I’m fortunate to fly for an organization that recognizes the danger of helicopter IIMC. Our H125’s are not only equipped with SAS and autopilots but we get quarterly instrument training with a training pilot that includes routine approaches and holds under the hood and IIMC scenarios. I know this is an expensive training requirement but if it is utilized successfully even one time in actual IIMC it has paid for itself many times over. Fly safe🚁
Such a good call Mover… Being helo ATP rated, I can tell you that you pointed all the issues the helicopter world has to face with IMC. You’ll have a very good time discussing this at the HAI expo. I wish I could be there and have a chat with you. There is so much to say… Thank you for involving in this and all the good things you do for the aviation community. Gralex (former helo navy pilot)
There is no such thing as a stupid question. It is far better to ask, than pretend to know. Keep up the great videos! I appreciate learning from and with you.
True, I have seen them leaving the scenes of winter accidents after weather closed in on them. Maybe they leave it up to the PIC. Probably will not originate flight below mins but many have returned under those conditions.
Mover - good video. The crash down in New Orleans is certainly tragic. I admire how you refuse to judge or speculate about the crash until the results of the investigation are complete. The older I get, the more and more I realize the smartest response id "I don't know". I've seen too many mishaps and/or mistake that have happen when people rush to judgement before all of the facts are know. Take care and fly safe!
Hey Mover. This is Ted that used to race with you in iRacing. You brought up the same questions I had. I've only got simulator time in helis and that with a couple of bucks will get you some coffee. I like what you are asking and would love to hear the answers you are given when you get them. It would seem that high time heli pilots would have the minimums of IFR flight, or at least enough to get them to a safe area. As for the Kobe incident, that was in semi mountainous area, but down here in the flat lands it would seem they could get out of their predicament. I'd love to watch you in the sim under IMC conditions. I would think you'd be able to find clear enough air to get to a safe landing with the amount of instrument time you have. Keep up the great content sir.
I was minutes behind him in the same weather, flying in an R44, headed towards Hammond. Weather between KREG and KHDC was calling something like 1100 clgs and 5+sm vis. As I approached this thick layer towards the north shore I started flying lower and lower to try to stay out of the soup. Thinking it would surely just be a small area to get through after rechecking METARs, I attempted to continue a little further until noting on my altimeter that I needed to be less than 300' in order to have visual on the ground below me. It all happened very fast. The thick foggy haze definitely was mixed-in with smoke from what I assume to have been sugarcane crops burning as I could easily detect the smell. I switched my Foreflight back to Sectional Mode to note nearby towers and obstacles as I began to climb up to 500' into total IMC, noting my current heading, before starting a standard rate right turn in order to turn back. At this altitude I was unable to reach NOLA Appr on both local frequencies. After getting through to BTR Appr, I let them know of my diversion plans to KREG to sit down and figure things out (land and live, if you will). BTR Appr then advised me that they had received a different wx report from Hammond indicating 500' clgs and 1/2sm vis. I had received news of the crash moments after getting airborne into this flight as my phone started to blow up with calls and messages for buddy checks. I didn't know any info other than it was a bad crash on the I-10 bridge, however I've been wondering since that day how much further would I have perhaps attempted to continue in those conditions had I not known someone had already succumbed to it leading to the worst possible results.
As a newly fixed-wing pilot, I’m fascinated by any topic of aviation safety. I’ve had to make those go no-go decisions a few times already and I can tell you “get-there-itis” is real. I plan on getting my instrument rating next year but in the meantime I’m always fighting the urge to go and hope it gets better. I too use a preflight risk assessment matrix to help me make the hard decision. I recommend it.
Just be careful!!! That instrument ticket will kill you too!!! If you are not proficient, and I don't mean the FAA's version of proficient, I mean REALLY well trained and versed in your abilities, your equipment, and your a/c, IMC will kill you!!! I was in training for my instrument ticket back in the 90's when a friend and I were directed into a thunderstorm by ATC, (inadvertantly, he was setting up airliners in a holding pattern as the airport was closed due to convective activity, he just lost track of us). I learned that a pilot such as myself who flies occasionally but stays well above FAA mins has NO business flying in the weather without the proper equipment, LOTS of training, and an a/c capable, (with all the bells and whitles) of making a safe flight!! I'm not putting down an instrument ticket by any means, just be aware of ALL that goes with it :-) Fly safe, have fun, and know your limits!! (Don't learn them the hard way like I did!! Almost payed for it with our lives!!)
I got my FW commercial 38 years ago and I lived by _If there is doubt then there is _*_no_*_ doubt_ so if I thought should I turn back then the answer was yes. Also, make decisions on the ground when you have full brain use just like before take-off you know what actions and direction you will take if the fan stops working on climb out. I wish you all the best with your flying and hope you get much enjoyment from it. Even as a PPL try to be as professional as you can. *Tail winds and CAVOK!*
Well to start with I never said I was an expert! Believe me I’m not! I’m still learning after all these years. Josh was a friend of mine. He and his brother grew up in my neighborhood and were teammates of my son at the local playground and I was their coach. I am so grateful that Mover decided to VLOG this topic to all his followers. Hopefully it will get thru to as many pilots and save someone’s life one day. It happened to me less than a month ago. IIMC and as soon as I was in it, I uttered the words “56 seconds to live, dumb ass!” I 180’d out and landed. You God protects drunks and fools! Fly safe everyone! Lester
I was told that at a flight seminar a few years back. Really didn’t understand the concept of pushing forward into further IMC. As I stated in the opening sentence, I’m not an expert and I’m still learning. What does the Army teach and why. You 64 know your shit! Have a friend that retired from 64s.
That 26 seconds video was very good! I have similar kind of an experience with Piper PA-38 in southern Finland. I was feeling forced to flight with my persuasive dad. Weather was ok at ground, but forecast was at limit and unstable. Shortly after takeoff we reach bottom of the cloud cealing, maybe 1000f above ground. Then I saw more clouds below me and instantly decide to get back to airfield... and then all the visibility in front of us disappear in the clouds. I started turn and look left to keep ground in sight. Notify traffic and safely landed. I was feeling so stupid the get air in the beginning. And I remember how lead heavy was all the movements and decisions I made.
Thanks CW for your words, a graduate of the US Army Aviation Safety Center and AH64 pilot, inadvertent IMC scared me more in Afghanistan than getting shot at down in those valley's and mtn's
Thank you Sir for your personal opinion/ analysis about this tragedy. A very unfortunate accident and my prayers and condolences go out to the his/her family.
Awesome video, Mover! As a Canadian pilot just wrapping up my commercial (CPL), I have to say, that getting my INRAT is a consideration for most, and not a requirement for the CPL. But, for me, the instrument rating is not a check in the box...it is for safety...not just for me, the pilot, and my pax, but for those on the ground, too. If we're safe, everyone's safe. I'm with you on this one, for me, the INRAT means the one time I need it, even if I ever only use it once, is the ONE time that i'll be damn happy I have it...and that is enough:) Great job, and hopefully, even if pilots don't need it flying helos, they'll get the rating anyway, just for that one time, that they'll fly into IMC...just that once, and they'll live!
I fly HEMS at a vfr program. IMC is one the sketchies things that can happen. The majority of my anxiety is pilot dependent. Luckily the service i work at has spent the money on a phenomenal autopilot and full glass cockpit. But those things go out the window when the pilot looses there nerve with imc and start hand flying the thing. Good discussion Mover. Hope you progress into the HEMS world i would love to work with ya!
Mover, great post in relation to Rotor vs Fixed wing IMC flying. As a commercial fixed wing pilot with a private rotor craft rating, I to was surprised at the required equipment needed for a helicopter to be certified for IFR. As a side note I'm currently halfway through the book "Life inside the dead man's curve" by Kevin McDonald. He would be a great candidate for a Monday's with Mover interview.
As a 10,000 hr ATP helicopter pilot I can honestly state that light helicopters are not stable. In the time it takes you to review an instrument approach plate, you can be inverted. And that is a helicopter that is trimmed for level flight. IFR is a two pilot endeavor in a helicopter without an autopilot.
Been a CFII in helicopters for a few years now, I was getting ready to say almost an identical thing here. Just a few instrument lessons and you'd immediately realize why the certification requirements are what they are. In training, in helicopters with no autopilot, we simulate having one with the instructor. The instructor can play as the 'autopilot' with the student turning it 'on and off'. It just isn't feasible to complete all of the procedures and items required for routine IFR flight safely while also maintaining control of a light helicopter.
Couple months ago i had to set down in a gravel parking lot out in the boonies. Was similar conditions to many flights i'd done before, and i think that's what lead me down the path of stupid decisions. What made me set it down was the realization that i'd already made 3 very poor decisions and this one was likely my last opportunity to make a good one. Go around some stuff, sunny on the other side. Go under some stuff, sunny on the other side. Well, this time it wasn't. Got walled in. Slowed it down to about 40, started looking at roads, and this big beautiful parking lot appears.
Nice decision Brian. 👍It can be hard to make a correct one when mindset has already steered you into making wrong ones. I hope you pass on your experience to all who are receptive to your message but not all will be. There will always be the _ha, I'm too good to do something like getting caught in the clag_ but they are the ones who will. Those people (pilots) scared the crap out of me since they could be in the same airspace as I was.
Not a pilot, but back in the late 80’s I lived about 10 miles from Bruceville-Eddy, Texas. Home of the several broadcast towers for the Waco area. Low ceiling conditions. Army helicopter transporting some brass from Fort Hood clipped the guide wires resulting in loss of everyone on board. Highly trained pilot with same results. One would think what you are saying would be in the helicopter flying bible.
As I understood it from a Canadian Air Force pilot that i asked about this years back, part of the problem is actually the weight of the equipment that has to be added (like the SAS). It’s not that it’s necessarily prohibitively expensive to install the necessary systems on the smaller helicopters, its that depending on what the helicopter is being used for, and the elevations in which it is being used, the weight of the additional equipment that the FAA requires can put the helicopter over its max weight limits. This was the case when we were using an AS350 in Pennsylvania to sling heliportable drill rigs onto the sides of mountains. The weight of the rigs meant that equipment that could be installed to make the helicopter IMC capable had to be removed so that the long line mount could be installed. I think that professionally speaking the needs of industrial applications for helicopters have them operating too close to the weight limits for the equipment to be installed in the first place.
Great food for thought, C. W.. When I was studying to become a private pilot, I did so as a musician, who was on the road full-time. This meant that there was a lot of getting checked out with new instructors, approximately every two weeks, as we changed locations. I feel lucky in that regard, because I had a wide variety of instructors, including some super-experienced veterans. So... back in about 1977, (with about 40 hours PIC)I rented a Cessna 172, at Crystal Airport, in Minneapolis to go do some solo practice. Weather (snow) was predicted to come in at about 4pm, so I rented the airplane from 10am to 2pm, and toured the area, landing at various small airports, etc.. At about 1pm, I looked over at Minneapolis, and the cold front had moved in much sooner than expected, partially covering the city. I set out to return immediately, but as I got closer to Crystal Airport, the ceiling got lower and lower. Attempting to stay VFR, I got down to about 1500 feet, then realized that going any lower wasn't going to help, and would put me at risk with some local buildings and antennas. So, I entered the IMC conditions, (total whiteout) turned on the wing-leveler autopilot, and called Minneapolis approach. I told them I was a student pilot, and my predicament, but did not declare an emergency, since I was glued to the instruments, and maintaining controlled flight. They calmly and expertly guided me back to Crystal Airport, with vectors and altitudes, and handed me off to Crystal Airport just as I broke out, with the runway directly in front of me, in the perfect position. No emergency declared, no injuries, no damage, and my instructor was pleased that I didn't panic. The important lesson was that although everything worked out fine, thanks to Minneapolis approach, it might not have worked out so well without them, especially if I had experienced an engine failure, instrument failure, radio failure, etc.. Live and learn! :)
I remember early in my flying days wondering if it would be "worth it" to get my IFR rating. It's a lot of work to get, and almost as much work to maintain. HOWEVER, looking back on it now, I absolutely DO NOT REGRET doing the IFR work. Even though after only a couple of years I decided to let it lapse due to just not really doing any actual IFR flying, it was one of the best things I think I did for myself, even if only doing VFR flying in the future. You gain so much more situational awareness, comfort with ATC, and command of your aircraft's instrumentation. Just because you may not be current on your IFR rating, doesn't mean you've forgotten the skills, and those skills just might save your life in situations like inadvertent flight into IMC. The second best thing I did for myself was do some "upset training", which is essentially some introduction around entry into, and more importantly the exit out of, some "aerobatic-like" maneuvers, such as stall-spin, inverted flight, etc. Bottom line, you never stop training... or learning.
Hey Mover, as always another great video and thank you for the thoughtful discourse you consistently bring to these posts. I am a very low time helicopter pilot but like most I do have my instrument rating. My two cents (which might have me lambasted) about what makes the helicopter very difficult to be IFR worthy is really just this: Helicopters (especially 2-bladed systems like the Robinsons) are inherently unstable. You just can't let go of the cyclic like you can with a fixed wing. Mind you I have never flown a fixed wing yet but when we transition to instruments it takes about 90 seconds to where you can completely ignore your visual, vestibular, and kinesthetic senses to the outside world. And all the simulated training we do with foggles simply cannot prepare you for actual IMC because sunlight cues and other cues leak past the foggles. I know that is definitely oversimplified answer to a very complex question but for me that really seems to be the real difference. As one safety course instructor said to us about this "If you fly into IMC, you're probably going to die" when referring to ships like the R44.
