Straight Sabre VS Curved Sabre?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- Recently I have been using both a straight version of the Kvetun Easton sabre (kvetun-armoury..., as well as a more curved than usual example. Being able to switch immediately from one to the other gave me some interesting feedback.
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Matt says, "If you're trying to penetrate someone, if you're trying to get underneath their clothing and get deep into them". Interesting phrasing in which the context is is very important.
Bow chicka wow wow...
I paused and went straight to the comments. Not disappointed
@@axansaga same
Straight thrusting for the over 50's.
And only the merest of twinkles in the eye during delivery. The man is made of stone.
I was studying, but this was clearly more important.
Same
Off course it was!
You're studying the blade
You are now a student of steel..
you are making good choices in life and we support you in that
It bears mentioning that sabres aren't curved in the same ways. Some curves are continuous (katanas), some are curved and yet have their point in-line with wrist because the grip is angled (some shashkas), some have their curves start at only about halfway to two thirds up the blade (most early to high medieval Magyar sabres, several post-medieval Hungarian sabres) and so on. Things that are true of the two sabres seen in videos may or may not apply.
I just have to say I think this is one of the most important videos you've put out. It cuts to the quick of one of the most fundamental aspects of sword design in a way that really focuses down on just this one element, as I think most times folks discuss sword blades in the straight vs curved debate, entirely different models if sword are discussed. Longsword vs katana, saber vs rapier, etc. This dispenses with all the distractions and focuses on pure geometry. I learned a lot from this video; I wasn't aware of several of the quirks inherent to curved blades that you mentioned here and it really helped develop my understanding of them given that most if my own experience is with straight blades, even down to my own sabre. Thank you for putting this out.
Yes this was super informative and particularly valuable for me was empirical observation that everything being equal, curved sword seems to deliver more force to the target in a cut than straight. I have seen lots of coffee table theoryhammering about this and also arguments that there is no actual difference and that curved blade was simply a fashion/quirk of manufacture or something. Yet the popularity of curved cutting swords (both curved and recurved) across the ages implies that there must have been some fundamental advantages in the blade geometry itself.
@@terhazza Dont take that point too far however. Matt has also mentioned on many ocassions that that can be overstated as well. And trends can and usually are multifaceted. there was probably both aspects of utility and culture that influences blade shape, not just one or the other.
@terhazza Don't just take his word on these blindly though. He provided no evidence for his ideas. Take his idea about guarding. A curved bridge can withstand more force without breaking, but swords bend, so it isn't a relevant comparison and he admits to not really understanding.
Even if both claims are true, he doesn't know why.
I have never touched a sword in my life. But I enjoy learning about them
I don't own any swords. I have a nylon practice longsword that I have never sparred with.
I fucking love swords tho. I'm just broke and don't have the time or money to get into HEMA.
Im a all blacksmith that makes both fine blades and economy blades if you want to get an affordable weapon@@Griff1011
Same here pal
wow, three in one go and he didn't even threaten a smile; this man has become an innuendo master before our very eyes
It seems like heavy cavalry sabres are often straight and light cavalry sabres are often curved. Is this observation accurate? If so, I wonder why.
Heavy and light cavalry have different roles. The heavy cav do the charging against formations so I guess go in with the point. The light cav are usually engaged in scouting, flanking and harassing actions where they are passing through dispersed enemies and the slice and dice curved blade is the better option.
They're meant to use them more in the thrust for charges apparently, while light cavalry would slash, harry and get involved in a melé.
I believe your observation to be correct (just from the examples I have happened to notice-which it must be said, is a widely incomplete sample). I have understood this to be due to design/ethos: that heavy cavalry were expected to be armed with what amounted to a lance in sabre form; while light cavalry were expected to be armed with swords. Effectively a reflection of their different historical equivalents/progenitors.
As such, this tendency (heavy tending to straight & light tending to curve) may have been as much tradition/fashion/expectation as deliberate, functional choice.
Not always but sometimes yes, most victorian era cavalry sabres be it for heavies or lights are only slightly curved anyway.
that changes in time, matt made a few videos on the topic, check them out ;)
See that Superdry spokesman there, he's got curved sabers. Curved. Sabers.
I guess those are sabres tho ...
