Yes! It was very interesting. It seems that these techniques are much more energy efficient and have a much healthier design for all flight between takeoff and landing than "true" VTOLs
Back in the early 1970s at school, making obligatory delta-shaped paper planes out of A4 paper, I came up with the idea of adding a 90 degree upturn at the tip and did seem to improve the ability to get a straighter flight line. Now, many years later, as we all know, many commercial airliners have that very 90 degree wing tip feature. Obviously, I cannot claim any credit for what has transpired to be a missed opportunity.
Thank you for this series of videos! It’s very interesting and tells us what to expect in the future. One thing you and your viewers might be interested is the flap set up used by Mike Patey on his Scrappy Aircraft design. Patey used multiple layers of flaps quite successfully on this aircraft. The wings generated enough lift that he could hang motorcycles from them and still fly where he wanted to go. Very cool!
A category missing from this analysis is the Custer lifting duct design. A NASA analysis of the Custer duct reported a lift coefficient so powerful vertical takeoff was possible. The problem they identified was excessive drag and limited top speeds. That caveat is a simple design problem that has a number of obvious solutions. It is crazy they have not been investigated.
@ElectricAviation Yes, I was excited you decided to cover it. But I was surprised you never did a follow-up. The drag issue is surely solvable with some active aero tweaks? Also, I wonder why Custer never thought to merge his design with a gyroplane? It's failure modes are trivial when you can save the aircraft with an autorotation landing.
They’ve been investigated, a German company was at one point planning to try to manufacture a channel wing based aircraft. The issue is that the design requires a twin engine layout, which immediately makes it too expensive for the light GA market. Those twin engines need to be cross shafted for redundancy in the case of the failure of one, which is weight, complexity and cost. So you end up with a big complex expensive aircraft, the potential customers of which would be comparing it to turbine helicopters, which would have some advantages, such as true hovering with full control. Multiple electric motors though could change this equation, which is an interesting possibility.
I have a wing concept for a 3 seat amphibian in which I twist the inner two thirds of the wing so the wing transitions from an ultralight configuration (low lift low drag low landing angle of attack) to a microlight (high lift high drag high angle of attack) configuration. The advantage is high angle lower landing speed with a very precise touch down threshold hold. This ideal for short field operation, while the flat wing ultralight configuration allows higher cruise speed. Look at the A380 in full flap landing configuration to get the idea, but in achieving this by twisting the wing leading edge up and trailing edge down there are several other effects that occur to increase the lift for very low speed short field landings.
Wait, did I miss that RCtestflight video?!?! I have to pause and check his channel quick :) Edit: That video is 2 years old LOL. Thanks love the channel!
Thank you for all your videos. Question; Should the propeller airflow be above the wing or below? I would think it should be above, but I don't see that often.
Would love a video that looks at the potential use cases of hybrid electric estol: eg a cheaper version of heli-skiing, low-cost island microairports,...@@ElectricAviation
1:34 "high lift coefficient can be achieved" which is offset because propulsive efficiency is trashed. This is why NASA'S Maxwell project stows its (extremely inefficient) distributed props during normal flight.
Generally speaking, high coefficient airfoils sections have been used on slow aircraft. Their use on STOL airplanes has been around for a long time though.
Well, there are a lot of misconceptions in the video. The most significant is that STOL is a requirement. Making an inefficient airplane, or a complicated airplane, is never a solution to the problem of short fields. A solution to short fields, is making a longer runway. In the long run, that is much cheaper on all fronts. The Princeton University's solution is horribly wrong.
Lots of Fun being had , [ though no mention of the channel wing ? ]. STOL bush planes like the zenith are getting in the air at around 100 ft ,and some of the ultralights are landing in there own length ,plop ! , this is with out to many more fancy add on's . I have seen info on an antinov being able to basically descend in a controlled mushy stall . It certainly saves huge energy ,flying off vs VTOL , and way more efficient travel .
The Waldo Waterman Aerobile was virtually un scalable and did a controlled mush stall landing. I have a dramatic improvement to the channel wing designed which gives it full VTOL capability but with high speed cruise capability. I haven’t built a drone version for it yet.
This is an interesting video. I wonder, what are the failure modes of a blown flap design? Specifically, if the engine fails during takeoff, what does that mean for the handling compared to an engine-out situation in a conventional aircraft?
I like your teaching style. Presented information is eye opening. why is there such rare examples of this in general aviation? For safety only, this is an example of the slowest speed, reducing the stall speed so dramatically makes for less G loading in an accident.
