Does a Vacuum HURT Marinades??
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2024
- Does using different forms of vacuum cooking help or hurt meat marinading?
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Hi everyone! You should come to OpenSauce, June 15-16 in San Francisco! I'll be there along with dozens of extremely cool and talented creators! It'll be amazing!!
What happened to king of random?
Here before poplar
What if you poke holes in them first?
It makes sense the vacuum meat will be more tender, while sat in that vacuum the cells would start to burst and reduce the overall integrity of the meat.
I find freezing my left over fajita meat in a vacuum bag makes it more tinder on the reheat. my logic is the juices expand when frozen, tenderizing the meat.. left overs better than off the grill. something you can do a blind taste test with your friends with. tomatillo, avocado, onion, cilantro, lime. all that in a blender, great with chips or on a taco.
Quick math: 15 psi over a square foot is literally a ton. To open that vacuum chamber at full vacuum would require a literal ton of force.
His pressure is closer to 13 psi - but the point still stands.
a ton? everyone should be able to lift that lid off..... (after opening the valve)
You only have to lift an edge enough to break the seal though (not saying I could do that, but someone might).
@@nohjrd if you would lift a ton only on one edge, you would still have to lift at least 1/4 of it (probably even more than 50%). As long as there are no specific handles that could take that force, i would assume they would just break off, if a person strong enough would try.
Exactly, not a simple task. (15psi * 144² inches (12in x 12in) = 2160lbs per square foot)
Another idea: Compare Vacuum marinated meat vs pressure marinated meat (putting the meat with marinade in a vacuum sealed bag, and putting the bag inside a pressure chamber).
Don't forget ultrasonic sonication while we're at it
no simple deduction would assume it’s considerably less effective than the actual vacuum
@@pan2aja finally a reason to break out my turbo encabulator.
@@pan2aja the ultrasonic stuff is for making instant whiskey out of vodka, not steak
@@gormless-idiothmmmm…. Steak Whiskey. That sounds like a bajillion dollar idea!
I have a consumer vacuum chamber for marinading meat. It attaches to the accessory hose port on my food sealer. It works by cycling between pressured and unpressured states (i.e.: depressurizes, holds for several minutes, repressurizes, and repeats this cycle 3 or 4 times). I can’t say it works _better_ than just leaving meat in a marinade in the refrigerator - but it does seem to complete the same process much faster (15 minutes instead of hours).
It makes sense that cycling would work. I'm guessing depressurizing does very little. It seems like it's the repressurization that would push the marinade into the meat. So I can believe cycling would do that more.
Marinating meat, not marinading. You marinate with a marinade.
I dont know if food coloring accurately shows marinade penetration as food coloring binds to protein but the marinade doesn't, so the food coloring and the marinade can separate when you put it on protein
You might be right, but mixing it with the marinade. You would assume that it would be sucked in with the marinade because it’s diluted. It’s hard to say really.
So essentially you would be eating a chicken flavored filter. That would explain the texture.
This goes beyond just colouring, for example if you put salt in your marinade, that will penetrate through the entirety of the meat if you leave it long enough. I would like to see someone properly test what can and can't penetrate further, because you're right, adding food colouring only shows how far the food colouring penetrated
The issue with your experiment that I see is that you must pull a vacuum with the meat submerged in the marinade multiple times in a row. For example pull the vacuum then let the pressure off as quickly as possible, then do it again for several times. Each time the marinade will get slammed a little deeper into the meat. Also using a carder type tenderizer tool to first pierce the meat many times over will make a huge difference in the marinade up take. Thanks Nate! A very interesting video. By the way the vacuum marinating machines in pro-kitchens do this very thing(multiple vacuum pulls and releases of pressure). I have seen this done before and the aromatics penetrate very deeply, color is harder to penetrate. Thanks again!
Right? That's what I'm thinking. Cause the meats to draw in the fluids when pressure is restored to normal. Leaving it in a vacuum I would think, is the same as leaving it on the counter.
@@JamesP33R Thanks for the comment.
