When Carl Czerny is Played in REAL LIFE, this happens

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 113

  • @EazyP_Z
    @EazyP_Z หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    Amongst all of the needlessly negative comments, Wim, I just want to say that I really enjoy your talks. I don't know why, but I will always listen to a new video and I am always in the process of catching up with old ones.

    • @Graph1159
      @Graph1159 25 วันที่ผ่านมา

      The degree of negativity in the comments on Wim’s videos is kind of amusing; you’d think this were a political channel!

  • @pottedrodenttube
    @pottedrodenttube หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    Wim, you are doing really important work!

  • @DontRushtheClassics
    @DontRushtheClassics หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    I'm uploading some Czerny pieces performed with a strict whole beat tempo. Many of his galops sound like dance hall music or ragtime it was quite a shock! There is headroom for Accelerando!

  • @orvanbestunsaeedfaraj
    @orvanbestunsaeedfaraj หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hello Mr. Wim,
    I wanted to express my appreciation for you and your work over the years. I still remember discovering your performance of Chopin’s Twelve Études back in 2018, six years ago. That moment profoundly changed the path I would take-not only in music but also in life. It made me realize what it truly means to pursue music school and how it can sometimes lead one to become derivative or a blockhead (respectfully, this is not directed at you).
    Since then, I have been working to develop a technique that suits improvisation and have made it the pinnacle of my artistic intentions. Music, in my view, has become so repetitive and robotic that it has lost much of its essence and true artistry. I believe in breaking every rule and playing composers as if I were them-living and breathing through the music-rather than adhering rigidly to "tradition" or racing to achieve rapid speed that, etc. etc., only serves to reduce the depth of expression.
    I really miss those days of inspiration, and I wanted to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you for being such an influence on my journey.

  • @paulcapaccio9905
    @paulcapaccio9905 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    Pianists will never give up conquered territory. They play everything too fast !!!!!!!!! I went to Juilliard. So happy I found your channel. Now I play at the right tempi. We must re-educate the world of piano

  • @davcaslop
    @davcaslop หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    36:00 still here! I love long format vídeos. Tempo research is really my cup of tea!

  • @anthonywilson1754
    @anthonywilson1754 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Also thanks for the whole beat intro. I'm new here and very new to piano.

  • @maurozanchetta648
    @maurozanchetta648 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Watched the whole video!

  • @backtoschool1611
    @backtoschool1611 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Wim, im still here!
    I like these videos!

  • @herrdoktorjohan
    @herrdoktorjohan หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    35:55 You ask, I will state I'm still listening.
    This video is making me consider making a recording of the 5th etude of Czerny Op. 299, whole beat of course. It'd take some time to get up to that speed, and I couldn't go much faster than that, MAYBE 5 or 10%, and even that'd be a stretch.

    • @anthonywilson1754
      @anthonywilson1754 หลายเดือนก่อน

      You are ahead of me! This is all new to me.

    • @aBachwardsfellow
      @aBachwardsfellow หลายเดือนก่อน

      Just make the recording -- then tell everyone to set the playback speed to 1.75 -- ;-)

    • @herrdoktorjohan
      @herrdoktorjohan หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@aBachwardsfellow If I did that, I'd probably play it at H=63 (whole beat) to troll people so that the tempo is about correct at playback speed 1.75x 😄

    • @aBachwardsfellow
      @aBachwardsfellow หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@herrdoktorjohan EXACTLY! ;-)

  • @AlbertoSegovia.
    @AlbertoSegovia. หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    30:41 “probably Lars doesn’t have focal dystonia either!” - Great one!

  • @gdudas
    @gdudas หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    I hear a lot of remarks by contemporary pianists, which dismiss old metronome marks for reasons like : they are too fast, they are not that important, we don't know why they are that way etc... and then they just play at any tempo/speed they like. How many compositions from the 20th century with single beat marks are handled like this? I bet most of the modern compositions are played in the tempo as written, with some minor adjustments for interpretation. I don't think they are played 30% too slow or 25% faster than written. I bet they pretty much obey modern metronome markings, because that's the intended tempo. Wim, what do you think ?

