ND/B1G dynamic switched from ND trying to get in to the B1G sending invites so maybe another academic conference could pull a scorned ND. The academies just make sense for an academically focused conference plus the largest recruiting pool for the military is in the south. Edit: They would also have the potential to be the 1st national conference if they were able to make those additions because AF would be in a bridge state to potentially reach out for USC and Stanford.
Doubtful, at least as far as the service academies go. There was a proposal for a coast-to-coast superleague in the 1960s that would have included the service academies, but Pentagon officials shot down the idea. It wasn't until those officials left that USAFA was able to join the WAC in the 80s
@@craigrohn9938 I get what you're saying about AF, but you're not considering if there were a prestigious academic power that was wanting to add them. Army and Navy had both been in and out of conferences by the 60's so they could potentially add the 2 of them.
Another great video, I love what if conference videos and if I assume correctly this is your secret series you've been working on for awhile, right? I could see GT being the earliest dominant power in the conference with the Miami and SMU(with less Death Penalties) following in close pursuit in 80's-early 00's with small short surges from Vanderbilt and Tulane and a small sprinkle from Duke and Rice a season or two. Duke would still keep its dynasty in basketball due to the kept alive relationship with Tobacco Road(mainly UNC and NC State) with maybe a more intense in conference rivalry with GT or Tulane? Butterfly effect section I can see the SWC living with an odd injection by going to Ten Teams. With New Mexico, Arizona, Arizona State and Memphis State(Could Slot Houston in here instead, I just consider Memphis to be a better pick due to the short spurt of good seasons they had and to keep Arkansas happy). If not I can see the Big 8 going to 10 with UT and TAMU with Arkansas forced to stitch the SWC alive with Bubblegum and bootstraps with Ark, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech, getting joined by Houston, Memphis State, New Mexico, Arizona and Arizona State. (Another 3 that could replace the Western 3 is Texas Western, Southern Miss and Louisiana Tech.)(P.S. if the Western 3 would of happened their replacements are Air Force, Colorado State, Utah State and Idaho.) And I could only dream of WVU and Pitt joining the ACC if Duke left. (The Gamecocks stay around aswell.) Then instead of FSU its Penn State in the 90's that's added.
a) Given that the concern was an academic association and that the ACC was/is a high academic conference already, I doubt DUKE joins this conference even under this liberal scenario. b) Assuming there would still be a push to get to 12 for a champ game, MIAMI and GATECH would have been poached by one of the majors. c) DUKE would not have likely built or maintained its dynasty without an annual home/away with UNC. d) WVU would still not have been "in brand" for the ACC.
I think you could possibly see this conference reach out to Baylor in the 80s when the next move of realignment began. I also think Navy could have been considered. Still I assume the league falls apart as the top half believes they can achieve greater success athletically in SEC or ACC. Bottom half falls to irrelevance. It would likely save Tulane from their falloff after exiting the SEC. Miami & GT would become powers and likely 1 of the Texas schools
My inclusions into the Magnolia League: Southern Methodist, Texas Christian, Tulsa, Rice, Baylor, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Sewanee, Georgia Tech, Emory, Centre, Washington & Lee, Transylvania, Miami, Duke, William & Mary, Wake Forest and Davidson. Yes, a super conference Magnolia League with 18 members with a mix of everything.
How many of these are Ivy level or close enough? How many are in the Southeast proper? My reference is the Altimore graph, so at a glance and including public schools: DUKE VANDY UNC MIAMI FLORIDA UVA WAKE GATECH TULANE After that it gets questionable. Most of your referenced schools wouldn't make the ACC historical Top 100 requirement. Wouldn't some Magnolia threshold be even higher?
I understand that Football pays the bills but as a college baseball fan I’d hate to see Vandy leave the SEC because that’s by far the best conference and Vandy historically has been the Alabama of c baseball
I think they could have formed a North division - School like U of Chicago, Washington of St. Louis, St Thomas, Couple of New York and Pennsylvania schools. Could have reached as far as MIT. As a MIami grad, glad for the video
And then there is Centre College in Kentucky - The Praying Colonels - who knocked off then top ranked Harvard in 1920. Alas, they are, I believe Div. II or III at present ? 🏉
One slight correction on basketball in 1964 had this league come to fruition. Vanderbilt was a top 10 team for much of the next 5 years, going 106-25 between 1964 and 1968. They owned a 2-1 advantage over Duke, including beating them in 1964, and they owned a 2-1 advantage over North Carolina in that time, including clobbering them in 1968. They also owned a 2-1 advantage over Davidson, with the two wins coming in 1968, when Davidson missed the Final Four by losing by 2 to UNC. Only UCLA had a better composite record than Vanderbilt between 1964 and 1968. And, the incoming recruiting class of 1968 was rated number one overall, even if it eventually didn't pan out. Ironically, former Big Ten commissioner Delaney now lives within walking distance of Vanderbilt, and his mansion sits on property that once was the gymnasium for Baptist Bible College.
When the ACC inevitably breaks apart, I wouldn’t be surprised to see this actually happen. This time around, rather than falling behind in scholarships, these schools will unite in falling behind on NIL money.
This is gonna sound crazy, but I prefer having had the death penalty and everything after that to being in this as an SMU fan. The main reason I think this conference would suck for SMU is that we’d lose our classic rivalries a couple decades early and, if we did decide to not pay players, we would have lost the ambition we had to compete for titles. Academics was already trending away from SMU as a school as it became more important to do research, because SMU cared more about business and law. I don’t think the magnolia conference survives in that iteration as whoever dominates it would want more tv money than can be provided by it.
I think this could have been more acceptable to SMU if they could persuade the Magnolia to take TCU and maybe Baylor as well. That would preserve several of their SWC rivalries.
It’s funny bc as a Villanova alum I hate the way the fcs is going. I was thinking how awesome it would be to make an Acc territory version of academic fbs school. Wake, nova, bc, Delaware, umass, UConn, maybe jmu maybe old yankee conf teams like (umass, nova, Delaware, UConn, we’re in that) like uri, unh, Maine etc, if they also are as upset with the modern CAA/fcs. This would be a decently competitive group of five conference and make sense geographically. All of the teams are well funded enough right now or are the states flagship school and could increase if needed.
I saw both of their elite 8 games with North Carolina, and they came super close both years. The 1969 team was probably better than UNC, but the close calls all went in the Tar Heels' favor.
What about Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, MD? It's technically South of the Mason-Dixon line and certainly has the academic standing on par with the Ivies...
JHU doesn't field Division I athletic teams. IIRC, they're part of an athletics conference with Emory, Chicago, WUSTL, Carnegie Mellon, NYU, Case Western, etc. All academic powerhouses that have avoided big-college athletics.
@@tarheel7406 JHU does have an waiver to play DI Lacrosse, much like Dallas Baptist (DII) has one for baseball. The kicker is basketball. If you're going to play DI basketball, you have to be DI across the board.
@@robertfarley7707 Again, I suspect JH followed MD to the B1G, which allows associate membership. The ACC apparently does not. Nevertheless and again, did JH have Div1 1 sports at the time this Magnolia League would have been formed?
