Can you convert your traditional IRA dollars to a SIMPLE if you don’t have a 401K with your employer? I’d like to do that as an option to avoid the pro-rata rule.
Hi, I can't seem to find an answer anywhere on this so thank you for reading. Can I roll-over the money from my IRA (an old roll over from a previous employee) into my current employer's 401K and THEN add 6K into the IRA for a Roth conversion in the same year? My confusion is if the pro-rata rule will count up what I had in my IRA historically for this year and not what I had in it before I did the conversion. So to clarify with an example: Say that in March 2023 I roll my IRA into my current 401K. Then I add 6K into the now EMPTY IRA in April 2023 and then I take that 6K and move it into a ROTH IRA in May 2023. I won't have to pay taxes on what was once in the IRA earlier in the year (before I rolled my IRA into my current 401K?)?
At the time I did a roth conversion I had a traditional open at a different company. I’m in the process of rolling over the traditional so it’s empty. With the pro rata rule still apply or not anymore since the traditional is $0. Thx
Question: if I have a T.IRA with after tax dollars (from contributions from my checking account) and pretax dollars (from prior employer plans, etc.), to avoid the pro rata rule i simply move the pre tax dollars into my current employee 401k plan? How does the employer plan / IRS know I’m moving pre tax dollars? Is there a pro rata concept for when I roll into the employer 401k?
if you don't have any traditional ira, would it be easier to perform a backdoor roth? Essentially opening up a Traditional IRA and a Roth, putting 6K in the traditional and then immediately converting it into the roth and making sure the traditional roth stays at zero balance at the end of the year?
Hi, you had mentioned that if you have a workplace plan, you can’t put money into traditional ira and convert…can you explain this more? At 2:05. So I know you wouldn’t be able to deduct with the traditional, but if you’re putting non deductible money into that traditional ira and then rolling it over to the back door ira wouldn’t this be ok?
Correct, it depends on income if you can also do a traditional Ira with WPP. The non deductible gets tricky if you have current Ira. Checkout my other videos on backdoor Roth.
Thanks for the video. I contribute every year to my SEP-IRA (pre-tax) and roll it into my 401(k) to avoid the pro rata rule. Can you explain how IRS look at the balance of the IRA? Someone said IRS looks at the balance at the end of the year instead of the time when the ROTH conversion happens. Can you please explain? For example, if I want to do the ROTH conversion on 01/10/2022, in terms of pro rata rule, does IRA look at the balance of IRA on 01/10/2022 (time of conversion) , 12/31/2021(end of previous year) or 12/31/2022(end of the same year)? Thanks!
Hey Travis, one more question. Scenario Say: I have rolled over IRA from 401K with Balance of 25K in 2018.Did a direct Roth 5K In 2019, did a direct Roth 5K In 2020, did a direct Roth 5.5K and have Rollover IRA balance 10K In 2021, the Roll over IRA balance is 6K, Opened new traditional IRA for 6K and did Back door Roth on 6K but income was within limit for 2021 is < 200K, So end of 2021, have Rollover IRA balance 6K, Roth IRA and Traditional IRA with $0 Balance (as the $ is converted) In 2022, have a Rollover IRA Balance 3K, added 6K to traditional IRA and moved it to backdoor Roth Year End household income > 220K So In 2021 Whether pro-rata Rule applies? if so how to calculate? Do I need to include in TY2022? For TY2022, Whether pro-rata rule apply? Ifo so what are options? Should I need to pay tax for Roll over IRA and convert to new Roth or move to existing Roth ? If pro-rata rule applies...will it be on the balance transferred in 2018 or the year end balance of the Roth conversion happened?
First of all love your videos Travis. I have a situation which I’m concerned about and wanted I see if this video might help me. I opened an IRA account back in 2021 and contributed $1k. I never invested this amount and just sits in money market. Also I never submitted the 8606 for that contribution. That money is now $1050 currently because of dividends payment. This year in 2023 I decided to do a back door Roth so I contributed $5500 into the IRA acct total currently is $6550. I plan to back door $6500 into Roth. My question is can I use your 8606 tutorial here for my situation? Also not filling 8606 back in 2021 will cause any issue? Thanks 🙏
Thank you so much! This is so helpful! I was planning on converting money in my previous employer's traditional 401k into my traditional IRA account, but it sounds like I shouldn't do it if I want to leverage backdoor Roth IRA?
2. In the previous scenario, I have did the same 6K for me and 6K for my non working spouse in backdoor for 2022 contribution in Apr 2022 itself assuming my income will be > 210K in 2022. also had 500$ in 401K rollover IRA balance. In 2022, income > 210K, now whether pro-rata rule applies? if so, whether its good to move that 500$ of 401k Rollover IRA to new Roth IRA paying tax or moving that 500$ to current 401k? Since 6K is already done in backdoor for year 2022, will it be a problem if I convert 401K Rollover IRA balance $500 to existing Roth IRA?
Hi Travis, I rolled over a 401k from a previous employer this year into a rollover IRA. I also did a Backdoor Roth funding $6k into a traditional IRA and then converted it to a Roth IRA. I don’t really want to move my rollover IRA to my new employers 401k and don’t think I’m eligible for a solo 401k. Can I take out my $6k contribution to my Roth via Traditional IRA to avoid paying any tax?
You could just pay the tax and keep track of non deductible portion in ira on form 8606. The growth attributable isn’t tracked because it’s taxable same as deductible contributions. You can later fix it (not that it’s an error but ideally not what you wanted) since nondeductible can’t be rolled to a 401k. I might consider this if I had enough money in my ira that I wanted to personally manage.
