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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ค. 2024
- What was Swain like BEFORE his rework?
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#BeforeTheRework #Swain #LoL - เกม
![แฉ [2/4] 11 ก.ค. 67 ‘ขวัญ อุษามณี’ เผยความจริง 16 ปีที่แล้วเกิดอะไรขึ้น? | GMM25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/K4pXnUiObbk/mqdefault.jpg)
Swain's old joke played well on the juxtaposition between his title and his play style.
"If we approach from these coordinates we can flank them and then.... aw screw it. Let's just morph and eat them."
I absolutely love the series "Before the rework" and thank you for doing one for my main champion. I don't know if you read my comment on your other video suggesting Swain but thank you either way! Love your content
I think they did a good job of re-embracing Swain's old playstyle with the new mini-rework. He's a lot more of a drain tank than a burst mage now.
And is still missing the neutral component.
@@N12015 Do you mean he's missing a neutral game?
@@glizzygobbler3046 Indeed. He's missing his powerful, cohesive neutral game. Old Swain was all about that neutral game, Zoning and DoTs. New one has a very bad neutral due to his poor range. The guy who made the old Swain never touched the old swain and it shows.
I would say unironically that the old one resembles more the concept of "master tactician" in practice than the new one, due to how it was so neutral focused and had habilities with surprising dept and synergy despite being so simple, while the new one has poor cohesion, bad neutral and a lack of dept in his kit. If people isn't bashing Riot is just because they despise range toplaners.
@@glizzygobbler3046 Sorry for ranting for so long. Is just that everyone here doesn't know what makes a rework good or bad.
@@N12015 I think taking out the neutral game is a plus since it creates a contradiction with even his old R. On top of that I feel like it’s healthier for the game in general for swains abilities to not be so dotty/passive in nature since (especially in solo lanes) it’s rather obnoxious to go against someone who just plops down a raven to deny melee champs. Kinda similar to how unhealthy Shen’s old Q was. Not everything in the game needs to be preserved.
I disagree that the old Swain wasn't a tactical character. His E was a strong ability in and of itself but it's true power shone in it's ability to empower your less reliable abilities, Q would break after the opponent left it's range and W had such a long startup that you weren't landing this unless you managed to place your target in the perfect position where they couldn't dodge it and that's where Swain's EQW combo really shined. His Ultimate was also not as simple as just "DERP PRESS WOOP" but the activation of the bird cost a ridiculous amount of mana and maintaining it also cost an obscene amount of mana. There was no combination of items that allowed a Swain player to stay in Bird form compared to Anivia would could reach a point of permanent ultimate. Even full build Swains would still need to manage their mana. Swain was also the slowest stacker of Tear of the Goddess who would actually build Tear items, a lot of mana hungry characters would build Tears but they were able to stack it decently fast, Swain was an exception because he was a dedicated combo mage who needed his entire combo available at any given moment. He didn't have any filler spells he could throw out mindlessly to last hit minions, if he used his E he couldn't threaten you with damage, if he used his Q he couldn't reliably combo off his E for fast damage or lead into his W, if he used his W he couldn't escape or threaten kills and throttling his ultimate would OOM him after 5 uses.
God do I miss Swain's mana restore, nowadays you'd feel like your main damage source is spamming Q, but you're always low after 4-6 shotgun fingers, not to mention E's and W's
Old Swain used to have relatively long ability ranges so you could use nevermove to try to catch an enemy running away but then you wouldn’t have anything else to keep them in place which was crucial to get full damage from beatrice which stayed in a spot and your ult which is based around you. So his CC really ended up being his key ability, without anyone else it was hard to stop enemies from running away but in a big teamfight a single cast of nevermove could win you the fight considering how large the ability is for a non ult cc
This.
When Riot gutted Swain's CC, they killed Swains teamfighting.
Try to do skillshots in League of Mobility.
Swain is my favorite mage, and the recent mini-rework was pretty damn awesome. Finally I can play him as a true AP draintank and not bound to picking Ultimate Hunter every game. But now I see why people miss old Swain, he was pretty damn powerful with his toggleable ult.
Old Swain was insane on urf, so much fun. You'd just constantly be in ult, nobody could come near you or they'd just die. Probably one of the most fun urf champions.