I have worked as a mechanic with HeliSkiing companies in Canada for almost 20 years. One of the best pilots I know was asked by a guest, what do you do if you fly into a cloud. He replied, without hesitation, you don't. When pressed he just kept replying, you don't.
@@josephking6515 not so much..."you don't"... fly into cloud implies you have perfect knowledge about the wx...and that's just not true...you need the instrument rating, 'cause you just may...fly into cloud.
@@aliciamacdonald8149 Flying into cloud or into IMC conditions is something you *choose* to do. It's not like you are flying S&L and suddenly a cloud wraps itself around you machine. I suppose if you have SFA SA then it could happen but poor airmanship is a choice or lack of ability. Any clouds that I attacked when flying VFR I chose to enter under very specific and safe conditions with condition 1 being I was radar controlled so I was separated from IFR and VFR traffic. Any other times as PinC in VFR then I chose to *not* enter IMC. It's really not rocket science. Remember that P P P P P ending up in cloud. Situational Awareness and Airmanship in required IMO. _Get-home-itus_ and over confidence will help you choose the potential Cumulus Granite.
@@josephking6515 really condescending reply, and arrogant...good luck Mr. Perfect, I'm sure you'll never, ever put yourself into a situation where you can't avoid cloud...think...well, mountain flying...but then again, you're perfect.lol
Hey, so here are some of my thoughts as a current RCAF helicopter pilot who has never flown GA: The 'get lower' vs 'climb up' point you mentioned is an interesting one. Our fleet is IFR certified, aircraft and pilots, and our SOP for deteriorating conditions is still to 'get down, slow down, turn around'. Then, either land or climb up. That's something that clashes with the training students get on the fixed wing trainer (the Texan, same as you guys) and we have to beat the 'fixed wing habits' out of them when they get to the rotary course. There's a couple reasons for that. First, our minimum altitude 15 ft above obstacles in day and 50 ft above at night - that gives us a lot of room to play with as far as the "get down" portion goes. If you're forced down to the tactical environment, you have sufficient references to transition to a hover and land if the situation calls for it. Crawling along the treetops looking for a field isn't fun, but it is about as safe as anything else we do. Second, while we're great at IFR on a stable summer day, we're very limited otherwise - GA even more so I suspect. We can't enter icing, and we have no means to detect and avoid convective weather. Basically, that means in the winter I'm never climbing into cloud because I can't risk being caught in icing with no way out. In summer, I'm never climbing into cloud if there's embedded convective activity, which at least up here is often. Third, kind of circling back to point 1, by committing to IFR we are ruling out many possible landing sites. In fixed wing, you have to land at an airport, so whether you go under the clouds for a visual or in/above the cloud for an approach, you're using up roughly the same amount of flight time. In a helicopter you can safely touch down on almost any flat surface. It may be safer (primarily from a fuel perspective) to look for a field and be on the ground in 5 minutes, rather than spending half an hour being vectored around for an ILS somewhere - and immediately committing to IFR eliminates the former option. Caveat: committing to IFR is absolutely in our toolbox. If the clouds are coming down on a stable summer day and we have plenty of fuel, I will absolutely climb up and get a pop-up clearance. Trust me, I'd rather hang out at an airport FBO than some field in the middle of nowhere waiting for the weather to pass. As far as IFR certifications for GA helicopters go: I'm by no means an expert on helicopter design, but I'm sure you'd agree with me that helicopters, even in cruise flight, are much less stable then fixed wing airplanes. The requirement for a SAS almost certainly stems from that - I think I'd want at least a cyclic trim system before I took a helicopter single pilot IFR. Now, whether that is less or more risky than having pilots who've never done IF flying before is something to be discussed. All that being said, I think your thoughts about practice and training are spot on. We can operate safety at low altitude because we practice it all the time, and we're comfortable with it. Whatever the solution is for the GA world, it will require pilots to keep practicing and maintaining their skills.
Fellow Tac Hel guy here. Spot on with your comments. And of course we have the semi annual hours and sequence requirements that help maintain a basic level of skill. I am now flying for commercial aviation as well and have had to fly on the edge single pilot and lots of Night in the Arctic. For Mover’s education, the reason you want the stability augmentation, Attitude control and a basic flight director is that when things go wrong in clouds and you have to fly the helicopter manually it can become dangerous quickly. I flew the old 212 (CH-135 Twin Huey) IFR and had no stability augmentation. In a two crew environment the pilot flying could do nothing else but fly. You were on the controls at all times. Even resetting your course bar or altimeter setting was timed to be done quickly and to get back on the controls. The non flying pilot did EVERYTHING else. Any emergency where you weren’t force to enter the auto or conduct an emergency descent was handle COMPLETELY by the non-flying pilot. I have seen it in the simulator where a pilot was flying without being coupled up, attempting to assist in the emergency, and we departed controlled flight. The only way in IFR the pilot can do anything else other than fly and handle the instruments and related controls right in front of them is with stability augmentation and preferably with some attitude control.
There are 4 tasks to fly in the IFR system: 1) Control of aircraft by reference to flight instruments, 2) Position orientation by IFR navigation means (GPS, Ground Based), 3) Point-to-Point Navigation, and 4) Instrument Departures and Approaches. Note that these get progressively more difficult…HOWEVER…ATC can and will provide abundant help for 2) through 4) in an emergency situation…BUT…the pilot MUST be able to accomplish 1) without help. And THIS is where the problem comes in. Solution: Practice. In VFR operations, ALWAYS maintain a precise course/heading, speed, and altitude…in this way, control of the aircraft flight path by reference to instruments becomes second nature. Solution, Part 2: DO NOT push weather and become an expert on detecting the onset of IMC…such as: low T-D spreads…presence of any layer of clouds (even “FEW”) at altitudes to be flown…and a “foggy” appearance on ground lights ahead, which indicates rain or other precip activity about to be flown into. Solution Part 3: If the worst happens and one flies into cloud, DO NOT slow down-maintaining forward airspeed provides directional stability and slowing down markedly makes the helicopter VERY directionally unstable and practically impossible to control by reference to instruments. FREEZE the power…even removing the hand from collective altogether; FREEZE the pedals in trim and don’t move the feet; and fly with both hands on the cyclic, concentrating ALL attention and effort of simply maintaining altitude by reference to altimeter with AI as supporting instrument. From this comes a stabilized condition, under control. And from that point, either a level slow rate turn can be accomplished to return to visual conditions, or a very slow cyclic climb accomplished to gain height, contact ATC, and arrange for some help with either a) vectors to VMC, or b) some form of instrument approach and landing.
I saw the fixed-wing version of the video and it's chilling indeed. I wandered into IMC a few times as a non-IFR rated pilot, but was able to retain control until the air cleared. Even a few minutes with Foggles during a flight review can give the pilot the skill to simply turn around or recognize the need to land IMMEDIATELY!
i was flying low in a Bell 407 and the weather (clouds) closed up on me. i looked up and saw a blue hole in the clouds and climbed up throught it. Flew on top of clouds for a while and was heading inland where the weather clear up again. i avoid bad weather at all cost now. Try to turn turn back or sit down somewhere. Bob.
This is an outstanding program and all pilots should have a tool like this. Almost all aviation incidents that I have read AIB's and or watched videos from you or Mentour pilot are continuously compounding errors (small things that add up to a major incident).
DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT. I THINK ALL OF WHAT YOU SAID WAS VERY SMART AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN OBVIOUS TO THE FAA, NTSB,AND HELICOPTER INDUSTRY YEARS AGO ! SPOT ON, CW ! CFIAM/A&P JOE COVINO. Lake Havasu City, Arizona.
I understand cost is an issue that is brought up many times for the new technologies, but a life saved is well worth it. The Medical Helicopters in NH and VT same company D.A.R.T Dartmouth Hitchcock have a system I don't know what it's called but it allows them to fly in bad weather conditions. It has tracking that they follow from Lebanon NH to Berlin NH and Manchester NH. I don't know if you reach out to the parent company they probably would tell you what it is. "Dartmouth-Hitchcock (D-H) was the first health system in the nation to develop what's called a low-level IFR (instrument flight rules) en-route structure, gaining FAA approval in 2013." Most of their pilots are former Army and Air Force Rotary wing pilots. Have a Merry Christmas you are an inspiration to many people.
I did some R&D with a company that produced a product to help helicopter pilots through RVE. It combined synthetic vision with sensors to detect obstacles. My research was in the area of the added sensors, where we were looking at LIDAR, MMWR, and short to mid wavelength IR. When I left the project, it looked promising, but quite expensive. So expensive that no private operators would have bought it.
Years ago I was still renting single engine Cessna aircraft from the FBO where I learned to fly. I was also a search and rescue volunteer trained and qualified in the use of ELT locating equipment (before the popularity of UHF ELTs with onboard GPS). We were called out for SARSAT hit on an ELT late one evening. There was no report of a mayday or emergency transponder code, and, at least when first called out, no reports of overdue aircraft. Long story short, we eventually found the aircraft, which appeared to run directly into the side of a mountain, and then slid down a ways before coming to rest about half way up. I got a pretty big shock when I recognized the tail number. I had flown this plane multiple times, as recently as two weeks before this. I didn't know the pilot well, but had met him. He was a new pilot with less than 100 hours PIC. I remember thinking with the darkness, low ceiling, and storms in the area I wouldn't have been flying. We assisted the Sheriff's office in recovering the remains via litter on a long line from their Long Ranger. Once we identified the aircraft the FAA provided us with the VFR flight plan that had been filed. Apparently no flight following had been requested. The aircraft hit the cliff side about a mile off of the the VOR radial they had planned to follow. If they had been exactly on the center of that radial, they would have remained clear of the terrain at that point. If the clouds had been higher, they would have been flying at an altitude that would have put them over the top. Or if there had been clear skies and a moon they may have seen the hill. If they had been flying during the daytime they may have seen the terrain rise into the cloud layer far enough back to turn around or used pilotage to stay closer to the intended path. Turned out it was a trip that the pilot had planned with friends and he didn't want to disappoint his passengers.
I'm an older guy, now finally finishing my CPL so I can get an Instructor's Rating...I am definitely going to pursue an Instrument Rating, but I'm a little reticent from the standpoint of: "I've made it this far, I'm not killing myself for anyone else..." I would use the IR in marginal VFR, because I'd rather be "in the system" when vis is 4 miles in haze here in Southern Ontario. But, I definitely don't want to be out there by myself in hard IMC hand flying anything!
I had 25 hours of instrument training in a 206BIII in the early 80's. Steam gauges sucked. It was not certified as it had no autopilot. I was burning up the end of my VA Training and getting turbine time. I did a lot of flying in H300C variants for the next 4000 hours doing powerline patrol, instructing and fiber optic patrol. Mostly at less than 200' agl. I have been in a lot of sketchy weather situations. Once got into light fog while fiber optic patrolling and found a high tension grid line that was live and it created a tunnel about 50' in diameter from heat dissipation. Like a fool I followed it for several miles, slowly, looking for crossing lines. Fortunately didn't die but never did it again. Got a special VFR out of Chattanooga one day and climbed out on top to find out it was solid overcast in every direction for 30 miles. The only thing I could see was lookout mountain and the clouds closed in behind me. No instruments in a H300C. Made it out of there OK. Never did that again. I've had unforecast weather quickly go south and just landed in a field and waited it out. Being Florida, the weather changes quickly. Once got caught in a bad storm and landed in a horse pasture and was pummeled by hail the size of dimes that covered the skids. I landed once in a field during heavy rain and was nearly struck by lightning, missed me by about 100 yards. My son was born and that was the end of that career. I usually flew between 7 to 9 hours a day. Not worth the risk for very little pay. Most utility and military helicopters have wire strike kits for a reason. I have more near death stories that are unrelated to weather. Fortunately I never bent one. 5 engine failures... not fun. Fly safe, the weather cares not who you are or what your skills may be. Overestimation of equipment or skills will get you killed.
I'm confused. I was a crew chief on a chinook in Viet Nam and I distinctly remember the pilots practicing the air controller talking them in. On course, on glide path. Hooks don't have autopilot or any of the other requirements which are normally found on higher end helicopters. Excuse my ignorance it just seems as if someone is making it harder than it has to be. Stay up on your autorotating. The only time I didn't like flying was that 20 seconds of autorotation after being shot down. Love the channel.
Hi Mover, weather reporting is a weak link in VFR flight planning. Unfortunately making go/no decisions with limited info between reporting stations is going to continue to claim folks. Godspeed to the pilot.
As a former aviation forecaster, I agree. We are getting many more tools now with the GOES-R series of satellites, including much finer scale fog detection as well as LIFR/IFR conditions, but it requires the pilot to become more of an expert customer or Flight Service to do the same on how to use it. And this of course brings the bigger question: Are the aviation weather needs of the GA and smaller commercial users being met?
I am a retired military forecaster. I’ve always been amazed at how little weather civilian pilots get briefed on. If they get it at all. DD-175-1’s saved many lives and incidents.
@T.J. Kong I was always amazed how many GA pilots didn't read the TAF, ever- or when I was doing aviation briefings in AK, how many commercial pilots would "forecast shop" between me and the FSS.
Yes weather is very fluid and the reporting is not consistantly accurate, However if there is any doubt pilots should thourougly preplan diverts and have the mindset to turn back or divert if things worsen. So many crash recreations identify time and time again when a pilot with get there itis wont turn around or divert, and in to many cases they are flying with family or others and it ends tragically. My advice is if you live or are going to fly in unexpected IMC conditions get your IFR or if not practice flying IFR with another pilot in preparation of inadvertant IMC flying.