Would it be efficient to have an effective biplane configuration that recessed into a single double width wing after takeoff ? All the advantages of Fowler flaps and slats with even more wing area for lift at takeoff but reduced drag for cruising.
I an not an aircraft expert, but if I do not miss my guess, an aircraft with higher coefficient are more susceptible to turbulent air. If more lift is obtained from air at low speeds, then high wind gusts hit that wing, then the aircraft will bounce more violently. Is this addressed by any of these craft?
Thanks. There exists a wing with blowers set at about maximum top wing that keeps wing shorter length and probably ~25% thick foil with a sorta stepped wing after the front section leading edge. stepped at highest point on top foil . It's sorta like Clark Y wing fairly flat bottom and very thick ~25% thick leading edge It's starting at zero going to top thickest on top ~ 25% . Instead to gradually curve down to trailing edge from top at ~25% thick at top it follows a very steep curved down and a sorta step foil is created that goes down at about ~70 degrees and curves to a stop about mid line of the typical Clark Y foil . From there the foil has nearly flat foil shape on bottom of step to trailing edge.This wing foil shape is virtually all drag as the air comes of the top of the highest point of the foil and tumbles down the steep slope heading to trailing edge .The solution to this drag issue is about ~5% the jet engine force is directed through the middle of the wing where the leading edge has larger intake holes in it to allow ~5 % jet force air be directed too travel down the center of the wing and created tunnel of reduction channels using reduction layer fan shaped tunnels to reduce the flow to make blowers at the exit of the thickest part of wing at bottom of the step wing foil That's about 1/3 the distance from the leading edge.Then at the thickest part of the wing the ~5% jet force is quickly directed in strep new direction to be sent steeply upwards to follow the steep ~70 degrees angled step. EG jet air flows points also nearly a forwards direction relative to travel direction of flight of the foil wing shape. This ~5% jet force from wing slots collides with wing foil descending air from top of wing foil causing the air on top of wing to follow a curved path similar to what s normal Clark Y wing shaped foil would do without the need for the parasitic wing foil shape .This jet forced air is coming from bottom of stepped wing on flatter part going the to the trailing edge .The high lift ratio is higher than Clark Y types but does require directed air flow through center of wing and severe direction corrections redirected air flow is creating losses of power from turbine jet engines which can be in front of wing foil or buried inside such a thick air foil shape. EG foil is not suitable for high speed use but good for high lift slow STOL flight and is not dependent on flaps so much . The bottom of the foil can be reduced in length do that instead to be 1/3 for front of foil and 2/3 rds the length of foil to trailing edge as in Clark Y types to be closer to ~50/50 ratios there by saving on wing weights and giving ~25% plus wing foil thickness ratios and extra strength for wing carrying the extra weight for STOL use. If you sub to me and supply email I will draw you this foil from memory got from book of aerodynamics ~1974 era It's s book which I can no longer find online or on book shops in Ireland so I do not know name of wing foil
Make distributed electric propulsion but propwash only goes over top surface and you will have very very high lift. More than just regular D.E.P. that is the secret now someone hire me
Yeah, the entire lifting principle of aerofoils is that the faster air over the wing is lower pressure, so why not direct the propulsion over the wing to artificially increase it?
@gormauslander if the prop wash only goes over top and not bottom it creates a larger difference in pressure in top vs bottom. If it goes over top and bottom the Increase is not as much
I still dont think we are there yet. For the aircraft you drag out of your garage that makes use of unregulated airspace, you wont have 60 m to take off, it has to be almost instant and on a very compact wing plan
A single engined plane, such as the Cessna in the video, has the engine fixed to the fuselage. Would there be any advantage if it could tilt up and down, perhaps to enable a greater angle of wing attack for take off and landing?
@@PRH123 My thought, probably as ridiculous as it is, was that, were the engine lowered, the rest of the aeroplane, along with wings, could be angled up, thus increasing the angle of attack. Were there any merit it the idea, it would probably be easier to angle the wings. It amuses me to have ideas.
@@tomellis4750 yes, would be easier just to pitch the whole aircraft upwards, using the elevators, as is done on most aircraft now There were experiments done in the past with aircraft that allowed the wings to freely rotate around the spar, the idea was they would auto adjust to the optimum angle of attack, but I don’t think such an aircraft ever went into production. There was an us naval aircraft that allowed the whole wing plane to move upwards like 5 degrees, for carrier operations, I think mostly to preserve visibility for the pilot when the wing was at high angles of attack.
well, for the interestet audience, who want a plane having 6 seats-space and lift after 6 seconds and can cruise with 65% 190 knts would be the solution we all are looking for...make an aircraft build proposal !!!!!
