QI | Why Don't We Not Have Double Negatives?
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This clip is from QI Series N, Episode 5, 'Not Nearly' with Sandi Toksvig, Alan Davies, Gyles Brandreth, Jimmy Carr and Victoria Coren Mitchell.
A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day. "In English," he said, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative.
However," he pointed out, "there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative."
A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right."
i hope the owner of that voice got a cookie
oh, no! In Russian proper double negative gives you a positive as well. Это я вам, как носитель, говорю. But a lot of times we use one negative to accentuate the other and thats the time when it doesn't. Let's just say it is tricky =)
That voice? Albert Einstein.
relies on sarcasm
It’s not the double positive that makes the statement negative, it’s the intonation, like if you say **sure** that'd still represent a negative idea because of the intonation.
Gyles being ready to launch into a full lecture on the English language just to help Alan think for a little while longer is the definition of the bro code
No he wasn’t. He was just trying to hijack time like he always does and Alan buzzed in to shit him up! 😬😂😂
@@cabrown308 No the smile and Thumbs up shows he was helping Alan
@@cabrown308 Er -- "shut him up," I hope!
@@stevevasta Either would do!
When he said there were half a million words in the English language, I was worried he was going to use them all in his answer.
I want Fry on the show as a guest panelist! Make it happen lol
And make him get a blue whale question right.
and ask him what they say about the acropolis
where the Parthenon is.
What do they say? What do they say?
Nah
Could have dodged the problem entirely by just saying "I _do_ want points". That's a perfectly valid answer to the question and saves you the trouble of having to decode all the double negatives.
What I was thinking!
In fact that's the right answer. Like the other lady said (I forget her name) it wasn't a yes or no question, the correct answer would've been 'i do'. Adding 'or not' didn't actually make it a triple negative, it just made it a double negative question followed by another question which is the opposite.
etheldir128 "Do you want Coffee or Tea?" is not two questions. It is one question with 2, 3 or 4 valid answers, none of which are "Yes".
Either way, my main point was that it couldn't be answered with a 'Yes', which you agree with. Although your example is quite strange, it would be better to ask "Do you want Coffee or not?" which again, shouldn't be answered with a yes or no without some ambiguity. (Although I think most would agree you would be saying 'Yes' to the first part, the 'want coffee' part, rather than the 'or not' part.
John Francis Doe Sandi said there were only two answers. If "no" was going to get a klaxon and the correct answer is "I want some points", then he should have got a klaxon for simply saying "yes". As you said, it's not a valid answer to this type of question
Double negatives? That's a no no.
Hilarious!
I was listening to a director commentary for a film where the director said at one point "we did about 15 take of this and James never once didn't not look into the camera."
booooo....
The Afrikaans language in South Africa derived from Dutch and Afrikaans is full of double negatives.
"Ek hou nie van hierdie boek nie."
I do not like this book not.
But a better direct translation would be: I do not like this book no.
To us if you leave the second no, the sentence sounds half said.
I'm so glad Victoria flagged the issue of it not being a yes or no question because Alan was snubbed when he addressed that very legitimate concern.
Victoria is one of the smartest people to ever have gone on the show! Absolute legend.
But she was wrong it is a yes-no question
Don't you not want some points, or not?
i.e.
Do you want some points, or not?
Answer: yes/no
Technically, in terms of formal logic, this is a yes or no question.
Let's say, I wanted to know if you're male. All I'd need ask is: "Are you male?" and you'd respond yes or no.
If however I asked "Are you male, female or are you non-binary?", by formal logic I'd be actually asking you, if your gender is among these three options. And since I'm giving the full set of possible options, again by formal logic, your answer would have to be "yes (I am one of these options)".
Ofc by common sense and normal use of language Victoria and Alan are right. But if you asked a linguist, philosopher, mathematician or computer scientist, you'd get that technical answer.
@@augustaseptemberova5664 Actually, yes is the only reasonable answer to this question, because you either want points or you don't. There isn't a third option, so it's a tautology. It's like asking "Does it rain or doesn't it?", the correct answer is always , because it can't be half raining or something like that.
If the question were "Do you want some points, or do you want no points", would be a valid answer, e.g meaning "I don't care" or "I don't want some points, I want all points".
For a mathematician/computer scientist, Victoria and Alan are absolutely right: AlanWantsSomePoints ∨ ¬AlanWantsSomePoints = ⊤
It is actually a two part question to which the answer to both parts would end up being something like,"Yes, I do want points because I don't not want them."
Actually, Alan's right - by introducing 'or not', it is a two-part question. (Edit: Victoria's even more right.)
