HEAD to HEAD - Scary Sharp vs. Waterstone - Chisel Sharpening Techniques put to the TEST
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ส.ค. 2024
- Welcome to Crimson Guitars th-cam.com/users/CrimsonC... and Ben's home workshop where he is putting two chisel sharpening techniques to the test. It's going to be a head-to-head competition between the Scary Sharp system and the traditional Waterstone sharpening technique.
Which method do you use? Do you have a different technique for Ben to try?
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
3:56 On the timer - beginning with The Scary Sharp System - under 4 minutes
9:45 Next chisel up - this time using Shapton Waterstones - approx 12 minutes
17:40 To compare - takes longer with the Waterstones
19:24 Conclusion
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Every single video and piece you make - guitar or otherwise is simply 'GOLD'.........life wouldn't be the same without your videos sir. God bless to you and yours
he is an excellent personality and is very engaging to watch, while also producing great work...im waiting to see the vid on the mini 9lane restoration, idk if i missed it, but i was really excited.
So…….. do you wait for the chisels to go “blunt” or do you wait for your forearm hair to grow back before sharpening them. 😂
The sentence "Fine edge to get into the most delicate of spaces" makes it sound like you're using these to shave your trouser department
I use a calibrated flat with 1200-7000git paper. If I want to get snooty I use the special made polish left over from the HST used to make telescopes for NASA. (I used to run a research lab for Kodak) But some times I do it that way just because "LOOK AT THAT!!!" and it makes me feel good.
Line up all the chizels, take a photo, put said photo into an editor and click sharpen. works a treat ;)
Tormek. One nice thing about it is that once the bevel's been established, it is so very quick and easy to replicate it using their set-up jig. Another is that you don't have to return to the grindstone when your steel gets slightly dull; you use the strop wheel. A few seconds - literally - of stropping and you're back in business. Unless I damage the edge, I can strop many times before having the grind. And again, replicating the angle I want is quick and easy to do. Killer system.
I always use Waterstones because retirement means my time is not affected by profitability. The grit debate rolls on but it depends on the Steel quality and the degredation of the edge, meaning that you have to make an informed choice at the time. Nice one as usual Ben.
Thanks for the tips and demonstrations on sharping chisels. I have a set I also need to sharpen. Guess I need to get to it.
I use Rob Cosman's method. 1000 grit Trend diamond plate followed by Shapton 16,000. So easy!
Good demonstration of why using lapping film on float glass is considerably quicker. I’ve watched highly skilled woodworkers take 3 or 4 times longer using water stones freehand to achieve comparable sharpness to that obtained with lapping films and a honing guide. Stropping makes all the difference to final sharpness unless you use a very fine stone or film in the 1 micron range.
Gotta say, I prefer the method used by Paul Sellers (diamond plates + strop) - re-sharpening takes all of 30 seconds for an already-prepared chisel. I tried using scary sharp for a while, and oil stones for a while, and both were too much upkeep (ripping paper, flattening, etc) for the same results.
Paul is a legend and he uses Aldi chisels quite happily
Same here! Diamond stones and a strop, although I do use a honing guide most of the time, especially for plane blades.
Another Paul follower here :) I use a guide for the 1/4" and plough plane irons but the rest is all freehand.
I use the thin diamond sheets rather than plates, double sided taped to a thick lump of melamine face plywood.
Same. I have the trend 300/1000 stone and a DMT 8000 diamond stone.
I find that the most important thing (more so than going to 8000), is using the strop. That can make a 1000 grit polish cut like an 8000 no problem.
What grit should i be using for scary sharp? I’ve watched like 5 videos trying to get a list of all the grits and i can’t find it. There’s like 20 grades of sharpening grit. Japanese chisel sharpening is like 1000 to 8000. I’m guessing it’s 4 grades between those two?