Also, cycling the pressure might increase the tenderizing effect.
it would be interesting to see if a pressure chamber did anything
I agree, I think the marinade would soak in deeper than the other methods. So Nate, get a pressure pot and try different pressures etc. Or you can try a method used for epoxy, vacuum first then the pressure pot.
Put something heavy on it. A pressure chamber would crush it, so it's essentially the same thing. There's no way to simulate a vacuum without special equipment, though.
@@craftiebrown not really places like kfc use pressure cookers to cook food faster so doesnt really squash it. would would be really interesting is pressure pot then vacuum chamber then back to the pressure pot or even vacuum chamber to pull the air out then pressure pot to push marinade in where the air was
I was going to suggest this, I'm glad I looked to see if someone else had first ^_^'
@@krisqo I'm sure theres a way to hook both a vacuum and a compressor up to the same pot, to save swapping vessels for each cycle, but I was going to suggest this too.
Maybe for a laugh, stick some of the result into a freezedrier too, just to see what that does ontop of everything else
When I worked for Maple Leaf Foods, the process of making Pastrami deli meat included large steel rotating cylinders that used vacuum suction to stretch the meat so the spices and nitrates could penetrate deep in the meat, then we spiked them, hang them, cook to temp, cool, slice, packaged and shipped out.
And using pressure to marinade meat would somewhat be useless due to pressure squeezing the meat rather than stretching with vacuum suction!
Marinades aren't known to be particularly effective after an hour. There's a reason it's typically 6-12 hours depending on tradition, and I'd wager that an hour isn't actually enough time for valid data.
Right, but most people who marinate don't do it in a vacuum sealed bag or under vacuum, thats the reason it takes 6-12hrs is because it just sits in the fridge and naturally seeps in. This is a fast way to do it.
A vacuum will be much quicker because the pressure from air is so low to 0. Once the pressure hits max, it will not take long for you to get functionally the maximum amount of marinade into the meat.
What Nate has done is basically recreate the numbers from the papers that Ragusea was referencing in his video
What neither of you seem to get is that no, his numbers aren't comparable - it's just another variable, adding complexity rather than a side-grade measure. Calling it the same is lazy/bad science.
@@T.BG822 neither one of us called it the same lol.
@@T.BG822 this video is lazy on many levels. In addition to the issue you mentioned, there is also the issue of osmotic movement of food coloring vs anything else.
This video really just shows how people make assumptions about science but don’t actually think it through, generally because of a lack of understanding what is really happening and why.
You totally missed out on a massive opportunity to simply put holes in the meat with a fork. In my experience using a vacuum chamber and doing it right, it basically equates to 1 minute of punctured meat being as marinated as a whole day just sitting in the marinade. Beer marinated bratwurst in a chamber are incredible too because they aren't such a solid piece of meat. When you let the pressure back in with bratwurst, you can see all the marinade squirting out as they shrink back down.
"I've never tried that so that's why I'm doing this experiment today" God I love that mindset
I believe that the meat pieces, like the marshmallows, had a fair number of the inner cells burst resulting in texture differential.
Only for the meat it was water being moved from a relative higher pressure to lower of the chamber. Which didn't really allow for salts to transfer in since there was a stronger force moving outwards. As for the beef being more tender, similar principle of water being pulled out of the cells.
It would be interesting to see the meat thing done again, only this time weight prior to vacuum and then again after to see if there's a appreciable difference.
I’d be interested in seeing the results after multiple hours, maybe even comparing the different methods at different time periods.
And smoke it as well
Marinade the meats in an ultrasonic cleaner.
Next stop: overnight vacu-marinade test
@@bobweiram6321That would be tenderizing the MEAT, and I think Nate - or maybe King of Random, while Nate was running it - had tried this already... Or SOMEONE did... Gouga maybe? 🤷♂️
_(my old brain ain't what it used to be!)_
I wonder if the vacuum caused the cells to rupture. It would be interesting to compare the vacuum chicken/beef to one that got freezer burn.
Freezer burned space chicken, lets just make it a whole new thing and combine the two.
Plus it could be a pretty cool jazz fusion band name.
Both of what you guys said are what I thought might've happened...