The Auburn - GaTech rivalry was an excellent one. Engineering schools, mutual respect, students attending the other school for grad school, etc., etc. The Ala - Tech “rivalry” you mentioned was nasty with Ala constantly bullying Tech. If you look deeper into Auburn’s history, they would have been as excellent fit for a Magnolia League. Auburn was losing interest in football in deference to rapidly improving academics before the state legislature stepped in and demanded the Auburn - Alabama game be resumed. Most legislators, of course, were Ala grads. Auburn was woefully under-funded by the legislature (compared to Bama) and felt it was their best opportunity to curry funding favor. Anyway, Auburn would be an excellent candidate. And it would allow their academics to flourish.
@@tarheel7406 Having degrees from Auburn and an Ivy, and now teaching at a university, if you rely on some graph or subjective assessment it is essentially meaningless within, I’d argue, at least one standard deviation. And that covers 68% of schools being analyzed. The Ivy League schools have only two things others do not: a greater number of high performing students (which is not smarter students), and a lot of grant funding for research. The greatest value for a Magnolia League, in my view, would be to have athletics returned to amateur status being played by actual college students, and all the benefits derived from that. There are other benefits but I think this is supposed to be a fairly brief forum.
@@elmoreglidingclub3030 a) I have no reason to believe that the metrics used for that graph are overly biased. Surely more objective than your personal experiences, and a blend washes out a lot. b) Sometimes smaller difference are material in a smaller pool. c) I am fully aware that education, intelligence and wisdom are different things. d) If a then goal of a Magnolia League was to deemphasize sports, that would likely remove some of the proposed members. e) Isn't AUBURN a public school, making it a bad fit anyway? The referenced graph can be found at the ~12-minute mark in the vid titled: "Big 12 Expansion Stats and Facts Breakdown | Conference Realignment | Tony Altimore x 365 Sports"
@@elmoreglidingclub3030 This story has made me much more aware of how schools and conferences place amongst their peers in academics and overall athletics. I would have guessed that the PAC was the top academic conference of the P5 measured by rank/standing, but it was a clear #3 going into this realignment. Per Wiki, CORNELL is a private land-grant research university.
My hypothetical alternate history take is that if these schools were so smart (and I’m a fan of one of them), they would have integrated their student bodies and athletic team rosters much earlier, no later than after WWII, and well before the flagship southern state schools, and likely would have stayed competitive for longer provided the non-integrated schools would have been willing to play them.
Stanford and Notre Dame are working on it lol. Won't be called that but what they are going for seems awfully close to this concept. If you take FSU and Clemson out of the ACC and replace them with Tulane and Rice that seems very Mangolian to me.
@@tarheel7406 UVA is a public ivy with a T14 law school they fit the profile perfect. UNC maybe not. Also not saying every school would be elite academically but ACC is increasingly going to be known as the bad football conference with the prestifious universitys.
@@commodorezero a) UNC is also an original public and is now often ranked higher than UVA. b) UVA is also likely UNC's designated +1 when UNC leaves for either the SEC or B1G. c) UNC objected to the +3 expansion is now a near certainty to leave, which also means UVA. d) The ACC is likely to survive as a peer Tier 2 conference with the new BIG12.
@@tarheel7406 The ACC without FSU and Clemson hasn't had a football team finish in the top 6 since at least the 1980s. They were bad regardless. Also ok UNC is an elite public school you were the one who brought them up as not being that. I was under the impression UNCs +1 is ether NCS or they won't have one and will move alone. I'd think UVA would go with VT. But the Virginia schools voted for the 3 new schools suggesting they aren't planning on leaving.
@@commodorezero "The ACC without FSU and Clemson hasn't had a football team finish in the top 6 since at least the 1980s" This is clearly incorrect: Football Playoff Appearances, 1st Rd Wins, Nattys (per Wiki 2015-2023) ACC: 8-4-2 (Includes 1 of 2 ND appearances) B12: 2-1-0 (Excludes OK; includes Cincy) B1G: 10-3-1 (Includes Oregon & Washington) PAC: 0-0-0 (Excludes Oregon & Washington) SEC: 14-10-6 (Includes OK) BCS Runner Ups - Champs (2000 - 2014) ACC: 4-3 (Includes VATECH, MIAMI, ND) B12: 0-0 (Excludes NEB, OK, TX) B1G: 5-2 (Includes NEB, USC, ORE) PAC: 0-0 (Excludes USC, ORE) SEC: 6-10 (Includes OK, TEX) "Also ok UNC is an elite public school you were the one who brought them up as not being that." No, I simply stated in my original response that the future ACC will likely be without UVA, UNC, CLEMSON & FSU. It was you who went off on a tangent. "I was under the impression UNCs +1 is ether NCS or they won't have one and will move alone." Why? NCSTATE is "only" UNC's main football rival. DUKE is the main in basketball, and UVA is the overall main rival. Moreover, the B1G is unlikely to take NCSTATE, and the SEC is unlikely to take both. "I'd think UVA would go with VT." Why? UVA is effectively an ACC founder and VATECH was added recently. Moreover, UVA was forced to vote for VATECH." "But the Virginia schools voted for the 3 new schools suggesting they aren't planning on leaving." I suspect that UVA was again forced to vote to protect VATECH's interests, but I would acknowledge that's uncertain.
There are currently 18 private FBS schools... WEST: Baylor Brigham Young (BYU) Rice Southern Cal (USC) Southern Methodist (SMU) Stanford Texas Christian (TCU) Tulane Tulsa EAST: Boston College (BC) Duke Liberty Miami Notre Dame Northwestern Syracuse Vanderbilt Wake Forest ... If they formed a conf, it could be called the Big Ivy, and it would instantly become an autonomous conference.
Of those 18, only USC, Stanford, and ND carried .700 OAW (accumulative) records both pre war and post war, vs majority public D1A completion scheduling Stanford has since dropped below .700 by the 1950s and now below 600; USC has dropped very slightly below .700 as recently as the late 2010's ND is still a .700 team, but their days could be numbered with current realignment. Here are the other .700 teams: TEXAS, Oklahoma, Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, Boise State* * majority schedule less than power majority opponents
I think the ACC is the closest we’ll get to a non Ivy League conference that has high academic values. Some really smart schools like ND, UVA, UNC, FSU, UMiami, Duke and now the addition of Stanford, SMU, and UC Berkeley.
Good and interesting video. Quite frankly, this whole conference realignment of late has gotten ridiculous. I’m in more favor of D1 football and basketball programs to form semi-pro leagues outside of the NCAA while keeping the brands of their colleges and let all the other sports return to their more traditional/regional conferences. What’s happening now (despite it being about $$$) makes very little sense.
I think it’s important to ask why the Ivy League had such a hold on the football world and why it no longer has that hold. To know what happens to a magnolia conference with bigger brands.
Weird thing is this might be a possible outcome if the ACC folds. Three thing might happen if the ACC get raided. ACC survives, a possible Big East Resurgence or the Southern Ivy comes into Existence, depend on which teams leave. Acc Mangolia League. East Duke Georgia Tech USF* Vanderbilt* (SEC going to run out of Slots) Wake Forest West Cal Rice* SMU Stanford Tulane* Others that might be members Boston College Syracuse Temple Washington St Oregon St Tulsa Notre Dame (Full time except football, with 6 football games against the league a year)
That would be a heavy ACC depletion out to the SEC/B1G, which would mean a closed Tier 1 playoff, which would mean ND would have to join one of the then P2s. Not sure about TEMPLE or TULSA, but neither WASHST nor OREST would fit the academic brand.