@@ElectricAviation My joke went over the head. Jokes aside... It is a 100 year old concept. The Nieuport Triplanes were a series of experimental stagger-wing triplanes modified from Nieuport 10, 17 and 17bis biplanes during World War I
You start off with false hoods. Certifications are not lessened , the process will always remain the same. Testing on models has some advantages but air cannot be scaled and therefore the Reynolds’s numbers yield different resultants. They are other misrepresentations in your video.
How many upcycled HDD motors would be required for a drone capable of carrying a person? Making RC Airplane Powered By Hard Drive HDD Motor. Does it fly? th-cam.com/video/sOH7GaUrqN4/w-d-xo.html
Yes! It was very interesting. It seems that these techniques are much more energy efficient and have a much healthier design for all flight between takeoff and landing than "true" VTOLs
I totally agree!
Thanks.
For electric aircraft STOL seems a much better solution than chasing VTOL.
Back in the early 1970s at school, making obligatory delta-shaped paper planes out of A4 paper, I came up with the idea of adding a 90 degree upturn at the tip and did seem to improve the ability to get a straighter flight line. Now, many years later, as we all know, many commercial airliners have that very 90 degree wing tip feature. Obviously, I cannot claim any credit for what has transpired to be a missed opportunity.
Winglets reduce turbulence and even a duck knows you cannot trademark this lol good joke though
So glad I found you! The YT algorithm just had a win.
Your production crew are f'n amazing!
Thank you to all.
Welcome aboard!
Thanks so much for making these videos, super informative and well thought out!!!
Thank you for this series of videos! It’s very interesting and tells us what to expect in the future. One thing you and your viewers might be interested is the flap set up used by Mike Patey on his Scrappy Aircraft design. Patey used multiple layers of flaps quite successfully on this aircraft. The wings generated enough lift that he could hang motorcycles from them and still fly where he wanted to go. Very cool!
Very good video as usual.
Thanks for your appreciation
Always interesting and well presented! Thank You.
I try my best
A category missing from this analysis is the Custer lifting duct design. A NASA analysis of the Custer duct reported a lift coefficient so powerful vertical takeoff was possible. The problem they identified was excessive drag and limited top speeds. That caveat is a simple design problem that has a number of obvious solutions. It is crazy they have not been investigated.
I have made a video on Custer Channel Wings.
@ElectricAviation Yes, I was excited you decided to cover it. But I was surprised you never did a follow-up. The drag issue is surely solvable with some active aero tweaks? Also, I wonder why Custer never thought to merge his design with a gyroplane? It's failure modes are trivial when you can save the aircraft with an autorotation landing.
They’ve been investigated, a German company was at one point planning to try to manufacture a channel wing based aircraft. The issue is that the design requires a twin engine layout, which immediately makes it too expensive for the light GA market. Those twin engines need to be cross shafted for redundancy in the case of the failure of one, which is weight, complexity and cost. So you end up with a big complex expensive aircraft, the potential customers of which would be comparing it to turbine helicopters, which would have some advantages, such as true hovering with full control.
Multiple electric motors though could change this equation, which is an interesting possibility.
Thank you, this was very interesting. 👍💪✌
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent presentation. Thank you.👍🏽
I have a wing concept for a 3 seat amphibian in which I twist the inner two thirds of the wing so the wing transitions from an ultralight configuration (low lift low drag low landing angle of attack) to a microlight (high lift high drag high angle of attack) configuration. The advantage is high angle lower landing speed with a very precise touch down threshold hold. This ideal for short field operation, while the flat wing ultralight configuration allows higher cruise speed. Look at the A380 in full flap landing configuration to get the idea, but in achieving this by twisting the wing leading edge up and trailing edge down there are several other effects that occur to increase the lift for very low speed short field landings.
This is so excting. Distributed propulsion just sounds and is awesome
Wait, did I miss that RCtestflight video?!?! I have to pause and check his channel quick :) Edit: That video is 2 years old LOL. Thanks love the channel!
What about Mike Patey's double leading edge slats?
Thank you for all your videos.
Question;
Should the propeller airflow be above the wing or below?
I would think it should be above, but I don't see that often.
