AlphaStar: The inside story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- In recent years, StarCraft, considered to be one of the most challenging Real-Time Strategy (RTS) games and one of the longest-played esports of all time, has emerged by consensus as a “grand challenge” for AI research.
Our StarCraft II program AlphaStar is the first Artificial Intelligence to defeat a top professional player. In a series of test matches held on 19 December 2018, AlphaStar decisively beat Team Liquid’s Grzegorz "MaNa" Komincz, one of the world’s strongest professional StarCraft players, 5-0, following a successful benchmark match against his team-mate Dario “TLO” Wünsch. The matches took place under professional match conditions on a competitive ladder map and without any game restrictions.
Read more on our blog: deepmind.com/bl...
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The alpha go documentary was pretty good, this would make a nice sequel
there is already a documentation about alphastar
@@robotec0007 whats the link?
@@robotec0007 Where indeed?
That was a AI vs whole country thing
Is there? What’s it on?
I was gratified to see how gracious the players were in the face of such a defeat.
That really impressed me too. Although, maybe they edited out all the swearing!!! Hahah
"professionnal players"
Idra would have rage quit game 1
These guys got to be some of the best in the world on the backs of hundreds of losses. If course they would be pros about it.
in a game of starcraft, you learn more in games that you lose.
I'm not yet completely satisfied in Alphastar.
1) The APM cap has to be changed. Alphastar had lower mean APM than the human pros but in engagements its APM shot up to 1500's. That equals 25 actions in a second. No human player is capable of doing this with great precision. The APM should be capped in two ways. Firstly, the mean averge per minute as they did in this demonstration but more importantly, Alphastar should be restricted in such a way that the huge spikes are not possible. Perhaps a limit on how many actions it is allowed to do within a second?
2) Especially in the games against Mana, Alphastar demonstrated inhumane ability to control its units. It won game 4 because of how clean its micro was, not because it outplayed Mana. Good army control is impressive and clearly requires a certain level of intelligence but this kind of perfect blink stalker micro doesn't really exist within the game. Deepmind should differentiate between the agents intent and execution. Perfect micro is more than just speed. Precision is much more important. Human pros missclick all the time. There needs to be a random element in how Alphastar controls its units.
3) The agents seemed to be stuck on the strategies that they had trained in. I'm not entirely sure if this is the case but I think there was zero tech switches from Alphastar. It seemed to be stuck on the army compositions it initially chose. In a few games the composition was clearly sub-optimal considering what the human player had. Reacting to the scouted information and actually being able to flexibly adjust strategy on-the-fly is exactly the kind of intelligence that Deepmind should strive towards.
While Alphastar is impressive and Deepmind limited its mechanical ability a little it was still very clear to someone familiar with Starcraft that it won mostly because of its superhuman mechanical ability. It could perceive all of its own units at the same time, it had superhuman mouse precision and macro abilities.
TL;DR Cool but not quite there yet. Alphastar won because of superhuman mechanical abilities. I want to see a bot that plays as slow and as sloppy as the average pro player and still be able to achieve >50% winrate against the best in the World.
great observations. thanks!
I think that still the #1 thing that makes it not as impressive to me is the fact that the AI didn't have a visual input, or seeing what's displayed on the monitor, interacting with the UI - they basically modded the game so that the agent controls some triggers and reads a bunch of variables.
They will most likely never train an agent using only the unmodified visual input because the game simply can not run fast enough. These agents needed the equivalent of 200 years of gameplay. Playing SC2 in realtime just takes too long.
I wonder if Alphastar would put its tl dr to the end of its comment
@@neoqueto Well yeah... It's a computer.
We need a game called Alpha so that DeepMind can create AlphaAlpha in a truly alphaic way.
or a game called BetaGamma
You're there now, expecting that from you 😃😃
Being able to se the whole map at once is an incredibly massive advantage.
They do cap it when it play vs pros
Yes but it had fog of war iirc.
@@dannygjk yes, but it can still see cloaked units. at least in the early versions. (there was review or a replay that showed AlphaStart instantly queuing an observer after it has seen a DT for like only a 1 second in it vision range. and APM for early versions was very hight. as much as 1500 apm with stalker micro is deadly, and it can select units any amount of units in whatever way it wants in very non-human-like way. in games vs TLO it selected only parts of army to target-fire TLO's units (carriers?) and it selected absolutely random units (can't do that with box selection) and selected perfectly enought units to one-shot TLO's carriers.
