Fake Chips and What’s Inside Them
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มิ.ย. 2024
- Been a victim of fake chips? In this video I take a look at what's inside these fakes and highlight ways to protect yourself.
Together we will become more educated about this epidemic of dishonesty in the world of retro computing. Hopefully by the end of this video you'll have learned some new information about the topic of fake or counterfeit chips, how to protect yourself from them and possibly even get you engaged into looking at integrated circuits in a whole different way.
I hope you enjoy this video as much as I did making it for you.
Timestamps:
(00:00) - Welcome!
(00:34) - What are "FAKE" chips?
(01:37) - Where do they come from?
(03:09) - How to identify "FAKES".
(05:15) - My story.
(06:27) - Old chip buying tips.
(08:53) - Figuring out what these fakes are.
(10:49) - Decapping methods.
(13:48) - Understanding how DIPS are constructed.
(18:10) - Decapping using heat explained.
(23:58) - Decapping demonstration.
(31:33) - Viewing the extracted die.
(34:09) - Discussing the extraction and results
(34:35) - The original chips identity revealed.
(34:48) - Previous decap review.
(35:25) - Previous decap chip identity revealed.
(37:30) - Moving forward.
(38:19) - Wrap-up and final thoughts.
Intro/Outro music by LukHash [ www.lukhash.com/ ]
If you enjoyed this video, it would be greatly appreciated if you liked and subscribed to my channel. I have many interesting things planned for upcoming videos that you may enjoy.
Thanks for watching, and I hope to see you visiting the channel again real soon. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
A friend of mine bought a chip for a large plotter years ago in the internet, and that chip fried the circuit board completely. After some measurements, he decapped the chip and found a single piece of sheet metal with 16 legs. 🙄
That's funny!
That's absolutely crazy fake! I get it that chips that are below specs are being saved and sold for cheap, but complete fakes like this... That's criminal
Seems legit. You probably seen photos of fake external drives with USB stick or SD card inside with added nuts on hot glue for weight.
@@SamiJumppanen
Welcome to Chinese ethics.
Probably just an empty DIP frame 😂
Years ago I bought several LM317's off Ebay, all of which were fake rebadged BJTs. Even though I was a bit miffed, the only thing I could think of was "jeez, genuine parts are less than 50 cents off mouser and digikey, how desperate do you have to be to fake these things?"
Keep in mind 99% of these fake chips are coming from China. China's poor and working class make pennies so any sort of profit is worth it.
Sabotage maybe? Possibly just a jerk that likes to cause problems for others?
@@davidchristensen2970 Could have been. I always figure it's the Amazon Basics model. Oh, people need mice? Here's a mouse for $2. Oh, that's a cool design for a tv stand. It's ours now, but only $15. Huh, that youtube channel has a cool new foldable clothes hanger. Guess what? Amazon Basics Bendy Clothes Hanger, $5 for 3, before that TH-camr can even get their plans to a factory.
Infinite sweat shops in China. People need chips. Make fake chips. People need hard drives. Make fake hard drives. Factory next to you makes fake shirts? Yours makes fake pants. Buddy in Hong Kong a while back came home with a bootleg iFixit Kit he copped for $3. Sure, it's made out aluminum and half the bits stripped when we were just messing with it, but who cares if you're that factory making them for pennies? People want that kit. They'd love to pay $3 for it on ebay.
Volume sales , they make lots of money , over here we have so many fake 10-20-50 cent euro coins about because Chinese criminals imported container loads and have teams of lads going around the city buying random shit with them and stocking their own small corner shops with 100% profit.
@@technodazHehe.
For 6502's I built a NOP tester when I suspected the chips were fake. As it happens, they were probably not 'originals' but they did work. (they worked a low frequencies too - the original 6502s, which these purported to be, won't do this, so they were probably rebadged 65C02s).
I would suggest, knocking up some sort of test rig, for any old chips one buys, rather than dropping straight into vintage kit.