@@masync183 lmfao that sounds fun
Prerework Swain was my absolute favorite champ in the entire game. I lost a great deal of my will of playing this game when they removed my boi.
so true... I loved playing the old Bilgewater-Swain. I stopped playing League 2 years ago, because both of my main champs got "reworked" (Swain and Evelynn) :c
@@leachimwunder Kind of on your same boat. I play at most 1 aram every two weeks, and never on my own accord, because they removed my two favorite things from this game: the old Swain and the Twisted Treeline.
@@AcaciaAvenue the og twisted treeline 😭 only true ogs remember that one
@@921Ether one of my earliest league memories is being ulted from bush by a ww while pushing top lane tt. It was jump scare incarnate. :')
It was the same thing for me with Fiora
The real problem with current swain is that his abilities ranges are all over the place, making him not as consistent or as much of a zone-control battle mage as the older swain. For example, his q and ult are best when on top of the target, his E is best at max range (800 or so units), and his w is best either at ultra long range or only after E and is nowhere near as consistent if they have any tenacity. Also his single target damage now sucks, especially into targets that can sustain through his ult, since his older point-and-click torment + beatrice combo was a lot better for zone control and single-target damage, especially as torment also buffed his ult damage.
Pre rework swain was on a different level... he was the true boss... transforming into a bird every 10 secs or even less depending on Cool down Reduction... the fact you actually life stealed them... not just made it look like you are life stealing like this new one... the old one actually did things.... till this day I still say " a calculated risk" that'd a line from old swain
and it felt so satisfying, every. single. ability.
The Swain VGU has been nothing but a spit in the face for old Swain players and the most recent changes are just that as well. They don't do anything to actually make Swain feel like he used to. In general, Swain's actual gameplay is nothing alike. Old Swain thrived on laning against champions most mages hated, with a double dorans/catalyst/seekers allowing you to easily kill assassins and bruisers. You traded an explosive level 6 for a somewhat consistent higher base power in fights. At the expense of direct 1v1 potential at 6, old Swain gave you the tools to 2v1, provided you knew their power spikes and played around them. New Swain just plays like any other mage, no longer having these matchup dynamics and no longer having the zone control provided by his old Q and W, but instead trading it for an explosive Q and ult.
Swain was reworked by people who had never played him, and this is till true for the people in charge of these changes. As a result, anything you try to say will only fall on the deaf ears of people who don't understand. It's been over 4 years since they killed him and at this point I suppose the only thing I can do is thank Riot for the years he was in the game and curse them and his rework team for what they did to him.
I understand a lot of people miss the old swains kit, but visually swain was definitely improved. I still can’t believe one of his abilities was a vibrating bird that puked lasers
i like the old style more , now he is much to "noble" not the crappy old guy anymore .
@@NonpainThe point of old Swain design was support the idea of Usual Suspects movie
Im still mad they reworked my boy for no reason It was my favorite champion by far ill never find the same joy in the game and dont have a real main champ since then i hope they will release some sort of classic server with all the old champions :(
THIS! This is what I don't get.. THERE WAS NO REASON, they didn't consult with Swain mains they didn't give a shit, just straight up fucked us.
same v_v
New swain is beyond better
@@keorinkoluexl6365 no its not
@@keorinkoluexl6365 has been nothing but a balance nightmare for his entire existence
I miss the old swain ;c
Old swain was the best, had the most fun playing him due to who ever I versed had no idea how he worked.
What I miss with new swain is the zoning factor his old Q provided. His Q and W had fairly long range and on top of that the Q lasted couple of seconds in specific playing with enemy positioning, so if you had lane dominance you could make enemy laner cry a river about not being able to cs. Also you had almost no CD on Q and R so once you hit nevermove in already winning lane the all in that you had basically always available was so fatal for the lane oponent.
Although new swain is very all rounded battlemage I kinda miss the zoning and brute force and its constant availability around which old swain was built.
Really love this kind of video nice job man
I miss old swaing so so much, he was my main for half a decade with anivia :(
I think the only thing I miss about old Swain is the mana passive regen, other than that I really like new Swain, his kit is pretty unique and fun to play
Disagree. It broke my heart and my will to play League when they removed Cane Swain. New Swain felt way more generic to me. Looking forward to giving the new mini rework a try since they seemingly remembered what made Swain fun/good, but only cautiously optimistic.
