Stonewall and the History of Mafia Owned Gay Bars
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มิ.ย. 2021
- Not so long ago, almost every gay bar in New York- and most of the US for that matter- was run by the mob. But why? Come learn with me!
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Sources:
The Gay Metropolis: The Landmark History of Gay Life in America by Charles Kaiser
Stonewall by David Carter
The Mob and the City: The Hidden History of How the Mafia Captured New York by C. Alexander Hortis and James B. Jacobs
Queer Joints, Wise Guys and G-Men by Phillip Crawford Jr.
The Mafia and the Gays by Phillip Crawford Jr.
The Fierce Tribe: Masculine Identity and Performance in the Circuit by Mickey Weems
The FBI Files: David Petillo Did It In Drag web.archive.org/web/201701031...
Boys of Fairy Town: Sodomites, Female Impersonators, Third-Sexers, Pansies, Queers and Sex-Morons in Chicago’s First Century By Jim Elledge
Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World 1890-1940 by George Chauncey
Making History: The Struggle for Gay and Lesbian Equal Rights 1945-1990- A Oral History by Eric Marcus
Feds Tracked Mob Control of Gay Bars into the 1980s, DUNCAN OSBORNE www.gaycitynews.com/feds-trac...
Stonewall by Martin Duberman
The Three Lives of Malvina Schwartz BY HUGH RYAN hazlitt.net/longreads/three-l...
Photos
New York Public Library
Library of Congress
Getty Images
Randolfe Wicker
Lisa E Davis
LA Department of Water and Power Associates
Poor Little Peppina, 1916
![fellow fellow - Proud [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9uZF7BlUQPE/mqdefault.jpg)
Who else now wants a crime thriller/romance with a 1930s gay bar-mafia setting??? 🙈
You have my attention…
God who doesn’t? It’s so perfect
I'm here for it.
Can someone send this video and comment to Todd Haynes please?
YESSSSSS…!
so the recent joke that the I in LGBTI stands for Italian isn't as far fetched.
Yeah, the gay italian stereotype is actually kinda accurate. I mean, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, the list of famous gay or bi italians goes on
@@fangsabre yeah and strangely enough Italians are pretty homophobic too
@@yeahiamsadd2244 that's the Catholicism
@@fangsabre exactly
@@fangsabre Italians are much less religious than Americans. Most don't believe in any kind of God, let alone the specific doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.
I don’t know why “Part One: Da Mob” made me laugh so hard
U A FERRY
@@paulyricca3881 a boat?
@@mcfarofinha134 👴🏻 NO , A YO MOTHER
🧔🏿 WATT CHU LOOKIN AT MAC THE KNIF?
i'm italian and learning about how gay relationships were accepted among male italian immigrants in the early 1900s, given the current rather queerphobic climate in my country rn, was.....................something
gaming
I'm jealous, my country is the opposite and it sucks
only one state had anti-gay laws prior to the unification of italy (sardinia iirc) and subsequently imposed them onto the rest of the country (except sicilly, for some reason)
@@whoknows4175 willing to bet it was as a result of how powerful the influence of the mob was in Sicily throughout history
It’s very common for immigrants to be queer or queer-adjacent because by definition they are people who didn’t fit in at home. And who is likely to get involved in organized crime? People who don’t have other legitimate options: like Jews, ethnic minorities, and queer folk. So…yeah, the mafia is hella gay.
So the, “be gay, do crime” saying we have is intrinsically tied to our history. Nice to know lmao.
Considering it's still illegal to be gay in places like America and Japan, yeah it makes sense
@@ExtraThiccc
????????? what??? no??? the closest thing to the illegality of gayness in the united states would be, like, three native american reservations that outlaw gay marriage. and japan just doesn’t care. look to the middle east, russia and some bits of mainland asia if you wanna find modern anti-homosexuality laws.
