What Was Daemon's Master Plan With Blood & Cheese?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- Blood and Cheese's murder of Jaehaerys Targaryen was one of the most shocking moments of Fire and Blood, but House of the Dragon took this subplot in an entirely different direction. Daemon stated that Aemond was his target, but what was his real plan all along?
Content of This Video:
00:00 Why Blood & Cheese Fails At First Glance
04:31 Daemon's Ultimate Goals
10:00 What Daemon Really Wanted From B&C
14:03 Outro - บันเทิง
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Daemon is the living embodiment of "I dont want peace! I WANT PROBLEMS, ALWAYS"
And also Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question and the answer is always yes.
Lol exactly
And then he cries and breaks stuff when he gets them 🤡
And because peace is boring.
I completely agree with this. Daemon isn’t dumb he knew what he was doing and how it could effect him and Rhaenyra. And Daemon is 100% guilty. It doesn’t matter if jaehaerys was or wasn’t his target. He still sent two men in there to kill an innocent. Someone who had nothing to do with Luke’s death.
I mean, I think there is always a narrow possibility that the assassins do catch Aemond unprepared, and he would have been happy with that too. The reality is that Daemon sought specifically to conduct a terroristic raid on his enemies to eliminate peace as an option.
Daemon is a Targaryen supremacist, he must see the greens as impure and wants them all gone, in his eyes they have tainted the blood of the dragon. Even if the blacks won, he’d have to get rid of the Strong boys so his sons with Rhaenyra would inherit the throne. Daemon only cares about the pure Targaryen legacy
That's why he didn't try to have a child with his first wife.@@isabellajensen9480
Either way Daemon knew it would cause chaos among the greens.
They could kill Aemond in his sleep. "a son for son" could also mean a few things. 1: Aegon's son for Rhaenyra. 2: Aemond's son for Rhaenyra's if you thing Helaena had an affair. 3: Alicent's son for Rhaenyra's. in which Aegon himself counts.
I'm kind of surprised that some people joke about "oh it was another misunderstanding yet again". Even though the show made it very clear that ANYONE in the greens was meant to be a target. Cheese flat out asks Daemon "what if we can't find him?" and we don't see Daemon's answer but when Helaena is ambused they say to her "A son for a son, he said" which tells us, the audience, that that is in fact what Daemon's response to Cheese's question was. So them going after Jaehaerys instead makes a TON of sense. Therefore I'm confused why the audience complained about it.
Not everyone. Otto, Alicent, Cole, and Helaena were not targets. A son for a son.
@@havok6280 Unless you want to include half the council in 'the greens as potential targets', Cole would never have been a target anyway cause he's technically only a kingsgaurd. We as the audience know their relationship is deeper, the characters know it, maybe even the council knows it to an extent, but Cole would seem incredibly random as a target to the public.
I know that they needed Daemon to directly interact with Blood & Cheese at King's Landing for the viewers, but the thought of him trying to stealth-park Caraxes so he could go into the city is so fucking funny
He probably has a dragon sized INCONSPICUOUS hooded cloak as well
Now I have to visualize Daemon landing his dragon with brake sound effects and as he "parks" it pulls out a set of keys to lock up Caraxys
He could have landed Caraxes somewhere else and taken a boat the remaining way
@nonome8206 😂 nothing to see here, folks!
You made me laugh, but Kingslanding isn’t far from Dragonstone and I thought they showed him rolling up in a boat. :)
put simply, If i aim a gun at someone and miss, but accidentally hit someone else. I'm still guilty of the accidental shot.
Sound.
I'm sure Aemond would mistakenly burn down the Riverlands, Daemon would accidentally drive Dark Sister through his eye and Aegon will burn Rhaenyra after a terrible misunderstanding 😂
He's going to say "I'm sorry about Jacaerys" and Sunfire will mishear him in all the commotion and think it's a command to light her up
“Oh no, my beloved sister! I meant to say ‘I forgive you,’ not ‘dracarys.’ Dear nephew, please forgive my transgressions. In restitution, I shall name you heir.”
@@Chinchilla2310 back in the red keep larys is trying to remember which bottle he keeps poison in and shrugs. "I don't think it's enough to kill, say, a king sized man. It should be fine."
But the show revealed that Daemon ultimately wanted them to go after ANY green after Cheese asked the question, “what happens if we can’t find him”. Did you forget that part?
@@Emma88178 bingo, but even he would appreciate the twisted poetic justice
The critical thinking ability of Hill’s is unmatched. Excellent video
This reminds of me of Tywin in the books trying to deny responsibility for Elia's murder claiming he never specifically ordered Gregor to murder her. He just sent a bloodthirsty manic in her vicinity. Honestly Daemon is smarter then Tywin was in this situation since Tywin wrapped poor Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies in Lannister cloaks and presented them to Robert where Daemon makes sure that he has some deniability in Jaehaerys death.
I would argue that Rhaenrya has some responsibility for her nephews death. She set a monster like Daemon loose what did she think was going to happen?
😅 I think this falls under the "you married the man who groomed you and never considered if he was a bad man" type category.
Between the choke in S1, his open defiance, and blatant desire to be in charge, I think Rhaenyra is FINALLY starting to realize what her father was talking about.
He's wild, dangerous, and a plague.
Well she's off searching for her dead sons body. not like she can reign Daemon in at that point. assuming that she could regardless
Yeah I can give her some leeway because she's on bereavement leave but honestly asking Daemon to solely handle the revenge plot asking for shit to go sideways.
@@HillsAliveYT She just expected Daemon to handle it himself like the Crab Feeder, she didn't think he would do this. He isn't exactly known for being as ruthless as this.
