I bought my boat 16 years ago and it has a wide stern and twin rudders. The strange thing is that I have never had a problem with steering control in port, on the contrary it steers better with two rudders vs boats with single rudders even at extremely low speed. Another weird thing is, I've never had technical issues with the bow thruster in 16 years, but maybe that's because I don't need to use it that often. Finally, believe it or not, we sail faster and with at least the same wind angle compared to single rudder boats. I would also like to point out that a big advantage of twin rudders is that the autopilot is able to steer in strong winds and heeling because the rudder control is outstanding. The boat is an Elan 450
Sounds good. I sold my boat, but I've considered building in two rudders myself. For the old one was old, and if you go to sea, you do not want a rudder problem. Most owners of such boats have checked and reinforced the construction. The owners who race, they got large genakers, the rudder takes huge forces. Those people know what's inportant. The best accident is a bent stainless steel shaft. Rudder pointing a bit off. Oops. If it breaks off, you have an ugly hole under water. But the real reason, one rudder gets in trouble when the boat heels a lot. I don't want that. Two rudders are never dead vertical, there is an angle for a reason. And my last thing you can think about. We are stuck to the ship designs of the last few decades. And most sailing boats are based on fishing boats. How old depends, a lot is end 19th century. Those ships are proven, it was survival of the fittest boat shape. And today, when you buy such a race boat based yacht, you also get all the disadvantages. We KNOW that, I guess most people IGNORE such designs. Nice, but not for me. Thank God my budget is tiny. I just peddle a canoe and I can tell you, that is good. Good luck with those super yachts.
If you own a boat and get out sailing, why on earth would you be watching this moron. He targets idiots with his verbal diarrhoea and false information.
I have had a Beneteau 323 for 18 seasons. It is the shoal draft model with a lifting keel and twin rudders. I have never encountered the problems you describe in maneuvering in the marina. I find that it maneuvers slightly differently from a single rudder, but has definite motion to port in reverse and I find it pretty easy to maneuver, even in tight quarters and even in wind or current.
I own a Beneteau Oceanis 38. I have no issues in maneovering in a marina at slow speed. The lack of prop walk is a real benefit. The two rudders make for excellent moving forward or astern. Secondly, windward performance is excellent. Just 15-20 degrees off of the wind, in 15 knots, I get 8-10kts boat speed with no ‘slamming’ of the hull even in very choppy seas. The hard chine from far forward all the way to the helm prevents a lot of heeling and the twin rudders provide excellent steering under such conditions. Perhaps you had one bad experience or were pushing the boat too hard? I find I less sail to get the best performance…. I have kept up with a Beneteau 46 that had all their sails out (Gen + Main) when I was reefed in with same sail plan to about 2/3rds sail. The 46 was heeled over too much and I was not. We videoed each other and compared notes after. It was clear to both of us that reducing sail not only made for a more comfortable sail, but also yielded same performance.
I have a Jeanneau 39i which is quite beamy, although not as extreme as the latest crop of pie shaped boats, it is still pretty wide. We absolutely love it, and we sail upwind alot. I think people who haven't sailed these modern hull designs tend to overstate the tendency to pound to weather. Our boat is quite fast and comfortable upwind, and it is very well balanced. For coastal cruising I will take a beamy modern boat over a skinny old design all day!
I own a narrow boat, and race on a wide boat. In heavy weather big waves both boats regularly slam in the waves in the most frightening way, but the wide boat is still quite a lot dryer in the cockpit. What I like more in the narrow boat is the safety of the cockpit, on a wide boat it is always a long way down from the rail. But all boats have their perks.
As a very happy Catalina 445 owner, I'd say you hit the nail on the head! Our Catalina sails well on all points of sail, doesn't pound in a seaway with no creaking down below, and is comfortable at anchor. My wife and I are in our late sixties, and find this boat easy to handle in the ocean as well as in tight marinas. She's well built with over sized deck hardware, points well, and sails 5-6 knots in 8-9 knots of breeze. For a fairly heavy cruiser, that's darn good! By comparison, I've raced on a Beneteau Oceanis 45 and crewed on the new Jeanneau 440. I found that neither boat points well... a full 10-15 degrees lower... and both are slow in light air. Also, the swept back spreaders make it impossible to sail dead down wind. While that wide transom helps in heavy air, it's a hindrance in light air, creating a lot of drag. And let's face it, most of us are sailing with our wives and family and most days avoid anything more than 20 knots of wind. So these boats offer very limited sailing performance. Big beamy boats make great "dockominiums", but are disappointing under sail. That's just a fact that doesn't seem to make it into the cruising magazines. Lastly, we're still in love with the interior of out boat. It's beautiful and comfortable with a spacious main salon. I will say that the sleeping accommodations are not as spacious in our 445, but they are more than adequate. The european manufacturers are following IKEA construction methods that (in my opinion) will not stand the test of time. My wife and I went to the Newport Boat Show this year and came away knowing we purchased the right boat 5 years ago. We wouldn't trade her for anything! Thank you Catalina for building a great boat and thank you Practical Sailor shining a light!
What a great comment. Well thought out and in depth. BUT, I too find that boat speed in that wind speed a bit unbelievable, especially for a cruising / live aboard yacht.
I agree with the points you make, though I think we need to be honest and clear about the market research that the volume manufacturers put into the design of these boats. They are very well packaged for their intended purpose. They are second/weekend homes, ideal for entertaining and sun lounging in the med. Typically they will be used at weekends and for a month in the summer - just walk through a typical marina on a windy Wednesday morning and see how many are out there! The charter/flotilla customers will love the space and multiple large cabins and heads. They will give a good turn of speed for primarily day sailing between marinas and sheltered anchorages. They will happily cope with a longer two or three day crossing and occasional overnight passage in good (summer) weather. Yes, they will slam in a blow or rough seas, but these boats won’t be out then and if they get caught out, the double figure cruising speed under engine means it will be a quick dart into shelter. Unreliable bow thrusters? Tired fittings and interiors? Very possibly, but those issues are either under warranty or will become an increasing problem for the second/third owner. Long after the new boat purchaser has moved on to the updated model. The volume manufacturers know their customers needs and the price point they want to pay for the features. Now, if you were looking for a live aboard boat to circle the world in comfort and safety in any weather you would not be in this market segment. Yes, I know people do and good luck and love to them! There are manufacturers out there who will very happily meet your needs of those who want a boat with long legs and they charge corresponding price tags. We can’t complain that an average midrange family car does not have the features, refinements, and practicality of a high spec fully kitted out off roader. Why would we think we could with boats.
A well said and balanced comment. Manufacturers are giving customers what they want. As a rule of thumb, it was once calculated that most recreational boats spend at least 90% of their lives alongside a marina or other sheltered moorings. Having worked in the yacht marina and offshore yacht building arena (circa 1970s, 1980s and 1990s) I've seen the market change to reflect consumer aspirations.
@@wills681 I think it is only half the truth to say that manufacturers build what customers want. Just with cars that nowadays almost all claim to be a sports car and an offroader at the same time, that demand has mostly been manufactured. If asked honestly, very few people would say that they want a boat that turns the V-birth into a slammy rollercoaster and going upwind requires motoring for acceptable comfort. But of course, if you ask people about whether they want space or a boat that planes downwind... And of course, there is all the maintenance issues that will be passed down to the second owner who never gets a real say in what is produced for the market
As an owner of one of those modern hull shapes (Jeanneau SO 440) I can tell you that they absolutely point very well. I have gone a steady 8.5 knots at 30 degrees to the apparent wind for long comfortable passages. They will slam if motored directly into the wind, but if you fall off and sail (they are sailboats) she will heel to the chine and it cuts through the water like a v hull on a motor boat and that twin rudder is now straight down and completely dug in. You are not going to round up. The reason many of these boats don't point well is not because of hull shape, but because owners choose a shoal draft keel, and in-mast furling on a 40 ft boat. Pointing well relies on good sails, sheeted in at the correct angle, and draft. You would help people a lot more by telling them to go with the standard keel and traditional mainsail. Those are far worse modern trends.
@@alkaholic4848 glad you like in mast or in boom furling. Personally I KISS and slab reefing to a sailor who practices reefing and has lazy jacks it takes no longer to raise and set a Main sail or reef down then it takes most roller reefing mains. Now my boat is MUCH smaller then many well healed sailors who can afford a new 40 ft boat but… I don’t even have roller furling on my head sails. I have slab reefed head sails (jib and staysail) and hank on sails. I change sails based on conditions I reef well before needed and the few times I was caught by a squall and it wind went from 7pm its to 20knit gusts in 3 min. (It really didn’t I was just unfamiliar with local weather conditions at that time and made the mistake of thinking oh that squall will miss us) but when it hit my preparations and ability to douse my head sail and reef my main in seconds not minutes I depowerd and not only saved my boat but never even lost a head sail or ever felt out of control. I have seen roller furling both head sails and roller reefed mains Stuck because the load on the sail was more then the roller reefing system could handle and the boat broached and or head sails were ripped to shreds because the sailor relied on the roller furling hardly ever went forward or even ventured out of the cockpit normally so they were big repaired to go forward to unjam a furler that wouldn’t allow them to reef down. They were not even used up going as far as the mast and because of this their boat didn’t have proper safety lines and harnesses to make going forward to reduce sail safely. So ya roller furling is great Ina nice calm day sail when they reef as they should but I have seen far too many boats return with a tattered Genoa that was caught out or jammed. Seen furling lines chafe and snap and all ghe sail roll out while on passage again now a big 150 Genoa is out in 15-20 knots and the skipper is now faces with going forward to try and get it down but that are not used to leaving the cockpit even on a nice weather the thought of going forward in a blow and swell scares the shit out of them as it’s not something the are used to doing safely. Other people have actually died when in mast furling failed and a boom preventer snapped and the boom struck the crew members and killed them huge sail Ina large boat with heavy in boom furler swinging free with a loose main sheet was a recipe for disaster
I’m not even an amateur sailor, sailing is just something I’ve enjoyed when I gotten to spend some time under sail. I have no idea who is right but major points for having a civil conversation with each person having what seems like a reasonable position.