Does it ever make sense to take tax hit (due to pro rata rule) even if assuming I will be in a lower tax bracket upon retirement? For instance I have both nondeductible traditional IRA contributions and SIMPLE IRA and understand I'd pay taxes on the portion of the $6K roth backdoor conversion based on the % of SIMPLE IRA / total TIRA contributions. Is there a % you'd still go ahead with converting the $ in this scenario? e.g., 10% of TIRA is taxable or 20% or 30%? It's tempting to tax a tax hit upfront on part of the $6K and then have the $ grow tax free in the Roth IRA instead of putting in a brokerage account any later paying LT cap gains.
Hi Travis, if I don't have any employee sponsor plan, can I do the following to avoid the IRA Aggregation and Pro Rata rule? 1. Request a rollover check from my current traditional IRA (all pre-tax money) in December; 2. Deposit the check into my bank account and return it within 60 days; 3. Open a new traditional IRA and make a non-deductible contribution, convert that contribution into ROTH IRA immediately (Complete this step by 12/31); 4. Write a check from my bank account and deposit the rollover amount back to the original IRA; Since there's no money in my IRA at the time of conversion and the end of the calendar year, do we avoid the Pro-Rata rule in this case? If so, I can do this on an annual basis without having any 401k plan because we have a 60-day rollover rule every year. Love to hear your thoughts. Thank you.
Clever, but no. You can’t do it. I have a few videos on this topic, here is one of them. Backdoor Roth IRA Pro Rata Rule Avoidance th-cam.com/video/U_O9VoSnVII/w-d-xo.html
Travis, I appreciate all the great content you produce. It’s very informative and helpful! I have a question regarding timing. Say someone has a SIMPLE IRA at work and has contributed after tax to a Traditional IRA in hopes that the work plan would change to a 401k. When the change occurs, this person rolls the entire SIMPLE IRA into the 401k (in January). Can they execute a back door Roth that same tax year or do they need to wait until the following year. I understand that only the principle would convert without tax and taxes would be due on the gains. Thanks for the info!
Rolling an IRA to a 401k by 12/31 of the tax year would remove that amount from the pro rata rule formula for the IRA conversion. So if you backdoored the IRA in January and rolled the remaining amount in December to the 401k you’ll avoid extra tax subject to the pro rata rule. Hope that helps.
I also want to clarify that conversions and rollovers are for the tax year while contributions to the IRA may actually be made after the tax year. The pro rata is based on 12/31 balances and conversions.
Thanks for posting this video! I have a situation where I made a $12,000(for the years 2021 as well as 2022) non-deductible contribution to a traditional IRA, but waited a few weeks to make the transfer to my Roth IRA and have since earned $0.18 in dividend; therefore the total balance in my traditional IRA is now $12,000.18. At this point can I transfer the entire amount into my Roth IRA or can I only transfer $12,000? What are the options I have here? What should I do about the $0.18? If I can only transfer the $12,000 how does the pro-rata rule impact me for the small amount left? Appreciate any help!
Do you have any other IRAs? If not, convert the entire amount and the 18 cents is taxable. That’s all. Add it to 2022 taxes next year. I know it’s a super small amount but that’s what to do.
@@TravisSickle I have the same issue. I transferred $7k in 2022 to Traditional IRA, then in just a few days that it took to do the Roth conversion, it grew to $7000.55, but I only did the conversion to Roth on the $7k (and not including the $0.55). Now it's 2023 (tax filing time) and I have $0.55 left in my Tradiational IRA so too late to correct the Roth conversion to $7000.55. How do I fix this? I want to repeat this back door conversion every year, but I don't want to be impacted by the pro-rata rule each time, so should I transfer the $7k plus change every year in order to zero out the T. IRA? SO that triggers the pro-rata rule again. Seems like there is no way to NOT trigger the pro-rata rule. Appreciate any help. Thanks
Nice video , I have few questions! For instance if I have 400 k in rollover Ira on December 31,2022 and did 6 k back door conversion for 2022 and I am in 24% tax bracket , how much tax I will pay ? Also tax I pay this year ( for scenario we will put 1500$ tax ) , will I get that much amount( 1500$) tax free when I start withdrawing rollover Ira in retirement ? If I stop back door Roth conversions going forward from 2023 , will there be any further tax implications?
Hi Mukesh, the money inside of a Roth IRA grows tax free but what most people don’t realize is the importance of balancing between pre- and post tax accounts. The amount of tax depends on your setup. Look into the pro rata rule as well. Honestly, hire a pro or reach out to our office.
Learning a lot from your videos, thank you! Question: 1.) I've only had non-deductible contributions to my trad IRA, so I would only roll-over the growth to the 401K right to avoid the pro-rata rule? 2.) Or could I just roll-over my non-deductible contribution from the trad IRA to a roth solo 401K?
If I don't have any retirement account and I am also not eligible to contribute to Roth . I went ahead with a backdoor strategy i.e. Traditional to Roth IRA , there will be no Pro Rata Rule applied . Correct? as I do not have any pre-tax amount in my traditional IRA.
Travis quick question, is there a way to do IRA ( either one ), if you are above income limit without tax penalty ? I already have existing Roth and Traditional IRA account with considerable value in it !!
Hello Travis! Great video, you present the information so well, thank you. Perhaps you would know the answer to a question I have? Say I want to do a "backdoor Roth" conversion, I've transferred all tax-deferred traditional IRA's into my 401k so I have $0 traditional tax-deferred IRA's, and invest the max $6000 into a traditional IRA without deducting any of it for this tax year. If my $6000 investment grows, to $6100 for example, would I be able to convert the full $6100 to a Roth IRA without paying any additional taxes? Or is there some rule saying I can only convert the $6000?
You will fall under the pro-rata rule again. The $100 is now taxable when it comes out in a conversion or in retirement. You might be able to roll it into the 401k and then pull apart the non-deductible contribution and covert that in-plan conversion. That's a lot of work to save a few dollars. Moving money around in retirement plans can get complicated very quickly.