What I would think would happen is: -FSU joins the SEC instead of the ACC -The SWC adds Houston a couple of years earlier or adds another team like UTEP -WVU joins the ACC -The Big East doesn’t sponsor Football
"FSU joins the SEC instead of the ACC" I would guess that ACC still adds MIAMI and 1 more or 1 less BIGEAST school. FSU does not win as much and doesn't make the same degree of academic improvement. UVA, UNC, DUKE and/or GATECH more likely to leave than was the case in actual timeline. "WVU joins the ACC" When?
One school that probably would have joined or tried to at least would be UAB. UA has always tried to keep their football program down (Seen in shutting down the program in 2014-15 and never playing UAB even as a non-con opponent during Alabama's up and down 90's under Stalings and DuBose.) so I don't see much objection from the BoT to keep UAB a 1-AA program and even if the magnolia went down from division 1-A to 1-AA or D2 that would fit in as UAB didn't move to D1 until 1996 as an independent. And if the conference did move down due media rights and such in the 90's UAB would fit right in as they started football as D3 in the '91 and '92 seasons before moving up to 1-AA in '93 until '95 when they were approved by the NCAA to move to 1-A. Through all that time they were D3 and 1-AA independents and wouldn't move to a conference until C-USA in '99 where as the Magnolia might have taken them in earlier as a 1-AA Medical research school.
pe·nul·ti·mate
/pəˈnəltəmət/
adjective
last but one in a series of things; second last.
ex. "the penultimate chapter of the book"
...would now be a good or a bad time to note that I have an English degree? 😂
When EA brings the game back out, I’m shuffling some conferences and making a Magnolia League to see what happens. I’m gonna add Georgia Tech and UAB to it. I hope they have FCS so I can grab the other nerd schools
It will not have FCS at the start but they may add a add on pack or something at some point
I want to be able to create a program. That’s what I’d be doing
@@worldsgreatestdude1784 same. the offline stuff was really what people played for.
Why UAB tho?
I'd create Emory and add them.
If Vandy and Tulane could've gotten Tech on board, that could've given their pitch a whole lot more weight
Hey guys! Sorry if my voice seems kind of off in this video---I've been battling allergies all month and it finally caught up to me this week. This is potentially the first video in a series of essays on potential bombshell moves in college football history. Of course, the whole point of "what-if" essays like this is to pose a question and theorize on outcomes, but given that it didn't happen, it's almost an empty video in that sense. I'd like to know if this topic of video is something you guys are interested in! There are plenty more video concepts to go from here!
You’re good, get better soon
All good keep up the amazing uploads and me learning so much of the history of conferences.
All good dude. Been looking for a channel like this for years and when I found it a couple of months ago I watched about 6 videos in a row! Keep up the great content.
Hope you get better soon
Feel better. Very interesting content. And I think your idea is on the right track. College football history isn't something a lot of youtubers are doing. Given CFBs structure there's more "could have been" champs than any other sport.
Well thought out. Thank you to my friend Robert for sending me this link.
I was a historian writer in the past and wrote a piece about this, and I have read and watched a lot of media covering this. Your video is right at the top.
Up until the end of 2018, I followed Vanderbilt athletics, before totally divorcing myself from being a follower. I had a lot of inside sources with the school and studied at length the almost move to leave the SEC for a Southern Ivy. SMU was the biggest holdout, as their big money boosters were 100% against this.
Vanderbilt looked into leaving the SEC again in the late 1990s. Then Chancellor Joe B. Wyatt commissioned a "Committee on Intercollegiate Athletics." At the time, the athletics department had an annual 4 million dollar deficit, and the school had received a PR black eye for failing to admit basketball star Ron Mercer.
The Committee looked at something like 7 different issues, and one of them was whether to remain in the SEC, or to consider another situation. All possibilities were researched--remain in the SEC, try to move to another conference such as the ACC or Big Ten, dropping to what was then I-AA, or dropping to Division 3.
In the end, there were only two choices that were financially sound and stable. The two choices were either remaining in the SEC and acknowledging that the playing field would remain terribly tilted against the school, or dropping scholarship athletics and going to Division 3. The panel was divided on this issue, as it was 50-50, with half believing that the school needed to align itself with other great academic institutions such as Washington U, New York U, and the U. of Chicago.
Those other schools were members in what was then called the "Nerdy Nine" conference, and after Johns Hopkins left, it was known as the "Egghead Eight" conference. The real name is the University Athletic Association. That is where Vanderbilt athletics needs to go, and the football program should probably be discontinued, with the real estate involved re-used to boost the academic standing.
I haven't been to a Vanderbilt football game since 2015 nor a basketball game since 2018. I used to be so involved with the program that players and their parents contacted me for advice. Today, I cannot name one player on the football or basketball team, and a large majority of sports fans living in this area have come to the same realization, that Vanderbilt is merely a sports prostitute in the SEC. They receive a lot of money to be screwed again and again by opponents that receive satisfaction for their payments. That's why the stadium is a home game for the opponent week after week. There are only a couple thousand Vanderbilt fans remaining, or about the same amount as there are at NYU, Washington U, and the U of Chicago.
FWIW, old people like me are turning away from all sports because they have all been diluted. We are big into tabletop sports strategy games, especially with teams from prior to 1970.
One small correction: You referred to the 1964 Magnolia League possibly having a bowl tie-in like the Peach or Citrus. Neither existed in 1964. There were just 8 Major College bowl games then: Rose, Cotton, Sugar, Orange, Gator, Sun, Liberty, and Bluebonnet. And, the Liberty Bowl was not yet in Memphis; it was played indoors at the Atlantic City Convention Hall. There would have been no bowl tie-ins for such a conference.
a) Apparently the IVY reconsidered its athletic situation in the early 80s and reached out to schools like DUKE & VANDY. Assuming true, VANDY changed its position after ~15 years?
b) When FSU joined, the ACC paid the most of any conference, but the gap wasn't as wide as today. That expansion and those that followed were driven by the "football schools", so I doubt the ACC was a likely option for VANDY. The B1G was then unlikely to take a relatively vanilla private school. Deferring on the rest, VANDY would have had 2 options that were feasible, financially sound, and stable (whatever that means in context).
Vandy has a good baseball program.
@@richardalvarado-ik9br yes, and it operates at a sizeable loss. The football program has to make the money for the baseball program to exist. That's important only to keep operating a division 1 program. At D3, it would not be an issue.
@@tarheel7406 The Big Ten was so interested in Vanderbilt in 2010-11 that Jim Delaney sent third parties to meet with third parties connected to Vanderbilt at a location near either O'Hare or Midway airport in Chicago (never could pin the location down).