@@ZLO_FAF Yes. Imagine how good it would be if the human constraints were lifted?! One second of visibility is a lifetime for a CPU.
@@ZLO_FAF If their goal is to be the best StarCraft player, they failed miserably because they essentially are cheating. if their goal is to use StarCraft to make a better AI... only they could know if its happening. But increasing the difficulty to be more human like would certainly push the systems limits and force it to become better at playing. Hard to be impressed with it when its playing on easy mode.
Congrats DeepMind. You're an impressive team.
True that really impressive indeed.
For the sake of us, i only hope that your ia safety team is the strongest of all.
I like how Alphastar worked around APM limitation basically by saving up his available APMs for when they are needed most and then use them in bursts :)
Please make this a full docu as well. Alphago was one of the best docus of the past years.
Came here after the AlphaGo Full Documentary. Impressive stuff!
This work inspires me to get into computer science.
Getting into mathematics first is probably more important than Computer Science if you want to do something like this.
Major Fan of AlphaStar overcoming programming complexities for a better future.
I am glad our AI overlords are learning so quickly to defeat our puny human armies. I also hope they learn to read youtube comments so they know how much us loyal subjects love them.
bº*r#i+n$g h)e]l&p
sorry for that, must have pressed my elbow against the keyboard.
X2.
XD
I can’t wait for them to take over I’m sure they’re intelligent and will let me be an ambassador.
The thing about AI that people underestimate is that the volume of automated training can quickly help an AI to overcome the mistakes in its learning.
With humans, it's very hard to convince someone they're wrong, let alone change someone's mind, and often you just have to breed new humans and hope the old ones die off fast enough so that their mistakes don't get meaningfully passed on to the next generation.
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, Deep Mind has done it again! Well done, very impressive!
I know it had superhuman micro, but let's talk about how amazing it is that it plays human strategies so well, and plays like a human.
Let s just hope AI never do moral judgment like humans are doing! Because your value could very well be considered 0.
@@calgar42k lovely...
Alphastar vs OpenAI
That would be great to watch
With unlimited power
Don't you give them ideas! If they end up learning from each other, that would be the end of us.
@DarkGrisen if you really think so you're funny , you do think serously Google is going to invest $500Million on a company just to play game ....think a little , I could give you clue if you want but try to think deeply about it.
@DarkGrisen I am thinking the machines they are using is their quantum beast letting it learn all it can. It needs to make them money. Micro targeted ads to a single person is their goal.
I think it's extremely cool what you're doing but I'd be interested in knowing exactly what reaction time you used for AlphaStar and also I think you said it was performing at 500APM, I think it would be interesting to see how it changes and adapt when you turn down the APM.
How does it behaves at 450? 400? 300? I think there are a lot of extremely cool observation that can be done by looking at AlphaStar and especially kind of see where the victories come from, of course it will be a mix of strategy and mechanics, I'm curious to see what heppens when gruadually limiting more and more the "mechanical" skills (APM) of the machine.
Anyway really solid work, keep it up!
@1Alino"APM is not a configurable parameter for this AI. " They said in the video multiple times that there is a cap on AlphaStar's APM.
They have limited (or trained) it to have 300 APM overall (it can peak if it needs to, but it has to get an overall APM of about 300). Without any APM limitation it would beat ass a lot more.
300 average apm
Now it is the time to see the clash of A.I : OpenAI Five VS DeepMind AlphaStar .
Model human decision making. Model an army. Model a map. Use enough time and computing power. The military is already knocking.
The military is already obsolete.
This is like watching the scientists in Jurassic Park hold a baby T-Rex and not realizing that one day it’s going to grow up and eat them.
It's amazing how calm these pros are when they lose. I get flustered and upset and if I lost 5-0 I'd feel humiliated. They let it slide off like water to a duck's back.
It's exciting to them to compete. You cannot reach your full potential if the most important thing is winning.
@@dannygjk I love that they don't give up when they are down either. They have a strong mental game, and they really want to win (just look at Mana going at it in the showmatch), but handle the losses too.
It's almost like they do it for a living and are used to losing to top players
Have you ever played the AI in star craft? It always been brutal.