I'm purely a fixed wing guy, never been in a helicopter as a passenger let alone as a pilot. Also, not an expert, I have about 145 hours, and am instrument rated. Maintaining proficiency as an instrument pilot is something that I find incredibly challenging. Certainly meeting the currency requirements are part of it, but it's not always easy to line up a safety pilot or get time with an instructor to do extra approaches. It sounds like it would be even worse in a helicopter, given lack of suitable equipment. Hanks for the video/discussion,, I'm going to follow the discussion, as I'm sure there will be some useful information for us fixed wing guys.
I'm a local pilot in the Houma area. Prior owner of Superior Flight Academy out of Hammond's Aviation at KHUM and current GOM pilot. I went to flight school with Josh at Guidance Aviation in Baton Rouge. Josh was a good dude and sadly leaves behind a wife and children. Personally, I find this area has a severe issues with pushing weather in rotorcraft. It's almost a normal daily occurrence. Hopefully this tragic accident will make people realize that the job won't go away. Whatever reason you had to fly that day will still be there tomorrow. It's not worth it to push weather.
It is always hard when it is someone you know has the right stuff and yet they do a CFIT or something else you can’t imagine them doing. It is like a kick in the gut that you can never fully resolve.
That reminded me of a pilot I worked with at air Logistics in Patternson LA. It was rain hard and the rain slow down a lot and he came in a Bell 206L landed and he looking like wet mob. Asked him You ok said, yes but I though I was died. It was rain so hard I could not see anything so I just land on Medium of the highway and Waited it out. This happen 32 years ago. I learned alot as a son of helicopter pilot and working with Air Log as Groundman with great pilots of Vietnam War.
When I first saw the news, I looked to see the name of the pilot. Noy that any one's life is more important and it's still a tragedy.. With regard to the "go, no go" decision, my Father-In-Law flew the OH-6 LOACH in Vietnam and Huey's out of Ft. Greely Alaska and was telling me on Christmas day bout a good friend in Vietnam who flew into the side of a mountain and the only recovered the remains a few years ago. The also lost a Huey in Alaska for the same thing that was trying to recover victims of a plane crash. In the end the family told them to stop recovery operations to protect the searchers.
I was also thinking the FAA rules on rotary IFR are creating unsafe situations. If you don't have access to very expensive IFR certified helicopters you certainly can't maintain personal IFR skills and certification.
In talking with my friend who flies in the back of medical helicopters, but is interested in what goes on up from to, at least in the HEMS business, there is another issue with IFR flying. We got talking about some new A/C replacing older aircraft, and I asked about if they were getting IFR rated birds. He said, for them it doesn't matter, because the hospital LZ's would need IFR approaches created and scene landings would be out of the question.
Being an ex military RW pilot. I believe the civil world just doesn’t practice it enough (at all?). I don’t recall a military check flight or categorisation flight that didn’t include an inadvertent IMC practice at the the end of it. Day, night, NVG ETC ETC all ended in an inadvertent IMC. I even remember an instrument proficiency flight that began as an inadvertent IMC penetration. I don’t think the civil world gives it enough attention or enough training!
Good Learning Video. Just like they removed cockpit heirarchy and speaking up for all crew members, there needs to be a program where client pilots dont feel the pressure to complete the mission. Think thats what happened with Kobe's incident, pilot perhaps self induced pressure wanted to complete the mission even though conditions were poor.
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 Your right Stanislav, I could have been a bit more articulate it is a very difficult issue that pilots experience when flying with clients and there is a multitude of things that factor in to fly or not to. But all the factors from external or internal forces that may push a pilot into a dangerous situation should be minimized and regulated but that is in a perfect world.
15 years flying helicopters. This is what happens when you “scud run”. He hit the High tension power lines. Ripped the rotor and transmission right off the airframe. Been saying it for years The FAA needs to change the FARs for class G. It’s 1/2mile vis and clear of clouds now. 1/2 ain’t shit when you’re doing 130kts. I think it should be at least what fixed wing is 1mile/clear of clouds. Also I have a problem with the “special VFR” for departure with helicopters. If the airport is IFR a helicopter should not be able to leave under SVFR it’s just setting you up for a problem. If you’re inbound and the wx drops you can slow down and use the SVFR to come in and land if a suitable location outside the airport boundary is not available to set down. The company I work for has its own minimums. Day 1000/3, night 1500/5 but the caveat is scattered is considered a ceiling by the company at night. Because we know scattered can turn to an broken layer with just a few miles an hour of wind and temperature change. I lot a good friend in GA just a few weeks ago because he made a bad decision and few in shit wx and night.
Scud running is a dangerous thing, and I don't generally disagree with 1 mile as a day minimum for helicopters. However, I think the "speed to see and avoid" principle is under emphasized. That's the thing helicopters can do. If there's scud, a pilot can choose to stop running and walk or crawl. SLOW DOWN! If one regards a visual obstacle as a physical obstacle (Army doctrine) and speed is managed properly (slow WAY down), 1/2 mile is more than enough (day) to see and avoid. That doesn't mean keep pushing toward worsening weather though. Night is a different animal. There you often can't see how close you are to not being able to see. I also completely agree with your company's view on scattered layers. Even when there's FEW005, I figure it's just a squirrel fart from turning into BKN005. o7
I work for a utility one of our 500kv lines was hit when we saw the fault I knew exactly what it was because the weather in that area was low clouds light rain. Sure enough helicopter hit the lines the fault happened when it bridged the phase between two lines as it was falling though the lines no survives.
Have you used a MALA in your military career? Mission Acceptance Launch Authority. A tad more complex scoring than the FRAT, but similar nonetheless. Helicopters tend to follow IFR. I Follow Roads/Railroads/Rivers.
I believe one thing you cannot do in IMC is stop and hover. Don’t think any panel in the world will enable you to do that. Climb and maintain a good airspeed is probably your best bet
Look at the Kobe Bryant accident. There was a situation in which the pilot was instrument qualified, and he was flying the creme-de-la-creme of GA helicopters, but the OPERATOR did not have a certificate allowing IMC operations.....so their pilots spent a lot of time scud-running, and got used to it. Normalization of deviance. Not a great situation. As a fixed-wing guy, and someone who practices instruments all the time, the ability to punch the mic button and get a pop-up IFR clearance has saved the day for me many times. FAA needs to find ways to make this easier for the brothers and sisters who fly helos. Just my $.02.
Enjoying watching your channel, thx. I'm curious about your take on Canada's new fighter jet competition. My guess is that you are aware of the program?. Three jets involved( f-35,f-18 and Gripen E). Canada has dropped the f-18 possibly due a trade dispute with Boeing. Love to hear your opinions given your experience. Possibly a video on the subject, if not done already. Thx
RIP, and sincere condolences to the family. I think you covered it pretty well. How many times can you say access the conditions, your skill level and if your still thinking don't do it?? 8( JMHO --gary
My thoughts as a non-pilot are: yes the helicopter is not certified for IFR, but there should be aspects of training and practice where you use the 6 pack if equipped so you are ready for IIMC if you get stuck. Avoid it if you can, but be ready if it does happen. Just like practicing autorotation's and such it should just be another tool in the toolbox you keep sharp and ready to use. If the helicopter does not have a 6 pack then never fly it when weather is a possibility.
Made some good points the idea that "Ill just go lower, and slower" maybe that kind of risk is okay if it's just you, but when you have passengers who have no understanding like the Kobe Bryant crash wrong kind of thinking. Just because you think you can do it doesn't mean passengers are okay with that kind of risk.
FAA is certainly a contributing factor to the problem of VFR to IFR transitions in rotary aircraft but ultimately the blame falls on training and pilots. IMC is there and happens to every pilot and as such training to handle that situation is paramount. Yes, IMC training should be mandatory but because it’s not doesn’t mean it should be ignored. Good flight schools will have IMC training in their curriculum and stress that you maintain your skills as you stated. My motto is train and prepare to counter the things that can kill you so you can live to tell about it.
I totally agree Mover, if you have a skill and the tools why wouldn’t pilots be encouraged to use these skills to stay safe in bad conditions. The FAA should listen to this and hopefully the NTSB recommends this and it is actually carried out.
I am an instrument rated helicopter pilot, also multi-engine instrument. I would take off in my MD 500 special VFR in weather I would not depart in while flying a CE340A (would depart if weather was below min to return). If you are familiar with the terrain and obstacles, you can safely fly a helicopter pretty low and slow to get to the clear weather.
In the Air Medical field we have the 51 rule. Whether you're in a crew of three or four, if one crew member doesn't feel comfortable with the decision to fly due to weather or other conditions, we don't fly. One crew member has the 51% of the vote and it doesn't matter if the other two or three crew members choose to fly, one crew member can choose not to and the flight will be scrubbed.
Eldon, I flew for a year out of the Perryville, MO. base. Interesting time😏 Came from flying corporate airplanes & helicopters for Anheuser Busch in St. Louis. We had a Bell 412 and 6 jets. Was a bit of a shock going from a 412 to a 206L, and from very little night flying to doing quite a bit with NVG’s. Our base schedule was different than most. We did days Monday-Thursday, and nights Friday-Sunday. Never did get used to the change over. I’m retired now and haven’t flown a helicopter since leaving AirEvac in 2011. I do miss it sometimes, especially when one flies overhead. I’m working part time at the St.Louis Flight Safety in the Embraer Legacy program, which I enjoy. Even get to do a few trips in clients airplanes. 😎
Glad you did this. Very glad to see your interest in Rotor Wing Ops and putting out this info. Between your channel and the Part 121 carriers taking us RW guys I think there will be a greater understanding and respect for us in the RW world. What you may not have considered is the cost. On the Guard side I get to fly expensive choppers with auto pilots and deicing equipment. On the Part 135 side I fly a single engine VFR ship. Can recover in IIMC but the purpose of the helo is to land off airport. The company sees very little reason to have IFR birds as FW craft would be better and cheaper. The VFR minimums are very conservative and I have never been questioned for a WX CXL.
Knew an army CWO pilot years back who flew rotor wing and I believe he told me it was 7 seconds he could leave his hands free of the controls and fly with his knees while dawning his chemical mask. Any longer and he had stop, adjust the aircraft before continuing.
I would like to you to have this conversation with 3 people; 1. Your Apache pilot friend from Afghanistan. 2. Juan Browne (blancolirio) 3. Dan Gryder Bonus points for Lester. Happy holidays!
I've looked up the maximum operating altitude of an R44 as an example and it's quite high. Why don't they climb over the weather? The R44 can operate up to 14000ft. Is it that they purposely avoid climbing through the weather because of it being illegal if I understood correctly? Or they are afraid to get lost into the weather because instrument flying is a perishable skill?
It's illegal to purposely try to punch through the weather since it's not rated for it and a lack of proficiency. A helicopter doesn't have the climb rate of a fixed wing aircraft and as the air got thinner it would decrease even more so I doubt they could find a hole in the clouds and climb through it. I think mover is on the right track and they need to make it easier to get and maintain if they want to see these types of accidents decrease.
fascinating. being an armchair pilot with a few hours in real fixed wing, i had no idea that a helicopter with basic IFR capable equipment was nonetheless precluded from flying in IMC, and thus getting proper and legal training for IMC. while i can see that low capability hardware should preclude passengers for pay type work, it literally makes no sense to add barriers to pilots being able to use those instruments to train legally and fly legally given parity between those instruments, the mission, and the weather.
Mover yes you are correct about the instrumentation between a C172 and a R44 and IFR flight but the single key point between the two aircraft is the C172 is inherently stable vs the R44 (helicopters) are inherently unstable and is very important to have stability augmentation in a helicopter.
I agree but what I’m trying to understand is to what level? The R-44 is obviously stable enough to pass an instrument checkride. It takes your full attention but it’s not impossible. I know plenty of fixed wing aircraft that are just as challenging if not more due to the speeds.
@@CWLemoine I understand your thoughts completely. My time is mostly in helicopters and probably 20 different make and models with varying stability between them but i believe the FAA is throwing a blanket over all helicopters regardless of each helicopters work load under instruments. I train at Flight Safety annually and am a firm believer in stability augmentation when IFR in a heli. Having flown the 407 it is a hot aircraft and it will get a head of you if you are low and especially if you running close to towers it could be hard to avoid in time.
Thanks, Paul. Like I said, it's an open dialogue that I think we should all have. If there's a better way to do it, let's figure it out. If not, then let's work on mitigating these mishaps. A family with three young children is fatherless this Christmas. These mishaps are avoidable.
Just pontificating, but two things came to mind: the need to monitor torque limits (not necessarily unique to helicopters but perhaps more critical) and the criticality of anti-torque (tail rotor) inputs. These are two things that make helicopter ops more challenging and demanding on the pilot versus fixed wing. I say this as a non-pilot vastly more familiar with fixed wing, so I could be way off. The requirement for SAS is meant (I think, in part) to help with the anti-torque. Given your experience, would you say that helicopter pilots are more apt to fall victim to spatial disorientation than fixed wing pilots? This would seem to justify the need for SAS in helicopters versus no requirement for autopilot in fixed wing for IFR.
Once you're through ETL, it's minimal. You just fly the ball like a fixed wing propeller aircraft. As for torque on a turbine, it's basically just a power setting. You're not manipulating it much once in level flight.
I did all of my training in a hughes 269C with only basic instruments. I did my 5 hours of IFR for my commercial in a fixed wing simulator. At least in my area, there is a lack of CFII's. There was only one CFII that I knew of at the time with very limited availability and in a R44 2 hours away. I try to encourage people to look into better equipped and well-organized training programs if they are serious about flying professionally. Part 61 training varies and I wonder how many CFII rotorcraft exist.