The great attraction Vanderbilt had that the Big Ten wanted was their political influence to add to the federal funds allocated to research institutes. At the time, these federal funds dwarfed the revenue generation of athletics. The Big Ten schools are major research powers, and adding Vanderbilt, and its vast research to the league would have been like adding Notre Dame, Alabama, LSU, and Georgia football with Kentucky basketball.
I believe the total R & D funds going to university research is now approaching $100 billion per year! Football cannot compete with this--yet.
FWIW, Vanderbilt had begun exploring the process of leaving the SEC for the Big Ten, when a sports reporter for the Des Moines Register got the scoop and reported it. The former Indiana football coach then corroborated the story, and Vanderbilt had to deny quickly. If not for that leak, Vanderbilt would have most likely moved to the Big Ten, and Georgia Tech might have joined them.
If you had gone with a point-of-divergence in the 40s, you could have added Washington University in St. Louis as they went from offering athletic scholarships to none around that time. A slight change could have had them keep them if they were in an athletic conference that was academic oriented like the Magnolia Conference.
Great video. Looking forward to see any new what if videos you might decide to produce.
interesting fact is that William and Mary is one of the few pre-revolutionary schools and is older than a couple of the Ivy’s which kinda adds to their inclusion here
William & Mary is older than all of the Ivy's except Harvard. It's the second oldest college in the United States.
Oldest private schools. The oldest public schools are uga and unc
William and Mary is the oldest public university in the country.
@@voiceofreason2674William and Mary is a public school
@@nathanbrewer6781 wow ur right William and Mary also claims title of oldest public university and it still operates within a public model that's admirable
As a Canadian, I’ve never had much of a gateway to college football. Your videos have helped me get legitimately into this sport and I can’t thank you enough for that. Keep up the great work!
Sincerely, a newfound Washington fan
BEAT OREGON!
Sincerely, an LSU fan who needs Oregon to fkn LOSE.
It’s a great sport though. I live for college football. Every aspect is excellent. Recruiting is amazing, it’s the sport behind the sport.
If Texas and TAMU would’ve left, I definitely see a Magnolia League add Baylor and TCU from SWC just to keep consistency.
Honestly, I think the end compromise here is probably the Big 8/Big 12 forming earlier by grabbing those schools
Yeah i thought Baylor would come up there for sure
The Magnolia Conference would basically be a second Big 10 rather than a second Ivy League, unless they agreed to stop giving scholarships like the Ivies it's unlikely they'd just stop expanding and inviting new members. Either they
- Stick to 8 and separate from other non division schools, maybe only playing the Ivies and working with them for scheduling (which would probably make them scorned in the south)
- Expand and try to stay afloat, leading to a much weaker ACC/SEC as it'd basically act like a southern Big 10
You present an interesting idea with that first scenario. If they separate from the wider collegiate sports world, only playing the preexisting Ivies, then the Magnolia could've led to something much bigger.
If that is what ended up happening, then it very well could've set a precedent for other academics-based schools in other regions, like the West Coast and Midwest. If Ivy-likes ended up forming in those regions, only playing each other and the Ivy & Magnolia, then we potentially could've seen a breakaway collegiate athletics association completely separate from the NCAA & NAIA, one that's inherently focused on academics first.
If my theory is feasible, I think that would've been extremely interesting, and it may have had a chance at balancing out the talent levels between them and the other two associations, even if it didn't offer scholarships. Alas, I guess we'll never know.
Absolutely! This is something I didn't even think about. This could have really disrupted college sports as we know it
Disagree. The B1G then as now is primarily large (if not uber) flagships with good but not elite academic standing, the opposite of a mostly private, more academic elite membership. This alternate history Magnolia Conference has a single public school (GATECH), which is a #2.
William and Mary is public.@@tarheel7406
@@Greypollo Then William & Mary would be a bad fit. It certainly is not a flagship, much less an uber-flagship.
Another great vid! Three more ideas:
1.) What if the Metro Conference stayed together (and sponsored football)?
2.) The history and future of the MEAC.
3.) the Great Midwest Conference-the important yet incredibly short-lived mid-major.
You are putting out fantastic content at an amazing pace lately. Thank you so much!
I think the Magnolia League would have gone to I-AA due to its small size and varying interest in sports
same. besides vandy and later Miami none of these teams are any good. if SMU got added the quality of play would definitely improve, but they would still be dragging the smaller schools behind them.
@@theEWDSDS TBF, most of these teams were pretty great during the mid 70's-80's... Granted maybe its different with this conference but its food for thought, Bar Davidson
@@VastContent maybe fair in quality, but not amazing. SMU was good at football through cheats, Duke is... Duke, and Tulane does Tulane things but besides MAYBE basketball there isn't a sport that they are all even decent at.
Does Duke even have a football team?
@@theEWDSDS I don't disagree with you at all, I really think at max positivity it would end up being like a Big East but its fun to think of the possibilities
Exploring what you mentioned about a SWC collapse earlier and a UT-A&M switch to the SEC then- this could have opened the door for Baylor to join the Magnolia league, considering Baylor is a private college with a pretty good academic rap sheet, as well as them opening up the door for a rivalry with SMU.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Of course, this is also implying that the Big 12 doesn’t swoop them up first.
Edit: Maybe also a TCU join, to save them from their G5 hell they went through before they joined the Big 12??
Baylor definitely has a rap sheet. They commit felonies on and off the field. True Crime should be a major at Baylor.
As a big conference realignment enthusiast, glad you came across my blog and incorporated some of my ideas into this video! Miami dominating the Magnolia would’ve been a sight to see!
UNC and UVA would have been interested in joining too. They are very well regarded academically nationally (top 30 US news) and would have wanted the prestige of being in such a league. They probably both are in and W&M is never admitted. Thus it begins its life as nine team league.
Doubtful. The ACC was then already an academics also conference. Travel was more of a concern then as well.
Would they be willing to ditch NC State?
Agree with UVa. At that point in the schools history through today they choose to hamstring their recruiting capabilities due to academic standards, transfer requirements, limited investments in athletics and their honor code. The heads of the board are still heavily focused on Olympic sports and are totally comfortable with the football program being in a shambles. They've held off investing in football for decades and only recently slightly loosened the purse strings for middle of the road facility upgrades compared to others. With no TV money in play back in the day. They very well could have been recruited to this conference. If we look at current day trends the ACC is more likely to offer Tulane and Rice a place in the conference, and maybe consider Connecticut and the Service academies.
@@scottbourret1190 The then ACC (as it would be now) was likely a higher academic association than any feasible Magnolia League. Also, having public school members risks government interference on conference affairs. Finally, UVA & UNC have many ties going back to their similar founding.
With Miami, UVA and North Carolina gone, does the Big East eat the ACC instead of the other way around?
You’ve genuinely become my favorite TH-camr
Dalukes I think it would be cool if you made a video on Tulanes fall from a national powerhouse in academics and athletics, to almost moving down to D3, to where they are now
The demolition of Tulane stadium was a tragedy.
What a gem of a channel, I have doing a ton of research around school conferences. Didnt even know a channel for this specific interest existed lol.
Vandy Boy here, we like the fact that we raise the GPA in the SEC. It gives us great revenue in football and we put the money into other sports. I.E. Baseball and womens sports
But not softball for some reason, so there are no Vandy Girls.
