Thanks for your feedback. I'm just a self employed physio, avid cyclist and wannabe digital entrepreneur - getting feedback like yours makes my day!!!!
all the ways you mentioned can be used depending on the situation and the need for power, but only for a short time because the most efficient way of pedaling is just pushing the pedal
Great video, nicely done. Straightforward, and thankfully debunks the surfeit of pedaling techniques that have been out there for years. Thanks for putting this up!
Thanks for your feedback Greg. As I said, the research tends to look at immediate, same day changes in efficiency when cyclists are told to pedal in a certain way. And none of it helps. I have not seen any research yet which looks at changes after months or years of pedalling technique coaching. It would be a difficult research study to achieve, and I suspect would have few volunteers. If cyclists dont improve in the short term, why would they invest months doing that same pedalling action??
Pedalling's not static it's dynamic, and you should toggle your stroke, saddle height, fore and aft saddle position, knee angle of attack,l etc. According to your ride. For instance occasionally pulling up on upstroke does increase torque on a climb and while accelerating, but I wouldn't do it for the entire ride as it quickens fatigue and so on.
@podiumphysio657 Yes, lower to spin but higher to push big gears at lower cadences. Also during a ride I toggle riding positions between rear, mid, and the nose of the saddle. Nose of the saddle is better angle for climbing, mid saddle for sprinting, rear saddle for cruising.
Only time I pull the pedals is when I'm doing a max effort on a steep hill right at the end. Very inefficient but helps to squeeze out the last watts I have left.
This was my experience as a bike fitter. Pedaling looks simple from far away but when you look closely at each person, theres a wide variation in pedaling style which I had to take into account. Can your pedaling style change? Maybe over years, but you're going to ride tomorrow, so I have to fit you like I see you.
I agree that it is a challenge working out whether to fit a bike to the person in front of you, or throw in some coaching/ exercises and then fit the bike to the positive changes you expect to see down the line. I guess this a great rationale for having a revised bike fit each year.
I don’t think we pedal the bike as much as the bike pedals the rider. Ie. The rider provides the momentum but the range of motion is fixed by the arc of the rotation which cannot be changed. The conscious decision to try & adjust the neuromuscular pattern when pedalling is so incremental that i challenge anyone to quantify the increase in efficiency
Hi Danie. I dont have any personal experience with Oval chainrings. I understand that they are supposed to improve the lever arm for when the crank is in the peak power position. However if you have looked at some of my previous videos you will know that I am a big advocate of shorter cranks so that argument doesnt really gel with me. They are obviously still a niche product and some people will try them and stick with them but I suspect in a few years we will look back on them as a fad. If you have knee problems, or are trying to optimise for certain muscle groups I am sure there are different/ better ways to achieve that.
I've at times played with this as many I am sure have done. It really is a mentally concentrated effort to pull as well as push on opposite extremities during the course of one revolution. To gain this function with effective results takes many years to get muscle memory working, at least for us non professionals. The idea of power on the push stroke is a relatively easy mental state. Pulling on the up stroke takes more mental effort as it interferes with the down. One of they ways I have tried to accomplish this is merely under the more relaxed riding. Many times incorporating it on hills while seated. It's easier to do while out of the saddle. To become more proficient takes much more time. I look at the stroke and break it down into degrees. From roughly 30 degrees before the top of the pedals highest position to again roughly 10-20 degrees after the top, there is a transition of what I gauge my self as the honeymoon area. This is my more relaxed, breathing or slack part of the up to power down part of the power stroke. As I round the bottom, again, the last 10-15 degrees is where the power of the down cycle stops producing power and from there is a transition beginning to no power, The 10-15 before coupled with 10-20 degrees of that same down now starting into the upward stroke is again, the breathing, relaxed position. One can say that depending on each individual, there can be as much as maybe 90, plus or minus, of degrees of each full stroke, per leg where the rider can experience recovery. Granted the down, power stroke is the most efficient of the complete revolution but to be fair, this may only produce roughly at best about 75 degrees of that 90 degrees where the most power is generated. The up or rear part of the stroke will at best, if the cyclist is proficient, generate possibly 60 degrees and out of that 60 degrees of upward rear stroke, they will only generate roughly 35% of that full revolutions power cycle. The upstroke can be a useful part if the rider entertains the idea that it can also be used to allow as part of the leg/muscle recovery. One will build a very high lactate threshold if done properly. Passing that though is where we tend to chew on the engine's longevity before the mileage gets completed. Just my 2 cents folks. We all have our views for efficiency through the years of riding. I believe that each has their own madness or ways in which to accomplish their goals, whether in cycling or other areas. It seems I'm always evaluating myself, and at times my head gets placed in the sand, forgetting to pull it out when I'm stuck. The whole idea is, enjoy riding, it truly is a time when we can have at times, complete solidarity of mind, body and of nature which for myself at least, is the most enjoyable time of any day. Be happy safe out there folks.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Michael. I suspect there may be some gains to be made from deliberate long term pedal action "enhancement", but it will be difficult to work out in advance what the best options for each rider is, as everyone is different. Research is unlikely to come up with the answers for us as it would be a very difficult long term study to conduct.