I 've just returned from a one week cruise on a Solaris 40 in the Cyclades. This boat is designed just the way you described, a near perfect triangle. But man, this beast was the best cruiser I've ever sailed! Reaching with a Gennaker at 25kts true wind was like driving a Ferrari, simply unbelievable. Going upwind was equally impressive, 14 kts true and 9 kts speed on the log, even at sub 10kts wind we were seeing speeds just 2-3 kts below the true wind. The boat had twin rudders, of course, but no bow thruster, I was a bit worried when the base manager told me about that. But it turns out, the boat was actually quite easy to maneuver in the marina, if you need to make a tight turn, forward or reverse, simply put the engine into neutral, the boat turns immediately. Just make sure to have plenty of speed. Next year, it's gonna be a Pogo 44, can't wait.
Agreed, I made an embarrassing and expensive maneuvering mistake in a Jeanneau 40ish with twin rudders and no bow thruster. I did not understand how flow over the rudder and engine thrust impacted how she turned. I believe with more knowledge and practice I would have avoided that catamaran! But as you say, she sailed beautifully upwind, admittedly with a bit of slapping in waves.
It would be safe to say, designers of old drew a seaworthy hull and then worked out the interior, nowadays the interior is drawn to attract the wives at the boat shows and the hull is drawn around it. Trends of today include low ballast ratios, excessive beam and freeboard, skimpy attachment of keels, and vulnerable rudders to name a few. The quest for speed and space has sacrificed the vessel being seaworthy in tough conditions.
100 % agree. Though it's something that has been happening for decades : most cruising boats produced by the volume manufacturers merely suffice for the circumstances of those who own/charter them - the vast majority. But they are in no way fit for extended ocean cruising in all weather/sea conditions which, as I interpret it, is the subject matter of this channel.
As a racer it boggles my mind the number of cruisers who avoid going anywhere close to the wind at almost all costs…. I’d say that would SEVERELY impact any usefulness of a sailboat. While the wide flat boats are beautiful at the dock, if I want a floating cottage….. I’ll go power boat.
My wife circumnavigated the southern ocean ona Wylie 39’ performance cruiser in 8 months and it wasn’t what most people think is a blue water boat. Spade rudder, fin keel tall rig etc. But, she and her partner knew wtf they were doing and things went reasonably well.
I have been sailing my fat bottom Beneteau Oceanis 35.1 for six years. I find going upwind not an issue. Some slamming, but nothing to shake my teeth out. Maneuvering in a marina is not an issue either. Once the boat is moving at 0.5 kts I have control, in forward or reverse. Need to stop quick? Big burst of throttle. Several times people on a dock I was approaching asked if I had a bow thruster and they were surprised when I told them "No."
You are mistaken about these boats upwind performance. When healing 15-20 degrees the hull is lifted out providing immense stability while the wet hul is now narrow and cutting through. I sail a Pogo 12.50 which is an extreme version of this design. 9-11 knots upwind and planning is not unusual. No drama or hammering into swells. You just go a little less high into the wind but WMG is unmatched and the more wind the better. Stearing in harbours with the twin rudder is a bit of a challenge. These type of boats are easier to stear in reverse if they don't have bow thruster. However, we should be happy to see production cruisers finally offering boats that are both comfortable, spacious and fast. Try going upwind in an older Beneteau or Bavaria. Their WMG upwind is only half of modern boats and they are not comfortable at all in swells..
Complaining about a performance cruiser doing some pounding upwind is like complaining that porsche does not handle the ruff roads very well and then suggesting a mini van as a replacement.
I've got a UFO 34, she's old and cramped but if it can survive the 1998 Sydney to Hobart AND the 1979 Fastnet, i couldn't care less, its nice knowing she will carry me through the heavy weather each and every time.
@@jessiebrader2926 Sloop. It is a German Frers design. It rides very well. Most of my ocean crossing has been on race boats, so I really appreciate and understand the difference.
Another big problem is to moore, park the boat! Especially in the Mediterranean boats are parked with the transom, stern parked first. As space is limited it is very difficult to get into into that narrow space the boat has to be parked.
I went with a more moderate boat , lots of room for the aft cabin and still sails well . Lower windage , dryer to sail . And she has a lifting keel - LOVE that . Built like a tank , hull to deck joint , bulk heads all fully glassed , and even the cabinets are tabbed in . The weight all down low and in the center . My biggest concern with new production boats is they are not built to last or be repaired . They are built to look great at the dock and be comfortable on anchor , even to be fast on a reach but certainly not to last .
@orrinkahm I agree 100%, this is the best/most informative sailing channel. And Tim doesn’t waste our time with bikini nonsense. (If that’s what one wants, there are plenty of other sites filling that void.)
From a Chris Craft cruiser to a Catalina 28. I'm glad Catalina (what I consider to be a mid quality boat) is keeping the hull design a bit traditional. Compared to Cruisers sailboat interior space is sparse so more room is needed. But not at the cost of sailing upwind.
I was crew on a trip to Bermuda. Slept in the v-birth. I was literally lifted into the air and slammed down every 15 seconds. It's a tough slog through the Gulf Stream; but, I think it's worse with these wide boats.
Went upwind on pogo 36 for two days at 25-30 kn; yeah, it slams the waves, had fun using head. It is transat heritage. Double digit downwind comes with a price tag. Worth it. Twin rudder is ok tho, no bow truster, and it is not needed, going in revers in marina anyway 99% of time.
Thank you, IMHO wide rear ends do not only slam into waves up- wind, they also suck down-wind, if the swell is slightly offset from the course. The stern slides down the wave, the boat yaws heavily and make steering very difficult,. You need to change course or rig a preventer in order to avoid accidental gybes.
I feel better now. I always thought my pontoon boat was supper slow. It's just as fast as the older sailboats. It's too bad these new sailboats were so expensive. I would love to own one. Thanks for sharing.
I used to think the same as you till I started ocean racing on light flat hulls. To my surprise they slammed almost nothing even in confused seas and the bow threw off much less spray than V bows. I found these wide lighweight crafts much more comfortable than 70's style hulls. Don't forget the long overhangs on the old boats creating a terrible pitching motion and excessive roll and pitch due to narrow hulls and heavy masts. Finally in terms of safety, modern fast boats go upwind up to 50% faster and downwind up to 100% faster getting you to port earlier. They zig-zagg less too because their double rudders work like a surfboard's fins or the feathers of an arrow. They all have deep bulbed keels to turn you over in seconds. What you are comparing are top heavy, modern cruisers with flat bottoms pretending to sail well but focusing mainly on interior space but are an abomination out in the water. The best sailboats are light, fast and carry only the essential loads. Try cruising on one and you'll have a blast.
What is an "overhang? What is a "deep bulbed keel"? What is "turn you over"? Could you give me an example of a boat with a "light flat hull? Thank you very much.
@@flower2289 By "overhangs" I mean when the bow or stern extend foward or aft of the waterline, unlike modern designs that have a vertical bow and the stern ends where the waterline ends. These foward and aft overhangs have a lot of weight anf create a forward/aft pendulum when hitting waves. "Deep bulbed" means a deep draft with a bulb on the end creating a center of mass of the keel down close to the bulb. Add to this a low weight hull with basic arrangements and you have a very stable boat, one of the major factors in safety. In older boats this was accomplished by lead ballast with better results in long keels where the lead is spread along the bottom of the long keel, concentrating the weight as low as possible. By "turn over" I meant when a boat is laid flat 90 degrees or even further, due to wind of waves, a low centre-of-gravity boat will turn back to vertical fairly fast, minimising water intake. Even in the 90's there were flattish bottomed boats such as the Jod 35. It's a much drier and faster boat than most cruising boats of the time. I've beat against 27knt winds, 3mt waves, at a constant 6.5knt and surfed down 5mt waves at 14knt with this very unimpressive looking boat. I crossed the Atlantic once on a 70's style boat and I basically either zig-zagged down wind or buried the boat underwater upwind. The Jod keeps a straight line downwind and goes over the water upwind, no slamming, much more pleasant. Today most Farr designs, some X-yachts, some Jenneau as long as they're designed with ocean racing as a priority instead of interior accommodation. I'd much rather cruise on these boats than on a floating caravan filled with comfort gadgets.
Catalina 30 MKII owner here. I thought I had already subscribed your channel already since your content consistently serves up to me. Anyway, just subscribed. Thank you for making these content and not cluttering them with music. I've always admired how roomy the new boats are, but I wouldn't want to own a boat where the floor is glued to the hull. Any grounding, or even just bad weight distribution during a haul out may easily cause the glue to fail.
These newer designs have too much wetted surface for good light air performance but the big problem for blue water sailing is stability. The wide shallow hulls combined with shoal draft keels make for very poor range of positive stability.
My marina was built for boats built in the 80s and 90s. The max beam of newer boats is much wider than older boats. This really limited my choices. My partners and I ended up with a 2023 Hanse 388 - it fits nicely in our slip. It has twin helms, but only one rudder and the boat sails well on all points of sail. No need for a bow thruster while maneuvering in the harbor.
Hello. You are so correct on your comments, I had a beneteau 25.7 first . Bought it new (dealership disaster) it wouldn't steer until it had water passing over the rudders, that took two boat lengths forward or reverse, slammed directly into waves, ( you could have broken the boat easily in two,) but it could go downwind with the lifting keel up, it also was a disaster until I bolted it down properly, great yanmar though!