5:29 - 5:35 - Context is everything.
Matt has done it again.
The physics of the parry may be helped by the majority of the blade being aft of the hand. So an impact will create a bending moment that wants to put the front edge on line.
Also, I love the sneaky thrust over the arm.
That's my thought as well. The point of impact is slightly behind the hand, and that helps keeping the sword in place even with a looser grip.
"...if you're trying to get underneath their clothing and deep into them..." so, he's just committed to the double entendres now.
You didn't mention whether the curved blade offered any noticeable increase to ease of edge alignment while cutting … which I would have thought would be among it's chief advantages. Have you not noticed any difference in this regard? I may have to significantly adjust my priors!
Long time subscriber, first time commenter. I love what you do and how unbiased, or...worldly you are in your studies. That makes you truly great.
Please continue to share with us.
I am a side-sword/cup-hilt rapier guy, with that being said, your Saber design is really nice...Congratulations to getting your goal for your ideal Saber being produced!!!
I've heard that a slight upwards curve really helps with penetration.
I showed you my slight upwards curve, please respond
Depends on positioning.
._.
@@zazenwind you mean "context"
in a curved blade, the point of application of force on impact will be smaller, which means the depth of the resulting penetration will be greater. sorry about my english
Fascinating! A very unique comparison. Thank you for the information!
I'm interested to know. If the curved sword occupies more space does that aid in intercepting the opponents thrusts, or would the curved blade at least widen the tolerances for accuracy a little bit?
I do prefer a straight sabre personally, slightly curved like 1845 is fine.
This really helped me to choose a blade curvaturature for my Kvetun sabre
What i like with a curved blade is that when you block in the upper part of the body, it protects head, shoulder and torso. With a straight blade you have go farther to protect your shoulder and it exposes your head more or vice versa.
".....if you're trying to penetrate someone, if you're trying to get underneath their clothing and get deep into them, then the straight blade is better for that than a curved blade....." I wasn't given a choice.
It's all good! His next sentence was, "That being said, a curved blade can do interesting things a straight blade can't do so well."
If your blade is curved, you might want to see a doctor about it
Oh this got me thinking about a design for a curved rapier with a rapier system based on weird angle thrusts with opposition.
Perfect timing. I was studying your older films about this topic for nerdy science reasons and you just gave me another one
"The point is coming perilously close to you." VERY perilous considering the anatomy near that point LOL
Thank God you made this video 😂 I wanted the mark 3 but I was torn about curved or straight and thankfully you have this covered! lol
“If you’re trying to get under their clothes and deep into them…“
BOOM! Phrasing. 😀
Depends on the CONTEXT 🙃
Matt, something interesting I noticed, maybe only to me. My son and I, along with some other friends play some fantasy TTRPG's. I have noticed in the past that arming a player character that has wings on their back is a bit tricky. Most polearms present no challenge, the same with most non-double bitted axes, but HEMA type longswords and of course greatswords in their methods of execution look to be dangerious to one's own wings. The same to a lesser extent with the HEMA type use of the langmesser. Now watching you perform the molineux with both the straight and curved sabers I noted that the straight saber presented the same danger to our fantasy players wings as the afore mentioned swords, but when you were demonstrating this with the curved, particularly the Persian shamshir, that the body was presented with some danger due to the closeness of the blade, but to the wings might be less so. I realize that I am dealing in fantasy, and in situations where "magic" could preempt physics, but it is one of those things that has occupied my mind through the years. Interesting video, thanks.
Magic being a catchall solutions to everything is boring. It's much more interesting to think how such things as wings would affect fighting styles and weapon choices.
@@adambielen8996 I agree. My son says that they've practiced with wings, so they will be in good practice, but you watch cutting videos and see people not under combat pressure forgetting and putting the wrong foot forward in a cut. I believe taking the proposed proper usage of a weapon into consideration helps with my suspension of disbelief. As a gm I don't hold my players to this standard, but I do mention it when they choose their weapons. Thanks for the comment.
Almost all creatures with wings fold them so close to their back/thorax as to not be a barrier to mobility when not flying. It would be if a different story for aerial combat though with wings extended. It would fun world building to think different tactics and weapons that would develop. A pole weapon would make the greatest sense to take advantage of mobility and reduce the chance of flying into ground or opponent in a charge.