  • @andre.vaz.pereira
    @andre.vaz.pereira หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    At 21:55 or 22:44 he is playing 53, not the 54 marked by Czerny (just watch closely). It's a very clever solution but even with that fingering he is struggling, we all would struggle a little bit at this tempo... Great video!

  • @codonauta
    @codonauta หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    I think the existence of piano methods called the velocity school is a bad sign. And here comes a point I agree with Wim: why this need to play everything so fast to the point of having countless technical speed methods in those years? Why were pianists infected by an obsession with speed? What was the need for this?

    • @VRnamek
      @VRnamek หลายเดือนก่อน

      according to Wagner in "On Conducting" Mendelssohn was among the first of these fast, commercially-minded people trying to cram as many concerts a day as possible. Tbh, this must have been a British thing, obsession with clocks and scheduled, as Beethoven already figured when dealing with younger British conductor and joking with him that symphonies were played even faster in Germany...

    • @kakoou3362
      @kakoou3362 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      because speed creates effects that will not represent Human Aural speed. For example for 10-12 chopin, it is obvious you dont sing with the left hand, but is composed for the sake of an effect based accompaniment, while the right hand closer to speech. If you slow them down, left hand becomes the the speed range of speaking, which make no sense with its register and unnatural leaps

    • @codonauta
      @codonauta 25 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@VRnamek Wagner talking something about a Jewish composer and you trust in him?

  • @derndernit8275
    @derndernit8275 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    When a composer writes a piece of music they have a feel and description for the tempo they desire and by which the music seems its ideal version to them. This does not mean they considerd this or that melody in every possible tempo, but ultimately personal taste is what counts. It is possible I can enjoy the same piece a bit slow on monday, a bit fast on tuesday, and a bit in the middle on wednesday.
    I have heard Glenn Gould recordings I thought were to fast for me to return and appreciate, to slow for me to return and appreciate, and just right for me to return and appreciate.
    The nuance of flow and tempo and rubato and feeling and conveyance and transmission of idea, energy, soul, depiction, is not always easy to perform, the revered composers have tried to encode their belief in their notation, but if there is possible leeway to possibly for a second here and a second there, or a minute, to improve on their perfectly strict vision, it would be listeners heart, soul, mind, body, taste, mood, ears that may agree or disagree.
    I skipped ahead in the video to 10:30 to hear the Czerny, and before knowing your view, enjoyed hearing that slow simple stready quaint charming play, that reminded me of something Haydn. Well as a commentor may have mentioned, if these are etudes, they can in theory be played at any speed to help a player work out technique, and be admired, as a painters studies can be considered works of art.

    • @AuthenticSound
      @AuthenticSound  หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Well, the composers we talk about here were very specific about it. Beethoven in the first place, he couldn't be more clear!

    • @derndernit8275
      @derndernit8275 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      "It is possible I can enjoy the same piece a bit slow on monday, a bit fast on tuesday, and a bit in the middle on wednesday. "
      On further thought I don't know how entirely accurate this is, though somewhat, often taste hones in on an ideal, and finds it hard to then later prefer much straying. But there are certain times I geuss when there is validity to enjoying a piece at one tempo, and also slightly slower, slightly slower, slightly faster, here and there. That's part of the intrigue and beauty of performance, is new performers arriving amidst the history of recordings, and still trying to express and show something transcendent, new and undeniably vital and valid. As recordings and recordings stack and stack, since the few yesterday's ago when good recording technology was made, this I geuss becomes more challenging for the new to compete with an increasing supply of great history, but somehow here and there they still pull off captivation and celebration.

    • @mobtek
      @mobtek 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

      When I was writing one harpsichord piece, it wasn't making musical sense because of the speed, so I slowed it down and down and ended up using the same notation that Forqueray used in La Leon and La Sylva viol pieces. In modern single beat it ended up being 30 in the main part and 62 in the fast change & had so much more feeling and impact than the original 75 I started with. So I've been very clear about tempo not only with the metronome mark but also in the style of notation used before metronomes marks were used, to denote a much slower tempo. Bring it back I say! ;) PS this was about a year before I discovered Meneer Winters videos IIRC.

