The opening of this canto is the most beautiful section so far in Purgatorio for me. It is emotionally alive and captures the tension between moving forwards spiritually as a pilgrim versus regret and nostalgia for a life left behind. Thanks to you I am noticing the recurring use of music, colour and light now.
I agree--the opening in this one is really beautiful. There is a lot throughout Purgatorio that I don't fully grasp, either historically or metaphorically, but can still find such beauty in the words. It is a strange thing.
Very beautiful language, especially at the beginning of the canto. Thanks for another great discussion. These are improving my reading experience greatly.
As it turns out I have been watching the Great Courses series "The Cathedral" (24 lectures by Professor Cook) while making my way through "Purgatorio". I learned that one of the recurring images in the sculpture of the famous cathedrals is that of the daily return of Christ into the Christian's life. It sort of mirrors the angels and serpent episode in this canto (this is also suggested by Musa, who references St. Bernard here in his notes). The angels/serpent scene is the image that will stick with me from this canto, especially the apparent indifference of the souls in antepurgatory compared to the anxiousness of the Pilgrim. Thank you again for your videos!
There a lot of hanging around and passivity in ante purgatory ....I can't help thinking of a long queue to get into an event , it's a sort of nothing space but full of anticipation ...and every so often people burst into song or the event organiser drops by to boost moral and shows them a teaser ....and the shades are hoping to queue jump by having a friend intervene with the organiser. In another subject I'm so enjoying reading purgatory alongside the Italian .TSEliot said ".The whole study and practice of Dante seems to me to teach that the poet should be the servant of his language, rather than the master of it." . Exactly .
Good day, Tom. I've been enjoying your insightful discussion on Canto's 6-8. I'm glad you are pointing out how much Virgil changes in Purgatory; it's something I completely missed. I also didn't know that demons were allowed in Purgatory. It's something I either don't remember or was never told when I attended Catholic school as a kid. It would've been something I'd remember, I think. The significance of the 3 stars (faith, hope, and charity) and how they took the place of the 4 pagan ideals (prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude) in Western man's thinking I found interesting when I read it. Have you read Boris Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago? I think there are many parallels with The Divine Comedy, and aforementioned stars made me think of a conversation Zhivago's Uncle had with a friend of his early in the novel. Uncle Nikolay, a defrocked (Greek Orthodox) priest, whose humanity and thinking had a huge influence on young Yuri Zhivago when he went to live with him after the death of his mother. The following quote by his Uncle to his friend I found fascinating and again, I was reminded of it when I re-read Canto 8: "What you don't understand is that it is possible to be an atheist, it is possible not to know if God exists or why He should, and yet to believe that man does not live in a state of nature in history, and that history as we know it now began with Christ, it was founded by Him on the Gospels. Now what is history? Its beginning is that of the centuries of systematic work devoted to the solution of the enigma of death, so that death itself may eventually be overcome. This is why people write symphonies, and why they discover mathematical infinity and electromagnetic waves. Now, you can't advance in this direction without a certain upsurge of spirit. You can't make such discoveries without spiritual equipment, and for this, everything necessary has been given us in the Gospels. What is it? Firstly, the love of one's neighbor - the supreme form of living energy. Once it fills the heart of man it has to overflow and spend itself. And secondly, the two concepts which are the main part of the make up of modern man - without them he is inconceivable -the ideas of free personality and of life regarded as sacrifice.- Mind you, all this is still quite new. There was no history in this sense in the classical world. There you had blood and beastliness and cruelty and pock-marked Caligulas untouched by the suspicion that any man who enslaves others is inevitably second-rate. There you had the boastful dead eternity of bronze monuments and marble columns. It was not until after the coming of Christ that time and man could breathe freely. It was not until after Him that men began to live in their posterity and ceased to die in ditches like dogs - instead, they died at home, in history, at the height of the work they devoted to the conquest of death, being themselves dedicated to this aim."
