I understand the Church not rejecting them, but I also don’t see why the church should support them in any way. Saying “nothing obstructs” is basically passive support. The worst is making them part of the church calendar and feasts, this is basically the church pushing them on the faithful even though the church says we don’t have to believe in them.
I can’t imagine any mother appearing to only a few of her children and telling them that she will never appear to any of her other children around the world, ever again, “just cuz…” That’s the moment my mommy radar went up and when I started having a talk with the podcast.
I did my own research on Medjugorie many years ago. With much less information than Jimmy provided, I came to basically the same conclusion. Good to know that I have fairly good instincts, I guess.
@Travis-tx7um There's more evidence for than against, and it's a scientific question, not a theological one.(with the caveat that it doesn't exclude God's authorship)
@patricktinley6545 yeah I get the thought. But in humani generus polygenism was condemned (jimmy might point out that this is a disciplinary condemnation and not a doctrinal one, but in entertaining the notion one violates papal teaching nonetheless). I asked Trent about this once and he said he believes that Cain and Seth married pre humanoids rather than their sisters. Beastiality is a necessary conclusion from evolution. But maybe I'm a fundamentalist for believing scripture, I don't know
I find Medugorje really disturbing and I'll genuinely disappointed in the outcome of the investigation, but I'm not surprised. Being charitable, I think it's likely that the investigation was leaning towards giving the seers way more credit than would make sense in another situation because of how big Medugorje has been able to become in the internet age. It really feels like the church has lost control of the situation and is trying to get ahead of it in a way that doesn't damage the faith of the many many believers with sincere and fruitful devotions to it now.
Two and a half hours! Christmas came early. Thank you for your videos, Jimmy. You are my role model, and if I was still a wee lad, I would say, "You are what I want to be when I grow Always continue this ministry of yours that has utterly changed my life. Love and greetings from South Africa, Dan.
PERSONAL NOTES: 0:00:00 Introduction 0:04:43 Analysis of arguments in favour of Medjugorje being a supernatural phenomena. 1:05:09 Analysis of arguments against Medjugorje being a supernatural phenomena. 2:13:14 The Bottom Line
Great episode! I find it hard believing that stage 1 might be authentic if stage 2 isn’t. If the visionaries are mistaken, lying, or manipulated now in stage 2, who’s to say they weren’t also mistaken, lying, or manipulated in stage 1?
It's chilling if true. To think that a person who looked the Blessed Virgin the face could carry on the largest hoax the Church has ever known, deceiving millions of Catholics for decades. It's nauseating. It would be better for their sakes if phases 1 and 2 had both been hoaxes all along. If Phase 1 was true but Phase 2 is false and known to be false by the so-called seers, then they are wicked.
Thank you‼️😊 Jimmy. Since the 1990’s when I first heard of Medjugorje, I have described myself as “agnostic” on its authenticity, waiting for the Church’s decision. I thought that, MAYBE Our Lady had appeared to the seers, but I had serious doubts about the visions continuing for so many years. Three of our parishioners have been to Medjugorje (one of whom made yearly pilgrimages) and all had very positive experiences. As Jesus said, “Where two or three are gathered in my Name, there am I”.
Great show as usual! Thank you for a good honest review of this topic. Can’t wait for next week! Have a great day and a wonderful weekend! And to everyone who is celebrating next week, Happy Thanksgiving! God bless all who listen and watch Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World!!!
This is the first I heard of this event. Seems like the fruits are net positive, and I like how the church really takes its time deciding on the matter.
Gotta disagree about the fruits- there’s been tons of miracles and unlikely conversions (like of people who were dragged there by family) reported, as well as unlikely vocations to priesthood or religious life. Fr. Michael Lightner’s conversation comes to mind. I also recall a story I heard about a priest who volunteered to hear confessions there, and who spent a long time counseling a young woman from Ukraine, who had been contemplating self-deletion when she came to Medjugorie. After hearing her confession, he complimented her on her excellent English. She replied with confusion that she couldn’t speak English; he and she had been both speaking Ukranian. Whatever is going on in the hearts and minds of the purported visionaries, God seems to be using the faith, hope, and devotion of the pilgrims to work some wonderful things.
Thank you very much for your analysis of Medjugorje. I really hope that in the future you decide to analyze the Apparitions at Garabandal. I know a lot more about Garabandal and as I listened to this episode and tested the criteria in favour and against Garabandal being supernatural, it seems to me that Garabandal has a lot more legitimacy on it being of supernatural origin.
To Mr. Akin. Thank you! I'm very grateful for the hard work and effort you put into this video (and others). The details are really relevant and interesting. I have been fascinated with with this story of the visionaries since I was a little girl. Myself and my siblings (we are 80s kids) have been following this since the very beginning. I anxiously listen to every word. Following. You've just saved me hours and hours of reading 📚. Thank you for blessing me with all the knowledge shared.
Longtime subscriber here, but new using this ID. I appreciate Jimmy's analysis, and had already come to pretty much the same conclusion. I'll quote Sister Lucia when she was asked what the Fatima messages mean. She replied, "That's for the Church to determine."
@atrifle8364 I do listen to things on 1.5x fairly often, but honestly, I don't even want to do that for this episode. I do 1.5x for videos where I think that people are rambling or wasting time. Jimmy doesn't ramble, he goes right to the good stuff. So I think 1.0x speed will be my preference on this one. I'm an hour in so far!
@@NontradicathLooking forward to you becoming Catholic again! I have struggled with scruples before also, but there is a way out of it and still remaining Catholic. Did you catch the Father Dan Reehil interview recently btw?
Sometimes they play a recording of the Rosary before Mass at my church, and I am pretty sure last time someone had it on the fast speed setting by mistake. We would still be asking for Mary to pray for us sinners and the next Hail Mary would start already. 😂
40:25 Thank you very much for this information. When I attended Teacher's College, about 15+ years ago, I was taught about _different learning styles._ After teaching for a few years, I began to suspect that this theory about _different learning styles_ was simply false. I am glad to know that there is now scientific evidence debunking this ridiculous theory.
I went to Teacher's college in 2008 and was exposed to the same theory at length. Glad to see that it has fallen out of fashion because the implications for the classroom placed an unbearable burden on the teacher.
Thanks Jimmy! I was at university in the eighties when Medjugorye became well-known. I have to agree with you there was really a sense of the supernatural then but over the years that assurance faded. God bless!
Excellent three-part series! I enjoyed this video very much! I don't know how I feel about phase 1, but I feel better about phase 2 not being supernatural. Thank you for this lovely series!
If their spiritual director who later started his own church was the one writing the messages down, it's possible he inserted his own messages and convinced the seers that they were just forgetting them once they were written down.
Someone I knew growing up, maybe 25 years my senior, went from being an indifferent Catholic and not particularly kind to his wife to being an active Catholic and a much better husband. I know a priest who was considering leaving the priesthood but stayed and felt renewed. Both say that visiting Medjugorje was at the core of the changes in them.
Deindividuation? Social Conformity? It’s easier for people with a certain disposition to change their lives when they have expectations. Whether you are conscience of it or not, when you pay a hundreds of dollars to fly to a place to have an experience, what do you think the outcome will be? There are also people who have had a spiritual awakening because they’ve seen the face of christ on a burnt piece of toast.
I know lots of people who have strengthened their faith in Christ by attending Pentecostal rock concerts. This does not prove their denomination is true or right.
I have been there once.when i returned home to normal life, everything i wished for turn the opposite.i broke up with my wife, children, etc..I just hope for the seers sake, they are truelly telling the Truth.