Some lifting keels are just calculated for the trailer, or for running aground. You must bolt them down while sauling. THOSE keels are not safe to lift while sailing. You got to check that. Seriously, watch out!
I don't understand your explanation of why the boat you tested had a tendency to ride the wave at the bow. My understanding is a straight bow would tend to cut more into the wave and a raked bow would increase buoyancy a lot as you hit a wave. It would more likely be caused by the bow being more beamy and have little to do with the beam being carried aft
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I agree, this summer I was on V-shaped Beneteau 38.1. It was nice on a flat sea but when swell picked up, it wasn't comfortable at all to sail upwind. Such a difference to Bavaria 46, which was behaving much better in rough seas.
Ok , moving slowly forward with twin rudders into a marina berth can be challenging, reversing in , no problems. Bow thrusters are just as reliable as anchor winches . Most cruising is planned as Downwind ...! Cruisers spend 90+% at anchor or stationary , so getting to anchor or port in possibly half the time makes sense plus the safety of being exposed to the weather at sea is reduced .
I have a sort of modern boat with a wide stern and it goes upwind at the same speed as the older boats, but as soon as the AWA increases to 40 degrees and more it is a lot faster than the others.
Coastal cruisers I call em, great for shorter trips not too far from land and with wonderful accommodations. However...avoid large beam seas, as the wave goes under the boat with a flat bottom the boat can roll side to side at extreme speed. Enough to make the gimble on the stove unable to keep up and be extremely difficult to stand up. Fun to sail but not ocean going, a handful in large beam seas. They look good though!
Hi I like your comments I am presently in block island sailing to Martha’s Vineyard on my 40.1 One comment i can say with the new boats you don’t care as much. On currents I sail at 9 nots so loosing 2 nots does not effect my d’édition to sail somewhere And yea i would not buy this boat without a bow thruster On motor i go 7.6 so i prefer the new hulls
A point to note, wide transom sail boats will tend to change the attitude of the keel when heeled (stern up nose down); this tends to run the boat leeward thus negatively impacting windward performance. You need to stack a lot of rail-meat aft and windward to counter this.
Circumnavigated twice, 90% of the time downwind or broad reach. I would sacrifice upwind capability for significantly improved comfort and speed on downwind courses. Cruising is about taking your time, and if the weather is not what you want it to be, you could always wait a couple of days and depart when it's not blowing 30 knots on the nose.
We chartered a Bavaria C42 a few months ago and were thoroughly impressed by its sailing performance, including pointing ability. And we also enjoyed the very wide cockpit and interior. But we did not sail in heavy seas so can't comment on comfort at sea.
These flat big rear boats are aimed at the rental market IMO so they are big spaces on the water. I prefer my 36 foot single rudder sailboat any day of the week, and don’t get me started on the light wood ikea interiors compared to older darker mahogany wood boats. My boat is solid, not creaky when walking inside like some of the modern boats.
another MAJOR problem: broad-stern sailboats are not good at long distance cruising and not fit for bluewater sailing. They are volunerable to waves coming from astern. Benateau doesn't produces boats but hotel rooms. their average sailing time is half a hour, from the marina to a near anchorage for partying.
Love the channel and subscribed years ago even though I don’t have a boat. Also subscribed to your Charlie the Truck and HistorSea channels as knowledge is wonderful and I have been a lifelong learner. Back in the 1970’s (1973 and into the 1080’s) I built a Cherolet van and later a Dodge Maxivan into home camper vans with a bed, ice box, clothing boxes that slid under the bed, Coleman 3-burner gas stove, Curtains, etc. My wife, daughter and I camped all over California and Mexico for over 13, 14 years, so am loving our buildout of the box truck which is going to be more sophisticated than mine, but then there weren’t man, if any companies doing van buildouts. Keep up the great work.😊
Congratulations Tim! I knew you were going to make it. So exciting to watch you grow. I will be preparing for a direct hit. Batten Down the Hatches! Here we go again! Happy Sailing ⛵
Great Episode btw, I was curious if you'd do an episode on something I am focused on which is food logistics on a sailboat. Yes, we can all do pasta/ric and canned food. But for those of us who'd like to learn more about potential food tricks on a sail boat. Specifics of tricks I've learned, ginger beer, farm eggs, condensed milk > powdered milk, hanging tomato's and microgreens, fish preservation. Basically tricks to add more fresh variety to your menu so you aren't eating out of a can or packs of ramen.
I wouldn't really call them dock queens, but rather designed for coastal cruising charter markets. Lots of accommodations and room to party. As a number of comments pointed out, if you let the boat heel up enough it can cut through the waves better, However not all your passengers may like heeling that much, which leads to the pounding Tim described. My bigger issue with this design is the handling in a quartering sea. That transom can really get tossed around. Thanks, but ill stick with my heavy, narrow Cal.
Something to think about, some smaller marinas... will charge you twice the docking fee for wide boats. Oh you are wider then 12 feet on a 40 foot hull. So you are going to take up 2 slips. And that gets expensive fast
I came up with five hull plan forms: square ended box ( SEB), Double Pointed Box (DPB), Single Pointed Box (SPB), Double Arrow Point (DAP), and Single Arrow Point (SAP). These trending boats are SAPs. I have attempted to design one. I found an big issue is that when the boat heels, the bow pitches down and the stern pitches up. One consequence of this is that the rudder tends to roll right out of the water. This is probably why these designs have twin rudders. As one rolls out, the other goes deeper and becomes more effective. But these twin, spade rudders seem very vulnerable to rudder strikes. So, I thought of putting a sturdy skeg in front of each. But that won't work because, when heeled, the boat is no longer sailing parallel to it's center line. Now the lift provided by the leeward skeg is lifting the stern upwind and thereby causing the boat to turn down wind. So, twin, spade rudders it has to be. If I were refitting a retired one of these, I would redesign the spade rudders to be massively strong. I wouldn't think twice about making the rudder shaft 4 to 6 inches in diameter. This would make the foils on these rudders that much thicker. And that would probably mean slower speeds. But I think the added security of being able to withstand a substantial rudder strikes would be worth it.
The limiting factor for speed is sail area. To obtain more sail area causes greater heeling-moment. To counteract the healing moment, a wider hull accomplishes this easily. With a wider hull, the center rudder lifts out of the water. A twin-rudder solves this. As to the prop-wash, installing twin engines of half the horsepower would add redundancy, maneuverability, etc. This is the next logical move. As to speed, I think hydrofoil design will improve to the point this will be the method of choice for exceeding hull speed and improving comfort in moderate chop. Retractable wings will allow a dual-purpose design for heavy seas and high speed depending on conditions.
Jeanneau Sunrise 34... An excellent compromise and probably the last decent boat model built by Jeanneau before they started making charter boats... just lift the floor boards and you'll see... and it also has a half skeg. Yes my old S&S IW31 was true blood but as liveaboard comfort, there is no comparison and this really makes a difference. Congratulations for the first 100K subscribers!
took my first and new to me old boat out a couple weeks ago single handed for 3 days and nights cruising a local lake... no real issues... my outboard could use a tune
Twin rudders can come in very handy - especially when sailing across the ocean. Every year a few yachts are abandoned at sea because they lose a rudder and cannot be steered - this is especially so when the yacht has only a spade rudder with no protective skeg. Expensive! Without the long keel of traditional designs they are too skittish to keep on course by balancing the sails. Having two rudders reduces the chance that steering will be lost. That said - for ocean sailing a traditional deep V keel which provides sea-kindliness and protects the rudder (a full keel or keel hung rudder) is ideal for comfort and safety. Excellent commentary regarding the design of these big dinghies, however.
After 15 yrs motor boat thanks to mi daughter ex rs feva and non 29er i started looking for a saio boat . I found an abandoned Franchini Yachts 41L Starkel Hull , skeg rudder and since 2022 i altostrati Fiat and tris summer we all sailed 4 FANTASTIC!!,
I used to race on a Dufour 335 and I have to say, my experience is pretty much the opposite of what you described. I found that the vertical line of the bow did more slicing through waves where sailing upwind in a C&C 30, with its slanted bow, lead to pounding... Not sure how to square this circle. The drawback I've hard is more significant for wide transomed sailboats is that the wetted surface area is very large, so sailing down with with all that wetted surface area dragging leads to poorer performance down wind. The wide transom leads to a stronger righting moment, so better performance upwind, especially if you can get enough of a heel on to pull a bunch of that wetted surface area out of the water.
Thanks Tim. Great, very balanced, analysis. I would add that the chined hull on the Beneteau mitigates a good chunk of the heeling - which can be a plus or a minus, depending on your love of heeling. These boats are comfort cruisers with 6’5” headroom, spacious cabins. I only go in reverse in marinas with my 38.1. I steer with the bow thruster. Seven years and no thruster breakdown yet, but call me lucky. There is zero prop steer on these twin rudder boats, as you noted. Congrats on 102k!
An upwind sail passage is a universally loathed thing - whether conducted in a large catamaran, a 55ft trailer, or in a sailboat (fat or skinny bottomed makes no difference). Most captains refuse to put up with a tacking solution and will send family members off on a plane or road trip that avoids these passage legs so that the captain can motor through the upwind leg in as fast and (un)comfortable way as possible. Point is, 1. You will be sailing with the wind more than not. 2. You will be at a mooring or dock more often than not. 3. a modern, newer, wide-body boat is going to have fewer systems hovering close to their end of life, and finally 4) a wide body boat is less likely to be rolling violently (+-45 degrees) all night long while you are trying to sleep. An ideal solution (I think) is a 45+ft aluminum hull (mono or cat) with retractable keel(s), wide body, and beachable. This will give you incredible? downwind speed and safety. This year is a pivot year for aluminum sailboats as new laser cutting and laser welding systems make aluminum fabrication easier and quicker than using the past methods of years gone by. The laser-welded aluminum boats can also promise exoskeleton construction methods (with 10mm - 12 mm) plate outer shells that do away with the need for bulkheads and through holes (aluminum hulls support through holes that are pipes extending above the waterline. These boats are basically icebreakers. A generator and outboard electric motors & battery pack would eliminate ALL through holes and make them indestructible? as well.