Except I think it wasn't freezer burn, but that it started to COOK from the water boiling as it was drawn out. (vacuum lowers booking point)
So the rubbery/chewy texture was from the outter layer being basically cooked twice, is my thinking.
My guess is that it does, cause that's apparently what happens to meat in hard vacuum of space.
Great video, as usual. One point of note...
"Marinate" is the verb that food soaking in a marinade, "Marinade" is a noun that refers to the liquid or sauce used for marinating.
Really good editing on this video, Nate. Tight script, succinct, entertaining. Keep up the good work!
I’m honestly so happy you almost have 1mil, you and Cass seriously did amazing on TKR and actually made it educational.
The weird texture on the 3rd steak and chicken samples is from the same thing that happened to the marshmallows. Under vacuum, the cell walls rupture, just like the air bubbles in the marshmallow. The longer the vacuum exposure, the more cells rupture, the worse the texture. This is how there is more penetration of the marinade, even if slightly. It's the same thing that happens when meat is frozen slowly and thawed quickly - cell walls rupture from water freezing, and you get a weird squishy texture. Get a microscope and do this again. Thank Alton Brown for explaining this to me in an episode of Good Eats a long time ago.
Biochemical Engineer here:
The cell membranes in the meats have ruptured from the vacuum, releasing the juices into the space between the cells, causing a rubbery texture as you eat the deflated cell membranes.
I would suggest trying to pressurize the meat (maybe 10 bars) to push the marinade into the tissue (inside of the meat will be at lower pressure than the outside of the meat because of the cell membranes
I gave up asking people to try this stuff years ago. Thanks for working on it!
Enjoyed this experiment! Anything with food is a plus for me, cooking & baking are just an edible form of chemistry
I remember, as a kid, my mom had a food saver vacuum saver. It had an attachment for mason jars or mason jar like vessels that you could use to “vacuum save” items in jars or as the infomercial advertised shorten marination times of meats.
Vacuum infusion only works with porous materials with air pockets, like wood being stabilized with infused resin. The best vacuum infusion food recipe I've come up with is watermelon infused with fresh squeezed lime juice. I got the vacuum infusion idea from the NY Times website, where there's a video of cucumber being vacuum infused with a martini.
Exactly. While it didn't occur to me right away, I realized it after the first blue chicken marinade example.
The point of the vacuum chamber would be to replace air pockets with liquid. Meat doesn't have air pockets. The vacuum isn't pulling anything out of the meat for the marinade to replace.
My vacuum bag sealer is a vacuum chamber. You put the bag in the chamber with the opening between heating elements. The chamber is pulled down to a pretty good vacuum, the bag gets sealed, then the vacuum is released.
Very cool video Nate, btw the cook on the steaks looks SO good.
What if you put the marinade in a 100psi pressure pot? Maybe the hige pressure air will infuse the meat more. Or you could also put the meat in a hydraulic chamber with no air, but 3000psi of liquid pressure.
I’m so glad you’re still making interesting videos. Thanks for posting.
Maaan I see a new nfti video right before bed?! Time to do some in the field testing on sleep depravation I guess lol
An idea for a future video. Trying different methods to tenderize meat and see if that makes a difference in anything.
we miss you ... please make more videos. we really enjoy them, thank you
Nate, you could try adding an electronic valve like a solenoid to the top with a separate, larger hole to allow a large, more instantaneous release of air in place of lifting the top off.
Great video Nate.
i use vacuum marinading when i make beef jerky. i have found that the marinade flavor seems to have better penetration and a more consistent flavor throughout instead of the flavor just being on the surface of the meat. but that's just my experience.
The preasure of the pressure chamber changes the boiling point of liquids and changes the stability of compounds it also won't infuse flavour unless you do a proper vacuum infusion like prepreg infusion. Chicken is a very easy to break down protein so it's not recommended for this type of experiment
Install a larger dump valve in the lid and you can simulate removing the lid under vacuum.
why is your channel more popular? you have such great ideas!
instead of pulling out the air after instant vacuum in the chamber, you should let it suck air for those marinating hour, bc my theory is the instant vacuum that you're pulling from the chamber is basically the same as the vacuum sealer
My father made a kind of low vacuum/pressure chamber out of a Sam’s club pickle jar and a hand pump that he used to switch between adding pressure & and taking it away. He said it helps the fibers “push & pull” apart to let the marinade get between them. He would spend hours marinating everything overnight changing between the low & higher pressure.
