I got my first HiFi system in 1974 at the age of 14, long before the first cd player. I bought my first cd player within the first year they came to market. I bought my first R2R DAC (Gustard R26) a few months ago and it is the closest thing I’ve heard to the reproduction of the organic sound of instruments produced by the digital domain.
A good R2R DAC is more likely to trick somebody in the next room into thinking an actual instrument is playing versus any other type of DAC I've ever heard. I play guitar 2 hours per day at home, since I've been running an R2R my wife has had difficulty telling if it was me or the hifi playing while she is in another part of the house....to the point that she will not invade my practice space because she thinks im in deep concentration when infact it's only the hifi is playing. Before the R2R she was 100% clear on what was me and what was the hifi. That's about the best real world benchmark I can imagine!
@@HailKingCeezer Denafrips Aries. I just care about music not obsessed with formats so this DAC will likely be the last one I buy until it can no longer play file types of the future (an unfortunate inevitability all DACS share.....within a decade all those 5000$ DACS will be floating around in a garbage island somewhere in the middle of the ocean but our tube amps and speakers will live on for generations). If you really like music the Aries is a bullseye purchase. If your consumed by the thought of the supposed newest greatest format then better to stick to low cost Chinese offerings able to run the hot new format of the month.....formats change constantly so if your chasing that dream, better to buy cheap and minimize inevitable financial hit in a year's time.
@@billbones1000 I had the ares II also. Never listened to as many albums start to finish with any other dac. Was a perfect match for my horn speakers. Natural and analog. It is the dac thst got me started on a search for level up r2r for more detail. Was about to go up the line with the Pontus II and ended up buying a 50lb OS multibit r2r from 92, and while its amazing and incredibly detailed, its not as natural, rich and analog and pleasant as the ares II. It's much closer to the high resolution delta sigma dac sound than the ares II. So even though multibit is r2r, I think the key is discreet ladder dacs in NOS.
I've gone from trying various sigma-delta over many years, to then trying just one R2R model (Shiit Bifrost Gen5), and I'm never going back. I also see no need to move beyond 16 bits/44.1kHz. Moving from sigma-delta to R2R provided vastly more improvement than 24bit/xyzkHz sigma-delta reproduction. I would love to move on to better R2R like Denafrips Pontus and others. I'm sure there are great sigma-delta dacs, but for the money, I think the R2R design delivers more.
The Bifrost is not an R2R DAC. It is a multibit DAC on a chip. So it's neither a delta-sigma DAC nor a R2R. It is another topology. And no, R2R's are not better for the money. In fact it takes quite a bit of cash to be able to build a decent one (hundreds of high precision resistors required). Value for the money is in the chip based DAC's. But don't take any of that to mean that R2R's aren't great, far from it.
@@bearclaw5115 Hmm. Chip is listed as R2R on a chip. Resistor ladders are resistor ladders, whether discrete or on a chip. But maybe you are a senior EE who knows better.
R2R DACs got a boost in popularity soon after the AKM factory fire. Since AKM chips became unobtanium, DAC manufacturers turned to ESS as an alternative. Unfortunately, redesigning a DAC around a different chip takes time. This transition period created a gap in the DAC market, which R2R DAC manufacturers were quick to take advantage of. Audio distributors got flooded with demand during the pandemic, but the supply just wasn't there. And so the stage was cleared for R2R DACs to make a comeback.
Modern R2R DACs are achieving 24+ bits, as others have pointed out. What Paul didn't mention is that modern R2R designs use FPGA processor chips for error correction between multiple laders. The sound is still very clean and has plenty of resolution, but the conversion process with R2R stays closer to analog and sounds more analog, compared to typical Delta Sigma converters. I've owned Venus II, but sold it and now own an Audio gd R1. They both sound amazing. The Venus is maybe 2% better, but 3x the cost and has a delay to reclock the signal.
@@bananasplitbrain476 how is it not possible when many say it is and even the PONTUS II 12TH say they got " True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters) "
Is it they can achieve 24bit but some bits are not used? or is it that using resistors alone there is 20 bit limit, but with the FPGA chip you can somehow achieve 24 bits? Seems like FPGA will end up being a game changer for the dac industry.
@@jackthecat6225 FPGA has been in use for a long time. But as it pertains to R2R, as said before, it can be used to control two or more sets of ladders for error correction, effectively increasing precision. I believe that this is where the extra bit depth comes from. But it's also possible that it's being used to simply support a 24-bit incoming signal by converting it to whatever the highest rate is, that the ladder(s) can actually handle.
I just upgraded to a HoloAudio Spring 3 and I’m floored at how natural and realistic it makes music sound. A *true* NOS R2R dac with such natural sounding timbre and an expansive soundstage. Anyone who listens to music with a lot of instrumentation needs to audition a modern R2R dac at least once imo.
I just ordered a Spring 3 KTE + Pre-amp as an upgrade from my Chord Qutest. So many great reviews on the May and Spring 3 vs the other R2R dacs. I can't wait to experience it.
👍Where I worked in the early ‘80’s, we were using resistor ladder DAC’s for digitally controlled RF microwave component designs. 👨🏻 Edit: If I remember correctly, the DAC output was fed into an inverting op amp circuit. Have a great day, Paul.🥳👨🏻
Ladder DACS are cool. Very smooth and musical. Delta sigmas are more detailed and upfront sounding. Personally I love them all. Appreciate the difference. ;)
Oh boy Paul really screwed this one up big time! First of all, let's be clear that there are R2R DACs that handle 32-bit audio rather well. In fact, there are 64-bit R2R DACs and R2R DAC designs sound much more natural and more musically alive than any DS DAC with digital filters and a corrective feedback loop inherited by its design. Let's also be clear that Delta Sigma converters DO NOT output DSD. A Delta-Sigma Analog-to-Digital Converter (DS-ADC) consists of a Delta-Sigma Modulator to create a 1-bit pulse train, and a digital counter to integrate it. The Modulator uses a simple comparator (a one-bit ADC) fed by a difference amp (“delta”) and integrator (“sigma”) to judge each change since the last sample, changing state when the input is changing. Sampling at a fixed clock frequency that is not changed from the original sample rate. The output of the Delta-Sigma Modulator is then counted to construct a digital word that tracks the analog input, and it is also fed back to the reference leg of the difference amp (subtractor) to judge the next analog sample as rising or falling. (AH HA a 1-bit pulse train, that is DSD right? NO) The Delta-Sigma “Modulator” outputs one bit but this is only half of the total analog to digital conversion. When Paul talks about what the output of the Delta Sigma-ADC is, he should talk about the end result which is a whole digital word of many bits that gets updated at a clock rate. The number of bits wide and the number of conversions per second are any ADC’s main specs.