@@Ch50304 the man who ruthlessly murdered his wife and ruthlessly butchered the smallfolk without trial and ruthlessly cut down a man fighting for his family's claim... isn't known for being ruthless like that?
I never thought about this hidden agenda of Daemon, very nice. Admittedly, it is very interesting to see how the death of a son affects the either side in a completely opposite ways, the Blacks unite in their grief whereas the Greens plunge in dissent blaming one another (which I'm hoping to see in the upcoming episode)
Imagine what a competent assassin could’ve accomplished with cole’s skeleton crew of a king’s guard that night
To be fair, Cole only has 4 instead of 7. One for Aegon and presumably one for Jahaerys.
In the book, the murder occurs in the Tower of the Hand which has less security.
@@havok6280 Very true he's definitely working from a disadvantage. It's more believable in the book.
"What if we can't find him?"
The camera cuts before Daemon answers.
Earlier in the episode, Daemon said a son for a son to Rhaenys. Blood repeated that line so it must have been part of the instructions we didn’t hear.
The show wanted to maintain the shock. If we hear it from Daemon's mouth, there is no ambiguity. The show has done this before with Daemon. "Heir for a day."
to be fair in that case it was to make us question if he said it in a mocking way or a mornful way
I think at least in the show, he just wanted anyone to die and just picked the two people he could find the fastest to try to get revenge.
Happy to see you here Aegor, lets get Griff on that throne soon
@irishpotatothief531 it's great to see you again. Hope you are well. LET'S DO IT. FOR YOUNG GRIFF!!!!!!!!
@@aegorbittersteel2154 Stand down, Valyrian. Westeros belongs to our lord and savior, the Great Other.
@@ucnguyenanh9414 😄 You know I can't gonna help YOUNG GRIFF!!!!!! It's great to see you again. I hope you are well.
House of the Misunderstanding
On top of all of this, I wouldn't put it past Daemon to be vain enough to NOT want Aemond dead by assassination because he WANTS to have a dance with him, even if he does need Rhaenys' help to take down Vhagar
Daemon ordered this to eliminate rival heirs to the throne for Rhaenyra. Jaehaerys was Aegon’s firstborn son and heir. B&C already knew who they were going to kill.
I don't think it had anything to do with "Heirs"... just a "son for a son", Aemond is the heir now anyway so it doesn't really matter if Jaehaerys died or not. If anything Maelor might be born soon... that's if the show includes him. Daemon just made Rhaenrya's claim even weaker now... Smallfolk/lords will now assume Rhaenrya had Jaehaerys killed and will not want to be ruled by someone who kills children. Can't wait to see the reactions from both teams to Jaehaerys death
Well realistically, if anyone thought Aegon's claim was better than Rhaenyra's, then there were a LOT of people the Blacks would have to kill before they could say that Rhaenyra or Daemon were the next in line, Jaehaerys was unfortunately on that list but JFC that still leaves like 4 more people at least who'd have to die after him.
@@HillsAliveYT I think Daemon knew that killing Jaehaerys would cause an all-out war. That would make the other heirs easy pickings.
I mean blood and cheese isn’t the worst choice for the assassination happening since cheese know his way around the red keep and blood is a giant gold cloak kicked out for his brutality likely under Hightower control so is likely much more loyal to daemon, and in fire and blood he was able to kill multiple guards of Helena and Alicent
Darmon wanted a war, and he specifically wanted Jaehaerys to die. The greens were right to fear Daemon, as he went against Rhaenyra’s orders. He doesn’t respect her as queen, he just wants power.
The hills are alive with the sound of video essays!!!
I don't have anything to say, just showing some love ❤
💖💖💖
The outcome was the terror, even an attempt would worsen the war. Daemon, beyond anyone else in the Dance, wants the war. He wants to extinguish the Greens. Perhaps the only one who is more responsible is Viserys himself, for his weaknesses.
As always, great video.
You hit the nail on the head with this one. I completely agree with you and you did a great job with breaking down your explanation. Daemon knew what he was doing with this and it shows what a conniving and manipulative and what a straight up sociopathic person he can be at times.
"Daemon was more snake than dragon..."
KingbobbyB spittin bars 150 years later
I’d argue that Jaehaerys was the target even if Daemon said Aemond. As you stated in the video, he knows they can’t kill Aemond and he also knows Aegon would be very well guarded. He tells them a son for a son and no head no gold according to Blood. Daeron’s at Oldtown and the only other green Targaryen son is Jaehaerys. I dont think someone like Otto or Criston or Larys would count for Daemon as they aren’t Targs and Otto and Larys don’t have living parents. And hurting Criston’s parents would be kind of pointless for Daemon. Daemon isn’t stupid he knows how this will probably end. Great video as always!
It makes sense he would want to keep Aemond for himself, instead of outsourcing it to some random henchmen.
Great Video! If he was serious, he would have hired a faceless man. Daemon went to Littlefinger's school of "Chaos is a ladder".
I love this channel! I wanted to point out that Blood isn't just some random hobo; he was a sergeant in the city watch. I'm confident that he and Cheese could successfully assassinate Aemond. Given that it was nighttime, Aemond would likely be asleep and caught off guard.
LOL yeah I maybe could have given Blood a bit more credit, but his dialog/the performance made him look like a total meathead.
It blows my mind how people nowadays rant and rave about the rich/elite doing as they please, skirting laws, all for their pleasure at the expense of the masses, but those same people are on team *BLACK* headed by two people who does as they please at the expense of literally everyone else. But hey, it is what it is.