There’s an interesting truism emerged over the past decade or two that it’s very easy to find someone who has owned one aluminium boat but very difficult to find anyone who has owned more than one.
I find it unusual to sail up wind at 40 degrees or so except when racing. I've sailed offshore and never noticed the slamming of the bow being excessive. There are lots of factors that effect this like rig weight aloft, weight in bow, etc. Most boats like this have a U shaped bottom Infront of the keel. It only flattens out behind the keel.
Thank you for your timely analysis as only the other day watching a review of a sailing yacht I wondered with my wife why yachts seemed to be getting so broad in the beam and it’s implications.
Here's to your achievement of 100K subscribers from someone that remembers when you hit 10K!. I love hearing the old "Lady K Theme Song" on today's video. It brings back a lot of fond memories of your videos when you departed Canada for the Bahamas. Back them I thought the "K" in Lady K stood for Kandice.
You should check out the RM 1180. Both are designed by Marc Lombard and therefore share a lot of similarities. The RM is a better build, performance oriented version of the Beneteau. On those boats you don’t sleep in the v-berth when reaching, you stay in the settee berth with the leecloth up. We often do 8.5-9kn+ in 15kn wind with our RM 1180 (39ft), and we can get as close as 30 degree from the wind. There’s a boat for everyone, it depends on the kind of sailing you want to do.
The split rudders do require you to go a bit faster to maintain stearage. My Jeanneau 349 loves to go to windward. It does heel a bit when doing it, but I have reached double digets in SF bay.
A few other issues with the twin rudders that are essential for these boats. The extra complexity of the linkages means there's more to go wrong, especially if the boat is poorly maintained. Not saying they will go wrong, just that the chances of failure increase. Then they're excellent at picking up crab pot lines. My sailing area is littered with the things but unless you're really unlucky the line's often diverted, but rudders sticking out either side look ideal if you want a crab supper. The final issue may not be highly likely but the effects can be fatal. Falling over the side is bad enough but at speed the boat will likely be heeled over with the rudder scything along. For anyone in its way, hypothermia is likely to be the least of their worries.....
I once chartered Jeanneau 519 and sailed upwind from Grenada to St. Vincent in 2 m seas. The bashing felt like the boat was going to implode. My ancient Alberg 30 is a lot more comfortable in the square waves of Lake Ontario. Granted it’s 1/10th of living space. Boat boats are great. Given the chance to go offshore, I’ll take the Alberg. Got really turned off by the idea of production boat in big seas.
These boats are good on most points of sail in flat water, but in bigger seas you pay the price. With all of that buoyancy aft, it pushes the bow down so that it digs in when going upwind. Along with the lighter weight of many of these boats, you will be going along and hit a good wave and the boat will almost stop completely. The worst though can be going downwind in good sized seas. With that flat bottom, huge a$$, and narrow high aspect keels, these boats have very little directional stability, they will spin around their keel with ease. Each wave picks up the stern and the boat wants to turn side on to the wave. I've been on a newer Beneteau going down the CA coast in 10-15ft seas and the autopilot couldn't really handle this, so we had to hand steer for the worst of it. Twin rudders help this some, but introduce other issues. But, manufacturers and selling boats for how 80-90% of people use them which is sailing in protected water with decent weather and sitting at the dock having drinks. They do those things pretty well, but they would not be my choice for real ocean sailing.
I disagree. I’ve been in pretty gnarly conditions and I’ve witnessed none of this bow down attitude. We carried a lot of volume in the bow and you would need 25+ knots tws just to get water on the deck. I found it was a joy to sail in rough conditions.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that in most modern, wide-transom boats, there's not much in the huge cockpit to hold onto. Send a crewmember to trim the jib, and there's a good chance they'll grab one of the wheels to steady themselves on the way "downhill".
2020 Beneteau 62 (with 18' beam) owner here Twin helms-- zero prob handling in marina. No pounding upwind, Wide and lots of space. We have not encountered ANY of the concerns you mentioned... but perhaps our size boat is not what you were talking about. In fact I find it's worst quality is light down wind sailing (broad reach and running downwind).
I have a Jenneau 49ds, it does pound sailing into the wind and it's not comfortable when you have to do it 5 days straight. But it is fast and super comfortable when I'm at anchor, at a marina or not sailing upwind. Which, let's be honest is 99% of the time. I'll put up with the downside.
As we know, very boat is a compromise, it depends what you spend most of the time doing in it. If you spend most of your time crossing oceans by all means buy a heavy narrow hulled boat that will acheive decent speeds in 18 - 25 knots of wind but that won't be much fun for someone who wants to do fun coastal or vacation cruising at high speed in comfort it's tools for the job. Pick your tool.
I have a custom flat bottomed very pointy wide arsed alu sloop with a big keel and single protected rudder doing double digits. I suppose I'm the only one pointing 10 degrees or even less? No need so far for a bow-thruster. The trade-off is draft. At 2.8 m it means I can"t get in (to trouble) too close to shore. It is comfortable in all conditions even surfing over head on swell. The king sized bed is a real winner. I just spent a few days at anchor in 40+ knots and it was fine even if a little swingy during the cyclonic system's passing.
You are completely wrong about modern boats not sailing well to windward. Also if you have trouble docking one then maybe it's you and your lack of skills, not the boat.
As a serious ocean sailor I love encapsulated long keel sail boats. Few years ago I bought a fun boat. A Beneteau 30 JK deep bolt on bulbous keel, two offset angles rudders. Amazing boat to sail. I kept her in Sardinia for manly coastal sailing with passages to Sicily and Tunsia. Definitely not an ocean passage maker like my Nicholson 32 and my latest Vancouver 32. I appreciate its horses for courses! But when it comes down to serious offshore sailing I would never consider these modern open cockpit wide hulled sailing boats! Never. For coastal summer Mediterranean passages okay. But never ever for ocean sailing in my humble opinion!
The French boats often have trickle down design cues from the Vendee Globe boats. They scream downwind but not so much fun upwind. I'm sure you'll pass that 100k crest soon!
Well, looks like very nice boats to me. Some of us just sail in the summer, due to lack of free time, and when we do, we tend to choose the best conditions available (i sail in the mediterranean). The value of that extra space is well worth the sacrifice. For example, if u went for a family trip to Menorca, you would absolutely love that boat, while the narrower one feels "cramped"...
This style started with the Volvo round the world races - wide sterns and twin rudders were meant to maximize downwind speed for that race. For some reasons cruising designs tend to follow racing designs. Then wives started noticing that the style made for a monohull with roomaran interior characteristics.
Easy on the kayak criticism :) I can spin my 18' Fiberglass Stellar sea kayak on a dime. I'm a sea-kayaker turned sailor. Happy to offer some pointers on how to turn your kayak. Love your channel!
I bought my boat 16 years ago and it has a wide stern and twin rudders. The strange thing is that I have never had a problem with steering control in port, on the contrary it steers better with two rudders vs boats with single rudders even at extremely low speed. Another weird thing is, I've never had technical issues with the bow thruster in 16 years, but maybe that's because I don't need to use it that often. Finally, believe it or not, we sail faster and with at least the same wind angle compared to single rudder boats. I would also like to point out that a big advantage of twin rudders is that the autopilot is able to steer in strong winds and heeling because the rudder control is outstanding.
The boat is an Elan 450
Sounds good. I sold my boat, but I've considered building in two rudders myself. For the old one was old, and if you go to sea, you do not want a rudder problem. Most owners of such boats have checked and reinforced the construction. The owners who race, they got large genakers, the rudder takes huge forces. Those people know what's inportant. The best accident is a bent stainless steel shaft. Rudder pointing a bit off. Oops. If it breaks off, you have an ugly hole under water.
But the real reason, one rudder gets in trouble when the boat heels a lot. I don't want that. Two rudders are never dead vertical, there is an angle for a reason.
And my last thing you can think about. We are stuck to the ship designs of the last few decades. And most sailing boats are based on fishing boats. How old depends, a lot is end 19th century. Those ships are proven, it was survival of the fittest boat shape. And today, when you buy such a race boat based yacht, you also get all the disadvantages. We KNOW that, I guess most people IGNORE such designs. Nice, but not for me. Thank God my budget is tiny. I just peddle a canoe and I can tell you, that is good. Good luck with those super yachts.
If you own a boat and get out sailing, why on earth would you be watching this moron. He targets idiots with his verbal diarrhoea and false information.
I've been a subscriber for a year. Thanks for not wearing a bikini!!!
I have had a Beneteau 323 for 18 seasons. It is the shoal draft model with a lifting keel and twin rudders. I have never encountered the problems you describe in maneuvering in the marina. I find that it maneuvers slightly differently from a single rudder, but has definite motion to port in reverse and I find it pretty easy to maneuver, even in tight quarters and even in wind or current.
