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Atheist Debates - Debate Review - Is Christianity Rational? vs Stuart Knechtle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.พ. 2023
- The entire debate is available at Modern Day Debates:
• INTENSE DEBATE: Is Chr...
Curiously, this debate seemed, at times to focus more on 'Is Matt Rational' than 'Is Christianity Rational?"... but there's still a lot to learn in this one.
One of the things that bugged me about Stuart in that debate- when he would catch himself being emotional & irrationally clinging to his resolves, he would say something like "Matt! Did you notice how we were both being children in defending our side?" Instead of saying, "I'm sorry Matt, I was being an emotional child in that exchange." He had to project. . . like the drunk who thinks everyone is as drunk as him.
One of the things that bugged out Stuart’s eyes during that debate was the copious amount of coke he seemed to be on. The sniffling, the laughter, the weird aggressive energy…
@@Mmmmilo I don't like to speculate but now that you mention it... 😶
Wait what? So not everyone is drunk?🤯
How the hell do you cope with the world and everyone, if you are not drunk?
@@ShutUpWesley The ganja
@@Mmmmilo lol so thats what theyre resorting to now, doing coke before a debate
I don’t think I’ve ever laughed so much listening to one of your debates. It was hilarious how predictable it was that he was not even going to come close to answering any of your questions. Always love listening to you, Matt. Cheers
I'm only 33 yrs old an seen all this..!!
I've seen 2 people RAISE from the dead after prayer in Jesus name! the 1st one was a electrocuted utility worker that fell out the sky bucket.. the 2nd was my own mom ! God showed me all this cuz he knew I'd tell !! I've seen someone go into the ER their whole right side was totally paralyzed she couldn't sit up or move at all!! the Dr did mri the Dr told her she had 2 blood clots in her brain and 2 clots in her stomach !! The Dr told us the bad news then he said that I should make arrangements with a nursing home !!!! I told him no.. !!!! I've never felt so desperate in my life!!!! I looked at her.. I said listen.. IM GONNA PRAY FOR YOU AND YOU WILL BE HEALED! I PRAYED FOR HER QND I SAID God heal her now!! You said u wouldn't give us anything we can't handle!! IN Jesus name amen!!! I LOOKED DOWN TO PICK MY PHONE UP OFF THE CHAIR AND WHEN I GLANCED BACK UP I SAW HER SUTTING STRAIGHT UP!!!! I SAID YOUR SITTING UP!! SHE SAID HEYYYYY!!! I AM !!!!!! I RAN OUT TO GET THE DR.. THE DR WALKED IN THE ROOM NONCHALANTLY.. WHEN HE SAW WHAT I WAS WITNESSING HE SAID " this is impossible" and walked out backwards AND SHAKING HIS HEAD NO... he ordered another mri every clot was GONE !!.. that same Dr never returned to the room! My grandma had 3 different types of cancer at once in her body.. She got a call saying she was cancer free after prayer! I've seen STAGE 4 CANCER DISAPPEAR in Jesus name ! I've seen my 2 family members that was completely paralyzed walk !!! in Jesus name and they walked normally for the rest of their lives !!!
I was baptized in the river in Jesus name and the holy spirit and I had a feeling that God wanted me to reach directly under my feet and grab a rock where I stood when I was being baptized.. and I pulled up the rock to look at it.. and it was a perfect fossil of a fish !!!! It had the eyes scales and all.. it's amazing that I was standing on top of a fossil rock fish while being baptized in water !!!! Absolutely amazing.. I'd love to show anyone if they wanted !
This is the truth..
aliens are demons..look up nephilim ! their the ones who built the prymids thats why they refuse to tell u how the pyramids was built! because if u knew the truth u would believe in Jesus! Fallen angel took alien knowledge from heaven to earth that's why u see alot of ancient technology artifacts on earth.. they were extremely smart.. brought amazing tech to earth.. the humans worshipped them as gods.. all the things u see around that's ancient formations around the world is made by fallen ones or the nephilim children..
Jesus is coming fast!!! we don't have much time.. if u believe in Jesus u are born again.. the holy spirit will guide u and change u.. its a gift from God !!! in Jesus name !! What ever happens to not take a chip in ur brain or forehead.. DO not take a chip in ur arm or hand..!!! AND STAY AWAY FROM VEXEINNS they might be apart of the mark.. idk yet.. butthe vexeinns might be the number of his name.. the number of a man.. just be safe stop vexienns !!!!! and do not let any human or ALIEN=DEMON deceive you !!!! It is written biblically !! A time is coming very soon !!!
ps I'm a sinner and struggle EVERYDAY.. EVERY MINUTE EVERY SECOND !!!!! IM NO WHERE NEARRRR PERFECT.. I GET ANGRY ALMOST DAILY.. I STRUGGLE WITH REFRAINING FROM WEED.. every single day is a fight because I absolutely HATE THIS LIFE.. I HATE THIS WORLD.. I HATE EVERY MOMENT THAT IM HERE !! BUT I KNOW ITS UP TO God !! And it's God's timing !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT BUT GOD CONVICTS OUR HEARTS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT SIN !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT.. AND MANY TIMES WE WIN AND MANY TIMES WE LOSE THE BATTLE OF SIN.. ITS DAILY !!!
REFRAIN FROM SIN YES!!! BUT IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPLETELY SINLESS NO !!!! BECAUSE EVERY SIN THAT U SURPRESS GOD REVEALS ANOTHER SIN THAT U HAVE TO WORK ON !!!! ULTIMATELY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS !!! THERES NOTHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES.. BUT ITS A PURE BLESSING FOR GODS CONVICTION AND A BLESSING TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT IT DAILY !
WHEN YOU PRAY .. PRAY WITH KNOWING!!! PRAY WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KNOWING THAT YOUR PRAYER IS ANSWERED BECAUSE U BELIEVE AND GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IT !!!! AMEN !!! Love one another like Jesus said.. be aware of sin.. ask for God to send discernment and wisdom to you in the last days !! ..
20:00 my mom as a hospice nurse for thirty years. She told me the worst, most agonizing deaths were people who were terrified of going to hell. Religion made their last years, days, and hours excruciating by terrorizing them.
OMG (and pardon me for that).... but this is SO true. I have a long story about a woman I worked with who I helped to face her own impending death (from cancer at a young age) by trying to shift her focus to one of trust, acceptance, and peace. She was terrified of dying because she was convinced she was going to hell because she knew the doubts that she felt (an odd combination of incoherent beliefs). She thought that her cancer must be a sign from an all-powerful God that she had done something wrong to deserve it. It was brutal and gut-wrenching.
The thing that rankled me so much in the end was when attending her funeral and the preacher was telling the congregation that E_____ had no fear of dying, because she knew that soon she would be resting in the arms of Jesus, blah, blah, blah. This was so false. When I KNEW she was terrified because she didn't believe that... or more accurately, she interpreted her own doubts as disbelief. And then the entire church heard a story that would likely engender their own sense of terror as the faced their own deaths.
This stuff can be toxic. Not always, but it can be.
@@MendTheWorld
At the 2 Christian funerals I have attended so far, I was very uncomfortable and frustrated that the officiant seemed to think this was an appropriate time to proselytize -- captive audience that included nonbelievers.
I really appreciated that Dale McGowan (Parenting Beyond Belief) took the firm stand that telling kids that they risked eternal torture was child abuse, and did not let any Christian in his kids' life tell them that.
I have never understood this. When I recovered from being a Christian I never feared hell. When I was a Christian I knew I was a reasonably good person, so I wasn't going to hell. So I never had any lingering effect.
Perhaps it was because the church my family went to wasn't one of those firebrand churches that seem to be more popular now.
An argument ad absurdum - "The Bible must be rational, because when it would not be, I would be irrational. And I do not want to be irrational."
An argument as absurdum _ "I was conjured up by a dumb unaware magically existing universe forming chemical daddy. I don't have a God".
You atheists are some dfs
Always fun listening to the opening from the theists, when they're explaining all the things Matt has to do. You know it won't go well.
I'm only 33 yrs old an seen all this..!!
I've seen 2 people RAISE from the dead after prayer in Jesus name! the 1st one was a electrocuted utility worker that fell out the sky bucket.. the 2nd was my own mom ! God showed me all this cuz he knew I'd tell !! I've seen someone go into the ER their whole right side was totally paralyzed she couldn't sit up or move at all!! the Dr did mri the Dr told her she had 2 blood clots in her brain and 2 clots in her stomach !! The Dr told us the bad news then he said that I should make arrangements with a nursing home !!!! I told him no.. !!!! I've never felt so desperate in my life!!!! I looked at her.. I said listen.. IM GONNA PRAY FOR YOU AND YOU WILL BE HEALED! I PRAYED FOR HER QND I SAID God heal her now!! You said u wouldn't give us anything we can't handle!! IN Jesus name amen!!! I LOOKED DOWN TO PICK MY PHONE UP OFF THE CHAIR AND WHEN I GLANCED BACK UP I SAW HER SUTTING STRAIGHT UP!!!! I SAID YOUR SITTING UP!! SHE SAID HEYYYYY!!! I AM !!!!!! I RAN OUT TO GET THE DR.. THE DR WALKED IN THE ROOM NONCHALANTLY.. WHEN HE SAW WHAT I WAS WITNESSING HE SAID " this is impossible" and walked out backwards AND SHAKING HIS HEAD NO... he ordered another mri every clot was GONE !!.. that same Dr never returned to the room! My grandma had 3 different types of cancer at once in her body.. She got a call saying she was cancer free after prayer! I've seen STAGE 4 CANCER DISAPPEAR in Jesus name ! I've seen my 2 family members that was completely paralyzed walk !!! in Jesus name and they walked normally for the rest of their lives !!!