Those high bit depth DAC's Do have the problems Paul mentioned, they attempt to correct the non linearity in various ways, like taking it to a higher level (more bits) then measure the error at the factory and use a lookup table to change the actual incoming PCM samples to one that will give a DAC output closer to what the original sample called for. I think you'll find Paul was talking about a pure R2R DAC without all this extra complexity.
@@paulstubbs7678 Paul said that R2R DACs can only be done to 20 bits which is untrue. IF you have any links to scientific data showing that there are any issues with higher bit rate R2R DACs I sure would appreciate you posting them for everyone to see. As you can tell by the comments on this video, high bit rate R2R DACs sound better than Sigma Delta converters.
Paul is talking about the actual physical limitations of the DACs, you are referring to the marketing claims. Which is very much like when talking about SSD transferring speeds, the promise vs what actual speed is going to happen in a normal situation.
The Denafrips Terminator II resistor ladders are discrete and contain about five hundred 0.005% precision resistors per channel for 26-bit resolution. The Terminator II is capable of reproducing PCM up to 1.536MHz and DSD up to 45.2MHz (DSD1024) in native mode. I have never heard the Denafips DAC but the reviews are always very positive.
Thank you for this explanation, as I too have noticed the recent profusion of R2R/ladder DACs, many of which get glowing reviews. So if those DACs can convert DSD files/SACDs, then what method do they use to do that?
Found one or two of those Ultra Link DAC's on ebay recently. Price was tempting, until I realized the oldest PS Audio DAC for modern use would be the NuWave series...
Vishay makes 0.00003% resistor. It's a matter of cost. We have done several r2r at audio note UK. Even 24bit with a ton of 2 watts neobium resistors. Works fine.. But it ain't easy getting past 24 bits with any decent results without using a fpga.
Marantz has a smart solution, PCM and DXD inputs are up-converted to DSD at 11.2MHz using the proprietary MMM-Stream converter within the player. The sound is wonderful, my old CDs have never sounded better. (SA-10 and SA-KI Ruby)
Kinda same as PS Audios DirectStream MK2 FPGA DAC does..😊 It upsamples to 20X DSD, if I remember correctly.. Would love to get a listen to that, if I ever get a chance.
In the consumer realm you never need more than 16 bits. No one could ever proof the opposite to be true. Neither theoretically nor empirically. Due to reasons of certain anonalues like phase problems, inaccuracies, R2R DACs like my Denafrips sound richer, have a fuller presentation, sound more spacious, more analog like. I think it is due to some psychoacoustic effect. It is less harsh with textures, sounds wider, more open, a tiny bit less detailed, more pleasing. But not the most neutral. Luckily, every real world consumer uses mp3 s or at least redbook standard. Physically, physiologically, no one needs anything more.
Hi Paul, Its nice to hear you talking about DACs again, I believe there is a mark II of the Direct Stream DAC coming soon. Based on you comments in this video I would expect it will not be an R2R DAC. If R2R isn't as good as DSD why do so many reviewers rave about Denafrips. is the new PS Audio DAC going to out perform Denafrips? That would be amazing if it does.
R2R is apples compared to DSD oranges. R2R/ PCM uses instantaneous discreet voltage levels at each sample. Thus an R2R ladder reproduces THAT voltage for THAT sample. DSD is a continuous stream of single bits that floats up and down with the analog wave. R2R can not reproduce DSD. But such DACs can include circuits that can.
@@TheMythOfNormal A Ladder DAC/ R2R is actually less compatible with DSD than a Sigma Delta. In a quick search I did not see anything stating the Mojo was R2R. And I would expect it to me promoted if so. It reads more like a Sigma Delta system.
@@glenncurry3041 my Denafrip Venus II is an R2R dac with True balanced 26BIT 6BIT DSD and support DXD/DSD1024 and handles DSD just fine sounds superb and thats all that really matter how a dac work dont matter its about how they sound and how you like the sound thats why even Tube dacs exist some like it some dont but most of them handle DSD just fine if you throw enough money at them :) if you want to try a real high end R2R try the Denafrips TERMINATOR PLUS · 12th just about 19 Kg i had a listen to it in a store and now i simply wish i was rich haha
Are they any good? Since Paul fudged the answer in order to push DSD, I'll chip in: yes, they are. The venerable old Philips TDA1541 chip still leaves many sigma-delta DACs in the dust!
Agree 100%. Love my mhdt labs "Istanbul" nonOS dac, based on the legendary PCM 61P-K R-2R chip with tube buffered output. Sounds great. Perhaps a DSD dac in the 5-25k region is equally nice sounding. The delta sigma dacs based on ESS and AKM chips failed to impress me. So I don't care. 😀
With delta-sigma, oversampling seems to make sense, smoothing out all the changes in that crazy pulse stream approximating analogue, however with R2R, non oversampling (NOS?) makes more sense, don't try and guess anything, just put out what the recording engineer/performer present to you, that has to be a purer sound. Pity I cannot afford a decent R2R, stuck with chip DAC's (delta sigma) I kind of think Paul has finally figured out why he finds DSD better, less conversion's at playback. (and mixing/mastering) It would be interesting to build a R2R style ADC, record some music, play it back using an R2R DAC, then compare that to the same thing done DSD all the way. One problem, R2R ADC's don't exist.
It should be remembered that unlike DSD, which actually is just a stream of bits following the analog voltage changes, PCM is based on each individual sample being it's own unique data point! That you can literally go to a specific point in time granular up to 198,000 individual data points per second, and find out what the voltage level was at that point. And then with an RtoR DAC reproduce THAT voltage. And then near perfectly move to the next data point and it's highly accurate voltage measurement. The trick is to then integrate, smooth, filter that results into music. While Sigma Delta is basically a sloppy attempt to follow a guestimate of what voltage you should be at at some averaged time period. Where when an RtoR goes to that next exact voltage level, an S/D just goes "that seems to be a higher number so I will turn on for this clock cycle".