@@toughbutsweet1there arent many girls at vandy at all. Its a great place to send a kinda plain daughter. She will fetch that mrs degree real easy
Haha.@@voiceofreason2674
Emory is DIII for obvious reasons. They, like most mentioned are members of the prestigious AAU, which means they are highly respected research institutions. They are unlikely candidates to this project since getting fans in Atlanta to support two schools and their beloved Georgia Bulldogs are slim. Great article. Thanks!
The Goat back at it again with more conference history lessons:)
I agree with some of the comments that adding Army, Navy and Wake Forest would have been great for the Mag. It would create established rivalries and travel partners. I don't think Penn State would be interested in the ACC because Joe Pa wanted an all-East conference with Syracuse, Boston College, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, Army and Navy.
The all-East was dead by the time PSU joined a conference.
Penn State is never leaving the $ but they are at least competitive in their conference. Rutgers and Maryland though are going to be doormats. Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College plus
West Virginia, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Louisville would make a regional conference of eastern schools of similar strength. Their athletes wouldn't have to fly across the country for conference games to play Stanford and Cal.
@@slimphotog PSU should have joined the ACC if that would have yielded a new peer media deal.
This is an interesting thought experiment. I feel like this conference's arc would have paralleled something like the Metro Conference from the 70s. The initial thing that bound these schools together would have eventually become less important than other factors. The bigger schools get picked off, smaller schools in-fill, and the conference is gone by the late 80s.
As a Rice alumnus, I’m loving this idea. The Ivy League commands a lot of respect - it’s such marketable branding, and has become synonymous with elitism. They are great schools, don’t get me wrong, but I’ve also fired Ivy League grads before because they were arrogant, ignorant, and didn’t work hard (the individuals I’m referring to, not all Ivy grads in the aggregate); based on my anecdotal small sample, I hypothesize that we give the Ivy schools too much credit. There’s something about the name that helps instill the legacy; of course, we can’t discount the Ivy League schools’ wonderful heritage and lasting history. That said, the schools proposed here for a magnolia league are all equally excellent universities, and would all benefit from a shared brand which elevates their status as elite private schools. Frankly, I’d love to see it happen in reality. Especially because, as a Rice alumnus, I have vested interest in seeing them finally join a conference that would benefits their reputation. Because despite academics’ protests, the NCAA conference a university is in has affect on the school’s perceived value, and Rice has struggled to find their brand in this context since the demise of the Southwest Conference.
This was an interesting watch, I've never heard of the Magnolia Conference until now
Considering how Hayden fry was the AD and head coach for SMU starting in 1964(and was the coach since 62)..I think they still push for integration at the same time, because he was the one who brought levias to the program anyway in 65
Wofford, Furman, Presbyterian, Samford, Stetson, Gardner Webb, Mercer, Suwaneen, High Point, Liberty, as another one all the big southern relgious schools
I can tell you North Texas wouldn't be considered. SMU would block that. I saw an article a few weeks ago that SMU wanted to leave for the ACC so badly because they didn't want to share a conference with North Texas.
You wrote such a good script for this video that I thought you might like to know that at 0:46 "penultimate" probably isn't the word you want. Penultimate means "second to last".
Completely forgot about that in my rewrite. Where I come from, it has the two meanings-what Webster identifies as the correct meaning, and then the "slang" (it sounds bad, but that's kind of how it is) where it means a sort of apex of something. I keep using it in writing as the way I learned it as a kid when it's really something else for 98% of the English speaking world.
I came up with a similar idea back in the 80s, but called it the Student Athletic Conference. It brought together the private schools across the South, from TCU, SMU, Baylor and Rice in Texas and Tulsa, Tulane, Vanderbilt and Duke.
I don't know if it's true, but the campus lore at Emory is that the terms of their endowment prohibited them from ever having a varsity football team.
Current Emory student here and yes, the large Coca-Cola endowment was gifted by Asa Candler to Emory in 1915 (his brother was president) with the requirement that it not be used for a football team. If Emory wanted to join a Magnolia Conference in 1963, I could see it joining as a non-football member. If it decided to found a football program, it'd have a similar trajectory to Vandy
At 10:57 you have the logo of the University of Delaware, which is not in VA
I don’t see us have an ACC conference today if the magnolia league formed assuming GT, Wake, and Duke all join. I also don’t think we ever get a big 12 conference cause I can easily see Baylor and TCU joining if SMU, and Rice leave and at that time Texas Tech was still on its own I believe.
a) The ACC had already been founded with an academic focus, so I doubt any member would leave.
b) Why wouldn't WAKE/DUKE just be replaced?
c) BAYLOR and TCU are too far away and don't appear to have the academics.
An outside possibility, since we are talking of hypotheticals, would be Mississippi State. Certainly they weren't up to the standards initially, in 1963; however, the mid-60s brought a renewed focus on academics at MSU. They were desegregated in 1965 and began an honors program in 1968.
This is excellent stuff, by the way...well-researched and engaging.
Public and not even up to academic standard today.
@@tarheel7406I disagree. Have you looked at their academic standings over the last 10-15 years?
@@jdeang3531 MISS-ST isn't a public school? My reference for overall sports and academics is the graph found at the ~12-minute mark in the vide titled below, which uses a blend of different metrics. Per that graph, MISS-ST is the worst academic P5 member:
"Big 12 Expansion Stats and Facts Breakdown | Conference Realignment | Tony Altimore x 365 Sports"
@@tarheel7406 Yeah, missed that about the public standing. As I said, I was a long shot, and quite hypothetical.
Would love to see a video on the big 10 or the MWC/WAC history
I love Lucas's take on the Magnolia Conference. I think if it had been formed and was successful, things in the world of college sports would have been very interesting...and perhaps even better than the current and often cacophonous world it is today. It would have been a struggle in the beginning, to be sure, but I think the Magnolia Conference could've been hugely successful and prosperous. And North Carolina (at Chapel Hill) and Virginia would've been great fits since they were -- and still are -- highly regarded academic institutions. The University of Virginia was, if I'm not mistaken, founded by Thomas Jefferson.
And here's something else: Lucas talks about the Butterfly Effect in this video. If the Magnolia Conference exists, maybe there's no need for conference realignment and super-conferences. That means the Magnolia, Big 8, Big East, Southwest and Pac-10 Conferences are all still alive and peacefully co-exist with the ACC, SEC and Big 10. Who knows...
Public schools don't really fit the concept. Since the ACC would have already had peer or better "Magnolia" academics, why would any member leave?
There are some other Rice University sized programs that might step up and fit a Magnolia Conference, like an Elon University and Mercer. Would fit well with Navy at least with a service academy tie-in. Thought provoking video.
Imagine being too good and putting your rep in danger
Great idea, or something like is needed! I still miss the old southwest conference! 🏈🤠🏈
In 1963, the University of Miami was one of the top _party_ schools in the nation.
I think in the 60's the laegue could have the potential to start with 12 if they could convince the academies and ND to join. The 60's is when the ND/B1G dynamic switched from ND trying to get in to the B1G sending invites so maybe another academic conference could pull a scorned ND. The academies just make sense for an academically focused conference plus the largest recruiting pool for the military is in the south.
