Finally someone else admitting it!! Bravo Roberto! Fortepianos are not fast! End of the story. Let's play in single beat fantasy now 😈shall we? I have listened to all the symphonies from the box and all the podcasts about them, looking forward to starting the notation course 🕺
@@DismasZelenka I told you before, until you upload a video for each video that Wim made with evidence for double beat and a video in single beat for each piece performed on this channel in double beat, there is no point me discussing with you. No bla bla bla. Just do it, then we talk. Yes, your heroes got it wrong.. Father Christmas doesn't exist! I know it is tough but get over it mate.
@@DismasZelenka cult mentality 🤣🤣I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You continue to speak without showing the evidence, meaning making the videos I asked for. Bla bla bla. One isolated fact after another. He COULD if he wanted.. he is NOT A SPECIALIST (in reference to your reply to Alberto Segovia). Basically.. still not doing it then. Why don't you do it? Go to the piano, press the button of your phone, upload a video and share it with us. Tell me one thing, why don't you spend your time praising the masters that you worship? Instead of trying to go against something that in any case, according to you, cannot stand up by itself. Go, go and delight your heroes with poetical words! What are you trying to defend if single beat is such a powerful 'practice'? Why don't you spend your time listening or playing music in the way you like. Leave us mentally ill cult people to continue living in illusion. Go an mingle with humans who are surely musically more evolved than this bunch of psychopaths that enjoy a slow tune. Go, go.. to plant potatoes if anything.
@@DismasZelenka what tantrum? for me it is just like talking about the weather, I simply like a colourful speech now and then spiced up with a bit of sarcasm. Mediterranean blood. If you embraced the double beat REALITY you could find that maybe you are not as bad as you think, that maybe, in some cases, you have more musical qualities than those who call themselves professionals or virtuosi, or at least musical qualities that can serve that 'old' music. That maybe, it is worth practicing and enjoying that old music coming out of your own fingers, to share it with people, knowing that your interpretation is individual but within the spectrum intended by those composers. Unchain yourself mio caro Zelenka! To each one what they choose.
I listened to the Beethoven string quartet op 59 and the final movt was played so fast I was laughing. No wonder people don’t understand Classical music anymore.
Apart from some regional or local dialects flavours and variants, “assai” in nowadays standard Italian language is a rather obsolete (say “belonging to the nineteenth - early twentieth century”) adverb/adjective with exactly the same meaning as “molto”
26:43 still here! It's amazing how most people always ignore Occam's razor - the answer that requires the least amount of assumptions is most likely the correct one.
What about the many witness reports we have about the duration of Beethovens music we have? They really don't differ from how we perform them today... Also Allegro Assai really is faster than Allegro, you should know that, it's in almost ALL theory books of that time. I think you take the metronome marks way too literal and you ended up in a tunnel-vision.
@@AuthenticSound Here you prove yourself that your theory is false. The concert would have lasted 5 hours, if you had counted the intermission as only a half hour... There's really a lot of proof if official historical documents about the duration of pieces, not only about Beethoven, but also Mozart, Gluck,... You really can't deny that. We know from at least 3 different sources that his 6th symphony would have lasted about 45', not so different from the about 42' is mostly takes today. If your opinion is that Beethovens music is played double a fast as intended, it means the same for Mozart's music (and all others before him) He didn't write metronome marks of course, but if you look at the tempo system (time signature, tempo word, smalles note value), you see almost exactly the same way of thinking with Beethoven. Really, metronome marks were not at all intended to be taken as strict (and they would certainly not play as sterile as you do). I think you suffer from cognitive dissonance... Best wishes!
@@PierretteVerlaine "If your opinion is that Beethovens music is played double a fast as intended" Wim has NEVER claimed that. That assertion would assume that most performances are indeed played at the MM markings, and they are not. Most are some 70 - 80% of those markings. Wim has gone over that ad infinitum. To play them at WB would not require half the usual speed in most cases. Wim has also demonstrated the wide range of timings (i.e. speeds) in the 100-year discography of Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, etc. Some come close to WB at times, a few even SB, but most are far less than SB. It is also demonstrable that the faster performances go, the wider the range of tempo changes along the way. Most telling of all, no one plays faster than the MM markings. Accelerando must not have been a thing in the 18th and early 19th centuries.