I wish I could remember who said it, it was a bigwig from a chip manufacturer, he stated that the industry moved from the old multibit ladder chips to the bitstream type because they were much cheaper to make
@@Grrrr3FKAGrrrrGrrrrGrrrr Digital has always been about "just good enough" and never about better! From day one it has been about what compromises they are forced into.
I booted out DS since 2013, had a number of hifi forum arguments when trying to explain the holography from TD1543 chips. DS has a "flat sound" to my ears. DAC-AH is £150, try one.
For a guy who's the head of a company making competing products, Paul lack of knowledge about what's out there currently in the marketplace is pretty mind boggling. I guess he's never looked inside a Denafrips Terminator.
Apparent lack of knowledge. You have no way of knowing what Paul knows or doesn't know. PS Audio makes some of the world's most respected DACs. Not exactly sure what your point here is. Next you're going to tell us that Koenigsegg or McLaren don't know what's out there simply because they have yet to make a foray into electric vehicles.
@@TheMythOfNormal The problem is that almost everything Paul says in this video shows that he simply isn’t aware of what other manufacturers have achieved recently. He says all modern DACs are Delta Sigma, which is plainly false. That it would be impossible to make a discrete component resistor ladder, and at the end of the video that his “perfect DAC” would be a high bit R2R DAC, but “it’s impossible”. But all of these things are available today from PS Audio’s competitors.
But they use FPGA to achieve anything more than 18 or 20 bit....Nothing wrong with it, but what Paul implied concerning doing it with a pure R2R Ladder is correct. Such precise resistors might be made but the implementation thermally to do it and the costs would likely be prohibitive.
My Dac is a Musical Fidelity M1 with delta sigma chip.some friends tell me it’s very outdated but it stills sounds good to me. Some suggestions are Denafrieps, Project dac, schiit audio,Cambridge audio and Chord. I like hard rock, pop, Metal, classical and fado. Any suggestions?
It used to be so easy to listen to music. Since digitalisation, we get all tense and nervous when we turn on the hifi system in case the sound does not meet requirements of new technologies
I streamed for a bit over a year using Qobuz and Tidal using a streamer and external DAC. I came to the conclusion I was listening to albums and CDs far more and enjoyed them as much if not more. Now I only stream internet stations for background music and dropped all my subscriptions
Paul is right - for an R2R dac to have true 24 bit depth, you would have to match resistors to .00001 percent. Absolutely NOT possible in modern production methods. Any company claiming otherwise is just marketing bs/hype.
@@Grrrr3FKAGrrrrGrrrrGrrrr Correct - no current DAC tech is capable of true 24-bit depth. I was specifically addressing a few comments that were stating Paul is wrong and that this or that R2R DAC is/was capable of 24 bits, so I was explaining why it's just not possible in an R2R design. Even DACs using multibit chips cannot truly do 24 bits - even Mike Moffat (Schiit) stated so as they were developing the Yggdrasil.
Too bad because the new-fangled digital stuff has a considerably greater frequency response (so the bass that you hear is the real bass, not some made-up RIAA curve), and considerably less noise and a greatly better dynamic range, which means the breath of that sax player or dreamy vocalist doesn't get lost in all that noise but when the whole band hits it there isn't a limited dynamic range. Do you really listen to and enjoy the music, if so, then you should consider moving into the digital world?
why do we need 32bits though? can't the human ear only hear about 120dB, or close to 20 bits, surely 32 bits is like making a tv with colours the human eye couldn't see!
Not to mention that there are only a very few D-S DACs that can actually output a full 24 bit of dynamic range... I'm not 100% in the "measurments only" camp, but ASR's tests showing true dynamic range output are eye-opening.
even more so with the typical room having a 40-50dbSPL noise floor and threshold of pain, ears bleed at 120dbSPL, most environments can't allow more than 70-80db of dynamic range before hearing loss. So 60DB is often the real world limit.
My budget falls somewhere between "cheap" $500 delta-sigma and the R2R Denafrips Ares II at $880. Everyone raves about the more natural tonality and soundstage of the Ares II (for the price). My questions are why and how? Why is this "older" technology surpassing "newer" technology in qualities we care about? What is going on electrically? I know Chinese labor is cheap, hence these R2R DACs are mostly available from there, but today's technology is not static. Such surface mount devices like capacitors, resistors, and such should be game for automation in mounting and soldering them in place such that human labor could be minimized. If R2R offers such better sonic advantages, why can't a company here in the West implement a design and roll it out at price points that could compete? I mean, like Rode Microphones uses surface mount technology in producing their very good microphones in Australia and can offer them at competitive prices.
Musician Pegasus : Proprietary R2R + DSD Architecture True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters) Low Noise Power Supply FIFO Buffer Digital Signal Processing via FPGA DSD1024, PCM1536 Supports On USB & I2S Input (the audio source needs to be compatible with the native interface) Proprietary USB Audio Solution via STM32F446 Advanced AMR Based MCU Licensed Thesycon USB Driver For Windows Platform Driverless On Mac & Linux DSD DSD64-DoP On All Input DSD1024 On USB & I2S Input PCM 24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Input 1536kHz On USB & I2S Input
@@salvadorrodenas3071 it's because of how steep you can put in a low pass filter at the output. 24 bit provides you with more playing room. the way you implement the low pass filter will slightly alter the way the dac sounds, in a way you can say a well designed 24 bit sounds "faster" than a 16 bit one with an identical input signal.