I really appreciate Jimmy’s meticulous and objective approach on the various topics. He may want to draw from a larger pool of readers, if possible. I kept hearing the Zodiac in this episode (lol).
I've been wondering about the visitations at Medjugorje for years and I appreciate your even-handed analysis of this alleged phenomenon. My personal take is that yes there are many positive fruits for people who have visited Medjugorje (I know quite a few people who have gone), but I'm not in any hurry to go myself. I'm still skeptical.
Jimmy, as usual you have done an excellent job here. And I'm grateful for your deep research, openness, and balanced approach. I was in high school when the Medjugorje apparitions began, and they made a big impact on me. I took up fasting on bread and water on Wednesdays and Fridays and tried to pray the rosary daily from the heart, so those were good fruits. Later, however, my husband and I begin to have doubts about the validity of the ongoing apparitions which just went on and on for so many years on a daily basis. I decided to focus more on the Lord and his Church, being spurred on at times by the messages of Fatima which have been declared valid. But there were two things that I personally witnessed that I found favorable. 1) My college roommate showed me a photo that a friend of her parents had taken during an apparition he witnessed in Medjugorje, in which a very lovely woman appeared, a little bit at an angle. He said that he did not see her himself, and was surprised to see her when the photograph was developed. I had seen other photos, with a similar backstory, and the lady looked the same. 2) In 1987, I was a college student in Italy for a semester, and took the opportunity to visit Medjugorie during spring break. While there, a lot of people were saying, "Look! there's a disk in front of the sun!" I looked and didn't see what I expected from the word "disk". But I did notice that the sun looked different: I could see a defined circle that had a matte rather than a shiny appearance. Also there was no glare or pain in looking at it. Nevertheless I kept looking down to protect my eyes after a few seconds and then looking back up at it, meanwhile wondering how long can you usually look at the sun? When I've tried looking at the sun in the years since then, I've realized I can't look at the sun at all--at least not more than for a split second. Even during the full eclipse last April, I could not look at the sun without eclipse glasses as long as I looked at it in Medjugorje. 3) Later I was at a charismatic convention at which Ivan was supposed to speak, but his talk was canceled at the last minute as war had just broken out in Bosnia Herzegovina and he wanted to go home. I was told that it was exactly the tenth anniversary of the beginning of the messages. (I admit though that I may be mistaken about or misremembering how exact the anniversary actually was.) It struck me as something in favor of the apparitions' authenticity. To hear that the Church and you, Jimmy, think it likely that the initial apparitions were authentic but later ones not so, makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure that the dividing line for all of the visionaries was a mere 10 days after they began, but it makes sense that something went awry over time. May the Lord watch over, guide, bless, and bring home the seers, their families and communities, and all the pilgrims who go there seeking Him with an open heart.
Vistka's explanation of her reaction to being poked makes no sense. She barely moved, and didn't move her hands at all. If I thought baby Jesus was falling, I would leap forward with hands outstretched.
It makes so little sense that I think it might actually be evidence that she is not lying. Maybe she was only told she moved during the trance and she had no idea what they were talking about. So she just thinks back to her visions and assumes it must have been this especially emotional part. Like Jimmy said, if she was lying, it would be easy to come up with a better lie. Not really sure though, just a thought.
@roinois Yeah I was thinking the same thing. She may not even have known what he was talking about. And her reaction may have been automatic by her subconscious without her even knowing about it.
Btch is lying. She was almost poked in the eye, she subtly moved her head back. That's not ecstasy as experienced by true seers. If there was a falling baby, she would have outstretched her hands and gasp.
I’ve been thinking that if I was that close to Mary that she needed to trust me with her son that I would join an order. No other experience in the world would comparable.
Thanks to both of you, that was absolutely fascinating and must have taken a lot of work. Very much appreciated! In terms of Jimmy's conclusion that there may be something to the first very small set of apparitions, but doubtful on phase 2. If we conclude that phase 2 (40,000+ messages) is most likely human agency, would this not show the alleged seers to be untrustworthy or at least doubtful as witnesses to the truthfulness of phase 1? Furthermore, Jimmy based his tentative view on phase 1 on the findings of the Ruini commission but, as far as I am aware, the Ruini commission is simply advisory and has no actual authority in the matter, and Pope Francis has withheld his approval on its findings. Does the Ruini commission have any more authority than the original findings of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Bishop's conference that ruled 40/41 in favour of no evidence of supernatural if memory serves? If we are basing tentative findings on a claim of authority would it not be more prudent to go with the original Bishops' findings above an advisory commission? Just my thoughts. God bless both of you!
The last book published posthumously by the late, great Michael Davies was enough to convince me. His wife was from that part of the world and had added insight into all the complexities involved.
My objections: 1. Context. The disobedient Franciscans were in charge pastorally of the spiritual formation of the seers BEFORE the apparitions started, they were the parish priests and pastors, they 'birthed' the 'diabolical atmosphere' or historical context in which the phenomenon occurred. This highly significant role should not be downplayed in any analysis. 2. The Cross. The theology of 'tough love' is conspicuously absent from both the phenomenon and from the conclusions drawn. Infantilism is the order of the day for the ongoing preservation of control over the phenomenon, and avoidance of crisis and chaos that would ensue following a totally negative judgement. Souls must be 'saved' by removing such a cross, rather than through allowing the cross to do its salvific work. This only benefits one being, and we all know who he is. 3. Consequences. A. Missed opportunity to learn from and teach about failure in the spiritual battle, this will be delayed by a generation, preventing current repentance and conversion and strengthening/maturing in the spiritual life. B. Facilitation of the ongoing spin off from the phenomenon, such as money laundering. C. Undermining of Church authority, credibility and discernment, for socio/political short term goals rather than long term spiritual goals. Conclusion: The lone prophetic voice interpreting such events is the more reliable voice than that of the majority consensus. cf 1Kings 22
Thx Jimmy for the breadth of resources you've collected for people to make their own determination. The popularity with bishops is interesting. While not relevant as criteria, it is the norm for promoters of visionaries to promote what in marketing we call the rub-off effect. Moral by association. With that said, it would be interesting to compare those numbers to the number of bishops who visit Lourdes and Fatima annually, two sites properly managed by the Church. It also raises question why Medjugorje bishop hasn't instituted the customary process for reviewing reputed miracles on-site. That would have at least provided some data for those who experience an immediate healing of some sort.
I think either both phases must be supernatural, or neither of them are. Why would Mary legitimately appear in phase one, but then disappear and allow falsehood/corruption/scandal to take over? They are either telling the truth about both phases, or lying about both phases. After hearing about Tomislav, and Mary's supposed praise of him, I would strongly lean towards the latter (and I say that as someone who had no real opinion beforehand). But it seems simple enough to just wait and see. The seers made some extremely bold predictions, which should come true within my lifetime if this is legitimate. Until then, I'm staying away.
In A Still Small Voice, by Benedict Groeschel, he explains the difference between false revelations and fraudulent revelations. False revelations are when the visionary believes it's supernatural but are mistaken. That doesn't mean they are lying or everything they say is wrong. GroescheI explains this in the book.
I kind of allow for the possibility that Phase 1 was supernatural, but believe that it is not. I believe strongly that Phase 2 is fraudulent. It is possible that there is a mix of supernatural and fraudulent elements, but I doubt it.
@@susan6722 Ok, but whether it's lying or just mistaken, I think my question is still valid: Why would it be real in phase one, but then Mary disappears and allows confusion to take over in phase two? I would still find it likely that they were either mistaken in both phases, or both phases were real. But not some sort of in-between.