@@mikesmovingimages Hi guys: problem solved: th-cam.com/video/qn9bMKby2yw/w-d-xo.html The tempo word always goes together with both the smallest note value and the time signature. Allegro Assai in 6/8 has a slower pulse compared to 2/4 or 4/4. There's 16th notes, so that also slows the pulse a bit. But listen to Giltburg, apparently he can do it, and even very beautiful! Just compare it with Allegro Assai movements in Mozart's or Haydn's music... Are you going to play those also as slow? You can't deny that we have multiple witness-stories about the length of the Da Ponte-opera's (surprise-surprise: approx. the SAME length as today's performances...) Your channel is new to me and really gigantic. I don't have the time to view everything, but I'm quite curious to watch the video where you actually give prove based on historical documents... Thanks for posting a link and forgive me the rudeness to ask. In Hollywood they would say: "It's on bitch!" 😉😆
Wim, I think you're doing a great service by making otherwise unplayable tempi for the amateur possible with your double beat method. By providing legitimization and a welcoming spirit, you help amateurs to actually play and enjoy great classics of the piano without the need to die at the altar of hard technical work which professional level pianists must do in order to attain modern day performance standards. Again, keep up the great work.
Still hear (here), since the beginning of my being here not from the first video but since I discovered the channel and thought Willard Palmer mentioned MM marks incongruity back in 1972.
The music dictionary says assai = very, Allegro Assai=Very Allegro (Fast)…You can see terms change overtime 1602 By and By = immediately, 2002 eventually or and underdetermined future event/time.
26:43, of course I'm still here. From Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition: "allegro giusto, nel modo russico; senza allegrezza, ma poco sostenuto" translates as "cheerful just right, in the Russian way; without cheerfulness, but little sustained." What tempo would that be? Cheerful, but not too cheerful, maybe a dour Russian cheerfulness? Little sustained, does that mean kind of plodding, but maybe a little faster? Of course Beethoven welcomed the metronome.
26:44 Ofc still here! I love to see that more and more people acknowledge that this fast tempi are just not musical and, obviously, out of reach for humans. Thank you for your work and reaserch and the Beethoven Experience was the best thing I have ever spent my money on!!
I am a pianist. Maybe one day you will convince me but that has not happened yet. Even if you are correct, (and I say "if") the concept of artistic freedom will remain. I am also a composer and I know what happens when I - with enthusiasm - put a metronome mark on a piece I have written. Eventually I often change my mind about it. And perhaps more importantly, when I sit down to play the piece, I just play the damn piece. I don't check the metronome to see if I'm being faithful to it. Sometimes I will write: "quarter note = 60 *approx.*" Anyway, I appreciate what you are doing, and if you are correct I hope that people will be convinced about it.
As a composer, I used to think doubling the tempo made my music sound more "professional." Returning to the original, slower tempo always felt jarring. But I've realized that I need to create music that sounds amazing at any speed, not just at an artificially fast tempo.
As a concert pianist (i play more than 50 public apearances every year) my tempo depends of the place i will play. As a composer dont trust my tempos 😅 Many works i wrote, i put metronome numbers that i also changed my mind after.
"Artistic freedom". This is a frequent point of confusion around Wim's discussions. None of this is about "artistic freedom". No one's artistic freedom is threatened here, and no performance prescriptions are offered. Wim's investigation is trying to solve the riddle around the MM markings, which for generations have been mostly disregarded in practice, and are universally considered to be extremely fast. So much so, that few if any ever meet let alone exceed them. Why are the tempo markings of the great masters so easily disregarded? Wim certainly believes there is much beauty and new/lost revelations to be gained by applying WB. But that is not stopping anyone from playing a given work however they want. The budding Beethovens and Schuberts who are responding are also confused. This is not an issue limited to one composer. The MM markings are from a periods spanning decades and great variety of composers, performers and editors. And the bias is also almost completely in one direction: very fast. Your personal experiences as indecisive composers do not shed light on what Beethoven et al were up to 200 years ago.
Your videos are instructive entertainment in themselves. I got you email about joining the notation course and will follow it with interest. That sonata is one of my favourites and I like to play somewhere between the single and whole beat speed.