New swains old e and paasive was more fun imo.
swain passive after the rework had a mana restoration , but his mana costs where too high(just like old swain) teu reduced the costs and removed the mana restore.
@@pedrofelipekuhnvolz299 Yeah, they actually tried keep his mana regen twice. His Q originally restored 3% percent of his max mana when it killed something, but they later moved it to his passive (and changed the restore to 4-7% level dependent), and then completely removed his mana restore in season 10.
@@derekdellinger9589 Bro his ult is crazy good now, at higher levels its only on like a 30 second cooldown and to top it off lasts a crazy amount of time if ur able to keep enemies inside which is actually REALLY easy to do considering how basically all his kit revolves around zoning enemies. Getting stacks also actually MEANS something now. After a small skirmish u can come out with 50 extra PERMENANT health FOR THE REST OF THE GAME. Apart from his damage which kinda falls off mid game, he feels fantastic.
There is one notable big issue with this video, kind of surprising to me considering the amount of research that has gone into your other Before the Rework Videos - the Old Swain Q referenced in this video was itself added in a Mini Rework in patch 6.9. The broader aspect of that Mini-Rework was increasing Swain's AOE power and farming capabilities, while slashing his sustain against single targets and broadly reducing the availability of his spells thus demonstrating a very consistent trend in how Riot has balanced Swain, by slowly and surely pushing his spells into being more spaced out yet bombastic.
Old swain having E increasing all types of damages including true damage from ignite was a staple too.
Could you imagine the old swain with the new runes and items?
Conqueror
Pressence of mind
Manaflow
Riftmaker to heal even more
Demonic embrace
Liandry + Demonic Embrace and then just tank items with Conqueror or Grasp
Something note worthy about the old Swain E was that it also increased Swains true damage, strengthening ignite or potentially smite if you where willing to take him in the jungle.
i like to call Swain's basic skills in this mode;
Q: UNLIMITED POWER!!!(in Palpatine's voice)
W: Sauron's eye.
E: GET OVER HERE!!
idk about the ult 😅
R: Not even my final form
The Ult is: The big Succ.
people dont realise how fun old swain was. My only main and gutted about the rework. His ultimate is NOT similar now and was wayyyy better i wish it was reverted
I'm sad that Swain wouldn't recognize Beatrice out of the other birds, as if she's not special to him :(
Ols swain when they change his Q that the bird can fly to targeted area was the best version of him. My main from 2k12.
I miss the look of the old ult, I hope they give him a skin eventually where he transforms into a giant bird demon
Tyrant and Dragon master swain changes how he looks when ulting iirc. dragonmaster changes the way he cast his Q on ult as well
@@akefox6439 The dragon master is the closest, but as for the other, im looking for an actual full on transformation, not an aura
pretty sure tyrant turns him into a giant bird demon
Tbh, you omitted one part which sounds small, but does a lot for the feel of his character - his W and old Nevermove.
Basically, it's a skillshot that is very firmly not meant to hit without help(ally CC, your own slow). It always had quite a large range to make up for that. Its big area and long range combined basically made it like a zoning field.
And I really liked how they amped exactly that up by making it extreme range. It does not need to hit to make an impact - it is still a CC effect when it doesnt hit, which is quite interesting. Good old(and new) Swain players often used it to force enemy movement, not really caring about it hitting.
New Swain has got way less payoff for hitting it(no root, just slow) - which was likely a balance call - yet it still remains the same feel, enhanced by its extreme range - in the right situation, its a CC, a forced move, which can be quite impactful. I like how they amped this up with new W. Yet, on the other side, they gave Swain a smoother tool to actually land W with his new E. Overall, I think those were quite smart changes - main reason new Swain was in a dubious state was due to numbers(mainly having 4+passive instant damage abilities, all with a base damage), his kit not aligning with those numbers(Wants to be a persistent threat, yet was extremely front-loaded on his damage) and itemization(mage itemization is absurdly lopsided, due to all those rather extreme damage effects - liandries, rabadons, void. AD is also far easier to scale for different types of champs due to its baseline effect).
His newest version is, in my opinion, an attempt to(finally) bring him back to his original design(AoE DPS/Midrange control mage). Tbh, just today I thought about how hard they had to cut down on his AP ratios to make it worthwhile to not build Rabadons/Void every game.
