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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
- Why does the KJV call the Holy Spirit the "Holy Ghost" 90 times (and yet use "Holy Spirit," too, a few times?)? And is there some freaking out in order when Bible translations might mislead people-say, into thinking that we worship Caspar's cousin?
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Ghost is a poor choice for today. It gives a sense of good ghosts vs bad ghosts. And the number of ghost hunting shows today doesn't help clear that up.
Right!
Yes I refuse to use it because ghost has a sense that is not true here and now.
I never say it.
Thank you for this Mark
Glad to be of service.
Thanks for sharing your insights, Mark. You've helped clarify its relationship with Holy Spirit.
Glad it was helpful!
Nailed it once again.
Thanks for watching-once again!
I wish you have addressed the popular false etymology that says "ghost" was used because it used to mean "guest." I hear this one from time to time.
Never heard that one!
Fantastic video. For a time I had the privilege of teaching a religious ed class to unchurched 4th & 5th graders in a public school. I wish every believer in this debate could have heard the collective gasp of shock from the class the day I mentioned that depending on what Bible translation they read, the Holy Spirit might sometimes be called "the Holy Ghost."
I know!!! I’ve had this experience so many times! I’m praying that one of the strengths of the KJV-Only portion of the church will help them here: they’re evangelistic. They send buses into the community to bring little kids to church. Usually, those kids do not hail from the upper echelons of society; usually they don’t read super well (though I have definitely run into exceptions in bus ministry!). Surely our KJV-Only brothers have had the experience countless times, if only they would recognize it, of reading the Bible to a child and seeing their eyes glaze over or hearing them get something totally wrong!
I remember a Sunday School teacher in my former KJV only church mentioned that the only time the two words Holy Spirit (the capitalized version as opposed to Holy spirit, Holy Ghost, or non capitalized version of the word) was found only once in the KJV.
“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
Luke 11:13 KJV
Then there's these:
Ps 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy spirit from me.
Isa 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: Therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Isa 63:11
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1 Thess 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Well done!
Thank you for watching! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I really need a lot more information on the word hell
Arnold, send me a PM and tell me what's going on. Let me see if I can help!
Speaking as an annihilationist I have to say that translating the "hell" words correctly does make it easier to Biblically explain and support my belief. This is because it doesn't obfuscate the words hiding behind the word "hell".
Better translations make it easier to show that the Bible does not support ECT.
Yep, we're old enough to know our ghost from our spirit, or Ghost and Spirit, just as you say. But what I want to say is how much I really enjoy listening to your very bright and fast way of talking while never missing a beat! Totally look forward to another episode, and thank you!
I miss beats! I just edit the missed beats out!
Almost the first question out of my kid's mouth upon hearing us sing the Doxology was, "Dad, what's a holy ghost?" He was absolutely thinking of a Casper figure.
Wow. Helpful.
Hmm, is the Paraclete "friendly?" This theologian would have to say so!
Interestingly, the KJV also uses “spirit” at times when referring to what we would call a “ghost”. Luke 24:39 when Jesus appears to Thomas and Mark 6:49 when Jesus is walking upon the water are two examples that come to mind. In both cases, some modern versions translate it as “ghost” which is definitely what’s being described.
I think “Holy Ghost” is still well known enough in pop culture to not be a problem yet (e.g, the song “American Pie” talks about “the three men I admire most, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost”), but it does make you wonder if readers in coming generations will understand the term.
Thanks again for making this series of videos!
Interesting point. And I agree that this one is not a problem for too many people. Mostly kids, I’d think.
I agree that "Holy Ghost" is still widely used in pop culture and thus not confusing to most. I remember hearing it as a kid and not being confused by it, though I thought it was weird that somebody would call the Holy Spirit a "ghost." Most traditional church hymns use "Holy Ghost" as well, not only because they were written in KJV-style English (with "thee," "thou," and so forth) at a time when the KJV was the dominant English translation, but also because "ghost" rhymes with more words than "spirit."