You are so right. Beethoven en never heard his works played so fast. If we stand back and really listen our tempos today’s are actually comical !!!!!! Like silent movie piano. Silly and dumb
Czerny does but it not clear where. His Simrock edition adds some pedal but not by much do we might assume that the difference between score and practice were very small. As a fact, for the Hammerkl. he wrote that every detail for the execution is in the score, thus including pedal markings. take a look at those and notice how different compared to mainstream and hip today!
@@AuthenticSound well, Czerny did write that Beethoven 'used a lot of pedal, much more than is indicated in his works.' That does not seem to point to a 'very small' difference as you think. He also asks you to vary the dynamics in repeats of Scherzi, where is this in the score? And if every detail of op. 106 is in the score (quite a Stravinskian claim actually), why don't you keep the pedal for the whole fugue? There is no release after the intro.
@@petertyrrell3391 Does Vivaldi work in Max Richters arrangements? Does Bach work in the version of Wendy Carlos? Does Bach work on the piano? If so, in Feinbergs version, in Goulds, in Schiffs??? If you prefer Beethoven without extra pedal, don't let me stop you. But the original question was not about taste, but about 'a source'.
It seems to me that some pianists take excessive liberties with the music, reinterpreting it to fit their own preferences, much like Star Wars fans who insist they know George Lucas's true intentions better than he does. ( Why did Beethoven include Jar Jar!?...I MUST fix that! ) IMHO, Pianists are nothing more than fan fiction authors.
Hi Wim, I really love your videos and interpretations! You mentioned that period instruments aren't as fast as modern grand pianos, but I've heard quite a few pieces played faster on period instruments-like, for example, in this th-cam.com/video/xEuyQBYZL7s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QiAjzZUa0F5xWJdt I'm curious how they manage to achieve that speed. It would be great if you could make a video discussing this particular recording series of Beethoven sonatas on period instruments! Thanks so much for your amazing work!
There are so many egregious examples of this type of interpretation. Early Wagner seems to be a casualty. If anyone heard recordings of the overture to Das Liebesverbot you'll know what I mean. You just lose all the texture from the music and I can't believe that is how Wagner had intended it.
The problem with all this Wim is that even if you are correct (whatever that looks like) - which I don't think you are entirely. Nobody will care, people prefer the tempos that are assumed, there is no way you are going to get very influential institutions to renege on this, to do that would be to admit that they've been teaching things incorrectly for a very very long time. It's just not going to happen.
Wim is not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater. He knows well what the established norms are. But his project is to show a more authentic tempo, closer to the composers' original intention in their time, and deal with problems that are in MMs. You can have both, and enjoy whatever you prefer. There is enough space for all of it to exist.
@@pottedrodenttube I hear what you are saying but it feels.. and has always felt, that Wim is much more concerned with being right than representing classical music in a non self serving fashion. The problem with what you are saying is that people actually aren't interested in pieces up to 50% slower than what they are used to hearing. As I previously said, people prefer the faster tempos, as do I.
Modern virtuosos are very ignorant with huge egos.They know nothing of the composers intentions! Fast fast faster. They laugh at metronome markings because they don’t understand them . The whole beat method makes sense. 2 rocks not one with maybe 10- 20 percent more but that’s enough. Everything becomes listenable and comprehensive only then. I know. I played everything too fast but after watching your channel I’m now in your camp. I studied at Juilliard . I now think that that Juilliard ruined so many pianists and violinists because none of the teachers understood tempo
This is all just a bunch of sour grapes. You could easily learn to play at tempo with relaxation and economy of motion. But no! You have to insist the metronome markings are all wrong?!?!? smh
For Wim or anyone to learn to play the Beethoven Opus 2 No 3 sonata at speed, will take a great deal of practice and a very good... i.e. professional level .... technique. Not everyone is able to attain this or desires to do the kind of work necessary. So the jury is out on whether Wim has the ability to play this sonata up to speed.