There are many. I am one. In order to become a working helicopter pilot without military experience you need an instrument rating to be marketable. Therefore most flight schools have cfii (h). Certainly all part 141 schools have CFIIs
Im currently training to get my PPL in the North East, we have frequent terridle weather up here. Would you recomend any safety cources for fixed wing aircraft
You hit the nail on the head with the issue being cultural. I may have less hours than you but I have been around helicopters a good chunk of my life. Based off my experience the issue is both regulatory & partly derives from a stereotype regarding helicopters. Regulatory speaking the FAA makes it pretty difficult to be proficient with IMC unless you’re in training or working a industry where IMC is frequent. As for the stereotype, if you find yourself in-advert IMC the typical response that I’ve seen is fly lower. The belief being a helicopter can hover so you’re safer lower as you then have a point of reference. I have yet to meet the rotorwing pilot that will rather climb to get away from the ground, even if they’re instrument rated. And that is what I believe is the biggest issue. There seems to be a stigma against climbing out of bad situations. With all that said this is based off my experience with the helicopter community & my low amount hours in the seat. Just like you I want to know what the professionals think regarding this topic.
I am only speaking about Canada around 1995-1996. I got my private license in 1977 and we had zero Instrument training , they wouldn’t even show us how to use the VOR. Then because I was building a home built plane I wanted to become more current on my flying. What I did was get my night rating. In Canada you do not get a night rating with your private license, unless they’ve changed it in the last 20 25 years. At the time in Canada you needed 15 hours of instrument flying for a night rating. The day I was supposed to fly night solo for the first time they change the rules, now you have to have 20 hours of instrument training for Night rating with a private pilot license. So I had to go back up and do another five hours of dual instrument training under the hood. So we started to do advance instrument flying because I was more than profession to fly at night. I share this story just because I think there was a difference between Canadian law and US law with private a pilot license. Now I am 72 and I’ve chose not to fly anymore. The only thing I must’ve had a good training because I flew all those years and never scared myself. I was very careful when it came to the weather. I simply would not go. I only ever held private pilot license with mostly Taildragger flying.
Foggles or a hood are still required to get your PPL today. I got my PPL in less than a month (in November) and I had to do at least the minimum required amount of 3 hours of simulated instrument time.
We go IFR if we have to, but we have an aircraft with tools and whistle to do it (AW139). It is a different story with an Astar or a Bell 407. They are nice machine but not designed to fly IFR. So, it is a difficult subject, aircraft, training, proficiency, it is a very different operation in this case. Now, many pilots push a lot until they get caught, yo have to put a limit somewhere...
Recovery from a crazy attitude is challenging. Compound that with flight below ETL while entering IIMC. Or flight at a hover while going inadvertent. Can you recover from a hover using only your instruments? Cobes pilot couldn't do it. This task is almost impossible. I say almost. How many of us have been there? How many of us would be flying in those conditions? Too much stress for my over tasked brain to process. I choose not to fly. I have done it before. I was PIC and received a medevac mission, non wartime. The weather was clear. I received a very good weather brief. Current observation was winds 20 knots gusting to 40 knots. The UH-1H had a start limitation which involved that gust spread. Do I go and risk twisting the aircraft into a pretzel. I was a new PIC. The patient needed to be ground evacced. My commander told me it was the right decision and that was it. We all make decisions and we live with them or not. If the weather is not so good and you decide to drive on and do the mission, it does not mean the mission can't be scratched or terminated to RTB or some other safe spot (a big field). Decisions.
Most Helo commercial guys have an instrument rating because it's difficult to get a job without one. 35 hours minimum to get the instrument rating. Another problem with helicopters is fuel range. Flying ifr requires alternates often and fuel range is always an issue. Part 135 ifr are so restrictive that fuel load makes it very difficult along with some dumb faa rules. Another factor is helicopters inability to climb above severe weather. In the gulf of Mexico there was a saying "the weather is too bad to go ifr, we'll have to go vfr". The regulations were so restrictive and alternates were few that fuel was always an issue that you just had to go vfr.
With all the great tech (glass) going into light aircraft these days, you'd think a developer may try a simple styled HUD to just give the basics of horizon, airspeed and altitude ? Something like the fold away ones on the 737NG series ? Yes, probably not cost effective on an R22 or R44 but certainly anything turbine powered or anything used for charter/RPT.
Inadvertent flight into IMC doesn’t kill people, the subsequent loss of control or CFIT does! CFIT can be avoided by climbing above Minimum Safe Altitude. However that climb could be the thing that causes a loss of control, particularly in a helicopter. Flying on instruments takes practice and that practice needs to include how to recover from developing loss of control situations. In the airlines, we have programs that cover this but what exists for the PPL holder either fixed wing or rotary? What motivation is there for the average PPL to do such a course?
I’m risk averse, which is sometimes a barrier in my life. But I’ve never been unhappy with decisions to not fly or even turn back. When I was a fresh PPL I turned back on a solo cross country maintenance ferry flight when the weather was a bit average but I realised I wasn’t 100% sure if the hill I was about to fly past was the right one for my planned track (no GPS back then, just a folded up paper map, pencil and my trusty E6B). So I turned back and picked up my instructor (who just happened to by my mum) and she helped me make the trip safely. It was lack of experience and knowledge on my part, the weather was not as bad as I thought. But it was still the right decision on the day.
You know, I always thought that auto stabilization like that for a drone would be a good emergency button for helicopters that would automatically level you out into a hover.
I am wondering if in XPlane with a similar helicopter, I could script some LUA that would trigger, at some point along a route, a sudden fog. This would allow a simulator scenario to practice how to get their bird on the ground and live. With the helicopter cockpit designs that I have seen, most of the non-military ones don't seem to have enough (in my inexpert opinion) "situational awareness" built into the instruments. In particular, it seems to me, that a HUD or reticle (in eye) is particularly valuable in an emergency landing situation. You have limited visibility outside the cockpit and are looking for the ground, and you're at 200 feet and you have to be scanning your instruments and flipping in and out of the cockpit, couldn't that get you killed easily? If you could have all the data you need to know your situation, and also remain aware continuously of the outside world, I think it would be great. OR alternatively, if you had terrain awareness via synthetic vision on all civil aviation helicopters, wouldn't that help you land safe? When I look at the military helicopters, especially the apache, the kiowa warrior, the blackhack, the pave hawk, they all seem to have avionics providing a better set of data for pilot and crew survival in high risk situations. If I'm wrong I'd love to be contradicted. Also I'm curious if anyone thinks, instead of landing, the heli should climb and turn back towards open air. I am sure there must be people who argue over "land in fog, or fly away". Any non-armchair pilots who flew out of fog and lived, but wondered about landing instead wanna chime in? I also have heard Kiowa and Apache pilots talk about being forced to fly helis with a bag on their heads, which makes them use their synthetic vision (helmet eyepiece) to fly. My condolences to the family and friends of the pilot, sorry for your loss.
I'm a former helicopter instrument rating examiner/instructor with 4,500hrs rotary(11,500hrs total). Helicopters are more difficult to fly on instruments than fixed wing aircraft due to their inherent instability issues, generally poorer IFR instruments (most don't have a decent Attitude Indicator, nor ILS, nor VOR) and hence helo pilots generally practice less at IFR training. But another reason that helicopter pilots fly LOWER to regain VMC when they inadvertently enter cloud is because for 5 months of the year Safety Altitude is above the zero degree isotherm (particularly in northern USA, Canada, UK and Europe). It's too cold for a helicopter to stay up there for very long. If you're planning to fly IMC, or happen to inadvertantly enter IMC, the rules say you should climb above Safety Altitude and level at the next correct altitude for your direction of flight. But helicopters generally don't have either engine anti-icing systems or airframe/rotor anti-icing/de-icing. So yes, you've solved the problem of CFIT by climbing, but now your icing problems are just about to start and you may only have minutes before engine failure, or main/tail rotor vibration, or additional weight caused by ice accretion force you back down to earth. Additionally, fuel is frequently reduced in order to maximise a commercial helicopter's load carrying ability. And with limited Radio/Nav aids to perform an 'internal' descent to VMC, you may not have enough fuel to transit to an airfield with a radar approach. Sure, if you enter IMC whilst on a low hover an immediate landing could be safest. But from a high hover, the best option may well be to IMC abort - pull power and transition to forward flight on instruments. Then work out how you're going to get back down. Years ago as a military pilot, whilst flying at 250 feet at night on NVGs, the helicopter pilot's manual stated that on inadvertently entering cloud the best option was not to climb but to remain at 250 feet, settle yourself onto an instrument scan and perform a level 180 degree turn back to where you came from!!
@@CWLemoine Sure, there are always exceptions and I apologise, I shouldn't have generalised about whether an aircraft type was easier or harder to fly. But I'll bet when flying the T-38A you didn't worry about flight below zero degrees in cloud, or not having enough fuel to reach any airport, nevermind one that had an instument approach.
I absolutely worried about fuel in the T-38A and, while we didn't have temp probes, we did have to worry about icing. I've had more emergency fuel diverts in weather in that jet than any other. My point is that more helicopters should be IFR rated, and it's foolish to limit them to only the big helicopters. This is why people lack currency, which is the most important factor.
@@CWLemoine I think the point I'm trying to make is that: VFR weather minima for helicopters, with clear of cloud in sight of surface, almost encourages scud running and flying lower and slower towards poor weather. There is a reluctance of the pilot to IMC abort and climb, perhaps caused by lack of IFR training as you suggest, but also caused by plan continuation bias, peer pressure, aircraft icing limitations, fuel limitations, IFR approach availability. Many of these accidents are caused not by the pilot's inability to fly IFR on instruments or disorientation as they climb; they are CFIT caused by the pilot's reluctance to abort, and continued flight at low level in the attempt to regain VMC. I think the root cause is the pilot's reluctance to admit that they are in IMC and their misguided attempt to continue VFR flight into IMC. And this phenomena seems to affect all pilots regardless of experience, IF capability or currency.
I agree completely. But I think the FAA needs to revisit what constitutes IFR certification of helicopters. I'm not suggesting people fly around in hard IMC, but I think the ability and proficiency to get an IFR clearance when needed would significantly reduce these accidents. A lot of these mishaps have been with CFIIs! Obviously the right answer is to avoid it, but getting into this situation shouldn't be a life or death emergency either.
You’re right about the different mindset in scud running in helos vs airplane but that’s the nature of the beast. You have an aircraft that has wire cutters and very little in the way of altitude mins, WX mins IAW the FARs and they land at off field LZs with no IAP. I can’t shoot an IAP to a road intersection. That’s the flexibility helos offer but it’s also a recipe for scud running. Yep, the FAA needs to modify their stringent Part 27 IFR requirements. The B407 I fly for work is better equipped than most SE piston planes but yet I can’t fly IFR. Risk assessment. Well I’ll be the odd one out here and say they don’t work. If you pulled the RA / brief sheets from military / HEMS crashes, you’d see they’re almost all “low risk.” They’re not a realistic go / no go device. They won’t make the pilot aware of any elements that they don’t already know and won’t make the pilot aware of the unknown; how a pilot will react to a changing environment. In short, a RA is a canned, static process that can never adapt to the fluid environment of helo ops. Only a competent, experienced pilot can do that.
An idea. Reach out the blancolirio channel. Military flight back ground C-130, C-141, T-38...etc. He now is a first officer on a 777. He's got a helicopter pilot (Army) 30+ year, I believe and they would have a fresh look and ideas. Sad to say I am retired Air Force but my back ground is from the aircrew side (Loadmaster). I have a question for you. Awhile back you said you made a mistake flying the chopper that could have been bad. Do you believe the number of hours and flight experiences help you thru that time you were flying? Hope this gives you some more ideas.
I know I shouldn't laugh because it could lead to a very dangerous situation, but I still couldn't help but laugh at your T-38 clip at 8:22. Altimeter and VSI have you essentially level but the attitude indicator and HSI are just spinning off into another dimension, pegged 90 degrees pitch up and the HSI is just going in circles. I can only assume you walked right into maintenance with that video clip and just said "are you kidding me?"
I should add when I saw that crash I was worried about both you and Lester, and then out of nowhere Lester appeared on the news and man was I relieved to hear that comforting voice.
I’m fortunate to fly for an organization that recognizes the danger of helicopter IIMC. Our H125’s are not only equipped with SAS and autopilots but we get quarterly instrument training with a training pilot that includes routine approaches and holds under the hood and IIMC scenarios. I know this is an expensive training requirement but if it is utilized successfully even one time in actual IIMC it has paid for itself many times over. Fly safe🚁
Such a good call Mover… Being helo ATP rated, I can tell you that you pointed all the issues the helicopter world has to face with IMC. You’ll have a very good time discussing this at the HAI expo. I wish I could be there and have a chat with you. There is so much to say…
Thank you for involving in this and all the good things you do for the aviation community.
Gralex (former helo navy pilot)
There is no such thing as a stupid question. It is far better to ask, than pretend to know.
Keep up the great videos! I appreciate learning from and with you.
asking if lifeflight can fly in the middle of a rainstorm with about 30 feet of visibility comes close.
@@kenbrown2808 in Parley’s Canyon (I-80 Utah)… And they do
@@donmcatee45 not where I am. here, if they can't see the helicopter from the flightline, they don't fly.
@@kenbrown2808 was thinking of AirMed back in January 98 trying to fly below minimums in the canyon.
True, I have seen them leaving the scenes of winter accidents after weather closed in on them. Maybe they leave it up to the PIC. Probably will not originate flight below mins but many have returned under those conditions.