I played alot of old swain before the rework and I honestly love the current iteration of swain I just haven't gotten around to playing it more yet
I miss Beatrice the pet bird, and his old dance. Old swain had an amazing dance.
Miss the old Swain loved how you can even play him on AD because of his e which caused him to deal 20% more damage, this counts even for auto attacks
his auto animation was atrocious though lol (not the look but the feel, last hitting was horrible)
@@ThePainkiller9995 oh it was terrible but playing him and Vlad back in the day really thought you how to effectively last hit.
It is finaly here, my beloved swain
I started playing LoL very recently, around 2021 Christmas, and after playing Swain mid for the first time, even though I was against a Zed, and knew nothing of the matchup, or how to play correctly as Swain, thus getting my ass handed to me, I still liked his gameplay. I personally like his W, specially since it can give vision of jungle camps, to know where the enemy jungler could be, or to just drop one W in a lane to help your teammate before you get there
My fav champ before the rework :( rest in peace, sweet prince
I miss the old Swain, he was my most played champ until the botched surgery that was his rework.
I miss you Old Swain. You were truly the best
Pre-rework Swain had such a different game loop than today. Then you could land root for extra damage - now you must land root for any damage (I'm a W max sup Swain).
Old combo was disengage with WEQ, Q/autos for waveclear. New combo is land E then W-auto-Q. He has no disengage, and is an agressive sup.
If you go mid you max Q for waveclear and don't have kill pressure early because of mana. (Either trying to kill or waveclear.)
i Know this means nothing but Swain is the only champion in League history where I prefereed the champion before their rework/VGU
i also preferred evelyn pre rework. i mained her mid. her stealth from level 1 lets you play a ton of mind tricks on people. lol
i miss old swain he was my main top and mid pick and i use to always do well with him
all i miss from old swain is his dance
Rito did us dirty by getting rid of that weird old man with a bird busting the best moves league dancefloor could ever provide
I love this series but I wish you’d include how these champs were used in competitive play before their reworks
Becoming a lovecraftian bird monster is so much cooler than just being a dude with wings.
As a new player, discovering all of these characters for the first time and knowing their past is great
I miss old swain, roa, frozen heart, spirit vissage and youl never die
Visually swain went from gromp creppy old as locking dark mage to Lucius Malphoy greezy edge Lord. Raven demon to Bad boy Angel. Beatrice as ability to pointless makeup.
Two vids on my mains:swain galio Thx
BTW :Do you plan a video about taric rework?
I really wish they would just make his ultimate toggle again. Especially now that he’s back to a drain tank. It’s really awkward when a skirmish breaks out and you don’t have your R up
It's not awkward you just become useless lol. His winrate is like 46% or something. RIP
You're gonna make me cry a lot! Especially if you've discussed Talon Before the rework 😭😭
will Ryze be the 100.000 subscriber special?
I loved how he played in the old game.
I considered fake-cripple Birdman being replaced by Lucius Malfoy a personal insult to me and solidified by choice to stop playing League after a couple years away from it. It didn't matter if he became more viable or not, the visual change was simply too great for me.
It hurts because he's a half-important lore figure since he's head honcho of Noxus and he will inevitably be involved with Arcane and it'll bethe Lucius Malfoy version instead of the old one.
As an old swain player back in season 5 what you said in this video is spot on for the most part but I'd like to elaborate on a few more points.
For me with the inital rework the biggest disconnect between old and new r isn't the CD but that you had to choose between being tanky or deal burst damage, and if you chose to do burst you had to be 100% sure you were going to kill your targets otherwise you didn't have much else to offer in a teamfight and that just felt bad, and unfortunately this part of the r didn't get addressed until his newest mini rework which thank God for that.
Another thing that felt horrible on him is when they removed the mana return from his kit entirely which is the the straw that broke the camels back and caused him being shoved out of mid lane and being another 'mage support that can't lane in mid anymore so where else are they gonna go'. Although I did find a good place for him as an apc with a cc support.
So with the recent mini rework solving these 2 issues I had with rework swain really revived the champ again for me, and now I'm waiting for the durability update to see if I can put my boi back in the mid lane.
forgot to mention that beatrice was reworked later to an area where it attacked enemies in prio order, kinda good in wave clear!