Relaxation and economy of motion won’t “cut it” for 15 notes repeated per second or Czerny’s other Opus 299 which requires 22 of notes non-repeated notes per second. No one is stopping you from recording a video of relaxation-economy of motion in single beat metronome and contacting Wim Winters to upload on his channel to refute Whole Beat Theory. FYI, 22 notes per second is beyond the human nervous system’s to distinguish individual tones. No one has passed 13.73 notes of a single note using both hands. Czerny requires one hand on various notes repeated notes and the left hand playing an accompaniment. You bring nothing to the table except an unsupported opinion (nothing new on the channel). So put up or…eat your sour grapes…
Mozart never wrote any metronome markings. Not only was the metronome a later invention, but the composer never even used other timepieces, such as the chronometer or the clock, the use of which played a much too minor role.
@@AuthenticSound Playing Mozart slower can really bring out the nuances in phrasing and emotion, allowing listeners to fully absorb the beauty of each note and harmonic progression. In the absence of metronome markings, it’s up to the performer to decide what best serves the music, and sometimes a slower tempo can reveal layers of expression that might otherwise be missed.
yes, of course, it is always up to the performers - what we do here is figure out how these metronome marks were used. We do have however MMs for Mozart and Haydn, from Moscheles, Czerny and others. Of course, that is later, but still very close to that time.
![[M/G] - Purple Ballad | Gothic Ambient Music | Cold Wave](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YyvCmpn6mv4/mqdefault.jpg)
Finally someone else admitting it!! Bravo Roberto! Fortepianos are not fast! End of the story. Let's play in single beat fantasy now 😈shall we? I have listened to all the symphonies from the box and all the podcasts about them, looking forward to starting the notation course 🕺
@@DismasZelenka I told you before, until you upload a video for each video that Wim made with evidence for double beat and a video in single beat for each piece performed on this channel in double beat, there is no point me discussing with you. No bla bla bla. Just do it, then we talk. Yes, your heroes got it wrong.. Father Christmas doesn't exist! I know it is tough but get over it mate.
@@DismasZelenkaSo Czerny could play it at 120 dotted quarters per minute. Why doesnt ‘Berto do it too?
@DismasZelenka So, you asked and I answer: Yes.
@@DismasZelenka cult mentality 🤣🤣I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You continue to speak without showing the evidence, meaning making the videos I asked for. Bla bla bla. One isolated fact after another. He COULD if he wanted.. he is NOT A SPECIALIST (in reference to your reply to Alberto Segovia). Basically.. still not doing it then. Why don't you do it? Go to the piano, press the button of your phone, upload a video and share it with us.
Tell me one thing, why don't you spend your time praising the masters that you worship? Instead of trying to go against something that in any case, according to you, cannot stand up by itself. Go, go and delight your heroes with poetical words! What are you trying to defend if single beat is such a powerful 'practice'? Why don't you spend your time listening or playing music in the way you like. Leave us mentally ill cult people to continue living in illusion. Go an mingle with humans who are surely musically more evolved than this bunch of psychopaths that enjoy a slow tune. Go, go.. to plant potatoes if anything.
@@DismasZelenka what tantrum? for me it is just like talking about the weather, I simply like a colourful speech now and then spiced up with a bit of sarcasm. Mediterranean blood. If you embraced the double beat REALITY you could find that maybe you are not as bad as you think, that maybe, in some cases, you have more musical qualities than those who call themselves professionals or virtuosi, or at least musical qualities that can serve that 'old' music. That maybe, it is worth practicing and enjoying that old music coming out of your own fingers, to share it with people, knowing that your interpretation is individual but within the spectrum intended by those composers. Unchain yourself mio caro Zelenka! To each one what they choose.
21:07 “Surprise! Surprise! When people are not talking to me, then suddenly the fortepiano is a slow instrument.”
😂 so true.
How lucky we are to know Hendrix's Machine Gun in its proper performance, without having to guess how it was supposed to be performed
I listened to the Beethoven string quartet op 59 and the final movt was played so fast I was laughing. No wonder people don’t understand Classical music anymore.
Apart from some regional or local dialects flavours and variants, “assai” in nowadays standard Italian language is a rather obsolete (say “belonging to the nineteenth - early twentieth century”) adverb/adjective with exactly the same meaning as “molto”
4:19 this looks amazing! Thank you!
26:43 still here! It's amazing how most people always ignore Occam's razor - the answer that requires the least amount of assumptions is most likely the correct one.