Vote up if you want to watch AlphaStar vs Serral
The AI doesn't play against Terran or Zerg yet.
February 15 2019 is the day.. for this great battle
There is one
th-cam.com/video/_BOp10v8kuM/w-d-xo.html
the best training coach for the pros out there in my honest opinion. Give them few weeks of fighting the A.i and let them loose against humans after; i predict a win for those who trained and fought with A.i
I can't wait to see the progression! Sooner or later it should be able to play any race, against any race. It would be interesting to see if it prefers playing a certain race, or if it perhaps chooses dependent on certain maps or opponents etc
maybe worth mentioning: Mana beat AlphaStar on the live stream match afterwards
The two big things are APM spikes that look normal but are completely impossible because of the precision and camera.
The comments about unrealistic APM/micro are missing the big picture. Once there's a system that can reliably beat pro human players (by "cheating" or otherwise) they can use it as a BENCHMARK to compare to. A benchmark which is much more convenient to use than inviting individual players. You can't get 100 pro players to show up on 3 second's notice and have them play consistently 24/7 for a week...
Once they have that they can work on adding more human like constraints, if they find it useful.
Also the idea that the AI has to be as constrained as humans are is just as silly as objecting that the first planes were allowed to be much bigger than birds and ran on gasoline instead of seeds.
We're not trying to replicate birds or human players. We're trying to build something that does not exist yet.
S A Y I T L O U D E R F O R U S I N T H E B A C K
Nope. It's cheating to grab headlines by big corporate/university teams. The same BS happened with chess. It took another decade for small, independent AI people to get fair wins against top humans in chess (compared to IBM Deep Blue's rigged so-called "win" over Kasparov)
In the Japanese chess (shogi) world, the professional shogi association made strict rules to prevent this kind of BS, barring pro players from accepting rigged matches vs. AI, and forcing fair matches only, so it took AI an extra 2 decades to declare "victory" over top pros in shogi compared to chess. The difference of a fair contest can be that big.
@@illarionbykov7401 Incorrect, I have been following computer chess since 1981 and your claims are false.
Amazing and scary at the same time...
Imagine a grand tournament held each year where the best players in each e-sport try to beat such an AI. I'm sure that would sell some tickets.
The alpha go movie was one of the best documentaries I have seen.
Keep up the good work! You have no idea the smile you bring to the faces of those who love to see technology advance! Thank you for all the hard work! Love it!
Alphastar definitely plays to his strengths. Which are micro and multitasking.
Alphastar appears to have won because of its superhuman mechanical ability to see and control its units at all times rather than a superhuman mind.
Mouse movement speed, visible units on-screen, Actions per SECOND, precision, reaction time - all of these mechanical abilities need to be taken into consideration much more seriously/restrictively if we want to develop a Deep MIND rather than a technique impossible for humans to execute. For me, the excitement around AI is the intelligence, not the aimbot.
Lovely project and clearly a lot of excellent work so far but personally it looked very unfair to the pros.
Agreed. And I think it's pointless to compete an ai v human. If course the ai will win, the game itself only has so many viable styles and ways to win. It's not hard to find out those ways. Especially if you can do hundreds of thousands of games to learn
AlphaGO achieved the deep MIND part, where mechanical skill isn't part of the equation, but I agree its not fun playing against an aimbot
@@bobedwards8896 I think playing against AI is an amazing opportunity. The fastest way to learn is to play against people better than you, but for the pros there is no one better than them. Could you imagine how beneficial it would be if you got used to playing against AI that is to pros as pros are to mid-tier human players? You would become superhuman in your strategy. But only if the AI is playing by the same rules of our world. In real-life you cannot move your hands and fingers fast enough to achieve the 1000+ APM that Alphastar exercised at some points, so the AI can use that unfairly and it can also enable the AI to be lazy with its builds. It would be very educational for human pros to see what an AI would do with the same limits that humans have in terms of strategy rather than relying on things like flawless micro
@@bobedwards8896 I would also like to add that SC2 is similar to Chess and Go in that although the rules are finite and relatively easy to understand, actual strategies are endless. Perhaps there is an OP strategy that we simply have yet to realize. AI could pioneer those for us since it is able to play hundreds of games simultaneously and gain more experience - and insight - than a human ever could
@@user-yd6qk6nk2i It sees the complete map but only what's actually visible to its units and building. It doesn't see through the Fog of War. I agree it's still a slight advantage to be able to see the whole map but it's still incomplete information as in it doesn't know what the opponent is doing.