I was expecting really curve would look more like a Polish sabre
nahhhhhhh
Polish sabres aren't the yardstick by which we measure curved sabres 😅
Wait, did I miss where you said your preference? You gave lots of data about the differences, but you didn't say which one you prefer. Or did I miss it entirely and I'm just embarrassing myself here?
I think that he dislikes strongly curved blades and prefers tip action over slashing. Also, Indian sabres don't work with his system.
both
If he said it, I missed it too.
He didn't say, actually.
I got the impression that he personally preferred straight blades, but I think he intentionally didn't pick one or the other in this video because they both have unique advantages and disadvantages and it just depends what you're looking for
Eager to hear which you personally prefer as stated early in the video. If I had to guess id say you would opt for not then straight nor the curved but then slightly curved...i base that on the marginalized advantages and disadvantages: not so much less reach, unique thrust angles, fortey-er forte, slightly heavier slash. A context fencer, considering not simply tournament points but the martial experience, I think would opt for the balance of strengths and weaknesses. That's where I find myself anyway as a roworth/Taylor focused practitioner who uses a very 1796 light cav style curve and a half basket straight backsword in practice. Either way I'd love all three varietes of the cat easton mk3 haha
I agree. I premise that I've never touched a sword in my life, so my opinion doesn't count a lot. Anyway, thinking about it, if I have to choose, I'd choose a slightly curved saber for a no armour foot duel. I think that the inability to trust directly of the curved saber is a great disadvantage. The slightly curved saber has not this disadvantage (even if it is not efficient as a straight sword in doing it). At the same it has all the advantages of the sabers, even if reduced.
Interestingly these conclusions seem to suggest that in most modern hema bouts a straight blade would give a slight advantage as cutting more or hitting harder aren't actually useful in that context
If possible you should do a close up, slow motion video that shows the parties using a straight blade and a curved blade.
I'm not sure the visuals will tell us anything but my guess is that in seeing the impact in slow motion it might help reveal why a curved blade takes the hit better.
The main advantage of both the straight and curved sword is it provides HEMA people with the equivalent to the Superman vs Batman argument for comic book fans;). If all you do is argue the point you're not likely to win a fight with either one of them;).
5:28 Can we all appreciate the fact that he said all that with a straight face?
5:25 I'm impressed you managed to do that bit with a straight face....
Matt, can you consider recording the audio in (or converting it to) mono? When you move, the audio moves from side to side, which is slightly distracting. It's not a huge deal, but it's also not a huge cost. Cheers!
I like the handgaurds on the cutlass for an off hand better than a round shield, although I might try dodging first or deflecting the two handed or Danish axes in that case.
And I liked my idea of retreating with a main hand flail, or it being a great weapon of retreat around stone. Although the person with a bow might not want a big off hand cutlass.
The curved blade could still be more suited towards cutting, with possibly scoring more than one hit on a few of a thousand opponents, maybe after a good opening parry or handgaurd punch deflection, and less prone to injuring yourself with off hand awkwardness, though at slight disadvantage comparing opening thrusts with the straight bladed cutlass.
Which it looks like most people use in the main hand fencing style. Or rather than a rapier, very good for thrusting, depending on length against a sabre. With a main hand sabre rather than an off hand.
I had a maestro tell me that he would prefer a straight blade for dueling and a curved blade for combat and for dueling while mounted. Speaking of which, how common were mounted duels, does anyone know? Thank you for yet another excellent video, your hard work is much appreciated.
Peace
Learning to use the sabre atm. One observation I have is that a curved blade helps to teach you about edge alignment in the cut.
Great video Mat! Much appreciated :)
I understand why you glossed over it, but could you talk more about why you think curved swords hit harder? That sounds like a really interesting video topic!
Also, I've heard it said that backwards curving blades can help with edge alignment. Could you talk about that too?
Finally, how do you think forward curving and recurve blades fit into this? I've curious by recurve blades weren't favoured more, on paper they always seemed great to me
Thanks Matt
Huh I never thought about how a curved blade could or would hit harder. But basically the angular acceleration of a curved blade increases further towards the tip, because the angle of acceleratiom increases from the pivot point, in addition to the tangential acceleration. So the centripetal acceleration of a blade increases towards the tip by two variable rates instead of a variable rate and a constant rate. That is if the sword were only rotating from a fixed point. I have no idea how that would compound the actual acceleration of it's displacement through actual space (meaning total distanced traveled through the swing) generated by swinging with wrist, elbow, shoulders, etc.