I was baptized in the river in Jesus name and the holy spirit and I had a feeling that God wanted me to reach directly under my feet and grab a rock where I stood when I was being baptized.. and I pulled up the rock to look at it.. and it was a perfect fossil of a fish !!!! It had the eyes scales and all.. it's amazing that I was standing on top of a fossil rock fish while being baptized in water !!!! Absolutely amazing.. I'd love to show anyone if they wanted !
This is the truth..
aliens are demons..look up nephilim ! their the ones who built the prymids thats why they refuse to tell u how the pyramids was built! because if u knew the truth u would believe in Jesus! Fallen angel took alien knowledge from heaven to earth that's why u see alot of ancient technology artifacts on earth.. they were extremely smart.. brought amazing tech to earth.. the humans worshipped them as gods.. all the things u see around that's ancient formations around the world is made by fallen ones or the nephilim children..
Jesus is coming fast!!! we don't have much time.. if u believe in Jesus u are born again.. the holy spirit will guide u and change u.. its a gift from God !!! in Jesus name !! What ever happens to not take a chip in ur brain or forehead.. DO not take a chip in ur arm or hand..!!! AND STAY AWAY FROM VEXEINNS they might be apart of the mark.. idk yet.. butthe vexeinns might be the number of his name.. the number of a man.. just be safe stop vexienns !!!!! and do not let any human or ALIEN=DEMON deceive you !!!! It is written biblically !! A time is coming very soon !!!
ps I'm a sinner and struggle EVERYDAY.. EVERY MINUTE EVERY SECOND !!!!! IM NO WHERE NEARRRR PERFECT.. I GET ANGRY ALMOST DAILY.. I STRUGGLE WITH REFRAINING FROM WEED.. every single day is a fight because I absolutely HATE THIS LIFE.. I HATE THIS WORLD.. I HATE EVERY MOMENT THAT IM HERE !! BUT I KNOW ITS UP TO God !! And it's God's timing !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT BUT GOD CONVICTS OUR HEARTS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT SIN !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT.. AND MANY TIMES WE WIN AND MANY TIMES WE LOSE THE BATTLE OF SIN.. ITS DAILY !!!
REFRAIN FROM SIN YES!!! BUT IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPLETELY SINLESS NO !!!! BECAUSE EVERY SIN THAT U SURPRESS GOD REVEALS ANOTHER SIN THAT U HAVE TO WORK ON !!!! ULTIMATELY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS !!! THERES NOTHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES.. BUT ITS A PURE BLESSING FOR GODS CONVICTION AND A BLESSING TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT IT DAILY !
WHEN YOU PRAY .. PRAY WITH KNOWING!!! PRAY WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KNOWING THAT YOUR PRAYER IS ANSWERED BECAUSE U BELIEVE AND GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IT !!!! AMEN !!! Love one another like Jesus said.. be aware of sin.. ask for God to send discernment and wisdom to you in the last days !! ..
Your side of the debate was really great and as a listener, it was pleasant to realize that you and Stuart had a civil exchange.
But the arguments from Stuart - and this seems to be the case with many apologists - were so detached from reality and can't withstand critical examination at all in my opinion.
If believers are so deeply absorbed into their world view that they can't even look at reality through the eyes of a critical thinker anymore, it's hard to imagine how a conversation with them can be fruitful.
Stuart literally came into a debate about whether or not Christianity is rational, and spent the whole time explaining all the irrational reasons he thinks his Christian beliefs are true.
I just debated a Christian who said he believes in the Bible because he is "objective". It's really difficult to use rationality against faith because they confuse their faith with rationality.
Then he also believes slavery is OK.
I just debated a atheist who said he believes he was conjured up by a dumb unaware magically existing universe forming chemical "daddy" it's really difficult to use rationality against ignorance because they confuse ignorance with rationality.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
But a self created aware magically existing deity you have no problem with. Thanks for proving my point.
@@odinson6348 sweetheart. A source is required. You require one. Your God doesn't need to be a creature that's your job. Df. You failed at proving s point. Your God is not a creature. You are 😭 that's why he is God and you are a creature. Wow!
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
You don't actually believe a source is required for creation. You don't require it of your God's creation. So there are two options...
1) The universe is a product of its own creation.
2) God is a product of its own creation, and created the universe.
In either case you can't say where the energy and matter came from for creation, it's still an admitted mystery. But we know for a fact that the universe exists. The same can't be said of your God. Yet simply by believing in your God you admit to believing that an all powerful, all resourceful force can manifest itself without a source. Atheists acknowledge the same thing of the universe. They just don't have to add an extra entity that has no evidence of existence. So you say God was created by its own accord, yet can't prove God exists. They say the universe was created by its own accord, and can prove the universe exists. In either case you are still conceding that something can indeed be its own source of creation. You just allow it of something intangible. Atheists allow it of something tangible.
Rather than address the idea of rationality, Stuart's approach (a defence of Christianity) reminded me of Sye's debate (with Matt) where he declared "It is reasonable to believe that which is true". To be taken seriously, Stuart should avoid sounding like Sye Ten Bruggencate 🙂
Great to hear there are more debates in the future. While I have always appreciated Matt doing his thing with call-in shows, his points and strengths are better showcased in the more formal debate format.
I agree, Matt was razor sharp in this debate.
I agree, but Modern-Day debates is a dumpster fire. Nonexistent moderation, James stumbling over every single line, the comments filled with trolls… it’s a disaster.
More like "debates".There is very little actaul debate. Matt asks a question or raises an issue and there are no real substantive responses.
Matt is the debate goat imo.
I'm only 33 yrs old an seen all this..!!
I've seen 2 people RAISE from the dead after prayer in Jesus name! the 1st one was a electrocuted utility worker that fell out the sky bucket.. the 2nd was my own mom ! God showed me all this cuz he knew I'd tell !! I've seen someone go into the ER their whole right side was totally paralyzed she couldn't sit up or move at all!! the Dr did mri the Dr told her she had 2 blood clots in her brain and 2 clots in her stomach !! The Dr told us the bad news then he said that I should make arrangements with a nursing home !!!! I told him no.. !!!! I've never felt so desperate in my life!!!! I looked at her.. I said listen.. IM GONNA PRAY FOR YOU AND YOU WILL BE HEALED! I PRAYED FOR HER QND I SAID God heal her now!! You said u wouldn't give us anything we can't handle!! IN Jesus name amen!!! I LOOKED DOWN TO PICK MY PHONE UP OFF THE CHAIR AND WHEN I GLANCED BACK UP I SAW HER SUTTING STRAIGHT UP!!!! I SAID YOUR SITTING UP!! SHE SAID HEYYYYY!!! I AM !!!!!! I RAN OUT TO GET THE DR.. THE DR WALKED IN THE ROOM NONCHALANTLY.. WHEN HE SAW WHAT I WAS WITNESSING HE SAID " this is impossible" and walked out backwards AND SHAKING HIS HEAD NO... he ordered another mri every clot was GONE !!.. that same Dr never returned to the room! My grandma had 3 different types of cancer at once in her body.. She got a call saying she was cancer free after prayer! I've seen STAGE 4 CANCER DISAPPEAR in Jesus name ! I've seen my 2 family members that was completely paralyzed walk !!! in Jesus name and they walked normally for the rest of their lives !!!
I was baptized in the river in Jesus name and the holy spirit and I had a feeling that God wanted me to reach directly under my feet and grab a rock where I stood when I was being baptized.. and I pulled up the rock to look at it.. and it was a perfect fossil of a fish !!!! It had the eyes scales and all.. it's amazing that I was standing on top of a fossil rock fish while being baptized in water !!!! Absolutely amazing.. I'd love to show anyone if they wanted !
This is the truth..
aliens are demons..look up nephilim ! their the ones who built the prymids thats why they refuse to tell u how the pyramids was built! because if u knew the truth u would believe in Jesus! Fallen angel took alien knowledge from heaven to earth that's why u see alot of ancient technology artifacts on earth.. they were extremely smart.. brought amazing tech to earth.. the humans worshipped them as gods.. all the things u see around that's ancient formations around the world is made by fallen ones or the nephilim children..