Nothing better than spending a few grand on an old early Apple system, hand-making a daughter board, compiling your own test script, and hand-checking some chips
😅 That's how my grandpa did it in the late 70's. Wish I had stashed that ROM Flasher/Chip checker he made
Yeah but you heard the man: they sell a first good batch and when you make a big buy they send you the fakes. So testing them would not be the solution. The solution is to never buy many chips at a time.
I bet they just have a bunch of ICs prepped as blanks ready to go and LASER them as people place orders! Interesting video, thanks!
That's a really good point, since to them, one chip can be any chip! Horrible though eh.
Years ago, in Brazil (Sao Paulo), I was looking for an specific IC, don't remember now, but for hobby porpoises. There is a street, famous in the city, as the street for electronics components and tools, which groups all these small and not so small vendors and business. I was walking from store to store, until someone told me that for that kind of not so common IC I should check on this office, of a a component "broker" or something like that.
He asked me which component I was looking for, an how many. When I told him, he checked (not remember if computer or telephone) and told me: Yes, I can have it. Would be (don't know) 10 dollars, but you would have to wait 40min at least.
Then after half an hour, someone enter the door with the 2 ICs... Paid and got home, never worked.... :/
I never knew they made this kind of thing before. But I would say someone etched/stamped the IC codes in less than 30min
We are talking at least 10 years ago. If not more (probably more)
Seen videos of that.
Just some vendor casually using an open air fiber laser to engrave "ATMEL ATMEGA328p" on some blank TQFP's on a tray.
I have ordered at least a thousand items from Aliexpress over a period of more than 10 years, mostly very small items which cost a couple of dollars/euros. I find that their customer protection works very well. But it might be different with integrated circuits because the detection of fake ones might be beyond the expertise of the people who resolve the disputes. I believe that if you have chips that simply do not work, you would have a much better chance of getting a refund, than by claiming that the chips are fake, which is harder to determine.
Something to note when trying to ID the die. I noticed large areas with a regular texture. You should not see that in a microprocessor. The areas are memory either program or data/RAM. That alone tells me those chips were microcontrollers since they have internal memory.
Thanks very much for your comment. I am quite new to looking at dies. That makes sense to me, as I did crack open a bad ram chip and although the die shattered (it was one of the first chips I tried to decap), and that's pretty much what I saw on the fragments. Great information to file away!
You will see such regular structures in modern CPUs for their caches.
In older CPUs you'll also see regular looking structures for register files and instruction decoding ROMs.
Some cpu's contain substantial amounts of memory and will contain those blocks.
@@qwertykeyboard5901chips of this era usually do not have much internal memory.
What makes this even worse is that a lot of these same sellers don't actually use pictures of the exact stock they are selling. They use pictures of the actual chips, so you can't go by the pictures. You have to receive the chips before you can really see what they are. Then you are stuck with dealing with Ebay returns if you are quick enough. This very issue is one of the reasons I never get chips from Ali express or one of those Chinese resellers. Chinese based businesses are very quick to give you trouble if you tell them the chips are fake. They usually refuse to refund you, because you did not provide proof regardless of whether you did or not...
One method that I've used back in the day (mid-1990s) to decap ICs in epoxy case - mostly 74 series TTL- was with aspirin. Common aspirin when heated and molten is quite corrosive and will dissolve the epoxy case. Basically have the chip in a vise, put a tablet of aspirin on top of it and melt it with a soldering iron. Don't use a soldering iron that you like, because the tip will get eaten away too. And use a respirator because this generates nasty fumes. Now, I can't guarantee that the plastic they use these days for ICs is the same and the aspirin method still works.
Now that is one that I had not heard before, and warrants an attempt. That is very cool. Never heard that approach before.
@@8BitResurgence it was fairly common practice in eastern Europe where I grew up. Aspirin can be used in the same manner to easily remove the enamel from enameled copper wire.
apparently boiling rosin will also do the job (without quite so nasty fumes)
i wish i had known THIS a few years ago! i had an epoxy encapsulated board get fried, and yeah... i did more damage opening it than the original fault. oh well.
salicylic acid... hmmm.... willow bark!
ironic that rosin is pine sap... i dont bother buying the stuff.