As an aside, I always found it curious at how numerous the religious allusions in "American Pie" are. :)
@@hotwax9376, I'm totally with you.
Hi Mark, I am enjoying your work. Does the following add any clarity to this topic?
The reason many Christians will refer to the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) as the Holy Ghost is because the King James Version uses the words Spirit and Ghost interchangeably. In all the major events of the Spirit of God coming upon believers (John 14:26; Acts 2:4; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:44; and Acts 19:6) the KJV says "the Holy Ghost" came upon the believers. "Spirit" and "Ghost" are renderings of the same Greek word "Pneuma" which means breath or wind. The advantage of the rendering "Spirit" is that it can always be used, whereas "Ghost" always requires the word "Holy" prefixed (Vines Dictionary). 90 some times the KJV says "Holy Ghost". I have known Christians in certain denominations, where they are not acquainted with the KJV, that are totally creeped out by referring to the Spirit as the Holy Ghost. I think I have seen them shudder!!! But historically "Ghost" was used for "Spirit" because of theological reasons. The Person of the Holy Spirit (Ghost) comes into the world. The invisible Spirit is a Person. Anyway, in Old English "Ghost' was a synonym for "Spirit", and was actually the only meaning of it. I hope this may help.
My friend, Old English used "ghost" differently than we do, as you say. What do people today mean by "ghost"?
As a person who grew up in church I was like you. I was never confused about the Holy Ghost being a person. I definitely never thought of him as Casper.
That, however, doesn't mean others do not. One thing I am learning, especially in my work with the unchurched low income Americans, is that my perspective isn't always shared. How I think isn't how others think and what confuses me, may not confuse others (and vice versa, of course). I do occasionally meet a person who thinks of God having "ghostlike" qualities. They are usually unchurched and Biblically illiterate. They know of the term "Holy Ghost" and attach an incorrect idea to that terminology.
That's why the most clear term should be sought and used, always. It's also why I appreciate the constant flow of new translations from the publishers. It means someone somewhere is also concerned about the best use of words and is working to match Biblical concepts with modern words. Yes, it also means that I have to weed out a few translations and get frustrated with too many new translations that seem to duplicate what already exists, but it's worth the result.
I'd rather have too many than none at all.
Absolutely right. Just the way I feel.
The phrase "Holy Ghost" didn't confuse me as a kid either, because I had already heard "ghost" and "spirit" used interchangeably before. For example, some adaptations of A Christmas Carol refer to the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future as "Spirit of Christmas Past/Present/Future." And of course, he mentioned "give up the ghost" in the video as another example.
Interesting. Thanks
Thanks for watching and commenting. It helps to know there are people out there...
Wow, I never even thought of this, and yet, it's the most obvious one. Good video as always.
We get used to our churchy jargon. And it’s not wrong to have jargon! It just needs to be weeded through every so often. I’m a jargon weeder.
IDK, those fiery Pentecostal sermons seemed to be more energetic when they shouted "Holy Ghost!"
#humour
Ha! You are probably right!
One source describes a bunch of extreme KJVOs who translated the KJV into Spanish without understanding either language translated the phrase as "Fantasma Santo" ("Holy Phantom") instead of "Espíritu Santo" (the correct Spanish expression).
Treading on dangerous waters, careful now.
The word hell is a false friend!
Arnold, I'm not so sure! What does the underlying Greek word mean? What did the English word mean in 1611? Tell me what you're thinking, brother!
I wouldn't say that the word Hell is necessarily a false friend, but the way it's used in the KJV is misleading, as both Hades (a temporary place that includes a torment area and a paradise area separated by a gulf) and Gehenna (the Lake of Fire, the final destination of unsaved people) are translated as "Hell" in the KJV, with no distinction made between them. So someone reading a passage in the KJV and wondering which Hell is being referred to in which passages is a bit of an issue. One place where this really creates false doctrine among some KJV-Onlyists is where it mentions Jesus "not being left in Hades." Since the KJV translates Hades as "Hell," this leads to the false doctrine that Jesus spent three days in a place of torment, which is not true. He went to the paradise section of Hades, which is exactly what he told the repentant criminal (TODAY you will be WITH ME IN PARADISE). In this case the translation of "Hades" into "Hell" is completely misleading, as we no longer use "Hell" to refer to Hades as a whole, but only to the torments section of Hades (and also use it to refer to Gehenna, but that is a completely different place).