From Ivan Matko and others in reply to Jeremy Blanchard above: For what I know the issue is resistor technology, for 24bit R2R u get to very small values with high precision that it's impossible to produce. And voltage values get to nano volts on on the 24th bit, practically 0V...very, very small. It’s also limited by material science. It’s a bit like asking for a ruler that has a length as precise as 0.1 nano meter. It won’t be possible because the length will always vary due to temperature and a 0.1nm tolerance is down to a single atom which will be impossible to produce and unstable due to corrosion. Resistors likewise also can’t be made with infinite precision due to material science limitations. But it’s alright as even the most excellent audio can be achieved with 20 bits. Those 4 extra bits are bogus resolution that never can be used for a practical purpose anyway. So why is audio jumping from 16 to 24 bits? Because we segment data in bytes and 16 bits are made of 2 bytes while 24 bits are made of 3 bytes. And hardest of all: For every bit you add you increase the precision (number of voltage steps) of the signal to twice. At some point when adding bits those steps get so tiny that noise, thermal drift and component tolerances from those resistors will be more than the step itself being added.
When somebody invents a hi-fi that can be turned on you have a high quality sound without any warm up that would be cool. Mine takes around 6 hours and I don't have the time
Unless there is something in your statement that I am not getting, what you are saying makes no sense, not even a little sense. High quality sound takes 6 hours? you either have a defective system or defective ears.
Does anyone have a resource that could explain why an R2R can't do 24bit, like Paul says in this video? I did a quick Google search but didn't find anything explaining why 24bit isn't possible. TIA
For what I know the issue is resistor tehnology, for 24bit R2R u get to very small values with high precision that its impossible to produce And voltage values get to nano volts on on the 24th bit, practily 0V
For every bit you add you increase the precision (number of voltage steps) of the signal to twice. At some point when adding bits those steps get so tiny that noise, thermal drift and component tolerances from those resistors will be more than the step itself being added.
@@officerockstar It’s also limited by material science. It’s a bit like asking for a ruler that has a length as precise as 0.1 nano meter. It won’t be possible because the length will always vary due to temperature and a 0.1nm tolerance is down to a single atom which will be impossible to produce and unstable due to corrosion. Resistors likewise also can’t be made with infinite precision due to material science limitations. But it’s alright as even the most excellent audio can be achieved with 20 bits. Those 4 extra bits are bogus resolution that never can be used for a practical purpose anyway. So why is audio jumping from 16 to 24 bits? Because we segment data in bytes and 16 bits are made of 2 bytes while 24 bits are made of 3 bytes.
Try this. 2 volt peak line level. one bit would 2 volt swing. 2 bits, a 1 volt and 2 volt representation. 4 bits would drop to .5 volt differences. 8 bits would drop to a .25 volt difference. 16 bits to a .125v difference. 24 bits to a .083v difference. The difference between levels becomes so small no electronics in existence can generate that small of a difference. Transistors require .6v (eb) to fire. So to even working with 22 bit if you use a 10v rail for existing hardware (24 bits becomes .55v difference) and then reduce the analog out to 2v, anything past 22 bits is inaudible.
I swear only China makes R2R dacs right now...especially after the whole issue with the States not allowing them the ability to the American chip market
I never really liked digital from the start. So are we going from saying PCM is not cool to saying Bitstream is cool and DSD cooler and now PCM is cool again
Kind of. The the fpga inside can handle 24 bit info but the actual ladder can't output it. This video gives a good explanation th-cam.com/video/a1a8l0-yDok/w-d-xo.html
I got my first HiFi system in 1974 at the age of 14, long before the first cd player. I bought my first cd player within the first year they came to market. I bought my first R2R DAC (Gustard R26) a few months ago and it is the closest thing I’ve heard to the reproduction of the organic sound of instruments produced by the digital domain.
A good R2R DAC is more likely to trick somebody in the next room into thinking an actual instrument is playing versus any other type of DAC I've ever heard. I play guitar 2 hours per day at home, since I've been running an R2R my wife has had difficulty telling if it was me or the hifi playing while she is in another part of the house....to the point that she will not invade my practice space because she thinks im in deep concentration when infact it's only the hifi is playing. Before the R2R she was 100% clear on what was me and what was the hifi. That's about the best real world benchmark I can imagine!
Which dac do you use Matt?
@@HailKingCeezer Denafrips Aries. I just care about music not obsessed with formats so this DAC will likely be the last one I buy until it can no longer play file types of the future (an unfortunate inevitability all DACS share.....within a decade all those 5000$ DACS will be floating around in a garbage island somewhere in the middle of the ocean but our tube amps and speakers will live on for generations). If you really like music the Aries is a bullseye purchase. If your consumed by the thought of the supposed newest greatest format then better to stick to low cost Chinese offerings able to run the hot new format of the month.....formats change constantly so if your chasing that dream, better to buy cheap and minimize inevitable financial hit in a year's time.
@@billbones1000 I had the ares II also. Never listened to as many albums start to finish with any other dac. Was a perfect match for my horn speakers. Natural and analog.
It is the dac thst got me started on a search for level up r2r for more detail. Was about to go up the line with the Pontus II and ended up buying a 50lb OS multibit r2r from 92, and while its amazing and incredibly detailed, its not as natural, rich and analog and pleasant as the ares II. It's much closer to the high resolution delta sigma dac sound than the ares II. So even though multibit is r2r, I think the key is discreet ladder dacs in NOS.
I've gone from trying various sigma-delta over many years, to then trying just one R2R model (Shiit Bifrost Gen5), and I'm never going back. I also see no need to move beyond 16 bits/44.1kHz. Moving from sigma-delta to R2R provided vastly more improvement than 24bit/xyzkHz sigma-delta reproduction. I would love to move on to better R2R like Denafrips Pontus and others. I'm sure there are great sigma-delta dacs, but for the money, I think the R2R design delivers more.
The Bifrost is not an R2R DAC. It is a multibit DAC on a chip. So it's neither a delta-sigma DAC nor a R2R. It is another topology. And no, R2R's are not better for the money. In fact it takes quite a bit of cash to be able to build a decent one (hundreds of high precision resistors required). Value for the money is in the chip based DAC's. But don't take any of that to mean that R2R's aren't great, far from it.
@@bearclaw5115 Hmm. Chip is listed as R2R on a chip. Resistor ladders are resistor ladders, whether discrete or on a chip. But maybe you are a senior EE who knows better.