  • @picksalot1
    @picksalot1 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    Fast speeds of the Past would be considered moderate or slow by modern standards. This applies to music, travel, etc. as Wim pointed out. Czerny likely wrote The School of Velocity to address the need to be able to play at the rapid speeds preferred by the audiences of the time.
    Virtuosity, to a significant amount, is expressed as velocity. If the Composer intended to convey the emotions generated by rapid velocities, the accurate Whole Beat Metronome tempos of the Past are not going to work with modern audiences, and the Single Beat tempos are often physically impossible. Consequently, we hear many modern performers settling for something manageable between those two tempos. And those who who try to adhear to Single Beat Metronome indications as literally true, often fail to reach those speeds, and may injuring themselves in the process.

    • @he1ar1
      @he1ar1 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Then the audience have to be told that their "taste" is different to the past. Their expectation of a "performance" is different. Something similar can be said of today's performers. Their level technique is far beyond the expectations of Beethoven.
      I think the aim of the whole beat project should not be to tell performers or audience that their taste is wrong. Instead to say something about their taste. Give them something to compare. A contrasting perspective. Then they go back to revisit the Litista's of the world with more admiration.
      Or if they like the whole beat style then they go on a journey in that direction.

    • @aaronruss
      @aaronruss หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      No they wouldn't. This guy is a conspiracy theorist.

    • @gcapeletti
      @gcapeletti หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@aaronruss you don't even make sense yourself. Try again.

    • @Renshen1957
      @Renshen1957 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@aaronruss Which guy is "This guy" that you refer to? Just curious, to access which person you obliquely refer to as a conspiracy theorist?

    • @mikesmovingimages
      @mikesmovingimages หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@he1ar1 And Wim never says that modern performance is wrong in any way. He was motivated by trying to understand why those metronome marks of old are so weird, to the point that they are widely, almost universally ignored. People ascribe to him some pedanticism or arrogance that is simply not there.

  • @aBachwardsfellow
    @aBachwardsfellow หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I suppose that (at 25:00 - 25:30) an improper technic (sitting too low, lifting the fingers -- over-using the extensors) will typically result in tension. I wonder how it would go if Yuja Wang were to play it ...

    • @sebastian-benedictflore
      @sebastian-benedictflore หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Yuja Wang, a notorious beginner...

    • @aBachwardsfellow
      @aBachwardsfellow หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@DismasZelenka Agreed! 🙂

    • @AlbertoSegovia.
      @AlbertoSegovia. หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      30:41 “probably Lars doesn’t have focal dystonia either!” - Great one!

    • @AlbertoSegovia.
      @AlbertoSegovia. หลายเดือนก่อน

      @ Wow, one year to recover from tendinitis or whatever it’s called. Steinway et al. look like self destructive business joints, don’t they?

    • @AlbertoSegovia.
      @AlbertoSegovia. หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@DismasZelenka imagine sponsoring the maker of mediocre equipment that cannot permit the users to reach the unreachable single beat speeds, and which costs more than a family house, and each unit made taking a whole year in manufacturing, just to suffer injuries from which you lose one year of your career, because of practicing whole days just to insure a 75% or 90% of the goal. There is an efficient problem there. If only Czerny had known, maybe he would better recommend stay away from it altogether!

  • @RustyEgoMonkey
    @RustyEgoMonkey หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    You are doing great work, I feel it's catching on, slowly, but it's catching on. More and more videos online play with "Historical Tempo" which is actually the WBMP and should simply be the Tempo, but of course I understand it needs to be distinguished today. Actually a new dimension opened up at the WBMP tempo and many things overlooked when played too fast, you HAVE to play now, in tempo(!) and it's actually really hard. I also told my piano teacher about your channel (kind of forced her to watch a few ones together). She's still skeptic, but she says you make very good points, but it's hard to change ways ig. Het sijpelt er stilletjes aan wel door

  • @GokeAcolA
    @GokeAcolA 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Yes. Transcendental humans do exist. Look at track and field. Husain Bolt is an example. It’s an unachievable physical ability for even professional athletes. But throughout history come certain people that break the physical barriers and set certain aspiration markers for the evolution of that art form. This is an important part of human evolution. The .01%.