The greens are no different. I prefer the blacks because of their open Targaryen supremacy, they don’t really pretend that there’s any selfless, noble motivation behind their actions. The greens on their religious high horse just piss me off. All the power hungry hypocrites in the modern world use the Hightower tactic of self righteousness.
Most people r idiots n I the new generation is all YES QUEEN SLAY tick tock mind numbing degeneracy
Team green does the same though( in that they skit laws and do as they please without regard for the common people for their own benefit and pleasure ). You are making such a weird argument based of an assumption on what you think people who support the blacks value. How do you know people who support the blacks in a fictional piece of high fantasy about about magical beasts and political maneuvering rant about those specific things in the real world? It's almost as if you are making up sh!t about literal strangers to make yourself feel smart.
Because the people tend to underestimate the capacity of a woman to do wrong to less privileged people, so they think Rhaenyra is virtuous because she’s a woman. That’s why they excuse Taylor Swift but hate Elon Musk.
I mean, it's fiction. I'm sure there were also a lot of real-life police officers who rooted for Walter White. It's not that deep. Shouldn't "blow your mind." 🙄 You do know what anti-heros are, right? lol
Agreed. He knew exactly what he was doing. Especially considering how the show cuts the scene before he answers what Blood and Cheese should do if they can't find Aemond.
I don't understant why Aemond has such praised warrios skills. Isn't he supposed to be 17-19 years old? How is he supposed to have more experience, am I missing something?
I think the pause, when Cheese asks what they should do if they can't find Aemond, was evidence enough that Daemon agreed to kill an heir. It may not have shown his verbal response, but I think his facial cues already say a lot. This was no accident; they couldn't find Aemond, so they searched for another son as per Daemon's request.
In the book it says blood was a sergeant in the gold cloaks. I forget exactly why he was fired but that's why he hated the blacks. In the show he's even wearing his uniform when daemon meets him. I know he's no faceless man but I'm pretty sure he knows his way around a blade and is pretty talented at killing. And the whole point is to attack aemond off his guard, in which case he could be killed easily by two inexperienced men, let alone one decent fighter and and an inexperienced man.
Everything you said about cheese is spot on.
I don't think daemon wanted jaherys killed but I think you're absolutely right that he wouldn't really care.
Also in the book they got away & were never seen again by anyone important to the story.
Blood got caught beating a lady of the night to death and got fired. A real stand-up guy 😂
Cheese got away, but blood was caught and tortured for 13 days until he died.
Blood was considered too brutal even by Daemon. You meant the greens right?
Daemon being too scared to go after Aemond is so relatable tbh
His first plan at the start of the episode was to kill Vhagar in battle.. with the help of Rhaenys and Meleys of course lol
@@sheenydonut and when she wouldn't help, he behaved as the coward he is and send two deadbeats to kill a child.
Great video . I’ve seen many people claim that bc made the mistake while completely ignoring Daemons role in the deed
When Rhenerya yells at him next episode…..I’m going to be thinking about Rhea and that guy in Driftmark.
Hope the writers remember that Rhaenyra signed off on that second murder.
@@amorojaz27 the fact that in the promo, Rhenerya complains Daemon “weakened her” feels a bit rich. The rumors of what happened to Rhea (and as you said, that poor forgotten guard) should have done that. Shouldn’t THAT be why she doesn’t fully trust him?
Enjoyed this, mostly agree with you. Even a failed attempt might have encouraged escalation.
The problem with blood and cheese is that it’s not clear enough we shouldn’t have to do so much work to find daemons guilt we shouldn’t have any plausible deniability for daemon it’s too easy daemon really should just be doing something bloodthirsty to start war we should be seeing him be straight up warmongering
LOL yeah, I mean I think that the subtext here is pretty strong, but the average viewer probably doesn't care enough to think it through, so making things clearer would have helped.
@@HillsAliveYT
Yeah especially since a lot of team black supporters think deamon and rhenerya are a cute love story and not an uncle grooming his niece, Matt smith is just too charismatic to be detestable
What most book readers don't understand is that Daemon telling the assassins onscreen to go after Aemond is to make the death of Jaehaerys more shocking for the casual viewer. There are more non-book readers than book readers watching the show. I personally think the show version works better cinematically.
@@liamdamon
I’m not entirely sure I think if they just had daemon say a son for a son and not that aemond was the target would’ve worked better still a lot of the asoiaf twists aren’t really twists they’re the things you’d expect to happen in the real world but we’re conditioned to not think would happen in our stories like a character breaking a marriage proposal than going back to that same family would result in death
@@thepunisher6674Still, he said son for son, so I don’t see any problems. Fanatics of both sides will always try to find the good in their team's characters. Let's not forget that Daemon is a murderer (5.7), Rhaenyra is a murderer (7), Alicent is covering for murderers (5.6), Aegon is a rap*st (8)
Interesting question for people in the comments. Do you all think Daemon actually cared about Lucerys or do you think he was using him as an excuse to kill Aemond/ a member of the Greens?
Nope. Daemon doesn’t care about anyone on team green. It was just his excuse to kill anyone on that side
@@adahharris943I meant Lucerys. Sorry about the confusion.
@@Wolf-xy7xpooooh lol. Well I think he only cares about Luke bc of Rhaenyra. But doesn’t go past “I only care about you bc you’re my wife’s child”
I doubt he cared very much, he seems to only really have any emotional attachment to Viserys and Rhaenyra.
He is extremely tribalistic. So, in his mind, the Blacks belong to him. Not so much care as possessiveness. Everyone else outside this bubble is persona non grada.
Daemon knew that in the end it would cause chaos among the Greens. Even if it was just a short moment, he’d be there to take advantage of it.