R2R DACs got a boost in popularity soon after the AKM factory fire. Since AKM chips became unobtanium, DAC manufacturers turned to ESS as an alternative. Unfortunately, redesigning a DAC around a different chip takes time. This transition period created a gap in the DAC market, which R2R DAC manufacturers were quick to take advantage of. Audio distributors got flooded with demand during the pandemic, but the supply just wasn't there. And so the stage was cleared for R2R DACs to make a comeback.
Wow! That's a really interesting explanation, Vicky.
Yes, a well implemented R2R can sound much better than most Delta Sigma dacs! Its not just about availability, but how they sound.
Modern R2R DACs are achieving 24+ bits, as others have pointed out. What Paul didn't mention is that modern R2R designs use FPGA processor chips for error correction between multiple laders. The sound is still very clean and has plenty of resolution, but the conversion process with R2R stays closer to analog and sounds more analog, compared to typical Delta Sigma converters. I've owned Venus II, but sold it and now own an Audio gd R1. They both sound amazing. The Venus is maybe 2% better, but 3x the cost and has a delay to reclock the signal.
This is not possible. 20 bits is the border.
But it does not matter anyway. To date, R2R is the best digital can get.
@@bananasplitbrain476 how is it not possible when many say it is and even the PONTUS II 12TH say they got " True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters) "
Is it they can achieve 24bit but some bits are not used? or is it that using resistors alone there is 20 bit limit, but with the FPGA chip you can somehow achieve 24 bits? Seems like FPGA will end up being a game changer for the dac industry.
@@jackthecat6225 FPGA has been in use for a long time. But as it pertains to R2R, as said before, it can be used to control two or more sets of ladders for error correction, effectively increasing precision. I believe that this is where the extra bit depth comes from. But it's also possible that it's being used to simply support a 24-bit incoming signal by converting it to whatever the highest rate is, that the ladder(s) can actually handle.
@@zackw4941 Okay thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it. I get what you are saying.
I love listening to Paul, his voice, tone and demeanor is just so pleasant and such a pleasure to listen to.
I just upgraded to a HoloAudio Spring 3 and I’m floored at how natural and realistic it makes music sound. A *true* NOS R2R dac with such natural sounding timbre and an expansive soundstage. Anyone who listens to music with a lot of instrumentation needs to audition a modern R2R dac at least once imo.
I just ordered a Spring 3 KTE + Pre-amp as an upgrade from my Chord Qutest. So many great reviews on the May and Spring 3 vs the other R2R dacs. I can't wait to experience it.
I love my R2R and tube hybrid Aqua La Scala DAC. But, the Halo or La Scala DACs sound head and shoulders over the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC.
@@heyguyslolGAMING you’re gonna love it!
Awesome rundown on how RDR works. Thanks!
👍Where I worked in the early ‘80’s, we were using resistor ladder DAC’s for digitally controlled RF microwave component designs. 👨🏻
Edit: If I remember correctly, the DAC output was fed into an inverting op amp circuit. Have a great day, Paul.🥳👨🏻
Thank you for clearing that up. Quite honestly, I thought the bird was the word.
And yet and yet... the Holo May R2R ladder dac won the Stereophile product of the year in 2020.
Hi Paul, you should get a Denafrips Terminator II to see what a modern R2R dac sounds like.
And a HoloAudio May KTE
Or the Sonnet Morpheus or the Althea
Aqua La Scala DAC trumps the Denefrips Terminator DAC.
Or the Aqua LaScala tube
R2R DAC mentioned above.
Great content Paul!
You are welcome.
Very interesting and well explained.
Ladder DACS are cool. Very smooth and musical. Delta sigmas are more detailed and upfront sounding. Personally I love them all. Appreciate the difference. ;)
Delta sigma needs to binned. Inferior sounding.
Oh boy Paul really screwed this one up big time!
First of all, let's be clear that there are R2R DACs that handle 32-bit audio rather well.
In fact, there are 64-bit R2R DACs and R2R DAC designs sound much more natural and more musically alive than any DS DAC with digital filters and a corrective feedback loop inherited by its design.
Let's also be clear that Delta Sigma converters DO NOT output DSD.
A Delta-Sigma Analog-to-Digital Converter (DS-ADC) consists of a Delta-Sigma Modulator to create a 1-bit pulse train, and a digital counter to integrate it.
The Modulator uses a simple comparator (a one-bit ADC) fed by a difference amp (“delta”) and integrator (“sigma”) to judge each change since the last sample, changing state when the input is changing.
Sampling at a fixed clock frequency that is not changed from the original sample rate.
The output of the Delta-Sigma Modulator is then counted to construct a digital word that tracks the analog input, and it is also fed back to the reference leg of the difference amp (subtractor) to judge the next analog sample as rising or falling.
(AH HA a 1-bit pulse train, that is DSD right? NO)
The Delta-Sigma “Modulator” outputs one bit but this is only half of the total analog to digital conversion.
When Paul talks about what the output of the Delta Sigma-ADC is, he should talk about the end result which is a whole digital word of many bits that gets updated at a clock rate.
The number of bits wide and the number of conversions per second are any ADC’s main specs.
Those high bit depth DAC's Do have the problems Paul mentioned, they attempt to correct the non linearity in various ways, like taking it to a higher level (more bits) then measure the error at the factory and use a lookup table to change the actual incoming PCM samples to one that will give a DAC output closer to what the original sample called for.
I think you'll find Paul was talking about a pure R2R DAC without all this extra complexity.
@@paulstubbs7678 Paul said that R2R DACs can only be done to 20 bits which is untrue.
IF you have any links to scientific data showing that there are any issues with higher bit rate R2R DACs I sure would appreciate you posting them for everyone to see.
As you can tell by the comments on this video, high bit rate R2R DACs sound better than Sigma Delta converters.
Paul is talking about the actual physical limitations of the DACs, you are referring to the marketing claims. Which is very much like when talking about SSD transferring speeds, the promise vs what actual speed is going to happen in a normal situation.
He remains a salesman in the end and needs to promote PS Audio.
@@RealHIFIHelp No marketing claims.
R2R DACs are absolutely not limited to 20 bits.
There are, in fact, currently available 32 and 64-bit R2R DACs.