'Don't you not want no points?' would be a single question with a triple negative.
Actually it's only a double-negative (making yes the correct answer). The first Don't is a fake-out that doesn't actually negate anything. For example: "Do you want points?" and "Don't you want points?" would both be correctly answered with a yes.
AllUpOns13 “or not” isn’t a proper negative either though. “Do you want some cake or not?” The answer is still “yes” I would like some cake
And the only possible yes/no answer to "Don't you not want no points?" is "No." You cannot have "Yes" as an answer to a "don't you" question.
No, it's a logical conjunction: p or not-p. And that is always true.
I must admit I still don't see why Victoria is right. It seems like a yes/no question to me.
This clip has SO many wonderful things in such a short time. Sandi speaks Danish and is gloriously deadpan, Victoria is really clever, Jimmy has a smart remark about Alan, Alan is filibustering and Giles makes a too big deal out of the question. What more do you want!?!?
Stephen Fry back.
Giles to stop cutting in. Or just editing him out completely. Better yet, don't invite him in the first place.
More cowbell.
Jimmy seemed unusually dumbstruck.
@@ArtistAllanWest Oh, he cracks me up (the good way).
"Je ne sais pas" is not a double negative. It's a simple negative consisting of two parts (ne... pas)
No it isn't
'Ne' is the negation, 'pas' the qualifier. 'Pas' on its own has come to mean the same thing as 'ne... pas' thanks to the 'wesh' kids in the street. Other qualifiers are 'point', 'personne' etc. Nevertheless, it would be irregular to see 'ne' by itself.
Thank you, I was looking for that comment :)
Agreed. When I was studying basic French, we were taught to use ne ... pas together. It's a single construct, not a double negative.
A double negative implies that one negation cancels out the other, which is not how ne...pas is ever interpreted.
Thank you generic account! That old poof babbling about french having double negatives is just so annoying!
There is a double marking for the negative in french because the original marker, NE, is so easy to miss. That is why the verb is framed by ne-pas, in a negative sentence.
Originally, it was just a medieval word play to complete a negative sentence with a logical complement, as in:
I do NOT walk STEP (je ne marche pas)
I do NOT drink DROP (je ne bois goutte)
I do NOT stitch THREAD (je ne coud point)
I do NOT eat CRUMB (je ne mange mie)
etc.
Over the centuries, this system narrowed down to ne-pas and ne-point, then only to ne-pas in modern french.
Recently, there is even a tendency in colloquial french to drop NE entirely, only to keep PAS as the only negative marker.
In Danish she's saying: "So they thought, many years ago..."
Thus missing an opportunity to say in Danish "They say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is"
She forgot a preposition though but I assume her Danish isn’t as fluent since she probably doesn’t use it much. Her pronunciation is quite good though
@@michaelwinge3042 thank you, we do keep trying 🤣
@@michaelwinge3042 Git gud, Norwegian scrub.
@@michaelwinge3042 Being scanian I had no issue. Curiously both danes and other swedes have a hard time picking up scanian...
I imagined Stephen Fry's ghostly voice telling Alan to let go of his conscious self and trust the Force, just before he answered.
He's still alive.
Impossible. If Fry had asked the question, Davies would have said BLUE WHALE
🤣
"The show's nearly over; I'm filibustering."
Partner immediately goes off on a tangent to give him time, perfect
And yet this was the first question asked during the episode, LOL.
@@SiKedek First question in the edited episode, keep in mind they have been said to sometimes edit out hours worth of content to fit an episode
Americans ain't got no problem with double negatives.
ParadoxapocalypSatan
not no damn none.
They would shoot them if too many came together in one place anyway....
And they are not wrong!
Language doesn't need to apply maths rules any more than maths needs to apply language rules - it's a silly affectation to say that double negatives are a problem in English
Is that why one of the most famous songs to ever come out of England showcases the line "I can't get no satisfaction"?
@@brokenwave6125 but 'any' would sound so wrong
It's funny how this thumbnail uses the split second cutaway to Victoria laughing at Alan as he ties his brain in knots trying to answer this question, and it's somehow IMMEDIATELY obvious, in that split second, that she had instantly figured out the answer.
Man, she's just razor sharp.
It's no wonder she married David Mitchell and his relentless logic.
They really operate on the same wavelength, except he's overtly goofier, and she's overtly far more serious.
Victoria is totally right, you can't answer an "or" question with yes or no, except if you ask "Yes or no?". Like "Do you want apples or oranges?"