While "Holy Ghost" may have been a good translation at the time of the KJV (and indeed is still commonly used in churches today), it's probably not the best translation for modern English. Back in those days, the word "ghost" meant any sort of spirit, but today it specifically means a scary spirit, often of a dead person. While either "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" is technically acceptable, I would consider Holy Spirit to be more correct nowadays for that very reason.
As for "Hades" versus "hell," I actually think the modern translations that keep Hades in English are more correct because Hades and hell don't mean the same thing. Hell is the place of final punishment for the wicked, but Hades just means the dead. Conflating hell with "the dead" or "the grave" (as I sometimes heard growing up in the SDA church) would require us to believe that everyone, including Christians, goes to hell when they die, a heretical conclusion if ever there was one.
You're thinking the way I think. Thank you for this cogent comment! I would *pay* to have more cogent comments! =)
I totally agree. Hades needs to be seperate from Hell. Otherwise in Revelation you have hell being cast into hell. I much prefer Sheol retained as a place name as well rather than translating it to what you think it means in a particular place. It is a place with a name, just like Hades.
@@flintymcduff5417 Sheol and Hades basically mean the same thing, only one is Hebrew and the other is Greek (same as with "hallelujah" versus "alleluia," Elijah versus Elias, etc.). The Septuagint translated "Sheol" in the OT as "Hades" as well.
Holy Ghost was Catholic usage up until Vatican II, and is still old time Pentecostally acceptable if not preferred. It may sound strange, but is "spirit" really less so?
Starting last year I started putting the word Spirit above the Ghost in verses in my copy of KJV Scofield Reference Bible.I can't help but think of Casper the friendly ghost.Following the advice of somebody I heard that in giving away English copies of God's in Word either give them NLT or NIV for new christians.,then trust God's Spirit to help transition to NKJV or KJV when they are mature enough to understand Bible version issues.
Several friends of said to me that they wondered as kids why the word "ghost" was used.
this is why i use the new scofield KJV even though i am not dispensational
It's been a long time since I've seen one of those. I need to learn more about it.
@@markwardonwords i bought it on ebay for @35.00. they are out of print. this one is french morocco and leather lined. i grew up with the KJV and the bew pastor came (i had just graduated HS 1968) and i asked him what version he was using. he said the scofield. i went to the local book store and all they had was the new scofield. i used it for several years until the NASB came out and i gave it away. last year i was thinking back and thought i would see if i could find one.
It should be noted that we Conditionalists/Annihilationists do NOT deny the damnation of the wicked in hell forever. What we reject is the said damnation take the form of eternal conscious torment.
Who are the major proponents of the view you take? What books and names come to mind?
@@markwardonwords Chris Date, the late Edward Fudge, John Stott, Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd, Glenn Peoples, and others. Booker include Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, A Consuming Passion, and A Fire that Consumes.
The Dennis the Menace cartoon for today shows Dennis and his parents leaving church. Dennis says to the minister "I liked that part about the Father and His Son's Holy Goats." So misunderstanding IS a possibility.
Yes!
I think you were sloppy here... "The New Testament uses three words for hell: Tartarus, Gehenna, and Hades." When actually, the opposite is true... the KJV used one word, "hell" for all three of those words. The New Testament used THOSE words to describe THOSE concepts/places, not the idea of eternal "hell"-fire.
I see what you're saying. Yeah, I could have stated that better. Thank you!