I'm using the method I learned from Rob Cosman. A Trend 300/1000 grit diamond stone to flatten the back and create a secondary bevel then a 12000 grit Japanese whetstone to create a tertiary bevel and polish the back further. That my friend, is extremely sharp.
I think, for me anyways, the best system is a combination of the two. I use the scary sharp method for flattening the backs, and waterstones with a guide. I just started using a shapton, I'm a convert to them now. As I wear out stones shaptons will be what I buy.
Also, the brand you were thinking of was Veritas. :)
VERITAS!! Sorry, love those guys, I have a few of their planes. Do you ever use a leather strop after the microabrasives? I always keep one on the shelf under my bench and just give a real quick swipe. Takes it from razor sharp to slices paper like butter in seconds. Also, I picked up a powered Japanese stone from Woodcraft a few years ago that speeds the initial polish up a LOT. It uses the flat side of a disc instead of the round edge of a traditional grinder. Good stuff!!
Whetstone or waterstone is the tried and true method. I have used it for sharpening lots of cutting tools and chisels. The Scary Sharp method does appear to do the same job rather quickly and just as well. I will have to give it a go.
I havent watched you for ages , and I must say , you are more succinct, and its improved considerably, imo.
Good sharpening review of both system!
I've found it's mainly the initial sharpening where you'll see the time difference. It's like an initial setup of the tools. Resharpening is much faster at maybe a couple of minutes if you stay on top of it, which is pretty much whenever you feel drag or binding in the cuts. It should slice instead of requiring that the edge be pushed through the material.
To anyone looking to get into tool sharpening, if you have the time, definitely learn how to do freehand sharpening using either waterstones or sandpaper on float glass (I use both depending on tools). Once you've developed a feel for how the metal responds to sharpening, it'll greatly improve your use of tools like scary sharp since you'll know what should be happening.
My money is you using the scary sharp system, mainly because it's a much faster result. You have opened my eyes, thank you.
Awesome. Your content is amazing😁🙏🤘
thanks, one thing, by starter of with a higher grit on the stones and without creating a hollow you set youself up for significantly more work. Important point I think is that using sandpaper its important to get the right sandpaper system
I like to use a 120 grit Shapton Glass for initial sharpening (because it doesn't leave scratch marks like the coarse diamond I used to use) and follow up on a well worn 1000 grit diamond and then strop. Works for me.
I really need some good chisels. They're so expensive. I experienced a good chisel once, loved it and looking forward to owning some good chisels someday. Great demo
Thanks for the demonstration! i definitely need a better faster system to sharpen my blades chisels and turning tools and something like the scary sharp system might just do it!
Love the other comments here lots of good points tip for stones, specially on a budget with 2ndhand or well used stones, draw a grid with pencil on the stones and use a level object to rub a few times to find high spots in the stone and use worn out stones, tools or files to take the high spots down and repeat to get the stone level. It can really be helpful in time and energy
Ben, I’ll bet you use the Waterstones, I love using the Waterstones, there’s something quite therapeutic sharpening with Waterstones. Great video. Cheers Dave
I use the glass with different grits like you did with first chisel.Here South Africa those stones are extremely expensive.Keep up the good work.
Ben, when do the new Japanese chisels arrive?
Look at workshopheaven.com that may tell you the answer to that question. DC
as a young fella back in the day lol, I always used a water stone as shown by my old man, it worked for me
I have a Tormek T-7 I love it
I used scary sharp when I first started woodworking; it did the job for someone who could not afford a good set of stones I prefer stones without question
I used to work at a university woodshop and occasionally had to try to get through our entire stock of chisels in a couple hours (using wet stones), which is not easy when you have OCD compelling you to take each chisel to a perfect mirror finish lol
I’ve found for speed, I use a wheel if I need to re grind, but use a veritas jig to do chisels and plane blades at 25 degrees. I only need to use a 1200 grit DMT diamond stone and a strop with polishing compound.
Perfect polished repeatable edge in a minute or so. One stone, one stop.