Yes ... either ;-)
You can answer 'yes' to your example though.
You are right, that was a bad example, as it isn't clear in the question that the one asked had to decide on one option.
do you want apples xor oranges?
Miguel Perez I don't know, I said yes as soon as she asked because it feels right.
Do you want points or not?
No would just be no.
Yes would be "Yes(I do want points)"
all this talk about double negatives when the real answer is "I do want points"
Dear leader are you from new zeland?
Japanese avoids this by never ignoring the negative. "You'll have lunch, won't you?" In Japanese, "Yes" means I won't have lunch. It's confusing to us because we're so used to ignoring the negative that "won't you" doesn't even seem negative.
@@misterkite Yeah, Korean also does this. So, if you were to ask "an gaseyo?" [Are you not going?], if you responded "ne" ('yes'), this means "Yes, I'm not going." If you were to respond with "aniyo" ('no'), this means "No, I'm going." So, it seems that Japanese and Korean rely on confirming or denying the polarity in which the question was offered, whereas most Indo-European lgs rely on the propositional value - whether the proposed situation is in accordance with what the respondent understands or not.
This is utterly wonderful. All 5 are clever and very funny. Sandi speaks Danish and Jimmy fires off " I think I've had a stroke" which I thought was funny as hell but Alan tops it by saying " I think a body's been found"!
Victoria was so frustrated watching Alan trying to parse the question. Hilarious.
Why though? It's confusing.
She's the smartest person in the room. It's tough, take it from me :)
Such a sad comment from Neil
@@neilgerace355 holy shit thats the cringiest comment ive seen in a while
@@neilgerace355 Yep. She is working out the answer faster than the others but also, because this is a convivial, non-competitive jolly show, it would be the act of a show-off to interrupt them with the right answer so soon.
I feel like more collective energy was put into squelching Giles than actually answering the question.
On a related note, one thing that English really misses is the equivalent of si in French or doch in German. It’s a yes to a negative question.
In English any yes or no answer is ambiguous.
So when asked “don’t you like my new haircut?”, you can’t give a one word answer.
If you say yes, the that could be taken to mean, “yes, I don’t like you new haircut” because yes is a word to agree with the question. But it could equally mean “yes, I DO like your haircut”, because yes is positive in the sense of the action in the question.
But if you say no then that can be taken to mean “no, I don’t like your new haircut” - negating the action in the question, when you actually meant to negate the question itself ie “no (negating the question), I DO like your haircut.”
With the word doch or si, it’s always meant as yes to the action being negated IN the question. So you if you say doch to such a question, it’s always contradictory in the positive sense, ie doch, ALWAYS means “no, I DO like your haircut” - negating the question with a positive action, but in one word, unambiguously.
Anyone want to start a campaign to bring “doch” into common usage in English? 😜
You couldn’t use “si” as that word in various spellings has quite enough meanings in English already!
It's mentioned (in this episode even, I think) that English used to have them (yea and nay), but they're not used anymore.
Particular funny in an episode in which one repeats the fallacious idea of "English as the language with the most words".
I hate this! I've been wanting people to use doch, it's such a useful word in German. That's why I was struggling with the question posed to Alan, because both yes or no could be interpreted in different ways
Saoirse del Tufo
THE REVOLUTION STARTS HERE!
I suggest just using it in conversation and then look at people funny when they ask you what you just said 😛
The closest is "I do" or "I don't", two words though.
I love that the clip is 80% Alan but the thumbnail is Victoria, because of people like me
That was great. I could watch Victoria, Sandy and Alan all day.
Surely the response should be “I would like points”.
Funniest double negative I heard was when two men were arguing and one said "I'm not no fool."
Archer Ponty Quite basic in american english: I aint no fool
Johannes Ehrig Some people these days even add a second "be" in the continuous and say "I ain't bein' no fool."
Well some people shouldn't be allowed to talk then
Johannes Ehrig I absolutely agree that some people shouldn't be allowed to talk. Anyone trying to spread the word of God for starters.
That's kind of like Ain't Nobody by Chaka Khan.
The amount of negatives in the sentence isn't even the problem here. Sandy added "or not" which requires the answerer to choose one or the other - you don't choose ONE by saying "yes" after being asked which you want. The question is ultimately about "points or not" or "do you want points or not want points", so Alan saying "Yes" ends up meaning "Yes, I do want points OR don't want points". An either/or question doesn't have a yes/no answer (except colloquially, but c'mon, this is QI), unless you're answering yes or no to BOTH options. If they're going to dig so deep into semantic trickery, and require a logical deconstruction of the sentence, then they have to get the semantics and logic right. And it's not. Victoria is right.