Jesus is coming fast!!! we don't have much time.. if u believe in Jesus u are born again.. the holy spirit will guide u and change u.. its a gift from God !!! in Jesus name !! What ever happens to not take a chip in ur brain or forehead.. DO not take a chip in ur arm or hand..!!! AND STAY AWAY FROM VEXEINNS they might be apart of the mark.. idk yet.. butthe vexeinns might be the number of his name.. the number of a man.. just be safe stop vexienns !!!!! and do not let any human or ALIEN=DEMON deceive you !!!! It is written biblically !! A time is coming very soon !!!
ps I'm a sinner and struggle EVERYDAY.. EVERY MINUTE EVERY SECOND !!!!! IM NO WHERE NEARRRR PERFECT.. I GET ANGRY ALMOST DAILY.. I STRUGGLE WITH REFRAINING FROM WEED.. every single day is a fight because I absolutely HATE THIS LIFE.. I HATE THIS WORLD.. I HATE EVERY MOMENT THAT IM HERE !! BUT I KNOW ITS UP TO God !! And it's God's timing !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT BUT GOD CONVICTS OUR HEARTS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT SIN !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT.. AND MANY TIMES WE WIN AND MANY TIMES WE LOSE THE BATTLE OF SIN.. ITS DAILY !!!
REFRAIN FROM SIN YES!!! BUT IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPLETELY SINLESS NO !!!! BECAUSE EVERY SIN THAT U SURPRESS GOD REVEALS ANOTHER SIN THAT U HAVE TO WORK ON !!!! ULTIMATELY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS !!! THERES NOTHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES.. BUT ITS A PURE BLESSING FOR GODS CONVICTION AND A BLESSING TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT IT DAILY !
WHEN YOU PRAY .. PRAY WITH KNOWING!!! PRAY WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KNOWING THAT YOUR PRAYER IS ANSWERED BECAUSE U BELIEVE AND GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IT !!!! AMEN !!! Love one another like Jesus said.. be aware of sin.. ask for God to send discernment and wisdom to you in the last days !! ..
The fact that the Stuart couldn't stay on topic (is belief in Christianity rational) made it a bad debate, full stop. Matt stayed on topic and good for him.
It should be real easy to understand the difference between rationality and truth. At one point it was rational to believe the earth was flat but it HAS NEVER been true 🤷
" At one point it was rational to believe the earth was flat but it HAS NEVER been true " - I am pretty sure that they had sunset 2700 years ago. There is no explanation for sunset on a flat earth that conform to reality.
@@freddan6fly sure there is.
@@freddan6fly I’m pretty sure that from the limited perspective of 2700 years ago explaining a sunset is quite easy. It doesn’t fit what we (most of us) now know is reality
@Anon Ymous as if rationality isn’t arbitrarily axiomatic.
Exactly. If, unbeknownst to me, someone were to remove the spark-plugs from my car overnight, I would nevertheless have been rationally justified in believing that “tomorrow morning my car will start” when I went to sleep that night.
“Rationality” just has to do with whether one’s new beliefs logically follow from what one already knows. It’s about having _reasons;_ we just have to deal with the fact that sometimes it’s quite possible to have reasons to believe something that happens to be false.
It's only _before_ you become personally wholly invested in a particular religion (e.g., Christianity) that you have the luxury of feeling that you have nothing to lose if you examine it objectively. It's _after_ you become fully invested in it that you no longer have that luxury. At that point it's out of a sheer psychological necessity that you're being unconsciously selectively objective about your religion, accommodating only those facts about it that aren't inconvenient.
It's a phenomenon of dishonesty that Christians and Muslims alike are wholly oblivious to.
Unfortunately I have no reason to believe that an interminably sustained unconditional honesty is possible for even the best of us.
You are a great communicator, Matt. Love the channel!
I wonder what Stewart would think about a Muslim apologist using Stewart's arguments.
"Stuart wants justice, Islam calls for justice, therefore Islam is rational"
Obviously Stuart wouldn't accept this goofy argument yet he makes it himself.
I was really looking forward to this debate because Stuart is generally very charismatic and understanding in his debates, but he really shot himself in the foot multiple times during this debate by simply forgetting or refusing to remember to debate topic.
You crushed it in that debate Matt👍 Stuart couldn't address any of your points and arguments. I think he's actually not far off from being a non-believer, but due to his upbringing and how he still finds some of Christianity's claims attractive he's still not willing to let go on an emotional level.
Thats what i thought too. But i think Stuart has too much luggage loaded onto him. What i know of him, his family (Pastors son with a good relationship to his father) and his Job (Christian counselor) are closely tied to religion. Even if he fell off from christianity he should maybe better keep it to himself.
Has Stu kneckles done a similar post-mortem and resurrected himself from that evidenced crucifixion?
@@Maggisoo I agree with you. Being a preacher's kid myself, I cannot fathom the universe-shattering effect it would have on my father if he came to the realization that his entire life's work was based on falsehoods. It could possibly cause a crisis from which he literally could not recover.
Thanks for everything you do Matt. Been watching you since the beginning, you have helped me refine my arguments and thinking for over a decade
I don't believe ANYONE'S life is meaningless. Not even people I despise. When apologists make that assertion, my eyes roll so hard I fear they'll stay pointed towards the back of my head.
An objective meaning to someone's life, which is most often what they're talking about, doesn't exist.
@@amandak.4246
Similarly, I believe we are each free to find our own meaning for our own life, which is liberating.
Stuart and his dad need to step away from the debate arena. They simply are not equipped.
I think that your argument applies to most all apologists.
I've heard both you and AronRa talk about the importance of getting the definitions agreed upon before or at the beginning of debates. Many debates are ruined because of words being ambiguous.
Absolutely of CRITICAL importance.... sine qua non!
Often intentionally.
@@G_Demolished
True. Equivocation fallacies are popular with religious apologists. Faith is probably the most popular of all, being so central to religious epistemology, but fairly often we see other sloppy definitions or platitudes employed for equivocation. God is love, for example, is used to try to argue that because love is real, god must also be real.
Stuart and his father both argue like children. They have a childlike view of their own religion and a childlike understanding of what it means to not believe in what your daddy told you when you were young. Functionally, they are children.
Did you ever see the father/son wonder team in their debate vs Aron Ra and Tjump regarding the human soul? Man, Aron kept asking them the same question over and over because they refused to answer it.
Thank you for the example of “what evidence would convince you” with the court room/jury analogy! That was easy enough to understand that maybe a theist friend of mine will understand it.
This was yet another point I disagreed with Matt about. It's true, you can't directly ASK the jury in advance what will convince them.... but any good attorney, either prosecutor or defense... will have a pretty good idea of what will convince them _without_ having to ask, and they probably even know better than the jurors themselves what it is. It often has much more to do with factually irrelevant feelings than the evidence itself. It may be a necessary condition to build a solid case based on evidence, but it's not a sufficient condition, as a large chunk of what we believe is based on emotions, not on facts.
On the other hand, when you are facing a "moving goalpost" argument, as is typical when arguing about issues such as Anthropogenic Global Warming with AGW Denialists, or 9/11 with 9/11 "Truthers", or the 2020 election with election deniers, IT'S _not_ irrelevant to try to pin them down WHAT it would take to convince them that they are wrong. If they are honest enough to face this question honestly (I KNOW I just used "honest" twice in the same sentence ha-ha!), they might have to answer, "There is nothing you could possibly tell me or show me that would change my mind." This situation is possible because their denial of well-established facts and conclusions is not based on evidence in the first place, but on ideology..... notably INCLUDING a deep _a priori_ mistrust of the validity of any evidence that would disconfirm their beliefs. This is LITERALLY why facts are irrelevant in such arguments.
On the other hand, it MIGHT (even if the chances are small) induce them to actually think about what their beliefs are actually based on.
Thus, I found Matt's argument on this point a bit of a red herring.
I gather Matt's referring to an ideal honest scenario, not a political one.
@@patriklindholm7576 That may be, but the actual real world we live in, political and religious values lie at the core of many of our beliefs... These beliefs are often not supported by well defined, well-reasoned evidence. In fact, they are commonly founded on nothing more than negative affective polarization. (This is apparent in the comments section here, by the way.) This is a frequent theme in Matt's telephone encounters with callers who hold to a fundamental religious ideology as the foundation for their beliefs. Ultimately it's not a very strong foundation, but operationally, in the short term, it's what we must contend with in our society.
(P.S. I edited my previous comment slightly for clarity.)
@@MendTheWorld
I agree that there are times it is worth asking what it would get for someone to consider that their view might be mistaken. If they cannot think of anything, then there is not much point in trying to convince them, because they are probably too attached to the view.
@@JaniceLHz Thanks for your Reply.
It's a difficult issue to address, as it's very difficult to have a rational or productive conversation when participants are so strongly emotionally invested in their opinions. There _are_ some skills that can be learned that will increase the chances of a successful outcome, but it really takes training, practice, and an investment of time.
