It's so interesting that the word 'mà' was the first dấu huyền word you noticed sounding different because it was for me too! I always founded it strange when my students used it (usually when arguing with another student or getting annoyed with me telling them off for something) and to me it sounded more like dấu sắc.
THANK YOU this answers a question I've been wondering about! And you're so right; native speakers take it for granted and struggle to answer so concisely but I can totally hear it. HOWEVER, you didn't address the thing that is most important to me personally-- sarcasm! How does communicating irony work? If you can't use a tone or elongate words to suggest that your meaning is actually contrary to the words that you're saying (like "oh, this will be GGrreeeaaat" referring to something you think is going to suck) is there another mode of expression that people use to do that, with tone-shifting like you're illustrating or something else? Or is verbal irony just not really a thing people do; relying more on body language and facial expressions?
Actually, when a native speakers use a word or a phrase to express sarcasm, we usually change the shape of mouth and lip like pouted and pronounce the word longer than usual. Hope that work ☺️
Additionally, if a native speakers want to express an exited moment like "Oh, this will be Sooo Grreeeeaaat", we usually use slang language, like "Phê Vãi Lolz" or "Thích Cựcccccc". Hope it help ☺️
Cảm ơn anh Zôn. Bài học của anh luon hữu ích quá. Nếu mình muốn có vẻ hào hứng về cái gì đó và phải dùng dấu nặng mình sẽ phát âm từ ngay trước to hơn. Vì dụ: ''quả này RẤT ngọt, chẲng chua đâu!" Anh nghĩ gì vậy?
I understand that you have become fascinated by the tones of Vietnamese. The problem is that I don't think you get the gist. You approach Vietnamese as if it were an alphabetic language and it isn't. What is, is that it is a living language, with the result that pronunciation changes under the influence of television in particular. But that does not alter the fact that the, in my opinion, exaggerated attention to the tones is at the expense of the real pronunciation problems. The two most important are, first of all, that the Latin script has only 5 vowels while the Vietnamese has more than thirty. No problem for the Vietnamese because they learn the pronunciation before they can read, for foreigners a huge problem because for a large part of the sounds there is no marking. And even more important is the fact that the structure of their sentences has a very different logic from ours. Their sentence structure is based on the logographic script that is visual: first the picture and later the sound. And that sound can be filled in as needed. The words are short and high in density, meaning you don't have that much time for all those tone twists. Their sentences are based on the visual, to read pictures you don't need breath. Sentences of Alphabetic languages are based on breathing and the use of that breath. Yes, young Vietnamese who also speak English have a bit more variety in their voices, but most Vietnamese don't. In my opinion it is therefore much more important to know which words belong together. Coincidentally, I recently made a video about the tones and the use of sound options while speaking. My Vietnamese is much more limited, but I think my explanation about the causes of the difference in pronunciation is much better again. th-cam.com/video/qL-hMq5DsX4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for your feedback Roby! I just watched your video now. I think it's great to see other people come up with their own approaches to the language - I'm sure you and I would agree that conventional ways of teaching/learning Vietnamese aren't always the most instructive. I also basically agree with your point that people blame their pronunciation mistakes on tones, when often it's got more to do with their misunderstanding of the vowel system. I'd say that tones make up less than half of the difficulty with pronunciation, but they're probably the most over-represented aspect because of how strange it is to people coming from non-tonal languages. I'm not sure if I agree with your idea that they shouldn't be a central aspect of one's learning, though - my position is that pronunciation and reading should be the very first things you learn, because most people who learn Vietnamese are primarily interested in its practical application - they want to be able to repeat simple phrases for ordering food and exchanging pleasantries and be understood while doing so. Learning finer points of grammar or word collocation is a much more advanced topic, and takes a much longer time to really become useful.
@@JH-ty2cs I studied theory of education and we learned that maybe the most important was that the teacher loves what he/she does. And you not only do that...you are also able to make the students enthousiast. So, for that matter are you completely attuned with TVO. And they have some of the best teachers with very interesting ideas. I.m not such a good teacher, I only like to explain things. And I have the deviation that I would like to draw attention to the study of chu nom in order to better understand the lexicography and grammar of Vietnamese. In the meantime, you're absolutely right about the teaching materials: in Vietnam they had more important things to do like repair roads, hospitals, schools, and so on. For the Vietnamese courses for foreigners, they just left behind (?) courses using French & English as the base. And that's what hurts. Someone once gave me a course they use at the university in HCM... just a disaster. Several TVO series are so unbelievably much better.
Yes I had the problem with controlling my emotions and the tones! If your sentence is correct grammatical then they will understand your poor, my poor tonal ability! I live with 2 Vietnamese people so I know 😜
John I always find your videos very enlightening. I love getting your perspective.
thank you so much for your support!
Welcome back brother, good to see you in a good-healthy shape
one vibrant video per month we are expecting ; )
thanks
Gold.
Thank you.