It's funny how different bodies work. Becusee when I look at your position the saddle height looks too high for me and arms to much away from the hoods. I recently started lowering my saddle and have to say feel way better with lower setting from 78 to 76 within a year. I feel more planted, my L/R balance is now 50/50, I do not rock on the saddle even with very high cadence which I prefer. It also helped me with saddle sores. Also helps me get more aero and more relaxed on the arms. Any time I try to rise the saddle even slightly now I just end up with pain under the "balls area". My power numbers and performance is the best I've had. What's your thoughts on that, because on every measurements I've made with some AI bikefit apps it shows I should raise the saddle becuse of the knee angle. But i get zero knee pains. I had them before, when I've runned saddle higher.
Running a saddle too high typically causes pain behind the knee/hamstring area as compared to the knee, which occurs when the saddle is too low. I had the same issues with saddle sores as you when I was too high due to rocking, which caused irritation where my right leg meets my butt. I'm 5' 3" and just went from 170mm cranks to 165mm on my size 50 frame Domane. Riding with them today for the first time.
A lower saddle will definitely provide more stability, however it can cause problems with knee overload and start to impinge the hip at the top of the stroke. Some people can manage with it because everyone is different. If you are getting saddle discomfort at higher positions then I would say dont worry about going higher because it doesnt seem to suit you.
@@jeffreysaffir1375 I am 6'4" and have been riding with 160mm cranks since the start of the year. Best bike fit change I have ever made (Note though that this video shows my older "indoor bike" which is still on 175 cranks)
@@podiumphysio657 I posted this on the Trek Domane Lounge on FB: On a previous thread I discussed going from 170mm to 165mm cranks. Even though I had to get the power meter too (SRAM Rival) I decided to go ahead with the change especially given the fact I am 5' 3" and felt there was only an up side in my situation. I ordered them Monday and had them installed yesterday as well as having another fit to make sure things were in line with where they should be. Just got back from my first ride with them. A huge success! This season I was in the mid 16's on most rides with an occasional low to mid 17 mixed in. I hit a PR today with an average speed of 18.8 mph on a 55 mile ride with 2500 feet of climbing. Pretty excited with the ride. I definately noticed things during the ride that I liked. First of all, I was able to keep pace with the other riders better on long gradual climbs spinning faster, which allowed me to switch into a harder gear more efficiently. I was also able to close any seperation much faster this way. Normally I am towards the back in this situation on group rides but today I kept pace better. Climbing was easier as I didn't feel like I had to "get over the top" of my pedal stroke in comparison to previous rides. Even though I didn't have knee pain with the 170's it was more comfortable on my knees during. Felt things more in the quads which I prefer. I learned I would rather spin up a bit to propel myself forward instead of powering up with my legs. Cardio over muscle fatigue. I did have to make minor adjustments at the beginning of the ride based on the fit but once I did everything felt great. Because we raised the seat without raising the bars I can also flatten my back and get more aero in both the drops and the hoods. Very glad I experimented with shorter cranks. I will be putting my 170mm crank set up for sale after the results I had today. For me it was a win.