Thus, I agree with you that for most people in most circumstances, it probably would not be beneficial, but I'll stop short of making a broader general conclusion, because I think these kinds of conversations are absolutely critical for our future. 🙂
@Matt in many ways you're the best debater I've ever seen. What you may lack in knowledge on any given subject, you make up for with your epistemologically consistent understanding of logic & reason and your ability to engage and communicate so clearly. I'm glad to hear that you enjoy doing more debates. I thoroughly enjoy watching them and often re-watch them. I almost wish I had more substantive disagreements with you so I could call in and dispute you on something.
Thank you for your activism and the prolific content you produce. I wish some of my other favorite debaters like Sam Harris would do more debates.
I'm only 33 yrs old an seen all this..!!
I've seen 2 people RAISE from the dead after prayer in Jesus name! the 1st one was a electrocuted utility worker that fell out the sky bucket.. the 2nd was my own mom ! God showed me all this cuz he knew I'd tell !! I've seen someone go into the ER their whole right side was totally paralyzed she couldn't sit up or move at all!! the Dr did mri the Dr told her she had 2 blood clots in her brain and 2 clots in her stomach !! The Dr told us the bad news then he said that I should make arrangements with a nursing home !!!! I told him no.. !!!! I've never felt so desperate in my life!!!! I looked at her.. I said listen.. IM GONNA PRAY FOR YOU AND YOU WILL BE HEALED! I PRAYED FOR HER QND I SAID God heal her now!! You said u wouldn't give us anything we can't handle!! IN Jesus name amen!!! I LOOKED DOWN TO PICK MY PHONE UP OFF THE CHAIR AND WHEN I GLANCED BACK UP I SAW HER SUTTING STRAIGHT UP!!!! I SAID YOUR SITTING UP!! SHE SAID HEYYYYY!!! I AM !!!!!! I RAN OUT TO GET THE DR.. THE DR WALKED IN THE ROOM NONCHALANTLY.. WHEN HE SAW WHAT I WAS WITNESSING HE SAID " this is impossible" and walked out backwards AND SHAKING HIS HEAD NO... he ordered another mri every clot was GONE !!.. that same Dr never returned to the room! My grandma had 3 different types of cancer at once in her body.. She got a call saying she was cancer free after prayer! I've seen STAGE 4 CANCER DISAPPEAR in Jesus name ! I've seen my 2 family members that was completely paralyzed walk !!! in Jesus name and they walked normally for the rest of their lives !!!
I was baptized in the river in Jesus name and the holy spirit and I had a feeling that God wanted me to reach directly under my feet and grab a rock where I stood when I was being baptized.. and I pulled up the rock to look at it.. and it was a perfect fossil of a fish !!!! It had the eyes scales and all.. it's amazing that I was standing on top of a fossil rock fish while being baptized in water !!!! Absolutely amazing.. I'd love to show anyone if they wanted !
This is the truth..
aliens are demons..look up nephilim ! their the ones who built the prymids thats why they refuse to tell u how the pyramids was built! because if u knew the truth u would believe in Jesus! Fallen angel took alien knowledge from heaven to earth that's why u see alot of ancient technology artifacts on earth.. they were extremely smart.. brought amazing tech to earth.. the humans worshipped them as gods.. all the things u see around that's ancient formations around the world is made by fallen ones or the nephilim children..
Jesus is coming fast!!! we don't have much time.. if u believe in Jesus u are born again.. the holy spirit will guide u and change u.. its a gift from God !!! in Jesus name !! What ever happens to not take a chip in ur brain or forehead.. DO not take a chip in ur arm or hand..!!! AND STAY AWAY FROM VEXEINNS they might be apart of the mark.. idk yet.. butthe vexeinns might be the number of his name.. the number of a man.. just be safe stop vexienns !!!!! and do not let any human or ALIEN=DEMON deceive you !!!! It is written biblically !! A time is coming very soon !!!
ps I'm a sinner and struggle EVERYDAY.. EVERY MINUTE EVERY SECOND !!!!! IM NO WHERE NEARRRR PERFECT.. I GET ANGRY ALMOST DAILY.. I STRUGGLE WITH REFRAINING FROM WEED.. every single day is a fight because I absolutely HATE THIS LIFE.. I HATE THIS WORLD.. I HATE EVERY MOMENT THAT IM HERE !! BUT I KNOW ITS UP TO God !! And it's God's timing !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT BUT GOD CONVICTS OUR HEARTS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT SIN !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT.. AND MANY TIMES WE WIN AND MANY TIMES WE LOSE THE BATTLE OF SIN.. ITS DAILY !!!
REFRAIN FROM SIN YES!!! BUT IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPLETELY SINLESS NO !!!! BECAUSE EVERY SIN THAT U SURPRESS GOD REVEALS ANOTHER SIN THAT U HAVE TO WORK ON !!!! ULTIMATELY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS !!! THERES NOTHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES.. BUT ITS A PURE BLESSING FOR GODS CONVICTION AND A BLESSING TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT IT DAILY !
WHEN YOU PRAY .. PRAY WITH KNOWING!!! PRAY WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KNOWING THAT YOUR PRAYER IS ANSWERED BECAUSE U BELIEVE AND GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IT !!!! AMEN !!! Love one another like Jesus said.. be aware of sin.. ask for God to send discernment and wisdom to you in the last days !! ..
@@GodHelpUsNow777 what the heck is a vexeinn?
@@GodHelpUsNow777 More bullshit.
@godhelpus1675 imagine typing this mess out and thinking to yourself "this will convince people".
@@GodHelpUsNow777 god help us indeed! Please, if there is a god, deliver is from "God help us".
I died laughing when you said, "I'm going to try to do this as nice as possible."
While I was listening to Stuart speak I just kept thinking, 'Matt is about to brutalize this guy.'
It’s good that you came back from your near death experience 😊
I really love these reviews.
The content is very entertaining as usual ....
Thanks
Stuart's approach obviously was just to score points among peers alike, not to present good reasons and least of all proper evidence.
Strangely enough, it should be easy to argue that for early Christianity, belief _was_ rational. They had no access to science, no idea of the scientific method, and so forth, and the existence of gods was almost universally accepted. That all changed, of course, so today, it is no longer rational.
The question of whether it was rational to believe in supernatural stuff in early Christian times is difficult. There had been people, notably Epicurus and Lucretius, who new better, and they were far from alone.
An interesting question worthy of some consideration.
It was a really good debate Matt.
I love hearing the simplicity of how you break things down, using pure sensible logic.
Like I used to enjoy listening to Hitchens back in the day, but I always found that he waffled and pre-ambled waaaay too much. You could see he enjoyed the theatre of the debates rather than the objective of proving who’s correct and who isn’t.
Stay healthy Matt ✌️
I'm only 33 yrs old an seen all this..!!
I've seen 2 people RAISE from the dead after prayer in Jesus name! the 1st one was a electrocuted utility worker that fell out the sky bucket.. the 2nd was my own mom ! God showed me all this cuz he knew I'd tell !! I've seen someone go into the ER their whole right side was totally paralyzed she couldn't sit up or move at all!! the Dr did mri the Dr told her she had 2 blood clots in her brain and 2 clots in her stomach !! The Dr told us the bad news then he said that I should make arrangements with a nursing home !!!! I told him no.. !!!! I've never felt so desperate in my life!!!! I looked at her.. I said listen.. IM GONNA PRAY FOR YOU AND YOU WILL BE HEALED! I PRAYED FOR HER QND I SAID God heal her now!! You said u wouldn't give us anything we can't handle!! IN Jesus name amen!!! I LOOKED DOWN TO PICK MY PHONE UP OFF THE CHAIR AND WHEN I GLANCED BACK UP I SAW HER SUTTING STRAIGHT UP!!!! I SAID YOUR SITTING UP!! SHE SAID HEYYYYY!!! I AM !!!!!! I RAN OUT TO GET THE DR.. THE DR WALKED IN THE ROOM NONCHALANTLY.. WHEN HE SAW WHAT I WAS WITNESSING HE SAID " this is impossible" and walked out backwards AND SHAKING HIS HEAD NO... he ordered another mri every clot was GONE !!.. that same Dr never returned to the room! My grandma had 3 different types of cancer at once in her body.. She got a call saying she was cancer free after prayer! I've seen STAGE 4 CANCER DISAPPEAR in Jesus name ! I've seen my 2 family members that was completely paralyzed walk !!! in Jesus name and they walked normally for the rest of their lives !!!
I was baptized in the river in Jesus name and the holy spirit and I had a feeling that God wanted me to reach directly under my feet and grab a rock where I stood when I was being baptized.. and I pulled up the rock to look at it.. and it was a perfect fossil of a fish !!!! It had the eyes scales and all.. it's amazing that I was standing on top of a fossil rock fish while being baptized in water !!!! Absolutely amazing.. I'd love to show anyone if they wanted !
This is the truth..
aliens are demons..look up nephilim ! their the ones who built the prymids thats why they refuse to tell u how the pyramids was built! because if u knew the truth u would believe in Jesus! Fallen angel took alien knowledge from heaven to earth that's why u see alot of ancient technology artifacts on earth.. they were extremely smart.. brought amazing tech to earth.. the humans worshipped them as gods.. all the things u see around that's ancient formations around the world is made by fallen ones or the nephilim children..