I think everyone has their own favorite way of sharpening. The main thing is that the result is good.
I love tool Tuesdays 😁😁
Your looking for lee valley/Veritas. Incidentally. Their sharpening jig is so very nice.
Also. I use a hybrid Shapton/scary method. The paper is for badly damaged blades. Honing/ final edge is an 8000 shapton standard.
Thanks; much appreciate the videos : D
I bought some diamond discs 600-3000 and they do a great job, plenty flat for my purposes, no glue and cheap!
I use an inexpensive 1000g diamond stone with some window cleaner and an old leather belt with cheap chrome metal polish to strop. £40 total. Can shave with it very easily and quickly. But I gotta admit, the sharpest edge I EVER felt was a friend's katana. That was a truly competition grade scary edge. Looked like glass even under a microscope!
I love it
It was a good video
In another life as a tailor I had a tool that I guess must have been a handle-less chisel which was used to very quickly open seams - I've wondered for years what it was, how to search for one and/or how to make one, but it's pretty clear a small chisel would do the trick, hurrah.
It was great to use a whetstone because it took long enough that it was a nice break to pop out the back and relax for a while with a decent excuse - scary sharp would have broken my heart as fast as it is :)
I have waterstones and they really do the trick
I use a Tormek, only use the stone on new ore damaged chisels, otherwise I just use the stroping wheel, to maintain a super sharp edge.
I reckon you'll use the water stones... maybe? Personally, I find the water stones process to be more of an art, a little more "zen", even though scary sharp may be more practical from a time point of view. More suitable as part of the process of hand crafting an instrument, not a separate thing. I also feel that the edge may hold a little longer due to the natural slight convex curve that results, but could just be wishful thinking due to my preference. I love my set of Shapton stones, Narex chisels and Lie Nielsen 164, all purchases influenced by you...
just strop after the scary sharp, and i bet the sharpness would be the same. ag, u mentioned that.
i think what ill do is scary sharp and ill order the 3m, for the initializing, and then jump to my stones once they are set up, in order to save time in the beginning. thanks mate.
No worries, it's my pleasure. That sounds like an eminently sensible option.
Now I have to go sharpen my chisels. Good reminder
I am using a mix of diamond stone, water stone and a polishing paper I have from one of our printing machines. Funny thing is polishing paper is dry used.
I like the idea of using the 3M Lapping Sandpaper, which I presume you are using.
Laymen's question: Would a hybrid approach be a thing (since you have both systems) ? Like get close to desired precision with the 3M method and finish off with the wet stone method?
Most used in shop are Japanese chisels, mix of about 4 different blade styles, blade widths usually between 1/8-1/2 in each style, split of blue and white steel. Most are sharpened at 35ish degree range all with a microbevel (we mostly work hardwoods) on water stones. Just recently was trying some “harder” water stones, Ohishi brand. Think I will go back to the softer water stones, like the slurry build better on them. The softer stones are more expensive, but give a better edge IMHO. Diamond stone for flattening water stones. Water stones from about 400 to 6000ish. Piece of left over 8-9oz hide glued to wood for a strop to remove burs. Hand plane irons get sharpened on same. Have a old Veritas honing guide that gets used from time to time. Use small slip stones for gouges. Have a WS3000 in a drawer, have never turned it on. Have another drawer full of diamond stones that have never been opened. Metal lathe HS tooling gets shaped/sharpened on a slow speed Jet grinder running various white Norton stones and a pair of jigs (don’t recall their name right off).
Kitchen knives (high carbon “western” and stainless/VG-Max Japanese style; each are sharpened at diff angles) get sharpened, no jigs/honing guide, on the wet stones as well.