@@themilkman6969 with the attitudes to queerness in the US and Japan, might as well be illegal
@@ExtraThiccc
in like 4 places i guess
You know what I love about the historical gay community? The sort of mutual (slightly benevolent sexism flavored) protectiveness of lesbians towards effeminate gay men, and gay men towards lesbians. IDK both groups being like "HOW DARE ANYONE HIT YOU LADIES" at each other is just cute.
🤮
Umm eww
agreed!
I don't want anyone laying a hand on the lovely lesbians and they feel the same about us gorgeous gays. 😌
We dont like people hurting our Bottoms
Just watched Goodfellas, Casino, and the Irishman this month which lead me to a bunch of TH-cam videos about the mafia recommended to me. Then all of a sudden, this video pops out!
Where's our Gay Bar mob movie directed by Martin Scorsese?
just when he thought there were no original ideas
We don't want scorsese to do it, we need a young LGBTQ+ director.
YES!!
I just want it to be big budget.
@@blaisegirl420 whats wrong with Scorcese? Hes a great director
This channel is seriously becoming one of my favorites. Glad TH-cam recommended.
Fr me too
fr!! she deserves so many more subscribers
@@nicoleliman11 looks like she's getting them though haha
Same.
ive been binge watching their channel for the past night hahaha cant get enough
Please don't remind that June is almost over I'm still stuck in march 2020
June may have ended, but Pride is Eternal.
Yeah, "finocchio" it's still a slur just like "fag" in the us
And at the same time in Naples the role of the fairy, that in neapolitan were often called "femminiello" (little/cute female), was very important in the lower classes, especially during the two World Wars
It's a very fascinating story lol
Finocciho's was the name of a hugely popular club in SF that opened in 1936 and closed in 1999. It was so popular throughout the 6+ decades that Sandra Bernhard references it in her Without You I'm Nothing from 1988, much as the Village People had referenced the Monster a decade earlier
No but you being a comic artist makes me so happy 🥺🥺 we love to see ot
Ikr it made me so happy :))
I really want to see a gay mob movies now. I think it would be particularly interesting to have a legit historical perspective on the way that sexual and gender identity were conceived of then.
The Italian attitude of “only faries are gay” mentioned towards the beginning is very very very prevalent in the Middle East today, also because genders are very heavily segregated
Yeah I was just thinking of this!
also prevalent in south asia
Ugh, nice to see we still have the well-to-do members of our community criticizing and roadblocking us. My cousin is out and married, but constantly makes his aggressively conservative opinions known, as does his husband. I don't understand it at all.
There's an old Doric Wilson play called "Street Theater" which is a telling of the riots. At the end of the play, two characters who might as well be from "Boys in the Band" show up and yell "You're revolting"
One of the drag queens/narrators yells "You bet your ass we are!"
It's the thing that makes middle men be cruel to those below them, a small amount of protection and perceived power. Gay cisgender men have always been the first ones to be accepted... Like that's great but they didn't take all of us with them, selling us out for respectability and appeal to the mainstream
@@vitazissel3671 i mean, you forgot the rich and the white in cis gay men. That's the part that makes those cis gay men more palatable. Black cis gay men were not and usually still are not seen as anything but transgressive and poor gay men are still being demeaned and beaten on the street. Being rich and white tends to keep you from feeling the brunt of any oppression.
@@Skag_Sisyphus honestly you are so right and I'm glad you said it. It's like how all the original fab give from queer eye for the straight guy were white dudes. Would four black men have received the same adoration from middle class white mom's? No way
@@vitazissel3671 lol That is incredibly astute because the answer is a huge no. I mean decades later and a wealthy, popular black rapper coming out caused an uproar. "cHiLdReN lIsTeN tO oLd ToWn Rd" And the like. it's really frustrating, as you pointed out earlier, to see the wealthy, white, cisgender, gay men sit atop a pile of the rest of our corpses (especially the corpses of trans children) and agree with the people killing us that we're asking for too much.
OMG not loitering lesbians!!!