You may not like it, but after 200 AI years of training this is the most advanced BM of all time 0:35
lol
Congratulation on that achievement DeepMind team. Can't wait to read more about your model when you'll release a paper later.
I wonder if you developped a macro strategy policy that gives short-term objectives to a micro policy ? or if you have only one policy network coupled to a LSTM for memory ?
It can see the whole map? That has to be the most important and difficult
Challenge to over come IMO.
Oh my god, this video gave me the shivers. Awesome
I've been running Fold@Home on my PC for years, and AlphaFold has leapfrogged over any previous efforts by a wide margin. As with any technology, the applications have good and bad prospects. Let's hope the good outweighs the bad in future.
They shouldn’t allow the computer to see more than what a player can. Make the computers only input the output of the screen.
Done.
To many nerds together.I am afraid of what they can create next. Keep doin a good job
1:40 “Alcohol is not just to defeat these players. Alcohol is to do it in the right way.” Wait, there was drinking involved?
"our goal"
Dagnit.. now I can't un-hear alcohol. ^_^
If only TotalBiscuit is still alive today to cast this match.
:(
He's casting in Heaven!
@@momololo3223 No he isn't. He is decomposing six feet underground.
Great work. I think this will have applications in power system optimization.
After watching the games, I think the limitation should be imposed on EPM not APM. As a fan who has watched starcraft games since 2009, I would say no one ever could do the micro-control like AlphaStar did to Phenix and Stalkers. For a human player, select more than three target units instantly is very tricky. When human players tried to do control like this, they might be failing to select any unit, where the action is counted into "APM" not "EPM". Numerous useless actions always happen during a game for human players.
My conclusion is DeepMind considers the fairness in terms of APM's quantity, but they should have introduced another aspect which is the quality of "APM".
The solution is simple, either switching to EPM or gives a probability (close to human players) of mis-operation.
This Documentary is gonna be BIG! (Am I the only one hyped?)
Even if you can make the same amount of clicks, you're still have an advantage by being able to think 1000 times faster. It's not the amount of clicks that matters in Starcraft, it's how valuable and precise they are.
that just shows the intelligence is better, which is the goal.
@ХОРОШО
The processors are working thousands of times faster but not the decision making which is at human levels.
@@bighands69 No, it's not. It's still superhuman in speed. Neural Network doesn't learn to be fast, in fact from it's subjective point of view the game doesn't run at all, it just wait's for it's decision.
@@XOPOIIIO
The ai works by using search algorithms and those were at human levels of search. DO not confuse the cycles of the hardware with the actual decision making of the ai.
Humans because we have a visual cortex can search large numbers of visual patterns and add weight to various parts of the search the ai does not have that advantage.
@@bighands69What do you mean by human levels of search? Is it human level to you to play 200 thousand ingame years in couple of hours? Because that is what they actually did. AI have visual cortext too, it's called Convolutional Neural Networks, just not this particular AI, because in this game it's useless to see units in all their animation instead of a single point on the map, so they simplified it.
absolutely incredible work. would love to see this taken to a team-based game like dota 2, and see if a machine learning bot can climb to the highest rank in the solo queue of that game too. presents a new challenge with the addition of having to cooperate with unpredictable and unreliable human teammates to achieve victory, in five different possible roles with hundreds of heroes and millions of unique team configurations and items and so on.
I can't wait for it to be tasked with material science innovation. i.e. "We need a material that has 1000x the tensile strength of steel, but flexible like fabric...."
Waiting for the day DeepMind develops an AI for Dota 2. I wanna see OpenAI 5 vs AlphaDota
@deepmind, can we see a game without any handicaps on the AI? Just for the curiosity.
Clearly if you have to handicap the AI, we didn't get to see the Alphastars full potential.
I agree, we don't make self-driving cars distracted by talking on the phone or by limiting their sensors to simulate human behaviour and perception. That would defeat the point. Biological systems don't have machine accuracy, but machines don't have billions of years of evolution driven by natural selection behind them either.
I am interested in the battle between the two systems!