It's so interesting that the word 'mà' was the first dấu huyền word you noticed sounding different because it was for me too! I always founded it strange when my students used it (usually when arguing with another student or getting annoyed with me telling them off for something) and to me it sounded more like dấu sắc.
how interesting! thank you for sharing your experiences!
Great stuff John! Keep it up dude
Thank you very much! Very useful👏
THANK YOU this answers a question I've been wondering about! And you're so right; native speakers take it for granted and struggle to answer so concisely but I can totally hear it. HOWEVER, you didn't address the thing that is most important to me personally-- sarcasm! How does communicating irony work? If you can't use a tone or elongate words to suggest that your meaning is actually contrary to the words that you're saying (like "oh, this will be GGrreeeaaat" referring to something you think is going to suck) is there another mode of expression that people use to do that, with tone-shifting like you're illustrating or something else? Or is verbal irony just not really a thing people do; relying more on body language and facial expressions?
Actually, when a native speakers use a word or a phrase to express sarcasm, we usually change the shape of mouth and lip like pouted and pronounce the word longer than usual. Hope that work ☺️
Additionally, if a native speakers want to express an exited moment like "Oh, this will be Sooo Grreeeeaaat", we usually use slang language, like "Phê Vãi Lolz" or "Thích Cựcccccc". Hope it help ☺️
watch some vietnamese comedy
Cảm ơn anh Zôn. Bài học của anh luon hữu ích quá. Nếu mình muốn có vẻ hào hứng về cái gì đó và phải dùng dấu nặng mình sẽ phát âm từ ngay trước to hơn. Vì dụ: ''quả này RẤT ngọt, chẲng chua đâu!" Anh nghĩ gì vậy?
My hero
Dấu hỏi....my nemisis: I am going to watch your video.....
I understand that you have become fascinated by the tones of Vietnamese. The problem is that I don't think you get the gist. You approach Vietnamese as if it were an alphabetic language and it isn't.
What is, is that it is a living language, with the result that pronunciation changes under the influence of television in particular. But that does not alter the fact that the, in my opinion, exaggerated attention to the tones is at the expense of the real pronunciation problems.
The two most important are, first of all, that the Latin script has only 5 vowels while the Vietnamese has more than thirty. No problem for the Vietnamese because they learn the pronunciation before they can read, for foreigners a huge problem because for a large part of the sounds there is no marking. And even more important is the fact that the structure of their sentences has a very different logic from ours. Their sentence structure is based on the logographic script that is visual: first the picture and later the sound. And that sound can be filled in as needed. The words are short and high in density, meaning you don't have that much time for all those tone twists. Their sentences are based on the visual, to read pictures you don't need breath. Sentences of Alphabetic languages are based on breathing and the use of that breath. Yes, young Vietnamese who also speak English have a bit more variety in their voices, but most Vietnamese don't. In my opinion it is therefore much more important to know which words belong together. Coincidentally, I recently made a video about the tones and the use of sound options while speaking. My Vietnamese is much more limited, but I think my explanation about the causes of the difference in pronunciation is much better again. th-cam.com/video/qL-hMq5DsX4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for your feedback Roby! I just watched your video now. I think it's great to see other people come up with their own approaches to the language - I'm sure you and I would agree that conventional ways of teaching/learning Vietnamese aren't always the most instructive. I also basically agree with your point that people blame their pronunciation mistakes on tones, when often it's got more to do with their misunderstanding of the vowel system. I'd say that tones make up less than half of the difficulty with pronunciation, but they're probably the most over-represented aspect because of how strange it is to people coming from non-tonal languages.
I'm not sure if I agree with your idea that they shouldn't be a central aspect of one's learning, though - my position is that pronunciation and reading should be the very first things you learn, because most people who learn Vietnamese are primarily interested in its practical application - they want to be able to repeat simple phrases for ordering food and exchanging pleasantries and be understood while doing so. Learning finer points of grammar or word collocation is a much more advanced topic, and takes a much longer time to really become useful.
@@JH-ty2cs I studied theory of education and we learned that maybe the most important was that the teacher loves what he/she does. And you not only do that...you are also able to make the students enthousiast. So, for that matter are you completely attuned with TVO. And they have some of the best teachers with very interesting ideas.
I.m not such a good teacher, I only like to explain things. And I have the deviation that I would like to draw attention to the study of chu nom in order to better understand the lexicography and grammar of Vietnamese.
In the meantime, you're absolutely right about the teaching materials: in Vietnam they had more important things to do like repair roads, hospitals, schools, and so on. For the Vietnamese courses for foreigners, they just left behind (?) courses using French & English as the base. And that's what hurts. Someone once gave me a course they use at the university in HCM... just a disaster.
Several TVO series are so unbelievably much better.
Yes I had the problem with controlling my emotions and the tones! If your sentence is correct grammatical then they will understand your poor, my poor tonal ability! I live with 2 Vietnamese people so I know 😜