Oh, and those photos just before you spoke about Anna Genovese, just soooo wonderful. Thanks for sharing all your hard work, much appreciated 🙂🐿
Great bandname though, The Loitering Lesbians. 👌🏻
@@KellyLenior ha ha yes true.
My friend and I have an ongoing list of potential band names, I’ll have to add this one to the list. 🙂🐿
I don’t know why you end each message with a squirrel, but I’ve decided I love it. These are the vibes with which I hope to emulate henceforth.
I really appreciate your non-cis-white-male perspective on mob history! It's clear you did the reading and you've done a good job at making it relevant.
6:20 what is bootlegging
What is your prejudice against cis people? I am a cis-gay male and proud of it. I also biracial and a few other minority labels. Trouble is that people want to label everyone to adjust to diversity. I for one do not care to be put in a box and labeled!
@@therealpinoyhapa who said they have an issue with cis people? Or even straights, whites, or males? It's evident that people who are part of the majority or dominant culture are often biased in their approach to historical events and can only see things from the perspective of nitpicked history. The dominant culture has a habit of deliberately leaving out historical context and pretending that minority groups did not have any influence or significance in the past because they can't imagine that the world was more progressive in some aspects back then than it is now. They prefer to see progress and culture as something that is linear. They prefer to think that because it's 2024 that the world has changed so much and that the world of the past is unrecognizable to the world we have now when in reality we share more similarities with people of the past than we are willing to admit. They look at history solely from the perspective of cis het white men and often ignore the perspective of minorities because their stories are often not what's taught to us in school or even in the media and it requires us to do deep digging. It's why there's the joke about "and they were roommates" is brought up when it comes to queer historical figures because historians typically like to view homosexuality, transgenderism, non white culture, feminism as new concepts that have only had historical relevance in the last 50 years and ignore the fact that these people existed before the 70's even if the terminology we have today wasn't the same as back then. They may not have used the same labels as we have today but they did exist. And because of this, when a cisgender historian talks about someone who was most likely transgender, they are more likely to argue that the person was not transgender simply because the person did not call themselves transgender or because they went by their ASAB pronouns or their birth name or because they didn't get a gender dysphoria diagnosis or because they didn't medically transition, or because the culture was gender segregated and sex was seen as the same as gender. Whatever their reasoning, this leads many people to think that transgender people did not exist prior to Caitlyn Jenner and that it's an entirely new phenomenon, when in reality it has existed probably since humans became self aware. Cis people often have a hard time placing themselves in the shoes of trans people and because of that they don't get how a lack of knowledge of gender dysphoria or trans people in the past could lead to trans people not being able to identify themselves as trans.
Came for the history, stayed for THE MOOMIN MUG!!
Around 25:00 sounds really, really, REALLY familiar... History really repeats itself, huh?
"It's too soon! We shouldn't ask for that yet. We should organize and wait."
Yep: it's too soon for equality.
Ev-er-y da**ned time!
POV: When the only way to celebrate pride in your country is to watch videos about gay people.
Yeah, I really enjoy these videos during pride as someone who lives in a small conservative city
Hang in there 🏳️🌈🫶 You are valid!
Your art looks so appealing! What a great idea, sponsoring yourself. Also, seconding the recommendation for Lackadaisy Cats comic. The art is beautiful, the characters are interesting, and there is mystery~
WAIT YOU'RE THE ONE WHO WRITES CUNNING FIRE????? i've been reading your comic for a pretty long time now, and discovered your channel pretty recently!!!!!! i had no idea you were the same person lmao, small world!!!!!
My god the term gay mafia just got a whole new meaning.
As a queer italian american, while I cant say I'm too proud of the mafiosi I am absolutely proud of my queer predecessors.
Insieme per la vittoria!!
(Together for victory!)
Insieme per la liberta!!
(Together for liberty/freedom!)
Ma che vittoria che parlo ti strunzu
💗🏳️⚧️
18:02 That's a lovely Moomin Mug. Thank you for another great video.