Sandy also messed up by repeating the question as either "Don't you not want points" and "Do you not want points" which are opposite. But it doesn't matter because the question has two options anyway.
If someone says, "Choose one of the following: points, no points, negative points" the response to that is not "YES". If you're asked "Do you want _this_ OR _that?"_ you're being asked to choose one option. Colloquially, one option is being presented as the primary one, so _colloquially_ we might accept a yes/no answer as referring to the primary option. That is because we are willing to accept illogical constructions in casual speech. Casual speech is NOT NOT NOT what is happening here.
If the question is "Do you want one of these options?" then "Yes" is an entirely valid answer. Generally, there's a follow-up question: "Which?" which conventionally people volunteer the answer to as a way of saving time (leaving the answer to the original question to be deduced).
Or they are going for a linguist's interpretation of the question rather than a logician's, in which case it reduces to "Do you want points?"
+All_Roads
Yeah, in that scenario, the question is being asked, not in order to gain information, but rather to convey it - to make the kids aware that not going to the movie is a possible outcome.
A logician is delivering a baby. The husband asks: "Is it a boy or a girl?" The logician replies: "Yes."
A joke among friends: do you want Beer or Wine?
Yes.
(chuckle) This reminds me of when I was young. My father used to ask us questions that were all twisted up in double negatives and watch our little brains sizzle.
no matter how it is asked, the question is always a 'do you....' question. Do you not know that that isnt not the incorrect way of reading the situation?
When Sandi said "I didn't mean I'd go back to it", I sprayed soup on my computer.
Sandy was a good pick for the new host
The Generalissimo agreed
Still not as good as Stephen though...
I think she's a bit better than Steven.
@@TheSmart-CasualGamer She isn't not worse than Stephen
Victoria would have been a better choice, shame she has another show.
"Wadsworth, am I right in thinking there's nobody else in this house?"
"Um... no."
"Then there is someone else in this house?"
"Oh, I'm sorry, I said "no" meaning "yes"."
""No" meaning "yes?" Look, I want a straight answer, is there someone else, or isn't there, yes, or no?"
"No."
"No there is, or no there isn't?"
"Yes there is AND no there isn't"
"Good god man, just give me a straight answer !"
"Well we are in the house, so yes. But presumably you did not mean to include us , so no."
"...."
"To be fair your question somewhat ambiguous."
I love that movie so much
What movie/show is this from?
@@lendmesomesugar97
Clue, with Tim Curry and Madeline Kahn
Afrikaans has double Negative. "Ek praat *nie* Engels *nie* " "I speak no english no"
Moenie nie kak praat nie!
@@brianmays1731 Gaan weg
@@michaelkennedy8573 Bliksem!
I love how Sandi always reins in Giles ❤️❤️
Someone has to
Jimmy Carr nearly had a stroke, he just couldn’t reach.
i hate his fake laugh
Actually there's a huge difference between "je ne sais pas" and "I don't not know". What in French and Italian are called double negatives are just a redundant and more articulated way to negate, but the meaning is the same. Whereas if you say "I don't not know", you're actually saying "i know".
Yeah it's a pleonasm not a double negative
"Or not" isnt a negative, it gives you the choice, it makes it a multiple choice question with the answers "i do" and "i do not"
The question was "don't you not want some points", which is a double negative. Do not you not want something?
Here's how I thought about it, when restricted to answering "yes" or "no" how do you answer the following:
"Do you want some points?" - Yes.
"Don't you want some points?" - Yes. Technically affirming the negative, but no English speaker would ever interpret it that way.
"Do you not want some points?" - Yes. Same as above.
"Do you want some points, or not?" Yes. Technically two questions, but if you think about it, people will always assume you're answering the first question, and not the "or not" part.
Therefore:
"Don't you not want some points, or not?" - The only sensible answer is yes.
How much confusion you cause with your question can depend on which words you stress. For example, if you deliberately stress the first "not," the question becomes much more confusing.
"Don't you NOT want some points, or not?
However, if you stress the word "want" instead, or don't give any particular stresses, the question seems much more straightforward, even if it is a grammatical nightmare.
"Don't you not WANT some points, or not?"
Additionally, answering "no" is still valid and would only logically indicate that you simply don't want some points, and not that you want points removed (as I suspect would happen, should Allen have answered no). The correctness of Allen's answer would depend on if he genuinely did want points, or would in fact rather not have more. And frankly, given Allen's typical performance on the show, the idea of him not wanting any points doesn't seem too far fetched.