@ the voice actor who does all of the experts also did the voice work for the Zodiac killer and did such a good job his voice remains locked in my mind as the Zodiac killer.
I'm still highly skeptical. I grew up knowing about this with people around me who are big time believers of Medjugorje and I've always found it convenient. It's always rumors about what happened but nothing clearly supernatural that would make me change my mind and be like.. "hmm something weird is def going on." Based on this, I'm still of the opinion that they have concoted an elaborate lie and now they don't even know how to get out of it. I don't think they're bad people but certainly have a lot to fess up.
I have visited Medjugorje myself in 2009 shortly before I joined the Church and studied it on and off over the years. I've come to the same conclusion. In spite of all the fruits, at the the heart of Medjugorje there is a big lie. A lie that has gotten so big that no one knows how to stop it and even the Vatican is forced to go along with it to a certain extent.
Thanks as always for an informative and thoughtful investigation, Jimmy. I listened to the three segments, but it's possible that I missed some details. I apologize if you made reference to this already and for my redundancy. There is another detail regarding the "secrets" and the lives of the visionaries that I found in a recent book written by one of the seers. It looks as though at least one of the visionaries doesn't seem to think that all of them will be alive when the 10 secrets are revealed. In her autobiography, "My Heart Will Triumph," Mirjana seems to consider the possibility that she may not be alive during the revealing of the 10 secrets. I'll leave the direct quotes from the book in this comment. Blessings to you and all your wonderful work! quotes: (pg. 141, "My Heart Will Triumph" by Mirjana Soldo) "Many people wondered why Our Lady gave me the parchment. Some assumed it was so I would not forget the secrets, but that's not accurate...I interpreted the parchment differently--its existence means that I do not necessarily have to be alive to reveal the secrets. Otherwise I would be too privileged. If they were not written, it would mean that I could not die today, and that I'm guaranteed to be alive when the time comes to reveal them. No human being lives forever, and no one is invincible...(ibid., pg. 142)..."People have asked me how I cope with the burden of the secrets, but I often think that the secrets burden others more than they do me. The people who are concerned about the secrets have not seen Our Lady and do not know about God's complete project -- why Our Lady comes here at all, or what she's preparing us for. But if your life is in her hands, and God is in your heart, what can harm you? If everyone knew me and could see How much I laugh and joke, no one would be afraid of the secrets...I cannot divulge much more about the secrets, but I can say this--Our Lady is planning to change the world. She did not come to announce our destruction; she came to save us, and with her Son, she will triumph over evil."
This is very helpful actually. I heard personal and public testimony of the spiritual fruits that ultimately led me to plan a visit next year. Though I’m not 100% convinced and not very informed so I’ll take the Vaticans official stance on this. though it this led me to wonder would I be disappointed regarding my expectation versus reality. But my main take away as you explained if I go with openness to the spiritual benefit the lord might find cause with my petitions. So I plan not necessarily a focus on the apparition or visionaries but perhaps finding the Holy Spirit in a place away from the familiar of my day to day life with prayer and a few spiritual books I’ll bring with me. Also thanks MW for making me aware about the sci fi book pilgrims, I ordered it straight away - it may not be a spiritual book but man to does the premise and the arch of that book have me excited to read.😂
So, if phase 1 is considered supernatural but phase 2 is not then the seers have been running a scam for the past 40 yrs? Doesn't make sense. If they had a true encounter with the Blessed Mother how could they then go on to lie over and over for so many years?
Who knew, it must be divine omniscience to know that Jimmy Akin would pull it all together over the Internet. Thanks Jimmy! Perhaps you answer the first secret by your ability to make sense of our lady Queen of the telegraph, or Internet.
Still take this with a grain of salt.. Even if it was a "real" answer from Mary, and even if you press the wording, it could just mean "that's not relevant to why I'm here so I won't talk about that." Or the "now" could also imply "you might learn the answer some time after you die or at the end of time because God will reveal all creation." Not necessarily talking about living humans on earth gaining this knowledge, or hinting the truth one way or the other.
Alright, I can believe a lot of things, but I can't believe for a second that the Almighty is going to give his most Precious and Beloved Son to a woman who is at any risk of dropping Him. Yeah, no. That seals the deal for me.
It was an obvious lie. And an unforced error, too. She could have said "I don't know how our ecstasies work. Normally we don't see anything but I did see those fingers coming at my eye. Maybe Our Lady allowed me to see that so I could protect myself." That explanation doesn't sound nearly as ridiculous as the explanation she gave and would be impossible to prove either way.
Growing up- my mom and her circle of friends were super into Medjugorje. It was all about the feelings and miracles ect. The doom and gloom and end times talk. The fruits of that was a shallow faith from all of them and a terrible example to their children. I don’t believe Medjugorje is real. I don’t think it’s our Blessed Mother. Just my opinion.
Sorry to hear about the poor examples you experienced, and how it negatively affected their faith later. I do see a bit of a correlation between adamant Medjugorje supporters/defenders and a very “mUh fRuIts!” attitude that isn’t charitably applied to other Church matters. Very openly reverent and faithful, but little showing of love and mercy for others. I believe Jesus referred to such Pharisees as white-washed gravestones. Hope your journey is going well despite the set back 🙏
That is quite a fun story to keep in one’s back pocket. And is soooo true with mischievous kids 😅 I feel like I had heard the saying before, but not sure if it was from a very old Jimmy Akin video or someone else entirely.
Thank you for your work! I am suspicious about the whole second part and the abundance of copies of those daily "messages" on social media do irritate me a lot. People always want something grom Heaven...
Great work, Jimmy. Loved the long format and enjoyed the deep dive. I thought you were WAY more charitable than I could ever be on this. I see the entire decades-long affair as sus from start to finish. It makes me a tiny bit ill to think of how careful the Vatican has had to be-because, in essence, some people are likely to see themselves as “on Mary’s side” and willing to leave the church over a negative ruling. And with so many living seers, what happens to the fruit when one of them finally confesses? Or the rogue priest who started his own religion confesses? It would be another big scandal about those credulous, superstitious Catholics - especially if accompanied by salacious details of this priest and the seers too. It’s such a hornets nest and I don’t think the Blessed Mother can be the start of all this, even in the early phase.
Listened to two full episodes. I would have like Jimmy’s views on the idea of spiritual warfare. If the “seers” did NOT defend themselves as we have see others do, then they were predictably going to run into trouble when the devil’s inevitable assault (always focused on those causing him the most trouble) came. Also, is this war in heaven (that is now played out in large part on earth) not becoming more sophisticated? The demons are not outside of time-so do they not learn? I fear that the faux revelations, while they bring conversions, cause much harm. What will happen to many of these converts when the “magical parchment” fails to materialize? God stand between us and evil. St Michael, defend us. 🙏
1:41:14 validity of the consecration of the world To the IHM? Jimmy should look deeper into that one. Some serious issues surround that one with card bertone.
Thirty years from now nothing will have happened and the excuse will be “ well it doesn’t matter because of muh-good fruits n stuff, and father so and so got his vocation at Medjugorje” 🙄
This is a somewhat depressing series to listen too. Like Jimmy, I've not looked into this until recently. But the more i hear about it the more i have big doubts about it.