Also, Czerny wrote for students, so he must have taken into account that many students don't have access to top notch instruments.
What about the many witness reports we have about the duration of Beethovens music we have? They really don't differ from how we perform them today... Also Allegro Assai really is faster than Allegro, you should know that, it's in almost ALL theory books of that time. I think you take the metronome marks way too literal and you ended up in a tunnel-vision.
th-cam.com/video/p7Tvc-b4Sq0/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/gsntpykv1jQ/w-d-xo.html
@@AuthenticSound Here you prove yourself that your theory is false. The concert would have lasted 5 hours, if you had counted the intermission as only a half hour... There's really a lot of proof if official historical documents about the duration of pieces, not only about Beethoven, but also Mozart, Gluck,... You really can't deny that. We know from at least 3 different sources that his 6th symphony would have lasted about 45', not so different from the about 42' is mostly takes today. If your opinion is that Beethovens music is played double a fast as intended, it means the same for Mozart's music (and all others before him) He didn't write metronome marks of course, but if you look at the tempo system (time signature, tempo word, smalles note value), you see almost exactly the same way of thinking with Beethoven. Really, metronome marks were not at all intended to be taken as strict (and they would certainly not play as sterile as you do). I think you suffer from cognitive dissonance... Best wishes!
@@PierretteVerlaine "If your opinion is that Beethovens music is played double a fast as intended"
Wim has NEVER claimed that. That assertion would assume that most performances are indeed played at the MM markings, and they are not. Most are some 70 - 80% of those markings. Wim has gone over that ad infinitum. To play them at WB would not require half the usual speed in most cases. Wim has also demonstrated the wide range of timings (i.e. speeds) in the 100-year discography of Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, etc. Some come close to WB at times, a few even SB, but most are far less than SB. It is also demonstrable that the faster performances go, the wider the range of tempo changes along the way.
Most telling of all, no one plays faster than the MM markings. Accelerando must not have been a thing in the 18th and early 19th centuries.
@@mikesmovingimages Hi guys: problem solved: th-cam.com/video/qn9bMKby2yw/w-d-xo.html The tempo word always goes together with both the smallest note value and the time signature. Allegro Assai in 6/8 has a slower pulse compared to 2/4 or 4/4. There's 16th notes, so that also slows the pulse a bit. But listen to Giltburg, apparently he can do it, and even very beautiful! Just compare it with Allegro Assai movements in Mozart's or Haydn's music... Are you going to play those also as slow? You can't deny that we have multiple witness-stories about the length of the Da Ponte-opera's (surprise-surprise: approx. the SAME length as today's performances...) Your channel is new to me and really gigantic. I don't have the time to view everything, but I'm quite curious to watch the video where you actually give prove based on historical documents... Thanks for posting a link and forgive me the rudeness to ask. In Hollywood they would say: "It's on bitch!" 😉😆
Wim, I think you're doing a great service by making otherwise unplayable tempi for the amateur possible with your double beat method. By providing legitimization and a welcoming spirit, you help amateurs to actually play and enjoy great classics of the piano without the need to die at the altar of hard technical work which professional level pianists must do in order to attain modern day performance standards.
Again, keep up the great work.
Still here, after 7 years maybe?
Still hear (here), since the beginning of my being here not from the first video but since I discovered the channel and thought Willard Palmer mentioned MM marks incongruity back in 1972.
The music dictionary says assai = very, Allegro Assai=Very Allegro (Fast)…You can see terms change overtime 1602 By and By = immediately, 2002 eventually or and underdetermined future event/time.
The easiest way to dispel of a faster fortepiano is to demonstrate the fortepiano…
The way to demonstrate the Erard double escapement speed is to play an Erard…incidentally Mendelssohn complained about the Heavy action in 1837.
26:43, of course I'm still here. From Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition: "allegro giusto, nel modo russico; senza allegrezza, ma poco sostenuto" translates as "cheerful just right, in the Russian way; without cheerfulness, but little sustained." What tempo would that be? Cheerful, but not too cheerful, maybe a dour Russian cheerfulness? Little sustained, does that mean kind of plodding, but maybe a little faster? Of course Beethoven welcomed the metronome.