  • @SinaFarhat
    @SinaFarhat หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    36:00 I am still here

  • @jbw53191
    @jbw53191 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Glenn Gould consistently played pieces in ways other than the composer intended, I suspect out of sheer narcissism and arrogance

  • @Hjominbonrun
    @Hjominbonrun หลายเดือนก่อน

    There is a video of Sviatoslav Richter playing the op10no4 etude of chopin.
    At the end, it looks like his handkerchief is being thrown at a speed which looks like the old black and white movies.
    When you slow the video down by 25%, it sounds good, as if that was the intent.

  • @edwardwright7329
    @edwardwright7329 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Regarding your video at 3:00 I just ran through a Beethoven bagatelle and I think I am “here” but you can’t see my hand position because it’s way below the desk top😂

  • @JohnStarkYT
    @JohnStarkYT หลายเดือนก่อน

    The 2030s will bring on the deserved revival of Czerny.

  • @sebastian-benedictflore
    @sebastian-benedictflore หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    35:55 still here!

  • @jdbrown371
    @jdbrown371 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I played Czerny's etude op. 299 at MM 216 and you know what happened? I saw... Charlie!

  • @codonauta
    @codonauta หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    There is a video in which Baremboim comments that he had access to Beethoven's autographed score of the 9th Symphony and found it written "half note from 120 to 180". The numbers can no to be exactly these, I don't remember, this is not the more important, - the point is that
    Beethoven himself gave a freedom of tempo between X and Y. That's why I find these endless discussions about tempi not very useful. Czerny wrote the speed that he considered maximum for his pieces or editions, this does not mean that he required that precise tempo to be played. Obviously it is in bad taste to play Czerny with scales that look more like glissandos, so we reduce the tempo by 30% or even more until it is reasonable and that's it.

    • @AuthenticSound
      @AuthenticSound  หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      he actually wrote 108 and 120 with a illegible connection. It could be a note that he wanted to choose between these two (very related) tempos later- ultimately it is important what he send out to Schott and Moscheles. The fact that musicians like Barenboim point to these kind of sources to try to diminish the value of the metronome, or try to make the case for personal freedom (as an explanation why to do not stick to the prescriptions by Beethoven) is because those MMs are out of reach and they seem not to have a logical explanation for it. While it is very simple, but indeed, that solution disconnects the original intention from their preferred way of playing the work.

    • @codonauta
      @codonauta หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@AuthenticSound ok. Thank you for the feedback.

  • @aaronruss
    @aaronruss หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    What evidence do you have for the double beat theory and how it can be applied to Czerny

    • @Graph1159
      @Graph1159 หลายเดือนก่อน

      In my opinion, strong evidence that Czerny used the metronome in double beat comes from his metronomizations of the Bach Inventions. Wim has done a series of videos on this. They can be found with a TH-cam search: “AuthenticSound Czerny Bach Inventions.”

  • @classicgameplay10
    @classicgameplay10 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    First again

  • @DenianArcoleo
    @DenianArcoleo หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I would like to listen more to this channel but find myself unable to due to the relentless 'jackhammer' sound of the speaking voice. It gives me a headache.

    • @Renshen1957
      @Renshen1957 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Have you tried turning down the volume? There’s a number of videos that have a different presentation, and many that are primarily music.

  • @sildurmank
    @sildurmank หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Second this time.

  • @VRnamek
    @VRnamek หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    single-beaters fast beating the messenger when confronted with hard truths...
    yeah, ignore the composer intents, play as will, they're suddenly romantic freedom fighters...

