An important clarification about Matt Fradd’s work: by “podcast” I mean an audio-only podcast, as they used to be called some years ago. I just realized that today this term can be also loosely applied to a youtube channel. That’s why, when in the video I say “Matt used to have a podcast”, that doesn’t include the fact that “Pints with Aquinas” has now evolved into Matt Fradd’s great TH-cam channel by the same title. With my aplogies for the lack of clarity to Matt Fradd 🙏🏻 (link to his channel in the video description)
Hi Tom, thank you so much for this series of lectures on the divine comedy. It has really helped me understand what I am reading and provides information and ideas that I would have missed without your insights to help me along. I am using two translations Mark Musa and Dorothy Sayers. Dorothy Sayers is the surprising translation to me as I know her as a writer of mysteries - who-done-its? However, she does for canto 12 she does the same thing you mentioned Kilpatrick does - each of the terzains follows the acrostic V(U)OM or MAN in English. I also really like her introduction. I think once I finish Purgatory I will go back and re-read her introduction. Thank you again for this tremendous effort you made to help us understand this work!
@@gerriegriffin5735 Thanks for your kind words. Very interesting to hear that, about the Sayers translation. I also love the translation by Mandelbaum. These videos have been a work of love, and it’s actually continuing, as I am now uploading 100 more videos in Italian (with subtitles) under a different playlist.
Hello Tom I have already made some comments, but forgot to thank you for your video. very helpful when I read the cantos. I am so happy I can read in Italian.
I like the concept of Purgatory as aggressive CBT ...and the sewing of the eyes is a powerful image that makes me reflect on the power of advertising , so many images trigger envy ...
Excellent job as always. I enjoyed this canto. Again, the penance for the sin fits the sin. (Those who look at others with envy being unable to see). Hollander notes that in Dante's time, envy was understood as the wish that someone would lose their wealth, rather than jealousy or the desire to posses another's wealth. This makes sense in light of Sapia's confession. Hollander translates "dismalare" as "unsins" and the first three lines read as "We were at the summit of the stair | where the mountain that unsins us as we climb | is for the second time cut back". I like this translations as it is clear to me what is intended. Longfellow uses "shriveth" which means much the same thing, but it is a word that I had to look up the definition. The voices in the air are one point where a commentary is necessary to understand the meaning.
Are you familiar with Jean-Hippolyte Flandrin's 1835 painting of this canto? It's called Le Dante, conduit par Virgile, offre des consolations aux âmes des envieux (Dante, led by Virgil, offers consolations to the souls of the envious), and does a really beautiful, moving job of showing compassion in Dante and Virgil, and sorrow in the souls on the terrace. I love the line where Dante says he won't be there for long in the next life, since he hasn't been envious often! We're often not the best judges of our own sins or merits, even if we're trying to be honest about shortcomings and good character traits.
Hi Tom! You asked our opinion of whether we thought that Dante is using the sun to represent God. At first I did, but now after studying the canto a bit, I’m thinking maybe it literally is the sun, especially given the line that says, “Unless a higher power urge us elsewhere.” Baylor College also puts out great videos on the Cantos. In the latter half of it, the speaker talks about three ways of knowing: corporal vision, intellectual vision, and spiritual vision. The sun here was referenced as a way to know based on our minds. Later in the canto, however, as you also pointed out, a more spiritual vision seems to take place. it is Dante who leads with this type of knowing since Virgil is the Pagan, and lacks this gift. Virgil heard the voices and intellectually knows that they have something to say, but it is Dante who is transformed by them. One last thought, I find it so meaningful, the way the shades are camouflaged with their robes against the rocks of the same color. What a beautiful visual to teach us not to compare and to look at each other as one. This morning I read in, “The Imitation of Christ,” “The one who receives fewer gifts should not be troubled by this, nor take it badly, nor ENVY the more richly blessed, but rather turn to [God] praising [His] Goodness, for so generously, freely, and willingly bestowing [His] gifts without distinguishing among persons. Because all comes from God.” I think of 1 Corinthians 12 and how we all benefit from each other’s gifts. When looked at that way, we should all we thanking God for another’s gifts, because they are for our blessing too. I find it interesting that the very next chapter on spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians 13, talks about the spiritual gift of charity-the pure love of Christ. We can all possess this. As you and Dante have so beautifully pointed out, love is the anecdote to envy. Thomas Aquinas’s definition comes to mind here, “Love is to will the good of another,” which you talked about that too. Thank you for another great video!
Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and rich comment. Agree with you about the sun, that is a great perspective. And the quite from The Imitation of Christ is so perfect to incapsulate the meaning of this canto. In the end, God asks us to do the one thing that our modern society despises the most: to grow up.