Daemon thrives in wartime and chaos. He knew what he was doing and is not ashamed whatsoever
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, in the book the consequence of Helaena going through this trauma is that she just can't ride her dragon throughout the war. And I can't help but wonder this, was this intentional? Helaenas dragon Dreamfyre is a big deal after all, quite a old dragon.
My first thought was of course not, if that was the case it wouldn't it be easier to just kill her off? The assassins had her right there after all.
But if Helaena were to die her dragon could just pass to another rider. Although it probably wouldn't happen until the war is over quite honestly, given right now there probably isn't a prominent Targaryen green who could have taken up riding Dreamfyre.
But again, the book assassination of her eldest son is just so brutal and sadistic. It almost feels like a intentional attempt to inflict as much trauma on Helaena as possible.
I am honestly curious to hear from others on their thoughts quite honestly.
I think in the show Daemond sent blood and cheese to ultimately kill one of the children. He would know that the death of the kings heir would cause more pain and overall damage than the second son of a dead king
Also, Aemon will know his brother's son was killed because of him, he will have to live with it.
Otto already make it clear that aemond with vhagar is the sole real power in weateros. Killing aemond will have a tremendous strong impact on the green. If aemond died, no one will be able to control vhagar other than the dragon seeds
Exactly. Also Aemond could fight back. Jaehaerys couldn’t.
This is mostly me being pedandic. But Aegon and Otto could absolutely be overpowered by two men. Both are wandering around unarmored, so they would not stand a chance. Especially given Blood is a former gold cloak. Otto is not a fighter and is growing old, and Aegon is a drunk of his tits in this episode.
Like remember how Ned Starks forces overpowered three legendary kingsguards? Even if Ned and Howland Reed were the only survivors the kingsguard all lost to superior numbers in the end. And that is with trained legendary kingsguards. A lesser trained individual like Otto or Aegon would likely not survive two foes.
Blood is a former Goldcloak, not former kingsguard.
@@wanderingshade8383 Yeah I know, I did mix up kingsguard and goldcloak in my head. It's been a while since I did watch ASoIaF stuff.
Aegon is never going to be alone. The chances of killing him are practically zero. The other adult male members of the Greens would be impossible to kill numbers or no with the exception of maybe Otto( even then it would be extremely difficult because cheese doesn't have the slightest of training)
Aegon is going to be surrounded by Kingsguard at all times so even if they could overpower Aegon they can’t overpower his Kingsguard.
Yeah, Aegon would not be left unguarded so, even if Blood could take him in a 1v1, that's moot. But that dude could absolutely kill Otto.
Wow this was an awesome listen. This all makes a lot of sense the way you laid it out.
this is such a well put together video and argument wow, so many new things to consider
hill’s alive seconds before posting this: *i am sittin on a badboy piece of information*
I was waiting for this video.
The point of this was always to speed up Rhaenyra's urgency. Lighting a fire under her bacon, so to speak, and by proxy speed up the greens call to war as well.
sending a cop and an untrained rat catcher after one of the most renowned fighters in the seven kingdoms was bold, i’ll give him that.
Considering how cowardly and cruel blood and cheese were and that there were only 3 people who could fit the “a son for a son” (1. Aemond, who is known for being a good fighter, 2. Aegon, who is never alone, and 3. Jaehaerys, who was a defenseless toddler), I think it's safe to say that them going after Jaehaerys was probably the most predictable outcome. But as you said, no matter what happened, it would benefit Daemon.
Doesn't Aegon surrond himself with a bunch of drunk commoners while B&C sneak in?
Weird to see people call this an acident on daemons part considering he explicitly condones the murder of jahearys.
Love this breakdown, deeply detailed and analytical
Excelent insight, as always Hill
I think it can be summed up to “I’m leaving here with something”. Yeah he would’ve preferred Aemond but any sense of revenge would be good enough for him. I think leaving it vague on his part makes it flow better because to non book readers, if he we heard him say to get anyone they would know that they’re not going to kill aemond. Leaving it vague probably made it a little more suspenseful to people who dont know what was happening
unrelated by the cole and alicent sex thing bothered me and i want to vent. please bare with me, comment if you agree or disagree, but i feel safe venting in your channel coz your the only one i know that does not have it out for the greens.
now for the venting, about the affair:
first off, it is totally unneccesary, adds nothing to the plot or the character's developments, and in fact just deconstructs some accepted truths about these characters. (we've seen ali just lay there looking at space while vizzy was busy ontop of her, and we've seen cole be lured to a death bed by rhea with dubious consent issues, so, like, its been established these people need to be coerced into sex- they are the bottoms of the bottoms and have zero guts for first moves, how they would have brought up oral with a straight face is a mystery- they have intimacy issues, what with their mutual grape trauma, and they are religious rule abiding prudes who think sex is for marriage, duty, kids, and not pleasure, so like, a spicy secret affair is NOT their style)
second off, its an irritating meme, where like, men and women cannot be just friends, they have to be friends with benefits or something secret and sexual is going on, like, ali and cole, were both burnt by royals and she saved his life and he defends her life in turn, why was that NOT ENOUGH! (it just proves that people these days do not have friends, they cannot concieve of a platonic relationship, with deep bonds because the only deep bond they ever know is sex, sad)
third off, their relationship is a crude and casual dismissal of their mutual grape trauma. you would think, someone like ali who has been sexualized by her dad, her bestie's dad, and then her bestie's lover's brother would appriciate a man in her life who is with her and on her side without her giving her body to them. like, cole with his vow of chasticy must have been a breath of fresh air, like a gay best friend or something, a man who will not sexualize ali. (while i understand that grape victims can move on to have healthy sex lives, it was embarrasing how badly done this romance was, they sex scenes were like, blowing off steam, instead of both characters understanding and comforting each other with sex they both deserve.) and cole, damn, at this point, cole must have lost all trust for women, coz the first woman he guards takes advantage of him being available and obident and now, the second woman, the queen who rescued him, just as rhae lifted him up, has backed him into the 'pet-sex-buddy' role. how does the friends with benefits thing not be triggering for these two?