@@tomlabooks3263 Doctor Zhivago is an unusual novel. It can't be read like a conventional, straight forward novel, whether from the 19th or 20th century. Each chapter is symbolic like reading a prose poem, where images and events that occur in one are referenced in another one, adding a new layer to the story. The name "Zhivago" means life and Yuri Zhivago's profession is a medical doctor. "Lara," the woman he's in love with means, " water or sea gull." And Zhivago has a mysterious half brother, Yevgraf, who appears whenever Zhivago is in trouble and helps him. He serves as Zhivago's guardian angel. The book is pregnant with Christian symbolism, which I think most Russian's at the time would've caught, if the novel had been published there. As you probably know, Pasternak had it smuggled out of the country to Italy where it was published and immediately translated to English and other languages becoming a best seller. The book was banned in the former Soviet Union until 1987 or 88, I think. His meetings with Lara, are interesting from a Divine Comedy point, because he first sees her in his adolescence, 5 years pass and he sees her as very young man, and it's the third time, about 5 years again, when he is a doctor and she a nurse, that he falls in love with her. And both are married to other people. Dante saw Beatriz only 3 times in his life, Zhivago will see Lara much more, but I found it curious that it was at the third meeting that he realized his love for her. This third meeting happened in February, and the chapter is titled, "The Advent of the Inevitable." His first meeting occurred on a January, the second in December, months between Christmas and Easter. I don't think the dates are arbitrary, nor is much of this beautiful novel, rich in humanity amongst a human tragedy.
Hey, Tom! "Catch up day," for me, here. I like it when the pilgrim breaks the "fourth wall" and addresses the Reader directly. I also like the symbolism of the Four Cardinal Virtues (yes, there are tarot keys: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude (Strength), and Temperance). I want a Visconti Tarot deck, now 🃏🔮🧙♂️ Nice tie in w Ugallino (sp!) from "Inferno" being his cousin. 😎🌄🤓
Very interesting - thank you! I especially like the moment when the three "new stars" are becoming the guiding lights for their Journey.. there's so much foreshadowing in this canto I think, both for canto 9 and for the bigger movement of Purgatory. A bit like preparing to "split" the story into a philosophical level, and a more spiritual level - that will work in tandem from here in many ways. And it gets harder to grasp things as well :)
The opening lines of this canto worked very well in portraying a sense of nostalgia and loss for what has been left behind, and I think it highlights the difficulty the souls must have in leaving behind the world. Visconti is a good representation of this state of being torn between two worlds, and I think his comments on his wife reflect this. I disagree that he is measured about his wife's new husband. I know family crests are family crests, but the fact that here they are a snake and a cock (Musa's translation) can't help but suggest a sexualized context, and that he uses them does lend a sense of bitterness at what he might consider her infidelity. On a separate note, I must say I find the laziness in Purgatory surprising, and as a reader it's beginning to bog down a little for me--battles that aren't fought (angels & snake), souls who seem to do no work for their own salvation but expect people in the living world to do the work of praying for them--am I the only one who feels this? I would think that if you're in purgatory you'd better WORK to get out. Is this slow-moving narrative a device Dante is using?
Yes I agree on Visconti! The fact that he might be harsher than what it seemed to me with his wife’s husband is very possible. About the snake and the cock … 😂😂 I don’t know, my friend! Yours is an angle that I hadn’t considered before, and I’m not going to dismiss it. The work that Purgatorio souls are supposed to do is visible more in Purgatorio proper - in the cantos from X onwards - rather than here, also because we are still in ante-purgatorio with the “negligent”, who might have a certain spiritual sloth about them. I hope you’re well!!
Angels in the Bible sound pretty terrifying at times. Revelations 4 describes four creatures before the throne, with six wings and eyes all over and 'within.' What is more concerning is the third creature is described to have "a face like a man," but that is the only decryption outside the wings and eyes. Although, they are not said to be angels, explicitly, I am not sure what else they could be.