Nicely done! One thing: the division between the old guard -- like the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis -- and the younger activists was not nearly as oppositional as you make it out to be -- it was the Mattachine Society that hosted the meeting the night after the Stonewall raid that resulted in the formation of the GAA - the Gay Activist Alliance - and the bougie white cis gay guy president of the NY Mattachine Society who gave Marsha P Johnson a place to live for a decade (until her death) so she could carry on her activism. I was a gay student in NYC in the 70s (and definitely not in the Mattachine), and EVERY queer meeting was people arguing about inclusion, about tactics, about goals -- arguing is what we did. - the joke was if there were 4 queer activists in a room, there would be 5 organizations by the end of the meeting. The arguments about presentation were tactical: you needed gay activists putting on suits & Lesbian activists skirts, ones who knew how to get meetings with city hall - but those meetings wouldn't have worked without the demonstrators in the streets pressuring city hall - everyone knew we needed all of that happening (hence the 'alliance' in GAA). [historical note: 'gay' in the 60s and 70s meant roughly what 'queer' means today - it was inclusive of gay men, lesbians, bi-folks, trans-folks -- all under the umbrella term 'gay'. By the 80s, 'gay' had come to refer mainly to gay men, and other folks chose their own labels.] BTW, the bougie non-activist richer gays and lesbians were also a crucial resource for fund-raising - which was desperately needed (for bail, for lawyers, for renting space, etc). So if they were hanging out on Fire Island, I promise you that they were getting hit up for donations (and giving).
So great to hear from an elder gay! My respects to those who came before us and paved the way 🫡
Thank you for sharing ! This reminds me of hearing an account where someone from Fire Island helped paid for the giant condom that covered an awful politician’s house to shut him up.
I live in New York, I can say from experice that the neighborhood where stonewall was is still very gay.
The gentrifiers are doing their best to change that.
@@auldthymer That area is already pretty gentrified, it's still gay.
We've had gay cowboys, we've had gay pirates, im gonna need a gay mafia movie-
Once Upon a Time in America was so close...
So, the limited ethnic mobility had the Italian men in a sexual situation similar to prison but far more consensual.
Sometimes, other times not so consensual
Also. As a gay witch, I know I'm going to love your comic. Gonna check it out after pride this weekend!
I’m so glad you did this video! I actually have an old picture of my grandmother with her friends at the 181 Club! So its really cool to see it mentioned here
I always try to learn more gay history during pride. I'm really enjoying these. Thank you!
They really took be gay do crime literally
Be gay bootleg booze
"Cocktail in a mug" is a great mindset and I will be shamelessly using it from now on. Also, great video! I enjoyed it a ton
listening to this while painting a commission and drinking tea at barnes & noble makes me feel sophisticated
I didn't know this. Jojo and Lucky Number Slevin make more sense now.
I'm tempted to look into more historical cocktails now. This was a great video for Pride month and pairs well with the Netflix doc on Marsha P Johnson. I'm off to share it with friends.
For what it's worth, in some areas it's thought that people in general (not just werewolves or gay people) get angrier, crazier, and more violent on full moon nights. Seriously, the vet techs at the vet clinic I used to shadow at were talking about it, and also were completely convinced that days with a full moon always seemed to have more really weird animal injuries that came in than other days of the month. (They also thought it applied to animals as well as humans.)
I worked in a rest home, the elderly did not react well to the full moon.
Once a "fight" broke out between two elderly men, and we had a stripping incident. Those are the two memorable ones..
Sorry for the year late comment I just realized that!
I came into the comments specifically to see if anyone talked about this. One of my favorite fun facts about the moon IS the belief/superstition that a full moon brings with it madness and bad luck. It was heavily associated with witchcraft and the devil in many places throughout history
My mom works in a hospital and says it's always crazier on full moons.