I own a Beneteau Oceanis 38. I have no issues in maneovering in a marina at slow speed. The lack of prop walk is a real benefit. The two rudders make for excellent moving forward or astern. Secondly, windward performance is excellent. Just 15-20 degrees off of the wind, in 15 knots, I get 8-10kts boat speed with no ‘slamming’ of the hull even in very choppy seas. The hard chine from far forward all the way to the helm prevents a lot of heeling and the twin rudders provide excellent steering under such conditions. Perhaps you had one bad experience or were pushing the boat too hard? I find I less sail to get the best performance…. I have kept up with a Beneteau 46 that had all their sails out (Gen + Main) when I was reefed in with same sail plan to about 2/3rds sail. The 46 was heeled over too much and I was not. We videoed each other and compared notes after. It was clear to both of us that reducing sail not only made for a more comfortable sail, but also yielded same performance.
I have a Jeanneau 39i which is quite beamy, although not as extreme as the latest crop of pie shaped boats, it is still pretty wide. We absolutely love it, and we sail upwind alot. I think people who haven't sailed these modern hull designs tend to overstate the tendency to pound to weather. Our boat is quite fast and comfortable upwind, and it is very well balanced. For coastal cruising I will take a beamy modern boat over a skinny old design all day!
I own a narrow boat, and race on a wide boat. In heavy weather big waves both boats regularly slam in the waves in the most frightening way, but the wide boat is still quite a lot dryer in the cockpit. What I like more in the narrow boat is the safety of the cockpit, on a wide boat it is always a long way down from the rail. But all boats have their perks.
I've sailed a 36i and loved it. Glad to hear you're happy with the 39i. The 39i is on my short list of boats I'd like to own one day!
As a very happy Catalina 445 owner, I'd say you hit the nail on the head! Our Catalina sails well on all points of sail, doesn't pound in a seaway with no creaking down below, and is comfortable at anchor. My wife and I are in our late sixties, and find this boat easy to handle in the ocean as well as in tight marinas. She's well built with over sized deck hardware, points well, and sails 5-6 knots in 8-9 knots of breeze. For a fairly heavy cruiser, that's darn good! By comparison, I've raced on a Beneteau Oceanis 45 and crewed on the new Jeanneau 440. I found that neither boat points well... a full 10-15 degrees lower... and both are slow in light air. Also, the swept back spreaders make it impossible to sail dead down wind. While that wide transom helps in heavy air, it's a hindrance in light air, creating a lot of drag. And let's face it, most of us are sailing with our wives and family and most days avoid anything more than 20 knots of wind. So these boats offer very limited sailing performance. Big beamy boats make great "dockominiums", but are disappointing under sail. That's just a fact that doesn't seem to make it into the cruising magazines. Lastly, we're still in love with the interior of out boat. It's beautiful and comfortable with a spacious main salon. I will say that the sleeping accommodations are not as spacious in our 445, but they are more than adequate. The european manufacturers are following IKEA construction methods that (in my opinion) will not stand the test of time. My wife and I went to the Newport Boat Show this year and came away knowing we purchased the right boat 5 years ago. We wouldn't trade her for anything! Thank you Catalina for building a great boat and thank you Practical Sailor shining a light!
Thank you for such an informative comment from real owner. Good luck!
your catalina does not do 5/6 in 8/9.
@@dawntreader7079I know it’s hard to believe but yes it does. We replaced the 3 blade with a Gori folding prop and that made a big difference.
What a great comment. Well thought out and in depth. BUT, I too find that boat speed in that wind speed a bit unbelievable, especially for a cruising / live aboard yacht.
I agree with the points you make, though I think we need to be honest and clear about the market research that the volume manufacturers put into the design of these boats. They are very well packaged for their intended purpose. They are second/weekend homes, ideal for entertaining and sun lounging in the med. Typically they will be used at weekends and for a month in the summer - just walk through a typical marina on a windy Wednesday morning and see how many are out there! The charter/flotilla customers will love the space and multiple large cabins and heads. They will give a good turn of speed for primarily day sailing between marinas and sheltered anchorages. They will happily cope with a longer two or three day crossing and occasional overnight passage in good (summer) weather. Yes, they will slam in a blow or rough seas, but these boats won’t be out then and if they get caught out, the double figure cruising speed under engine means it will be a quick dart into shelter.
Unreliable bow thrusters? Tired fittings and interiors? Very possibly, but those issues are either under warranty or will become an increasing problem for the second/third owner. Long after the new boat purchaser has moved on to the updated model.
The volume manufacturers know their customers needs and the price point they want to pay for the features.
Now, if you were looking for a live aboard boat to circle the world in comfort and safety in any weather you would not be in this market segment. Yes, I know people do and good luck and love to them! There are manufacturers out there who will very happily meet your needs of those who want a boat with long legs and they charge corresponding price tags. We can’t complain that an average midrange family car does not have the features, refinements, and practicality of a high spec fully kitted out off roader. Why would we think we could with boats.
A well said and balanced comment. Manufacturers are giving customers what they want. As a rule of thumb, it was once calculated that most recreational boats spend at least 90% of their lives alongside a marina or other sheltered moorings. Having worked in the yacht marina and offshore yacht building arena (circa 1970s, 1980s and 1990s) I've seen the market change to reflect consumer aspirations.
@@wills681 I think it is only half the truth to say that manufacturers build what customers want. Just with cars that nowadays almost all claim to be a sports car and an offroader at the same time, that demand has mostly been manufactured. If asked honestly, very few people would say that they want a boat that turns the V-birth into a slammy rollercoaster and going upwind requires motoring for acceptable comfort. But of course, if you ask people about whether they want space or a boat that planes downwind...
And of course, there is all the maintenance issues that will be passed down to the second owner who never gets a real say in what is produced for the market
As an owner of one of those modern hull shapes (Jeanneau SO 440) I can tell you that they absolutely point very well. I have gone a steady 8.5 knots at 30 degrees to the apparent wind for long comfortable passages. They will slam if motored directly into the wind, but if you fall off and sail (they are sailboats) she will heel to the chine and it cuts through the water like a v hull on a motor boat and that twin rudder is now straight down and completely dug in. You are not going to round up. The reason many of these boats don't point well is not because of hull shape, but because owners choose a shoal draft keel, and in-mast furling on a 40 ft boat. Pointing well relies on good sails, sheeted in at the correct angle, and draft. You would help people a lot more by telling them to go with the standard keel and traditional mainsail. Those are far worse modern trends.
But in-mast furling is amazing, particularly if you're short-handed. (Eg single/couple on a
@@alkaholic4848 glad you like in mast or in boom furling. Personally I KISS and slab reefing to a sailor who practices reefing and has lazy jacks it takes no longer to raise and set a
Main sail or reef down then it takes most roller reefing mains. Now my boat is MUCH smaller then many well healed sailors who can afford a new 40 ft boat but… I don’t even have roller furling on my head sails. I have slab reefed head sails (jib and staysail) and hank on sails. I change sails based on conditions I reef well before needed and the few times I was caught by a squall and it wind went from 7pm its to 20knit gusts in 3 min. (It really didn’t I was just unfamiliar with local weather conditions at that time and made the mistake of thinking oh that squall will miss us) but when it hit my preparations and ability to douse my head sail and reef my main in seconds not minutes I depowerd and not only saved my boat but never even lost a head sail or ever felt out of control. I have seen roller furling both head sails and roller reefed mains Stuck because the load on the sail was more then the roller reefing system could handle and the boat broached and or head sails were ripped to shreds because the sailor relied on the roller furling hardly ever went forward or even ventured out of the cockpit normally so they were big repaired to go forward to unjam a furler that wouldn’t allow them to reef down. They were not even used up going as far as the mast and because of this their boat didn’t have proper safety lines and harnesses to make going forward to reduce sail safely. So ya roller furling is great Ina nice calm day sail when they reef as they should but I have seen far too many boats return with a tattered Genoa that was caught out or jammed. Seen furling lines chafe and snap and all ghe sail roll out while on passage again now a big 150 Genoa is out in 15-20 knots and the skipper is now faces with going forward to try and get it down but that are not used to leaving the cockpit even on a nice weather the thought of going forward in a blow and swell scares the shit out of them as it’s not something the are used to doing safely. Other people have actually died when in mast furling failed and a boom preventer snapped and the boom struck the crew members and killed them huge sail Ina large boat with heavy in boom furler swinging free with a loose main sheet was a recipe for disaster
So right!! In-mast furling and the resulting sailplan is the reason for bad upwind performance...
@@alkaholic4848 that is fine if that works for you. All I am saying is don’t blame hull design for a lack of upwind performance.
I’m not even an amateur sailor, sailing is just something I’ve enjoyed when I gotten to spend some time under sail. I have no idea who is right but major points for having a civil conversation with each person having what seems like a reasonable position.
I 've just returned from a one week cruise on a Solaris 40 in the Cyclades. This boat is designed just the way you described, a near perfect triangle. But man, this beast was the best cruiser I've ever sailed! Reaching with a Gennaker at 25kts true wind was like driving a Ferrari, simply unbelievable. Going upwind was equally impressive, 14 kts true and 9 kts speed on the log, even at sub 10kts wind we were seeing speeds just 2-3 kts below the true wind.
The boat had twin rudders, of course, but no bow thruster, I was a bit worried when the base manager told me about that. But it turns out, the boat was actually quite easy to maneuver in the marina, if you need to make a tight turn, forward or reverse, simply put the engine into neutral, the boat turns immediately. Just make sure to have plenty of speed.
Next year, it's gonna be a Pogo 44, can't wait.
Agreed, I made an embarrassing and expensive maneuvering mistake in a Jeanneau 40ish with twin rudders and no bow thruster. I did not understand how flow over the rudder and engine thrust impacted how she turned. I believe with more knowledge and practice I would have avoided that catamaran! But as you say, she sailed beautifully upwind, admittedly with a bit of slapping in waves.