26:44 Ofc still here! I love to see that more and more people acknowledge that this fast tempi are just not musical and, obviously, out of reach for humans. Thank you for your work and reaserch and the Beethoven Experience was the best thing I have ever spent my money on!!
I am a pianist. Maybe one day you will convince me but that has not happened yet. Even if you are correct, (and I say "if") the concept of artistic freedom will remain. I am also a composer and I know what happens when I - with enthusiasm - put a metronome mark on a piece I have written. Eventually I often change my mind about it. And perhaps more importantly, when I sit down to play the piece, I just play the damn piece. I don't check the metronome to see if I'm being faithful to it. Sometimes I will write: "quarter note = 60 *approx.*" Anyway, I appreciate what you are doing, and if you are correct I hope that people will be convinced about it.
As a composer, I used to think doubling the tempo made my music sound more "professional." Returning to the original, slower tempo always felt jarring. But I've realized that I need to create music that sounds amazing at any speed, not just at an artificially fast tempo.
As a concert pianist (i play more than 50 public apearances every year) my tempo depends of the place i will play. As a composer dont trust my tempos 😅 Many works i wrote, i put metronome numbers that i also changed my mind after.
"Artistic freedom". This is a frequent point of confusion around Wim's discussions. None of this is about "artistic freedom". No one's artistic freedom is threatened here, and no performance prescriptions are offered. Wim's investigation is trying to solve the riddle around the MM markings, which for generations have been mostly disregarded in practice, and are universally considered to be extremely fast. So much so, that few if any ever meet let alone exceed them. Why are the tempo markings of the great masters so easily disregarded? Wim certainly believes there is much beauty and new/lost revelations to be gained by applying WB. But that is not stopping anyone from playing a given work however they want.
The budding Beethovens and Schuberts who are responding are also confused. This is not an issue limited to one composer. The MM markings are from a periods spanning decades and great variety of composers, performers and editors. And the bias is also almost completely in one direction: very fast. Your personal experiences as indecisive composers do not shed light on what Beethoven et al were up to 200 years ago.
@@DismasZelenka You lost me at "serious musicians". Your condescension is tiresome and boring.
Your videos are instructive entertainment in themselves. I got you email about joining the notation course and will follow it with interest. That sonata is one of my favourites and I like to play somewhere between the single and whole beat speed.
Wow, sick spiel! XD So much pathos w/ the Ode playing in the background.
You are so right. Beethoven en never heard his works played so fast. If we stand back and really listen our tempos today’s are actually comical !!!!!! Like silent movie piano. Silly and dumb
Is there a source that tells us that Beethoven used pedal much more often, throughout his career, for passages he didn't mark it for in the score?
yes, Czerny tells us Beethoven used a lot more pedal than he indicated.
Czerny does but it not clear where. His Simrock edition adds some pedal but not by much do we might assume that the difference between score and practice were very small. As a fact, for the Hammerkl. he wrote that every detail for the execution is in the score, thus including pedal markings. take a look at those and notice how different compared to mainstream and hip today!
@@AuthenticSound well, Czerny did write that Beethoven 'used a lot of pedal, much more than is indicated in his works.' That does not seem to point to a 'very small' difference as you think. He also asks you to vary the dynamics in repeats of Scherzi, where is this in the score?
And if every detail of op. 106 is in the score (quite a Stravinskian claim actually), why don't you keep the pedal for the whole fugue? There is no release after the intro.
@@jorislejeune Don't Beethoven's works work well even if there is no extra pedal used?
@@petertyrrell3391 Does Vivaldi work in Max Richters arrangements? Does Bach work in the version of Wendy Carlos? Does Bach work on the piano? If so, in Feinbergs version, in Goulds, in Schiffs???
If you prefer Beethoven without extra pedal, don't let me stop you. But the original question was not about taste, but about 'a source'.
26:45 I am still listening
It seems to me that some pianists take excessive liberties with the music, reinterpreting it to fit their own preferences, much like Star Wars fans who insist they know George Lucas's true intentions better than he does. ( Why did Beethoven include Jar Jar!?...I MUST fix that! ) IMHO, Pianists are nothing more than fan fiction authors.