Byron apparently liked the opening lines--he put this in Canto 3 of his Don Juan: Soft hour, which wakes the wish and melts the heart Of those who sail the seas on the first day When they from their sweet friends are torn apart, Or fills with love the pilgrim on his way As the far bell of vesper makes him start, Seeming to weep the dying day's decay. Is this a fancy which our reason scorns? Ah, surely nothing dies but something mourns. Really good, but Dante is better. Not sure Dante would agree with the sentiment of the last line.
So interesting. And while Dante shortly after has the angel say “Don’t turn back”, therefore classifying this behavior as undesirable, Byron seems to enjoy the deca decadent tone of his lines and bask in his world-weariness, which is a limited approach compared to Dante’s. Thanks for sharing!
Hello, on your advice I have changed to Mandelbaum from Musa for Purgatorio. I am really enjoying it! Do you think Mandelbaum would be better for Inferno too? Also I was looking up the song that is sung. I found a beautiful TH-cam version from Ely Cathedral.. is this the correct song? Lastly, I am not religious but I am enjoying the Divine Comedy so much. I miss a lot of the biblical references, you are helping me understand those a little better. Here is the beautiful singing th-cam.com/video/6oAWeBDsZTU/w-d-xo.html
Wow. So beautiful! Thanks for sharing, this is absolutely the right hymn. And yes, I think Mandelbaum’s translation is a little “better” for Inferno, too, although it’s also a matter of taste : )
The opening of this canto is the most beautiful section so far in Purgatorio for me. It is emotionally alive and captures the tension between moving forwards spiritually as a pilgrim versus regret and nostalgia for a life left behind.
Thanks to you I am noticing the recurring use of music, colour and light now.
I agree--the opening in this one is really beautiful. There is a lot throughout Purgatorio that I don't fully grasp, either historically or metaphorically, but can still find such beauty in the words. It is a strange thing.
@@attention5638 yes it is quite different from Inferno in that respect.
Very beautiful language, especially at the beginning of the canto. Thanks for another great discussion. These are improving my reading experience greatly.
Thank you for watching !
Thank you in countless appreciation.
Thank YOU 🙏🏻
Ha ha ha the Divine Comedy is my "Secondary Bible" as well. Thanks for the great videos! God bless!
You’re so welcome! Thank you for watching and for your interest.
As it turns out I have been watching the Great Courses series "The Cathedral" (24 lectures by Professor Cook) while making my way through "Purgatorio". I learned that one of the recurring images in the sculpture of the famous cathedrals is that of the daily return of Christ into the Christian's life. It sort of mirrors the angels and serpent episode in this canto (this is also suggested by Musa, who references St. Bernard here in his notes). The angels/serpent scene is the image that will stick with me from this canto, especially the apparent indifference of the souls in antepurgatory compared to the anxiousness of the Pilgrim.
Thank you again for your videos!
There a lot of hanging around and passivity in ante purgatory ....I can't help thinking of a long queue to get into an event , it's a sort of nothing space but full of anticipation ...and every so often people burst into song or the event organiser drops by to boost moral and shows them a teaser ....and the shades are hoping to queue jump by having a friend intervene with the organiser.
In another subject I'm so enjoying reading purgatory alongside the Italian .TSEliot said ".The whole study and practice of Dante seems to me to teach that the poet should be the servant of his language, rather than the master of it." . Exactly .