It would be safe to say, designers of old drew a seaworthy hull and then worked out the interior, nowadays the interior is drawn to attract the wives at the boat shows and the hull is drawn around it. Trends of today include low ballast ratios, excessive beam and freeboard, skimpy attachment of keels, and vulnerable rudders to name a few. The quest for speed and space has sacrificed the vessel being seaworthy in tough conditions.
100 % agree. Though it's something that has been happening for decades : most cruising boats produced by the volume manufacturers merely suffice for the circumstances of those who own/charter them - the vast majority.
But they are in no way fit for extended ocean cruising in all weather/sea conditions which, as I interpret it, is the subject matter of this channel.
As a racer it boggles my mind the number of cruisers who avoid going anywhere close to the wind at almost all costs…. I’d say that would SEVERELY impact any usefulness of a sailboat. While the wide flat boats are beautiful at the dock, if I want a floating cottage….. I’ll go power boat.
My wife circumnavigated the southern ocean ona Wylie 39’ performance cruiser in 8 months and it wasn’t what most people think is a blue water boat. Spade rudder, fin keel tall rig etc. But, she and her partner knew wtf they were doing and things went reasonably well.
The original Lady K theme song was a great touch!
Yeah, proper Hendrix vibes
🎵🎶Flat bottom boats they make the sailing world go’round🎶🎵
lol ♪ Fat bottom girls make the world go around ♪ good one Mark ~
@@maverickmyrtlebeach someone beat me to it
Hey I like it. Byyycycle Byyyycycle
Spellcheck : it's bicycle actually lol
I am so glad I found this here.
I have been sailing my fat bottom Beneteau Oceanis 35.1 for six years. I find going upwind not an issue. Some slamming, but nothing to shake my teeth out. Maneuvering in a marina is not an issue either. Once the boat is moving at 0.5 kts I have control, in forward or reverse. Need to stop quick? Big burst of throttle. Several times people on a dock I was approaching asked if I had a bow thruster and they were surprised when I told them "No."
My Beneteau Cycladed 43 slammed upwind. I beat the crap out of it doing the thorny path from Bahamas to Grenada. The floor grid came loose as well.
You are mistaken about these boats upwind performance. When healing 15-20 degrees the hull is lifted out providing immense stability while the wet hul is now narrow and cutting through. I sail a Pogo 12.50 which is an extreme version of this design. 9-11 knots upwind and planning is not unusual. No drama or hammering into swells. You just go a little less high into the wind but WMG is unmatched and the more wind the better. Stearing in harbours with the twin rudder is a bit of a challenge. These type of boats are easier to stear in reverse if they don't have bow thruster. However, we should be happy to see production cruisers finally offering boats that are both comfortable, spacious and fast. Try going upwind in an older Beneteau or Bavaria. Their WMG upwind is only half of modern boats and they are not comfortable at all in swells..
WMG?
@@PaulBKal VMG=velocity made good
@@PaulBKal VMG
@@briansrensen8204 yes I know what VMG is, I was asking what the WMG referred to meant
@@PaulBKal typo
Complaining about a performance cruiser doing some pounding upwind is like complaining that porsche does not handle the ruff roads very well and then suggesting a mini van as a replacement.
Gentlemen don't sail upwind.
@@siberianshuburshun688 Made me chuckle. 🙂
Almost at 100k! I've been watching your videos for almost a year and a half now, I cant wait to see you reach this milestone!
You and me both!
9 days later and we are at 102k. Hope your daughter really likes that play button ;)
really good to see you doing as well as you are. you deserve it Tim.
Thank you so much 😀
Most boats cruises in light winds along the shores. Looks like living rooms with a keel.
Yesterdays boats was designed for sailing by sailors.
One additional note on a wide transom is wave slap which can be very loud while trying to sleep.
I've got a UFO 34, she's old and cramped but if it can survive the 1998 Sydney to Hobart AND the 1979 Fastnet, i couldn't care less, its nice knowing she will carry me through the heavy weather each and every time.
Why is your narrow boat so safe in heavy weather? Thanks.
And what makes some catamarans so safe in weather although they are very wide? Thanks again, Wayne.
This is exactly why we love our 1988 Swan 59.
swan, one of the most beautiful boats.
@@georgeburns7251yes
Lovely boat, ketch or sloop? And don't they just cut through the water so well. Quality vessel
@@jessiebrader2926 Sloop. It is a German Frers design. It rides very well.
Most of my ocean crossing has been on race boats, so I really appreciate and understand the difference.
Another big problem is to moore, park the boat!
Especially in the Mediterranean boats are parked with the transom, stern parked first.
As space is limited it is very difficult to get into into that narrow space the boat has to be parked.
I am designing my catamaran from scratch, and your experiences greatly help!
I went with a more moderate boat , lots of room for the aft cabin and still sails well . Lower windage , dryer to sail . And she has a lifting keel - LOVE that . Built like a tank , hull to deck joint , bulk heads all fully glassed , and even the cabinets are tabbed in . The weight all down low and in the center .
My biggest concern with new production boats is they are not built to last or be repaired . They are built to look great at the dock and be comfortable on anchor , even to be fast on a reach but certainly not to last .
We like what we see, the way you are giving it to us, do not change anything at all! Congrats for the growth!
Thanks for watching!
Your work deserves every bit of 100k and more. It's always quality work. You're one of the best on TH-cam. Big thanks, man!
Appreciate that
@orrinkahm I agree 100%, this is the best/most informative sailing channel. And Tim doesn’t waste our time with bikini nonsense. (If that’s what one wants, there are plenty of other sites filling that void.)
From a Chris Craft cruiser to a Catalina 28. I'm glad Catalina (what I consider to be a mid quality boat) is keeping the hull design a bit traditional. Compared to Cruisers sailboat interior space is sparse so more room is needed. But not at the cost of sailing upwind.
Thumbs up !!! Thanks for your comments. From Italy
I was crew on a trip to Bermuda. Slept in the v-birth. I was literally lifted into the air and slammed down every 15 seconds. It's a tough slog through the Gulf Stream; but, I think it's worse with these wide boats.
Went upwind on pogo 36 for two days at 25-30 kn; yeah, it slams the waves, had fun using head. It is transat heritage. Double digit downwind comes with a price tag. Worth it.
Twin rudder is ok tho, no bow truster, and it is not needed, going in revers in marina anyway 99% of time.
Thank you, IMHO wide rear ends do not only slam into waves up- wind, they also suck down-wind, if the swell is slightly offset from the course. The stern slides down the wave, the boat yaws heavily and make steering very difficult,. You need to change course or rig a preventer in order to avoid accidental gybes.
You did it! The counter above says 100K! Congrats! Love the channel. As a novice sailor, this is the most informative sailing channel there is.
Awesome! Thank you!
Wow! in the San Pedro Channel, we frequently find ourselves sailing upwind outbound and return. This is vital information for socal sailors to know.
We just rented Oceanis 35.1, twin rudder no bow thruster. It was fun docking in 15+ knots winds
I feel better now. I always thought my pontoon boat was supper slow. It's just as fast as the older sailboats. It's too bad these new sailboats were so expensive. I would love to own one. Thanks for sharing.
I used to think the same as you till I started ocean racing on light flat hulls. To my surprise they slammed almost nothing even in confused seas and the bow threw off much less spray than V bows. I found these wide lighweight crafts much more comfortable than 70's style hulls. Don't forget the long overhangs on the old boats creating a terrible pitching motion and excessive roll and pitch due to narrow hulls and heavy masts. Finally in terms of safety, modern fast boats go upwind up to 50% faster and downwind up to 100% faster getting you to port earlier. They zig-zagg less too because their double rudders work like a surfboard's fins or the feathers of an arrow. They all have deep bulbed keels to turn you over in seconds. What you are comparing are top heavy, modern cruisers with flat bottoms pretending to sail well but focusing mainly on interior space but are an abomination out in the water. The best sailboats are light, fast and carry only the essential loads. Try cruising on one and you'll have a blast.
What is an "overhang? What is a "deep bulbed keel"? What is "turn you over"? Could you give me an example of a boat with a "light flat hull? Thank you very much.
@@flower2289
By "overhangs" I mean when the bow or stern extend foward or aft of the waterline, unlike modern designs that have a vertical bow and the stern ends where the waterline ends. These foward and aft overhangs have a lot of weight anf create a forward/aft pendulum when hitting waves. "Deep bulbed" means a deep draft with a bulb on the end creating a center of mass of the keel down close to the bulb. Add to this a low weight hull with basic arrangements and you have a very stable boat, one of the major factors in safety. In older boats this was accomplished by lead ballast with better results in long keels where the lead is spread along the bottom of the long keel, concentrating the weight as low as possible. By "turn over" I meant when a boat is laid flat 90 degrees or even further, due to wind of waves, a low centre-of-gravity boat will turn back to vertical fairly fast, minimising water intake. Even in the 90's there were flattish bottomed boats such as the Jod 35. It's a much drier and faster boat than most cruising boats of the time. I've beat against 27knt winds, 3mt waves, at a constant 6.5knt and surfed down 5mt waves at 14knt with this very unimpressive looking boat. I crossed the Atlantic once on a 70's style boat and I basically either zig-zagged down wind or buried the boat underwater upwind. The Jod keeps a straight line downwind and goes over the water upwind, no slamming, much more pleasant. Today most Farr designs, some X-yachts, some Jenneau as long as they're designed with ocean racing as a priority instead of interior accommodation. I'd much rather cruise on these boats than on a floating caravan filled with comfort gadgets.
Catalina 30 MKII owner here. I thought I had already subscribed your channel already since your content consistently serves up to me. Anyway, just subscribed. Thank you for making these content and not cluttering them with music. I've always admired how roomy the new boats are, but I wouldn't want to own a boat where the floor is glued to the hull. Any grounding, or even just bad weight distribution during a haul out may easily cause the glue to fail.