After 25 years and trying 3M paper to 0.5um or scary sharp (from veritas), several Japanese wetstones, Torkek, and Shapton ceramic, their was very little difficulty in making a decision what worked best for me. Shapton ceramic stones in 500, 1000, 8000, 16000. Tormek for grinding primary bevel when the secondary is big or on a new chisel. My second favourite is the 3M scary sharp, but that actually s a lot more expensive than one would think
I now use the scary sharp system.
Scary sharp every time. Preferably with a honing guide for consistency 👌
I hate talking grits of sandpaper and sharpening stones. Each manufacturer seems to use something slightly different. I really wish we'd all just move to the average grit size in microns. That way we could compare all of the abrasives used in sharpening i.e. sandpaper, diamond stones, waterstones, and Arkansas stones.
For instance your Shapton stones - 2,000, 8,000 and 16,000 - are 7.35 microns, 1.84 microns and 0.92 microns. Your Shapton 8,000 is just a bit finer than 6,000 grit sandpaper (2 microns), but not as fine as 8,000 (1 micron) grit sandpaper. And the Shapton 16,000 is just 0.08 microns finer than the 8,000 grit sandpaper.
Green stropping compound is around 0.5 microns.
I like the Rob Cosman 30 seconds to sharp video. That's what I usually use these days.
I have tried water stones, diamond stones and scary sharp. My favourite definitely is the scary sharp. I'm not going back to water or diamond stones...
I go hybrid... ceramic alumina sandpaper to prep edge, a handful of passes on a dual sided waterstone for problem wood species (10 or less on each side) , and then a strop. Once the back is flat I only sharpen on the bevel side and remove any burr that forms (ignoring micro-bevels). Using coarse stones or diamond plates is so much slower with no benefit.
I absolutely recommend trying a Tormek
In my lab at Cambridge I had a couple of 'microtomes' - the devices used for preparing specimens for microscopes, slicing them into wafer thin laminae. [ For biological samples, they are first potted into paraffin wax ]. One of them used wickedly sharp metal blades, like vast straight razors [ cut-throats ], only 6 -12" long, & ground from surgical steel. Steel is a polycrystalline material, and at the ultimate level when viewed in an electron microscope, the sharpening process will merely rip entire crystallites out. It looks like a view of the Alps, or any other mountain range [ but, very,very tiny mountains ]. No matter what grit you go to, you will never get to the stage of splitting, or cleaving the micro-crystallites.
For slicing even thinner specimens required a different sort of knife, and I had a machine that produced glass knives from strips of 6mm plate glass. When scratched & snapped, this produced triangular 'blades', with one 6mm wide edge that went all of the way down to the level of virtually single silicon & oxygen atoms. Unbelievably sharp, but glass is not crystalline, either polycrystalline or single crystal - it is a super-cooled liquid. Under the influence of thermodynamics, the knives would spontaneously go dull over a period of a few hours, as the exposed atoms at the very edge shuffled their way back into the 'pack'.
The ultimate blade was, of course' the 'diamond knife'. Diamond is a single crystal, and it is possible to cleave it along certain crystal planes, leaving an exposed edge. Because it is a crystal, the atoms are rigidly tied into the matrix structure, and are not subject to the same 'mobility'. Sadly, the blade was only 2-3 mm wide, in a metal mount - and HIDEOUSLY expensive.
Cutlass Custom Guitars.
The corollary to all of that is that, at the ultimate degree, the maximum sharpness achievable owes more to the forging, hardening & tempering of the chisel steel than the grit you work up to.
Hay Ben have you ever watched any of this guy's cane carving videos. He is very skilled and extremely detailed in his carving. Using everything from hand tools to grinding and wood burning. His youtube channel is called Stinnett Sticks.
Scary sharp for me. Considering buying coarse diamond plate for chips and angle corrections.
a valid way to go for sure
I got taught with Water/Oilstone technique . Scary Sharp looks quite good however . Takes the " Alchemy " out of the process .
Done quick so you can get back to the ACTUAL Job . And I think more familiarity with the system would yield better results as well .