Jesus is coming fast!!! we don't have much time.. if u believe in Jesus u are born again.. the holy spirit will guide u and change u.. its a gift from God !!! in Jesus name !! What ever happens to not take a chip in ur brain or forehead.. DO not take a chip in ur arm or hand..!!! AND STAY AWAY FROM VEXEINNS they might be apart of the mark.. idk yet.. butthe vexeinns might be the number of his name.. the number of a man.. just be safe stop vexienns !!!!! and do not let any human or ALIEN=DEMON deceive you !!!! It is written biblically !! A time is coming very soon !!!
ps I'm a sinner and struggle EVERYDAY.. EVERY MINUTE EVERY SECOND !!!!! IM NO WHERE NEARRRR PERFECT.. I GET ANGRY ALMOST DAILY.. I STRUGGLE WITH REFRAINING FROM WEED.. every single day is a fight because I absolutely HATE THIS LIFE.. I HATE THIS WORLD.. I HATE EVERY MOMENT THAT IM HERE !! BUT I KNOW ITS UP TO God !! And it's God's timing !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT BUT GOD CONVICTS OUR HEARTS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT SIN !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT.. AND MANY TIMES WE WIN AND MANY TIMES WE LOSE THE BATTLE OF SIN.. ITS DAILY !!!
REFRAIN FROM SIN YES!!! BUT IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPLETELY SINLESS NO !!!! BECAUSE EVERY SIN THAT U SURPRESS GOD REVEALS ANOTHER SIN THAT U HAVE TO WORK ON !!!! ULTIMATELY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS !!! THERES NOTHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES.. BUT ITS A PURE BLESSING FOR GODS CONVICTION AND A BLESSING TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT IT DAILY !
WHEN YOU PRAY .. PRAY WITH KNOWING!!! PRAY WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KNOWING THAT YOUR PRAYER IS ANSWERED BECAUSE U BELIEVE AND GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IT !!!! AMEN !!! Love one another like Jesus said.. be aware of sin.. ask for God to send discernment and wisdom to you in the last days !! ..
@@GodHelpUsNow777
TROLL ALERT
- JUST LYING FOR THIER WEAK ARSE GOD -
@@GodHelpUsNow777
What is your goal with these comments?
Is it to turn people to Jesus?
@@GodHelpUsNow777 nothing you just said is true.
The moderator needs to call out debaters when the debaters get personal or condescending or get too far off topic. I thought Stuart was in way over his head, and it seemed to me he knew it, so he disguised this with total bullshit.
Just here to let you know I always love the videos you make here.
If they really care about evidence, why join the faith team?
Matt, thankyou for posting these!👍💖💙🥰✌
This is a very precise position!
ANY time a theist starts in with the "You think this or that," they have already given up... AND they show how arguing for a god character REQUIRES one to lie about almost everything.
Any time an atheist opens their mouth they have a God. Because they are real life creatures of their God.
@Magicus Chemicus Daddyus Apply YOUR nonsense to EVERY other pretend god character since it "proves" them exactly as much as it "proves" yours... which, of course, is never.
Did you have to work hard to be a credulous idiot or did it come natural.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
Affirming the Consequent isn't a valid argument, it's a fallacy. Try again, loser.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature well that's just silly. Completely meaningless, baseless assertion.
As in so often the case with these debates, this was a frustrating one for me. It was particularly frustrating that Stuart did not seem to comprehend at all that it's not up to you come up with some hypothetical evidence for his beliefs. His continued use of the phrase, "Strict Empiricism", as if your level of skepticism, or your threshold for belief/acceptance of a claim(which again, he doesn't even know what that is, as was just mentioned) was unreasonably high was just silly.
But the way he kept saying things like, "oh sure Matt, let me just "demand" that God/Jesus appear next to me in order to appease you" showed a clear disconnect or misunderstanding on his part that seemed to be the theme of the debate on his side. He just didn't get that (as you said) it's not your fault that Stuart can't do that, or that Jesus won't do that. That it's not your fault that you haven't had the same experiences as he has, or that God hasn't/won't reveal Himself to you(and everyone else.)
And like always, the conflation between God revealing himself, and God "compelling" or "forcing" you to love him, or have a relationship with him. As if introducing yourself to a girl you like is sexual assault, or slavery, or that you're brainwashing her and tricking her into loving you.
Having blind faith in a religion is irrational. Once you start to critically examine your religion, it all falls apart, and that's why you need the faith absent of rationality.
I didn’t think I would’ve called myself a prophet at any point in my life…. But the amount of times I predicted what Stuart would say is honestly mind boggling
I'm only 33 yrs old an seen all this..!!
I've seen 2 people RAISE from the dead after prayer in Jesus name! the 1st one was a electrocuted utility worker that fell out the sky bucket.. the 2nd was my own mom ! God showed me all this cuz he knew I'd tell !! I've seen someone go into the ER their whole right side was totally paralyzed she couldn't sit up or move at all!! the Dr did mri the Dr told her she had 2 blood clots in her brain and 2 clots in her stomach !! The Dr told us the bad news then he said that I should make arrangements with a nursing home !!!! I told him no.. !!!! I've never felt so desperate in my life!!!! I looked at her.. I said listen.. IM GONNA PRAY FOR YOU AND YOU WILL BE HEALED! I PRAYED FOR HER QND I SAID God heal her now!! You said u wouldn't give us anything we can't handle!! IN Jesus name amen!!! I LOOKED DOWN TO PICK MY PHONE UP OFF THE CHAIR AND WHEN I GLANCED BACK UP I SAW HER SUTTING STRAIGHT UP!!!! I SAID YOUR SITTING UP!! SHE SAID HEYYYYY!!! I AM !!!!!! I RAN OUT TO GET THE DR.. THE DR WALKED IN THE ROOM NONCHALANTLY.. WHEN HE SAW WHAT I WAS WITNESSING HE SAID " this is impossible" and walked out backwards AND SHAKING HIS HEAD NO... he ordered another mri every clot was GONE !!.. that same Dr never returned to the room! My grandma had 3 different types of cancer at once in her body.. She got a call saying she was cancer free after prayer! I've seen STAGE 4 CANCER DISAPPEAR in Jesus name ! I've seen my 2 family members that was completely paralyzed walk !!! in Jesus name and they walked normally for the rest of their lives !!!
I was baptized in the river in Jesus name and the holy spirit and I had a feeling that God wanted me to reach directly under my feet and grab a rock where I stood when I was being baptized.. and I pulled up the rock to look at it.. and it was a perfect fossil of a fish !!!! It had the eyes scales and all.. it's amazing that I was standing on top of a fossil rock fish while being baptized in water !!!! Absolutely amazing.. I'd love to show anyone if they wanted !
This is the truth..
aliens are demons..look up nephilim ! their the ones who built the prymids thats why they refuse to tell u how the pyramids was built! because if u knew the truth u would believe in Jesus! Fallen angel took alien knowledge from heaven to earth that's why u see alot of ancient technology artifacts on earth.. they were extremely smart.. brought amazing tech to earth.. the humans worshipped them as gods.. all the things u see around that's ancient formations around the world is made by fallen ones or the nephilim children..
Jesus is coming fast!!! we don't have much time.. if u believe in Jesus u are born again.. the holy spirit will guide u and change u.. its a gift from God !!! in Jesus name !! What ever happens to not take a chip in ur brain or forehead.. DO not take a chip in ur arm or hand..!!! AND STAY AWAY FROM VEXEINNS they might be apart of the mark.. idk yet.. butthe vexeinns might be the number of his name.. the number of a man.. just be safe stop vexienns !!!!! and do not let any human or ALIEN=DEMON deceive you !!!! It is written biblically !! A time is coming very soon !!!
ps I'm a sinner and struggle EVERYDAY.. EVERY MINUTE EVERY SECOND !!!!! IM NO WHERE NEARRRR PERFECT.. I GET ANGRY ALMOST DAILY.. I STRUGGLE WITH REFRAINING FROM WEED.. every single day is a fight because I absolutely HATE THIS LIFE.. I HATE THIS WORLD.. I HATE EVERY MOMENT THAT IM HERE !! BUT I KNOW ITS UP TO God !! And it's God's timing !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT BUT GOD CONVICTS OUR HEARTS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT SIN !!! WE CANT BE PERFECT.. AND MANY TIMES WE WIN AND MANY TIMES WE LOSE THE BATTLE OF SIN.. ITS DAILY !!!
REFRAIN FROM SIN YES!!! BUT IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPLETELY SINLESS NO !!!! BECAUSE EVERY SIN THAT U SURPRESS GOD REVEALS ANOTHER SIN THAT U HAVE TO WORK ON !!!! ULTIMATELY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS !!! THERES NOTHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES.. BUT ITS A PURE BLESSING FOR GODS CONVICTION AND A BLESSING TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT IT DAILY !