I honestly don’t think anyone can actually change their pedalling technique anyway, and research shows the same for cadence - your natural cadence is the most effective one for you.
The research seems to support that in the short term, attempts to change technique/ cadence or whatever else is futile as it degrades performance. It is less clear how much it would be possible to improve pedalling over months and years with drills and different coaching methods. This would be a much more challenging trial to run with so many variables to control.
@@podiumphysio657 Its logical, short term it should be worse, ur muscles grown in a way to suppurt ur technic, in long terms, ur muscles can develop to provide platform to a new technic, possible reaching higher cielling.
Have noticed something similar to the" glide your foot forward" happening when pedaling hard at high cadence on short cranks to different degrees now that I think of it. Becomes more noticeable when I ride my other bike with normal pedal, kicking my foot forward off the pedals sometimes.
I havent tried it myself. From a physiological standpoint it is a point in the pedal stroke where the glutes cant contribute much, so overall power production would be less here, however at higher cadence and lower torque it could be good use of the 3 Vastii muscles at the knee essentially performing a kicking action??
@@podiumphysio657 I don’t tend to focus much on pedaling technique because dropping to the drops seems to activate the leg muscles better. I guess it's similar to how loading the muscles works in deadlifting. More aero and power in one move.
@@myNamezMe Yes that will likely facilitate glutes more. I wish it was that simple for me but unfortunately with some pretty advanced osteoarthritis in my hips, getting down to the drops is no longer an option!
Very good video, not an expert but been riding 50 years now and have come to agree with everything you said.
Thanks for your feedback Greg. Keep on riding!
i like your channel a lot man, thanks for this one
Thanks for your feedback. I'm just a self employed physio, avid cyclist and wannabe digital entrepreneur - getting feedback like yours makes my day!!!!
all the ways you mentioned can be used depending on the situation and the need for power, but only for a short time because the most efficient way of pedaling is just pushing the pedal
Keep It Simple!
Great video, nicely done. Straightforward, and thankfully debunks the surfeit of pedaling techniques that have been out there for years. Thanks for putting this up!
Thanks for your feedback Greg. As I said, the research tends to look at immediate, same day changes in efficiency when cyclists are told to pedal in a certain way. And none of it helps.
I have not seen any research yet which looks at changes after months or years of pedalling technique coaching. It would be a difficult research study to achieve, and I suspect would have few volunteers.
If cyclists dont improve in the short term, why would they invest months doing that same pedalling action??
Pedalling's not static it's dynamic, and you should toggle your stroke, saddle height, fore and aft saddle position, knee angle of attack,l etc. According to your ride. For instance occasionally pulling up on upstroke does increase torque on a climb and while accelerating, but I wouldn't do it for the entire ride as it quickens fatigue and so on.
Do you alter your saddle position between rides?
@podiumphysio657 Yes, lower to spin but higher to push big gears at lower cadences. Also during a ride I toggle riding positions between rear, mid, and the nose of the saddle. Nose of the saddle is better angle for climbing, mid saddle for sprinting, rear saddle for cruising.
@@mmurmurjohnson2368 Sounds like you would benefit from one of Mohoric's dropper posts!
Only time I pull the pedals is when I'm doing a max effort on a steep hill right at the end. Very inefficient but helps to squeeze out the last watts I have left.
Makes sense. Get the most out of your body in a short period of time at the end of an effort
This was my experience as a bike fitter. Pedaling looks simple from far away but when you look closely at each person, theres a wide variation in pedaling style which I had to take into account. Can your pedaling style change? Maybe over years, but you're going to ride tomorrow, so I have to fit you like I see you.
I agree that it is a challenge working out whether to fit a bike to the person in front of you, or throw in some coaching/ exercises and then fit the bike to the positive changes you expect to see down the line. I guess this a great rationale for having a revised bike fit each year.