I absolutely hate this rework, it gave me goddamn depression, it's that bad. I love OGSwain and think about him every damn day. He's just a bootleg Game Of Thrones character and I laughed diabolically when that show ended badly, further dating this rework. It's also ageist and ableist, Swain was one of the few visably disabled champions in the game with his limping gait and cane. He also has no mystique like OGSwain did, there no answers to how he got his limp, why he covered his face all the time and how did he and Beatrice come to be? Now he goes goes around talking exposition to the piont you want to gag him.
OGSwain meant the world to me, I started rescuing Pigeons in part because he showed me how awesome birds are.
I was reminiscing about this actually
old swain was so good, I wish they hadn't reworked him
i miss old swain with rod of ages
Old Swain in URF was so fun to play, his ulti never did finish and you could put ravens everywhere.
I loved the "majesty" style of the old one but they did a good job with this rework.
Swain is always that champion that aren't picked that much before the rework but whenever someone did pick him, he always wins the game.
His W is enough to ruin a jungler's day and his SUCC ultimate makes him tanky.
One of the most pointles reworks. Old Swain was great.
disagree. old swain was just not interesting at all.
@@HalfOtaku old swain's kit filled his role as a battlemage sustain mage. Was it perfect? no, everything relied on his root, and there were 2 point and click abilities. That said... He didn't have a bad kit at all, just outdated. All he needed was a touch up. a TOUCH UP, not a full on remake, which is what this is. Evelynn, Urgot, Warwick, Corki, Xerath... All those reworks modernized the champions while still maintaining their role in the game. But not swain is just NOT a battlemage sustain mage. He's closer to a support burst.
I didn't realize how different the current swain is from post rework
1:46 why has Swain the picture of Khartus?
I used to love old swain. Was one of my mains. Absolutely hate the rework. They gutted him.
Ah yes, the time when URF Swain would turn him into a permanent bird monster.
Late as hell but for some reason the clip showing old Swain has old Karthus splash in the the little picture! I need to get out more...
While I loved old Swain, I also really like the new one. I definitely prefer the new gameplay to the old. My only main hangups are visual. When the only thing you keep is the face itself, wouldn't it make sense to make a Traditional Skin, even if that practice was otherwise discontinued? And he should go more beast/demon mode for his ultimate (but this has since been addressed in skins). Lastly, the old Tyrant had that really neat prowling animation that I miss in the new one.
The new swain change just hits different when you hit mid to late game with 800 bonus health. It really feels like nobody can kill you.
not really, its a weak passive not really useable in a game thats designed to last 20-25 mins top
Old Swain felt unkillable even when be was behind
tl;dr without even watching the video, it's it not at all faithful to his past self, it's a complete replacement to the old swain
I can’t say I played old Swain, and I mostly like the newer changes, but god damn if I’m going to miss chain CCs. I hope they bring it back, even if it’s only in his demonic form.
I used to main swain for a couple years and was terrified when I read about his rework, but I must say the new Swain is fun to play although I do wish they kept the same kind of ultimate since my playstyle was centered around draining people while having infinite mana and spell vamp
also a tip for newer Swain players and this is something I see so many people not do, if you hit E and have W up place the W between you and your enemy and use the E reactivation to drag them into the W
So thats why he asks his birds which one is Beatrice on his emote 1
though i like new swain a lot, i do miss his old ult, as i like close range persistent battlemages (reason i switched to asol and azir) and i kinda liked new swain initially but i missed the persistent raid boss dmg that old ulti could pump out. i played the new one in mid and support and then stopped.
now that they changed his ulti to be reliant on nearby enemies, i've grown to like him a lot more as the whole drain tank aoe mage thing is really appealing to me and the reason i played old swain
You look familiar
@@hello-gx6oi commented on another video probably
@@sonny259 your profile picture is recognizable lol
@@hello-gx6oi it's cheems legoshi
The newest version of swain is much closer to his old kit, but it still feels non-cohesive, even moreso than old swain, for one simple reason: the w. swain's w has no place in his kit other than thematically, and honestly it's really really strange to me that it's still there. between swain's q shotgun effect, e pulling targets closer to you, and r draining nearby targets, it seems pretty obvious: he's a mage that takes the back line and forces them to be close to him, the frontline. but then there's the w. a huge range vision enabler with a slow and a janky timing aspect. It feels completely out of place, and doesn't line up with his kit's power fantasy at all. it's like giving akali an ally healing effect on her shroud. it certainly does something, but it seems completely out of line with her assassin playstyle. The w is, in my opinion, the biggest rework blunder in league history, as they took a champ that, while strange and not exactly interactive, was cohesive, and split it into 2 separate champions stuck in one body. Frankly, I would've preferred they entirely scrapped old swain and replaced him with a more thematic commanding general playstyle over this weird half and half middleground.