Edit: They would also have the potential to be the 1st national conference if they were able to make those additions because AF would be in a bridge state to potentially reach out for USC and Stanford.
Doubtful, at least as far as the service academies go. There was a proposal for a coast-to-coast superleague in the 1960s that would have included the service academies, but Pentagon officials shot down the idea. It wasn't until those officials left that USAFA was able to join the WAC in the 80s
@@craigrohn9938 I get what you're saying about AF, but you're not considering if there were a prestigious academic power that was wanting to add them. Army and Navy had both been in and out of conferences by the 60's so they could potentially add the 2 of them.
dalukes uploaded, it's a good day
Had no idea this was an idea, fantastic video :)
I just gotta say that background music and perfect and completely fitting
Great video, as usual! Real question is will a national Magnolia Conference form in the remnant of the ACC in the 2030s.
Another great video, I love what if conference videos and if I assume correctly this is your secret series you've been working on for awhile, right?
I could see GT being the earliest dominant power in the conference with the Miami and SMU(with less Death Penalties) following in close pursuit in 80's-early 00's with small short surges from Vanderbilt and Tulane and a small sprinkle from Duke and Rice a season or two.
Duke would still keep its dynasty in basketball due to the kept alive relationship with Tobacco Road(mainly UNC and NC State) with maybe a more intense in conference rivalry with GT or Tulane?
Butterfly effect section
I can see the SWC living with an odd injection by going to Ten Teams. With New Mexico, Arizona, Arizona State and Memphis State(Could Slot Houston in here instead, I just consider Memphis to be a better pick due to the short spurt of good seasons they had and to keep Arkansas happy). If not I can see the Big 8 going to 10 with UT and TAMU with Arkansas forced to stitch the SWC alive with Bubblegum and bootstraps with Ark, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech, getting joined by Houston, Memphis State, New Mexico, Arizona and Arizona State. (Another 3 that could replace the Western 3 is Texas Western, Southern Miss and Louisiana Tech.)(P.S. if the Western 3 would of happened their replacements are Air Force, Colorado State, Utah State and Idaho.) And I could only dream of WVU and Pitt joining the ACC if Duke left. (The Gamecocks stay around aswell.) Then instead of FSU its Penn State in the 90's that's added.
a) Given that the concern was an academic association and that the ACC was/is a high academic conference already, I doubt DUKE joins this conference even under this liberal scenario.
b) Assuming there would still be a push to get to 12 for a champ game, MIAMI and GATECH would have been poached by one of the majors.
c) DUKE would not have likely built or maintained its dynasty without an annual home/away with UNC.
d) WVU would still not have been "in brand" for the ACC.
Is there any way, UNC Chapel hill leaves the ACC to join?
10:57 Just a note. Delaware is not in Virgina.
Yeah, they're in Delaware. But they're a longterm rival of William and Mary's, and I figured they belonged up there anyway.
I find it funny how the one time Vandy was good at football was the one time they didn't want to be good at football
This makes me wish to be able to make custom confrences in the new NCAA game
you can.
I think you could possibly see this conference reach out to Baylor in the 80s when the next move of realignment began. I also think Navy could have been considered. Still I assume the league falls apart as the top half believes they can achieve greater success athletically in SEC or ACC. Bottom half falls to irrelevance. It would likely save Tulane from their falloff after exiting the SEC. Miami & GT would become powers and likely 1 of the Texas schools
What about Sewanee ?
My inclusions into the Magnolia League: Southern Methodist, Texas Christian, Tulsa, Rice, Baylor, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Sewanee, Georgia Tech, Emory, Centre, Washington & Lee, Transylvania, Miami, Duke, William & Mary, Wake Forest and Davidson. Yes, a super conference Magnolia League with 18 members with a mix of everything.
How many of these are Ivy level or close enough? How many are in the Southeast proper? My reference is the Altimore graph, so at a glance and including public schools:
DUKE
VANDY
UNC
MIAMI
FLORIDA
UVA
WAKE
GATECH
TULANE
After that it gets questionable. Most of your referenced schools wouldn't make the ACC historical Top 100 requirement. Wouldn't some Magnolia threshold be even higher?
I understand that Football pays the bills but as a college baseball fan I’d hate to see Vandy leave the SEC because that’s by far the best conference and Vandy historically has been the Alabama of c baseball
Shellacked is pronounced [SHUH-lacked] not [shell-icked].
Great vid, per the usual.
Do a video on a public university Ivy League. How would that look?
I think what's really sad is that the comparison at 2:52 is still accurate today as it was back then. I
Will you ever do the history of the SEC & BIG10?
Yes sir, I'll put a vote up on Thanksgiving between the two and I'll do one for a long Christmas episode
I think they could have formed a North division - School like U of Chicago, Washington of St. Louis, St Thomas, Couple of New York and Pennsylvania schools.
Could have reached as far as MIT.
As a MIami grad, glad for the video
That big, that wide, that culturally diverse in the time frame at issue?
What is the background song you use in the video called?
Awesome video. I already know what im doing for my next NCAA 14 franchise.
And then there is Centre College in Kentucky - The Praying Colonels - who knocked off then top ranked Harvard in 1920. Alas, they are, I believe Div. II or III at present ? 🏉
Seems like a fun conference I have done something similar in ncaa maybe a school like navy would have liked the higher academics and joined
That old Duke logo was fire 🔥
Vandy needs to stay in the SEC so other members can pad their 100%, no/low stress guaranteed ‘W’ column each year.
One slight correction on basketball in 1964 had this league come to fruition. Vanderbilt was a top 10 team for much of the next 5 years, going 106-25 between 1964 and 1968. They owned a 2-1 advantage over Duke, including beating them in 1964, and they owned a 2-1 advantage over North Carolina in that time, including clobbering them in 1968. They also owned a 2-1 advantage over Davidson, with the two wins coming in 1968, when Davidson missed the Final Four by losing by 2 to UNC. Only UCLA had a better composite record than Vanderbilt between 1964 and 1968. And, the incoming recruiting class of 1968 was rated number one overall, even if it eventually didn't pan out.
Ironically, former Big Ten commissioner Delaney now lives within walking distance of Vanderbilt, and his mansion sits on property that once was the gymnasium for Baptist Bible College.
A private school can be a top competitor in basketball, and there has been room at the top of the SEC. Why hasn't VANDY filled that vacuum?
My Dook roommate said it should have been called the "Kudzu" League, we had a lot of that around.
I love the background music.
When the ACC inevitably breaks apart, I wouldn’t be surprised to see this actually happen. This time around, rather than falling behind in scholarships, these schools will unite in falling behind on NIL money.
Why will the ACC inevitably break apart?
Consider the following schools, Baylor, Wake Forest, Tulsa, TCU and, Georgia Tech.
This is gonna sound crazy, but I prefer having had the death penalty and everything after that to being in this as an SMU fan. The main reason I think this conference would suck for SMU is that we’d lose our classic rivalries a couple decades early and, if we did decide to not pay players, we would have lost the ambition we had to compete for titles. Academics was already trending away from SMU as a school as it became more important to do research, because SMU cared more about business and law. I don’t think the magnolia conference survives in that iteration as whoever dominates it would want more tv money than can be provided by it.