They are restricting its mechanical ability, not intelligence. Without that restriction, it will rely on mechanics and not develop intelligence/strategies. A more obvious example is shooting game, if you just make an 100% accurate aim bot (mechanical ability that is impossible to human), then it'll easily win every game without caring about strategy or any other aspect of the game, that'll be boring
When a grandmaster league player play against a silver league SC2 player, they should put an APM cap of 30 to 50 APM to make it fair? I understand your point of view, make it a strategy match not apm match. But there's no such APM limitation in SC2 matches in real world, so alphastar's effective APM is fair game in my opinion.
@@zhenzhu8248 It'll be very boring, and nobody will care. Are you gonna be impressed if an aim bot beat you in a shooting games?
In fact, if that is the case, there is no need for alphastar, some random bots out there probably can beat human. Do researchers care about some silly games that nerds play, or "fairness" or "try to win"? No they don't, it's not the point. The whole point is measurement of AI progress. If I were them, I'd go so far as limit its mechanic bellow human to push it develop new strategy to make up for the disadvantage, now that will be interesting and get press attention
I just want to see what an unrestricted alphastar can do Lol. You want to see a restricted one under your terms. Let's just put it that way. We want to see different things for our own reasons. Pointless for you and I to add any more after this comment
DeepMind had to consider Korean players with Starcraft 1 (remastered).
Korea has suffered enough at the hands of DeepMind already :)
Guys I watched the live stream and on the oversaturation on probes, maybe the tought process of the agent was that the enemy will attack me with a few units> I loose X numbers of probes> hence I make more probes. We saw that the agent was at 24 probes when TLO attacked with 2 adepts and after the attack the agent had 17 probes in main and another 3-4 going for the expansion...
I wondered the same thing. Good thought. Another: Once you do expand, you can immediately jump to having 7 probes at it.
haha you can see MaNa oversaturating his minerals from game 2 onwards as well. Seems like oversaturation will be a thing in the future. It prevents your income from dipping when getting harassed.
And it brings slightly more minerals too!
Artosis did a full stream analyzing the games, and really zeroed in on the oversaturation of probes. It's about a 10% boost in income, and makes mineral line harassment less effective. It does however limit a few early options. Also, MaNa did a stream analyzing his gameplay against Alphastar, and was a little annoyed at the insane precision displayed by the AI. In his last game that he actually did win (when the agent wasn't allowed to see the entire map at once), him and TLO strategized that they could never match Alpha in micro, so they figured an army of brute strength would win. Not only did strength carry the game, but MaNa was definitely able to confuse Alphastar and exploit its lack of understanding.
@@pliskenmovie I watched MaNa's commentary, haven't watched Artosis'. But what you mentioned makes sense about the extra workers. It's good if you wanna play macro and have set builds (AlphaStar).
I love this videos, keep updating us of the backstage
*Do not call victory yet* Alphastar needs to wind using the same information input and control output than players use, that should not be hard to achieve using different neural networks for visual recognition and interface to what alphastar knows and another neural network to link proper mouse movements to what alphastar expect to do.
Without that, we never know how many action by minute is alphago saving or if still doing some kind of cheat by map focus knowledge or minimap.
You can use all the processing power you need (it would not be much even with this addoms and you can keep training without these ANN interfaces).
This will allow alphastar to play a normal version of starcraft 2. *Challenge Accepted?*
I don't think that's going to happen, especially if it involves using a physical keyboard and mouse rather than simulating mouse and keyboard inputs. Although the visual recognition would probably be the worst/most-challenging thing to deal with.
@@MsHojat it is easy to achieve, there are already thousands of neural networks that recognize image and even context in those images, and they add a description in text like "2 kids playing with his dog with a ball", and this was accomplish in 2015, here is way more easier, the neural networks just need an interface to link what it already knows, like units, buildings and terrain features. Trust me, that is super easy for them in real time, check in youtube image recognition in real time.
The keyboard mechanics is just a link to the actions, and the mouse mechanics should use another neural network to link the action with proper movements.
Of course that for learning and training the main strategic neural network should do it in their special software in which it can play thousands of games by day.
But what I am suggesting are just neural networks that it would act as interface.
The first old games that deep mind learned to play, they receive each pixel of information and the controls and figure out all from there, which is more complex of what I am suggesting.