Mover - good video. The crash down in New Orleans is certainly tragic. I admire how you refuse to judge or speculate about the crash until the results of the investigation are complete. The older I get, the more and more I realize the smartest response id "I don't know". I've seen too many mishaps and/or mistake that have happen when people rush to judgement before all of the facts are know.
Take care and fly safe!
Hey Mover. This is Ted that used to race with you in iRacing. You brought up the same questions I had. I've only got simulator time in helis and that with a couple of bucks will get you some coffee. I like what you are asking and would love to hear the answers you are given when you get them. It would seem that high time heli pilots would have the minimums of IFR flight, or at least enough to get them to a safe area. As for the Kobe incident, that was in semi mountainous area, but down here in the flat lands it would seem they could get out of their predicament. I'd love to watch you in the sim under IMC conditions. I would think you'd be able to find clear enough air to get to a safe landing with the amount of instrument time you have. Keep up the great content sir.
I was minutes behind him in the same weather, flying in an R44, headed towards Hammond. Weather between KREG and KHDC was calling something like 1100 clgs and 5+sm vis. As I approached this thick layer towards the north shore I started flying lower and lower to try to stay out of the soup. Thinking it would surely just be a small area to get through after rechecking METARs, I attempted to continue a little further until noting on my altimeter that I needed to be less than 300' in order to have visual on the ground below me. It all happened very fast. The thick foggy haze definitely was mixed-in with smoke from what I assume to have been sugarcane crops burning as I could easily detect the smell. I switched my Foreflight back to Sectional Mode to note nearby towers and obstacles as I began to climb up to 500' into total IMC, noting my current heading, before starting a standard rate right turn in order to turn back. At this altitude I was unable to reach NOLA Appr on both local frequencies. After getting through to BTR Appr, I let them know of my diversion plans to KREG to sit down and figure things out (land and live, if you will). BTR Appr then advised me that they had received a different wx report from Hammond indicating 500' clgs and 1/2sm vis. I had received news of the crash moments after getting airborne into this flight as my phone started to blow up with calls and messages for buddy checks. I didn't know any info other than it was a bad crash on the I-10 bridge, however I've been wondering since that day how much further would I have perhaps attempted to continue in those conditions had I not known someone had already succumbed to it leading to the worst possible results.
Glad you made it out
Glad you're back ok dude.
As a newly fixed-wing pilot, I’m fascinated by any topic of aviation safety. I’ve had to make those go no-go decisions a few times already and I can tell you “get-there-itis” is real. I plan on getting my instrument rating next year but in the meantime I’m always fighting the urge to go and hope it gets better. I too use a preflight risk assessment matrix to help me make the hard decision. I recommend it.
Just be careful!!! That instrument ticket will kill you too!!! If you are not proficient, and I don't mean the FAA's version of proficient, I mean REALLY well trained and versed in your abilities, your equipment, and your a/c, IMC will kill you!!! I was in training for my instrument ticket back in the 90's when a friend and I were directed into a thunderstorm by ATC, (inadvertantly, he was setting up airliners in a holding pattern as the airport was closed due to convective activity, he just lost track of us). I learned that a pilot such as myself who flies occasionally but stays well above FAA mins has NO business flying in the weather without the proper equipment, LOTS of training, and an a/c capable, (with all the bells and whitles) of making a safe flight!! I'm not putting down an instrument ticket by any means, just be aware of ALL that goes with it :-) Fly safe, have fun, and know your limits!! (Don't learn them the hard way like I did!! Almost payed for it with our lives!!)
I got my FW commercial 38 years ago and I lived by _If there is doubt then there is _*_no_*_ doubt_ so if I thought should I turn back then the answer was yes. Also, make decisions on the ground when you have full brain use just like before take-off you know what actions and direction you will take if the fan stops working on climb out. I wish you all the best with your flying and hope you get much enjoyment from it. Even as a PPL try to be as professional as you can. *Tail winds and CAVOK!*
Well to start with I never said I was an expert! Believe me I’m not! I’m still learning after all these years. Josh was a friend of mine. He and his brother grew up in my neighborhood and were teammates of my son at the local playground and I was their coach. I am so grateful that Mover decided to VLOG this topic to all his followers. Hopefully it will get thru to as many pilots and save someone’s life one day. It happened to me less than a month ago. IIMC and as soon as I was in it, I uttered the words “56 seconds to live, dumb ass!” I 180’d out and landed. You God protects drunks and fools! Fly safe everyone! Lester
I was told that at a flight seminar a few years back. Really didn’t understand the concept of pushing forward into further IMC. As I stated in the opening sentence, I’m not an expert and I’m still learning. What does the Army teach and why. You 64 know your shit! Have a friend that retired from 64s.
That 26 seconds video was very good! I have similar kind of an experience with Piper PA-38 in southern Finland. I was feeling forced to flight with my persuasive dad. Weather was ok at ground, but forecast was at limit and unstable. Shortly after takeoff we reach bottom of the cloud cealing, maybe 1000f above ground. Then I saw more clouds below me and instantly decide to get back to airfield... and then all the visibility in front of us disappear in the clouds. I started turn and look left to keep ground in sight. Notify traffic and safely landed. I was feeling so stupid the get air in the beginning. And I remember how lead heavy was all the movements and decisions I made.
Thanks CW for your words, a graduate of the US Army Aviation Safety Center and AH64 pilot, inadvertent IMC scared me more in Afghanistan than getting shot at down in those valley's and mtn's
Thank you Sir for your personal opinion/ analysis about this tragedy. A very unfortunate accident and my prayers and condolences go out to the his/her family.
Thank you for your hard work from Japan.
Awesome video, Mover! As a Canadian pilot just wrapping up my commercial (CPL), I have to say, that getting my INRAT is a consideration for most, and not a requirement for the CPL. But, for me, the instrument rating is not a check in the box...it is for safety...not just for me, the pilot, and my pax, but for those on the ground, too. If we're safe, everyone's safe. I'm with you on this one, for me, the INRAT means the one time I need it, even if I ever only use it once, is the ONE time that i'll be damn happy I have it...and that is enough:) Great job, and hopefully, even if pilots don't need it flying helos, they'll get the rating anyway, just for that one time, that they'll fly into IMC...just that once, and they'll live!
I fly HEMS at a vfr program. IMC is one the sketchies things that can happen. The majority of my anxiety is pilot dependent. Luckily the service i work at has spent the money on a phenomenal autopilot and full glass cockpit. But those things go out the window when the pilot looses there nerve with imc and start hand flying the thing. Good discussion Mover. Hope you progress into the HEMS world i would love to work with ya!
Mover, great post in relation to Rotor vs Fixed wing IMC flying. As a commercial fixed wing pilot with a private rotor craft rating, I to was surprised at the required equipment needed for a helicopter to be certified for IFR. As a side note I'm currently halfway through the book "Life inside the dead man's curve" by Kevin McDonald. He would be a great candidate for a Monday's with Mover interview.
As a 10,000 hr ATP helicopter pilot I can honestly state that light helicopters are not stable. In the time it takes you to review an instrument approach plate, you can be inverted. And that is a helicopter that is trimmed for level flight. IFR is a two pilot endeavor in a helicopter without an autopilot.
Been a CFII in helicopters for a few years now, I was getting ready to say almost an identical thing here. Just a few instrument lessons and you'd immediately realize why the certification requirements are what they are. In training, in helicopters with no autopilot, we simulate having one with the instructor. The instructor can play as the 'autopilot' with the student turning it 'on and off'. It just isn't feasible to complete all of the procedures and items required for routine IFR flight safely while also maintaining control of a light helicopter.
Couple months ago i had to set down in a gravel parking lot out in the boonies. Was similar conditions to many flights i'd done before, and i think that's what lead me down the path of stupid decisions. What made me set it down was the realization that i'd already made 3 very poor decisions and this one was likely my last opportunity to make a good one. Go around some stuff, sunny on the other side. Go under some stuff, sunny on the other side. Well, this time it wasn't. Got walled in. Slowed it down to about 40, started looking at roads, and this big beautiful parking lot appears.
Nice decision Brian. 👍It can be hard to make a correct one when mindset has already steered you into making wrong ones. I hope you pass on your experience to all who are receptive to your message but not all will be. There will always be the _ha, I'm too good to do something like getting caught in the clag_ but they are the ones who will. Those people (pilots) scared the crap out of me since they could be in the same airspace as I was.
Not a pilot, but back in the late 80’s I lived about 10 miles from Bruceville-Eddy, Texas. Home of the several broadcast towers for the Waco area. Low ceiling conditions. Army helicopter transporting some brass from Fort Hood clipped the guide wires resulting in loss of everyone on board. Highly trained pilot with same results. One would think what you are saying would be in the helicopter flying bible.
As I understood it from a Canadian Air Force pilot that i asked about this years back, part of the problem is actually the weight of the equipment that has to be added (like the SAS). It’s not that it’s necessarily prohibitively expensive to install the necessary systems on the smaller helicopters, its that depending on what the helicopter is being used for, and the elevations in which it is being used, the weight of the additional equipment that the FAA requires can put the helicopter over its max weight limits. This was the case when we were using an AS350 in Pennsylvania to sling heliportable drill rigs onto the sides of mountains. The weight of the rigs meant that equipment that could be installed to make the helicopter IMC capable had to be removed so that the long line mount could be installed. I think that professionally speaking the needs of industrial applications for helicopters have them operating too close to the weight limits for the equipment to be installed in the first place.
Great food for thought, C. W.. When I was studying to become a private pilot, I did so as a musician, who was on the road full-time. This meant that there was a lot of getting checked out with new instructors, approximately every two weeks, as we changed locations. I feel lucky in that regard, because I had a wide variety of instructors, including some super-experienced veterans. So... back in about 1977, (with about 40 hours PIC)I rented a Cessna 172, at Crystal Airport, in Minneapolis to go do some solo practice. Weather (snow) was predicted to come in at about 4pm, so I rented the airplane from 10am to 2pm, and toured the area, landing at various small airports, etc.. At about 1pm, I looked over at Minneapolis, and the cold front had moved in much sooner than expected, partially covering the city. I set out to return immediately, but as I got closer to Crystal Airport, the ceiling got lower and lower. Attempting to stay VFR, I got down to about 1500 feet, then realized that going any lower wasn't going to help, and would put me at risk with some local buildings and antennas. So, I entered the IMC conditions, (total whiteout) turned on the wing-leveler autopilot, and called Minneapolis approach. I told them I was a student pilot, and my predicament, but did not declare an emergency, since I was glued to the instruments, and maintaining controlled flight. They calmly and expertly guided me back to Crystal Airport, with vectors and altitudes, and handed me off to Crystal Airport just as I broke out, with the runway directly in front of me, in the perfect position. No emergency declared, no injuries, no damage, and my instructor was pleased that I didn't panic. The important lesson was that although everything worked out fine, thanks to Minneapolis approach, it might not have worked out so well without them, especially if I had experienced an engine failure, instrument failure, radio failure, etc.. Live and learn! :)
I remember early in my flying days wondering if it would be "worth it" to get my IFR rating. It's a lot of work to get, and almost as much work to maintain. HOWEVER, looking back on it now, I absolutely DO NOT REGRET doing the IFR work. Even though after only a couple of years I decided to let it lapse due to just not really doing any actual IFR flying, it was one of the best things I think I did for myself, even if only doing VFR flying in the future. You gain so much more situational awareness, comfort with ATC, and command of your aircraft's instrumentation. Just because you may not be current on your IFR rating, doesn't mean you've forgotten the skills, and those skills just might save your life in situations like inadvertent flight into IMC. The second best thing I did for myself was do some "upset training", which is essentially some introduction around entry into, and more importantly the exit out of, some "aerobatic-like" maneuvers, such as stall-spin, inverted flight, etc. Bottom line, you never stop training... or learning.
Hey Mover, as always another great video and thank you for the thoughtful discourse you consistently bring to these posts. I am a very low time helicopter pilot but like most I do have my instrument rating. My two cents (which might have me lambasted) about what makes the helicopter very difficult to be IFR worthy is really just this:
Helicopters (especially 2-bladed systems like the Robinsons) are inherently unstable. You just can't let go of the cyclic like you can with a fixed wing. Mind you I have never flown a fixed wing yet but when we transition to instruments it takes about 90 seconds to where you can completely ignore your visual, vestibular, and kinesthetic senses to the outside world. And all the simulated training we do with foggles simply cannot prepare you for actual IMC because sunlight cues and other cues leak past the foggles.
I know that is definitely oversimplified answer to a very complex question but for me that really seems to be the real difference. As one safety course instructor said to us about this "If you fly into IMC, you're probably going to die" when referring to ships like the R44.
I have worked as a mechanic with HeliSkiing companies in Canada for almost 20 years. One of the best pilots I know was asked by a guest, what do you do if you fly into a cloud. He replied, without hesitation, you don't. When pressed he just kept replying, you don't.
Smart pilot!
@@josephking6515 not so much..."you don't"... fly into cloud implies you have perfect knowledge about the wx...and that's just not true...you need the instrument rating, 'cause you just may...fly into cloud.
@@aliciamacdonald8149 Flying into cloud or into IMC conditions is something you *choose* to do. It's not like you are flying S&L and suddenly a cloud wraps itself around you machine. I suppose if you have SFA SA then it could happen but poor airmanship is a choice or lack of ability. Any clouds that I attacked when flying VFR I chose to enter under very specific and safe conditions with condition 1 being I was radar controlled so I was separated from IFR and VFR traffic. Any other times as PinC in VFR then I chose to *not* enter IMC. It's really not rocket science. Remember that P P P P P ending up in cloud. Situational Awareness and Airmanship in required IMO. _Get-home-itus_ and over confidence will help you choose the potential Cumulus Granite.