It’s hard for me to reconcile a supernatural nature of Phase 1 with a non-supernatural Phase 2. If true, it would seem that the authentic apparitions formed the genesis for every problematic behavior the visionaries and the people around them exhibited in Phase 2. At best, you would have to hold that these people’s encounter with the supernatural was the occasion for subsequent acts of simony, the bearing of false witness and other forms of spiritual exploitation. To arrive at this moral state after only possibly committing genial sins of petty theft or mild disobedience common to most children implies that Heaven could act towards the corruption of Man, rather than his betterment. If that is the authentic outcome of a supernatural act of God, remind me again why I ought to trust in Him? It seems far more tenable that either Phase 1 and Phase 2 are both supernatural or not together, not separately. I could even envision a scenario in which Phase 2 could be authentic while Phase 1 was false. But it seems unavoidable to me that Phase 2 is one of the most consequential fruits of Phase 1, so that if Phase 2 is false, it leads to the whole thing collapsing.
@@dr.tafazziI don't believe this would be a case of middle knowledge. Middle knowledge is knowledge of the future of things that don't exist. For example, God knowing whether or not a person whom He has not created yet would go to Heaven or hell.
I think the fact that they became exceedingly wealthy based on the supposed apparations is troubling Also if Mary said she eould only come 3 times..what does it mean that she comes every day to some of them?
Cardinal Fernandez - a holy and erudite man whose opinions I hold in highest regard!😂 Pray the Rosary, do a Holy Hour and/or become a daily communicant. Save the airfare that a Pilgrimage to Medjugorje cost you and use it as alms for the poor.
Wow, that was a lot of information in two and a half hours. I have to agree with Jimmy and the Vatican. I didn't make up my mind until this episode. Just like Tolkien told CS Lewis, "examine the evidence."
I charitably say the conclusion is ridiculous. You know good and well you wouldn’t trust a car salesman of such dubious character, but people huckstering the Virgin Mary?
I knew it man. It really does sound like the Mormon stuff and I said that in the last video. I just wish the church hadn’t basically endorsed this sham.
As far as making money by allowing pilgrims to stay in their homes: I see it as an act of charity. All these people start visiting. They need a place to stay. We can’t put them up for free but we can afford to house them if they pay something for their stay. I mean, this happens at literally every pilgrimage site around the world.
Medjugorje is too big to fail at this point. It’s obviously fake but now they have to split hairs about phase one being legit, phase two not being legit.. it’s all ridiculous.
I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the analysis of the dancing sun phenomenon you discussed and how that connects to Fatima. If people staring at the sun see the sun dancing in what appears to be a non-supernatural way, then wouldn’t the more logical answer to the Fatima story be that many of the thousands of people who reported seeing the sun dance were just experiencing the same effect and attributed it to the apparition because they came in pre-loaded from the stories about the Mary appearing to the children?
If I’m remembering correctly, the day of the Dancing Sun at Fatima was rainy and people were still pretty wet by the time the miracle started. After the miracle, people and the nearby surroundings were almost to completely dry in a very short period of time, implying the Sun did in fact do something extraordinary. I don’t recall if the children said Mary would do something with the sun or not, as if it was the former then it sets up expectations whiles the latter would leave people open to an idea but not sure what it would be. With the sun stuff at Med, I would definitely be leaning more towards people having minor retinal damage that creates the images. I’ve stared at the sun too long quite a number of times and the eyes does make it appear that it’s pulsing and changing colors. Plus, the earth’s atmosphere also plays a role in how sun particles and rays are perceived by the naked eye. At night some stars look like they are pulsating at the source, but it’s really the light particles getting shifted around as they pass through the atmosphere. Which I’m sure is happening with the sun rays as well at Med. So combining prior expectations, minor retinal damage, natural atmospheric forces, and just testimonies with little to no outside evidence like noticeably hotter areas, I would find the sun phenomenon at Med to be non-supernatural.
@@jendoe9436 Those are good points. I need to review the details at Fatima for other pieces of confirming evidence (like wet things suddenly becoming dry, etc.) but it is true that everyone was gathered because the famous visionary children said that something was going to happen in that place and on that day, even if they didn't specifically attribute it to Mary. Anyways, this is why I find eucharistic miracles more convincing. I've never seen anyone offer a remotely plausible explanation for how human heart tissue would end up in something that has the physical appearance of bread, multiple times in distinct places, with the same characteristics, always under the circumstances of that bread being consecrated as the eucharist.
I’m walking distance from a Catholic parish on a good-sized plot of land. There’s a statue some distance from the church building with a plaque on its plinth stating that it’s on the site of an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, experienced by one of the Medjugorje visionaries at a particular time when she was visiting. I’m just a bit skeptical.
It’s a lovely parish with a lot of faithful people and I often go to daily Mass there when I do go to more than Sunday Mass. Which isn’t as often as it ought to be.
“This is startin’ to sound like Joseph Smith and the golden plates” EXACTLY what came to my mind about the parchment of secrets
I am very very thankful that I do not have to believe in all private revelations to be a faithful practicing Catholic.
Don’t have to believe in any!
I understand the Church not rejecting them, but I also don’t see why the church should support them in any way. Saying “nothing obstructs” is basically passive support. The worst is making them part of the church calendar and feasts, this is basically the church pushing them on the faithful even though the church says we don’t have to believe in them.
I can’t imagine any mother appearing to only a few of her children and telling them that she will never appear to any of her other children around the world, ever again, “just cuz…” That’s the moment my mommy radar went up and when I started having a talk with the podcast.
Very happy you took a deep dive on this. Thank you.
I did my own research on Medjugorie many years ago. With much less information than Jimmy provided, I came to basically the same conclusion. Good to know that I have fairly good instincts, I guess.
Me too
Far too much funny business / shenanigans going on surrounding the events and people.
The chidren of fatima didnt change stories even when they thought they would be bolied in oil.
My entire opinion on this matter is about to be formed by this video.
@TonyKeeh that's basically the same with me lol. What Jimmy thinks is what I think 🤣🤣
So you probably believe in evolution@@IsaRedcup
Me too
@Travis-tx7um There's more evidence for than against, and it's a scientific question, not a theological one.(with the caveat that it doesn't exclude God's authorship)
@patricktinley6545 yeah I get the thought. But in humani generus polygenism was condemned (jimmy might point out that this is a disciplinary condemnation and not a doctrinal one, but in entertaining the notion one violates papal teaching nonetheless). I asked Trent about this once and he said he believes that Cain and Seth married pre humanoids rather than their sisters. Beastiality is a necessary conclusion from evolution.
But maybe I'm a fundamentalist for believing scripture, I don't know
I find Medugorje really disturbing and I'll genuinely disappointed in the outcome of the investigation, but I'm not surprised. Being charitable, I think it's likely that the investigation was leaning towards giving the seers way more credit than would make sense in another situation because of how big Medugorje has been able to become in the internet age. It really feels like the church has lost control of the situation and is trying to get ahead of it in a way that doesn't damage the faith of the many many believers with sincere and fruitful devotions to it now.
Exactly my thoughts. The church seems to be trying to put a leash on the situation without alienating the rabid devotees.
@@owlintrenchcoat the Spirit moves where the Spirit wills
Very, very good point.
The presentation of information is well thought through and measured; worth the time to get through it.
This whole -dropping-baby-Jesus thing is extremely sus
Yeah, I don't see Our Lady being a butterfingers in general, let alone with the Child Jesus.
I don't have time to listen to long episodes on TH-cam... since I spend all my time on Jimmy's Mysterious World
Two and a half hours! Christmas came early.
Thank you for your videos, Jimmy. You are my role model, and if I was still a wee lad, I would say, "You are what I want to be when I grow
Always continue this ministry of yours that has utterly changed my life.
Love and greetings from South Africa,
Dan.
PERSONAL NOTES:
0:00:00 Introduction
0:04:43 Analysis of arguments in favour of Medjugorje being a supernatural phenomena.
1:05:09 Analysis of arguments against Medjugorje being a supernatural phenomena.