Crazy that this thoughtful, lengthy response only had 2 likes. You have my support!
That was so frustrating! No one finished any point they were making
You've obviously never seen the show and don't understand it at all...
The thing with "not unusual" is, it's intended to be a double negative, a trope called litotes, meaning an affirmation of the positiv. Not unusual says much more than just usual. This trope can be found very often in literature, especially ancient roman and greek literature, they loved this stuff.
Is it not that “not unusual” is simply a more convoluted way of saying “it is usual”.
It wouldn’t make for a better song though.
@@Bucketheadhead Perhaps a better example is "I don't disagree", which, to me at least, is meaningfully distinct from "I agree"
@@Bucketheadhead"not unusual" has the nuance that, while the subject isn't weird, it's also not normal.
pretty much equivalent in meaning to "a bit unusual", except to me "not unusual" feels slightly more positive about the unusualness than the other
Giles Victoria and Allen all picked up on the problem with the question, but Sandi didn’t seem to get it. The “or not?” part made no sense in the context of a yes/no question.
"Je ne sais pas" is not a double negative just so you know :)
"Ne" forms the negative and "pas" isn't really meant to be used on its own, even though most French people would use the informal form of "Je sais pas".
A French double negative would be something like "Je ne peux pas ne pas le faire/I cannot NOT do it"
Notice how "ne pas" appears twice.
Double negatives not being, in point of logical fact, the same as positives, it were not unwise of us to have them; did we not, we might never venture to know what it were to not have them.
I always find that ‘’don’t’’ makes double negatives a lot more confusing because we say “don’t you” which actually means “do you not” instead of “do not you” like it should do if we follow it literally. It makes things much easier to follow if you replace don’t you with do you not when decoding double negatives.
"I do want points" would've been my answer.
Sandi's danish is pretty good but it's also kinda funny to hear, it sounds extremely foreign.
It sounds extremely native to me.
all the words are right but the tonation( if that's what its called) and the flow flow seems a little choppy. AFAIK she was born in denmark to one danish parent and one english and didn't spend much time in denmark so her sounds a little like she grew up in the countryside or she learned it through duolingo or some app. but are you danish?
"She is the least benightedly unintelligent organic lifeform it has ever been my distinct lack of pleasure not to have been able to avoid meeting." -Marvin the Paranoid Android
it is impossible for both The Answer and The Question to be known in the same universe, as they will cancel each other out and take the Universe with them-to be replaced by something even more bizarre.
Ah! He should have said "I don't not", instead of "yes"
"Is it too early to lose the will to live?"
My spirit animal
Jimmy's comment, after Sandi's Danish....best laugh of the piece!
Firstly that wasn't a "yes or no" question, but an "either or".
Secondly "ne___pas" is not double negation but rather a negation consisting of two words. "ne" on it's own doesn't mean anything. At least not in modern french. I'm a bit annoyed that this false information is coming from QI of all places
QI is stuffed full of false information. Get used to it.
It's still negative concord, which is the point they're trying to make, albeit clumsily. And you have identified Jespersen's Cycle, such that French used to just use "ne ...", then it developed to "ne ... pas", and it is further developing to just "... pas". The point is that negative concord - two negative elements interpreted once - is an entirely natural phenomenon, and it's probably because of mathematical reasoning that it became stigmatised in Standard English, since it used to be totally acceptable. That much is true.
There was an Episode back in Stephen Fry days where they worked out the percentage rate at which incorrect information appeared on QI
There is false info in every episode.
+Mayya Freehold Yeah it was called the 'rate of decay of facts' or something like that
I loved Stephen as host and I'm so glad they replaced him with Sandy. If there HAD to be a replacement, I think she's perfect.
You ask this question in America and the entire network would melt down
Sandy's Danish didn't really make sense. She said "Så i... De tænkte mange år siden, at øhm..."
It means "So in... They thought many years ago, that uhm..."
Impressive accent though! I had no idea.
Well she was born in Copenhagen
@@sfojulius Ah, that explains it. I had absolutely no idea.
@@DirtyPoul You should hear her story about moving to a posh English school...with an American accent she learned in Denmark, she ended up getting her accent from an actress in a British film she watched back in the day
So Victoria and Alan had an advantage in latest taskmaster episode!
Of course the answer is yes. But because of statement logic:
"Don't you not want points or not?" Translates, because of double negatives, to "Do you want points or not?" Which is always True in statement logic.
❗❗
Error detected: Don't is a contraction of "do not" so the true breakdown is "do not you not want points, or not?"