@@TravisSickle makes sense! You're right, just pay the tax and forget about it. I appreciate your answer. It's pretty silly that they put an income cap on a $6000 investment. Looking into the future my wife and I might eventually have to try this. Directly investing into a Roth IRA is definitely less of a headache.
It’s crazy how complicated this stuff can get. I wonder if our legislators realize. My money is on they have no clue. They see the theory not the actual application or implementation.
@@TravisSickle reading about the latest legislation proposals for retirement accounts for individuals with $400,000 of taxable income and $450,000 for married taxpayers filing jointly, I feel they should raise the income cap for investing in a Roth IRA to those amounts if it passes. That would at least save us some headaches :)
Question- I maxed out my Roth IRA for 2021 via back door conversion method, using post-tax money from my paycheck, but when it came time to file taxes today I was confused at the potential tax implications of this strategy since the 1099R Schwab gave me included it as a “taxable amount.” My traditional IRA is always sitting empty since I only opened it to utilize the back door method, so I don’t think I need to worry about the pro rata rule. But are there any other tax implications people should be aware of when doing Roth back door conversions?
Great question...and will be my next video. The 8606 reports the non-deductible portion going into the traditional IRA as a non-deductible contribution. The conversion triggered the 1099-r as taxable but that will get fixed with the 8606 on taxes. You also should be getting or already have two 5498 forms on the contributions to both Traditional IRA and Roth IRA.
Travis, I’ve watched quite a few videos on these Roth conversions that you’ve made, and I have a question whose answer seems to escape my understanding. If I have former employer pretax money that I’d planned to roll into a traditional IRA BUT don’t plan to make any contributions to it as I am still under the AGI income limits to contribute to a Roth right now, is it necessary to roll this pretax money to the current employer plan first since the pro rata rule only applies to sorting out pretax and after tax contributions for Roth tax implications? I’m wondering if I could just simply do the Roth conversion from those pretax funds, while breaking it up over a five year period to complete the Roth conversion? My employer plan uses Fidelity, and while i do have access to their version that tracks the S&P 500 (FXAIX), it’ll probably be the only fund that I’d consider rolling this pretax money to specifically…
There are no income limits for conversions. You’re not talking about a Backdoor so that would work. As for making the decision to convert and add taxes depends on your taxes today and in the future. Conversions don’t necessarily save on taxes.
Travis, thanks so much for the information! One question: I have a traditional IRA where my initial contribution was from a recharacterization of part of my roth. thus was due to hitting that income limit for the first time in 2022. I plan to make only non-deductible contributions to the traditional from her on and then do a backdoor. Would I run into the pro rata in this instance?
What if I do not do conversion to a 401K or 403B? Lets say I backdoored $6000 into a total of $56,000 (of all IRAs), therefore, $642 would be considered non-taxable. However, $5357 would be taxable? Or would all of ~$56,000 would now be taxable? I feel a feeling ~$50,000 would be taxable... smh
Non-deductible / total, that’s the ratio. $6000 / $56,000 However, I’m not clear on your wording. if you added the $6k to the balance or is it $56k + $6k. It should be the total either way.
Hi Travis, I have been searching for information if it is possible conversion traditional Ira to Roth first before backdoor roth IRA. Unfortunately I have only a couple of hundreds dollars left on my Traditonal IRA. I don't mind paying little tax for conversion rather than looking for other way to rollover the small money. And then can I do backdoor Roth soon after that? And,i Can I do backdoor Roth several times a year for total $6000? I hope I can find the answers from you. I have been searching for it quite a while. Thank you so much.
Hi, I am sure you can see this gets complicated fast. It would be best for you to speak with an advisor on specifics. The conversions are calculated based on 12/31 balances at the end of the year. Hope this helps.
@@TravisSickle Hi Travis, a question again. According to your calculation of pro rata rule. Let's say I have previous IRA $8 and contributed a new non deductible Ira 6000( total $6008). If I convert the total$ 6008 to roth right Way before any interest occur do I only get to pay tax on$8 (pre tax money) and no tax on non deductible $6000? Is this how pro rat rulet work? Oh with condition that I have ONLY ONE IRA account. And is there limit of number of conversion per year? Thank you so much again.
@@ng6334 you're correct. ONLY the $8 is taxed. The amounts are calculated based on 12/31 so if you didn't do anything else, then it's the same math, however, just be aware it's all based on 12/31 numbers. You can do as many conversions as you want. BUT...this it's important that you do direct rollovers and NOT distributions (getting a check in the mail then adding it to the Roth). That movement can only be done 1x per year.
So if i have a traditional IRA i maxed out last year at 6000 with nondeductable, and i gained 900 dollars just due to market/dividends growth. Will hte gains be considered nondeductabile as well? i'm wanting to backdoor roth this year but really unsure about this pro-rata rule. is there any benefit of roth IRA vs traditional IRA that is nondeductible ?
This is a good question and I will do a video on this next week...Ideally, you'll want to convert immediately when you do a non-deductible contribution. The $900 is not part of the non-deductible side. It will be subject to pro-rata. Assuming you don't have any other pre-tax IRA, you'll owe tax on the $900 if you convert everything.
My spouse did backdoor roth conversion in first half of 2021 and account balance was 0. She left her job and rolled over employer 401k into traditional IRA account in 2nd half of 2021. There is a significant account balance in Traditional IRA as of 12/31/2021. Will pro-rata rule apply or it will not as there was zero account balance during Roth Conversion?
Hi Travis. Thanks for the great video, I have 2 questions Married filing jointly with non-working spouse, 1. I currently have a rollover IRA (from 401K in 2018 with 25K but value was 10K balance in 2021) and I thought I may cross 210K limit in 2021 year end. So I have opened new traditional non-deductible IRA and contributed 6K for me and 6K for my spouse and moved to new Roth Account 123 for me and Roth account xyz for my spouse, but while tax filing for 2021 tax year, my income was < 190K by which I was eligible for direct Roth IRA contribution for 6K for me and 6K for my spouse. Does the pro-rata rule applies here? I have some balance in my 401k Rollover IRA abc.