Tjat ladt rake ifc was UNBELIEVABLE 😮😮😮😮 thanks for sharing the technology
A maximum information in this short Video. Excellent!
Glad it was helpful!
Would love a video that looks at the potential use cases of hybrid electric estol: eg a cheaper version of heli-skiing, low-cost island microairports,...@@ElectricAviation
I really enjoy your videos. Very good formula.
Glad you like them!
1:34 "high lift coefficient can be achieved"
which is offset because propulsive efficiency is trashed. This is why NASA'S Maxwell project stows its (extremely inefficient) distributed props during normal flight.
Thanks, good point
Just increase angle of attack the lift will go up to a certain extent
Generally speaking, high coefficient airfoils sections have been used on slow aircraft. Their use on STOL airplanes has been around for a long time though.
Good technical coverage of e-STOL. Honestly, I think these will be where electric aviation becomes widespread first.
Well, there are a lot of misconceptions in the video.
The most significant is that STOL is a requirement. Making an inefficient airplane, or a complicated airplane, is never a solution to the problem of short fields. A solution to short fields, is making a longer runway. In the long run, that is much cheaper on all fronts.
The Princeton University's solution is horribly wrong.
Lots of Fun being had , [ though no mention of the channel wing ? ]. STOL bush planes like the zenith are getting in the air at around 100 ft ,and some of the ultralights are landing in there own length ,plop ! , this is with out to many more fancy add on's . I have seen info on an antinov being able to basically descend in a controlled mushy stall . It certainly saves huge energy ,flying off vs VTOL , and way more efficient travel .
The Waldo Waterman Aerobile was virtually un scalable and did a controlled mush stall landing. I have a dramatic improvement to the channel wing designed which gives it full VTOL capability but with high speed cruise capability. I haven’t built a drone version for it yet.
This is an interesting video. I wonder, what are the failure modes of a blown flap design? Specifically, if the engine fails during takeoff, what does that mean for the handling compared to an engine-out situation in a conventional aircraft?
I like your teaching style. Presented information is eye opening. why is there such rare examples of this in general aviation? For safety only, this is an example of the slowest speed, reducing the stall speed so dramatically makes for less G loading in an accident.
Good vid as usual.
Would it be efficient to have an effective biplane configuration that recessed into a single double width wing after takeoff ? All the advantages of Fowler flaps and slats with even more wing area for lift at takeoff but reduced drag for cruising.
a distributed propulsion seaplane stol performance would be great . so many ponds and lakes and oceans .
Another consideration is to have boundary layer control from a compressed air tank that is filled on the ground before takeoff
Can fulfillany short range missions.
I an not an aircraft expert, but if I do not miss my guess, an aircraft with higher coefficient are more susceptible to turbulent air. If more lift is obtained from air at low speeds, then high wind gusts hit that wing, then the aircraft will bounce more violently. Is this addressed by any of these craft?
Thanks. There exists a wing with blowers set at about maximum top wing that keeps wing shorter length and probably ~25% thick foil with a sorta stepped wing after the front section leading edge. stepped at highest point on top foil . It's sorta like Clark Y wing fairly flat bottom and very thick ~25% thick leading edge It's starting at zero going to top thickest on top ~ 25% . Instead to gradually curve down to trailing edge from top at ~25% thick at top it follows a very steep curved down and a sorta step foil is created that goes down at about ~70 degrees and curves to a stop about mid line of the typical Clark Y foil . From there the foil has nearly flat foil shape on bottom of step to trailing edge.This wing foil shape is virtually all drag as the air comes of the top of the highest point of the foil and tumbles down the steep slope heading to trailing edge .The solution to this drag issue is about ~5% the jet engine force is directed through the middle of the wing where the leading edge has larger intake holes in it to allow ~5 % jet force air be directed too travel down the center of the wing and created tunnel of reduction channels using reduction layer fan shaped tunnels to reduce the flow to make blowers at the exit of the thickest part of wing at bottom of the step wing foil That's about 1/3 the distance from the leading edge.Then at the thickest part of the wing the ~5% jet force is quickly directed in strep new direction to be sent steeply upwards to follow the steep ~70 degrees angled step. EG jet air flows points also nearly a forwards direction relative to travel direction of flight of the foil wing shape. This ~5% jet force from wing slots collides with wing foil descending air from top of wing foil causing the air on top of wing to follow a curved path similar to what s normal Clark Y wing shaped foil would do without the need for the parasitic wing foil shape .This jet forced air is coming from bottom of stepped wing on flatter part going the
to the trailing edge .The high lift ratio is higher than Clark Y types but does require directed air flow through center of wing and severe direction corrections redirected air flow is creating losses of power from turbine jet engines which can be in front of wing foil or buried inside such a thick air foil shape. EG foil is not suitable for high speed use but good for high lift slow STOL flight and is not dependent on flaps so much . The bottom of the foil can be reduced in length do that instead to be 1/3 for front of foil and 2/3 rds the length of foil to trailing edge as in Clark Y types to be closer to ~50/50 ratios there by saving on wing weights and giving ~25% plus wing foil thickness ratios and extra strength for wing carrying the extra weight for STOL use. If you sub to me and supply email I will draw you this foil from memory got from book of aerodynamics ~1974 era It's s book which I can no longer find online or on book shops in Ireland so I do not know name of wing foil
Make distributed electric propulsion but propwash only goes over top surface and you will have very very high lift. More than just regular D.E.P. that is the secret now someone hire me
Yeah, the entire lifting principle of aerofoils is that the faster air over the wing is lower pressure, so why not direct the propulsion over the wing to artificially increase it?