2:13:14 The Bottom Line
Great episode! I find it hard believing that stage 1 might be authentic if stage 2 isn’t. If the visionaries are mistaken, lying, or manipulated now in stage 2, who’s to say they weren’t also mistaken, lying, or manipulated in stage 1?
It's chilling if true. To think that a person who looked the Blessed Virgin the face could carry on the largest hoax the Church has ever known, deceiving millions of Catholics for decades. It's nauseating. It would be better for their sakes if phases 1 and 2 had both been hoaxes all along. If Phase 1 was true but Phase 2 is false and known to be false by the so-called seers, then they are wicked.
@MattBurrill I agree! It raises serious, sobering questions
EXACTLY
Thank you‼️😊 Jimmy. Since the 1990’s when I first heard of Medjugorje, I have described myself as “agnostic” on its authenticity, waiting for the Church’s decision. I thought that, MAYBE Our Lady had appeared to the seers, but I had serious doubts about the visions continuing for so many years. Three of our parishioners have been to Medjugorje (one of whom made yearly pilgrimages) and all had very positive experiences. As Jesus said, “Where two or three are gathered in my Name, there am I”.
Been looking forward to this, good build up with the first two parts!
Great show as usual! Thank you for a good honest review of this topic. Can’t wait for next week! Have a great day and a wonderful weekend! And to everyone who is celebrating next week, Happy Thanksgiving! God bless all who listen and watch Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World!!!
Thanks, may God bless you, too!
This is the first I heard of this event. Seems like the fruits are net positive, and I like how the church really takes its time deciding on the matter.
The only fruits of Medjugorje are fruitcakes. A lot of those!
Gotta disagree about the fruits- there’s been tons of miracles and unlikely conversions (like of people who were dragged there by family) reported, as well as unlikely vocations to priesthood or religious life. Fr. Michael Lightner’s conversation comes to mind. I also recall a story I heard about a priest who volunteered to hear confessions there, and who spent a long time counseling a young woman from Ukraine, who had been contemplating self-deletion when she came to Medjugorie. After hearing her confession, he complimented her on her excellent English. She replied with confusion that she couldn’t speak English; he and she had been both speaking Ukranian.
Whatever is going on in the hearts and minds of the purported visionaries, God seems to be using the faith, hope, and devotion of the pilgrims to work some wonderful things.
Thank you very much for your analysis of Medjugorje. I really hope that in the future you decide to analyze the Apparitions at Garabandal. I know a lot more about Garabandal and as I listened to this episode and tested the criteria in favour and against Garabandal being supernatural, it seems to me that Garabandal has a lot more legitimacy on it being of supernatural origin.
To Mr. Akin. Thank you! I'm very grateful for the hard work and effort you put into this video (and others). The details are really relevant and interesting. I have been fascinated with with this story of the visionaries since I was a little girl. Myself and my siblings (we are 80s kids) have been following this since the very beginning. I anxiously listen to every word. Following. You've just saved me hours and hours of reading 📚. Thank you for blessing me with all the knowledge shared.
Longtime subscriber here, but new using this ID. I appreciate Jimmy's analysis, and had already come to pretty much the same conclusion. I'll quote Sister Lucia when she was asked what the Fatima messages mean. She replied, "That's for the Church to determine."
Very great work Jimmy! Thank you!
Two and a half hours??? My body is ready!
1.5 speed is your friend!
@atrifle8364 I do listen to things on 1.5x fairly often, but honestly, I don't even want to do that for this episode. I do 1.5x for videos where I think that people are rambling or wasting time. Jimmy doesn't ramble, he goes right to the good stuff. So I think 1.0x speed will be my preference on this one. I'm an hour in so far!
@@NontradicathLooking forward to you becoming Catholic again! I have struggled with scruples before also, but there is a way out of it and still remaining Catholic. Did you catch the Father Dan Reehil interview recently btw?
@@CherubimCreations I look forward to that too! And no I haven't seen that, who is Fr Reehil?
Sometimes they play a recording of the Rosary before Mass at my church, and I am pretty sure last time someone had it on the fast speed setting by mistake. We would still be asking for Mary to pray for us sinners and the next Hail Mary would start already. 😂
I'm excited for this one!
@Jimmy Akin. Thank you. God bless you.
40:25 Thank you very much for this information. When I attended Teacher's College, about 15+ years ago, I was taught about _different learning styles._ After teaching for a few years, I began to suspect that this theory about _different learning styles_ was simply false. I am glad to know that there is now scientific evidence debunking this ridiculous theory.
I went to Teacher's college in 2008 and was exposed to the same theory at length. Glad to see that it has fallen out of fashion because the implications for the classroom placed an unbearable burden on the teacher.
The messages ate something you can find on a daily aspirations calendar
Thanks Jimmy! I was at university in the eighties when Medjugorye became well-known. I have to agree with you there was really a sense of the supernatural then but over the years that assurance faded. God bless!
Thanks to point out the facts, you made a great research, I was very interested on this issue.
Great episode. Very educational and logical.
God bless you for tacking such a complex topic! My head is spinning 😵💫
Complex? Lol! It's been a proven hoax since the 1980's thousands of times.
This whole series was excellent. Thanks, Jimmy!
Love it jimmy ❤ thanks for saying your view on things 🎉 keep up the great work Jimmy and Dom🎉🎉🎉
Excellent three-part series! I enjoyed this video very much! I don't know how I feel about phase 1, but I feel better about phase 2 not being supernatural. Thank you for this lovely series!
Please do Juan Diego and the Virgin of Guadalupe.
I don't think that would be necessary. That is an approved apparition. There is no mystery there.
There is a huge mystery there. I would love to hear the history and context of Guadeloupe with Jimmy’s ultra detailed research.
If their spiritual director who later started his own church was the one writing the messages down, it's possible he inserted his own messages and convinced the seers that they were just forgetting them once they were written down.
Super congrats on episode 339. Fast approaching episode 350. An incredible accomplishment!
Someone I knew growing up, maybe 25 years my senior, went from being an indifferent Catholic and not particularly kind to his wife to being an active Catholic and a much better husband. I know a priest who was considering leaving the priesthood but stayed and felt renewed. Both say that visiting Medjugorje was at the core of the changes in them.
Deindividuation? Social Conformity? It’s easier for people with a certain disposition to change their lives when they have expectations. Whether you are conscience of it or not, when you pay a hundreds of dollars to fly to a place to have an experience, what do you think the outcome will be? There are also people who have had a spiritual awakening because they’ve seen the face of christ on a burnt piece of toast.
I know lots of people who have strengthened their faith in Christ by attending Pentecostal rock concerts. This does not prove their denomination is true or right.
And those could be very real fruits. However that doesn’t necessarily mean that this apparition is supernatural.
Such a great and thorough analysis! Thank you, Jimmy!
Laughed out loud at Jimmy's quip at the end, "Deja vu.... Deja vu."
Thank you for this! I feel like I have much more clarity and some level of closure.
First!😂 Love these videos Jimmy such a sober take!
I have been there once.when i returned home to normal life, everything i wished for turn the opposite.i broke up with my wife, children, etc..I just hope for the seers sake, they are truelly telling the Truth.
I am surprised that there was no mention of Donal Foley's work. His book includes translations of the audio tapes of the first series of messages.
I really appreciate Jimmy’s meticulous and objective approach on the various topics. He may want to draw from a larger pool of readers, if possible. I kept hearing the Zodiac in this episode (lol).