Roth conversions can't be undone, unfortunately. The Pro Rata rule will apply since it's still a non-deductible contribution to the original traditional IRA. Also, there is no such thing as a non-deductible IRA. It's a non-deductible contribution to a traditional IRA.
@@TravisSickle Hi Travis, In the above example, to avoid the pro-rata rule, which option is better? 1: Can we move the rollover IRA amount to our existing employer 401k? Does the order of conversion matter? For example, if I convert the Backdoor Roth first (post-tax non-deductible to Roth) and then convert the rollover IRA to the 401K? Since pro-rata rule only takes into account your full IRA balance as of Dec 31st and not on the date of the re-characterization? 2: Can we convert $1,000 of pre-tax rollover IRA and $6,000 of post-tax non-deductible funds to Roth, Or should the pre-tax conversion must match the $6,000 post-tax conversion? Which will trigger the pro-rata for $1k. Keep the remaining balance in rollover IRA( if I have large sum in rollover IRA) I am aware, I will lose the future back door Roth conversion. Is there any IRS document that covers these types of scenarios? I appreciate your help. Regards, Srini.
Hey Travis, great video. Quick question, does existing Rollover IRA creates the same issue of first liquidating the current investment and then converting to ROTH IRA ? Can I still open a traditional IRA if I have existing Rollover IRA ?
A great question! I'm going to do a video on this so thanks for the idea. We have both IRA's and Rollover IRA's in our practice but I have never seen the relevancy to differentiate except for the client's own ease of record keeping (but it's not relevant anymore). There is no difference in a traditional IRA and Rollover IRA. I don't know why brokerage firms don't remove the rollover IRA but they still exist. Probably because client's have them and ask for them so they just keep on doing them. It's irrelevant. As for the Roth conversion, converting positions is possible but some brokerage firms may not allow it but if you're doing your own investing it's likely allowed. Not a law, more an operational thing if you're told otherwise.
Hi Travis. Thanks for the great content. I currently have a rollover IRA with a balance from previous jobs/tax years, and I maxed out my non-deductible contribution for 2022 with 6k into that same account. I'd like to use that 6k from this tax year in a backdoor conversion. Can I re-characterize that 6k to Roth today and then, before the end of the year, roll the remaining balance into my 401k without being hit by the pro rata rule for the entire balance of the account at the time of the re-characterization?
Open and fund a Roth IRA assuming you make under the income limits. You may want to convert your SEP IRA to a solo 401k and then you could also have a solo ROTH 401k. It's possible to do this yourself but if you would like help we can do it. Call our office. Check link in description to book or call.
Can someone do a backdoor Roth early in the year and then later that year rollover an old 403B to a rollover IRA (for larger roth conversions) and avoid the pro rata rule? BTW, the backdoor Roth was done from an IRA that only contained 6,000 after tax and the balance was zero after the conversion).
@@TravisSickle You said yes, but failed to mention that the pro rata rule still applies. It's the balance on December 31 that matters, not the balance early in the year when the conversion was made.
Amazing Information on your Channel. Huge Fan !!! Have a question and probably may be helpful to your larger fan group. Question: I have a Traditional IRA with $54K of Deductible and $6K of Non-Deductible contributions. Want to convert it to Traditional Solo 401K. But have following concerns 1. After Solo 401K conversion will it still retain the Deductible vs Non-Deductible break out ? If yes, how will it get documented (like form 8606) 2. To be eligible for Solo 401K and do the above IRA->Solo conversion, Can i just do a small $X of Uber Eats and show Independent contractor income and hence open a Solo 401K account for a larger IRA-> Solo401 conversion ? 3. Am I eligible for Solo 401K : if I get a W2 due to my part time work at an university (with no retirement benefits) + my Independent Contractor work of Uber Eats Cheers!! Dhwanit
1. Pro rate rule. Non-deductible is reported and tracked on 8606. 1099-r on distribution side of accounts. Whatever wasn't taxed is taxed, whatever was taxed isn't taxed during the conversion. 2. You can do whatever dollar amount you want for conversions. 3. W2 income from another company isn't eligible for a contribution to a solo 401k. If you owned an s-corp that is different as well.
I am employed, high earner and do not qualify for Roth IRA but I have my retirement account. Can I open a Roth IRA for my spouse who does not work and has no retirement account? Thanks
Hi, thanks for the informative video. I have .01$ growth in my money market account in traditional ira When I convert to roth do I need to include this small amount along with 6000$ or should I leave this in the traditional Ira account?
Can you convert your traditional IRA dollars to a SIMPLE if you don’t have a 401K with your employer? I’d like to do that as an option to avoid the pro-rata rule.
Hi, I can't seem to find an answer anywhere on this so thank you for reading.
Can I roll-over the money from my IRA (an old roll over from a previous employee) into my current employer's 401K and THEN add 6K into the IRA for a Roth conversion in the same year? My confusion is if the pro-rata rule will count up what I had in my IRA historically for this year and not what I had in it before I did the conversion.
So to clarify with an example: Say that in March 2023 I roll my IRA into my current 401K. Then I add 6K into the now EMPTY IRA in April 2023 and then I take that 6K and move it into a ROTH IRA in May 2023. I won't have to pay taxes on what was once in the IRA earlier in the year (before I rolled my IRA into my current 401K?)?
July 13, 2023
@@TravisSickle Thank you so much!! I'm finally getting around to doing this :)
At the time I did a roth conversion I had a traditional open at a different company. I’m in the process of rolling over the traditional so it’s empty. With the pro rata rule still apply or not anymore since the traditional is $0. Thx
Question: if I have a T.IRA with after tax dollars (from contributions from my checking account) and pretax dollars (from prior employer plans, etc.), to avoid the pro rata rule i simply move the pre tax dollars into my current employee 401k plan?