Here's a question: Why does the KJV use both "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit"? I thought I read that only one of the translating companies chose "Holy Spirit" while the rest did "Holy Ghost." That seems like a decent explanation, but I'm not sure if it's the right one. I've also heard a KJVO guy mutter something about "it means something...I'll get back to you on that." (And naturally never did.) Obviously they refer to the same person, so why the variation?
Excellent question. I don’t know, and I couldn’t find anything reliable on the matter in David Norton’s Textual History of the KJV-which is the only source I really trust on such matters. Shelby, do you know any other sources that might be reliable on such a thing? Elsewhere I usually find speculation turning into opinion turning into “fact.”
@@markwardonwords While I'd trust Scrivener on other issues, I don't remember him addressing that particular question. Beyond that, I really don't know.
Agreed.
The RV 1885 is the first translation of the Modern Translations/Versions of the Modern Bible. I have a few RV 1885 Bibles as part of my collection. The New Testament Revised Version 1885 do have some very important information from the back of it's pages where King James Version and RV 1885 differs from each other. You can still buy the Revised Version New Testament in Amazon on hardcover.
Hades is "the realm of the dead" or " the neatherworld" a place of the dead (lost souls) sheol means the same as hades.
Abbys is the center of the earth and Tartarus is a prison to fallen wicked angels. They so wicked that they must be put their until the day of judgement. Gehenna is the Lake of fire*.
Hades/Sheol, Abbys, Tartarus, and Gehenna. Hades and Gehenna in the KJV is translated Hell. The Watchtower and Jehovah Witness Bible translates it to "grave" (New World Translation). What JW's tell me is " when you die you turn back to dust ( or ground). Soul sleeping. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Seveth Day Adventist teach soul sleeping as well. But Hades really mean the place of the dead ( lost soul). Doesn't support soul sleeping 🤦.
I don't know if I've ever actually seen an 1885 ERV.
@@markwardonwords I buy them on EBay most of them are antiques. But you can download the pdf on eBible.org.
@@markwardonwords I want to published that Bible on Lulu (hardcover) but I've been having some issues. But some have publish it on Lulu ERV 1895.
I was raised Seventh Day Adventist, and I remember a pastor and elder both telling me that "hell" in the Bible simply meant "the grave." But even then I knew that couldn't be true because if it was, that would mean that everyone, including Christians, goes to hell when they die, which is blatantly heretical. Hades and Sheol mean "the dead" or "the grave," while "hell," "Tartarus," and "Gehenna" all refer to the place of final punishment for the wicked. The KJV made a serious (or should I say, grave :P) mistake to translate all of those words as "hell," and since much of traditional SDA doctrine (including soul sleep and the investigative judgment) depends on the KJV (since it was the most widely used translation at the time the SDA church was established), it's led many Adventists into that misunderstanding.
@@hotwax9376 The SDA was founded by Freemasons and Ellen G White's Husband James White was a Mason and with their buddies. That's even more shocking even the founder of Seveth Day Baptist which Ellen was a member of was a Freemason. Heck even Charls Taze Russell ( founder of Watch Tower and Jehovah Witnesses) is a 33 Degree Freemason. That right there is enough for me.
Keep up the debarnacling!! I think that may be a made up word? ;)
Just doin' m' job!
Good for you Mr. Ward;
I take it for granted that YOU now have a PARFECT standard by which to judge ALL things.
I'm not sure I'm getting your pun with the word "parfect." Is this a golf pun?
aSide comment (and sad): 2 close relatives and a close friend believe in ghosts.
Are they embarrassed about it in polite company?
Personally I miss the use of the term Holy Ghost. You never hear it anymore, at least in what I'd call the Christian mainstream.
By the way Mark, your videos may have had an unintended impact. I am now reading the KJV more often than ever. It has gone from a version that I only occasionally consulted for its literary qualities to my primary English translation. Of course you are not entirely responsible for this, but you have helped.
I don't think we need to abandon the KJV. We simply have to put in the effort to learn how to read it. I guess you could now classify me as KJV Preferred.