I would kill to read an urban fantasy novel/comic where Stonewall was started by werewolves. That just sounds so delightfully over the top.
careful. you might make me actually enjoy learning history. in all seriousness though your videos are so well researched yet take on a super compelling narrative. i can't wait to see what videos you have planned :)
...oh, that's the oft joked about mob connection in my family. I legit thought it was a joke for the longest time because I'd never heard my aunt's married name come up in mob talk...until today.
That's gotta be surreal
That’s wild.
@@gekigami1791 No seriously because it’s Joe Cataldo and that’s my grandaunt’s son, grandson, and (according to census data) brother-in-law’s names. So when Kaz said Joe Cataldo I’m picturing the most coal mining, redneck, steelers fan, unironically wears a Fu Manchu moustache, country boy which does not match my image of “mafia”
Well, I'm going to blame you for getting me back into webcomics. And I knew as soon as the words "webcomic" and "bootlegging" were in the same sentence what would come. :D And now I desperately want a Netflix series about Mob Lovers. Gay Werwolf Mob Lovers. As always, an excellent essay. Thank you.
As my straight friend always says: " ain't nothin more masculine than two guys, getting it on." He accepts me in a strange way.
It would be really cool if you did a video about the AIDS epidemic
I love your hair! Also thanks for informing me about lgbtq+ history, i'm so happy i found your channel :)
In fairness, it’s a noted ER phenomenon that there’s an increase in “bizarre” cases on nights there’s a full moon. Plus, the moon controls the tides, and humans are like 70% water, so it makes sense that the full moon does have an effect on strong emotions in humans in general :)
Nah, it's pretty much bullshit. People who think it's a thing apply confirmation bias. And turning on your side effects the water in your body in relation to gravity more than a full or new moon.
I suggest 'Moonstruck: How lunar cycles affect life' by Ernest Naylor for some real, science stuff.
The only factor of difference is the sun's light reflecting over the entire half of the moon we see, the gravitational alignment with the sun is the same as on a new moon. Animals act differently for many reasons, one of which being that the extra light effects the actions of predators and prey.
th-cam.com/play/PLgRoK-eyLjok7JUOhySXlnSQHIx9G4KoM.html
You're such a legend. I've discovered your channel by coincidence and I'm in love with it! Love your job 😍💕
I love the way you talked about what happened at Stonewall!
I'm continuously glad I found your channel🌈❤
That Spielboat graphic killed me 😂
Also, I have no idea what's in any of those cocktails and I'm too lazy to go back through and Google them all, so I'm just imagining random ingredients. Who knew whiskey and Pine Sol went so well together?!
I love the way you teach history and all the subject matter that I would otherwise know nothing about!!
With allies like these...
As someone who likes seemingly unusual (and possibly little-known) connections that actually make sense upon closer examination, I found your discussion about the mob and gay bars fascinating and well-nuanced. Same as well for the one you made about Bram Stoker, with heavy emphasis on his connections to Oscar Wilde (which I've usually seen mentioned in passing). Your drollness is an added bonus.
Subscribed!
You’ve got an awesome channel. This was such an informative video. Forgive me for shifting coasts but I’m a Los Angeles native (and present resident of Hollywood: the concept and the neighborhood). And your video has me wondering if The Black Cat on Sunset Blvd up in Silverlake was owned by the Mob back in 1967 when there was that big protest after the cops busted up the place and beat patrons because they were offending by men kissing men and women kissing women on New Year’s Eve at midnight. Thanks for such an entertaining channel. ✌🏽
This is SO SO SO informative this is literally community service I LOVE U
So happy you came up in my suggestions! I’m going to check out your comic. It looks amazing!!
Finocchio also means fennel! Most interesting.
I love that you're creating content relevant to the month. Always really cool history that I never knew about, but really like learning!
about the full moon thing? i think he was referring to people in general getting roudier under it; in the south here, when the kids be getting rowdy we always seem to comment “must be the full moon” or “the full moons comin” 😂
This channel is one of the best things Iv discovered this year. Thank you for the vids🙏
I just discovered your channel. You are well spoken and interesting. It’s like having a conversation where I mostly listen with a friend I just met.