I actually enjoyed this canto about Envy more than the ones about Pride, perhaps because the descriptions of their suffering felt more vivid. The blank walls into which the souls seemed to blend, the communal crouching with horribly sewn eyelids created real empathy for their suffering. When Dante rather scoffs at their sin because of course he had the WORST sin, I had a twinge of thinking, "uh oh, here comes that P he lost in the last canto." Regarding your discussion, I have to commend your approach to these. You are often able to stand back to take a broader view of what is happening in the text, and HOW it's happening in a way I don't seem able to do on my own, so I'm grateful for your perspective.
Haha I honestly had a good chuckle at the thought of Dante getting his “P” back because of how he’s bragging with the envious 😂😂 Thank you for your kind words - and remember that for the average Italian reader, Dante’s language is typically even more obscure than what the English translation is to you. Without any false modesty, my comments are 90% a potpourri of various essays by scholars and specialists, and 10% my personal take on this or that detail. But my love for every canto is 100% original!
Thank you for another helpful video! I find much to contemplate in this canto. But as yet I am still trying to get past the idea of sewing shut the eyes of non-sinning falcons. (I do hope this practice is now obsolete, though I find concerning material about it on the web.) At any rate, before reading Dante I had never thought of Envy as anything other than wanting for oneself what someone else has; I had not connected it to the notion of schadenfreude. So interesting to hear about the etymology of "envy" and its relationship to seeing. The part where Virgil seems to slowly pivot to face the sun struck me as something with possibly weighty symbolism. I wonder if the souls with eyes sewed shut can detect light through their eyelids and whether they too would have to take some time to know that they are facing the light. I really appreciate the artwork and book recommendations - thank you again for this project!
Great video, Tom! I too really like this canto, and the whole second Terrace. It's so full of practical insights and useful advice about how to manage this Vice. And Dante is really funny with his comment! There's almost an artistic elegance in how he's professing his Pride, through admittting to almost never being Envious. Though it is understandable in some sense - his poetry is just so extraordinary. Btw. loved the artworks too!
Those stitched eyelids are horrific especially when they weep. The voices in the air are lovely. I like the way Dante always asks if there is an Italian in each group he meets. It makes sense of him running into people from recent political and artistic events.
An important clarification about Matt Fradd’s work: by “podcast” I mean an audio-only podcast, as they used to be called some years ago. I just realized that today this term can be also loosely applied to a youtube channel. That’s why, when in the video I say “Matt used to have a podcast”, that doesn’t include the fact that “Pints with Aquinas” has now evolved into Matt Fradd’s great TH-cam channel by the same title. With my aplogies for the lack of clarity to Matt Fradd 🙏🏻 (link to his channel in the video description)
Hi Tom, thank you so much for this series of lectures on the divine comedy. It has really helped me understand what I am reading and provides information and ideas that I would have missed without your insights to help me along.
I am using two translations Mark Musa and Dorothy Sayers. Dorothy Sayers is the surprising translation to me as I know her as a writer of mysteries - who-done-its?
However, she does for canto 12 she does the same thing you mentioned Kilpatrick does - each of the terzains follows the acrostic V(U)OM or MAN in English. I also really like her introduction. I think once I finish Purgatory I will go back and re-read her introduction.
Thank you again for this tremendous effort you made to help us understand this work!
@@gerriegriffin5735 Thanks for your kind words. Very interesting to hear that, about the Sayers translation. I also love the translation by Mandelbaum.
These videos have been a work of love, and it’s actually continuing, as I am now uploading 100 more videos in Italian (with subtitles) under a different playlist.
Hello Tom I have already made some comments, but forgot to thank you for your video. very helpful when I read the cantos. I am so happy I can read in Italian.
I like the concept of Purgatory as aggressive CBT ...and the sewing of the eyes is a powerful image that makes me reflect on the power of advertising , so many images trigger envy ...
Excellent job as always. I enjoyed this canto. Again, the penance for the sin fits the sin. (Those who look at others with envy being unable to see). Hollander notes that in Dante's time, envy was understood as the wish that someone would lose their wealth, rather than jealousy or the desire to posses another's wealth. This makes sense in light of Sapia's confession. Hollander translates "dismalare" as "unsins" and the first three lines read as "We were at the summit of the stair | where the mountain that unsins us as we climb | is for the second time cut back". I like this translations as it is clear to me what is intended. Longfellow uses "shriveth" which means much the same thing, but it is a word that I had to look up the definition. The voices in the air are one point where a commentary is necessary to understand the meaning.
Thank you 🙏🏻 John. As a non-native English speaker, I find Longfellow’s translation really clunky so I understand that example well.
Are you familiar with Jean-Hippolyte Flandrin's 1835 painting of this canto? It's called Le Dante, conduit par Virgile, offre des consolations aux âmes des envieux (Dante, led by Virgil, offers consolations to the souls of the envious), and does a really beautiful, moving job of showing compassion in Dante and Virgil, and sorrow in the souls on the terrace.