THIS. Many Swain mains have said that now that they were trying to make him a true battlemage, W should have been gone, as it kinda messes up what range Swain is more comfortable with. One suggestion I Saw was replacing the eye with Demonflare (second R Cast) as it would make Swain more oppressive on teamfights even with R down
I wish that W was like the old Q, to deter approaches.
@@gojiratar1132 I personally would suggest a movement option or a defensive option, so that he could have SOME usability in early solo lanes. perhaps he channels before leeching all surrounding enemies' movement speed and stealing 1 soul shard from each. this would both keep enemies in his range if he wanted them there or allow swain to have some chance of escaping ganks without phase rush
his W is simple to just confirm off of his E though?
@@Doublejho but that wastes a lot of the power budgeted to the ability, being the range and the vision. It would feel more at home on an artillery mage like xerath than a frontlining battle mage like swain.
His most recent incarnation is the best he has felt ever
I already want the pull on any cc back. It fell in-line with my tank support swain playstyle.
Yeah, that's exactly the gameplay that most Swain players hated though and that's why it got removed. Swain is an unhealthy support in soloQ and noone wanted him to be a support to begin with. Most of his playerbase were mid laners. He is still a good botlaner though, just not so OP compare to mid and top that you could only play him bot.
Swain is one of those champs where I love and miss the old swain but love the new swain as well
its like they are two completely different characters , right ... .
0:20 Karthus portrait?
Xerath next?
I miss old Swain :(
should we get firms so we can get back the old swain
Not to mention he get changes last time also when he was old one his q was changed rly hard, before it didnt deal bonus dmg to mininions and swain was horrible farmer... Still like him before rework more, i was feel power of deamon - right now hes simple old grumpy guy...
Anyone remember when Swain could pull enemies who hit the blast cone?? Good times.
i miss old swain but i have liked all the forms of new swain. like urgot i miss bullying people mercilesly but new urgot is fun.
It's throwing me off that Swain's old portrait looks like Karthus's old portrait. Did it get change when Karthus was released?
his old ult was way cooler than the new one
I think they did a very smart rework with him... even though I love the old Swain...
I quit league when they killed Swain for me with this. Used to be my main for the longest time.
I'd love to see a Ryze episode...
As an old Swain player…. The new one, even post mini rework, is still not very faithful. Even the main designer of new Swain said that he hadn’t played old Swain, so it’s easy to miss what made old Swain him.
Old Swain was a CRUEL LANE BULLY. He was easily able to smack assassins and other mobile types around with his brutal E dmg amp and AA’s. He peaked around mid game with ROA + Zhonya’s, then fell off. His biggest strength was his ability to shred down those squishy targets without having to rely on hitting skillshots. The trade off was his low mobility and range.
New Swain is terribly weak in lane, having to play on the back foot till level 6 or 9, and even then only finding his footing in skirmishes and objective fights. His level one is a shadow of its former self, and he’s now COUNTERED by assassins, instead of being the Assassin destroyer.
@@hashtagmenheras But you agree with me, that old Swain's lane bully identity was destroyed in favor of making another AOE scaling mage, of which the game has 10 already....
"When speaking objectively, single defining casts certainly feel more tactical"
You got me there lmao. I'm hoping to take more time and proofread on the next one.
Old swain was the only one I play back in the days,now I don't play anymore..
Just on wildrift
Old Swain was way much funnier than the current Swain.
i miss old swain i would pop off on him
Do vlad or sej. So crazy to think that vlad was categorized as a tank
old swain was soo cool at urf
Before the rework but which one?
The new Swain just gave me one idea. He's Malfoy's dad.
this new changes safe the champion
ppl play him mid even top sometimes and he aint bad anymore
Old swain had 3-4 reworks as well.