The "do not you" is obviously syntactically incongruent with typical English so we swap them around, leaving us with:
"Do you not _not_ want points, or not?"
Hence the discussion about double negatives because its quite literally a double negative.
*Laughs in Spanish* "I don't want nothing" " Are you sure you don't want nothing?"
"Yes, I am."
uh FYI "Je ne sais pas" is not a double negative, "ne ... pas" or "n' ... pas" is the standard form for the negative in French. "Je ne viens pas" (I am not coming), "je n'ai pas" (I do not have). There's no double negative, it's just that we require the use of both words "ne/n' " and "pas" to form a negative. That's all.
Thank. You. Sandi should have gotten her own klaxxon for that one. Strangely, in VERY casual Canadian French - the "ne" can be dropped but the "pas" survives (yielding "Je viens pas" or even "J'viens pas') very casual - never outside family/friends though.
oh yeah, same in France, colloquially you can skip the "ne" and the meaning is not lost :)
It's still negative concord, which is the point they're trying to make, albeit clumsily. And you have identified Jespersen's Cycle, such that French used to just use "ne ...", then it developed to "ne ... pas", and it is further developing to just "... pas". The point is that negative concord - two negative elements interpreted once - is an entirely natural phenomenon, and it's probably because of mathematical reasoning that it became stigmatised in Standard English, since it used to be totally acceptable. That much is true.
Aditya Sanjeev Voilà un changement en cours. C’est la prochaine étape du cycle de Jespersen.
Vraisemblablement oui. Mais je crois que le changement est ralenti par l'écriture et la culture française du prescriptivisme linguistique.
Double negatives that you see in colloquial English and I believe in Russian and some other tongues work by way of 'negative agreement' in the same way you might decline an adjective for gender or number or whatever. 'I ain't got none' has the 'none' agree with the negative verb (or maybe vice versa, or bothsidedly). It isn't incorrect grammar, it's simply a dialectical feature. Actual double negatives to shape a positive in all dialects of English usually come with different ways to highlight that you are actually indicating a positive, like saying 'I ain't got *none*'. Otherwise, it's just negative agreement
Victoria's right (as usual) - it wasn't a yes-or-no question, it contained an "or".
A "or" question can be answered with a yes or no. It is true that I either want an apple or I don't want an apple.
@@torinju
Me - "Torinju do you want an apple, or do you not want an apple?"
Torinju - "Yes"
@@AykayENG Oh, I would totally answer a question like that in real life.
That might be why I don't have friends.
@@torinju well at least you said yes in my little roleplay. As Sandi says in the video, a yes is better than a no
I had so have been many "or" questions lately that the only legitamate answer was "yes"
This is ridiculous. "Don't you not want points?" Is not a double negative. The phrase "don't you" in English is commonly understood to actually mean "hasn't it been suggested that you" or it's meant to convey the feeling of incredulity towards someone. For example, "don't you want french fries" is equivalent to "hasn't it been established that you want french fries" or it could be that the questioner is incredulous as to how the person being asked could not want french fries. "Don't you" does not mean "do you not". Think of how you would answer the example question. If you wanted french fries, then you would say "yes". But if the question is understood as "do you not want french fries" this is incorrect. So clearly this not what we mean when we say "don't you".
I have talked to quite a few people of different nationalities, and there is one kind of question I have learned never to ask.
I just hope I will one day learn to ACTUALLY never ask it, but it's progress just to know it when I mess up.
Anyway, in English (as well as my native language), you can ask a question where the answer "No" is a confirmation.
Such as "Don't you want a cookie?".
In English, if you answer "No", you are confirming that you do not want a cookie, whereas if you answer "Yes", you are disputing the claim that you don't want a cookie, and say that you actually do want one.
The problem is that in many languages, this is reversed. And so if they answer "No", they are saying that they disagree with your statement, and that they do want a cookie. Whereas if they answer "Yes", they are confirming your claim that they don't want a cookie.
So I have learned not to ask such questions, and rather ask "Do you want a cookie?".
Many people claim that if you say you don't want a cookie, you're mad. But that wasn't the point. The point was just not to ask a question that implies a negative.
I think you are a wise person who avoids confusion. Kudos to you
Only the literal think a double negative just means a positive. In reality, the reason they are used in polite double speak is that it gives a qualified support rather then unequivocal. For example...You would be naive if you thought “I do not disagree with you” meant “ I agree with you”. What it does is raises a sub text of “But”....which means the ‘agreement’ clause is not without reservation.