WHEN YOU PRAY .. PRAY WITH KNOWING!!! PRAY WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KNOWING THAT YOUR PRAYER IS ANSWERED BECAUSE U BELIEVE AND GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IT !!!! AMEN !!! Love one another like Jesus said.. be aware of sin.. ask for God to send discernment and wisdom to you in the last days !! ..
@@GodHelpUsNow777 is don’t believe a damn thing you just said🤣🤣
"called myself" ... ?
@@bellezavudd I meant to put “I would’ve called myself a prophet”
That’s all you need to call yourself a prophet and even less for other people to do so
I wonder, Matt, when Christians question you on what evidence is required, perhaps a response would be to ask them what evidence THEY would require from a Muslim to convince them of the truth of Islam. Or, in keeping with the subject matter, do they think Islam is rational, and then why or why not?
Hard to debate someone when they use the claim as evidence. They really don't understand that the bible is the claim! It's frustrating!
Perhaps an ironic example would help them grasp this.
The Iliad is the inerrant, perfect, literally true, divinely inspired word of our Lord Zeus. The Iliad says it, I believe it, that settles it.
@@miskatonic_alumni That might be worth trying. Though I've tried it with examples such as the Bhagavad Gita, and had no luck.
How cute you are evidence of God asking for evidence of God. Sit the 👇
@@miskatonic_alumni perhaps you are an actual creature of your God and whining like a little b about it will not change that.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature you can't be serious with that argument!?
Seems to me maybe, when some asks, "What kind of evidence you want?" The answer first should be, let's start with any. One thing you can submit as evidence.
That's when they leap to anecdotal evidence.
@@fleabitz1474 or "Look at the trees . . . "
A good response is "What evidence convinced YOU?"
This has two valuable effects. One is that it puts the burden of proof where it belongs: on the person making the claim. They claim to know something. Why are they convinced it's true? It's a question that invites an honest answer.
The other effect is secondary but also useful. The claimant can supply any evidence they see fit, honest or otherwise. But in doing so they are disclosing something about themselves: that they would settle for this standard of evidence. This can, and often does, lead to embarrassment, but only if the evidence is weak. If it's good evidence, we're obliged to concede that the claimant would be reasonable to be convinced by it.
There's a third effect that might be regarded as valuable also. If the claim is really just a statement of personal preference, asking for justification is a gentle way of helping the claimant to see that others might have different but equally legitimate preferences. If someone says "Vanilla ice cream is the best!" then rather than just pointing out that it's just their opinion, asking for evidence puts the engagement on an more objective footing. (I know, this is not a very strong advantage, and it works best with children rather than adults, but I offer it for completeness.)
@@starfishsystems I hear what you're saying but I think the problem is that for a true believer God is a foundational truth, everywhere and obvious, as obvious as air is to us. Asking for evidence comes across to them as ridiculous. Nobody ever had to convince them that air is real, same with God. I think this is one reason it's so hard to get a straight answer out of them because they are not operating on the level of logic in any way. I'm convinced these conversations are impossible. You can see it in these debates, how it's absolutely impossible to get rational discourse out of them, how their brains can't process the words of even a clear communicator like Matt. It's freaky, to be honest.
I've seen Stuart debate quite a few people and he never fails to reach for such desperately absurd arguments to defend Christianity. It's like he is embarrassed by his own position but feels he has to make an effort out of loyalty (probably to his dad). He's a genuinely nice guy who has found himself on the wrong side of history and philosophy.
He is still better than his father, even at debating! And that is saying something.
Cliff used to have this routine of impersonating a child with cerebral palsy converting to Christianity. Complete with stuttering, and “doing a voice”.
He did this not once but several times, it was a recurring feature when he preached at universities and even in debates.
@@Nocturnalux
oof - that sounds very dodgy. Part of me wants to see his performance just to see how bad taste it is.
I've seen the both of them take on Josh Bowen and Skylar Fiction on Modern Day Debates - and yeah I fully agree, Cliff is waaaay worse. He didn't resort to anything liek you described, but you could tell that Stuart was trying to reign him in a bit.
@@bengreen171 I’ve noticed Stuart reigning in his father as well. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he retired his father’s “routine” or at least suggested it.
I haven’t seen any of Cliffe’s recent outreach so he may very well have stopped doing it. I am almost certain you can find it online but it’d take some digging.
I remember being baffled by how utterly awful it was.
@@Nocturnalux
it surely takes a particular kind of naivity to not think of how that would look. I mean, we've all done and said things that we didn't think would cause offence and then realised immediately how wrong we were - but to do it once and then think - yeah, that went well! Only someone with absolutely zero self awareness could do that....oh yeah, we're talking about apologists, aren't we.
@@bengreen171 I’ve tried looking for it but it’s not part of a title, I’d probably have to go through his old catalogue of videos to find it.
I know he did it on a debate, that may be easier to find.
But yes, it’s difficult to see how anyone could have done this as a routine without realizing how awful it comes across. I also wonder if this did not turn off people who might otherwise have been receptive to his message.
Stuart knows better. But he does come across as being embarrassed of his beliefs.
EDIT: Found it! Oh my god. It is worse than I thought. Look for “Cliff Knechtle debate”, first result, against Matt. It is in Cliffe’s opening.
My thought is that you're expecting someone who is a theist to come and be rational and value evidence based propositions, but if they were capable of being rational and if they valued evidence they wouldn't be a theist.
As soon as I watched the debate, I was thinking "Matt DillahunTAY's gonna have a field day with the debate review". Stuart's a nice guy, but wow did he fail to present anything approaching a case for why belief in God is rational.
Likely for the same reason that you wouldn't be able to provide much if any tangible evidence, proof or reason to show that belief in a flying spaghetti monster of death is rational?
@@Bluebloods7 Which is why NO ONE believes FSM is real.
They present a straw man of your position even though you are there because they know when your time comes you will spend time correcting this which takes time away from you destroying their other bad arguments. If you don't address it, the audience will interpret what they said was true. If their position was rational they would study the topic, not their opponent.
Fine form, Matt. Miss ya at the AXP. It's not the same without you.
Stuart is smug and self-satisfied. His dad is scarily one track.
That debate was incredibly frustrating and even though you say Stuart is a nice guy he gives off the impression that he'll smile on your face and stab you in the back. He smiled ear to ear while making assumptions and accusations about you and refused to discuss the topic at hand and made a point to drag you down rather than defend his position.
This debate was hard to watch
Shortest, and most honest answer ......... HELL NO !!!
Being BRAINWASHED is NEVER rational !
Reason requires methodology, faith/mysticism provides no methodology. That's what it all boils down to.
Here's an example of a truth that would have been irrational to believe.
Einstein's Relativity equations for Gravity has always been more true than Newton's equations.
But when Newton formulated his equations, it would have been irrational to believe that Einstein's equations were true. There would have been no evidence to support the more complex equations and no way to test them.
These apologists are never talking to you. They are talking to their core audience. It's all a show. Any freethinker wishing to debate should be aware of this.
Re: "what evidence would convince you?" it might speed things up to say "it depends on which version of the god of Christianity you're trying to prove". not to mention it's a good reminder that like atheism, Christianity is not a monoculture of people in perfect agreement.
Matt your audio is way too low,it's a struggle to hear the greatness.
Stuart did nothing to either define, "rational" or present the case for why Xianity is so. He made a bunch of assertions and pronounced Matt's last name strangely - "dill-uh-hun-TAY." In the back and forth, he kept saying, "Well, Matt thinks [strawman]" or "Matt would say, '[strawman]'" which was really fucking weird because Matt was right fucking there. What a weird debate.
I like Matt and I miss Tracie Harris. Anyone knows why Tracie isn’t pursuing her own Athiest podcast, tik tok or TH-cam channel? I know she has another kind of TH-cam channel, but it’s not an Athiest channel. She is greatly missed. I love listening to Matt, and I miss Tracie.
Same with Jeff D. He was very good when paired with Matt. I wonder if he does this stuff on TH-cam after he stopped doing the atheist experience.
Does anybody else always have to crank up these videos to hear properly or is it just me? Just saying in case its an issue!
"convinced" vs "should be or have a reason to be convinced" would most definitely be two different things.
Another bizzare thing I heard him say quickly in regards to (possibly?) the resurrection, was that, "if any two historical sources agree on something it's taken as 'absolutely true' that it happened, yet for(whatever claim he was referring to) we've got 7."
Huh? Any two historical sources agree on something and we consider it "absolutely true"?! Who the hell does that?
But more importantly(and I can't imagine that Stuart hasn't at least heard this already), there is a massive difference between two historical sources referring to a particular person or place or event and historians tentatively "assuming" it is true/real, and two or more sources making a supernatural, religious claim in religious texts/scripture.