Complexe canto. Few frills and a lot of substance! Good job Tom!👍
Good day, Tom. I've been enjoying your insightful discussion on Canto's 6-8. I'm glad you are pointing out how much Virgil changes in Purgatory; it's something I completely missed. I also didn't know that demons were allowed in Purgatory. It's something I either don't remember or was never told when I attended Catholic school as a kid. It would've been something I'd remember, I think. The significance of the 3 stars (faith, hope, and charity) and how they took the place of the 4 pagan ideals (prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude) in Western man's thinking I found interesting when I read it. Have you read Boris Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago? I think there are many parallels with The Divine Comedy, and aforementioned stars made me think of a conversation Zhivago's Uncle had with a friend of his early in the novel. Uncle Nikolay, a defrocked (Greek Orthodox) priest, whose humanity and thinking had a huge influence on young Yuri Zhivago when he went to live with him after the death of his mother. The following quote by his Uncle to his friend I found fascinating and again, I was reminded of it when I re-read Canto 8:
"What you don't understand is that it is possible to be an atheist, it is possible not to know if God exists or why He should, and yet to believe
that man does not live in a state of nature in history, and that history as we know it now began with Christ, it was founded by Him on
the Gospels.
Now what is history? Its beginning is that of the centuries of systematic work devoted to the solution of the enigma of death, so
that death itself may eventually be overcome.
This is why people write symphonies, and why they discover mathematical infinity and electromagnetic waves. Now, you can't advance in this direction without a certain upsurge of spirit.
You can't make such discoveries without spiritual equipment, and for this, everything necessary has been given us in the Gospels. What is it? Firstly, the love of one's neighbor - the supreme form of living energy. Once it fills the heart of man it has to overflow and spend itself. And secondly, the two concepts which are the main part of the make up of modern man - without them he is inconceivable -the ideas of free personality and of life regarded as sacrifice.- Mind you, all this is still quite new.
There was no history in this sense in the classical world. There you had blood and beastliness and cruelty and pock-marked Caligulas untouched by the suspicion that any man who enslaves others is inevitably second-rate.
There you had the boastful dead eternity of bronze monuments and marble columns. It was not until after the coming of Christ that time and man could breathe freely.
It was not until after Him that men began to live in their posterity and ceased to die in ditches like dogs - instead, they died at home, in history, at the height of the work they devoted to the conquest of death, being themselves dedicated to this aim."
Thank you - such a great quote. Made me want to read the novel (I never have).
@@tomlabooks3263 Doctor Zhivago is an unusual novel. It can't be read like a conventional, straight forward novel, whether from the 19th or 20th century. Each chapter is symbolic like reading a prose poem, where images and events that occur in one are referenced in another one, adding a new layer to the story. The name "Zhivago" means life and Yuri Zhivago's profession is a medical doctor. "Lara," the woman he's in love with means, " water or sea gull." And Zhivago has a mysterious half brother, Yevgraf, who appears whenever Zhivago is in trouble and helps him. He serves as Zhivago's guardian angel. The book is pregnant with Christian symbolism, which I think most Russian's at the time would've caught, if the novel had been published there. As you probably know, Pasternak had it smuggled out of the country to Italy where it was published and immediately translated to English and other languages becoming a best seller. The book was banned in the former Soviet Union until 1987 or 88, I think. His meetings with Lara, are interesting from a Divine Comedy point, because he first sees her in his adolescence, 5 years pass and he sees her as very young man, and it's the third time, about 5 years again, when he is a doctor and she a nurse, that he falls in love with her. And both are married to other people. Dante saw Beatriz only 3 times in his life, Zhivago will see Lara much more, but I found it curious that it was at the third meeting that he realized his love for her. This third meeting happened in February, and the chapter is titled, "The Advent of the Inevitable." His first meeting occurred on a January, the second in December, months between Christmas and Easter. I don't think the dates are arbitrary, nor is much of this beautiful novel, rich in humanity amongst a human tragedy.