fourth off, this was clearly a passive aggressive brush off about the whole "justice for cole" thing. the people who were saying that rhae is a bad person for taking advantage of cole, are being gagged with scenes of cole getting on with ali, like as if, this is a fetish for him. like, "look, he's clearly the type of guy to sleep with his employers, no biggie. he might be into women topping him or he enjoys this power dynamic" and also, it diminishes how much cole values his chasticy vow, " look, he just breaks his vows for anyone" and in this way, they minimalize how rhae ruined his life, the trauma is now, just a crush that didnt work out, instead of a life or death risk he took only once.
finally, this was a passive aggressive jab at alicent. like they were trying to knock her down her 'high horse' or whatever, like, "how dare you judge our sexually liberated queen, when you, yourself are sleeping with men who are not your husband, little miss good-girl homemaker tradwife" or some sheet like that. they did it subtly with the foot guy, and are now doing it more obviously with cole.
(i have so much more to say, and i'll probably edit this later, but i am running on rage fuel right now, and this is turning out longer than i thought for a short vent, so i'll leave it here.)
Me seeing the questions in the title and on the thumbnail: he wants anyone he doesn’t like/isn’t on his side dead all the time so yeah, he wanted him dead and his mats tear plan was just fuck the greens. Maybe he saw how the death affected Rhaenyra and how Rhaenys described her own grief and thought he could recreate this by killing a more innocent family member, but if he didn’t think that far ahead I wouldn’t be surprised either
Edit: really enjoyed your other explanations for why he may have done this, always like hearing your perspectives!
More to the point about B&C though;
I'll say, I don't think Daemon picks just any two random beggars to try and assassinate Aemond.
In Fire and Blood, Blood is noted as being a former Gold Cloak (former because he was ousted for having beaten a sex worker to death and was expelled as punishment, in the show, Blood is a current Gold Cloak, evidenced by his wearing a Gold Cloak when he greets Daemon and also referring to Daemon as "commander"), so, at the very least, Daemon has hired someone that, even if they've never been in a real fight, at least knows how to wield a sword, plus Cheese is mostly a navigator to get the pair into the Castle.
That being said, I am personally of the belief that Daemon's Gold Cloaks are mostly just a bunch of sadists that are incompetent in a fight, but want to act out violent fantasies with impunity, so I'll grant you, Blood still probably wouldn't be all that good in a fight. He's basically that cop that brags about how super awesome his service weapon is when he puts a laser pointer on it, but then sits outside when a school shooting happens.
But back on point, HotD doesn't have Daemon outright say that Jaeherys is an acceptable secondary target if Aemond "can't be found," (the cutaway I assume was to keep the surprise for later, but like you said, it is annoying in how it works to absolve even Daemon of his culpablility in this act), but if you remember earlier in the episode when Rhaenys returns and Daemon tries ordering her to "fly with him to King's Landing to kill Vhagar," I think Daemon ultimately has one goal he can accomplish two ways:
Daemon clearly doesn't seem to count the Green dragons as real or serious threats- *with the exception of Vhagar.*
Accordingly, it seems Daemon either wants to kill Aemond so that Vhagar is essentially neutralized as a factor by severing her rider-loyalties to the Greens, or, failing that, he wants to do something so heinous that it would provoke the Greens into attacking Dragonstone.
In this latter option, Daemon would be taking a page out of the team Green playbook, forcing all the other main dragon riders on team Black (namely Rhaenys, Rhaenyra and Jace, maybe Baela as well) who have been disregarding Daemon's orders, to close ranks, and fight not out of some "venegeful impulse" as Rhaenys calls it, or out of some dangerously over-ambitious bid for the throne that Daemon wants, but he will have instead forced them into a position where, even if they disagree with/dislike Daemon, they will be forced to work together as Daemon has escalated this into a fight for survival. As we see in the first small council meeting with Aegon and Aemond, although Otto and Alicent seem a bit hesitant about Aemond's attendance (given his accident role in escalating the war), they don't outright dismiss him, and Aegon welcoming him for the value added by his tactical prowess and trustworthiness, means I doubt Daemon was really trying to drive a wedge in the Hightower faction, and was instead seeking to create the conditions where the people in his own faction would have to emmulate them for the sake of military necessity.
Additionally, having the Greens provoked into rage gives Daemon the opportunity to not only fight with homefield advantage if they attack Dragonstone, but also might potentially afford Daemon a conventient way to dispose of Rhaenyra and Rhaenys by having Vhagar kill them, removing other claimants to the throne or people Daemon regards as insubordinates disposed of with the help of Aemond doing all the dirty work of Kinslaying, while Daemon presumably thinks he would survive and stand to gain the most from his battlefield promotion literally making him next-in-line for the throne when the dust settles.
That's dark and sensible
Well the green dragons save Vhagar aren't really threats. Sunfyre and Tessarion are about as ready for war as Syrax who has never faced a day o hardship. Dreamfyre won't fight because Helaena won't. So only Vhagar is a real threat to him. even when fighting Vhagar Daemon still kills her and Aemond. if he wanted to provoke the greens it worked.