I think this could have been more acceptable to SMU if they could persuade the Magnolia to take TCU and maybe Baylor as well. That would preserve several of their SWC rivalries.
@@robertfarley7707 but would TCU and Baylor turn down cotton bowl money for an academic prestige conference
I know a guy that played football for SMU just prior to the death penalty and he can't read or write.
I made this conference in the game, but I used north and south divisions to incorporate everyone
New dalukes video means a new comment asking for a yankee conference breakdown. As always, great video
What about TCU and Baylor?
Is it a good day if you don't dabble in a bit of dalukes?
I'm a simple person. I see a new video,and I click
An NEC video would be cool btw
It’s funny bc as a Villanova alum I hate the way the fcs is going. I was thinking how awesome it would be to make an Acc territory version of academic fbs school. Wake, nova, bc, Delaware, umass, UConn, maybe jmu maybe old yankee conf teams like (umass, nova, Delaware, UConn, we’re in that) like uri, unh, Maine etc, if they also are as upset with the modern CAA/fcs. This would be a decently competitive group of five conference and make sense geographically. All of the teams are well funded enough right now or are the states flagship school and could increase if needed.
Davidson was a NATIONAL power in basketball in the 60’s with Lefty Drisell and then former Davidson star Terry Holland as head coaches.
I saw both of their elite 8 games with North Carolina, and they came super close both years. The 1969 team was probably better than UNC, but the close calls all went in the Tar Heels' favor.
What about Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, MD? It's technically South of the Mason-Dixon line and certainly has the academic standing on par with the Ivies...
JH seems to follow MARYLAND.
JHU doesn't field Division I athletic teams. IIRC, they're part of an athletics conference with Emory, Chicago, WUSTL, Carnegie Mellon, NYU, Case Western, etc. All academic powerhouses that have avoided big-college athletics.
@@kevindavis900 "Doesn't" or "didn't". JH does play Div 1 lacrosse in the B1G.
@@tarheel7406 JHU does have an waiver to play DI Lacrosse, much like Dallas Baptist (DII) has one for baseball. The kicker is basketball. If you're going to play DI basketball, you have to be DI across the board.
@@robertfarley7707 Again, I suspect JH followed MD to the B1G, which allows associate membership. The ACC apparently does not.
Nevertheless and again, did JH have Div1 1 sports at the time this Magnolia League would have been formed?
Why wouldn't this include GT?
The Auburn - GaTech rivalry was an excellent one. Engineering schools, mutual respect, students attending the other school for grad school, etc., etc. The Ala - Tech “rivalry” you mentioned was nasty with Ala constantly bullying Tech.
If you look deeper into Auburn’s history, they would have been as excellent fit for a Magnolia League. Auburn was losing interest in football in deference to rapidly improving academics before the state legislature stepped in and demanded the Auburn - Alabama game be resumed. Most legislators, of course, were Ala grads. Auburn was woefully under-funded by the legislature (compared to Bama) and felt it was their best opportunity to curry funding favor. Anyway, Auburn would be an excellent candidate. And it would allow their academics to flourish.
AUBURN isn't represented as an elite (or near) academic school on the Altimore Graph I reference. Has it declined since the time under discussion?
@@tarheel7406 Having degrees from Auburn and an Ivy, and now teaching at a university, if you rely on some graph or subjective assessment it is essentially meaningless within, I’d argue, at least one standard deviation. And that covers 68% of schools being analyzed. The Ivy League schools have only two things others do not: a greater number of high performing students (which is not smarter students), and a lot of grant funding for research. The greatest value for a Magnolia League, in my view, would be to have athletics returned to amateur status being played by actual college students, and all the benefits derived from that. There are other benefits but I think this is supposed to be a fairly brief forum.
@@elmoreglidingclub3030
a) I have no reason to believe that the metrics used for that graph are overly biased. Surely more objective than your personal experiences, and a blend washes out a lot.
b) Sometimes smaller difference are material in a smaller pool.
c) I am fully aware that education, intelligence and wisdom are different things.
d) If a then goal of a Magnolia League was to deemphasize sports, that would likely remove some of the proposed members.
e) Isn't AUBURN a public school, making it a bad fit anyway?
The referenced graph can be found at the ~12-minute mark in the vid titled:
"Big 12 Expansion Stats and Facts Breakdown | Conference Realignment | Tony Altimore x 365 Sports"
@@tarheel7406 Thank you for the graph reference; I’ll look it up. And Auburn is indeed a public university. As is Cornell.
@@elmoreglidingclub3030 This story has made me much more aware of how schools and conferences place amongst their peers in academics and overall athletics. I would have guessed that the PAC was the top academic conference of the P5 measured by rank/standing, but it was a clear #3 going into this realignment.
Per Wiki, CORNELL is a private land-grant research university.
The name and idea is awesome . The integration factor was interesting
My hypothetical alternate history take is that if these schools were so smart (and I’m a fan of one of them), they would have integrated their student bodies and athletic team rosters much earlier, no later than after WWII, and well before the flagship southern state schools, and likely would have stayed competitive for longer provided the non-integrated schools would have been willing to play them.
Stanford and Notre Dame are working on it lol. Won't be called that but what they are going for seems awfully close to this concept. If you take FSU and Clemson out of the ACC and replace them with Tulane and Rice that seems very Mangolian to me.
Would need to also take out UNC and likely UVA.
@@tarheel7406 UVA is a public ivy with a T14 law school they fit the profile perfect. UNC maybe not. Also not saying every school would be elite academically but ACC is increasingly going to be known as the bad football conference with the prestifious universitys.
@@commodorezero
a) UNC is also an original public and is now often ranked higher than UVA.
b) UVA is also likely UNC's designated +1 when UNC leaves for either the SEC or B1G.
c) UNC objected to the +3 expansion is now a near certainty to leave, which also means UVA.
d) The ACC is likely to survive as a peer Tier 2 conference with the new BIG12.
@@tarheel7406 The ACC without FSU and Clemson hasn't had a football team finish in the top 6 since at least the 1980s. They were bad regardless. Also ok UNC is an elite public school you were the one who brought them up as not being that. I was under the impression UNCs +1 is ether NCS or they won't have one and will move alone. I'd think UVA would go with VT. But the Virginia schools voted for the 3 new schools suggesting they aren't planning on leaving.
@@commodorezero
"The ACC without FSU and Clemson hasn't had a football team finish in the top 6 since at least the 1980s"
This is clearly incorrect:
Football Playoff Appearances, 1st Rd Wins, Nattys (per Wiki 2015-2023)
ACC: 8-4-2 (Includes 1 of 2 ND appearances)
B12: 2-1-0 (Excludes OK; includes Cincy)
B1G: 10-3-1 (Includes Oregon & Washington)
PAC: 0-0-0 (Excludes Oregon & Washington)
SEC: 14-10-6 (Includes OK)
BCS Runner Ups - Champs (2000 - 2014)
ACC: 4-3 (Includes VATECH, MIAMI, ND)
B12: 0-0 (Excludes NEB, OK, TX)
B1G: 5-2 (Includes NEB, USC, ORE)
PAC: 0-0 (Excludes USC, ORE)
SEC: 6-10 (Includes OK, TEX)
"Also ok UNC is an elite public school you were the one who brought them up as not being that."