But uhhh... I have a headache now.
The actual physics behind this can be really complicated indeed.
Tip speed is based purely on how fast the hilt is moving, and the point being further forward or back doesn't change that.
@@demomanchaos no... Do you understand how angular acceleration, tangential acceleration, and centripetal acceleration work? Do you understand how a sling increases a person's ability to throw a projectile? Do you understand how things like vectors of force and levers work? Clearly not.
Much of it is probably just because the curved blades are sturdier and that they hit later than strait blades.
There is likely a small boost from the physics from the different direction of force vector on impact, but at best this would be a small percentage.
Another factor is the angle at which the blade contacts the target. If we draw a tangent plane on the surface we wish to strike, we deliver the most energy when the tangent line of the blade is parallel with that plane (aka: the force is perpendicular to the plane, or maximized). A straight blade can almost never strike a surface in a parallel way, but a curved blade’s tangent lines change, so they can be much closer to parallel to the surface you are striking. Hence, curved blade deliver more of the full energy in the blow. Did that make sense in how I explained it?
Excellent video!
I’m curious about hatchet points for slightly curved swords. Would it be beneficial to have the point in line with the hand, or slightly above it?
Matt, thank you.
I would assume that the easier parry with the curved blade isn't because it works like a curved bridge. I assume that it's more stable because the point of contact is slightly behind the hilt centerline. When something is pushing on the blade, it will try to push the blade away as far as possible. This effect will try to rotate the blade in your hand so that the curve is facing away from the attacking force, which is exactly the position you want. With a straight blade (assuming the blade centerline is identical to the hilt certerline), the point of contact in slightly in front of the centerline (due to the blade width), so you'd have to keep the blade from turning itself flat (which is a more stable, but unwanted position).
Good video! I like the curved sabre, especially the U.S.Cavalry sabre as shown in the John Ford trilogy & "Major Dundee"...I always thought the sabre was more for slashing than for stabbing while on horseback...Perhaps you could do a video on how to use & carry a sabre while on a horse...thanks!
Completely random, but is that a new two handed sword directly behind you? The one with the red grip
He has had it for a while, it is a practice great sword.
Is there any thrusts tests done with straight vs curved blades? We see numerous cutting tests but rarely thrusts tests. And what targets will be good analogues for medieval thrusting targets?
Pigs in coats? … expensive & messy though.
I suppose you could fashion the front of a rib cage from light wood, back it with a heavy sack full of something soft and dress the whole thing in appropriate clothing.
Whether any of this would meaningfully improve your modern practice of HEMA is another question all together, of course. I am, sadly, much too lazy to find out myself!
@@Psittacus_erithacus Surely (fresh) dead pigs are best analogues of human targets, but they are expensive and don't come with organs even when you can buy them. I suppose some large chunk of meat can do like the arrow tests in Tod's workshop.
5:28 "if youre trying to penetrate someone you try to get underneath their clothing and get deep into them"
-Matt Eastern 2021
Came for the context, was not disappointed.
One hesitates to ask about the "slightly curved" sabre you showed but didn't use in your explanations. Might one inquire about the "slightly curved" sabre's advantages and weaknesses as weapons?
I would guess that the slightly curved blade has all or most of the advantages and disadvantages of the very-curved blade, just to lesser degrees
Matt's definitely hitting the weights these days
That's a lot of fascinating observations. I seem to know, instinctively perhaps, that a curved blade would feel somewhat clumsier in my hand than a straight blade. Of course anyone can be trained out of that. I also believe that I would not be a "natural" when it comes to fighting with a sword. I guess there are people that are naturals at this stuff, like there are at everything else. But, I also believe that, were this hema available to me, I think I could be trained up into a reasonable good fencer.
Just based on watching so many of Matt's videos, and knowing that he is sort of a specialist in the saber. I'm guessing he prefers a curved one. I haven't quite finished the video. Maybe he will mention his preference by the end.