No, not my intended impact! But now wholly unwelcome. As long as readers know how to discern, verify, and-preeminently, of course-*understand* dead words and false friends, I’ve got no problem at all with people reading the KJV. I do still think it should not be used in institutional contexts, because there are few institutional contexts in which all the participants can discern, verify, and understand dead words and false friends. In churches, there are kids and new believers and poorly educated believers (“not many wise, not many noble are called”). In camps, there are unchurched kids. Christian colleges are the context in which I’m least concerned about institutionalized KJV usage. Still concerned. Still wouldn’t do it. But most people there are, by definition, capable of learning to read more difficult texts.
@@markwardonwords As I see it, reading the KJV regularly and competently requires a commitment to educating oneself on the vocabulary of the era, as well as a few grammatical points (the pronouns specifically). You also have to just generally get used to the way sentences are structured in the KJV, as the wording does occasionally sound distinctly odd to modern ears (Romans 7:14-19 for instance is kind of rough going the first few times you read it). The reader has to be genuinely motivated and passionate about reading the King James Version. At least at first you can't just sit down at read it casually. Rather, you have to be willing to invest the time and energy into really STUDYING the text.
My strategy has been to use resources like your videos and book, various dictionaries that have been specifically put together for the KJV, and comparison with the NKJV and MEV to assist with understanding. I also have the Holman KJV Study Bible and the Ryrie KJV Study Bible and both are excellent resources that often assist with textual difficulties via the notes.
When I was a child in the 80s, I remember hearing the KJV often. At least in the circles I grew up in, it was still considered the standard translation. My first memorizations were from the KJV. However, in the 90s I was given the NIV and our pastor preached from the NIV. And now, today, it seems like the KJV--at least in most of the evangelical world--has been forgotten. I never hear pastors preaching from it, I rarely see it quoted in evangelical literature, and I know no one who reads it. The church I attend now is a young church with almost all of the congregation under 40 and I highly suspect that nearly everyone in the church has done little or no reading from the KJV. In fact, quoting from it would probably just get quizzical looks from most of them.
I think this is a shame, considering what a titan of Christian history and English literature the King James Version is.
So in a way, it's odd for me to watch your videos, because this world of people who are stuck on the KJV and refuse to read anything else is an alien landscape to me. In my world it's the opposite situation: No one reads the KJV and few seem at all interested in doing so. As a result, the KJV is fading from memory. I would like to do what I can to reverse this trend.
All that said, I do agree with you that the KJV probably should not be used in a corporate setting. Undoubtedly doing so will result in unnecessary confusion and a lack of understanding, as most Christians (and certainly non-Christians) today have simply not invested the time and energy into the education necessary to fully understand the text. As someone who has been slowly gaining a preference for the TR, in such settings I would recommend either the NKJV or the under-appreciated and under-utilized MEV.
Good thinking. More power to you, truly!
@@markwardonwords Well since you didn't touch on my point about the KJV being forgotten in the Christian mainstream, let me ask you directly: Since you have said you love the KJV, does it not concern you that many Christians today seem to not read it at all or use it in any shape or form?
It would seem to me that, while King James Onlyism is an error, King James Abandonment is just as distressing, and a problem worthy of its own crusade.
Good and fair question. I will answer with a question: does it concern you that hardly anyone reads the Geneva Bible anymore? The KJV has historic, traditional value. But not magic value. The value of a translation derived from its ability to communicate the message of the Bible ton contemporary readers and hearers. Its value therefore diminishes as it progressively loses its ability to do this. The first 1,000 words of the KJV preface are a defense of the need for translation revision.
Are you a biblical scholar?? So, you are a Bible corrector?
I do not consider myself either a Bible scholar or a Bible corrector. I am a slave of Christ and a herald whose job is to repeat what he said.
Based on looking at the Hebrew and Greek interlinears I’ve come to the conclusion that there isn’t a bible that has not in certain places been unfaithful to the original language.