How does the employer plan / IRS know I’m moving pre tax dollars? Is there a pro rata concept for when I roll into the employer 401k?
if you don't have any traditional ira, would it be easier to perform a backdoor roth? Essentially opening up a Traditional IRA and a Roth, putting 6K in the traditional and then immediately converting it into the roth and making sure the traditional roth stays at zero balance at the end of the year?
Hi, you had mentioned that if you have a workplace plan, you can’t put money into traditional ira and convert…can you explain this more? At 2:05. So I know you wouldn’t be able to deduct with the traditional, but if you’re putting non deductible money into that traditional ira and then rolling it over to the back door ira wouldn’t this be ok?
Correct, it depends on income if you can also do a traditional Ira with WPP. The non deductible gets tricky if you have current Ira. Checkout my other videos on backdoor Roth.
does the pro-rata rule apply to spouse ira? or only yours own?
Fantastic summary. Thank you
Thanks for the video. I contribute every year to my SEP-IRA (pre-tax) and roll it into my 401(k) to avoid the pro rata rule. Can you explain how IRS look at the balance of the IRA? Someone said IRS looks at the balance at the end of the year instead of the time when the ROTH conversion happens. Can you please explain? For example, if I want to do the ROTH conversion on 01/10/2022, in terms of pro rata rule, does IRA look at the balance of IRA on 01/10/2022 (time of conversion) , 12/31/2021(end of previous year) or 12/31/2022(end of the same year)? Thanks!
I have the same question in my mind.
It's at the end of the year. Whatever your balance is on December 31.
Hey Travis, one more question.
Scenario Say:
I have rolled over IRA from 401K with Balance of 25K in 2018.Did a direct Roth 5K
In 2019, did a direct Roth 5K
In 2020, did a direct Roth 5.5K and have Rollover IRA balance 10K
In 2021, the Roll over IRA balance is 6K, Opened new traditional IRA for 6K and did Back door Roth on 6K but income was within limit for 2021 is < 200K, So end of 2021, have Rollover IRA balance 6K, Roth IRA and Traditional IRA with $0 Balance (as the $ is converted)
In 2022, have a Rollover IRA Balance 3K, added 6K to traditional IRA and moved it to backdoor Roth
Year End household income > 220K
So In 2021 Whether pro-rata Rule applies? if so how to calculate? Do I need to include in TY2022?
For TY2022, Whether pro-rata rule apply? Ifo so what are options?
Should I need to pay tax for Roll over IRA and convert to new Roth or move to existing Roth ?
If pro-rata rule applies...will it be on the balance transferred in 2018 or the year end balance of the Roth conversion happened?
Read up on the pro rata rule. I have a few videos on it. Here is the last one...th-cam.com/video/HkvOEbIl6SM/w-d-xo.html
First of all love your videos Travis. I have a situation which I’m concerned about and wanted I see if this video might help me. I opened an IRA account back in 2021 and contributed $1k. I never invested this amount and just sits in money market. Also I never submitted the 8606 for that contribution. That money is now $1050 currently because of dividends payment. This year in 2023 I decided to do a back door Roth so I contributed $5500 into the IRA acct total currently is $6550. I plan to back door $6500 into Roth. My question is can I use your 8606 tutorial here for my situation? Also not filling 8606 back in 2021 will cause any issue? Thanks 🙏
you need to go back and file the 8606 for 2021 and 2022.
Thank you so much! This is so helpful! I was planning on converting money in my previous employer's traditional 401k into my traditional IRA account, but it sounds like I shouldn't do it if I want to leverage backdoor Roth IRA?
Maybe not, I would get a little self employment income to qualify for a solo 401k and roll it there.
2. In the previous scenario, I have did the same 6K for me and 6K for my non working spouse in backdoor for 2022 contribution in Apr 2022 itself assuming my income will be > 210K in 2022.
also had 500$ in 401K rollover IRA balance.
In 2022, income > 210K, now whether pro-rata rule applies? if so, whether its good to move that 500$ of 401k Rollover IRA to new Roth IRA paying tax or moving that 500$ to current 401k?
Since 6K is already done in backdoor for year 2022, will it be a problem if I convert 401K Rollover IRA balance $500 to existing Roth IRA?
You can do as many conversions as you want. Limits only apply to contributions. A conversion is not a contribution.
Good options - love the creativity
Hi Travis, I rolled over a 401k from a previous employer this year into a rollover IRA. I also did a Backdoor Roth funding $6k into a traditional IRA and then converted it to a Roth IRA. I don’t really want to move my rollover IRA to my new employers 401k and don’t think I’m eligible for a solo 401k. Can I take out my $6k contribution to my Roth via Traditional IRA to avoid paying any tax?
No, can’t undo the conversion portion, law changed from 2017 Tax cuts and jobs act.
You could just pay the tax and keep track of non deductible portion in ira on form 8606. The growth attributable isn’t tracked because it’s taxable same as deductible contributions. You can later fix it (not that it’s an error but ideally not what you wanted) since nondeductible can’t be rolled to a 401k. I might consider this if I had enough money in my ira that I wanted to personally manage.
Does it ever make sense to take tax hit (due to pro rata rule) even if assuming I will be in a lower tax bracket upon retirement? For instance I have both nondeductible traditional IRA contributions and SIMPLE IRA and understand I'd pay taxes on the portion of the $6K roth backdoor conversion based on the % of SIMPLE IRA / total TIRA contributions. Is there a % you'd still go ahead with converting the $ in this scenario? e.g., 10% of TIRA is taxable or 20% or 30%? It's tempting to tax a tax hit upfront on part of the $6K and then have the $ grow tax free in the Roth IRA instead of putting in a brokerage account any later paying LT cap gains.