I've been wondering about the visitations at Medjugorje for years and I appreciate your even-handed analysis of this alleged phenomenon. My personal take is that yes there are many positive fruits for people who have visited Medjugorje (I know quite a few people who have gone), but I'm not in any hurry to go myself. I'm still skeptical.
Jimmy, as usual you have done an excellent job here. And I'm grateful for your deep research, openness, and balanced approach.
I was in high school when the Medjugorje apparitions began, and they made a big impact on me. I took up fasting on bread and water on Wednesdays and Fridays and tried to pray the rosary daily from the heart, so those were good fruits.
Later, however, my husband and I begin to have doubts about the validity of the ongoing apparitions which just went on and on for so many years on a daily basis. I decided to focus more on the Lord and his Church, being spurred on at times by the messages of Fatima which have been declared valid.
But there were two things that I personally witnessed that I found favorable.
1) My college roommate showed me a photo that a friend of her parents had taken during an apparition he witnessed in Medjugorje, in which a very lovely woman appeared, a little bit at an angle. He said that he did not see her himself, and was surprised to see her when the photograph was developed. I had seen other photos, with a similar backstory, and the lady looked the same.
2) In 1987, I was a college student in Italy for a semester, and took the opportunity to visit Medjugorie during spring break. While there, a lot of people were saying, "Look! there's a disk in front of the sun!" I looked and didn't see what I expected from the word "disk". But I did notice that the sun looked different: I could see a defined circle that had a matte rather than a shiny appearance. Also there was no glare or pain in looking at it. Nevertheless I kept looking down to protect my eyes after a few seconds and then looking back up at it, meanwhile wondering how long can you usually look at the sun? When I've tried looking at the sun in the years since then, I've realized I can't look at the sun at all--at least not more than for a split second. Even during the full eclipse last April, I could not look at the sun without eclipse glasses as long as I looked at it in Medjugorje.
3) Later I was at a charismatic convention at which Ivan was supposed to speak, but his talk was canceled at the last minute as war had just broken out in Bosnia Herzegovina and he wanted to go home. I was told that it was exactly the tenth anniversary of the beginning of the messages. (I admit though that I may be mistaken about or misremembering how exact the anniversary actually was.) It struck me as something in favor of the apparitions' authenticity.
To hear that the Church and you, Jimmy, think it likely that the initial apparitions were authentic but later ones not so, makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure that the dividing line for all of the visionaries was a mere 10 days after they began, but it makes sense that something went awry over time.
May the Lord watch over, guide, bless, and bring home the seers, their families and communities, and all the pilgrims who go there seeking Him with an open heart.
Sitting here enjoying some Jimmy Akin's Famous Breakfast Sausage and 🍳 eggs.
Vistka's explanation of her reaction to being poked makes no sense. She barely moved, and didn't move her hands at all. If I thought baby Jesus was falling, I would leap forward with hands outstretched.
It makes so little sense that I think it might actually be evidence that she is not lying. Maybe she was only told she moved during the trance and she had no idea what they were talking about. So she just thinks back to her visions and assumes it must have been this especially emotional part. Like Jimmy said, if she was lying, it would be easy to come up with a better lie. Not really sure though, just a thought.
@@roinois Children will come up with any manner of silly, unlikely lies when put on the spot.
@roinois Yeah I was thinking the same thing. She may not even have known what he was talking about. And her reaction may have been automatic by her subconscious without her even knowing about it.
Btch is lying. She was almost poked in the eye, she subtly moved her head back. That's not ecstasy as experienced by true seers. If there was a falling baby, she would have outstretched her hands and gasp.
I’ve been thinking that if I was that close to Mary that she needed to trust me with her son that I would join an order. No other experience in the world would comparable.
Jimmy has an awesome " Lord of The Rings " beard going on. ⚔️
Great observation! Question is Dwarven beard? Or Wizard beard?
Some fans call him Gandalf the Red.
Awesome! He’s got the pipe too! So be it! Gandalf The Red!
Thanks to both of you, that was absolutely fascinating and must have taken a lot of work. Very much appreciated!
In terms of Jimmy's conclusion that there may be something to the first very small set of apparitions, but doubtful on phase 2. If we conclude that phase 2 (40,000+ messages) is most likely human agency, would this not show the alleged seers to be untrustworthy or at least doubtful as witnesses to the truthfulness of phase 1?
Furthermore, Jimmy based his tentative view on phase 1 on the findings of the Ruini commission but, as far as I am aware, the Ruini commission is simply advisory and has no actual authority in the matter, and Pope Francis has withheld his approval on its findings. Does the Ruini commission have any more authority than the original findings of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Bishop's conference that ruled 40/41 in favour of no evidence of supernatural if memory serves? If we are basing tentative findings on a claim of authority would it not be more prudent to go with the original Bishops' findings above an advisory commission? Just my thoughts. God bless both of you!
What could have happened is that it started out as supernatural, and then they were influenced by that priest to turn it into a fraud.
The last book published posthumously by the late, great Michael Davies was enough to convince me. His wife was from that part of the world and had added insight into all the complexities involved.
Enjoyed very much this episode, thanks!
I'd like to know Jimmy's explanation about the house of Loreto
As someone who lives in the vicinity, I was always skeptic about Međugorje as well.
My objections: 1. Context. The disobedient Franciscans were in charge pastorally of the spiritual formation of the seers BEFORE the apparitions started, they were the parish priests and pastors, they 'birthed' the 'diabolical atmosphere' or historical context in which the phenomenon occurred. This highly significant role should not be downplayed in any analysis.
2. The Cross. The theology of 'tough love' is conspicuously absent from both the phenomenon and from the conclusions drawn. Infantilism is the order of the day for the ongoing preservation of control over the phenomenon, and avoidance of crisis and chaos that would ensue following a totally negative judgement. Souls must be 'saved' by removing such a cross, rather than through allowing the cross to do its salvific work. This only benefits one being, and we all know who he is.
3. Consequences. A. Missed opportunity to learn from and teach about failure in the spiritual battle, this will be delayed by a generation, preventing current repentance and conversion and strengthening/maturing in the spiritual life. B. Facilitation of the ongoing spin off from the phenomenon, such as money laundering. C. Undermining of Church authority, credibility and discernment, for socio/political short term goals rather than long term spiritual goals.
Conclusion: The lone prophetic voice interpreting such events is the more reliable voice than that of the majority consensus. cf 1Kings 22
cool. thanks Jimmy
Thx Jimmy for the breadth of resources you've collected for people to make their own determination. The popularity with bishops is interesting. While not relevant as criteria, it is the norm for promoters of visionaries to promote what in marketing we call the rub-off effect. Moral by association. With that said, it would be interesting to compare those numbers to the number of bishops who visit Lourdes and Fatima annually, two sites properly managed by the Church.
It also raises question why Medjugorje bishop hasn't instituted the customary process for reviewing reputed miracles on-site. That would have at least provided some data for those who experience an immediate healing of some sort.
I think either both phases must be supernatural, or neither of them are. Why would Mary legitimately appear in phase one, but then disappear and allow falsehood/corruption/scandal to take over? They are either telling the truth about both phases, or lying about both phases.
After hearing about Tomislav, and Mary's supposed praise of him, I would strongly lean towards the latter (and I say that as someone who had no real opinion beforehand). But it seems simple enough to just wait and see. The seers made some extremely bold predictions, which should come true within my lifetime if this is legitimate. Until then, I'm staying away.
In A Still Small Voice, by Benedict Groeschel, he explains the difference between false revelations and fraudulent revelations. False revelations are when the visionary believes it's supernatural but are mistaken. That doesn't mean they are lying or everything they say is wrong. GroescheI explains this in the book.