One thing I got from, I think, James Wright, was find a system that works for you. What I do may not get a consistent edge for you.
Would there be any benefit to starting with Scary Sharp and then finish with a whetstone?
I think we may see a ‘Talking Watches with Ben Crowe’. BB58, Sub, Vertex. I’m sure young James had a Khaki King back in the day too. Well done chaps. Oh yes, sharp chisels too 😎
Lidl diamond stones over here!!
I'm cheap, I've got 1 oilstone and that's it.
But if I were doing woodwork that needed to be really sharp I'd combine the two methods, start with the scarry sharp and finish with the Waterstones.
Like to see a comparison with the TS Prof system
thanks for the video, do you have a link to the scary sharp system
th-cam.com/video/KohEPYAziGw/w-d-xo.html
DC
I dont have a strop, just wet stones, is the strop a critical stage for the best result? Am I missing that much more or is the return minimal?
@@davevick1775 sound slike im missing out on the party then! Guess I know what im shopping for right now...
personally would rather stone anyway just as i find it medative and i use it for knives, tho if you are short on time, and maybe in the future if i was short on time and needed to hone an edge i would consider the scary sharp option
Is your MP45 manual or automatic? Great choice. From a fellow enthusiast collector/woodworker.
Hi Crimson!How you clean your waterstones,later sharpening?On waterstone stay much dearty!😢How you clean???
have a look at this video - th-cam.com/video/0Sp4LvOaNkw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=LSL-Zf8NAKe94-tp
I use water stones but not nice ones like yours😂 I also use very inexpensive chisels. I don't think I'm good enough to invest in a nice set yet😅
Diamond 400 grit to get rid of any problems followed by wetstones 600, 1,200, 4,000, 8,000, 16,000 & 20,000 with a Naruto stone slurry that goes probably to near 40,000 when it’s in process. I strop on mounted veg-tan leather about 6mm thick on 18mm board , flesh side first then grain side . The only strop dressing I use is a little oil on the flesh side. I sharpen leatherwork tools this way for skiving.
For more rugged knives I have a strop 2’6” long made of leather coated in tallow and carborundum
What grits of sharpening stones should i get?
Try this playlist - th-cam.com/play/PLp6z5fUMeeAbeBdPcbA7p_hUT1x9ZBR4B.html
DC
Want to thank Ben Crowe for this. They got mine real sharp... I barely graced the edge and now have a couple nasty cuts on my finger.
Is your sharpening series still up to date?
I was planning to watch it
I need a solution for my tools but I also would like to use it for kitchen knives as well.
Carter Cutlery has the best knife sharpening (by hand) tutorial on here.
All the videos are relevant in one way or another. The best of the demonstrations of the Scary Sharp is the latest when Ben got to grips with the method. DC
Can you please post what the four film grits are? Thanks.
th-cam.com/video/YLi7CpLE_OM/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/play/PLp6z5fUMeeAbeBdPcbA7p_hUT1x9ZBR4B.html
hope these links help. DC
Seems I have come late to this discussion. First of all, like all great teachers you impart enthusiasm which is the essence of teaching. Second, you may have discussed Arkansas stones but I have gone back to my Washitas for chisels. As I restore old, usually rusty carbon steel chisels I understand why, when the Arks were introduced in the late 19 century they swept the market. That is not to say they are any good for knackered bevels which - as you say - require a machine or a 60 grit, 2 hour slog. Or good for modern tool steels.
It's that combination of chisel, oil and stone that is sort of Zen. My best Washita can be anywhere between 1000 and 5000 depending on pressure and other things. Then it's strops in a progression through black compound, green, white and Red (jeweller's rouge). I do my micro bevel on the strop. Knives, on the other hand, hate the Washitas and just love my Naniwa 400, Shapton pro 2000, Suehiro Rika 5000. Thanks for such a stimulating video.
Scary sharp for me. Less fuss, cheaper outlay, no flattening needed
I suspect that finer grits of sandpaper and using the strop would result in the same level of sharpness.