I’ve been binging all of your videos this week and I have no idea how they don’t have more views! The time and care you put into each video really shows through and each one has been more interesting then the last
Kaz's videos are my comfort! Thank you!
YOU UPLOADED IM SO EXCITED OMH
id really like to see you do a video on how the stonewall riots inspired the mafia and gay subtext in the film adaption of Goncharov
I find every single one of your videos so insanely interesting. You reignited my passion for history. I can't wait for your next video :)
hell yeah!! another Kaz video!!
Amazing history! Thank you for making/sharing this video.
Kaz, loving your content!! So cool and classy how you present the history of our community 💕
I had no idea who Lyndecker and Charles were until I saw YOUR video about them. When you told that story about the drink, it just broke my heart all over again. What a love story!❤😢
Okay maybe I'm having a moment, but can you imagine a movie about Stonewall and the camera is moving through the crowd so you see all of these different stories about how it started are all happening at different places in the bar, and then you see a hand grab the brick or shotglass and as they start to throw it (the moment that was most widely known story as the start of the riot) the person changes from Marsha to Stormy to Sylvia to all these other people from the community, showing anger and fear and joy in that throw, because in the end it doesn't matter what one person did that one thing, the reality is that we have always been a community and we do things as a community and we share the glory as a community and im sorry im probably just having a moment here, I'll go cry.
Really excited to read your webcomic, thanks for plugging it ^^
it is sooooooooo good
This was some fablous detective work! Onward to read your comic!
This is all such good content o adore all the historical video essays
Thank you for this!! I did a project on Stonewall for school a couple years ago and was forced to cut out most of the mob stuff because of word counts. I was so sad
I DIDNT REALIZE YOU MADE CUNNING FIRE I LOVE IT THANK YOU FOR YOUR HARD WORK
Love that your channel is growing!!
I love your videos and really appreciate the amount of research you do (and sources in the description!). Hope your channel and community will grow bigger soon. Unfortunately I have impaired hearing therefore often it is hard for me to fully enjoy the video and to understand everything. I know that adding subtitles can be very time consuming, but I would be really really happy if you could consider this option.
Thanks! I have impaired hearing too so I feel you. TH-cam auto-generates english subtitles and theyre up on this video, but I know they’re not 100% accurate. I’m in the process of trying to find an easy way to better caption my videos! 😊
This is only the second video I’ve watched of yours but you are officially my favourite channel on YT
Thank God I found you!!!! I'm so excited to watch more of your videos. This was an awesome educational AND entertaining video! Keep up the great work ;)
You are my new favorite TH-cam channel! I love your humor and how you present each topic. I love learning and you make it feel like I'm listening to a super intellectual friend over a drink. ❤
I love your ability to empathize with different points of view from people in history. It really helps imbue the history with humanity!
I think it's interesting to show how southern italy and Naples in particular had an acceptance for gay people (more gay men than women) that probably derives from greek colonization in ancient times, Magna Grecia, and that had in the 20th century shaped the relationship between the mob and LGBTQ+ people of NYC. The greeks acceptance of gay sex survived catholicism and (and that's my opinion) that's how the neapolitan third gender figure, the femminiello, came to be. Femminiello was (and is) a person halfway between a cis femme gay man and a straight trans woman and was considered a bringer of good luck; they participated in diferent rituals like the "fake birth" of children, the "tammurriata dei femminielli" and even catholic celebrations. I think that northern italy was instead pushed on a more homophobic view by the austrian domination, contrary to the south.
Keep in mind that parts of what I write are personal thoughts, you can look more into it by research on femminielli.
What's weird is that they also had a "no bottoms" rule in Greece where they discriminated them but turned a blind eye to tops. And there was a group accepting of weird pedophilic relationships between teachers and students. Ancient culture is just weird in general.
wow just binged all of your videos, looking forward to reading your comic!