Sure, in years you have a lower income it wouldn’t matter and you could push more money over to the Roth.
Hi Travis, if I don't have any employee sponsor plan, can I do the following to avoid the IRA Aggregation and Pro Rata rule?
1. Request a rollover check from my current traditional IRA (all pre-tax money) in December;
2. Deposit the check into my bank account and return it within 60 days;
3. Open a new traditional IRA and make a non-deductible contribution, convert that contribution into ROTH IRA immediately (Complete this step by 12/31);
4. Write a check from my bank account and deposit the rollover amount back to the original IRA;
Since there's no money in my IRA at the time of conversion and the end of the calendar year, do we avoid the Pro-Rata rule in this case?
If so, I can do this on an annual basis without having any 401k plan because we have a 60-day rollover rule every year. Love to hear your thoughts. Thank you.
Clever, but no. You can’t do it. I have a few videos on this topic, here is one of them. Backdoor Roth IRA Pro Rata Rule Avoidance
th-cam.com/video/U_O9VoSnVII/w-d-xo.html
Travis, I appreciate all the great content you produce. It’s very informative and helpful!
I have a question regarding timing. Say someone has a SIMPLE IRA at work and has contributed after tax to a Traditional IRA in hopes that the work plan would change to a 401k. When the change occurs, this person rolls the entire SIMPLE IRA into the 401k (in January). Can they execute a back door Roth that same tax year or do they need to wait until the following year.
I understand that only the principle would convert without tax and taxes would be due on the gains.
Thanks for the info!
Rolling an IRA to a 401k by 12/31 of the tax year would remove that amount from the pro rata rule formula for the IRA conversion. So if you backdoored the IRA in January and rolled the remaining amount in December to the 401k you’ll avoid extra tax subject to the pro rata rule. Hope that helps.
I also want to clarify that conversions and rollovers are for the tax year while contributions to the IRA may actually be made after the tax year. The pro rata is based on 12/31 balances and conversions.
Thanks for posting this video! I have a situation where I made a $12,000(for the years 2021 as well as 2022) non-deductible contribution to a traditional IRA, but waited a few weeks to make the transfer to my Roth IRA and have since earned $0.18 in dividend; therefore the total balance in my traditional IRA is now $12,000.18. At this point can I transfer the entire amount into my Roth IRA or can I only transfer $12,000? What are the options I have here? What should I do about the $0.18? If I can only transfer the $12,000 how does the pro-rata rule impact me for the small amount left? Appreciate any help!
Do you have any other IRAs? If not, convert the entire amount and the 18 cents is taxable. That’s all. Add it to 2022 taxes next year. I know it’s a super small amount but that’s what to do.
@@TravisSickle I have the same issue. I transferred $7k in 2022 to Traditional IRA, then in just a few days that it took to do the Roth conversion, it grew to $7000.55, but I only did the conversion to Roth on the $7k (and not including the $0.55). Now it's 2023 (tax filing time) and I have $0.55 left in my Tradiational IRA so too late to correct the Roth conversion to $7000.55. How do I fix this? I want to repeat this back door conversion every year, but I don't want to be impacted by the pro-rata rule each time, so should I transfer the $7k plus change every year in order to zero out the T. IRA? SO that triggers the pro-rata rule again. Seems like there is no way to NOT trigger the pro-rata rule. Appreciate any help. Thanks
Nice video , I have few questions!
For instance if I have 400 k in rollover Ira on December 31,2022 and did 6 k back door conversion for 2022 and I am in 24% tax bracket , how much tax I will pay ?
Also tax I pay this year ( for scenario we will put 1500$ tax ) , will I get that much amount( 1500$) tax free when I start withdrawing rollover Ira in retirement ?
If I stop back door Roth conversions going forward from 2023 , will there be any further tax implications?
Hi Mukesh, the money inside of a Roth IRA grows tax free but what most people don’t realize is the importance of balancing between pre- and post tax accounts.
The amount of tax depends on your setup. Look into the pro rata rule as well.
Honestly, hire a pro or reach out to our office.
Learning a lot from your videos, thank you! Question: 1.) I've only had non-deductible contributions to my trad IRA, so I would only roll-over the growth to the 401K right to avoid the pro-rata rule? 2.) Or could I just roll-over my non-deductible contribution from the trad IRA to a roth solo 401K?
July 10, 2023
If I don't have any retirement account and I am also not eligible to contribute to Roth . I went ahead with a backdoor strategy i.e. Traditional to Roth IRA , there will be no Pro Rata Rule applied . Correct? as I do not have any pre-tax amount in my traditional IRA.
right.
Travis quick question, is there a way to do IRA ( either one ), if you are above income limit without tax penalty ? I already have existing Roth and Traditional IRA account with considerable value in it !!
Hello Travis! Great video, you present the information so well, thank you. Perhaps you would know the answer to a question I have? Say I want to do a "backdoor Roth" conversion, I've transferred all tax-deferred traditional IRA's into my 401k so I have $0 traditional tax-deferred IRA's, and invest the max $6000 into a traditional IRA without deducting any of it for this tax year. If my $6000 investment grows, to $6100 for example, would I be able to convert the full $6100 to a Roth IRA without paying any additional taxes? Or is there some rule saying I can only convert the $6000?
You will fall under the pro-rata rule again. The $100 is now taxable when it comes out in a conversion or in retirement. You might be able to roll it into the 401k and then pull apart the non-deductible contribution and covert that in-plan conversion. That's a lot of work to save a few dollars.
Moving money around in retirement plans can get complicated very quickly.
@@TravisSickle makes sense! You're right, just pay the tax and forget about it. I appreciate your answer. It's pretty silly that they put an income cap on a $6000 investment. Looking into the future my wife and I might eventually have to try this. Directly investing into a Roth IRA is definitely less of a headache.