The Denafrips Terminator II resistor ladders are discrete and contain about five hundred 0.005% precision resistors per channel for 26-bit resolution. The Terminator II is capable of reproducing PCM up to 1.536MHz and DSD up to 45.2MHz (DSD1024) in native mode. I have never heard the Denafips DAC but the reviews are always very positive.
they're amazing!
I'm VERY satisfied with my Venus II.
@@infinite1der $3,000? LOLZ. How much were your cable lifters?
@@roofpizza1250 Oh, that was brutal!👍
@@roofpizza1250 Why would I ever pay more than a $1 for a slice of pizza.
Thank you for this explanation, as I too have noticed the recent profusion of R2R/ladder DACs, many of which get glowing reviews. So if those DACs can convert DSD files/SACDs, then what method do they use to do that?
The Enyo (formally known as Ares II) DAC is a 24Bit/1536KHz, DSD1024, discrete resistor ladder
I would buy a Denafrips Terminator II solely because of the name. But I'm sure it sounds pretty good as well.
Denafrips is a good sound. My benchmark dac2 was ok till I tried a r2r
I have a dac that works with Philips 16 bits dac chip, two of them. TDA-1541A single crown
Found one or two of those Ultra Link DAC's on ebay recently. Price was tempting, until I realized the oldest PS Audio DAC for modern use would be the NuWave series...
Vishay makes 0.00003% resistor. It's a matter of cost. We have done several r2r at audio note UK. Even 24bit with a ton of 2 watts neobium resistors. Works fine.. But it ain't easy getting past 24 bits with any decent results without using a fpga.
👍
Marantz has a smart solution, PCM and DXD inputs are up-converted to DSD at 11.2MHz using the proprietary MMM-Stream converter within the player. The sound is wonderful, my old CDs have never sounded better. (SA-10 and SA-KI Ruby)
Kinda same as PS Audios DirectStream MK2 FPGA DAC does..😊 It upsamples to 20X DSD, if I remember correctly..
Would love to get a listen to that, if I ever get a chance.
In the consumer realm you never need more than 16 bits. No one could ever proof the opposite to be true. Neither theoretically nor empirically. Due to reasons of certain anonalues like phase problems, inaccuracies, R2R DACs like my Denafrips sound richer, have a fuller presentation, sound more spacious, more analog like. I think it is due to some psychoacoustic effect. It is less harsh with textures, sounds wider, more open, a tiny bit less detailed, more pleasing. But not the most neutral.
Luckily, every real world consumer uses mp3 s or at least redbook standard. Physically, physiologically, no one needs anything more.
I bought the Border Patrol SE dac. Its a keeper though i dont have any hires files
Hi Paul, Its nice to hear you talking about DACs again, I believe there is a mark II of the Direct Stream DAC coming soon. Based on you comments in this video I would expect it will not be an R2R DAC.
If R2R isn't as good as DSD why do so many reviewers rave about Denafrips. is the new PS Audio DAC going to out perform Denafrips? That would be amazing if it does.
R2R is apples compared to DSD oranges. R2R/ PCM uses instantaneous discreet voltage levels at each sample. Thus an R2R ladder reproduces THAT voltage for THAT sample. DSD is a continuous stream of single bits that floats up and down with the analog wave. R2R can not reproduce DSD. But such DACs can include circuits that can.
@@glenncurry3041
I believe that the
CHORD Mojo uses an
FPGA and is DSD capable.
Is it an R2R or something else?
@@TheMythOfNormal A Ladder DAC/ R2R is actually less compatible with DSD than a Sigma Delta. In a quick search I did not see anything stating the Mojo was R2R. And I would expect it to me promoted if so. It reads more like a Sigma Delta system.
@@glenncurry3041 my Denafrip Venus II is an R2R dac with True balanced 26BIT 6BIT DSD and support DXD/DSD1024 and handles DSD just fine sounds superb and thats all that really matter how a dac work dont matter its about how they sound and how you like the sound thats why even Tube dacs exist some like it some dont but most of them handle DSD just fine if you throw enough money at them :)
if you want to try a real high end R2R try the Denafrips TERMINATOR PLUS · 12th just about 19 Kg i had a listen to it in a store and now i simply wish i was rich haha
@@pappo666 Yes Denafrips is one of the few ladder DACS that also handle DSD completely. Thankfully they added that 6 bit path for DSD!
Are they any good? Since Paul fudged the answer in order to push DSD, I'll chip in: yes, they are. The venerable old Philips TDA1541 chip still leaves many sigma-delta DACs in the dust!
Agree 100%. Love my mhdt labs "Istanbul" nonOS dac, based on the legendary PCM 61P-K R-2R chip with tube buffered output. Sounds great. Perhaps a DSD dac in the 5-25k region is equally nice sounding. The delta sigma dacs based on ESS and AKM chips failed to impress me. So I don't care. 😀
Delta Sigma throws away music. 24 bits minimum? Maybe for marketing, but show me a dac that measures 24 bits.
With delta-sigma, oversampling seems to make sense, smoothing out all the changes in that crazy pulse stream approximating analogue, however with R2R, non oversampling (NOS?) makes more sense, don't try and guess anything, just put out what the recording engineer/performer present to you, that has to be a purer sound.
Pity I cannot afford a decent R2R, stuck with chip DAC's (delta sigma)
I kind of think Paul has finally figured out why he finds DSD better, less conversion's at playback. (and mixing/mastering)
It would be interesting to build a R2R style ADC, record some music, play it back using an R2R DAC,
then compare that to the same thing done DSD all the way.
One problem, R2R ADC's don't exist.
A gap in the market?
Try a Soekris R2R DAC
Do discrete ladder r2r dacs sound more natural than the multibit r2r chips?
It should be remembered that unlike DSD, which actually is just a stream of bits following the analog voltage changes, PCM is based on each individual sample being it's own unique data point! That you can literally go to a specific point in time granular up to 198,000 individual data points per second, and find out what the voltage level was at that point. And then with an RtoR DAC reproduce THAT voltage. And then near perfectly move to the next data point and it's highly accurate voltage measurement. The trick is to then integrate, smooth, filter that results into music.
While Sigma Delta is basically a sloppy attempt to follow a guestimate of what voltage you should be at at some averaged time period. Where when an RtoR goes to that next exact voltage level, an S/D just goes "that seems to be a higher number so I will turn on for this clock cycle".