Even the Young’s literal translation falsely replaces the word “deity “ with “godhead” in Colossians 2:9.
Even though there is nothing whatsoever in the Greek to support “godhead.”
And the KJV also has some biased renderings in it not supported by the Hebrew or Greek although, to much less of an extent than the NIV or NLT.
And as for the trinity. In reality it’s not biblically supported.
Also the KJV is guilty of mistranslating “gehenna” as hell and also “sheol” as hell and “Tartarus” as hell.
They each mean different things yet the morons translating them have them the same word.
As a result they have spread false doctrine about death.
“Sheol” simply means grave.
“Gehenna” means the second death, or eternal destruction.
And “Tartarus” is the abyss where the angels that sinned in the days of Noah were bound up.
But thanks to mistranslation people have misunderstood what “hell” is and associated it with Gehenna and Tartarus with no biblical warrant.
Humans don’t go to Tartarus and as for Gehenna, it means those that are permanently destroyed after the great tribulation it’s figurative and not a literal lake of fire.
It’s just fire represents utter destruction which is why that metaphor is used.
The KJV has proved inaccurate in some translation and sadly most other bibles I know of are also inaccurate to some degree too.
But I d go with the NASB.
Friend, you're critiquing the work of hundreds of biblical scholars. On the one hand, they'd be the first to acknowledge that their work contains inaccuracies-no one can translate the Bible "perfectly" without Holy Spirit inspiration. But on the other hand, I have found that, almost invariably, what people consider to be "errors" have some good reasons behind them.
Mark Ward Well the scholars either weren’t very intelligent or were trying to corrupt the scriptures because to translate concepts that are completely different using the same word, will lead to the formation of false doctrines which has serious consequences.
Everybody goes to hell because he’ll is another word for sheol and sheol means grave.
So when we die we go there. But “Gehenna” is something entirely different and all these teachings about hellfire are bonkers.
Gehenna is figurative for everlasting destruction in which it will be the very final curtain for anyone condemned to it and as such qualifies as everlasting punishment since such a person will never live again.
But the hellfire doctrine is silly anyway and no rational person would believe in it because, the punishment would not fit the crime and the bible calls God a God of justice and that would not be justice at all to give out eternal torment for people’s sins.
You should retract that statement about Albert Hemde, one of the world's leading Hebrew scholars, as a KJV onlyist. That's misrepresentation. You really gotta start doing your research on these little points lol
I read his 38,000 words on the NKJV extremely carefully. I’m afraid I must stand by my assessment. The conclusions, the tone, and the rhetorical strategies are all taken straight from the KJV-Only playbook. TBS promotes a more careful and intelligent version of KJV-Onlyism than the one that predominates in the U.S., however, and for that I’m genuinely grateful. A book by Malcolm Watts is on my church’s recommended book list for the year.
Mark Ward i guess im confused by your definition of KJVO then. KJVO in most people's mind refers to a Ruckman or Sam Gipp OT Gail Riplinger. That's KJVO. The TBS is not KJVO. They are a translation ministry, and they don't translate from the KJV.
I grew up in proudly, self-consciously, self-described “KJV-Only” circles. My pastor knew that Ruckman was a step too far, however. We knew that the KJV itself was not inspired or perfect in the same way the originals were. Obviously, Hembd and TBS are not KJVO in the same sense as Ruckman. But they are KJVO in the very same sense that I was in high school.
Mark Ward ive just never heard anyone make the distinction in reformed circles. They usually assume they are one in the same. Did you get my email address? Never heard back from you.
Reformed KJV/TR circles are much, much smaller than IFB KJV circles. I think the bigger one probably gets to define the label-though I do recognize some genuine distinctions between the two, especially the use of confessions in Reformed KJV-Only circles. The IFB is anti-confessional (though pro-sound-doctrine).
Are you jehovaless witness?
No. =)
@@markwardonwords That's why I stopped using dress shirts and ties. Got confused with JW several times