I don’t think we pedal the bike as much as the bike pedals the rider. Ie. The rider provides the momentum but the range of motion is fixed by the arc of the rotation which cannot be changed. The conscious decision to try & adjust the neuromuscular pattern when pedalling is so incremental that i challenge anyone to quantify the increase in efficiency
Trying to change pedalling action is not helpful in the short term, but potentially could be in the longer term.
What is your opinion about an oval chainring and the impact on knee and other muscles?
Hi Danie. I dont have any personal experience with Oval chainrings. I understand that they are supposed to improve the lever arm for when the crank is in the peak power position. However if you have looked at some of my previous videos you will know that I am a big advocate of shorter cranks so that argument doesnt really gel with me.
They are obviously still a niche product and some people will try them and stick with them but I suspect in a few years we will look back on them as a fad.
If you have knee problems, or are trying to optimise for certain muscle groups I am sure there are different/ better ways to achieve that.
I've at times played with this as many I am sure have done. It really is a mentally concentrated effort to pull as well as push on opposite extremities during the course of one revolution. To gain this function with effective results takes many years to get muscle memory working, at least for us non professionals. The idea of power on the push stroke is a relatively easy mental state. Pulling on the up stroke takes more mental effort as it interferes with the down. One of they ways I have tried to accomplish this is merely under the more relaxed riding. Many times incorporating it on hills while seated. It's easier to do while out of the saddle. To become more proficient takes much more time. I look at the stroke and break it down into degrees. From roughly 30 degrees before the top of the pedals highest position to again roughly 10-20 degrees after the top, there is a transition of what I gauge my self as the honeymoon area. This is my more relaxed, breathing or slack part of the up to power down part of the power stroke. As I round the bottom, again, the last 10-15 degrees is where the power of the down cycle stops producing power and from there is a transition beginning to no power, The 10-15 before coupled with 10-20 degrees of that same down now starting into the upward stroke is again, the breathing, relaxed position. One can say that depending on each individual, there can be as much as maybe 90, plus or minus, of degrees of each full stroke, per leg where the rider can experience recovery. Granted the down, power stroke is the most efficient of the complete revolution but to be fair, this may only produce roughly at best about 75 degrees of that 90 degrees where the most power is generated. The up or rear part of the stroke will at best, if the cyclist is proficient, generate possibly 60 degrees and out of that 60 degrees of upward rear stroke, they will only generate roughly 35% of that full revolutions power cycle. The upstroke can be a useful part if the rider entertains the idea that it can also be used to allow as part of the leg/muscle recovery. One will build a very high lactate threshold if done properly. Passing that though is where we tend to chew on the engine's longevity before the mileage gets completed.
Just my 2 cents folks. We all have our views for efficiency through the years of riding. I believe that each has their own madness or ways in which to accomplish their goals, whether in cycling or other areas. It seems I'm always evaluating myself, and at times my head gets placed in the sand, forgetting to pull it out when I'm stuck. The whole idea is, enjoy riding, it truly is a time when we can have at times, complete solidarity of mind, body and of nature which for myself at least, is the most enjoyable time of any day. Be happy safe out there folks.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Michael. I suspect there may be some gains to be made from deliberate long term pedal action "enhancement", but it will be difficult to work out in advance what the best options for each rider is, as everyone is different. Research is unlikely to come up with the answers for us as it would be a very difficult long term study to conduct.
It's funny how different bodies work. Becusee when I look at your position the saddle height looks too high for me and arms to much away from the hoods. I recently started lowering my saddle and have to say feel way better with lower setting from 78 to 76 within a year. I feel more planted, my L/R balance is now 50/50, I do not rock on the saddle even with very high cadence which I prefer. It also helped me with saddle sores. Also helps me get more aero and more relaxed on the arms. Any time I try to rise the saddle even slightly now I just end up with pain under the "balls area". My power numbers and performance is the best I've had. What's your thoughts on that, because on every measurements I've made with some AI bikefit apps it shows I should raise the saddle becuse of the knee angle. But i get zero knee pains. I had them before, when I've runned saddle higher.
Running a saddle too high typically causes pain behind the knee/hamstring area as compared to the knee, which occurs when the saddle is too low. I had the same issues with saddle sores as you when I was too high due to rocking, which caused irritation where my right leg meets my butt. I'm 5' 3" and just went from 170mm cranks to 165mm on my size 50 frame Domane. Riding with them today for the first time.