He swears by it but I think it’s more likely the fact that he used one of those meat tenderizer blade things on anything he put in there 🤷♀️
Yeah, I'm thinking that, too. There's a reason why large stores like Costco and Aldi blade tenderize a lot of (if not all) of their meats. It gets the job done fast and the texture is more consistent. Whether you like that texture is another matter entirely.
I’ve done this for years with my chamber you should do something like caribou it interesting how the meat expands and changes color it also boils the water at room temperature and breaks all the cells and it stays expanded when I released the pressure.
I was surprised this wasn’t a Guga Foods ad for his new vacuum marinade thing, but then I got to the results and knew why. 😂
Nice to see you cutting the meat with one of your home made knifes aswell. Good going nate :) also rubberised gummy chicken a new taste experience!
I work with pressure chambers in my company. I have noticed, that only applying a partial vacuum is not sufficient in my filed. In some of our applications, we have to pressure cycle. So basically applying a vacuum and afterwards slight overpressure. Since you only have a vacuum chamber, releasing and re-applying the vacuum might have a similar effect. (Cycling it in 1hour steps should be good)
Fascinating that the texture changed. Never would have thought of this, but it makes sense possibly due to cellular rupture?
What if you need to do multiple vacuum cycles to let the air out of the meat then the marinade in to replace it?
You do I've actually run this test but my vacuum wasn't nearly as strong...
So the pink color in cured meats comes from the nitrates in the curing salt binding to the myoglobin in the meat and the pink smoke ring comes from nitrous oxide from the incomplete combustion of the wood binding to the myoglobin.
I'd be interested in see you use your vacuum chamber to remove the ambient air and fill the chamber with nitrous oxide to see if you could either make a fake smoke ring or completely cure the meat.
I would like to see some experiments involving caramelization. In particular, I'm wondering if there are ways you can devise to get the same kind of reaction on seared steak or sautéed vegetables with foods you normally wouldn't expect.
Hey Nate, I know this is weird but have you tried to freeze dry meat? Then afterwards marinading the meat in a vacuum? I just wonder what kind of changes meat will have when it's freeze dried, would it turn into something like beef jerky? Then because all the liquids inside the meat is gone due to the freeze drying, would vacuum marinading allow the marinade to penetrate further because there is no liquid that the marinade has to replace, it just has to fill in where there used to be liquid but now there isn't due to the freeze drying. I believe the marinade doesn't flavor much on the inside because of the juices already in the meat, there is no flow of the marinade into the meat and the juices in the meat out and being replaced by the marinade. So the pressure of the liquid outwards would equal the pressure of the marinade towards the meat and therefore the marinade stays put outside and doesn't go far into the meat.
If I had to guess the vacuum chamber is causing gasses dissolved in the meat liquids to expand and come out of solution. These expanding gasses are trapped inside the meat and this might end up rupturing cell walls or stretching meat fibers. This is my speculation as to why there's a tenderization effect.
Nyquil chicken flashback just hits hard 😂😂
Next vacuum marinade experiment.
Try to vacuum the marinade thru the meat vs meat sitting in it. (Possible capillary action?)
I have a pressure pot I used for resin stabilizing wood blanks. It can pull a vacuum and then push about 60 psi. I should clean it out and see how the switch hit of vac-press works on it.
I imagine the vacuum chamber ruptured and separated the cells and fibers of the muscle, leading to the different texture. As many others have pointed out, both the method and time would probably have a bigger impact if changed. Trying a longer time and comparing it with high pressure instead of low pressure would likely have more interesting results. Another comment i liked suggested that using the vacuum chamber and then after a short time repressurizing it repeatedly might have a more significant impact, but again I'd be worried about the texture, especially at that extreme of a vacuum.
Does a marinade penetrate and taste different via tenderizer {Thor's hammer with spikes, vs stabs via fork} also what's usually suggested 4 hours vs overnight!