It’s crazy how complicated this stuff can get. I wonder if our legislators realize. My money is on they have no clue. They see the theory not the actual application or implementation.
@@TravisSickle reading about the latest legislation proposals for retirement accounts for individuals with $400,000 of taxable income and $450,000 for married taxpayers filing jointly, I feel they should raise the income cap for investing in a Roth IRA to those amounts if it passes. That would at least save us some headaches :)
Question- I maxed out my Roth IRA for 2021 via back door conversion method, using post-tax money from my paycheck, but when it came time to file taxes today I was confused at the potential tax implications of this strategy since the 1099R Schwab gave me included it as a “taxable amount.” My traditional IRA is always sitting empty since I only opened it to utilize the back door method, so I don’t think I need to worry about the pro rata rule. But are there any other tax implications people should be aware of when doing Roth back door conversions?
Great question...and will be my next video. The 8606 reports the non-deductible portion going into the traditional IRA as a non-deductible contribution. The conversion triggered the 1099-r as taxable but that will get fixed with the 8606 on taxes. You also should be getting or already have two 5498 forms on the contributions to both Traditional IRA and Roth IRA.
Travis, I’ve watched quite a few videos on these Roth conversions that you’ve made, and I have a question whose answer seems to escape my understanding. If I have former employer pretax money that I’d planned to roll into a traditional IRA BUT don’t plan to make any contributions to it as I am still under the AGI income limits to contribute to a Roth right now, is it necessary to roll this pretax money to the current employer plan first since the pro rata rule only applies to sorting out pretax and after tax contributions for Roth tax implications? I’m wondering if I could just simply do the Roth conversion from those pretax funds, while breaking it up over a five year period to complete the Roth conversion? My employer plan uses Fidelity, and while i do have access to their version that tracks the S&P 500 (FXAIX), it’ll probably be the only fund that I’d consider rolling this pretax money to specifically…
There are no income limits for conversions. You’re not talking about a Backdoor so that would work. As for making the decision to convert and add taxes depends on your taxes today and in the future. Conversions don’t necessarily save on taxes.
Travis, thanks so much for the information! One question: I have a traditional IRA where my initial contribution was from a recharacterization of part of my roth. thus was due to hitting that income limit for the first time in 2022. I plan to make only non-deductible contributions to the traditional from her on and then do a backdoor. Would I run into the pro rata in this instance?
If all the money in ALL your IRA accounts, including SEP and SIMPLE IRA, COMBINED, are non-deductible then no. You will not run into it.
What if I do not do conversion to a 401K or 403B? Lets say I backdoored $6000 into a total of $56,000 (of all IRAs), therefore, $642 would be considered non-taxable. However, $5357 would be taxable? Or would all of ~$56,000 would now be taxable? I feel a feeling ~$50,000 would be taxable... smh
Non-deductible / total, that’s the ratio. $6000 / $56,000 However, I’m not clear on your wording. if you added the $6k to the balance or is it $56k + $6k. It should be the total either way.
Hi Travis, I have been searching for information if it is possible conversion traditional Ira to Roth first before backdoor roth IRA. Unfortunately I have only a couple of hundreds dollars left on my Traditonal IRA. I don't mind paying little tax for conversion rather than looking for other way to rollover the small money. And then can I do backdoor Roth soon after that? And,i Can I do backdoor Roth several times a year for total $6000? I hope I can find the answers from you. I have been searching for it quite a while. Thank you so much.
Hi, I am sure you can see this gets complicated fast. It would be best for you to speak with an advisor on specifics. The conversions are calculated based on 12/31 balances at the end of the year. Hope this helps.
Thank you so much for reply. Will seek more information before I don. Thanks.
@@TravisSickle Hi Travis, a question again. According to your calculation of pro rata rule. Let's say I have previous IRA $8 and contributed a new non deductible Ira 6000( total $6008). If I convert the total$ 6008 to roth right Way before any interest occur do I only get to pay tax on$8 (pre tax money) and no tax on non deductible $6000? Is this how pro rat rulet work? Oh with condition that I have ONLY ONE IRA account. And is there limit of number of conversion per year? Thank you so much again.
@@ng6334 you're correct. ONLY the $8 is taxed. The amounts are calculated based on 12/31 so if you didn't do anything else, then it's the same math, however, just be aware it's all based on 12/31 numbers.
You can do as many conversions as you want. BUT...this it's important that you do direct rollovers and NOT distributions (getting a check in the mail then adding it to the Roth). That movement can only be done 1x per year.
So if i have a traditional IRA i maxed out last year at 6000 with nondeductable, and i gained 900 dollars just due to market/dividends growth. Will hte gains be considered nondeductabile as well? i'm wanting to backdoor roth this year but really unsure about this pro-rata rule. is there any benefit of roth IRA vs traditional IRA that is nondeductible ?
This is a good question and I will do a video on this next week...Ideally, you'll want to convert immediately when you do a non-deductible contribution. The $900 is not part of the non-deductible side. It will be subject to pro-rata. Assuming you don't have any other pre-tax IRA, you'll owe tax on the $900 if you convert everything.
MASTER! Thank you
My spouse did backdoor roth conversion in first half of 2021 and account balance was 0. She left her job and rolled over employer 401k into traditional IRA account in 2nd half of 2021. There is a significant account balance in Traditional IRA as of 12/31/2021. Will pro-rata rule apply or it will not as there was zero account balance during Roth Conversion?
Pro rata will apply. It’s not about the balance at time of conversion. It’s about balance on December 31 of the year the conversion was made.
@@mitcheyfilsaime2753 Correct! She should have waited till early 2022 to do the 401k roll over.