Hey! I am from the future, and have watched the second episode. You absolutely called it :O
Daemon is a true villainous scumbag hands down the most vile persons in the show.
2:11 If I may push back here a bit on the point about Alicent's actions during the Green Council being yet another comedy of errors moment.
I know you've made this point before on the ByteMarx podcast that you feel Viserys's deathbed changing-of-the-will cheapens the decision to begin the dance by essentially sapping Alicent of the agency she would have to exercise in pulling the trigger, but personally, I've never read it that way.
Keeping with the tradition of GoT characters being defined by dichotomies of motivations rather than linear character arcs (ex. Jon Snow, Love v. Duty), Alicent has two competing traits of her desire to protect her family warring with her desire to avoid conflict.
Throughout season 1, we see times when Alicent, shy and conflict-averse, relents to whatever people around them ask of her (giving her favor to Daemon after cheating to win his Joust with the Hightower champion like a punk, marrying Viserys & the "bedroom scene" when she is called to him) demonstrating her willingness to endure indignities and suffering if it means that conflict between the people around her that do exercise agency, can be avoided (which, side note, becomes a thematic thread for the Greens as a whole, most clearly demonstrated by Aemond's "fair exchange" rationalization).
However, we also see times throughout the season where she does seem to push back and have some hard red lines, like confronting Rhaenyra about having sex with Daemon, refusing to marry Jace and Heleana, and of course, once escalated to physical violence by Aemond's multilation- attacking Rhaenyra.
So we see these two competing drives of the Shy-and-Conflict-Averse Alicent and the Fire-and-Blood Alicent becoming more and more incompatible as events progress, which leads her to increasingly rely on rationalizations for her actions to keep the peace between her character's own driving motivations.
In episode 8, The Lord of the Tides, we see Alicent meet with Otto and Vaemond before the petitions for the succession of Driftmark are heard, and while it's clear that she's going to side with Otto and Vaemond, she opens the scene with the line, "I must admit my uneasiness now that this is at hand." This is because she knows the true issue of Driftmark is that Luke is a bastard and that in opening acknowledging that, it would necessarily follow that so too is Jace, directly challenging Rhaenyra's claim to the throne and inviting conflict. To help settle her then, Otto offers her a rationalization that "although the Realm had enjoyed a long peace, the threat of war looms, and do we want a child leading the most powerful navy in the Realm when it does?" Which Alicent responds with, "we must consider our subjects," in other words, helping her rationalize that the succession of Driftmark is a matter of merit, not one of blood.
What's important here is that Alicent needs *license* to take actions (preemptive of direct violence against her family) that she knows will invariably lead to conflict in order to soothe her anxiety about doing something that might harm those around her, as Otto's dismissal and Vaemond's assassination clearly demonstrate to her that stepping out of line of Viserys' wishes can have real, even deadly consequences (unless a fait acompli is absolutely guaranteed, which, given that we need a conflict to make the story interesting, can't happen, it has to be a gamble).
Given that keeping with the cannon of Fire and Blood then would require the Greens to act first (and also since if Daemon could, he likely would just immediate try to assassinate all the Greens given the chance), Viserys's deathbed "confession" isn't Alicent dutifully acting out the wishes of her now-dead husband with no-agency of her own, but is instead a narrative device to give Alicent the license she needs to go along with the plot to crown Aegon as king (something she knows will spark conflict) without it being too-jarring of a shift for her character, while also not wasting limited screen time shoehorning-in some minor, convoluted event or b-plot that would activate Alicent's Fire-and-Blood mode.
At least, that's how I read it.
I already knew what was coming, but hearing Daemon say at the start of the episode that his main plan is to kill Vhagar in battle over Kings Landing, only to revert to subterfuge and assassination seemed a bit of an odd way to write the episode.
The uncouth noises I made when I noticed a new HA upload 👐🏼
He’s not going to own up to being responsible, but he’s FOR SURE going to say it was fair and use Luke as an excuse.
Daemon is a second son of a second son. Aemond is a second son. Maelor is a second son. Daemon wanted Jaehaerys dead. The Sophie's choice in the book is Daemon trying to justify the chip on his shoulder.
I really don't mind that the show is playing up the accidents and errors. For one, it strengthens the theme of the show that dragons are too great a power for men to control and that control is an illusion. And second, it makes total sense because history has a bias to ascribing overarching intention and design in hindsight, when real life is extremely random and chaotic. i don't think the accidents take away from the guilt of the characters either, nor from the tragedy.
I think people are getting their pants in a twist about nothing with the Daemon cut away: it’s pretty obvious Daemon agreed to the killing of Jaehaerys (B&C’s actions make zero sense unless he did. What did they confuse Aemond with Jaehaerys? They’re after money and it’s made pretty clear that Jaehaerys head will give them money. While Jaehaera’s or Helaena’s won’t. If they went off script, why would this be the case? Obviously, Jaehaerys was made clear as an acceptable target and someone they’d be paid for killing.)
The cut away was clearly there to make it a twist for viewers who hadn’t read the books. They wanted to maximise the shock and surprise of B&C killing a child and make it a twist on the viewers expectation. They intended for it to build suspense, by making the viewer ask “oh no what did he say, what are they doing, what is going to happen?”
I think at the end of the day, Daemon never liked Otto, and Otto is too prideful in his accomplishments/family to risk losing this war. Both of them seem to be pushing both women and their heirs toward conflict.