I wish you had used a vacuum chamber sealer as well. I know it's pretty close to a normal vacuum chamber but I have never noticed a texture difference and I do taste a difference when marinating in a bag using it.
FoodSaver makes and sells "chambers" specifically for marinading and brining. What you might be interested to try - something I use to great effect - corning or brining meat longer-term with curing salts in a vacuum chamber. Once you add the curing salt, it completely changes it. I'll usually corn or brine a a cut of beef for a week in a chamber, and then finish off the final 24 hours with the curing salts added. For your acid, pyrolytic works the best.
Would love a nfti and Adam collab
Same here. Adam is probably my favorite food TH-camr.. although he's doing less food and side projects like his fish tanks these days.
With that experiment of Adam's how do you know that the food coloring can penatrate the meat? I watched his video a while ago, so maybe he addressed this. It could be possible that the food coloring can't go that deep, but things like salt can.
Interested in this one.
Guga would be proud!
Hey Nate, I know I’m a little late to this one, but it makes much sense that the steak is more tender because the primary purpose of a marinade is to tenderize the meat. The flavour is just secondary so when you pulled the vacuum on that piece of meat was able to tenderize it faster same way you can make dill picklesin a vacuum chamber in about 15 minutes instead of the weeks, it takes to do it without the vacuum chamber
Ive often thought of this myself
Now you need to work with Guga again and try this as a tenderizing experiment!
6:40 I do a lot of home canning, you don't need the ring once the lid seals. The ring is just there to keep the lid in place BEFORE it seals. Matter of fact, with canned foods, you SHOULD remove the ring. If the canned food isn't perfectly preserved and something alive in there starts spoiling and producing gas, eventually it'll pop the seal and the lid will come off. But if the ring is still in place holding the lid on, it'll form a false-seal, and you've now got yourself a jar of botulism probably.
So here's something I'd like to try. Take raw meat and just straight up freeze dry it. Pull out all the moisture while keeping the structure intact. Then pressure-cook it in a bowl of marinade, and see how THAT works.
its called the 15 min. marinader vacuum and i absolutely love it and use it almost everytime i cook and not one person i have ever served food to complains or even notices the texture on all meats
"Bright blue, just like Mom used to make it" Percy Jackson?!
If the mechanism is the vacuum release forcing the marinade into the meat, then what you want to do is cycle the pressure. Also, if the vacuum is tenderizing the beef, maybe you should try it on a very tough cut. Something like what would usually be ground.
My guess is the vacuum is pulling down the acid through the meat, and also my guess would be the denser the meat fibres the more difficult it would be to pull the marinade. I would love to see this in a longer time scale
It’d be interesting to see if *vacuum cycles* do something different, kind of like what you do with resins. Thinking being that might actually infuse the marinade in the meat.
I wouldn't be surprised if the tenderness has more to do with the mechanical stresses that the meat fibers experienced in the cycling of vacuum and much less to do with marinade exposure. A good way to test that is to see what happens with a marinaded piece of meat in the vacuum chamber vs. one that was cycled through vacuum and then marinaded afterwards; maybe also throw in one piece that was cycled multiple times before marination just to see if it's really all about the vacuum action.
Marinating also uses the process of osmosis. Depending on the level of salinity, adding moisture to a piece of meat, and possibly carrying flavor in to it as well.
I would do the test a second time, also using a brine solution.
My understanding of stabilizing (the resin method you compared the camber marinade to), is that you have to leave the object in the liquid for 2x the time in was under vacuum, to allow the liquid to get full penetration. Maybe that was a factor for the color test.
Would love to see you cover this with brines (high salt content for longer marinating time actually penetrates the meat) vs marinades
is there a way to set up the vacuum so that all the air is pulled out then when you release the vacuum marinade is pulled into the meat? or does that not work.
I'd be interesting to see a crossover with Guga where he dry ages something in a vacuum and then maybe try the tenderizing thing but like with an actual like poking tenderizer versus like a hammer tenderizer
Thank you so much for doing this! Id long wondered this myself, and i finally have an answer to my question.