"Do you want X or not" - "Yes, either of those"
Sandy's question is just poorly phrased. It was meant to be confusing. There is only a prohibition of double negatives in some formal written English. Our language is not mathematics; it just doesn't work that way. "I ain't going to do no dishes" clearly indicates that the subject is refusing to wash the dishes. Emphasis and intonation, as well as context and speaker/listener relationships also play a great part in the meanings of English utterances and statements.
This double negative prohibition is like the ban on splitting an infinitive or ending a sentence with a preposition, rules made up by prescriptionist 'authorities' who refuse to see that English is spoken by creative and improvisatory human beings, resulting in a language whose usage can only be described.
0:47 Imagine if he had randomly said: "The answer is... The Blue Whale."
LoL ThaT wOUlD Be sO RaNdOm!!111!! LOL11
Double negatives are a definite no-no.
I don’t actually agree with this. Surely if someone says “do you want some points or not?” And you had to answer yes or no, you’d say yes, so this “not” becomes redundant. As well as this, if someone said “don’t you want some points?” You’d also say yes, so this negative becomes redundant. So at the moment the sentence is “don’t you want some points or not?” Which by the logic I’m working with, the answer should be yes. Finally, by adding the extra “not” in there, it’s flipping it around. So with “don’t you not want some points or not?”, the answer should be no.
Basically it's "do you or don't you want some points?"
I agree with the people who say the answer is "I do"
They're still debating whether 'irregardless' is really a word. In my view, it is, because people say it, but it shouldn't be because it's an ugly and unnecessary invention. We have the word regardless. We don't need to add anything to it.
Wait they've got it wrong.
If I say "don't you want some points?" the correct answer is "Yes, I do want some points"
If instead I say "don't you not want some points?" the correct answer is "No, I do not not want points"
That's what comes to my mind every time I watch this clip.
Don’t is short for do not. Do not you want some points, makes no sense no matter how many negatives you have. It should be “do you not want some points”
@@duke_hugo It's a given that we place the subject between the "do" and the "not" when we expand don't in a question. It's going to be the same in every instance (Eg, "Don't you have some work to do?" is always expanded as "do you not have..." and not "do not you have..."
Although there is one (probably archaic) case where a sentence beginning with do not or does not can function otherwise, but this is a scenario where the statement is used to confirm and assert rather than question (Eg, "Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?")
Most people: I couldn’t care less.
Most of TH-cam: I could care less.
Even tho I do miss Stephen, Sandi is pretty damned good too!
This problem is solved in Malay where instead of agreeing or disagreeing with the question, we answer directly with the verb.
For example, if I want to ask “Do you like it or not?” and you wanted to say you liked it, it would be:
“Kau suka ke tak?”
“Suka.”
Which literally translates to
“Do you like it or not?”
“Like.”
It’s so much simpler and unambiguous for everyone. 😂
And if you don't like it, do you answer "not"?
I didn't even notice Jimmy was there until I heard his laugh 😝
How is "je ne sais pas" a double negative? Isn't "ne pas 'verbe' " the formula we use to negate something?
"not to do" which only includes one negative translates to "ne pas faire"
Victoria Coren is bloody gorgeous. 😋
She's actually Victoria Coren-Mitchell. She's married to David Mitchell.
Gross.
English is NOT the largest language.
Korean is 6 times bigger.
Portuguese is 5 times bigger.
Finnish is 4 times bigger.
Japanese is 3 times bigger.
Italian is %50 bigger.
Just the English thinking they have the greatest something as usual...nothing new.
You can't answer yes or no to a question giving you a list of options
French doesn't use a double negative. It uses a split negative.
Isn’t this wrong?
“Don’t” is synonymous with “Do” in this context. As in, “Don’t you want points” being the same as “Do you want points”. So, just as another example for clarity, saying, “Don’t you want to go home?” and “Do you want to go home?” prompts the same answer.
“or not?” is totally irrelevant. As in if you asked, “Do you want some points, or not?” - “Yes” would be correct. And it would be the same for simply, “Do you want some points?” - “Yes” would also be correct. So “or not?” doesn’t matter, it is redundant.
So, the only negative in the original sentence is the “not” in the middle. The question is effectively “Do you not want some points?”. Therefore, the answer should be “No”. As in, “No, I do not *not* want some points”.
(But also, Victoria is right in that it’s not a yes or no question. But, still if you ignore the “or not?” part of the question, as the show did, it is still wrong to say “yes” as a correct answer)
But then again, if somebody asks you "Do you not want some points?", if you say "No", they will take that as confirmation that you don't want points. Imagine if somebody walks into the room and says "Do you not want some cookies?", if you say "No", they'll most likely say "Okay then, you don't want any". In that case, it's best to say "Yes, I do".