@@josephking6515 really condescending reply, and arrogant...good luck Mr. Perfect, I'm sure you'll never, ever put yourself into a situation where you can't avoid cloud...think...well, mountain flying...but then again, you're perfect.lol
Hey, so here are some of my thoughts as a current RCAF helicopter pilot who has never flown GA:
The 'get lower' vs 'climb up' point you mentioned is an interesting one. Our fleet is IFR certified, aircraft and pilots, and our SOP for deteriorating conditions is still to 'get down, slow down, turn around'. Then, either land or climb up. That's something that clashes with the training students get on the fixed wing trainer (the Texan, same as you guys) and we have to beat the 'fixed wing habits' out of them when they get to the rotary course.
There's a couple reasons for that. First, our minimum altitude 15 ft above obstacles in day and 50 ft above at night - that gives us a lot of room to play with as far as the "get down" portion goes. If you're forced down to the tactical environment, you have sufficient references to transition to a hover and land if the situation calls for it. Crawling along the treetops looking for a field isn't fun, but it is about as safe as anything else we do.
Second, while we're great at IFR on a stable summer day, we're very limited otherwise - GA even more so I suspect. We can't enter icing, and we have no means to detect and avoid convective weather. Basically, that means in the winter I'm never climbing into cloud because I can't risk being caught in icing with no way out. In summer, I'm never climbing into cloud if there's embedded convective activity, which at least up here is often.
Third, kind of circling back to point 1, by committing to IFR we are ruling out many possible landing sites. In fixed wing, you have to land at an airport, so whether you go under the clouds for a visual or in/above the cloud for an approach, you're using up roughly the same amount of flight time. In a helicopter you can safely touch down on almost any flat surface. It may be safer (primarily from a fuel perspective) to look for a field and be on the ground in 5 minutes, rather than spending half an hour being vectored around for an ILS somewhere - and immediately committing to IFR eliminates the former option.
Caveat: committing to IFR is absolutely in our toolbox. If the clouds are coming down on a stable summer day and we have plenty of fuel, I will absolutely climb up and get a pop-up clearance. Trust me, I'd rather hang out at an airport FBO than some field in the middle of nowhere waiting for the weather to pass.
As far as IFR certifications for GA helicopters go: I'm by no means an expert on helicopter design, but I'm sure you'd agree with me that helicopters, even in cruise flight, are much less stable then fixed wing airplanes. The requirement for a SAS almost certainly stems from that - I think I'd want at least a cyclic trim system before I took a helicopter single pilot IFR. Now, whether that is less or more risky than having pilots who've never done IF flying before is something to be discussed.
All that being said, I think your thoughts about practice and training are spot on. We can operate safety at low altitude because we practice it all the time, and we're comfortable with it. Whatever the solution is for the GA world, it will require pilots to keep practicing and maintaining their skills.
Fellow Tac Hel guy here. Spot on with your comments. And of course we have the semi annual hours and sequence requirements that help maintain a basic level of skill. I am now flying for commercial aviation as well and have had to fly on the edge single pilot and lots of Night in the Arctic. For Mover’s education, the reason you want the stability augmentation, Attitude control and a basic flight director is that when things go wrong in clouds and you have to fly the helicopter manually it can become dangerous quickly. I flew the old 212 (CH-135 Twin Huey) IFR and had no stability augmentation. In a two crew environment the pilot flying could do nothing else but fly. You were on the controls at all times. Even resetting your course bar or altimeter setting was timed to be done quickly and to get back on the controls. The non flying pilot did EVERYTHING else. Any emergency where you weren’t force to enter the auto or conduct an emergency descent was handle COMPLETELY by the non-flying pilot. I have seen it in the simulator where a pilot was flying without being coupled up, attempting to assist in the emergency, and we departed controlled flight. The only way in IFR the pilot can do anything else other than fly and handle the instruments and related controls right in front of them is with stability augmentation and preferably with some attitude control.
There are 4 tasks to fly in the IFR system: 1) Control of aircraft by reference to flight instruments, 2) Position orientation by IFR navigation means (GPS, Ground Based), 3) Point-to-Point Navigation, and 4) Instrument Departures and Approaches. Note that these get progressively more difficult…HOWEVER…ATC can and will provide abundant help for 2) through 4) in an emergency situation…BUT…the pilot MUST be able to accomplish 1) without help. And THIS is where the problem comes in. Solution: Practice. In VFR operations, ALWAYS maintain a precise course/heading, speed, and altitude…in this way, control of the aircraft flight path by reference to instruments becomes second nature. Solution, Part 2: DO NOT push weather and become an expert on detecting the onset of IMC…such as: low T-D spreads…presence of any layer of clouds (even “FEW”) at altitudes to be flown…and a “foggy” appearance on ground lights ahead, which indicates rain or other precip activity about to be flown into. Solution Part 3: If the worst happens and one flies into cloud, DO NOT slow down-maintaining forward airspeed provides directional stability and slowing down markedly makes the helicopter VERY directionally unstable and practically impossible to control by reference to instruments. FREEZE the power…even removing the hand from collective altogether; FREEZE the pedals in trim and don’t move the feet; and fly with both hands on the cyclic, concentrating ALL attention and effort of simply maintaining altitude by reference to altimeter with AI as supporting instrument. From this comes a stabilized condition, under control. And from that point, either a level slow rate turn can be accomplished to return to visual conditions, or a very slow cyclic climb accomplished to gain height, contact ATC, and arrange for some help with either a) vectors to VMC, or b) some form of instrument approach and landing.
Rules written in blood. Well said
I saw the fixed-wing version of the video and it's chilling indeed. I wandered into IMC a few times as a non-IFR rated pilot, but was able to retain control until the air cleared.
Even a few minutes with Foggles during a flight review can give the pilot the skill to simply turn around or recognize the need to land IMMEDIATELY!
i was flying low in a Bell 407 and the weather (clouds) closed up on me. i looked up and saw a blue hole in the clouds and climbed up throught it. Flew on top of clouds for a while and was heading inland where the weather clear up again. i avoid bad weather at all cost now. Try to turn turn back or sit down somewhere. Bob.
This is an outstanding program and all pilots should have a tool like this. Almost all aviation incidents that I have read AIB's and or watched videos from you or Mentour pilot are continuously compounding errors (small things that add up to a major incident).
DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT. I THINK ALL OF WHAT YOU SAID WAS VERY SMART AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN OBVIOUS TO THE FAA, NTSB,AND HELICOPTER INDUSTRY YEARS AGO ! SPOT ON, CW ! CFIAM/A&P JOE COVINO. Lake Havasu City, Arizona.
Sorry to hear that
I understand cost is an issue that is brought up many times for the new technologies, but a life saved is well worth it. The Medical Helicopters in NH and VT same company D.A.R.T Dartmouth Hitchcock have a system I don't know what it's called but it allows them to fly in bad weather conditions. It has tracking that they follow from Lebanon NH to Berlin NH and Manchester NH. I don't know if you reach out to the parent company they probably would tell you what it is. "Dartmouth-Hitchcock (D-H) was the first health system in the nation to develop what's called a low-level IFR (instrument flight rules) en-route structure, gaining FAA approval in 2013." Most of their pilots are former Army and Air Force Rotary wing pilots. Have a Merry Christmas you are an inspiration to many people.
I did some R&D with a company that produced a product to help helicopter pilots through RVE. It combined synthetic vision with sensors to detect obstacles. My research was in the area of the added sensors, where we were looking at LIDAR, MMWR, and short to mid wavelength IR. When I left the project, it looked promising, but quite expensive. So expensive that no private operators would have bought it.
Years ago I was still renting single engine Cessna aircraft from the FBO where I learned to fly. I was also a search and rescue volunteer trained and qualified in the use of ELT locating equipment (before the popularity of UHF ELTs with onboard GPS). We were called out for SARSAT hit on an ELT late one evening. There was no report of a mayday or emergency transponder code, and, at least when first called out, no reports of overdue aircraft. Long story short, we eventually found the aircraft, which appeared to run directly into the side of a mountain, and then slid down a ways before coming to rest about half way up. I got a pretty big shock when I recognized the tail number. I had flown this plane multiple times, as recently as two weeks before this. I didn't know the pilot well, but had met him. He was a new pilot with less than 100 hours PIC. I remember thinking with the darkness, low ceiling, and storms in the area I wouldn't have been flying. We assisted the Sheriff's office in recovering the remains via litter on a long line from their Long Ranger. Once we identified the aircraft the FAA provided us with the VFR flight plan that had been filed. Apparently no flight following had been requested. The aircraft hit the cliff side about a mile off of the the VOR radial they had planned to follow. If they had been exactly on the center of that radial, they would have remained clear of the terrain at that point. If the clouds had been higher, they would have been flying at an altitude that would have put them over the top. Or if there had been clear skies and a moon they may have seen the hill. If they had been flying during the daytime they may have seen the terrain rise into the cloud layer far enough back to turn around or used pilotage to stay closer to the intended path. Turned out it was a trip that the pilot had planned with friends and he didn't want to disappoint his passengers.
I'm an older guy, now finally finishing my CPL so I can get an Instructor's Rating...I am definitely going to pursue an Instrument Rating, but I'm a little reticent from the standpoint of: "I've made it this far, I'm not killing myself for anyone else..."
I would use the IR in marginal VFR, because I'd rather be "in the system" when vis is 4 miles in haze here in Southern Ontario. But, I definitely don't want to be out there by myself in hard IMC hand flying anything!
Love your videos Mover!!
Great video, I was on the spillway westbound heading to Gonzalez when it happened, terrible accident.
I had 25 hours of instrument training in a 206BIII in the early 80's. Steam gauges sucked. It was not certified as it had no autopilot. I was burning up the end of my VA Training and getting turbine time. I did a lot of flying in H300C variants for the next 4000 hours doing powerline patrol, instructing and fiber optic patrol. Mostly at less than 200' agl. I have been in a lot of sketchy weather situations. Once got into light fog while fiber optic patrolling and found a high tension grid line that was live and it created a tunnel about 50' in diameter from heat dissipation. Like a fool I followed it for several miles, slowly, looking for crossing lines. Fortunately didn't die but never did it again. Got a special VFR out of Chattanooga one day and climbed out on top to find out it was solid overcast in every direction for 30 miles. The only thing I could see was lookout mountain and the clouds closed in behind me. No instruments in a H300C. Made it out of there OK. Never did that again.
I've had unforecast weather quickly go south and just landed in a field and waited it out. Being Florida, the weather changes quickly. Once got caught in a bad storm and landed in a horse pasture and was pummeled by hail the size of dimes that covered the skids. I landed once in a field during heavy rain and was nearly struck by lightning, missed me by about 100 yards. My son was born and that was the end of that career. I usually flew between 7 to 9 hours a day. Not worth the risk for very little pay. Most utility and military helicopters have wire strike kits for a reason. I have more near death stories that are unrelated to weather. Fortunately I never bent one. 5 engine failures... not fun. Fly safe, the weather cares not who you are or what your skills may be. Overestimation of equipment or skills will get you killed.
I'm confused. I was a crew chief on a chinook in Viet Nam and I distinctly remember the pilots practicing the air controller talking them in. On course, on glide path. Hooks don't have autopilot or any of the other requirements which are normally found on higher end helicopters. Excuse my ignorance it just seems as if someone is making it harder than it has to be. Stay up on your autorotating. The only time I didn't like flying was that 20 seconds of autorotation after being shot down. Love the channel.
Hi Mover, weather reporting is a weak link in VFR flight planning. Unfortunately making go/no decisions with limited info between reporting stations is going to continue to claim folks. Godspeed to the pilot.
Good point!
As a former aviation forecaster, I agree. We are getting many more tools now with the GOES-R series of satellites, including much finer scale fog detection as well as LIFR/IFR conditions, but it requires the pilot to become more of an expert customer or Flight Service to do the same on how to use it. And this of course brings the bigger question: Are the aviation weather needs of the GA and smaller commercial users being met?
I am a retired military forecaster. I’ve always been amazed at how little weather civilian pilots get briefed on. If they get it at all. DD-175-1’s saved many lives and incidents.
@T.J. Kong I was always amazed how many GA pilots didn't read the TAF, ever- or when I was doing aviation briefings in AK, how many commercial pilots would "forecast shop" between me and the FSS.
Yes weather is very fluid and the reporting is not consistantly accurate, However if there is any doubt pilots should thourougly preplan diverts and have the mindset to turn back or divert if things worsen. So many crash recreations identify time and time again when a pilot with get there itis wont turn around or divert, and in to many cases they are flying with family or others and it ends tragically. My advice is if you live or are going to fly in unexpected IMC conditions get your IFR or if not practice flying IFR with another pilot in preparation of inadvertant IMC flying.
Your video is very clear and lit well.
I'm purely a fixed wing guy, never been in a helicopter as a passenger let alone as a pilot. Also, not an expert, I have about 145 hours, and am instrument rated. Maintaining proficiency as an instrument pilot is something that I find incredibly challenging. Certainly meeting the currency requirements are part of it, but it's not always easy to line up a safety pilot or get time with an instructor to do extra approaches.
It sounds like it would be even worse in a helicopter, given lack of suitable equipment.
Hanks for the video/discussion,, I'm going to follow the discussion, as I'm sure there will be some useful information for us fixed wing guys.