Cool, thanks for this explanation 👍
I wish I could remember who said it, it was a bigwig from a chip manufacturer, he stated that the industry moved from the old multibit ladder chips to the bitstream type because they were much cheaper to make
@@Grrrr3FKAGrrrrGrrrrGrrrr Digital has always been about "just good enough" and never about better! From day one it has been about what compromises they are forced into.
I booted out DS since 2013, had a number of hifi forum arguments when trying to explain the holography from TD1543 chips. DS has a "flat sound" to my ears. DAC-AH is £150, try one.
For a guy who's the head of a company making competing products, Paul lack of knowledge about what's out there currently in the marketplace is pretty mind boggling. I guess he's never looked inside a Denafrips Terminator.
Apparent lack of knowledge. You have no way of knowing what Paul knows or doesn't know. PS Audio makes some of the world's most respected DACs. Not exactly sure what your point here is. Next you're going to tell us that Koenigsegg or McLaren don't know what's out there simply because they have yet to make a foray into electric vehicles.
@@TheMythOfNormal The problem is that almost everything Paul says in this video shows that he simply isn’t aware of what other manufacturers have achieved recently. He says all modern DACs are Delta Sigma, which is plainly false. That it would be impossible to make a discrete component resistor ladder, and at the end of the video that his “perfect DAC” would be a high bit R2R DAC, but “it’s impossible”. But all of these things are available today from PS Audio’s competitors.
But they use FPGA to achieve anything more than 18 or 20 bit....Nothing wrong with it, but what Paul implied concerning doing it with a pure R2R Ladder is correct. Such precise resistors might be made but the implementation thermally to do it and the costs would likely be prohibitive.
Couldnt the signal send as float and the dac have a table that say what exactly is the resistor is?
My Dac is a Musical Fidelity M1 with delta sigma chip.some friends tell me it’s very outdated but it stills sounds good to me. Some suggestions are Denafrieps, Project dac, schiit audio,Cambridge audio and Chord.
I like hard rock, pop, Metal, classical and fado.
Any suggestions?
Gustard R26 should be a good option.
I know in theory, the more bits the better, but it seems some of the more natural and organic sounding DACs are the R24 DACs.
Absolutely correct. A 16-bit R2R DAC kills anything a 32-bit chip DAC can do. One sound analog and organic. The other sound clinical and thin.
that keyboard.... Ergo what!
It used to be so easy to listen to music. Since digitalisation, we get all tense and nervous when we turn on the hifi system in case the sound does not meet requirements of new technologies
I streamed for a bit over a year using Qobuz and Tidal using a streamer and external DAC. I came to the conclusion I was listening to albums and CDs far more and enjoyed them as much if not more. Now I only stream internet stations for background music and dropped all my subscriptions
i had the direct stream Jr and the denafrips pontus 2 at the same time. I no longer have the Jr
Paul is right - for an R2R dac to have true 24 bit depth, you would have to match resistors to .00001 percent. Absolutely NOT possible in modern production methods. Any company claiming otherwise is just marketing bs/hype.
Delta/Sigma DACs don't achieve true 24 bit depth either
@@Grrrr3FKAGrrrrGrrrrGrrrr Correct - no current DAC tech is capable of true 24-bit depth. I was specifically addressing a few comments that were stating Paul is wrong and that this or that R2R DAC is/was capable of 24 bits, so I was explaining why it's just not possible in an R2R design. Even DACs using multibit chips cannot truly do 24 bits - even Mike Moffat (Schiit) stated so as they were developing the Yggdrasil.
Resistors? We don't need no stinkin' resistors!
As a whole which type of dac is more reliable over a longer period of years?
The more I get to hear about this new fangled digital nonsense, makes me appreciate a sliver of diamond dancing in a groove of vinyl even more
Too bad because the new-fangled digital stuff has a considerably greater frequency response (so the bass that you hear is the real bass, not some made-up RIAA curve), and considerably less noise and a greatly better dynamic range, which means the breath of that sax player or dreamy vocalist doesn't get lost in all that noise but when the whole band hits it there isn't a limited dynamic range.
Do you really listen to and enjoy the music, if so, then you should consider moving into the digital world?
@@JonAnderhub Whoosh..... as the sarcasm flies over your head 😂
I wish know the vision of ps audio of a r2r studio interface for monitoring
VINYL SOUNDS SO MUCH SIMPLER
HoloAudio May DAC is 32 bit R2R, dual mono, galvanic isolation, etc.. Own it (the L2), like it.
Thanks Mr McGowan
65.000 voltages? I think so, it is 16 bits resolution.
*Holo Audio and Denafrips would like to have a chat*
get a Holo Audio L3 KTE May DAC and review it please
why do we need 32bits though? can't the human ear only hear about 120dB, or close to 20 bits, surely 32 bits is like making a tv with colours the human eye couldn't see!
Not to mention that there are only a very few D-S DACs that can actually output a full 24 bit of dynamic range... I'm not 100% in the "measurments only" camp, but ASR's tests showing true dynamic range output are eye-opening.
even more so with the typical room having a 40-50dbSPL noise floor and threshold of pain, ears bleed at 120dbSPL, most environments can't allow more than 70-80db of dynamic range before hearing loss. So 60DB is often the real world limit.
24 bits gives you more space before the audio signal starts to clip
"the human ear only hear about 120dB" - not for long! 120dB SPL will damage you.
Got an entry level r2r and I'm never going back to chip
I even dare to say that I'll always be able to tell the difference in a blind test
Which one did you get?
@@henrym78 the Musician Draco
My budget falls somewhere between "cheap" $500 delta-sigma and the R2R Denafrips Ares II at $880. Everyone raves about the more natural tonality and soundstage of the Ares II (for the price). My questions are why and how? Why is this "older" technology surpassing "newer" technology in qualities we care about? What is going on electrically?
I know Chinese labor is cheap, hence these R2R DACs are mostly available from there, but today's technology is not static. Such surface mount devices like capacitors, resistors, and such should be game for automation in mounting and soldering them in place such that human labor could be minimized. If R2R offers such better sonic advantages, why can't a company here in the West implement a design and roll it out at price points that could compete? I mean, like Rode Microphones uses surface mount technology in producing their very good microphones in Australia and can offer them at competitive prices.