These newer designs have too much wetted surface for good light air performance but the big problem for blue water sailing is stability. The wide shallow hulls combined with shoal draft keels make for very poor range of positive stability.
Fantastic job, Tim! You’ve truly earned this. Your hard work over the years has paid off!
Thank you very much!
My marina was built for boats built in the 80s and 90s. The max beam of newer boats is much wider than older boats. This really limited my choices. My partners and I ended up with a 2023 Hanse 388 - it fits nicely in our slip. It has twin helms, but only one rudder and the boat sails well on all points of sail. No need for a bow thruster while maneuvering in the harbor.
Hello. You are so correct on your comments, I had a beneteau 25.7 first . Bought it new (dealership disaster) it wouldn't steer until it had water passing over the rudders, that took two boat lengths forward or reverse, slammed directly into waves, ( you could have broken the boat easily in two,) but it could go downwind with the lifting keel up, it also was a disaster until I bolted it down properly, great yanmar though!
Some lifting keels are just calculated for the trailer, or for running aground. You must bolt them down while sauling. THOSE keels are not safe to lift while sailing. You got to check that. Seriously, watch out!
Really really do not like the direction boats are going.
Congrats! Sooo close to 100k!
Thanks!
This is great, I have never been on any of these boats and yet I could almost feel the problems.
I don't understand your explanation of why the boat you tested had a tendency to ride the wave at the bow. My understanding is a straight bow would tend to cut more into the wave and a raked bow would increase buoyancy a lot as you hit a wave. It would more likely be caused by the bow being more beamy and have little to do with the beam being carried aft
I agree, this summer I was on V-shaped Beneteau 38.1. It was nice on a flat sea but when swell picked up, it wasn't comfortable at all to sail upwind. Such a difference to Bavaria 46, which was behaving much better in rough seas.
Ok , moving slowly forward with twin rudders into a marina berth can be challenging, reversing in , no problems.
Bow thrusters are just as reliable as anchor winches .
Most cruising is planned as Downwind ...!
Cruisers spend 90+% at anchor or stationary , so getting to anchor or port in possibly half the time makes sense plus the safety of being exposed to the weather at sea is reduced .
I have a sort of modern boat with a wide stern and it goes upwind at the same speed as the older boats, but as soon as the AWA increases to 40 degrees and more it is a lot faster than the others.
Coastal cruisers I call em, great for shorter trips not too far from land and with wonderful accommodations. However...avoid large beam seas, as the wave goes under the boat with a flat bottom the boat can roll side to side at extreme speed. Enough to make the gimble on the stove unable to keep up and be extremely difficult to stand up. Fun to sail but not ocean going, a handful in large beam seas. They look good though!
Hi
I like your comments
I am presently in block island sailing to Martha’s Vineyard on my 40.1
One comment i can say with the new boats you don’t care as much. On currents
I sail at 9 nots so loosing 2 nots does not effect my d’édition to sail somewhere
And yea i would not buy this boat without a bow thruster
On motor i go 7.6 so i prefer the new hulls
A point to note, wide transom sail boats will tend to change the attitude of the keel when heeled (stern up nose down); this tends to run the boat leeward thus negatively impacting windward performance. You need to stack a lot of rail-meat aft and windward to counter this.
Circumnavigated twice, 90% of the time downwind or broad reach. I would sacrifice upwind capability for significantly improved comfort and speed on downwind courses. Cruising is about taking your time, and if the weather is not what you want it to be, you could always wait a couple of days and depart when it's not blowing 30 knots on the nose.
We chartered a Bavaria C42 a few months ago and were thoroughly impressed by its sailing performance, including pointing ability. And we also enjoyed the very wide cockpit and interior. But we did not sail in heavy seas so can't comment on comfort at sea.
Thoughts and prayers
I love the content and topics on this channel-this is a great subject! This winter, I’ll be chartering a twin-helm boat with dual rudders
Queen comes to mind....Flat bottom boats make the v-berth crew go ouch!
These flat big rear boats are aimed at the rental market IMO so they are big spaces on the water. I prefer my 36 foot single rudder sailboat any day of the week, and don’t get me started on the light wood ikea interiors compared to older darker mahogany wood boats. My boat is solid, not creaky when walking inside like some of the modern boats.
another MAJOR problem: broad-stern sailboats are not good at long distance cruising and not fit for bluewater sailing. They are volunerable to waves coming from astern. Benateau doesn't produces boats but hotel rooms. their average sailing time is half a hour, from the marina to a near anchorage for partying.
Love the channel and subscribed years ago even though I don’t have a boat. Also subscribed to your Charlie the Truck and HistorSea channels as knowledge is wonderful and I have been a lifelong learner. Back in the 1970’s (1973 and into the 1080’s) I built a Cherolet van and later a Dodge Maxivan into home camper vans with a bed, ice box, clothing boxes that slid under the bed, Coleman 3-burner gas stove, Curtains, etc. My wife, daughter and I camped all over California and Mexico for over 13, 14 years, so am loving our buildout of the box truck which is going to be more sophisticated than mine, but then there weren’t man, if any companies doing van buildouts. Keep up the great work.😊
Thanks for watching!
Congratulations Tim! I knew you were going to make it. So exciting to watch you grow. I will be preparing for a direct hit. Batten Down the Hatches! Here we go again! Happy Sailing ⛵
Great Episode btw, I was curious if you'd do an episode on something I am focused on which is food logistics on a sailboat. Yes, we can all do pasta/ric and canned food. But for those of us who'd like to learn more about potential food tricks on a sail boat. Specifics of tricks I've learned, ginger beer, farm eggs, condensed milk > powdered milk, hanging tomato's and microgreens, fish preservation. Basically tricks to add more fresh variety to your menu so you aren't eating out of a can or packs of ramen.
I wouldn't really call them dock queens, but rather designed for coastal cruising charter markets. Lots of accommodations and room to party. As a number of comments pointed out, if you let the boat heel up enough it can cut through the waves better, However not all your passengers may like heeling that much, which leads to the pounding Tim described. My bigger issue with this design is the handling in a quartering sea. That transom can really get tossed around. Thanks, but ill stick with my heavy, narrow Cal.
Something to think about, some smaller marinas... will charge you twice the docking fee for wide boats.
Oh you are wider then 12 feet on a 40 foot hull. So you are going to take up 2 slips. And that gets expensive fast
I came up with five hull plan forms: square ended box ( SEB), Double Pointed Box (DPB), Single Pointed Box (SPB), Double Arrow Point (DAP), and Single Arrow Point (SAP).
These trending boats are SAPs. I have attempted to design one. I found an big issue is that when the boat heels, the bow pitches down and the stern pitches up. One consequence of this is that the rudder tends to roll right out of the water. This is probably why these designs have twin rudders. As one rolls out, the other goes deeper and becomes more effective. But these twin, spade rudders seem very vulnerable to rudder strikes. So, I thought of putting a sturdy skeg in front of each. But that won't work because, when heeled, the boat is no longer sailing parallel to it's center line. Now the lift provided by the leeward skeg is lifting the stern upwind and thereby causing the boat to turn down wind. So, twin, spade rudders it has to be.
If I were refitting a retired one of these, I would redesign the spade rudders to be massively strong. I wouldn't think twice about making the rudder shaft 4 to 6 inches in diameter. This would make the foils on these rudders that much thicker. And that would probably mean slower speeds. But I think the added security of being able to withstand a substantial rudder strikes would be worth it.
I'm a blue water boat guy through and through. But these modern boats interior square footage can't be beat.
The limiting factor for speed is sail area. To obtain more sail area causes greater heeling-moment. To counteract the healing moment, a wider hull accomplishes this easily. With a wider hull, the center rudder lifts out of the water. A twin-rudder solves this. As to the prop-wash, installing twin engines of half the horsepower would add redundancy, maneuverability, etc. This is the next logical move. As to speed, I think hydrofoil design will improve to the point this will be the method of choice for exceeding hull speed and improving comfort in moderate chop. Retractable wings will allow a dual-purpose design for heavy seas and high speed depending on conditions.
Jeanneau Sunrise 34... An excellent compromise and probably the last decent boat model built by Jeanneau before they started making charter boats... just lift the floor boards and you'll see... and it also has a half skeg.
Yes my old S&S IW31 was true blood but as liveaboard comfort, there is no comparison and this really makes a difference.
Congratulations for the first 100K subscribers!
took my first and new to me old boat out a couple weeks ago single handed for 3 days and nights cruising a local lake... no real issues... my outboard could use a tune
Twin rudders can come in very handy - especially when sailing across the ocean. Every year a few yachts are abandoned at sea because they lose a rudder and cannot be steered - this is especially so when the yacht has only a spade rudder with no protective skeg. Expensive! Without the long keel of traditional designs they are too skittish to keep on course by balancing the sails. Having two rudders reduces the chance that steering will be lost.
That said - for ocean sailing a traditional deep V keel which provides sea-kindliness and protects the rudder (a full keel or keel hung rudder) is ideal for comfort and safety.
Excellent commentary regarding the design of these big dinghies, however.
After 15 yrs motor boat thanks to mi daughter ex rs feva and non 29er i started looking for a saio boat . I found an abandoned Franchini Yachts 41L Starkel Hull , skeg rudder and since 2022 i altostrati Fiat and tris summer we all sailed 4 FANTASTIC!!,
I used to race on a Dufour 335 and I have to say, my experience is pretty much the opposite of what you described. I found that the vertical line of the bow did more slicing through waves where sailing upwind in a C&C 30, with its slanted bow, lead to pounding... Not sure how to square this circle.