Thanks Matt and congrats on getting your own sword designs made. That's a great accomplishment.
The fencing methods taught in things like smallsword and British and French military sabre are unlikely to contain much 'natural' stuff in their systems.
They all require a lot of repetitive drills and practice to overcome people's natural reactions. If you wanted to try HEMA you would be fine. You can start with a blank slate with no bad habits to inhibit your progress. It's super fun.
@@akashahuja2346 that sounds great. But, I'm in the U.S. in a fairly rural area. I'm afraid the closest we get to hema is watching the Lord of the rings. Haha.
You are right though, I would enjoy it.
I'm kind of curious about the process one goes through discovering their favorite type of weapon. Have you had this experience? And, if so, what was it like for you?
@@kennymonty8206 that is an interesting question. I initially had an interest in smallsword but recently started to learn military sabre. I also find knife and dagger enjoyable. And last week had a chance to try some rapier. I think that once you start in HEMA and get to try out various systems you will end up with several favourites!
I know I am very lucky to be near a premier HEMA club.
@@akashahuja2346 you lucky dog. Main gauche sounds tricky. I like it.
Excellent observations Sir, now take it a step further and compare sabers with forward curving and forward-leaning back curves, examples that come to mind are the kukri, khopesh, Dacian falx, sickles, and various Philipino and Malaysian blades. In the west, the forward lean seems to have been accomplished (mostly) through the use of pistol grips of various types, especially in modern times. If you lay 3 such blades on a tabletop (back, straight, forward) you can see which would arrive first on a simple angle 1. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Matt sums up all the reasons why I prefer straight blades.
Good video. I guess having everything about the swords the same, except the blade shape was a pretty smart way of learning the differences, advantages and disadvantages between them.
I'm wondering if dual wielding with one curved blade and the other a straight blade has an advantage, as opposed to using two identical blade types. .
I just went to that website, it's a pain in the ass to navigate.
Straight saber, side sword, and broadsword, I wonder how much difference there is between them.
Difference is in balance. Sidesword point of balance is very close to the hilt, a broadsword a bit further and a straight sabre further still. Sideswords have pob usually about 5cm from crossguard, swords 5-10 and sabres 10-20
We would love some footage of these sparring sessions!
What was the spelling of that style/swing he mentioned at around 10:30? Moolinae? Mulanae?
Im interested in what sources describe that spin/swing/attack because i naturally do it in my fencing duels without knowing it was a technique and ive won alot of rounds as the opponent wasnt expecting it, or underestimated how quickly it would ‘unleash’ and ive won a point by knocking their sword arm
Moulinet, it's a cut from the wrist used a lot in saber
Regarding the curved blade feeling more firm in the deflection of blows, I'm of the suspicion that a better analogy for the absorption of the blow might be (ironically) a hammer. Anyone who has been involved with construction knows that the hammer face has a curve to it - ostensibly, this allows even less-than-perfectly-aligned blows to a nail head to drive the force at a truer angle downwards, and thus you don't bend the nails over. My theory is that the curve of the blade allows for a similarly truer angle of impact when the two blades meet, whereas the straight blade (unless aligned perfectly with the incoming blow) would necessarily include some angular deflection of force, and perhaps lead to the slightly weaker feel.
I would think that the curve would make the space the blade occupies a bit more complicated as well. And I would expect that to be both good and bad, as you have noted.
The additional resistance to blows for a curved blade has a reason. It is called “moment of inertia.” It’s an engineering principle.
Do you mean in regard to what he said about parrying with the curved blade or delivering a cut with a curved blade? Or both?
I think that the curved blade is easier to hit the target with more powerful force, which may be related to the closer attack distance.
When the curved blade hits the target, the part where the blade touches the target has heavier weight. Therefore, when the straight blade and the curved blade are used with the same strength, the force of the curved blade is greater.
This involves more complicated factors (drawing a picture may be easier to understand)
You covered dismounted but a sabre is a mounted weapon. How do they react differently while in the charge or the Mele when you have to worry about cutting the ears off your horse.
Would the culture that the swordsman has grown up in, make the choice of sword? Just wondering. Very interesting, thanks
Okay, it was worth digging into the youtube swamp again...
How about a link to wherever you can look at/purchase one of those practice sabers?