As for "how quickly Christianity spread", you could just as easily point to Mormonism, or Scientology, or perhaps better yet, the many religious/cult leaders, such as some of the people who claim to be the second coming of Jesus, that are still alive today, whom you could actually go and speak to, and who have hundreds of thousands if not _millions_ of followers who will (I assume)honestly and sincerely swear to observing him perform miracles, healings, the feelings they get around him or while hearing him speaks the prayers they've had answered, etc. Yet I'm assuming Stuart would not accept that this means he's the actual messiah. In fact, I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't even consider. He certainly wouldn't fly down to South America(or wherever) and meet the man, and find out for himself whether or not he's Jesus. Yet he expects us to just have faith that some random guy 2000 years ago did the things claimed in the texts written about him, from people who weren't only not eye-witnesses to these miracles, but who were writing many decades after he died, and likely never even met him.
It's quite apparent that most people confuse rationality with rationalization. They are not remotely the same thing. The latter is what happens when you want to find reasons to allow you to believe whatever you want to believe; the former is what happens when you want to know the truth and follow the evidence wherever it goes regardless of what you feel about it. If you're doing it right, it should sometimes lead you to believe things you'd rather not be true.
Been waiting for this.
Defending Christianity requires a certain amount of dishonesty
Chat is generally poisonous. I stay away. Comments are not much better but, it's slower at least.
I was watching an Aron Ra debate on that channel the other day. There was a lull in the action where his opponent was having technical difficulties and while waiting he was reading the chat. He says something along the lines of "wow, I really shouldn't read the chat, those people hate me! I can't help that I look like a Disney villan, it doesn't actually mean I'm evil".
As one of those aforementioned chat trolls, there's a very high possibility I called you a Nazi in the chat. But in that case, there's a 100% certainty I was joking/ trolling and satirizing dumb theists. Keep up the great work!
"Well, it's in the Bible, so it must be true"
"Well, it's in Mein Kampf, so it must be true"
"Well, it's in the Communist Manifesto, so it must be true"
Whenever I hear "what would it take for me to convince you?" I always want to respond with "what would it take for me to con you?" or "what would it take for me to convince you to give me your money, because I want it?"
The point of that response isn't "lol, religions are cons!" but rather "if the same line of reasoning could lead you to both a religion and a con, then would it not stand to reason that is a bad line of reasoning?"
You made a comment something like “One is not rational”, and I just wanted to say that you’re most certainly wrong. One can be represented as a fraction, therefore it is indeed rational. Checkmate pythagoreans!
Jokes aside, great debate, I enjoyed it a lot as I do with pretty much everything you’ve put out for the last…well 10 years or so since I first saw your stuff.
*How can I know the difference ?* _"How can you" ?_ (fact & fiction)
*How could a Christian possibly hope to, **_tell the difference between their God,_** and a super intelligent **_"alien con-man"_** ,*
*that could **_exactly mimic everything that they believe their God can do_** ?*
Been looking forward to this video...
I play drums in a church ❤ we are human and humans should have nothing divided in religion from each of us.
Here's the problem...there is no "debate". There is fact and fiction, logic and gullibility, reality and fantasy, intelligence and ignorance. There is no actual debate.
It's like when I see a "flat-earth debate" pop up on my feed. There is no flat-earth debate. There's one side presenting an objectively correct version of reality and one side playing make-believe.
Thank you, Mr DillahuntAY!
Reason is the faculty that perceives, identifies, and integrates the material given in sense-perception.
No, you've described basic cognition. Any sensing organism can be said to do this.
Reason is a particular cognitive exercise which results from conscious practice and application of a general set of inferential RULES to specific PROPOSITIONS. With sufficient practice, much of this process becomes unconscious, but is always available to conscious validation.
@@starfishsystems I don’t see where we disagree. Reason consists of the evidence of the senses, concepts, and logic. The identification part requires conceptualization and the integration part requires logic, neither of which are operations performed by a consciousness limited to the perceptual level. I agree that the more proficient you become at any skill the more automatized it becomes. That’s why my experience of driving a car at my current age is vastly different from when I was learning to drive and hadn’t automatized the skill.
You have more patience than I do if you bear no ill will towards Stewart after that debate, because I would have called him a child to his face based on the way he was acting.
His mannerisms were indistinguishable from those of a toddler, snickering and fidgeting and becoming emotional for no real reason.
Someone in the comments has suggested he had sniffed coke. After reading quite a few remarks on his behavior I am inclined to think they might be on to something.
I find debates with religious people infuriating, and tedious, so I can’t think Matt enough for these summaries, they’re honestly better than watching the actual proceedings
I have spent a lot of time fighting those trolls in the chat moderating for MDD. It frustrated me to no end.
The volume was a bit low on this. I could reasonably hear it with my bluetooth turned all the way up.
As a dismissive oversimplification, one need only quote John 20:29: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
Christianity is enough about the belief in that for which there is insufficient evidence, in order to be blessed, that belief in its rationality should be seriously doubted. Or someone should make a much more convincing argument for an epistemology that does not require evidence. The most convincing argument I've heard for such an epistemology is, "you don't want to go to hell, do you?" Doesn't convince me, but it works on many others.
I got a “Turning Point USA” advertisement on this video.
Stuart is a waste of time but at least you got paid to “debate” that dishonest interlocutor
and I’m sure you’ll keep “debating” these dishonest “believers”.
Me thinks the atheist vs. theist debate scene is just another way to make money
Christianity possibly being internally consistent? How could anyone think that? The very core of christianity is profoundly incoherent, it is manifestly irrational. There is the idea of Jesus dying for our sins, that he atoned for our sins. What? Who needed to be appeased? How does Jesus dying do this appeasing? If it was daddy god, then why force itself/Jesus/its only begotten son, which is obviously utterly incoherent in more than one way, to turn itself into a meat sack and die horribly before changing its mind? And the answer has to involve the Trinity, which is absolutely incoherent on its own. It also has to involve something along the lies of original sin, or that we're born with a 'sin nature', which entail all sorts of nonsense like implying Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden were real, or that god made us so it made us to have this sin nature. There is so much more that could be brought up, but it's clear the religion is simply incoherent, I don't know of a better word for this. And as to some kind of internal consistency? If any of this crap was true, it would be quite clear that this omnibenevolent thing was truly a monster, demanding a blood sacrifice from its 'son' before changing its mind about ???, condemning all of humanity to infinite punishment due to A&E and the tree of oh fuck it, it's just too damn absurd. I challenge anyone to explain all of this in a way that isn't laughably ridiculous and obviously so.
Sure it is. As long as you redefine rational to the opposite of its current meaning.
I watched the debate. Yah,,... when he couldn't defend Christianity rationally he started fishing for ways to trip you up or distract with his psychotherapy tactics. So lame. Trying to play on emotions. Well, it only reveals defeat and the real reason they are believers.... emotions. .
It is annoying that people try to put things in your mouth, "words" are no exception...
It’s irrational to embellish what you believe will happen after death so much that you totally forget to live. Sometimes I think that theists believe that life is the organic process your body undergoes… Life is what you do in between periods of not existing. Use it well.
Stuart presented absolutely nothing new since the last time I had saw him debate. Matt could sit there the entire time like a potted plant and still 'win' the debate because apologists are almost always so far off the mark they defeat themselves by failing to address the topic or present any evidence whatsoever
I was talking with a theist who felt that a particular argument was evidence for God's existence. I contested premise #5. What do y'all think of the argument?
1. The things from our experience are composite.
2. A composite exists at any moment only insofar as its parts are combined at that moment.
3. This composition of parts requires a concurrent cause.
C1: So, any composite has a cause of its existence at any moment it exists.
C2: So, each of the things of our experience must have a cause at any moment it exists.
4. If the cause of a composite thing's existence at any moment is itself composite, then it will in turn require a cause of its own existence at any moment.
5. The regress of causes this entails is hierarchical in nature, and such a regress must have a first member.
6. Only something absolutely simple or noncomposite could be the first member of such a series.
C3: Therefore, the existence of the things of our experience presupposes an absolutely simple or noncomposite cause.
7. In order for there to be more than one absolutely simple or noncomposite cause, there must be some differentiating feature that the others lack.
8. But for a cause to have such a feature would be for it to have parts, in which case it would not really be simple or noncomposite.
C4. Therefore, no absolutely simple or noncomposite cause can have such a differentiating feature.
C5. Therefore, there cannot be more than one absolutely simple or noncomposite cause.
C6. Therefore, there exists a cause of the existence of the things of our experience which is absolutely simple or noncomposite, and utterly one and unique.
9. If the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause we’re changeable, then it would have parts which it gains or loses-which, being simple or noncomposite, it does not have.
C7. Therefore, the simple or noncomposite cause is changeless or immutable.
10. If the simple or noncomposite cause had a beginning or an end, it would have parts which could either be combined or broken apart.
C8. Therefore, since it has no such parts, the absolutely simple cause is beginningless and endless.
11. Whatever is immutable, beginningless, and endless is eternal.
C9. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause is eternal.
12. Everything is either a mind, a mental content, a physical entity, or an abstract entity.
13. An abstract entity is causally inert.
C10. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause, since it is not causally inert, is not an abstract entity.
14. A physical entity has parts and is changeable.
C11. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause, since it has no parts and is changeless, is not a physical entity.
15. A mental content presupposes the existence of a mind, and so cannot be the ultimate cause of anything.
C12. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause cannot be a mental content.