Your channel is so well-researched and interesting!!
these videos are so cool and truly deserve more attention. been binging your channel the past few days and haven’t found one I didn’t enjoy lol
i love watching and rewatching your videos. youre so wonderful at what you do and i learn so much from this channel all the time 🖤
THANK YOU for this! Helped a lot with my history assignment❤
i just wanted to say your channel has become a place of comfort for me and i really think you should start a podcast, i've been listening to your videos every night to wind down after work, and my only problem is that i just don't have enough videos to watch!! keep making good content! :)
Such a cool subject matter and well produced video!
Came for Pride history, stayed for the Lackadaisy reference. Love your channel!!
This was very cool! I learned a lot and am so happy the algorithm brought me to this channel. Also I'm finally getting my hair cut next week -- big inspiration from the Titus hairstyle in your short hair video, thank you, and happy end of Pride, all! 🧡
Ayyy, first time catching a video of yours the day it pops up!
A very informative and wonderful video!! Thank you so much for condensing this information for us!!
You are a very good speaker. Articulate and really good inflection in your voice. I could listen to you narrate all day.
you are hilarious in this and it’s so fun to watch!!
Kaz, your videos, they're wonderful. I never knew all this about Stonewall before, it's very interesting.
i will be looking up ur comic right after this video!!
Ugh... I usually get in arguments went i point out that Spartans AND Romans slept together. They only slept with the opposite sex for procreation.
Thank you for this video. Is is great just like all the last ones i have watched.
The belief that same sex relations was aceoted in soarta comes from a bias source its been refuted many times
soarta practices it even less than every other greek state and frowned upon any man who didnt marry and have kids if u did not marry a woman and have kids u had to run around naked in winter
Sparta one the few places woman could walk around freely
Also the idia of homsexuality in greece comes from early misunderstandings of pederasty which was not the same sex relations that the lgbtq comunity make it out to be It was a teacher student relation.
in fact in aincent greek culture if u let another man penetrate u its a humiliating and shamful act seen by the soartans as a vioe act
The idia that sparta acepted and praised same sex relations comes from Xenophon a athenian not a spartan
The work of Aristotle and spartan law itseld actualy contradicts this narative
Pederety did become sexual in many city states because most city states had laws banning woman from public till marriage yet sparta lacked said laws and men married much younger.
But most examples of same sex relations in aincient greece were between an adult and a minor and almost every case would soon have a wife and family
In rome sexuality was still nit uet a thing sex in rome same as greece was seen in active and passive dominence Same sex relations tended to be a slave and a owner
Major acounts of same sex relations in rome tend to be from hadrian and nero both which did not officialy be with their same sex partner In hadirans case was a adutruss relationship frowned upon by his people and nero well a slave boy he castrated
the modern view of love and sexuality does not apply to rome or greece at all their was societies who closer to modern views on same sex relations but they were not the greek or romans
One of romes enemies the cekts did oractice same sex relations and their own version of marriage was also exstended to same sex couples and was a common sight in their culture the romans preformed genicide against most mainland celts
@@demonic_myst4503
So, i might have gotten the fact they slept together wrong.....
They had families then decided to get with their slave is an even better argument for me.
Thank you.
@@josephhudson7378 im just saying its not really the same as being pro gay it was all power dynamics and domination with the romans
@@josephhudson7378 “They only sleep with the opposite sex for procreation” I highly doubt that. Sure some of them engaged in homosexual activities (cuz they were obviously gay/bi) but heterosexuals were always the mass majority. I think people tend to over highlight the fact that some romans and Spartans in the past slept with either sex so exclude the many who only slept with the opposite sex (for more than just procreation) and even people who slept with only the same sex (whom did not give af about procreation)
@@demonic_myst4503 those power dynamics and domination were gay af tho 😂
I’m totally going to check out your webcomic! It sounds awesome!
Marvelous video and your outfit is perfect. And you make a comic?! With a coven of witches!? Literal legend.
super interesting!! I listened to this while I was journaling : )