I'm a local pilot in the Houma area. Prior owner of Superior Flight Academy out of Hammond's Aviation at KHUM and current GOM pilot. I went to flight school with Josh at Guidance Aviation in Baton Rouge. Josh was a good dude and sadly leaves behind a wife and children. Personally, I find this area has a severe issues with pushing weather in rotorcraft. It's almost a normal daily occurrence. Hopefully this tragic accident will make people realize that the job won't go away. Whatever reason you had to fly that day will still be there tomorrow. It's not worth it to push weather.
It is always hard when it is someone you know has the right stuff and yet they do a CFIT or something else you can’t imagine them doing. It is like a kick in the gut that you can never fully resolve.
Good Advent Merry Christmas 🕊🎄😻🕊
That reminded me of a pilot I worked with at air Logistics in Patternson LA. It was rain hard and the rain slow down a lot and he came in a Bell 206L landed and he looking like wet mob. Asked him You ok said, yes but I though I was died. It was rain so hard I could not see anything so I just land on Medium of the highway and Waited it out. This happen 32 years ago. I learned alot as a son of helicopter pilot and working with Air Log as Groundman with great pilots of Vietnam War.
When I first saw the news, I looked to see the name of the pilot. Noy that any one's life is more important and it's still a tragedy.. With regard to the "go, no go" decision, my Father-In-Law flew the OH-6 LOACH in Vietnam and Huey's out of Ft. Greely Alaska and was telling me on Christmas day bout a good friend in Vietnam who flew into the side of a mountain and the only recovered the remains a few years ago. The also lost a Huey in Alaska for the same thing that was trying to recover victims of a plane crash. In the end the family told them to stop recovery operations to protect the searchers.
I was also thinking the FAA rules on rotary IFR are creating unsafe situations. If you don't have access to very expensive IFR certified helicopters you certainly can't maintain personal IFR skills and certification.
In talking with my friend who flies in the back of medical helicopters, but is interested in what goes on up from to, at least in the HEMS business, there is another issue with IFR flying. We got talking about some new A/C replacing older aircraft, and I asked about if they were getting IFR rated birds. He said, for them it doesn't matter, because the hospital LZ's would need IFR approaches created and scene landings would be out of the question.
Being an ex military RW pilot. I believe the civil world just doesn’t practice it enough (at all?). I don’t recall a military check flight or categorisation flight that didn’t include an inadvertent IMC practice at the the end of it. Day, night, NVG ETC ETC all ended in an inadvertent IMC. I even remember an instrument proficiency flight that began as an inadvertent IMC penetration. I don’t think the civil world gives it enough attention or enough training!
Good Learning Video. Just like they removed cockpit heirarchy and speaking up for all crew members, there needs to be a program where client pilots dont feel the pressure to complete the mission. Think thats what happened with Kobe's incident, pilot perhaps self induced pressure wanted to complete the mission even though conditions were poor.
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 Your right Stanislav, I could have been a bit more articulate it is a very difficult issue that pilots experience when flying with clients and there is a multitude of things that factor in to fly or not to. But all the factors from external or internal forces that may push a pilot into a dangerous situation should be minimized and regulated but that is in a perfect world.
15 years flying helicopters. This is what happens when you “scud run”. He hit the High tension power lines. Ripped the rotor and transmission right off the airframe. Been saying it for years The FAA needs to change the FARs for class G. It’s 1/2mile vis and clear of clouds now. 1/2 ain’t shit when you’re doing 130kts. I think it should be at least what fixed wing is 1mile/clear of clouds. Also I have a problem with the “special VFR” for departure with helicopters. If the airport is IFR a helicopter should not be able to leave under SVFR it’s just setting you up for a problem. If you’re inbound and the wx drops you can slow down and use the SVFR to come in and land if a suitable location outside the airport boundary is not available to set down. The company I work for has its own minimums. Day 1000/3, night 1500/5 but the caveat is scattered is considered a ceiling by the company at night. Because we know scattered can turn to an broken layer with just a few miles an hour of wind and temperature change. I lot a good friend in GA just a few weeks ago because he made a bad decision and few in shit wx and night.
Scud running is a dangerous thing, and I don't generally disagree with 1 mile as a day minimum for helicopters. However, I think the "speed to see and avoid" principle is under emphasized. That's the thing helicopters can do. If there's scud, a pilot can choose to stop running and walk or crawl. SLOW DOWN! If one regards a visual obstacle as a physical obstacle (Army doctrine) and speed is managed properly (slow WAY down), 1/2 mile is more than enough (day) to see and avoid. That doesn't mean keep pushing toward worsening weather though. Night is a different animal. There you often can't see how close you are to not being able to see. I also completely agree with your company's view on scattered layers. Even when there's FEW005, I figure it's just a squirrel fart from turning into BKN005. o7
I work for a utility one of our 500kv lines was hit when we saw the fault I knew exactly what it was because the weather in that area was low clouds light rain. Sure enough helicopter hit the lines the fault happened when it bridged the phase between two lines as it was falling though the lines no survives.
Have you used a MALA in your military career? Mission Acceptance Launch Authority. A tad more complex scoring than the FRAT, but similar nonetheless.
Helicopters tend to follow IFR. I Follow Roads/Railroads/Rivers.
I believe one thing you cannot do in IMC is stop and hover. Don’t think any panel in the world will enable you to do that. Climb and maintain a good airspeed is probably your best bet
Look at the Kobe Bryant accident. There was a situation in which the pilot was instrument qualified, and he was flying the creme-de-la-creme of GA helicopters, but the OPERATOR did not have a certificate allowing IMC operations.....so their pilots spent a lot of time scud-running, and got used to it. Normalization of deviance. Not a great situation. As a fixed-wing guy, and someone who practices instruments all the time, the ability to punch the mic button and get a pop-up IFR clearance has saved the day for me many times. FAA needs to find ways to make this easier for the brothers and sisters who fly helos. Just my $.02.
Enjoying watching your channel, thx.
I'm curious about your take on Canada's new fighter jet competition. My guess is that you are aware of the program?.
Three jets involved( f-35,f-18 and Gripen E). Canada has dropped the f-18 possibly due a trade dispute with Boeing.
Love to hear your opinions given your experience.
Possibly a video on the subject, if not done already. Thx
So sad to hear about the crash C.W. I served in Army Aviation (Medevac) for most of my 11 years of service. IMC ( when you filed VFR) is no fun.
nice analysis
RIP, and sincere condolences to the family. I think you covered it pretty well. How many times can you say access the conditions, your skill level and if your still thinking don't do it?? 8( JMHO --gary
My thoughts as a non-pilot are: yes the helicopter is not certified for IFR, but there should be aspects of training and practice where you use the 6 pack if equipped so you are ready for IIMC if you get stuck. Avoid it if you can, but be ready if it does happen. Just like practicing autorotation's and such it should just be another tool in the toolbox you keep sharp and ready to use. If the helicopter does not have a 6 pack then never fly it when weather is a possibility.
Made some good points the idea that "Ill just go lower, and slower" maybe that kind of risk is okay if it's just you, but when you have passengers who have no understanding like the Kobe Bryant crash wrong kind of thinking. Just because you think you can do it doesn't mean passengers are okay with that kind of risk.
Have a helicopter instrument rating - no longer fly helicopters - was unaware of helicopter IFR restrictions/conditions - thanks for the information
FAA is certainly a contributing factor to the problem of VFR to IFR transitions in rotary aircraft but ultimately the blame falls on training and pilots. IMC is there and happens to every pilot and as such training to handle that situation is paramount. Yes, IMC training should be mandatory but because it’s not doesn’t mean it should be ignored. Good flight schools will have IMC training in their curriculum and stress that you maintain your skills as you stated. My motto is train and prepare to counter the things that can kill you so you can live to tell about it.
I totally agree Mover, if you have a skill and the tools why wouldn’t pilots be encouraged to use these skills to stay safe in bad conditions. The FAA should listen to this and hopefully the NTSB recommends this and it is actually carried out.
I am an instrument rated helicopter pilot, also multi-engine instrument. I would take off in my MD 500 special VFR in weather I would not depart in while flying a CE340A (would depart if weather was below min to return). If you are familiar with the terrain and obstacles, you can safely fly a helicopter pretty low and slow to get to the clear weather.
In the Air Medical field we have the 51 rule. Whether you're in a crew of three or four, if one crew member doesn't feel comfortable with the decision to fly due to weather or other conditions, we don't fly. One crew member has the 51% of the vote and it doesn't matter if the other two or three crew members choose to fly, one crew member can choose not to and the flight will be scrubbed.
Do you fly for AirEvac? I flew for them for a year, and always appreciated the 51 rule. Never had to use it though. 😏
@@johncox4273 Yes, I flew with Air Evac for a few years out of Texas. I only remember one time when we didn't fly using the 51 rule.
Eldon,
I flew for a year out of the Perryville, MO. base. Interesting time😏 Came from flying corporate airplanes & helicopters for Anheuser Busch in St. Louis. We had a Bell 412 and 6 jets. Was a bit of a shock going from a 412 to a 206L, and from very little night flying to doing quite a bit with NVG’s. Our base schedule was different than most. We did days Monday-Thursday, and nights Friday-Sunday. Never did get used to the change over.
I’m retired now and haven’t flown a helicopter since leaving AirEvac in 2011. I do miss it sometimes, especially when one flies overhead. I’m working part time at the St.Louis Flight Safety in the Embraer Legacy program, which I enjoy. Even get to do a few trips in clients airplanes. 😎
Hope to meet you in person in March.
Glad you did this. Very glad to see your interest in Rotor Wing Ops and putting out this info. Between your channel and the Part 121 carriers taking us RW guys I think there will be a greater understanding and respect for us in the RW world.
What you may not have considered is the cost. On the Guard side I get to fly expensive choppers with auto pilots and deicing equipment. On the Part 135 side I fly a single engine VFR ship. Can recover in IIMC but the purpose of the helo is to land off airport. The company sees very little reason to have IFR birds as FW craft would be better and cheaper. The VFR minimums are very conservative and I have never been questioned for a WX CXL.
The video that you referring to is “178 seconds to live!” For fixed wing.
Do military helo pilots have to go through instrument rating?
Knew an army CWO pilot years back who flew rotor wing and I believe he told me it was 7 seconds he could leave his hands free of the controls and fly with his knees while dawning his chemical mask. Any longer and he had stop, adjust the aircraft before continuing.
Would you consider doing a video on the Kobe crash? Would love to get your take on the NTSB if it’s been released (I think it has been).
I would like to you to have this conversation with 3 people;
1. Your Apache pilot friend from Afghanistan.
2. Juan Browne (blancolirio)
3. Dan Gryder
Bonus points for Lester.
Happy holidays!
I've looked up the maximum operating altitude of an R44 as an example and it's quite high. Why don't they climb over the weather? The R44 can operate up to 14000ft. Is it that they purposely avoid climbing through the weather because of it being illegal if I understood correctly? Or they are afraid to get lost into the weather because instrument flying is a perishable skill?
It's illegal to purposely try to punch through the weather since it's not rated for it and a lack of proficiency. A helicopter doesn't have the climb rate of a fixed wing aircraft and as the air got thinner it would decrease even more so I doubt they could find a hole in the clouds and climb through it.
I think mover is on the right track and they need to make it easier to get and maintain if they want to see these types of accidents decrease.
Informative. I never knew that most light helicopters were not FAA instrument certified.
fascinating. being an armchair pilot with a few hours in real fixed wing, i had no idea that a helicopter with basic IFR capable equipment was nonetheless precluded from flying in IMC, and thus getting proper and legal training for IMC. while i can see that low capability hardware should preclude passengers for pay type work, it literally makes no sense to add barriers to pilots being able to use those instruments to train legally and fly legally given parity between those instruments, the mission, and the weather.
Mover yes you are correct about the instrumentation between a C172 and a R44 and IFR flight but the single key point between the two aircraft is the C172 is inherently stable vs the R44 (helicopters) are inherently unstable and is very important to have stability augmentation in a helicopter.
I agree but what I’m trying to understand is to what level? The R-44 is obviously stable enough to pass an instrument checkride. It takes your full attention but it’s not impossible. I know plenty of fixed wing aircraft that are just as challenging if not more due to the speeds.
@@CWLemoine I understand your thoughts completely. My time is mostly in helicopters and probably 20 different make and models with varying stability between them but i believe the FAA is throwing a blanket over all helicopters regardless of each helicopters work load under instruments. I train at Flight Safety annually and am a firm believer in stability augmentation when IFR in a heli. Having flown the 407 it is a hot aircraft and it will get a head of you if you are low and especially if you running close to towers it could be hard to avoid in time.
Thanks, Paul. Like I said, it's an open dialogue that I think we should all have. If there's a better way to do it, let's figure it out. If not, then let's work on mitigating these mishaps. A family with three young children is fatherless this Christmas. These mishaps are avoidable.
Just pontificating, but two things came to mind: the need to monitor torque limits (not necessarily unique to helicopters but perhaps more critical) and the criticality of anti-torque (tail rotor) inputs. These are two things that make helicopter ops more challenging and demanding on the pilot versus fixed wing. I say this as a non-pilot vastly more familiar with fixed wing, so I could be way off. The requirement for SAS is meant (I think, in part) to help with the anti-torque. Given your experience, would you say that helicopter pilots are more apt to fall victim to spatial disorientation than fixed wing pilots? This would seem to justify the need for SAS in helicopters versus no requirement for autopilot in fixed wing for IFR.
Once you're through ETL, it's minimal. You just fly the ball like a fixed wing propeller aircraft. As for torque on a turbine, it's basically just a power setting. You're not manipulating it much once in level flight.
Great info.