9:00 For the simple reason the Julius Caesar didn't speak Italian,
Yes I'm still here
Hi Wim, I really love your videos and interpretations! You mentioned that period instruments aren't as fast as modern grand pianos, but I've heard quite a few pieces played faster on period instruments-like, for example, in this th-cam.com/video/xEuyQBYZL7s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QiAjzZUa0F5xWJdt
I'm curious how they manage to achieve that speed. It would be great if you could make a video discussing this particular recording series of Beethoven sonatas on period instruments!
Thanks so much for your amazing work!
If I go for the cd box, do I still get access to the digital flacs or is it either one or the other?
the Cd box comes with Bandcamp (hires files and streaming) too!
26:58 Still here Wim 👍
Today’s virtuosity will never give up conquered ground. Very big egos today.
so no 'asides' about 'assai'? lolol
There are so many egregious examples of this type of interpretation. Early Wagner seems to be a casualty. If anyone heard recordings of the overture to Das Liebesverbot you'll know what I mean. You just lose all the texture from the music and I can't believe that is how Wagner had intended it.
The problem with all this Wim is that even if you are correct (whatever that looks like) - which I don't think you are entirely. Nobody will care, people prefer the tempos that are assumed, there is no way you are going to get very influential institutions to renege on this, to do that would be to admit that they've been teaching things incorrectly for a very very long time. It's just not going to happen.
Wim is not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater. He knows well what the established norms are. But his project is to show a more authentic tempo, closer to the composers' original intention in their time, and deal with problems that are in MMs. You can have both, and enjoy whatever you prefer. There is enough space for all of it to exist.
@@pottedrodenttube I hear what you are saying but it feels.. and has always felt, that Wim is much more concerned with being right than representing classical music in a non self serving fashion. The problem with what you are saying is that people actually aren't interested in pieces up to 50% slower than what they are used to hearing. As I previously said, people prefer the faster tempos, as do I.
Hi Wim! 😂
Modern virtuosos are very ignorant with huge egos.They know nothing of the composers intentions! Fast fast faster. They laugh at metronome markings because they don’t understand them . The whole beat method makes sense. 2 rocks not one with maybe 10- 20 percent more but that’s enough. Everything becomes listenable and comprehensive only then. I know. I played everything too fast but after watching your channel I’m now in your camp. I studied at Juilliard . I now think that that Juilliard ruined so many pianists and violinists because none of the teachers understood tempo
I gotta be second then 😂
This is all just a bunch of sour grapes. You could easily learn to play at tempo with relaxation and economy of motion. But no! You have to insist the metronome markings are all wrong?!?!? smh
show it
For Wim or anyone to learn to play the Beethoven Opus 2 No 3 sonata at speed, will take a great deal of practice and a very good... i.e. professional level .... technique.
Not everyone is able to attain this or desires to do the kind of work necessary.
So the jury is out on whether Wim has the ability to play this sonata up to speed.
Relaxation and economy of motion won’t “cut it” for 15 notes repeated per second or Czerny’s other Opus 299 which requires 22 of notes non-repeated notes per second. No one is stopping you from recording a video of relaxation-economy of motion in single beat metronome and contacting Wim Winters to upload on his channel to refute Whole Beat Theory. FYI, 22 notes per second is beyond the human nervous system’s to distinguish individual tones. No one has passed 13.73 notes of a single note using both hands. Czerny requires one hand on various notes repeated notes and the left hand playing an accompaniment. You bring nothing to the table except an unsupported opinion (nothing new on the channel).
So put up or…eat your sour grapes…
Im first again
Mozart never wrote any metronome markings. Not only was the metronome a later invention, but the composer never even used other timepieces, such as the chronometer or the clock, the use of which played a much too minor role.
and?
@@AuthenticSound
Playing Mozart slower can really bring out the nuances in phrasing and emotion, allowing listeners to fully absorb the beauty of each note and harmonic progression. In the absence of metronome markings, it’s up to the performer to decide what best serves the music, and sometimes a slower tempo can reveal layers of expression that might otherwise be missed.
yes, of course, it is always up to the performers - what we do here is figure out how these metronome marks were used. We do have however MMs for Mozart and Haydn, from Moscheles, Czerny and others. Of course, that is later, but still very close to that time.