The drawback I've hard is more significant for wide transomed sailboats is that the wetted surface area is very large, so sailing down with with all that wetted surface area dragging leads to poorer performance down wind. The wide transom leads to a stronger righting moment, so better performance upwind, especially if you can get enough of a heel on to pull a bunch of that wetted surface area out of the water.
Some of the wider sterns, the water slaps under the stern when the boat is parked on a dock.
Thanks Tim. Great, very balanced, analysis. I would add that the chined hull on the Beneteau mitigates a good chunk of the heeling - which can be a plus or a minus, depending on your love of heeling.
These boats are comfort cruisers with 6’5” headroom, spacious cabins. I only go in reverse in marinas with my 38.1. I steer with the bow thruster. Seven years and no thruster breakdown yet, but call me lucky. There is zero prop steer on these twin rudder boats, as you noted. Congrats on 102k!
Thanks!
An upwind sail passage is a universally loathed thing - whether conducted in a large catamaran, a 55ft trailer, or in a sailboat (fat or skinny bottomed makes no difference). Most captains refuse to put up with a tacking solution and will send family members off on a plane or road trip that avoids these passage legs so that the captain can motor through the upwind leg in as fast and (un)comfortable way as possible.
Point is, 1. You will be sailing with the wind more than not. 2. You will be at a mooring or dock more often than not. 3. a modern, newer, wide-body boat is going to have fewer systems hovering close to their end of life, and finally 4) a wide body boat is less likely to be rolling violently (+-45 degrees) all night long while you are trying to sleep.
An ideal solution (I think) is a 45+ft aluminum hull (mono or cat) with retractable keel(s), wide body, and beachable. This will give you incredible? downwind speed and safety. This year is a pivot year for aluminum sailboats as new laser cutting and laser welding systems make aluminum fabrication easier and quicker than using the past methods of years gone by. The laser-welded aluminum boats can also promise exoskeleton construction methods (with 10mm - 12 mm) plate outer shells that do away with the need for bulkheads and through holes (aluminum hulls support through holes that are pipes extending above the waterline. These boats are basically icebreakers. A generator and outboard electric motors & battery pack would eliminate ALL through holes and make them indestructible? as well.
Well put sir.
Unless the boat is an old, under rigged long keel dumpster, motoring upwind is way more uncomfortable and slow than sailing.
There’s an interesting truism emerged over the past decade or two that it’s very easy to find someone who has owned one aluminium boat but very difficult to find anyone who has owned more than one.
I find it unusual to sail up wind at 40 degrees or so except when racing. I've sailed offshore and never noticed the slamming of the bow being excessive. There are lots of factors that effect this like rig weight aloft, weight in bow, etc. Most boats like this have a U shaped bottom Infront of the keel. It only flattens out behind the keel.
Thank you for your timely analysis as only the other day watching a review of a sailing yacht I wondered with my wife why yachts seemed to be getting so broad in the beam and it’s implications.
Thank you for all the amazing content! Please keep it coming! You sir have in fact helped go sailing!
Thanks for watching!
Here's to your achievement of 100K subscribers from someone that remembers when you hit 10K!. I love hearing the old "Lady K Theme Song" on today's video. It brings back a lot of fond memories of your videos when you departed Canada for the Bahamas. Back them I thought the "K" in Lady K stood for Kandice.
sailing to weather is my favorite point of sail...& of sailing.
Sir is "sailing to weather" sailing with the wind coming toward the front of the boat? Thanks.
You have helped me believe in my forgotten dreams of sailing across the oceans, besides you are a cool guy, congrats on your first 100K
Thanks for watching!
You should check out the RM 1180. Both are designed by Marc Lombard and therefore share a lot of similarities. The RM is a better build, performance oriented version of the Beneteau. On those boats you don’t sleep in the v-berth when reaching, you stay in the settee berth with the leecloth up. We often do 8.5-9kn+ in 15kn wind with our RM 1180 (39ft), and we can get as close as 30 degree from the wind. There’s a boat for everyone, it depends on the kind of sailing you want to do.
The split rudders do require you to go a bit faster to maintain stearage. My Jeanneau 349 loves to go to windward. It does heel a bit when doing it, but I have reached double digets in SF bay.
A few other issues with the twin rudders that are essential for these boats. The extra complexity of the linkages means there's more to go wrong, especially if the boat is poorly maintained. Not saying they will go wrong, just that the chances of failure increase. Then they're excellent at picking up crab pot lines. My sailing area is littered with the things but unless you're really unlucky the line's often diverted, but rudders sticking out either side look ideal if you want a crab supper. The final issue may not be highly likely but the effects can be fatal. Falling over the side is bad enough but at speed the boat will likely be heeled over with the rudder scything along. For anyone in its way, hypothermia is likely to be the least of their worries.....
I once chartered Jeanneau 519 and sailed upwind from Grenada to St. Vincent in 2 m seas. The bashing felt like the boat was going to implode. My ancient Alberg 30 is a lot more comfortable in the square waves of Lake Ontario. Granted it’s 1/10th of living space. Boat boats are great. Given the chance to go offshore, I’ll take the Alberg. Got really turned off by the idea of production boat in big seas.
These boats are good on most points of sail in flat water, but in bigger seas you pay the price. With all of that buoyancy aft, it pushes the bow down so that it digs in when going upwind. Along with the lighter weight of many of these boats, you will be going along and hit a good wave and the boat will almost stop completely. The worst though can be going downwind in good sized seas. With that flat bottom, huge a$$, and narrow high aspect keels, these boats have very little directional stability, they will spin around their keel with ease. Each wave picks up the stern and the boat wants to turn side on to the wave. I've been on a newer Beneteau going down the CA coast in 10-15ft seas and the autopilot couldn't really handle this, so we had to hand steer for the worst of it. Twin rudders help this some, but introduce other issues. But, manufacturers and selling boats for how 80-90% of people use them which is sailing in protected water with decent weather and sitting at the dock having drinks. They do those things pretty well, but they would not be my choice for real ocean sailing.
I disagree. I’ve been in pretty gnarly conditions and I’ve witnessed none of this bow down attitude. We carried a lot of volume in the bow and you would need 25+ knots tws just to get water on the deck. I found it was a joy to sail in rough conditions.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that in most modern, wide-transom boats, there's not much in the huge cockpit to hold onto. Send a crewmember to trim the jib, and there's a good chance they'll grab one of the wheels to steady themselves on the way "downhill".
2020 Beneteau 62 (with 18' beam) owner here Twin helms-- zero prob handling in marina. No pounding upwind, Wide and lots of space. We have not encountered ANY of the concerns you mentioned... but perhaps our size boat is not what you were talking about. In fact I find it's worst quality is light down wind sailing (broad reach and running downwind).
I have a Jenneau 49ds, it does pound sailing into the wind and it's not comfortable when you have to do it 5 days straight. But it is fast and super comfortable when I'm at anchor, at a marina or not sailing upwind. Which, let's be honest is 99% of the time. I'll put up with the downside.
As we know, very boat is a compromise, it depends what you spend most of the time doing in it. If you spend most of your time crossing oceans by all means buy a heavy narrow hulled boat that will acheive decent speeds in 18 - 25 knots of wind but that won't be much fun for someone who wants to do fun coastal or vacation cruising at high speed in comfort it's tools for the job. Pick your tool.
I have a custom flat bottomed very pointy wide arsed alu sloop with a big keel and single protected rudder doing double digits. I suppose I'm the only one pointing 10 degrees or even less? No need so far for a bow-thruster. The trade-off is draft. At 2.8 m it means I can"t get in (to trouble) too close to shore. It is comfortable in all conditions even surfing over head on swell. The king sized bed is a real winner. I just spent a few days at anchor in 40+ knots and it was fine even if a little swingy during the cyclonic system's passing.
Early congrats on the 100k mark. Well deserved and you are one of my main sailing channels I watch. You do an amazing job and we thank you.
Thank you very much!
You are completely wrong about modern boats not sailing well to windward. Also if you have trouble docking one then maybe it's you and your lack of skills, not the boat.
As a serious ocean sailor I love encapsulated long keel sail boats. Few years ago I bought a fun boat. A Beneteau 30 JK deep bolt on bulbous keel, two offset angles rudders. Amazing boat to sail. I kept her in Sardinia for manly coastal sailing with passages to Sicily and Tunsia. Definitely not an ocean passage maker like my Nicholson 32 and my latest Vancouver 32. I appreciate its horses for courses! But when it comes down to serious offshore sailing I would never consider these modern open cockpit wide hulled sailing boats! Never. For coastal summer Mediterranean passages okay. But never ever for ocean sailing in my humble opinion!
The French boats often have trickle down design cues from the Vendee Globe boats. They scream downwind but not so much fun upwind. I'm sure you'll pass that 100k crest soon!
That seems completely nuts. None of us will be doing the Vendè Globe and if we were, we wouldn't be doing it in a Beneteau.
Dude I found you a couple of weeks ago and love the tips. Although late to the community, happy to be part of it and congrats!!!
Welcome aboard!
Well, looks like very nice boats to me. Some of us just sail in the summer, due to lack of free time, and when we do, we tend to choose the best conditions available (i sail in the mediterranean). The value of that extra space is well worth the sacrifice. For example, if u went for a family trip to Menorca, you would absolutely love that boat, while the narrower one feels "cramped"...
This style started with the Volvo round the world races - wide sterns and twin rudders were meant to maximize downwind speed for that race. For some reasons cruising designs tend to follow racing designs. Then wives started noticing that the style made for a monohull with roomaran interior characteristics.
One crucial point is missed. Bear away by 5-10deg upwind.
Easy on the kayak criticism :) I can spin my 18' Fiberglass Stellar sea kayak on a dime. I'm a sea-kayaker turned sailor. Happy to offer some pointers on how to turn your kayak. Love your channel!