I did all of my training in a hughes 269C with only basic instruments. I did my 5 hours of IFR for my commercial in a fixed wing simulator. At least in my area, there is a lack of CFII's. There was only one CFII that I knew of at the time with very limited availability and in a R44 2 hours away. I try to encourage people to look into better equipped and well-organized training programs if they are serious about flying professionally. Part 61 training varies and I wonder how many CFII rotorcraft exist.
There are many. I am one.
In order to become a working helicopter pilot without military experience you need an instrument rating to be marketable. Therefore most flight schools have cfii (h). Certainly all part 141 schools have CFIIs
Interesting topic! I knew none of this :(
Im currently training to get my PPL in the North East, we have frequent terridle weather up here. Would you recomend any safety cources for fixed wing aircraft
Just put an hourglass on the dashboard of the helicopter with a reference on upward
You hit the nail on the head with the issue being cultural. I may have less hours than you but I have been around helicopters a good chunk of my life.
Based off my experience the issue is both regulatory & partly derives from a stereotype regarding helicopters. Regulatory speaking the FAA makes it pretty difficult to be proficient with IMC unless you’re in training or working a industry where IMC is frequent.
As for the stereotype, if you find yourself in-advert IMC the typical response that I’ve seen is fly lower. The belief being a helicopter can hover so you’re safer lower as you then have a point of reference. I have yet to meet the rotorwing pilot that will rather climb to get away from the ground, even if they’re instrument rated. And that is what I believe is the biggest issue. There seems to be a stigma against climbing out of bad situations.
With all that said this is based off my experience with the helicopter community & my low amount hours in the seat. Just like you I want to know what the professionals think regarding this topic.
I am only speaking about Canada around 1995-1996. I got my private license in 1977 and we had zero Instrument training , they wouldn’t even show us how to use the VOR. Then because I was building a home built plane I wanted to become more current on my flying. What I did was get my night rating. In Canada you do not get a night rating with your private license, unless they’ve changed it in the last 20 25 years. At the time in Canada you needed 15 hours of instrument flying for a night rating. The day I was supposed to fly night solo for the first time they change the rules, now you have to have 20 hours of instrument training for Night rating with a private pilot license. So I had to go back up and do another five hours of dual instrument training under the hood. So we started to do advance instrument flying because I was more than profession to fly at night. I share this story just because I think there was a difference between Canadian law and US law with private a pilot license. Now I am 72 and I’ve chose not to fly anymore. The only thing I must’ve had a good training because I flew all those years and never scared myself. I was very careful when it came to the weather. I simply would not go. I only ever held private pilot license with mostly Taildragger flying.
Foggles or a hood are still required to get your PPL today. I got my PPL in less than a month (in November) and I had to do at least the minimum required amount of 3 hours of simulated instrument time.
In a helicopter?
@@CWLemoine My apologies, in a fixed-wing.
We go IFR if we have to, but we have an aircraft with tools and whistle to do it (AW139). It is a different story with an Astar or a Bell 407. They are nice machine but not designed to fly IFR. So, it is a difficult subject, aircraft, training, proficiency, it is a very different operation in this case. Now, many pilots push a lot until they get caught, yo have to put a limit somewhere...
Recovery from a crazy attitude is challenging. Compound that with flight below ETL while entering IIMC. Or flight at a hover while going inadvertent. Can you recover from a hover using only your instruments? Cobes pilot couldn't do it. This task is almost impossible. I say almost. How many of us have been there? How many of us would be flying in those conditions? Too much stress for my over tasked brain to process. I choose not to fly. I have done it before. I was PIC and received a medevac mission, non wartime. The weather was clear. I received a very good weather brief. Current observation was winds 20 knots gusting to 40 knots. The UH-1H had a start limitation which involved that gust spread. Do I go and risk twisting the aircraft into a pretzel. I was a new PIC. The patient needed to be ground evacced. My commander told me it was the right decision and that was it. We all make decisions and we live with them or not. If the weather is not so good and you decide to drive on and do the mission, it does not mean the mission can't be scratched or terminated to RTB or some other safe spot (a big field). Decisions.
Make a video on your views on Plaaf J20 stealth fighter I hope you will.
That would be hard to do since he does not have first hand info about the plane.
Most Helo commercial guys have an instrument rating because it's difficult to get a job without one. 35 hours minimum to get the instrument rating.
Another problem with helicopters is fuel range. Flying ifr requires alternates often and fuel range is always an issue. Part 135 ifr are so restrictive that fuel load makes it very difficult along with some dumb faa rules.
Another factor is helicopters inability to climb above severe weather.
In the gulf of Mexico there was a saying "the weather is too bad to go ifr, we'll have to go vfr". The regulations were so restrictive and alternates were few that fuel was always an issue that you just had to go vfr.
With all the great tech (glass) going into light aircraft these days, you'd think a developer may try a simple styled HUD to just give the basics of horizon, airspeed and altitude ? Something like the fold away ones on the 737NG series ? Yes, probably not cost effective on an R22 or R44 but certainly anything turbine powered or anything used for charter/RPT.
Inadvertent flight into IMC doesn’t kill people, the subsequent loss of control or CFIT does! CFIT can be avoided by climbing above Minimum Safe Altitude. However that climb could be the thing that causes a loss of control, particularly in a helicopter. Flying on instruments takes practice and that practice needs to include how to recover from developing loss of control situations. In the airlines, we have programs that cover this but what exists for the PPL holder either fixed wing or rotary? What motivation is there for the average PPL to do such a course?
I'm not a pilot, but I could tell you what the motivation is: Not ending up as a pile of rubble and ash on the news.
I’m risk averse, which is sometimes a barrier in my life. But I’ve never been unhappy with decisions to not fly or even turn back.
When I was a fresh PPL I turned back on a solo cross country maintenance ferry flight when the weather was a bit average but I realised I wasn’t 100% sure if the hill I was about to fly past was the right one for my planned track (no GPS back then, just a folded up paper map, pencil and my trusty E6B). So I turned back and picked up my instructor (who just happened to by my mum) and she helped me make the trip safely. It was lack of experience and knowledge on my part, the weather was not as bad as I thought. But it was still the right decision on the day.
You know, I always thought that auto stabilization like that for a drone would be a good emergency button for helicopters that would automatically level you out into a hover.
I am wondering if in XPlane with a similar helicopter, I could script some LUA that would trigger, at some point along a route, a sudden fog. This would allow a simulator scenario to practice how to get their bird on the ground and live.
With the helicopter cockpit designs that I have seen, most of the non-military ones don't seem to have enough (in my inexpert opinion) "situational awareness" built into the instruments. In particular, it seems to me, that a HUD or reticle (in eye) is particularly valuable in an emergency landing situation. You have limited visibility outside the cockpit and are looking for the ground, and you're at 200 feet and you have to be scanning your instruments and flipping in and out of the cockpit, couldn't that get you killed easily?
If you could have all the data you need to know your situation, and also remain aware continuously of the outside world, I think it would be great. OR alternatively, if you had terrain awareness via synthetic vision on all civil aviation helicopters, wouldn't that help you land safe?
When I look at the military helicopters, especially the apache, the kiowa warrior, the blackhack, the pave hawk, they all seem to have avionics providing a better set of data for pilot and crew survival in high risk situations. If I'm wrong I'd love to be contradicted.
Also I'm curious if anyone thinks, instead of landing, the heli should climb and turn back towards open air. I am sure there must be people who argue over "land in fog, or fly away". Any non-armchair pilots who flew out of fog and lived, but wondered about landing instead wanna chime in?
I also have heard Kiowa and Apache pilots talk about being forced to fly helis with a bag on their heads, which makes them use their synthetic vision (helmet eyepiece) to fly.
My condolences to the family and friends of the pilot, sorry for your loss.
Hey Mover. With regards to the incident outside of Nola last week: did you happen to see the footage of the crash captured by someones dash cam?
I did. I also saw the footage of the aftermath that someone uploaded to TikTok. Very sad.
@@CWLemoine very much so. I assume from the angle of descent that he got into one of the high voltage transmission lines 😣
The ADS-B track is also very telling.
I'm a former helicopter instrument rating examiner/instructor with 4,500hrs rotary(11,500hrs total). Helicopters are more difficult to fly on instruments than fixed wing aircraft due to their inherent instability issues, generally poorer IFR instruments (most don't have a decent Attitude Indicator, nor ILS, nor VOR) and hence helo pilots generally practice less at IFR training.
But another reason that helicopter pilots fly LOWER to regain VMC when they inadvertently enter cloud is because for 5 months of the year Safety Altitude is above the zero degree isotherm (particularly in northern USA, Canada, UK and Europe). It's too cold for a helicopter to stay up there for very long.
If you're planning to fly IMC, or happen to inadvertantly enter IMC, the rules say you should climb above Safety Altitude and level at the next correct altitude for your direction of flight. But helicopters generally don't have either engine anti-icing systems or airframe/rotor anti-icing/de-icing. So yes, you've solved the problem of CFIT by climbing, but now your icing problems are just about to start and you may only have minutes before engine failure, or main/tail rotor vibration, or additional weight caused by ice accretion force you back down to earth.
Additionally, fuel is frequently reduced in order to maximise a commercial helicopter's load carrying ability. And with limited Radio/Nav aids to perform an 'internal' descent to VMC, you may not have enough fuel to transit to an airfield with a radar approach.
Sure, if you enter IMC whilst on a low hover an immediate landing could be safest. But from a high hover, the best option may well be to IMC abort - pull power and transition to forward flight on instruments. Then work out how you're going to get back down.
Years ago as a military pilot, whilst flying at 250 feet at night on NVGs, the helicopter pilot's manual stated that on inadvertently entering cloud the best option was not to climb but to remain at 250 feet, settle yourself onto an instrument scan and perform a level 180 degree turn back to where you came from!!
Compared to the T-38A, the R-44 with steam gauges and the OH-58 I flew with a glass cockpit were both MUCH easier to fly on instruments for me.
@@CWLemoine Sure, there are always exceptions and I apologise, I shouldn't have generalised about whether an aircraft type was easier or harder to fly. But I'll bet when flying the T-38A you didn't worry about flight below zero degrees in cloud, or not having enough fuel to reach any airport, nevermind one that had an instument approach.
I absolutely worried about fuel in the T-38A and, while we didn't have temp probes, we did have to worry about icing. I've had more emergency fuel diverts in weather in that jet than any other. My point is that more helicopters should be IFR rated, and it's foolish to limit them to only the big helicopters. This is why people lack currency, which is the most important factor.
@@CWLemoine I think the point I'm trying to make is that:
VFR weather minima for helicopters, with clear of cloud in sight of surface, almost encourages scud running and flying lower and slower towards poor weather.
There is a reluctance of the pilot to IMC abort and climb, perhaps caused by lack of IFR training as you suggest, but also caused by plan continuation bias, peer pressure, aircraft icing limitations, fuel limitations, IFR approach availability.
Many of these accidents are caused not by the pilot's inability to fly IFR on instruments or disorientation as they climb; they are CFIT caused by the pilot's reluctance to abort, and continued flight at low level in the attempt to regain VMC.
I think the root cause is the pilot's reluctance to admit that they are in IMC and their misguided attempt to continue VFR flight into IMC. And this phenomena seems to affect all pilots regardless of experience, IF capability or currency.
I agree completely. But I think the FAA needs to revisit what constitutes IFR certification of helicopters. I'm not suggesting people fly around in hard IMC, but I think the ability and proficiency to get an IFR clearance when needed would significantly reduce these accidents. A lot of these mishaps have been with CFIIs! Obviously the right answer is to avoid it, but getting into this situation shouldn't be a life or death emergency either.
I live not far from here and I had to make sure it wasn’t you. Just so sad. Helicopters are just very unforgiving.
You’re right about the different mindset in scud running in helos vs airplane but that’s the nature of the beast. You have an aircraft that has wire cutters and very little in the way of altitude mins, WX mins IAW the FARs and they land at off field LZs with no IAP. I can’t shoot an IAP to a road intersection. That’s the flexibility helos offer but it’s also a recipe for scud running.
Yep, the FAA needs to modify their stringent Part 27 IFR requirements. The B407 I fly for work is better equipped than most SE piston planes but yet I can’t fly IFR.
Risk assessment. Well I’ll be the odd one out here and say they don’t work. If you pulled the RA / brief sheets from military / HEMS crashes, you’d see they’re almost all “low risk.” They’re not a realistic go / no go device. They won’t make the pilot aware of any elements that they don’t already know and won’t make the pilot aware of the unknown; how a pilot will react to a changing environment. In short, a RA is a canned, static process that can never adapt to the fluid environment of helo ops. Only a competent, experienced pilot can do that.
An idea. Reach out the blancolirio channel. Military flight back ground C-130, C-141, T-38...etc. He now is a first officer on a 777. He's got a helicopter pilot (Army) 30+ year, I believe and they would have a fresh look and ideas. Sad to say I am retired Air Force but my back ground is from the aircrew side (Loadmaster). I have a question for you. Awhile back you said you made a mistake flying the chopper that could have been bad. Do you believe the number of hours and flight experiences help you thru that time you were flying? Hope this gives you some more ideas.
Are Helicopters restricted to 1000’ AGL populated areas and 500’ AGL in unpopulated areas?
Nope.
I know I shouldn't laugh because it could lead to a very dangerous situation, but I still couldn't help but laugh at your T-38 clip at 8:22. Altimeter and VSI have you essentially level but the attitude indicator and HSI are just spinning off into another dimension, pegged 90 degrees pitch up and the HSI is just going in circles. I can only assume you walked right into maintenance with that video clip and just said "are you kidding me?"
I should add when I saw that crash I was worried about both you and Lester, and then out of nowhere Lester appeared on the news and man was I relieved to hear that comforting voice.
Well Done Mover