I kind of allow for the possibility that Phase 1 was supernatural, but believe that it is not. I believe strongly that Phase 2 is fraudulent. It is possible that there is a mix of supernatural and fraudulent elements, but I doubt it.
@@susan6722 Ok, but whether it's lying or just mistaken, I think my question is still valid: Why would it be real in phase one, but then Mary disappears and allows confusion to take over in phase two? I would still find it likely that they were either mistaken in both phases, or both phases were real. But not some sort of in-between.
I’m just glad hear that the Zodiac killer has repented and is now clearly very involved in the study of Marian apparitions
Who?
@ the voice actor who does all of the experts also did the voice work for the Zodiac killer and did such a good job his voice remains locked in my mind as the Zodiac killer.
@@josephdantonio9187 ah lol
I'm still highly skeptical. I grew up knowing about this with people around me who are big time believers of Medjugorje and I've always found it convenient. It's always rumors about what happened but nothing clearly supernatural that would make me change my mind and be like.. "hmm something weird is def going on." Based on this, I'm still of the opinion that they have concoted an elaborate lie and now they don't even know how to get out of it. I don't think they're bad people but certainly have a lot to fess up.
I have visited Medjugorje myself in 2009 shortly before I joined the Church and studied it on and off over the years. I've come to the same conclusion. In spite of all the fruits, at the the heart of Medjugorje there is a big lie. A lie that has gotten so big that no one knows how to stop it and even the Vatican is forced to go along with it to a certain extent.
Thanks as always for an informative and thoughtful investigation, Jimmy. I listened to the three segments, but it's possible that I missed some details. I apologize if you made reference to this already and for my redundancy. There is another detail regarding the "secrets" and the lives of the visionaries that I found in a recent book written by one of the seers. It looks as though at least one of the visionaries doesn't seem to think that all of them will be alive when the 10 secrets are revealed. In her autobiography, "My Heart Will Triumph," Mirjana seems to consider the possibility that she may not be alive during the revealing of the 10 secrets. I'll leave the direct quotes from the book in this comment. Blessings to you and all your wonderful work! quotes: (pg. 141, "My Heart Will Triumph" by Mirjana Soldo) "Many people wondered why Our Lady gave me the parchment. Some assumed it was so I would not forget the secrets, but that's not accurate...I interpreted the parchment differently--its existence means that I do not necessarily have to be alive to reveal the secrets. Otherwise I would be too privileged. If they were not written, it would mean that I could not die today, and that I'm guaranteed to be alive when the time comes to reveal them. No human being lives forever, and no one is invincible...(ibid., pg. 142)..."People have asked me how I cope with the burden of the secrets, but I often think that the secrets burden others more than they do me. The people who are concerned about the secrets have not seen Our Lady and do not know about God's complete project -- why Our Lady comes here at all, or what she's preparing us for. But if your life is in her hands, and God is in your heart, what can harm you? If everyone knew me and could see How much I laugh and joke, no one would be afraid of the secrets...I cannot divulge much more about the secrets, but I can say this--Our Lady is planning to change the world. She did not come to announce our destruction; she came to save us, and with her Son, she will triumph over evil."
Strange I subscribed to your channel months ago with the bell notification. Today I needed to resubscribe.
This is very helpful actually. I heard personal and public testimony of the spiritual fruits that ultimately led me to plan a visit next year.
Though I’m not 100% convinced and not very informed so I’ll take the Vaticans official stance on this. though it this led me to wonder would I be disappointed regarding my expectation versus reality. But my main take away as you explained if I go with openness to the spiritual benefit the lord might find cause with my petitions. So I plan not necessarily a focus on the apparition or visionaries but perhaps finding the Holy Spirit in a place away from the familiar of my day to day life with prayer and a few spiritual books I’ll bring with me.
Also thanks MW for making me aware about the sci fi book pilgrims, I ordered it straight away - it may not be a spiritual book but man to does the premise and the arch of that book have me excited to read.😂
So, if phase 1 is considered supernatural but phase 2 is not then the seers have been running a scam for the past 40 yrs? Doesn't make sense. If they had a true encounter with the Blessed Mother how could they then go on to lie over and over for so many years?
People are people, and can be prone to mistakes. Simple as.
Who knew, it must be divine omniscience to know that Jimmy Akin would pull it all together over the Internet. Thanks Jimmy! Perhaps you answer the first secret by your ability to make sense of our lady Queen of the telegraph, or Internet.
A lingering question : was the answer to the life on other planets question part of the initial phase of phenomena or the second phase?
Phase 1!
Still take this with a grain of salt.. Even if it was a "real" answer from Mary, and even if you press the wording, it could just mean "that's not relevant to why I'm here so I won't talk about that." Or the "now" could also imply "you might learn the answer some time after you die or at the end of time because God will reveal all creation." Not necessarily talking about living humans on earth gaining this knowledge, or hinting the truth one way or the other.
Alright, I can believe a lot of things, but I can't believe for a second that the Almighty is going to give his most Precious and Beloved Son to a woman who is at any risk of dropping Him. Yeah, no. That seals the deal for me.
It was an obvious lie. And an unforced error, too.
She could have said "I don't know how our ecstasies work. Normally we don't see anything but I did see those fingers coming at my eye. Maybe Our Lady allowed me to see that so I could protect myself." That explanation doesn't sound nearly as ridiculous as the explanation she gave and would be impossible to prove either way.
Growing up- my mom and her circle of friends were super into Medjugorje. It was all about the feelings and miracles ect. The doom and gloom and end times talk. The fruits of that was a shallow faith from all of them and a terrible example to their children.
I don’t believe Medjugorje is real. I don’t think it’s our Blessed Mother. Just my opinion.
Sorry to hear about the poor examples you experienced, and how it negatively affected their faith later.
I do see a bit of a correlation between adamant Medjugorje supporters/defenders and a very “mUh fRuIts!” attitude that isn’t charitably applied to other Church matters. Very openly reverent and faithful, but little showing of love and mercy for others. I believe Jesus referred to such Pharisees as white-washed gravestones.
Hope your journey is going well despite the set back 🙏
I'm so glad the don't eat the daisies saying is now part of my life. Very true of life with kids 😂 thanks for enlightening me, Jimmy
That is quite a fun story to keep in one’s back pocket. And is soooo true with mischievous kids 😅
I feel like I had heard the saying before, but not sure if it was from a very old Jimmy Akin video or someone else entirely.
Thank you for your work! I am suspicious about the whole second part and the abundance of copies of those daily "messages" on social media do irritate me a lot. People always want something grom Heaven...
What is the evidence for Phase 1 being supernatural? At what time in the video, does Jimmy provide this?
Thank you for doing this. My parents always loved it, but something about the ongoing portion didn't sit well with me.
Great work, Jimmy. Loved the long format and enjoyed the deep dive. I thought you were WAY more charitable than I could ever be on this. I see the entire decades-long affair as sus from start to finish. It makes me a tiny bit ill to think of how careful the Vatican has had to be-because, in essence, some people are likely to see themselves as “on Mary’s side” and willing to leave the church over a negative ruling. And with so many living seers, what happens to the fruit when one of them finally confesses? Or the rogue priest who started his own religion confesses? It would be another big scandal about those credulous, superstitious Catholics - especially if accompanied by salacious details of this priest and the seers too. It’s such a hornets nest and I don’t think the Blessed Mother can be the start of all this, even in the early phase.