  • @largoallegrorisoluto
    @largoallegrorisoluto หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    What's the serious concern with these tempi and what is your obsession with them? Just don't play it that fast if you don't want to. Students/grand students of composers such as Koczalski, Cortot, Hofmann, have already disproved the double tempo theory. Why not just tell people to play how they want instead?

    • @petertyrrell3391
      @petertyrrell3391 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      What evidence do you have for saying Koczalski, Cortot and Hofmann disproved Double Beat Theory, or, more accurately, Double Beat Practice?

    • @largoallegrorisoluto
      @largoallegrorisoluto หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@petertyrrell3391 That they have actual recorded playing? You can find them on TH-cam

    • @micoveliki8729
      @micoveliki8729 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      ​@@petertyrrell3391are you serious? Maybe JUST MAYBE their fricking RECORDINGS are the proof??

    • @petertyrrell3391
      @petertyrrell3391 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@micoveliki8729 How come? They don't seem to take Chopin's indications seriously or show any knowledge of or interest in Chopin's style of playing. I refer you to Wim's recent video.

    • @micoveliki8729
      @micoveliki8729 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      @@petertyrrell3391 I mean if you give authority to some random guy on youtube then to people who acctually knowed the composer and studied with him I think you probably have a lot of issues when it comes to critical thinking...

  • @paulcapaccio9905
    @paulcapaccio9905 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I don’t care what tempi the great pianists played at. They are all wrong !!!!!!!

  • @JP-bb9hu
    @JP-bb9hu หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    i disagree with your premise. Glenn Gould for example sometimes deliberately moved away from an "original intention" of the composer, and luckily for us.

    • @DontRushtheClassics
      @DontRushtheClassics หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      No one is saying you (or Glenn Gould) can't have your own interpretation. We're simply suggesting that a strong foundation in the composer's intentions and the historical context can enhance your performance. Right now, many performers lack that foundation.

    • @JP-bb9hu
      @JP-bb9hu หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@DontRushtheClassics okay, but that already sounds a lot less dogmatic than how Wim postulated it at the beginning of this video.

    • @DontRushtheClassics
      @DontRushtheClassics หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@JP-bb9hu We encourage you to develop your own unique voice. If you simply imitate someone like Glenn Gould, your options become limited: play slower or faster? Most pianists would likely choose faster, making it harder to stand out. Why not take a less-traveled path and forge your own distinct style?

    • @JP-bb9hu
      @JP-bb9hu หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@DontRushtheClassics uh, i never said anything about wanting to emulate Glenn Gould. I'm not even a musician lol. He was just an example. Your answers sound like postcardy non-statements to me, sorry.

  • @ianm8137
    @ianm8137 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Talks too much.......left it.

    • @sebastian-benedictflore
      @sebastian-benedictflore หลายเดือนก่อน

      What do you think the video should be instead?

    • @ianm8137
      @ianm8137 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      @@sebastian-benedictflore Get to the point, illustrate your point, several examples and conclude..not 45 minutes of blah,blah,blah.

    • @Makeromanticismmainstreamagain
      @Makeromanticismmainstreamagain หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      He does that cause this theory just isn't true.

    • @sebastian-benedictflore
      @sebastian-benedictflore หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ianm8137 well, the points are usually fairly clear. There's a wealth of videos on this channel which are more concise and, at this point, the videos more podcast-y, just a chill space for a community. I personally put them on whilst I'm cooking, easy to listen to and follow whilst focusing on other things.
      You might find what you're looking for in older videos.

    • @JérémyPresle
      @JérémyPresle 25 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​​You will be happy to know that there are a lot of new things covered in the book!.​@@DismasZelenka

  • @earlgrey9329
    @earlgrey9329 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    You speak too fast !!!
    I don't like that !
    Just unsubscribed !!!
    Goodbye ! 😊

    • @johnb6723
      @johnb6723 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      *hisses at you.

  • @amirmotahari6186
    @amirmotahari6186 หลายเดือนก่อน

    what a waist of time ...!