I love the line where Dante says he won't be there for long in the next life, since he hasn't been envious often! We're often not the best judges of our own sins or merits, even if we're trying to be honest about shortcomings and good character traits.
I didn’t know the title but I checked now and yes it’s wonderful. I think I’ll include it in the video for Purgatorio 14! Thank you.
Hi Tom! You asked our opinion of whether we thought that Dante is using the sun to represent God. At first I did, but now after studying the canto a bit, I’m thinking maybe it literally is the sun, especially given the line that says, “Unless a higher power urge us elsewhere.” Baylor College also puts out great videos on the Cantos. In the latter half of it, the speaker talks about three ways of knowing: corporal vision, intellectual vision, and spiritual vision. The sun here was referenced as a way to know based on our minds. Later in the canto, however, as you also pointed out, a more spiritual vision seems to take place. it is Dante who leads with this type of knowing since Virgil is the Pagan, and lacks this gift. Virgil heard the voices and intellectually knows that they have something to say, but it is Dante who is transformed by them. One last thought, I find it so meaningful, the way the shades are camouflaged with their robes against the rocks of the same color. What a beautiful visual to teach us not to compare and to look at each other as one. This morning I read in, “The Imitation of Christ,” “The one who receives fewer gifts should not be troubled by this, nor take it badly, nor ENVY the more richly blessed, but rather turn to [God] praising [His] Goodness, for so generously, freely, and willingly bestowing [His] gifts without distinguishing among persons. Because all comes from God.” I think of 1 Corinthians 12 and how we all benefit from each other’s gifts. When looked at that way, we should all we thanking God for another’s gifts, because they are for our blessing too. I find it interesting that the very next chapter on spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians 13, talks about the spiritual gift of charity-the pure love of Christ. We can all possess this. As you and Dante have so beautifully pointed out, love is the anecdote to envy. Thomas Aquinas’s definition comes to mind here, “Love is to will the good of another,” which you talked about that too. Thank you for another great video!
Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and rich comment. Agree with you about the sun, that is a great perspective. And the quite from The Imitation of Christ is so perfect to incapsulate the meaning of this canto.
In the end, God asks us to do the one thing that our modern society despises the most: to grow up.
I actually enjoyed this canto about Envy more than the ones about Pride, perhaps because the descriptions of their suffering felt more vivid. The blank walls into which the souls seemed to blend, the communal crouching with horribly sewn eyelids created real empathy for their suffering. When Dante rather scoffs at their sin because of course he had the WORST sin, I had a twinge of thinking, "uh oh, here comes that P he lost in the last canto."
Regarding your discussion, I have to commend your approach to these. You are often able to stand back to take a broader view of what is happening in the text, and HOW it's happening in a way I don't seem able to do on my own, so I'm grateful for your perspective.
Haha I honestly had a good chuckle at the thought of Dante getting his “P” back because of how he’s bragging with the envious 😂😂 Thank you for your kind words - and remember that for the average Italian reader, Dante’s language is typically even more obscure than what the English translation is to you. Without any false modesty, my comments are 90% a potpourri of various essays by scholars and specialists, and 10% my personal take on this or that detail. But my love for every canto is 100% original!
Thank you for another helpful video! I find much to contemplate in this canto. But as yet I am still trying to get past the idea of sewing shut the eyes of non-sinning falcons. (I do hope this practice is now obsolete, though I find concerning material about it on the web.) At any rate, before reading Dante I had never thought of Envy as anything other than wanting for oneself what someone else has; I had not connected it to the notion of schadenfreude. So interesting to hear about the etymology of "envy" and its relationship to seeing.
The part where Virgil seems to slowly pivot to face the sun struck me as something with possibly weighty symbolism. I wonder if the souls with eyes sewed shut can detect light through their eyelids and whether they too would have to take some time to know that they are facing the light.
I really appreciate the artwork and book recommendations - thank you again for this project!
I was thinking if I had any questions - but I think you covered everything beautifully!!
Great video, Tom! I too really like this canto, and the whole second Terrace. It's so full of practical insights and useful advice about how to manage this Vice. And Dante is really funny with his comment! There's almost an artistic elegance in how he's professing his Pride, through admittting to almost never being Envious. Though it is understandable in some sense - his poetry is just so extraordinary. Btw. loved the artworks too!
That’s why I love Purgatorio so much, because it’s the most immediately relatable cantica. Thanks Richard! 🙏🏻
Those stitched eyelids are horrific especially when they weep. The voices in the air are lovely. I like the way Dante always asks if there is an Italian in each group he meets. It makes sense of him running into people from recent political and artistic events.
Yes he’s a bit like me when I go to an Italian restaurant in L.A….. “Is there ANY actual Italian in here??” 😂 Usually, there isn’t.
Legend is that those admirals turned into sea merchants. Famous exotic rodent species from the far east were of great demand... ☠👀 😂
😅😅