Listened to two full episodes. I would have like Jimmy’s views on the idea of spiritual warfare. If the “seers” did NOT defend themselves as we have see others do, then they were predictably going to run into trouble when the devil’s inevitable assault (always focused on those causing him the most trouble) came. Also, is this war in heaven (that is now played out in large part on earth) not becoming more sophisticated? The demons are not outside of time-so do they not learn? I fear that the faux revelations, while they bring conversions, cause much harm. What will happen to many of these converts when the “magical parchment” fails to materialize?
God stand between us and evil. St Michael, defend us. 🙏
BASED.
I really wanted the name of E Michael Jones to come up but I guess not. 🙂
Same!
1:41:14 validity of the consecration of the world
To the IHM? Jimmy should look deeper into that one. Some serious issues surround that one with card bertone.
The fact that father Peter "dosen't have a choice" from revealing the secrets isn't an arrgument against the alleged visionaries?
Thirty years from now nothing will have happened and the excuse will be “ well it doesn’t matter because of muh-good fruits n stuff, and father so and so got his vocation at Medjugorje” 🙄
Are good fruits important?
@ …sure. But context is important. Especially with regards to an apparition.
This is a somewhat depressing series to listen too. Like Jimmy, I've not looked into this until recently. But the more i hear about it the more i have big doubts about it.
I would really like for you to cover the apparitions in Zafanieh? Our lady of Zafanieh and Myrna Nazzour 👍
I mainly only saw the bottom line so far. Can anyone explain what phase 1 and 2 is?
It’s hard for me to reconcile a supernatural nature of Phase 1 with a non-supernatural Phase 2. If true, it would seem that the authentic apparitions formed the genesis for every problematic behavior the visionaries and the people around them exhibited in Phase 2. At best, you would have to hold that these people’s encounter with the supernatural was the occasion for subsequent acts of simony, the bearing of false witness and other forms of spiritual exploitation. To arrive at this moral state after only possibly committing genial sins of petty theft or mild disobedience common to most children implies that Heaven could act towards the corruption of Man, rather than his betterment. If that is the authentic outcome of a supernatural act of God, remind me again why I ought to trust in Him?
It seems far more tenable that either Phase 1 and Phase 2 are both supernatural or not together, not separately. I could even envision a scenario in which Phase 2 could be authentic while Phase 1 was false. But it seems unavoidable to me that Phase 2 is one of the most consequential fruits of Phase 1, so that if Phase 2 is false, it leads to the whole thing collapsing.
Why would God choose visionaries who He knew would later corrupt the witness of the encounter? I don't think that makes sense.
This assumes God has middle knowlege
God chooses all sorts of people. Look up Balaam, Son of Beor. Most prophets appear to have outstanding moral character, but it's not all of them.
He chose Judas.
Why would God create human beings some of whom He knew one day will end in hell?
@@dr.tafazziI don't believe this would be a case of middle knowledge. Middle knowledge is knowledge of the future of things that don't exist. For example, God knowing whether or not a person whom He has not created yet would go to Heaven or hell.
I think the fact that they became exceedingly wealthy based on the supposed apparations is troubling
Also if Mary said she eould only come 3 times..what does it mean that she comes every day to some of them?
Cardinal Fernandez - a holy and erudite man whose opinions I hold in highest regard!😂
Pray the Rosary, do a Holy Hour and/or become a daily communicant. Save the airfare that a Pilgrimage to Medjugorje cost you and use it as alms for the poor.
Dig it brother, well said.
Wow, that was a lot of information in two and a half hours. I have to agree with Jimmy and the Vatican. I didn't make up my mind until this episode. Just like Tolkien told CS Lewis, "examine the evidence."
I was waiting for this 3rd part..
BTW did anyone see the new pro-family and life ad of "Volvo ex90"? 💌👩🍼👨🍼
Frances Klug doesn’t seem to have been too clever.
(Klug means clever in German.)
I charitably say the conclusion is ridiculous. You know good and well you wouldn’t trust a car salesman of such dubious character, but people huckstering the Virgin Mary?
I think it started out as genuine and then they were influenced to turn it into a money making scheme.
Is the Zodiac narrating this?
😂
Jimmy why can't I make a super thanks donation like I do in others channels This option is not available for you channel
I believe SQPN has a Patrion if you want to support the podcast.
@nightyew2160 I am already part of their patreon, I just wonder why I can't donate on youtube
I knew it man. It really does sound like the Mormon stuff and I said that in the last video. I just wish the church hadn’t basically endorsed this sham.
Jesi siguran?! Ja jesam 100000000%. Ne trčite pred rudo!
@ I did not jump the gun and I’m sorry, I don’t speak Croatian.
Not when its paid for by charging an entry fee to attend apparitions
As far as making money by allowing pilgrims to stay in their homes: I see it as an act of charity. All these people start visiting. They need a place to stay. We can’t put them up for free but we can afford to house them if they pay something for their stay. I mean, this happens at literally every pilgrimage site around the world.
Medjugorje is too big to fail at this point. It’s obviously fake but now they have to split hairs about phase one being legit, phase two not being legit.. it’s all ridiculous.
Well it's good that ''trad-lite'' is not a decision maker in this matter
@ 😅
I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the analysis of the dancing sun phenomenon you discussed and how that connects to Fatima. If people staring at the sun see the sun dancing in what appears to be a non-supernatural way, then wouldn’t the more logical answer to the Fatima story be that many of the thousands of people who reported seeing the sun dance were just experiencing the same effect and attributed it to the apparition because they came in pre-loaded from the stories about the Mary appearing to the children?
If I’m remembering correctly, the day of the Dancing Sun at Fatima was rainy and people were still pretty wet by the time the miracle started. After the miracle, people and the nearby surroundings were almost to completely dry in a very short period of time, implying the Sun did in fact do something extraordinary. I don’t recall if the children said Mary would do something with the sun or not, as if it was the former then it sets up expectations whiles the latter would leave people open to an idea but not sure what it would be.
With the sun stuff at Med, I would definitely be leaning more towards people having minor retinal damage that creates the images. I’ve stared at the sun too long quite a number of times and the eyes does make it appear that it’s pulsing and changing colors. Plus, the earth’s atmosphere also plays a role in how sun particles and rays are perceived by the naked eye. At night some stars look like they are pulsating at the source, but it’s really the light particles getting shifted around as they pass through the atmosphere. Which I’m sure is happening with the sun rays as well at Med.
So combining prior expectations, minor retinal damage, natural atmospheric forces, and just testimonies with little to no outside evidence like noticeably hotter areas, I would find the sun phenomenon at Med to be non-supernatural.
@@jendoe9436 Those are good points. I need to review the details at Fatima for other pieces of confirming evidence (like wet things suddenly becoming dry, etc.) but it is true that everyone was gathered because the famous visionary children said that something was going to happen in that place and on that day, even if they didn't specifically attribute it to Mary.
Anyways, this is why I find eucharistic miracles more convincing. I've never seen anyone offer a remotely plausible explanation for how human heart tissue would end up in something that has the physical appearance of bread, multiple times in distinct places, with the same characteristics, always under the circumstances of that bread being consecrated as the eucharist.
I’m walking distance from a Catholic parish on a good-sized plot of land. There’s a statue some distance from the church building with a plaque on its plinth stating that it’s on the site of an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, experienced by one of the Medjugorje visionaries at a particular time when she was visiting.
I’m just a bit skeptical.
It’s a lovely parish with a lot of faithful people and I often go to daily Mass there when I do go to more than Sunday Mass. Which isn’t as often as it ought to be.
Came here from a Joe McMoneagle interview!
Maybe I RV'd this?? 😅
I find his story about RV super interesting.
Why the assumption that St Paul, in persecuting Christians, formally sinned?