No, I simply stated in my original response that the future ACC will likely be without UVA, UNC, CLEMSON & FSU. It was you who went off on a tangent.
"I was under the impression UNCs +1 is ether NCS or they won't have one and will move alone."
Why? NCSTATE is "only" UNC's main football rival. DUKE is the main in basketball, and UVA is the overall main rival. Moreover, the B1G is unlikely to take NCSTATE, and the SEC is unlikely to take both.
"I'd think UVA would go with VT."
Why? UVA is effectively an ACC founder and VATECH was added recently. Moreover, UVA was forced to vote for VATECH."
"But the Virginia schools voted for the 3 new schools suggesting they aren't planning on leaving."
I suspect that UVA was again forced to vote to protect VATECH's interests, but I would acknowledge that's uncertain.
Pretty sure that was/is the intent of the ACC.
As a Davidson football alumn... Randomly seeing my tiny alma mater in this video swelled my heart
10:58
“In State”
Delaware:
There are currently 18 private FBS schools...
WEST:
Baylor
Brigham Young (BYU)
Rice
Southern Cal (USC)
Southern Methodist (SMU)
Stanford
Texas Christian (TCU)
Tulane
Tulsa
EAST:
Boston College (BC)
Duke
Liberty
Miami
Notre Dame
Northwestern
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
... If they formed a conf, it could be called the Big Ivy, and it would instantly become an autonomous conference.
Of those 18, only USC, Stanford, and ND carried .700 OAW (accumulative) records both pre war and post war, vs majority public D1A completion scheduling Stanford has since dropped below .700 by the 1950s and now below 600;
USC has dropped very slightly below .700 as recently as the late 2010's
ND is still a .700 team, but their days could be numbered with current realignment.
Here are the other .700 teams: TEXAS, Oklahoma, Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, Boise State*
* majority schedule less than power majority opponents
@MichaelSmith-xb5cp Of the 18...
Top 5 All-Time Wins (12 of 18 have 600 or more):
1. ND - 948
2. USC - 875
3. Syracuse - 743
4. Boston College - 698
5. TCU - 684
- 12 (of the 18) have 600 or more all-time wins.
- 12 (of the 18) are above .500 (win %) all-time; with ND, USC, and Miami above .600.
National Titles (9 of 18 have claim to national titles):
1. ND - 11
2. USC - 11
3. Miami- 5
4. SMU - 3
5-6 Tie. Stanford/TCU - 2
7-9 Tie. BYU/BC/Syracuse - 1
Most Conf Championships:
1. USC - 37
2. Tulsa - 35
3. BYU - 23
4. TCU - 18
5. Duke - 17
6. Stanford - 15
7. Vandy -13
8. SMU - 12
9. Tulane - 10
Bowl Games (Appearances):
1. USC - 55
2. Miami - 43
3-4 Tie. BYU/Notre Dame - 40
5. TCU - 36
9 of 18 have a Bowl Record win % over .500 (with two more at .5):
1. Wake Forest .647
2. USC .636
3. Liberty .6
4. Syracuse .589
5. Rice .538
6. BC .536
7. Baylor .519
8. Stanford .517
9. TCU .514
10-11 Tie. ND/Vandy .5
Cotton/Fiesta/Orange/Peach/Rose/Sugar bowl game wins:
1. USC - 28
2. Miami - 12
3. ND - 11
4. Stanford - 8
5. TCU - 7
C/F/O/P/R/S (Big Game) win %:
1. USC .700
2. Rice .6666
3. TCU .538461
4. Miami .5217
5 Tie. Boston College/Tulane/NW/BYU .500
Of the 6 NY6/CFP infinity stone bowls (no school in FBS has 6 of 6... Only 11 schools in FBS have 5 of 6... 8 more have 4 of 6):
1 Tie. Miami/TCU = 5 of 6
2. Notre Dame = 4 of 6
3-6 Tie. Duke/USC/Syracuse = 3 of 6
I think the ACC is the closest we’ll get to a non Ivy League conference that has high academic values. Some really smart schools like ND, UVA, UNC, FSU, UMiami, Duke and now the addition of Stanford, SMU, and UC Berkeley.
Good and interesting video. Quite frankly, this whole conference realignment of late has gotten ridiculous. I’m in more favor of D1 football and basketball programs to form semi-pro leagues outside of the NCAA while keeping the brands of their colleges and let all the other sports return to their more traditional/regional conferences. What’s happening now (despite it being about $$$) makes very little sense.
The media markets in this conference would be huge
I think it’s important to ask why the Ivy League had such a hold on the football world and why it no longer has that hold. To know what happens to a magnolia conference with bigger brands.
This is one of the best confernce ideas iv'e heard!
Weird thing is this might be a possible outcome if the ACC folds.
Three thing might happen if the ACC get raided.
ACC survives, a possible Big East Resurgence or the Southern Ivy comes into Existence, depend on which teams leave.
Acc Mangolia League.
East
Duke
Georgia Tech
USF*
Vanderbilt* (SEC going to run out of Slots)
Wake Forest
West
Cal
Rice*
SMU
Stanford
Tulane*
Others that might be members
Boston College
Syracuse
Temple
Washington St
Oregon St
Tulsa
Notre Dame (Full time except football, with 6 football games against the league a year)
That would be a heavy ACC depletion out to the SEC/B1G, which would mean a closed Tier 1 playoff, which would mean ND would have to join one of the then P2s.
Not sure about TEMPLE or TULSA, but neither WASHST nor OREST would fit the academic brand.
ACC is not going anywhere..
Why would DUKE leave the then ACC if WAKE wouldn't?
I’m a Northwestern student and fan…
What I would think would happen is:
-FSU joins the SEC instead of the ACC
-The SWC adds Houston a couple of years earlier or adds another team like UTEP
-WVU joins the ACC
-The Big East doesn’t sponsor Football
"FSU joins the SEC instead of the ACC"
I would guess that ACC still adds MIAMI and 1 more or 1 less BIGEAST school. FSU does not win as much and doesn't make the same degree of academic improvement. UVA, UNC, DUKE and/or GATECH more likely to leave than was the case in actual timeline.
"WVU joins the ACC"
When?
One school that probably would have joined or tried to at least would be UAB. UA has always tried to keep their football program down (Seen in shutting down the program in 2014-15 and never playing UAB even as a non-con opponent during Alabama's up and down 90's under Stalings and DuBose.) so I don't see much objection from the BoT to keep UAB a 1-AA program and even if the magnolia went down from division 1-A to 1-AA or D2 that would fit in as UAB didn't move to D1 until 1996 as an independent. And if the conference did move down due media rights and such in the 90's UAB would fit right in as they started football as D3 in the '91 and '92 seasons before moving up to 1-AA in '93 until '95 when they were approved by the NCAA to move to 1-A. Through all that time they were D3 and 1-AA independents and wouldn't move to a conference until C-USA in '99 where as the Magnolia might have taken them in earlier as a 1-AA Medical research school.