C13. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause must be a mind.
16. Since the absolutely simple cause is unique, everything other than it is composite.
17. Every composite has the absolutely simple cause as its ultimate cause.
C14. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause is the ultimate cause of everything other than itself.
18. If the absolutely simple cause had potentialities as well as actualities, it would have parts.
C15. Therefore, since it has no parts, it must have no potentialities but be purely actual.
19. If a purely actual cause were imperfect in any way, it would have some unactualized potential, which being purely actual, it does not have.
C16. Therefore, a purely actual cause is perfect.
20. For something to be less than fully good is for it to have a privation-that is, to fail to actualize some feature proper to it.
21. A purely actual cause, being purely actual, can have no such privation.
C17. Therefore, a purely actual cause is fully good.
22. To have power entails being able to actualize potentials.
23. Any potential that is actualized is either actualized by a purely actual cause or by a series of actual causes which terminates in a purely actual cause.
C18. Therefore, all power derives from a purely actual cause.
24. But to be that from which all power derives is to be omnipotent.
C19. Therefore, a purely actual cause is omnipotent.
25. Whatever is in an effect is in its cause in some way, whether formally, virtually, or eminently.
26. A purely actual cause is the cause of all things.
C20. Therefore, the forms or patterns manifest in all things it causes must in some way be in a purely actual cause.
27. These forms or patterns can exist either in the concrete way in which they exist in individual particular things, or in the abstract way in which they exist in the thoughts of an intellect.
28. They cannot exist in a purely actual cause in the same way they exist in individual particular things.
C21. Therefore, they must exist in a purely actual cause in the abstract way in which they exist in the thoughts of an intellect
C22. Therefore, a purely actual cause has intellect or intelligence.
29. Since it is the forms and patterns of all things that are in the thoughts of this intellect, there is nothing that is outside the range of those thoughts.
30. For there to be nothing outside for range of something’s thoughts is for that thing to be omniscient.
C23. Therefore, a purely actual cause is omniscient.
31. The absolutely simple cause of the existence of things other than itself is a purely actual cause.
C24. Therefore, the absolutely simple cause has all of the aforementioned attributes of a purely actual cause.
C25. Therefore, there exists an ultimate cause of everything other than itself that is absolutely simple, unique, immutable, eternal, immaterial, a mind or intellect, purely actual, perfect, fully good, omnipotent, and omniscient.
32. But for there to exist such a thing is just what it is for God to exist.
C26. Therefore, God exists.
Honestly, this is just the Kalam Cosmological Argument, expanded. Premises 1-3 is "Everything which exists has a cause". Premise 4 is "The universe exists". Premise 5 is "Therefore the universe had a cause". Premises 6-32 are the traditional "Let's deduce that the cause of the universe is our god" exercises that follow the Kalam Cosmological Argument.
*Specific criticisms:*
I contest premise 1. I cannot definitively say that everything from my experience is a composite of other things. I am familiar with photons, but I don't believe there is anything of which photons are made.
I contest premise 5. Retroactive causality has not been proven impossible and, as I currently understand it, is proposed as a possible explanation for some quantum phenomena. Retrocausality would allow for an infinite loop of causation without need for a terminating case.
I contest premise 8. A thing having a property does not mean that it has parts.
I contest premise 10. A thing coming into existence or ceasing to be does not imply that it has parts. Photons are a great example, as they come to be and cease to be, yet are themselves simple.
I contest premise 12. A mind is an activity performed by a physical object, namely a brain. It is not a thing in itself. The same goes for abstract entities and mental content. They exist inside brains as a pattern of neurons.
I contest premise 14. Again, photons are physical phenomena, yet simple.
I contest premise 18. The potential for a thing to change does not imply parts.
Premise 19 is a case of the equivocation fallacy. Unactualized potential does not equate to imperfection. In fact, the concept of "perfection" is a purely subjective statement as regards a specific goal or use case. The perfect pizza differs from person to person. The perfect tool for the job is different between jobs and changes as technology improves.
Premise 20 is another case of equivocation. "Good" in the sense of "suited to purpose" is different than "morally good".
Premise 24 is demonstrably wrong. A snowflake can set off an avalanche, if it falls in the correct place. This does not mean that a snowflake has all the power of an avalanche.
Premise 25 is word salad. It doesn't mean anything.
Premise 27 reveals an equivocation in premise 12. Premise 12 claims abstract entities as things which exist separate from a mind or physical reality. Premise 27 claims abstract entities as existing in minds. You cannot have both in the same argument.
Premise 30 is a definition only, which will not impart traits commonly assigned to omniscient entities such as knowledge of future events to entities meeting this particular definition. Attempts to conflate this definition with more traditional definitions of omniscience will, of course, result in further equivocation fallacies.
@@Kyeudo I'm okay with 1. I think he was referring to parts in the sense that we can describe something in a simpler manner.
Ie fire needs heat, fuel, and oxygen. So the parts of fire are heat, fuel, and oxygen. Or the parts of a chair might include legs or a class of shapes.
I didn't bother going past 5 because I saw the argument as unsound and didn't bother reading beyond it.
He didn't like my proof that God didn't exist.
1. God is the creator of the universe. (Dictionary)
2. God is a ruler of the universe. (Dictionary)
3. A ruler is a person. (Dictionary)
C1. God is a person.
4. A person needs air to live.
5. A nonliving person cannot create.
6. There was no air prior to the creation of the universe.
C2. God needs air to create the universe.
C3. God is cannot be a ruler of the universe and create the universe.
@@mesplin3
I don't like it either, but from a logical validity standpoint. The main problem is that you haven't provided a definition of person that both includes gods and mandates air-breathing.
"Person" is a tricky thing to define, as we often speculate about sentient AI, alien races, and so on that could qualify as "persons" without having the same biological needs. Even in modern times, we debate at what point a developing human should be classed as a "person".
@@Kyeudo I get that. It's a stupid argument.
That's why I dropped the argument. I think we'd need to agree that the premises/definitions are true or at least tolerable before reaching a conclusion.
@@mesplin3 I can't get past 1. Quarks, as we know them, are elementary particles, meaning they don't have any constituents.
IMO, it’s never a “good” debate regarding religion, faith or any other supernatural belief. My reason for saying this is that there IS no good evidence for those beliefs. Therefore, the debater on the side of religion, faith, etc., doesn’t have anything of substance to warrant good arguments in their defense of said beliefs.
27:40 - too funny that you bring the big lie and subsequent insurrection up as an analogy to the practice of blind belief in the Jesus fables; I was thinking about that same comparison just the other night. I suppose the fact that those who tend to blindly and irrationally believe in creation/god/Jesus/etc., also tend to be of the ilk that bought the big lie and/or even went as far as to participate in an insurrection isn't that surprising at all.
Those who can be made to believe in absurdity, can be made to commit atrocity. Voltaire
@@littlebitofhope1489 Too true.
Kierkegaard wrote Fear and Trembling to express explicitly how absurd and irrational Christian belief is, and his prescription was to embrace the absurdity and take the leap of faith anyway. To debate that Christianity is logical, rational, or reasonable is largely disingenuous and a small-minded interpretation of Christianity and its mysteries (i.e., nonsensical propositions). What a foundationally goofy debate, lol.
I found the debate in my feed, but it was already far into it, and so instead of watching the end, and then watching from the beginning later, I waited. A few hours later I clicked on the link, and it was set to "Private" I tried several times within a few hours, but it stayed that way, and it hasn't showed up in my feed ever since.
I think Stuart is just too far into his indoctrination. The debate between you too should be put on display for psychology students to demonstrate how harmful indoctrination is to a human mind. Stuart is a grown man still incapable of critical thinking 90% of the time. This is concerning.
I swear these debates are getting spicier and spicier
The fact of the matter is this man has been debating if there is a god for his whole 30 years of career, but he can't "be convinced that there is a god", why can't you be convince cause you CANNOT DENY that claim that there is a god. God has been with this man until now, hes just not humble enough to accept it or say I am convinced but not entirely sure.
Be on your guard against all religions.
No, as a Zoroastrian, I love all religions.
*Why can't Christians see ?*
_The same _*_quantity & quantity of evidence offered_*_ for their claims, are essentially the same as those offered for all other religions._
*(Faith in the words & writings of men, that claim to speak for God)*
No no no no no no no no no no you’re done!! Didn’t make an appearance on the debate 😢
The real question might be “Is reality rational?” Doesn’t that question also come down to opinion? Why wouldn’t an atheist say “No reality is not rational.” For the same reason he’s not convinced there is a god. I look around, I don’t see a god, therefore there’s not a god. I look around, I don’t see any morality in nature, it seems to be a bloodbath, kill or be killed. The problem of evil, I look around, reality seems to be evil to me. So question; if I want my belief system to reflect reality, why would my belief system not also be evil?
That conversation wasn't a debate... it sucked... on your opponent's part. I couldn't even finish watching it because it was pointless - again, on his end. And I've heard your points enough to know what your responses would be.