Check this channel:
th-cam.com/users/keeroyzvideos
In fact, the thing it would be a pain of the ass to design and build for them, is the mouse external mechanism,
It will be interesting to impose human-like limitations on an AI, like clicks per second limitation, innate imprecision, etc. We could find out if the AI 'brain' was beating the human brain or if it was winning based on speed, precision, multi tasking, etc. But we won't impose those restrictions on AIs we employ to address real world problems, so I am also interested in how unrestricted AI does against the best humans.
All people here complaining about its apm. Yeah it makes meaningful clicks faster and starcraft is a game where micro is rewarded. Why are we taking away that advantage? The typical response is "then we do not get any imsight from it".
I disagree. The only thing we need is a competitor engine to Alphastar (perhaps their own agent variety is enough). Then we can see how two full throttled AI with no arbitrary apm limitations battle it out. In this case if both sides micro equally well they will need to make a difference via their strategy. That would be a marvel to watch.
In chess, one can already argue that watching the Leela - Stockfish superfinals going on right now is much more interesting than top humans.
I hope we see a starcraft engine league in the near future.
You guys have the best job ever...
David Silver is an inspiration to many 🙌
A remarkable feat no doubt, but it would have been great to see AlphaGo face the top 5 in the world including Serral with their own mice and keyboards etc. It makes a big difference.
"Alphastar can't react quicker than a human" -displays millisecond-perfect timing and performs up to 1,500 APM
I believe they did cap the APM to a realistic for human amount and also the amount of screens per second it could look at was also limited.
@@svilen12345 The average APM is on a realistic amount, but this version could use too much actions during a fight and use a low amount of actions before to compensate.
So many ways the game could be rigged to the AI's favour. This is not Go or Chess, whereby reaction time and visual perceptions weights so much in real-time strategy game.
Use BostonDynamics and build some arms & eyes, and play on the fair ground & same inputs (mouse and keyboard) as human players. Dont even have to limit the robot's mechanical capabilities (APMs and response time), and i will be convinced.
They certainly would have to limit the robot's mechanical capabilities. Robot actuators are much faster, stronger, and very much more precise than human motor control. Plus, reaction time: Human reaction time is on the order of 200 ms. Robot reaction time is below 1 ms.
@@davidwuhrer6704 Robot will still have to check what are those dots on minimap. and will not be able to spot cloaked units while his screen is elsewhere
The fact that it can have a high APM. Shows you that in the digital world, future AI will surpass humans by far in tasks that can be solved through computers
That much was certain. But what tasks can be solved through computers?
And what tasks can not? Are there any tasks that humans can do that computers can't or won't be able to do better?
well fog of war is one of the main criterias in these games.. if computer has full knowledge then there is no fight here.. kudos to the pro players for accepting such a challenge. these guys needs to get a new standard for testing their AI
Nice to see humans that outsmarted other spicies with their tools are now been outsmarted by that tools.
I love Reinforcement Learning and its variants, hopefully would be working with you guys or somewhere else if not, creating agents that surpass humans by far! 😊
Well, you forgot that Mana won against the Agent who was not allowed to be everywhere on the map at the same time, although more to it glitching out than that.
Still, good work. Lets see where this will go.
I would love to see some games AI vs AI, just to see what happens
They are coming!
They need to make AlphaMayweather.
Wow!😃 I got a really big simple during the match and when AlphaStar won the matches
There are actually 2 sides/directions in the comments.
- Side A: AI has same information, same execution like human. Goal: make better solution than human.
- Side B: AI has same information like human but with superior execution. Goal: make better solution than human.
So it's pointless to attack each other. It's just different people want different thing.
The problem here is that from what i gathered, Deepmind team claimed Alphastar is side A, but Starcraft pros pointed out it's side B. So what's exactly Alphastar? I don't know.
But whatever it is, it's still good to see some AI progression.
1:58 thats obviously not true from gameplay footage. It's average apm is lower for good reason but it still spikes absurdly high during crucial moments like combat micro. Also players use actions differently than a perfect ai, like spamming keys for example, so a lower apm for the AI would seem to happen naturally.
I think that they should try to make Alphastar win against human while using as low APM as possible, in my opinion I would be awesomely cool if they set that as the goal condition for Alphastar. Imagine to see it beat a human while its mean APM are at 60.
Interesting video. Reminds me of the old early days of AI back in the early 80s with LISP machines.