I have to say, though, I'm very surprised by the result; I very much expected that, if not the vaccum itself, then at least the repressurization would drive the surrounding fluid into the meat.
Perhaps there's not enough rigidity in the protein/substrate of the meat to 'spring back' and exhert a drawing force on the marinade/atmosphere?
Very strange. A part of me still expects the mechanics to work, even after very difinitively seeing them not.
Dude... I've stuck with you since the beginning... this is why... Great video, so interesting~!!
A followup on this would be cool. Maybe longer times. Try 24 hours, 48 hours and 72 hours maybe. Also maybe try a pressure pot. Sort of like a vacuum chamber but instead of pulling a vacuum you add pressure to it could force the marinade into the meat better.
Also, the texture change is interesting. As far as I know the main use of vacuum marinators is to make jerky so the texture change might not matter as much there or it might even help it since it made the beef more tender
I love the cooking content
Marinades are usually done from any where 4-12 hours because it takes time for the marinade to really work plus you need salt to help with the osmotic action which helps the marinade to penetrate as well as deepen the flavor because well salt. Try it again with those variables in mind.
All these food experiments make me hungry. I'd even eat the blue chicken.
Very cool
My guess is the vacuum chamber applies an almost stretched force on the meat while marinating. And since bird meat has more collagen than cow meat, and it doesn't break down in acid as quickly that's likely what's being left behind and making it feel gummy while the beef just breaks apart.
way to go nate 721k subs wow !!!!!! we just stated out bee keeping you tube and have no idea what we are doing lmao .... keep up the good work its better then having a job
Off topic but need an assist. Got a question how would you input a multiplicative equation into a calculator like the following. 10+(10 x 1%) 100 times. When I try I just keeps going lower percent.
Vacuums lower the boiling point of liquid. So the marinades done in an actual vacuum will cause the outer layer of meat to lose some of it's moisture. Yes it was in a marinade but the direction that the liquid travels between the marinade and the meat is reversed. So while you would get the flavor the texture would alter significantly.
We have to see a eye round with guga sous vide, inside of a vacuum chamber under vacuum for the entire cook and then again pressure say up to 30 psi
Now I'm super interested in seeing if the vacuum chamber steak is more tender (in a good way) when cooked well done
You should try to cycle the vacuum. Texas Distillers have a tough time aging their spirits because of the temperature fluctuation between day and night, forcing spirits in and out of the barrels via expansion and contraction. A 5 year age in some cases can be similar to a 20 year age in a stable environment. This same idea could be tested in with your marinade, sucking the air out and letting it return on a cycle.
I always stab the hell out of meat with a fork before marinating. All those tiny channels seem to allow flavor to penetrate deeper and all the holes pretty much tighten and seal back up during cooking.
That marshmallow demonstration was actually quite neat to see. I never really thought about how vacuum bags don't squish your food.
Can you cook faster in vacumm? I know a presure cooker port increases the preasure to cook faster but what happens if you decrease the preasure and create a vacumm
Bro casually cooks perfect chicken breasts for an experiment
nice experiment nate, tell guga
You're on The Discovery Channel now.That's awesome
Thank you, Nate. Now I want marshmallows and steak. 😅
I always use a vacuumbag because you need a bit less marinade. And it will also prevent meat from floating on above the liquid.
If I understand correctly, vac-bags are more used to prevent oxidation and spoilage; meaning it can be stored for longer and not suffer "Freezer-Burn"
I have a FoodSaver(tm), and that's what I use when I make a bulk shopping trip.
The unit I have does have a sous vide setting, but I have yet to try it.
It would be interesting to see that if you insert a vacuum probe in the middle of the item that it would pull items in versus out because looks like with the vacuum it's pulling everything outward versus inward
Lime can cook your chicken too adding to the weird texture. An increase in atmospheric pressure may yield better marinade results.
That was an interesting experiment! I am curious if there is a difference vacuum sealing in a bag, vs vacuum sealing in a bag with a chamber vacuum sealer. I have both and like the chamber because I can seal liquids. I vacuum seal for freezing and never thought it might change the texture.
Surprised at the results 😮