Hey, Tom! "Catch up day," for me, here. I like it when the pilgrim breaks the "fourth wall" and addresses the Reader directly. I also like the symbolism of the Four Cardinal Virtues (yes, there are tarot keys: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude (Strength), and Temperance). I want a Visconti Tarot deck, now 🃏🔮🧙♂️ Nice tie in w Ugallino (sp!) from "Inferno" being his cousin. 😎🌄🤓
Hehe a Visconti Tarot deck !! I wonder where we could find one 😉
@@tomlabooks3263 There are still being published 😋
Very interesting - thank you! I especially like the moment when the three "new stars" are becoming the guiding lights for their Journey.. there's so much foreshadowing in this canto I think, both for canto 9 and for the bigger movement of Purgatory. A bit like preparing to "split" the story into a philosophical level, and a more spiritual level - that will work in tandem from here in many ways. And it gets harder to grasp things as well :)
Thank you for watching, Richard. I agree there is a sense of preparation here.
Hope you are having a wonderful July 4th ✨Very nice video, always here to support !! love #RRFam Biglike4
The opening lines of this canto worked very well in portraying a sense of nostalgia and loss for what has been left behind, and I think it highlights the difficulty the souls must have in leaving behind the world. Visconti is a good representation of this state of being torn between two worlds, and I think his comments on his wife reflect this. I disagree that he is measured about his wife's new husband. I know family crests are family crests, but the fact that here they are a snake and a cock (Musa's translation) can't help but suggest a sexualized context, and that he uses them does lend a sense of bitterness at what he might consider her infidelity.
On a separate note, I must say I find the laziness in Purgatory surprising, and as a reader it's beginning to bog down a little for me--battles that aren't fought (angels & snake), souls who seem to do no work for their own salvation but expect people in the living world to do the work of praying for them--am I the only one who feels this? I would think that if you're in purgatory you'd better WORK to get out. Is this slow-moving narrative a device Dante is using?
Yes I agree on Visconti! The fact that he might be harsher than what it seemed to me with his wife’s husband is very possible. About the snake and the cock … 😂😂 I don’t know, my friend! Yours is an angle that I hadn’t considered before, and I’m not going to dismiss it.
The work that Purgatorio souls are supposed to do is visible more in Purgatorio proper - in the cantos from X onwards - rather than here, also because we are still in ante-purgatorio with the “negligent”, who might have a certain spiritual sloth about them. I hope you’re well!!
Angels in the Bible sound pretty terrifying at times. Revelations 4 describes four creatures before the throne, with six wings and eyes all over and 'within.' What is more concerning is the third creature is described to have "a face like a man," but that is the only decryption outside the wings and eyes. Although, they are not said to be angels, explicitly, I am not sure what else they could be.
Revelations has some of the most deeply disturbing images of the Bible! It’s a book that I haven’t had the chance to study properly yet.
Byron apparently liked the opening lines--he put this in Canto 3 of his Don Juan:
Soft hour, which wakes the wish and melts the heart
Of those who sail the seas on the first day
When they from their sweet friends are torn apart,
Or fills with love the pilgrim on his way
As the far bell of vesper makes him start,
Seeming to weep the dying day's decay.
Is this a fancy which our reason scorns?
Ah, surely nothing dies but something mourns.
Really good, but Dante is better. Not sure Dante would agree with the sentiment of the last line.
So interesting. And while Dante shortly after has the angel say “Don’t turn back”, therefore classifying this behavior as undesirable, Byron seems to enjoy the deca decadent tone of his lines and bask in his world-weariness, which is a limited approach compared to Dante’s. Thanks for sharing!
Hello, on your advice I have changed to Mandelbaum from Musa for Purgatorio. I am really enjoying it! Do you think Mandelbaum would be better for Inferno too?
Also I was looking up the song that is sung. I found a beautiful TH-cam version from Ely Cathedral.. is this the correct song?
Lastly, I am not religious but I am enjoying the Divine Comedy so much. I miss a lot of the biblical references, you are helping me understand those a little better.
Here is the beautiful singing
th-cam.com/video/6oAWeBDsZTU/w-d-xo.html
Wow. So beautiful! Thanks for sharing, this is absolutely the right hymn. And yes, I think Mandelbaum’s translation is a little “better” for Inferno, too, although it’s also a matter of taste : )