Letting it see the whole map at once is a definite cheat. Navigating the map is a significant part of the game and yet alphastar didn't have to deal with that. And it really showed when large armies were being micro'd despite not all being able to fit within one screen. Something that is just physically impossible for a normal player to do.
Impressive deep mind team, this is very cool and exciting! I think the improvement between TLO games and Mana games were improving the mechanics to beyond-human levels. Do you plan to scale back the "effective APM" to more human levels now that it is hitting like 1200-1500 apm (mostly effective, I assume?) in one reply I watched.
Done.
The Pros looked somewhat misstreated, since they kind of know that right now they got outplayed more by mechanical precicion and efficiency rather than straight up strategy. So if they can balance for example the APM in engagements to somewhat match the physical capabilities of a human being it would be more comparable.
Nevertheless its needlessly to say that the AI already is very impressive and I´m looking forward on keeping an eye on Deeplearning for RTS and other types of games!!
AI Era is very very astonishing and impressive. I doubt whether it can play games like Clash Royale too..?!
They should do this again without switching agents and having multiple races playable. That would better showcase decision making over unit control and flexibility against being metagamed, also would showcase more of the situation that happened in the game it lost, where the human found an exploit. I know that letting people mine for exploits is less likely to give them headline material, but if their work could withstand all that, they could make the claims the headlines are making with a clean conscience.
(edit) the headlines say "ai beats top humans 10-0" which is true and VERY impressive, but it seems to also give the vibe(to laymen at least) of them having solved the game in the same sense they have with chess and go and I don't think that is the case.
I'd like to see the AI try to play a team of pros at the same time
AI vs 4+ pro players?
Id like to see them play top Korean Protoss players
Id like to see a single AI with different strategies instead of 10 different AIs like they did in this demonstration
2falconpunch There is a huge difference between MaNa (Top 3 foreign protoss) and a player like Stats (best protoss in the world) (or sOs/Zest).
I guess you arent into the sc2 pro scene but the difference in skill is actually massive especally between these 2 (MaNa - Stats)
2falconpunch What does this Change about Mana not being even Close to the Level of Stats??? Like i didnt even say it's Micro was human lmaooo
Working at DeepMind would be a dream come true, but sadly they are based in London and i live in the US.
Hello Deepmind Team, shouldn't now the next step be to create an AI that could learn any game in the world in 24h. So any Top 100 Player of a video game could come and challenge it for a 1v1 anytime?
I wanna see the documentary like alphago bout alphastar
There needs to be a clear APM cap basing on average APM sort of hides it's APM spikes during fights. We know it's super precise I have no issues with that. Just keep the APM max respectable maybe 500-600 peaks given its precision and make it move the camera . If these 2 things are sorted we'll have a damn fair fight
In 100 years someone will find this video and wonder why they created AI that destroyed us. You're nothing but harbingers of our demise.
I like how even the people that developed the AI had no idea what the hell it was doing, and expected it to lose.
It will actually take machine learning to discover how the machines are coming to their conclusions.
In other words it takes a car to catch a car.
Fascinating!! Looking forward to where this type of AI leads us.
They're going to be everywhere!
The only issue is yes the actions per minute are human like but it if go to effective actions per min during engagements the alphastar reached numbers of 600-800 per minute while mana was at about 400. Effective actions per minute ate the ones that matter.
needs to play all matchups and on all maps. Needs to move camera and have same apm and reaction as person. It needs to prove it can outplay a person on a level playing field. That is the true test of AI. I am already impressed though it plays very human like
That is what they will try next: Have it need to move the camera. They already restricted reaction time and APM, though maybe they didn't restrict it in the right way.
As they said: They didn't expect it to win already.
Imagine if they Dev a tilt focused build for alpha star or whatever variant they make for dota 2 or lol or maybe even csgo valorant etc
The AI can see the whole map? That’s quite a huge advantage for a game in Starcraft. Even if u limit the APM that doesn’t really make a huge difference.
So they got a computer to beat a human at a computer game? I mean how is this even an achievement. The same with AlphaGo when it beat Lee Sedol. They put together the best minds in the world literally dozens even 100s of people backed by Google, one largest Tech companies in the world, then proceeded to use advanced computers and a team of engineers to beat 1 human mind at a game of Chinese checkers? Really great achievement...By that I mean the a Human actually put up a good challenge!!