3:14 That was not obvious to me. If you mean to say that Daemon knew that B&C would not succeed at killing Aemond, I agree with that. Suggesting otherwise would make him really dumb. But the idea that Plan B was not necessarily Jahaerys is hard for me to fathom. Especially with the instructions "A son for son". My impression that anything short of a son for a son would have been considered a failure. Yes, killing Helaena, Alicent, or Jahaera would have also been a hard blow. But I don't think Team Green would be devastated if only a guard or maid close to the family were killed.
Daemon is unhinged in his crime cloak 😂😂
Those rubes couldn't have beaten Aemond unless he was sleeping, and Aemond is enough of an anime villain to wake up thr momwnt they stepped on a wonky floorboard.
Daemon was probably like 'Oh well, at least one of them died...' and Rhaenyra will probably kick him out.
Side note and unrelated, I would have loved to see Ser Otto Hightower pull out a sword and fight B&C
The only three viable options at the time would have been Aegon, Aemond and Jaehaerys. I'm sure if B&C got VERY lucky and managed to come back with the head of Aegon or Aemond, Daemond would have no complaints, but he knew which head he was most likely getting if any.
Muh Queen i was late!!!!
I recently heard a podcast with Condal that he changed the scene because the book version was “propaganda” against Rhaenyra. He actually admitted it too.
The entire civil war that destroys the most powerful house in westeros in the long run is just one big whoopsie
Is daemon really stupid enough to think aemond could be killed by blood and cheese?? It's kind of obvious why they were hired and send.
And at times it's not about the visualisation of the horror but just an implication about what happened. the show even failed at that part. They didn't need to show everything, just the implication would have been okay. But they failed here as well as they changed everything.
Has anybody noticed how Daemon appears to only be able to finish with partners who are related to him? Makes me wonder about his feelings for Viserys.
I actually think it could be prodding the defenses of the red keep. I wonder if he just wanted to cause commotion to achieve some goal in another part of the city and keep the kingsguard on high alert while he scouts the interior of kings landing for weak points and meets with the goldcloak loyalists
I'm pretty sure there was a workaround where they would still be faithful to the book without explicitly showing Jaehaerys' murder, and it would be no less impactful. After all, this style of film-making has been done before in other media. B&C was one of the tragedies that made me switch sides faster than Hugh Hammer and Ulf White....and after all these years of anticipation, I am disappointed to see one of the most devastating sequences of F&B "replaced" with a version that is so lacklustre. It's GOT all over again.
Honestly, regardless of what you think about the show. What makes sense, what seems dumb, what's canon, what's too little, too far. At the end of the day this series and most likely all ASoIAF series in the future will be marred and intwined with petty Twitter drama-esque takes. I genuinely have a hard time enjoying even the books, because all I can think of is this fandoms toxicity.
I personaly like the interpation George RR Martin has: that daemon is both a hero and a villan at the same time (though he definitly is more of a villan than a hero lol)
Totally agree with you.
Cheese and blood says Deamon said to them a son for a son.. so Deamon is just lying he sent them to kill Jeaherys is they could not find Aemond
You know, Im just pointing out that in thw show we do not actually know that Jaehaerys is dead yet. She said "They killed the boy." Not "They killed Jaehaerys."
Excellent observation. The only way to move that makes sense for him in that situation (unless you are just supposed to go with the script and trust the writers uncritically)
I was always at the opinion that Daemon never expected blood and cheese to get very far or to even actually kill anyone getting in the castle is one thing but finding a royal alone let alone royal that could actually be killed was slim to none. The only reason it succeeded was because Allison and Kristen wanted very little people around when they were having their affair realistically, the message might’ve been to terrorize them and let them know that the blacks are coming for them and their children.
Alicent and Criston. lol
It's not Aemon's fault that lucerys was flying a butterfly 😅
Tbh, Fire and Blood is narrated by second hand sources that are partial and incomplete. I think it would have been ridiculous to just stick with everything and have the sources be 100% right.
I could see most HotD things be announced as canon by George, and that the series is the true events while Fire and Blood is an altered history book.
As for Daemon, honestly the series made him really bad already, he's not equal in light and darkness alike. They gave him a few redeeming qualities but they made him quite evil. And deleting scenes like him holding his daughters only made it worse.
And even then, Blood and Cheese seem to say that Daemon said "A son for a son" so it's not that good on him.
Okay I have a few counter arguments. 1: Would Otto actually be able to fight of blood and cheese? Otto is a best a tourney knight long past his prime and at worst a man only knighted as a courtsey for status. Either way Blood is an active member of the city watch in HotD and likely has more skill at this point. He also walks around un armored.
2: All blood and cheese need to do is kill Aemond while he's asleep. same goes for any of the adult green men.
3: Yes Daemon wants to cause some friction for the greens but he could just arrange for every brown haired boy in the city to lose an eye.
4: If Daemon wants professional assassins a faceless man would be the best choice. Yes they'd want an absurd amount of money but Daemon is a dragon rider. the free cities partcuarly pentos likely paid him for protection.
5: Daemon is technicly King consort. Laenor is legally dead so Daemon should get that title. That is what Viserys claimed Laenor would be. Unless he said Daemon won't get that title offscreen. If so it should have been mentioned.
6: isn't Aegon drunk at that time? he's using the iron throne as a lounge chair while discussing what his historical name should be? "Aegon the Dragoncock" being his favorite.