Musician Pegasus :
Proprietary R2R + DSD Architecture
True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)
Low Noise Power Supply
FIFO Buffer
Digital Signal Processing via FPGA
DSD1024, PCM1536 Supports On USB & I2S Input (the audio source needs to be compatible with the native interface)
Proprietary USB Audio Solution via STM32F446 Advanced AMR Based MCU
Licensed Thesycon USB Driver For Windows Platform
Driverless On Mac & Linux
DSD
DSD64-DoP On All Input
DSD1024 On USB & I2S Input
PCM
24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Input
1536kHz On USB & I2S Input
I need to hear one of these. I'm think it'll be my next DAC.
Why would you need any more than 96 dB dynamic range?
Because otherwise it becomes to difficult to sell power cables.
@@hugobloemers4425 lol
Because we need more just in case?
@@salvadorrodenas3071 it's because of how steep you can put in a low pass filter at the output. 24 bit provides you with more playing room. the way you implement the low pass filter will slightly alter the way the dac sounds, in a way you can say a well designed 24 bit sounds "faster" than a 16 bit one with an identical input signal.
why can't you run two parallels 16 bit ladder splitting it up and on the output combine it to one 32bit. why would that not work?
Mathematically they don't add like that. As such you might end up with another 2 bits or so, but nowhere near 32.
R2R can’t do 24 bit? Please elaborate. I like your videos but sometimes you seem waaaaay out of touch.
From Ivan Matko and others in reply to Jeremy Blanchard above: For what I know the issue is resistor technology, for 24bit R2R u get to very small values with high precision that it's impossible to produce.
And voltage values get to nano volts on on the 24th bit, practically 0V...very, very small.
It’s also limited by material science. It’s a bit like asking for a ruler that has a length as precise as 0.1 nano meter. It won’t be possible because the length will always vary due to temperature and a 0.1nm tolerance is down to a single atom which will be impossible to produce and unstable due to corrosion. Resistors likewise also can’t be made with infinite precision due to material science limitations. But it’s alright as even the most excellent audio can be achieved with 20 bits. Those 4 extra bits are bogus resolution that never can be used for a practical purpose anyway. So why is audio jumping from 16 to 24 bits? Because we segment data in bytes and 16 bits are made of 2 bytes while 24 bits are made of 3 bytes.
And hardest of all: For every bit you add you increase the precision (number of voltage steps) of the signal to twice. At some point when adding bits those steps get so tiny that noise, thermal drift and component tolerances from those resistors will be more than the step itself being added.
*from Terry and me
If you are referring to what Paul says at 0:50, then he was using correct English when he said "Terry and I".
When somebody invents a hi-fi that can be turned on you have a high quality sound without any warm up that would be cool. Mine takes around 6 hours and I don't have the time
Unless there is something in your statement that I am not getting, what you are saying makes no sense, not even a little sense. High quality sound takes 6 hours? you either have a defective system or defective ears.
@@The_Story_Channel or mind?😂😂😉
Does anyone have a resource that could explain why an R2R can't do 24bit, like Paul says in this video? I did a quick Google search but didn't find anything explaining why 24bit isn't possible. TIA
For what I know the issue is resistor tehnology, for 24bit R2R u get to very small values with high precision that its impossible to produce
And voltage values get to nano volts on on the 24th bit, practily 0V
For every bit you add you increase the precision (number of voltage steps) of the signal to twice. At some point when adding bits those steps get so tiny that noise, thermal drift and component tolerances from those resistors will be more than the step itself being added.
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like it is theoretically possible but practically not feasible.
@@officerockstar It’s also limited by material science. It’s a bit like asking for a ruler that has a length as precise as 0.1 nano meter. It won’t be possible because the length will always vary due to temperature and a 0.1nm tolerance is down to a single atom which will be impossible to produce and unstable due to corrosion. Resistors likewise also can’t be made with infinite precision due to material science limitations. But it’s alright as even the most excellent audio can be achieved with 20 bits. Those 4 extra bits are bogus resolution that never can be used for a practical purpose anyway. So why is audio jumping from 16 to 24 bits? Because we segment data in bytes and 16 bits are made of 2 bytes while 24 bits are made of 3 bytes.
Try this. 2 volt peak line level. one bit would 2 volt swing. 2 bits, a 1 volt and 2 volt representation. 4 bits would drop to .5 volt differences. 8 bits would drop to a .25 volt difference. 16 bits to a .125v difference. 24 bits to a .083v difference. The difference between levels becomes so small no electronics in existence can generate that small of a difference. Transistors require .6v (eb) to fire. So to even working with 22 bit if you use a 10v rail for existing hardware (24 bits becomes .55v difference) and then reduce the analog out to 2v, anything past 22 bits is inaudible.
I swear only China makes R2R dacs right now...especially after the whole issue with the States not allowing them the ability to the American chip market
Soekris makes them in Denmark
doesnt all delta sigma dacs oversample everything to a degree. R2R are only dacs that can do true NOS
Akm is one million miles ahead from ess, Akm is the best
I never really liked digital from the start. So are we going from saying PCM is not cool to saying Bitstream is cool and DSD cooler and now PCM is cool again
If if you want the word to be 8 then the 2 bit and 4 bit will be off.
Don't spill this rubbish Paul. No DAC offers more than 20 bits of precision. The SNR is simply not enough
The Denafrips Pontus 2 quotes a max bit rate of 24/192 and is an R2R ladder Dac.
Kind of. The the fpga inside can handle 24 bit info but the actual ladder can't output it. This video gives a good explanation th-cam.com/video/a1a8l0-yDok/w-d-xo.html
Ladder DACS. It’s common sense. Possible in 2-5 years it will be otherwise. Please prove I am wrong?
R-2R DAC sounds old to me, like a DAC from the early 90s.
The higher end ones have resolution and dont sound like 90s DACs.
I agree, they lack punch in the bass compared to Delta-Sigma.
3 minutes in and off on at least three tangents ..
This is a train wreck of a video. That’s as wrong as it is misleading.
Criticism without explanation is just an old man yelling at clouds.