To the American viewers: Ever been to a Samhain festival?
To the British viewers: Ever been to a Samhain concert?
Both are pretty cool. (was cool for the concert)
Why didn't you strop the first one. I like the DMT diamond stones because I don't have to flatten them. I have a piece of 1/2" float glass that I used to use before I got the diamond stones, but I keep strips of 3M 150, 220, 320, & 400 on it for making whatever I want flat, like nut & saddle bottoms.
You don't have to strop at a high enough grit.
@@heMANshred
Ben stropped the second after 8,000. I wrote the comment just before he said he could have stropped the first one. I always do and do even if not sharpening before using. On chisels, anyway, since it's so easy. I wouldn't strop a plane iron unless I took it out to touch it up.
Ben you need to talk to Alec Steele, he’s a blacksmith I follow who could make you lovely things in Damascus steel…. That would be a colab of epic proportions!
Getting back on point I use a ceramic wet stone and leather strop, haven’t got any chisels but after 15-20 minutes I can have a shave with my Letherman!
"Damascus" pattern welded steel (not actually Damascus) is not good for chisels, the edge has to be a very consistent material which pattern steel by definition is not. high quality backs with pattern welded tops would be doable though. Alec seems like a good craftsman but i think his style is a bit too full-on for Ben's audience, it certainly is for me.
what abrasives are you using?
These are 3M. Click the link for Ben's latest video on the Scary Sharp System
th-cam.com/video/KohEPYAziGw/w-d-xo.html
DC
Scary sharp win!
japanese chisels are hollowed but they still provide contact along the longer edges as well. if any of u do joinery dont do this. another solution that i have seen is using a dremel with a ceramic wheel to VERY VERY CAREFULLY and slowly produce the same hollow. another option is using a carbide scraper that machinist's use. must be carbide though. hss would do anything but scratch up the surface. yet another is to use jewellers diamond files or sandpaper wrapped around a dowel. many ways to skin a cat
Why do you need to take out that fraction of material from the back before using the scary sharp? I did not understand that.
Creating that miniscule hollow makes it easier to focus on the tip. Japanese chisels have a drastic hollow, but on those the lengthwise edges form a plane together with the edge.
So what was todays watch?
does the Techniques have an impact on how long a chisel stays sharp?
Currently I'm using a Scary Sharp system, only because that's what the budget agreed to.
I think a more telling test would be to see how both edges hold up over time. How long will it take before you have to resharpen the Scary Sharp vs the Water Stone. My research has shown that the higher grit stones, such as that 16,000 grit Shapton, will provide an edge that lasts longer and requires less return trips to the sharpening station.
I'm using sandpaper from 800 to 3000 with water on glass surface.
There's a "problem" with waterstones - it's always a small process, almost ritual, to start sharpening... It's not like 1-2 minutes on glass and 1500-2000 grit sandpaper. From the other hand, you could buy/find bigger glass and use it for other purposes in the shop. I've bought 400x600x19 mm glass (and paid too much to be honestly...) - and now I'm using it as lightbox for soundboard preparation for glueing, leveling surface for necks, etc. Of course, that required some extra steps and it's not glass + sandpaper cost, but its multipurpose item in the workshop now. Heavy as hell, btw )))
400/1k diamond stone, 6k King crox pasted strop. If I go back to the strop on a regular basis I can use a chisel for hours and never need to resharpen
Hold on Ben, it wasn't the fault of the waterstone that the second chisel had a low corner. if you had used the two systems the other way around would the results have been reversed?
Exactly. 🙄
Thats what I thought .
Veritas
Those Japanese chisels are about the only thing in stock at Workshop Heaven at the moment Ben. Same at most tool shops, distribution is awful. Regards Jim.
Bought the Japanese Chisels... huh!!! LOL!! CAN'T have enough chisels!! =)