@@ShizuruNakatsu Yes that's a fair point, but while I would say that the questions "do you not want points?" and "don't you want points?" are equivalent (the question implies the answer is yes), the question "don't you not want points?" Is not equivalent and instead implies the answer is no. It's definitely tricky.
Do you not know no one that wants nothing done. Newfoundland job application.
I mean, as long as she ends it with "or not?", it's bound to boil down to "Do you want points?"
This is a lot funnier after watching the bell task from taskmaster 12
The elf who set the question is presuming to know Alan's wishes...
People use double and triple negatives ALL the time where I live (Mansfield, UK), it's practically a normal part of speech, that the answer to the question was straightforward. It only became difficult when I tried to work it out slowly. Weird that
double negatives are a definate no no
As is definate. It's definite. The way to remember is that something that's finite, has an end. An end is something definite.
If you removed the words from the English language that were of latin, greek, german and french origin you would be left with little more than a few grunts and not even that because grunt is of german origin. 3:12
And some Celt.
Oddly enough, in Danish you might very well encounter the double negative in questions but it has a similar issue to British English (as Victoria touched upon) that it very often cannot be answered with a yes or a no since it might still be open to interpretation. An example of these sorts of muddled questions could be "It's not that difficult, don't you agree?" and as Victoria pointed out, you should clarify your answer with a sentence as soon as there's any risk of misunderstanding.
But Danish has a form of yes, Jo, to deal with such questions, which English lacks.
@@bryack
English has yea and nay.
Though they aren't used often today, you could use them for such an instance i believe.
@@a_loyal_kiwi88 Danish "jo" is used specifically as an affirmative answer to a negatively phrased question. I believe yea and nay are more generally equivalent to yes and no.
@@bryack
In Modern English the terms are mostly interchangeable.
However from what i remember this wasn't always the case with earlier English. Though i could be misremembering something i read a long time ago.
Yes = contradicts a negative question
No = affirms negative question
Yea = affirms a positive question
Nay = contradicts a positive question
So English did separate the terms for specific usage once upon a time, but over time started to use yes and no for more than their original purpose.
Though I'm not very competent in this subject, so forgive me if this isn't the same thing.
@@a_loyal_kiwi88 They might take away my internet license for this, but I'm going to trust you on this.
I like that they applaued Sandi for talking in Danish, if anything they should applaud everytime she speaks English !
I never fail to miss any show with Ant & Dec.
The answer is easily "Yes." In the English Language there's only "Yes, I do [want some points]," or "No, I don't [want some points]."
edit: Even if the question is "Don't you want some points?" The answer is still "Yes, I do."
What's wrong with "No, I do." (want points)?
It’s just one of the weird quirks of this language that we’ve.
"Don't you not want some points, or not?" No nay never, no nay never no more
that ends up being a no, though.
@@ArtificialDjDAGX I nil nat accept that
I never will play the wild rover no more
I went to a nail house. I asked for a nail ; )
@@md61211 See what you did there And it's no, nay, never
No, nay, never no more
Anyone else have a massive intellectual crush on Victoria Corren Mitchell?
Yep. Massive.
“fundamentaly yes is better than no" killed it.
In Hungarian we do use double negative, and it can be quite confusing sometimes. They say we're a very pessimistic people. When we're trying to comfort someone, we don't usually say "it's alright", we say "there isn't no problem". Which isn't the most optimistic point of view to say the least, but if you think about it long and hard, it means the complete opposite.
Another example: if you meant that you remember everything, you would have to say "I haven't forgotten nothing". If you forgot nothing, that would mean, you remember everything. But if you didn't forget nothing? That should mean you don't remember everything then, but it doesn't.
First time I've heard Sandi speak Danish. Where can I hear more?
Denmark
you can use double negatives in English
"It's not that I don't agree with you"
that's not the same as "I agree ..." but rather the speaker broadly agrees however the has some reservations
Also double negatives are commonplace in Chinese
Gyles Brandreth, boring for England.
What has always bothered me are the multiple negatives in court decisions. I've seen news articles like "The Supreme Court has refused to review the lower court decision denying the defense the right to refuse to allow businesses to deny service ...". Jeez, just tell me can I do it or not.
That's what having "a fine legal mind" implies!! It's dreadful stuff...
Agreed !!
Sandys a fantastic host so pleased they picked her as stephens replacement
j0nnyism except it’s totally ruined the News Quiz.
Afrikaans also has a double negative