Hi Travis. Thanks for the great video, I have 2 questions Married filing jointly with non-working spouse,
1. I currently have a rollover IRA (from 401K in 2018 with 25K but value was 10K balance in 2021) and I thought I may cross 210K limit in 2021 year end. So I have opened new traditional non-deductible IRA and contributed 6K for me and 6K for my spouse and moved to new Roth Account 123 for me and Roth account xyz for my spouse, but while tax filing for 2021 tax year, my income was < 190K by which I was eligible for direct Roth IRA contribution for 6K for me and 6K for my spouse.
Does the pro-rata rule applies here? I have some balance in my 401k Rollover IRA abc.
Roth conversions can't be undone, unfortunately. The Pro Rata rule will apply since it's still a non-deductible contribution to the original traditional IRA. Also, there is no such thing as a non-deductible IRA. It's a non-deductible contribution to a traditional IRA.
@@TravisSickle Hi Travis,
In the above example, to avoid the pro-rata rule, which option is better?
1: Can we move the rollover IRA amount to our existing employer 401k? Does the order of conversion matter? For example, if I convert the Backdoor Roth first (post-tax non-deductible to Roth) and then convert the rollover IRA to the 401K?
Since pro-rata rule only takes into account your full IRA balance as of Dec 31st and not on the date of the re-characterization?
2: Can we convert $1,000 of pre-tax rollover IRA and $6,000 of post-tax non-deductible funds to Roth, Or should the pre-tax conversion must match the $6,000 post-tax conversion? Which will trigger the pro-rata for $1k. Keep the remaining balance in rollover IRA( if I have large sum in rollover IRA) I am aware, I will lose the future back door Roth conversion.
Is there any IRS document that covers these types of scenarios?
I appreciate your help.
Regards,
Srini.
Hey Travis, great video. Quick question, does existing Rollover IRA creates the same issue of first liquidating the current investment and then converting to ROTH IRA ? Can I still open a traditional IRA if I have existing Rollover IRA ?
A great question! I'm going to do a video on this so thanks for the idea. We have both IRA's and Rollover IRA's in our practice but I have never seen the relevancy to differentiate except for the client's own ease of record keeping (but it's not relevant anymore). There is no difference in a traditional IRA and Rollover IRA. I don't know why brokerage firms don't remove the rollover IRA but they still exist. Probably because client's have them and ask for them so they just keep on doing them. It's irrelevant. As for the Roth conversion, converting positions is possible but some brokerage firms may not allow it but if you're doing your own investing it's likely allowed. Not a law, more an operational thing if you're told otherwise.
@@TravisSickle Thanks for the response.
Hi Travis. Thanks for the great content. I currently have a rollover IRA with a balance from previous jobs/tax years, and I maxed out my non-deductible contribution for 2022 with 6k into that same account. I'd like to use that 6k from this tax year in a backdoor conversion. Can I re-characterize that 6k to Roth today and then, before the end of the year, roll the remaining balance into my 401k without being hit by the pro rata rule for the entire balance of the account at the time of the re-characterization?
Yes, just make sure you don't have any other IRAs with pre-tax money, including SEP-IRAs and SIMPLE IRAs.
Thanks! Is that because the pro rata rule only takes into account your full IRA balance as of Dec 31st and not on the date of the re-characterization?
Hi, I have a SIMPLE IRA with my employer. No 401K. I have a W2 job, also a side hustle that contributes to SEP IRA. How can I contribute to Roth IRA?
Open and fund a Roth IRA assuming you make under the income limits. You may want to convert your SEP IRA to a solo 401k and then you could also have a solo ROTH 401k.
It's possible to do this yourself but if you would like help we can do it. Call our office. Check link in description to book or call.
Can someone do a backdoor Roth early in the year and then later that year rollover an old 403B to a rollover IRA (for larger roth conversions) and avoid the pro rata rule? BTW, the backdoor Roth was done from an IRA that only contained 6,000 after tax and the balance was zero after the conversion).
Yes
@@TravisSickle You said yes, but failed to mention that the pro rata rule still applies. It's the balance on December 31 that matters, not the balance early in the year when the conversion was made.
still work for 2022?
yes
Thanks, good info. So, for someone, employed, with traditional IRA, and high income, doing a backdoor conversion is not advantageous
Right. Essentially just becomes a Roth conversion at that point. Which can still be advantageous
Excellent info. Thank you sir
Amazing Information on your Channel. Huge Fan !!!
Have a question and probably may be helpful to your larger fan group.
Question:
I have a Traditional IRA with $54K of Deductible and $6K of Non-Deductible contributions.
Want to convert it to Traditional Solo 401K. But have following concerns
1. After Solo 401K conversion will it still retain the Deductible vs Non-Deductible break out ? If yes, how will it get documented (like form 8606)
2. To be eligible for Solo 401K and do the above IRA->Solo conversion, Can i just do a small $X of Uber Eats and show Independent contractor income and hence open a Solo 401K account for a larger IRA-> Solo401 conversion ?
3. Am I eligible for Solo 401K : if I get a W2 due to my part time work at an university (with no retirement benefits) + my Independent Contractor work of Uber Eats
Cheers!!
Dhwanit
1. Pro rate rule. Non-deductible is reported and tracked on 8606. 1099-r on distribution side of accounts. Whatever wasn't taxed is taxed, whatever was taxed isn't taxed during the conversion.
2. You can do whatever dollar amount you want for conversions.
3. W2 income from another company isn't eligible for a contribution to a solo 401k. If you owned an s-corp that is different as well.
I am employed, high earner and do not qualify for Roth IRA but I have my retirement account. Can I open a Roth IRA for my spouse who does not work and has no retirement account? Thanks
Depends on income for both. th-cam.com/video/K9FKP4pMLgk/w-d-xo.html
Thanks
Hi, thanks for the informative video. I have .01$ growth in my money market account in traditional ira When I convert to roth do I need to include this small amount along with 6000$ or should I leave this in the traditional Ira account?
Sounds like a rounding error to me.
@@TravisSickle It would really help if you answered the question if the growth amount was not negligible, like $50. Thank you