I always liked wrap shots curved blades
So would it be fair to say that a beginner doing sabre (in British military systems anyway) would be better off with a straight blade on balance?
I wonder if the parries on the curved blade are stronger because you have to be closer to your opponent. So your parries are closer to your hand, thus on a stronger part of the blade. Just a thought.
Do the curved sabres hit harder (in sparring) because edge alignment is easier with a curved blade? Just a thought.
Been waiting for this video!
Hi Matt, I see an advantage for the straight blade in this: wether you train in smallsword, backsword, spadroon, sidesword or rapier, the straight sabre is going to be more familiar to you.
I had this on in the background until he said “if your trying to get under someone’s cloths and get deep inside of them” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Patton when he studied this early 1900's came back with the straight blade.
Patton's blade was copied from the Swedish M1893.
Does the stronger guard come from the opponent's blade partially sliding on impact? If so, the difference would probably be smalelr with sharp blades.
Very interesting!
WOOTZ IS BACK !! :D
Will we have a cleaning up video ?
In around 1900 when the cavalry sabre was already long obsolete the government set up a committee to design a new sabre. The result was the 1908 pattern sabre which was straight.
The 1908 was actually extensively used in WW1. The first British kill of WW1 was with a 1908, but a British cavalry officer.
@@scholagladiatoria That's interesting. I thought the last British cavalry charge was on Friday 2nd September 1898 during the Battle of Omdurman. My great grandfather was in the Welsh guards and took part in this massacre of the heathen. Amongst his mementos of his military career I have a very faded photograph of him reloading his Lee Metford rifle during the battle with an officer on a white horse in the background.
I have both the straight & the slightly curved one but i find that i prefer the straight blade. They are both wonderfully made things though.
killer feature (pun intended) of the curved blade, it hits harder
what about curved vs straight picks? ANd bladed picks like the zaghnal have all sorts of curved blades, are they functional?
Additionally, doesn't the lenght depend on how you measure it? For example a 34 inches curved blade needs you to be closer to your target than a 34 inches straight blade, but what if the curved blade is, like 35.36 inches? Depending on the curvature such blade could have the same reach as the straight one, but have more mass (or a longer blade and the same mass). Also such a blade could have the center of mass in the same position of the straight blade (in the X axis, while the Y position axis is moved upwards)
I was waiting for you to say which one is your favorite... Still waiting....
If a curved blade is stronger in absorbing impact: are they more often used without a shield? When using a shield, is it more preferable to use a straight sword, compared when using one sword - one empty hand only?
Totally random question Matt - what is your fitness regime? Is it purely swordplay or do you supplement with extra cardio etc.? And 5:34 Jedi-level ‘Carry-on’ baiting 🤣🤣🤣🤣
At one time, he talked about using Indian clubs, but I think that may have been for dealing with an injury.
I wonder what the difference in wearing them would be. For instance, would the curved blade tend to knock around into more things, as it takes up more area, or would the curve allow it to move more naturally with the legs & not feel as obtrusive, though that may not be the case.
Curved is more wearable...
I wear a curved sabre often, its super wearable, and is rarely an issue when sitting on the floor or chair etc. Depends on size, activity and environment of course. As Matt would say, 'Context' hahaha
.... Is the guarding point would of the reasons why there is alot of examples of straight blades with curves edges, having a more stable strong defense seems really usefull.
But which do you prefer?
The straight saber looks an awful lot like an early rapier. Any connection?
If there is more impact felt by the target with the curved blade, is there also more impact felt by the wielder?
How do the two swords compare in blade flex when thrusting?
I would say that some energy is deflected on strikes against the curved blade compared to the straight blade. Transfering less energy from the blow.
As far as the Perry to strike a wrist just concerned you're not twirling the tip of the blade you're twisting your wrist and thrusting the blade will automatically wrap around the opponent's sword and catch the wrist exactly where you wanted it planted
With a little practice in technique of course
Matt, what about swords with a reverse curve? Upside down saber
Do all of these points also apply to two-handed single edged swords?
What did Patton push for a straight saber?
The grass always looks greener on the other side.
That's why guys with straight swords say, "They've got curved swords"
At the same time Hammerfell guys are like, "They've got straight swords, straight swords."