Even assassinating Aegon or perhaps Daeron would've made more sense for multiple tactical reasons... but Jaehaerys? Yeah, he just wanted Chaos, nothing more or less. Should've gone after more high profile targets, knock some dragons out of the war while doing so... and hire more capable fighters to handle the situation as well
Since it relates to this episode, wanted to see what you all thought of what the below scenario would have looked liked/the consequences been: Rhenerya, when searching for Luke, attacks Storms End on her own. Then when she gets back, she When she comes back, she has Rheana claim vermathor, then arranges a dragon raid on Kings Landing. The plan: have Melys and Vermathor fly in sight of Vhegar, then Syrax and Caraxes strike from above. The goal: have a bunch of dragons distract Vhegar, while Caraxes uses that long neck to bite off Aemond. Then beat it back to Dragonstone before Sunfyre and Dreamfinder join the fight
yeah theyre white washing the black faction a lot. the greens were the good guys.
rhaenyra named her only daughter visenya and aegon named his twins after jaehaerys, fgs.
They completely erased the part where Alicent tried to seduce old king Jahaerys and when he died she seduced his son. And Alicent misunderstanding Viserys’s dying words is so contrived it’s painful. The only “accident” interpretation that actually makes sense is Aemond accidentally killing Luc.
@@ladybird452 if you believe mushroom, you also believe that rhaenyra topped mushroom off!
Why do you think the original version is unfilmable and unairable? How is this less filmable and airable than what Ramsey did to Sansa and Theon?
4:06 What an accurate way to describe B & C in the show! It's a shame they had to come across that way.
0:32 Yes, however, the Histories & Lore motion graphics from _Game of Thrones_ did Blood & Cheese better justice, and did not explicitly show Jahaerys being killed. Visually, it was implied. _HotD_ could have done it very similarly and it would have been better, IMHO.
Mikannn❤
I wonder where was the Iron Bank of Braavos in the Dance of Dragons (that'll be an interesting take)
The watered down version of events in the show in contrast to Archmaester Glydayn's history although in the books Daemon the assassination carried out by Blood & Cheese is indiscriminate and any son from the Greens will do.
The implicit account of the Blood of Cheese merely elucidate The Rogue Prince's incendiary character, Daemon wanted to eliminate The Greens by killing Jaehaerys implies his long standing effort to consolidate his nefarious claim as Viserys' heir. "A son for a son" was the perfect angle to stoke a civil war.
11:32 Again, brilliant analysis and interpretation, but I'm not confident the writers were that smart and intentional about it. I'm happy to be wrong, though.
I wish every book comparison would stop failing to really recognize that the perspective of the book, an in universe historical text, makes many details included in the book less reliable than we think. GRRM being a huge history nerd knew this when he wrote it and often has the fictional writer discuss multiple writers versions of events in the book. And Blood and Cheese outright asked what to do if they couldn’t get to Aemond before we cut away. Later, we get the line “a son for a son, he said.” That line isn’t in the conversation we see. That line was the answer to their question of what to do if they can’t get to Aemond. He never names Jaehaerys, but he’s no fool. He knows who else he’s making a target, and he even warns Cheese about Aemond’s fighting ability.
@MartieMewMcBoltund The book seems unreliable only when it comes to the Blacks but not when it comes to the Greens.
So far, every negative action the Greens took in the book has made it into the show. Hell, the show even turned the Greens' faults up to eleven. While the Blacks' foibles in the book have been minimized, justified, or outright erased.
Of course he ordered the murder of Aegon’s heir, a son for a son, not Aemond’s, typical Daemon didn’t care about the babies. Don’t think the book’s version was unfilmable or unairable though, remember the Red Wedding? Then again those were different times. Anyway, it’s not like book readers wanted to witness the beheading of a baby, but a mother’s impossible choice as described in the book which was superior to what they gave us. The show’s version was rushed and underwhelming, the actress portraying Helaena was just fine, but some were more upset about the dog and that stupid sex scene between Alicent and Cole at the end, people were laughing, took away from Helaena’s tragedy. Idk, they ruined Blood&Cheese for me, such a bummer, most pivotal moment was downplayed and was not as impactful as it should have been.
I think in hotd the murder was more gruesome cause they had to saw through the boys neck
Say what you want ahout Criston, but at least he can do the deed with people who aren't related to him.
7:06 That is, IMO, a very charitable interpretation of Daemon's character. You are giving #HotD writers a lot of credit that I'm not sure that they deserve. I guess we'll find out in the next episode if you are right. I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced the writers are that smart, and if they are, I'm not sure it was the right decision, based on how poor (IMO), it was executed (no pun intended).
Tis an old difference between the books and show coming back to haunt us. In the books B+C only have access to the Tower of the Hand, and thus can only kill Helaena, her children, Alicent or Otto, which both means Daemon was definitely targeting Helaena's children and explains why he wasn't targeting Aemond. The show canon makes much less of a distinction between the Tower of the Hand and Maegor's Holdfast though (I can't remember if the tower of the hand is even a thing in the show.)
Anyway, B+C might have managed to kill Aemond if they'd been able to find a place to hide and lie in wait until Aemond falls asleep or something, but I definitely didn't think that they were trying that hard to kill Aemond, which makes sense. I don't think Daemon asked them to kill Aemond for plausible deniability though. I have trouble imagining Daemon being confronted by an angry Rhaenyra and going, "it wasn't my fault, I meant to kill Aemond." He seems more like even if it was an accident, he would still go "Yeah, I meant to do that" Aemond style. And while trying to drive a wedge between Aemond and the Greens is smart, how would he know that B+C would accurately give the Greens the instructions Daemon gave them? Wouldn't just having the greens tell Helaena "This is for Luke" before killing Jaehaerys accomplish the same thing?
In GOT, Joffrey mentions having to climb the Tower of the Hand steps for his meetings with Tywin. Not sure if it is in HOTD.
Well, look who looks stupid now (me)
Why do you think blood who was a gold cloak, could not kill Otto? Aemon, yes he make short work of them, but why do you think he can't fight at all?