A lower saddle will definitely provide more stability, however it can cause problems with knee overload and start to impinge the hip at the top of the stroke. Some people can manage with it because everyone is different. If you are getting saddle discomfort at higher positions then I would say dont worry about going higher because it doesnt seem to suit you.
@@jeffreysaffir1375 I am 6'4" and have been riding with 160mm cranks since the start of the year. Best bike fit change I have ever made (Note though that this video shows my older "indoor bike" which is still on 175 cranks)
@@podiumphysio657 I posted this on the Trek Domane Lounge on FB: On a previous thread I discussed going from 170mm to 165mm cranks. Even though I had to get the power meter too (SRAM Rival) I decided to go ahead with the change especially given the fact I am 5' 3" and felt there was only an up side in my situation. I ordered them Monday and had them installed yesterday as well as having another fit to make sure things were in line with where they should be.
Just got back from my first ride with them. A huge success! This season I was in the mid 16's on most rides with an occasional low to mid 17 mixed in. I hit a PR today with an average speed of 18.8 mph on a 55 mile ride with 2500 feet of climbing. Pretty excited with the ride.
I definately noticed things during the ride that I liked. First of all, I was able to keep pace with the other riders better on long gradual climbs spinning faster, which allowed me to switch into a harder gear more efficiently. I was also able to close any seperation much faster this way. Normally I am towards the back in this situation on group rides but today I kept pace better. Climbing was easier as I didn't feel like I had to "get over the top" of my pedal stroke in comparison to previous rides. Even though I didn't have knee pain with the 170's it was more comfortable on my knees during. Felt things more in the quads which I prefer. I learned I would rather spin up a bit to propel myself forward instead of powering up with my legs. Cardio over muscle fatigue. I did have to make minor adjustments at the beginning of the ride based on the fit but once I did everything felt great. Because we raised the seat without raising the bars I can also flatten my back and get more aero in both the drops and the hoods. Very glad I experimented with shorter cranks. I will be putting my 170mm crank set up for sale after the results I had today. For me it was a win.
@@podiumphysio657 I only lowered the saddle 1-2 mm but it is enough to make a positive difference.
I honestly don’t think anyone can actually change their pedalling technique anyway, and research shows the same for cadence - your natural cadence is the most effective one for you.
The research seems to support that in the short term, attempts to change technique/ cadence or whatever else is futile as it degrades performance. It is less clear how much it would be possible to improve pedalling over months and years with drills and different coaching methods. This would be a much more challenging trial to run with so many variables to control.
@@podiumphysio657 Its logical, short term it should be worse, ur muscles grown in a way to suppurt ur technic, in long terms, ur muscles can develop to provide platform to a new technic, possible reaching higher cielling.
@@ThomasHubik I agree with you. It would be very interesting to try to construct a research project to study this.
Have noticed something similar to the" glide your foot forward" happening when pedaling hard at high cadence on short cranks to different degrees now that I think of it.
Becomes more noticeable when I ride my other bike with normal pedal, kicking my foot forward off the pedals sometimes.
I havent tried it myself. From a physiological standpoint it is a point in the pedal stroke where the glutes cant contribute much, so overall power production would be less here, however at higher cadence and lower torque it could be good use of the 3 Vastii muscles at the knee essentially performing a kicking action??
@@podiumphysio657 I don’t tend to focus much on pedaling technique because dropping to the drops seems to activate the leg muscles better. I guess it's similar to how loading the muscles works in deadlifting. More aero and power in one move.
@@myNamezMe Yes that will likely facilitate glutes more. I wish it was that simple for me but unfortunately with some pretty advanced osteoarthritis in my hips, getting down to the drops is no longer an option!
Riding different styles of bikes like mountainbikes or fixies can yield massive results
I think you are right. And will help the bike industry profits also!
Load of codswollop
LOL. had to look that one up. Interesting word...
www.oed.com/discover/a-load-of-old-codswallop/?tl=true