It boggles the mind when they say “I didn’t except the AI to be that good” when all they do is play video games! You literally know the power of AI 🤦♂️
Not sure if it was ever brought to your attention but there is a fatal flaw in your testing, and that is not having the distinction of APM vs EPM in your baseline. Taking a pros actions per minute average and capping the ai to those highs gave too much control for the machine. Most APM is bloat clicks for a human player the true core to the actions is effective actions per minute, and I think if you would have had tied the machine to effective action averages we could have seen a better result.
Put this into a top tier government military systems and you made yourself a Terminator.
Hey all, hate to break it to you but this was actually the deciding set of matches for humanity's freedom.
Come to Korea. Revenge match in Starcraft for Lee Sedol!!!
I think a lot of people are being ridiculous on this - and it's showed in Dota 2, Chess and Go for respective AI tournaments. They see it as a threat, insult it and make excuses for why it won and how unfair it is. Some even go so far as to call the people behind it cheaters. This is such a short sighted way of looking at things. This technology isn't going to be used to beat people at video games. It's doing that now because video games are a good way to test its ability to grow and lets them develop the AI based on something that has a clear outcome (win or lose) and is competitive.
The real technology is going to be used for medical purposes, research, industry and so much more. It may well have the potential to change our lives and for the better. We should be encouraging that and the people who work on it. Not getting worked up because it beat people at a video game. Though, to be fair, I'd say the SC2 community has taken it better than the Dota 2 one did. Sheesh.
Still, even seeing some comments here, it's just "It only won because..." and "these programmers are lying..." and "it cheated" or "it's pointless to make AI play against humans".
Even if we JUST assumed it was only ever designed for playing video games, I'd still encourage it because wouldn't we all like games - strategy, rpg or otherwise - to have better AI? Instead of what you get in many games where the AI just gets a stat or economy advantage, etc...
"The real technology is going to be used for medical purposes, research, industry and so much more. It may well have the potential to change our lives and for the better. We should be encouraging that and the people who work on it."
True. But it could also be used as a weapon or tool for terrible purposes such as to damage, control, manipulate, or exploit. Also, the technology you see here looks quite harmless, but there are some who see it as the building blocks to something far worse and more chaotic. Unfortunately, man's desire to innovate something so powerful can only be delayed - never avoided (unless the world ends first of course).
Hi, If we think they are doing all of these work only to be used for medical, research and industry then we have not even touched the base case, that is it's actual use in military intelligence. Why do u think they are starting AI testing with strategic games like Chess, GO, DOTA. They are testing how fast it can learn the enemy's attack pattern and come up with a counter attack and the most import use of all is to monitor the human internet usage. What they like, what they dont like and can alter even result of common searches accordingly. When AI test is successful, all of the companies will give admin access to these AI for accessing and changing their server contents. Think about all the threat that can come with it.
@Coeur
Do not talk if you don't know what you are talking about. People pointing out obvious flaws in the implementation of mechanical restrictions are PRECISELY the people who want to see AlphaStar get even better at strategical thinking. You are portraying those people as the exact opposite of what they are. You are being the embodiment of "short-sighted". Being a fan of a technology is not being a "yes-man", but speaking out when there is something disingenuous being displayed.
@@bawzzzz Thanks for a pointless comment. Here are some of the comments I was referring to when mentioning how pedantic people are being:
"God it bothers me so much how they claim to have limited the AI's reaction time and speed to resemble a human. They are lying and they know it. " - Instantly suggesting the programmers are lying because they have nothing better to do than want to win at a computer game.
"The solution is simple, either switching to EPM or gives a probability (close to human players) of mis-operation." - Trying to find ways to worsen Alphastar because it being more fair at a computer game is more important than it being improved to be a valuable tool.
"They shouldn’t allow the computer to see more than what a player can. Make the computers only input the output of the screen." - More on how it should be limited for no other benefit than to make us feel better. I.e. no improvement to DeepMind's mission, etc.
"Why did you feel the need to lie about AlphaStar's mechanical limitations? Everybody in the Starcraft community can see that the level of micromanagement that it uses is unattainable by human players. Everything about this is really cool, but this sours it up for me." - Again, just more focus on perceived unfairness.
I never once suggested - as you seem to think - that people pointing out mechanical flaws was the problem. As I said in my post, my issue was with people attacking AS and the team behind it for their work.
When AI takes over people's job eventually it will be different story.