@gormauslander if the prop wash only goes over top and not bottom it creates a larger difference in pressure in top vs bottom. If it goes over top and bottom the Increase is not as much
@@paulrun111 "it creates a larger difference in pressure in top vs bottom" . So... more lift ?
@Newtoon yeah exactly.
Yep, basically we need under-cambered wings for slow flight, like birds have whenever they want.
We getting supermaneuverability with this one
I still dont think we are there yet.
For the aircraft you drag out of your garage that makes use of unregulated airspace, you wont have 60 m to take off, it has to be almost instant and on a very compact wing plan
A single engined plane, such as the Cessna in the video, has the engine fixed to the fuselage. Would there be any advantage if it could tilt up and down, perhaps to enable a greater angle of wing attack for take off and landing?
How would tilting the engine enable a greater angle of attack?
@@PRH123 My thought, probably as ridiculous as it is, was that, were the engine lowered, the rest of the aeroplane, along with wings, could be angled up, thus increasing the angle of attack. Were there any merit it the idea, it would probably be easier to angle the wings.
It amuses me to have ideas.
@@tomellis4750 yes, would be easier just to pitch the whole aircraft upwards, using the elevators, as is done on most aircraft now
There were experiments done in the past with aircraft that allowed the wings to freely rotate around the spar, the idea was they would auto adjust to the optimum angle of attack, but I don’t think such an aircraft ever went into production.
There was an us naval aircraft that allowed the whole wing plane to move upwards like 5 degrees, for carrier operations, I think mostly to preserve visibility for the pilot when the wing was at high angles of attack.
well, for the interestet audience, who want a plane having 6 seats-space and lift after 6 seconds and can cruise with 65% 190 knts would be the solution we all are looking for...make an aircraft build proposal !!!!!
AWESOME!
Interesting, however, both drag and weight increase with increased lift.
Put some ambiance on the background. Not to loud tho
Take a look a Mike Patey's Scrappy aircraft.
Why not use wider wing to increase wing area and eventually increase lift.
Bigger Footprint. Bigger storage space requirement
Make a least drag coefficent video
That is a good idea
So you're saying the African triplane aviator inventors are actually the forefathers of a new era in aviation
Not the Triplane. Because the wings are not in the wake region of each other
@@ElectricAviation My joke went over the head. Jokes aside... It is a 100 year old concept. The Nieuport Triplanes were a series of experimental stagger-wing triplanes modified from Nieuport 10, 17 and 17bis biplanes during World War I
See also: Traditional Chinese dragon kite aerodynamics
Great now test it with an rc plane, one improvement at the time 🙂
You start off with false hoods. Certifications are not lessened , the process will always remain the same. Testing on models has some advantages but air cannot be scaled and therefore the Reynolds’s numbers yield different resultants. They are other misrepresentations in your video.
How many upcycled HDD motors would be required for a drone capable of carrying a person?
Making RC Airplane Powered By Hard Drive HDD Motor. Does it fly?
th-cam.com/video/sOH7GaUrqN4/w-d-xo.html
I enjoyed your video. Thanks for sharing
PLEASE DO NOT USE AI IMAGES!!!
Came here to say this. The thumbnail made me unreasonably upset.
💙💙💙🌈🌈🌈💙💙💙
Rctestflite dmo'd a triplane that y'all borrowed a clip at the beginning of this video,
search e.k.i.p.