With heat, aspirin decomposes into phenol. That can be nasty stuff if handled improperly.
One option you can implement is, prior to decapping a chip, make a test circuit for an AT89C52 (breadboarding?) to see if that is what it actually is so you don't have to destroy it. Then, if it positively identifies as such, relabel it to the correct type and store it for any possible future use.
We're on the same wavelength. I wasn't planning on decapping any more of them, as the ones that I've decapped have all been Atmels. Already labelled the few that I have verified, but building a test circuit is a great idea!
or plug them in a programmer @@8BitResurgence
To be fair that might result in heat and smoke too if it's not what you thought.
@@jnharton True, but a simple circuit to test pinouts on a breadboard will cause very minimal damage to the components used in the test circuit, at the worst. It is better to test outside a device than to risk the damage to an in-device test.
@@bryankreinhart I agree that it's better not to just stick a potentially sketchy chip into an existing circuit.
If you suspect that your dubious chip is actually a functioning something else, you should want to be careful not to toast it either.
one big giveaway for 'retro" chips is they never came laser marked in the first place. I've seen AY-3-8910's with the GI logo and 2010 date codes. that was hilarious (microchip bought them in 91 or so). With rare exceptions, most chips made before 1990 or so tend to have a stamped marking. The surface finish is another easy way to tell. I haven't seen a 'fully lasered' chip yet but I don't doubt they exist. Usually they paint the top (blacktopping) and then laser a new marking on, or rarely stamp a marking. I had some SID chips done this way, and acetone easily rubbed the markings off to reveal the original chip marking underneath. If it comes from china, it's almost a sure fire guarantee it's at the least a "refreshed" original, or worst an outright fake. People were buying SP0256-AL2's only to find out they were SP0256-080 remarked which had a few words built in, and no allophones.
Yea, I’ve seen a solvent used to remove the old inking and smooth the surface, then a new silkscreen and inking applied. Under a scope you could still see the old marking if you used a bright light and looked at the low angle reflection.
Lasers are getting pretty easy to get ahold of should be able to run one of the newer "desktop" ones to ablate more off before you go to the heat.
Great video! So much effort for autopsy. Thank you!
it should be possible these days to make a micro chip fab and order new ones custom for pretty much the same prices as genuine old ones.
Yes but ewaste junk is cheaper. Could be argued its ultimately same amount of profit, but a lot of setup and QC needed.
Superb collection of advice.
I had never thought of how one could detect fake chips. I always thought one would have to take the risk and the losses that come inevitably with it.
One can use this advice to build a strategy and a plan to mitigate some of the losses or even minimize this risk.
The only problem with this video, it is a bit too long. So if you're tired, maybe you won't watch all of it in one go. Otherwise, be prepared to go the distance.
A lot of chips that you can buy that are still very cheap, abundant, which were used in arcade machines, industrial equipment or vending machines and which are not in high retro/repair demand, aren't fake-fake since they are functionally what you expect them to be; but they're still counterfeit since the markings aren't original, and don't have the correct revision, batch and date on them. These chips are often sold as implied new old stock while they're salvaged. Seems salvagers just habitually do that sort of processing. You can for example easily buy a YM3438 (OPN2 variant CMOS) and it won't even cost you much at all, and they'll have the correct die but they'll still all be reprocessed like that, and you don't get a choice. I would be inclined to pay extra for a chip which has not been manipulated, since i can be more certain of what i've got, but the insight hasn't gotten through to salvagers somehow.
The way i have seen them do that is just by sanding the chip top surface, and then painting over it black, seems might be acrylic paint by susceptibility to ketones, then usually lasering the new label. You can sometimes tell that they're hand sanded once you take off the paint layers.
As to AliE protection i think it depends on your standing as a buyer and seller's standing vs. damage value, as in i have seen it work perfectly fine and i have seen it also work fine up to a point but when you do a big order, you get duped and suddenly Ali sides with the seller. I have also had eBay buyer protection go horribly wrong in cases when i have not even received an item, but it was a longer time ago so i don't know now. I don't think any of these platforms fundamentally value customer's best interests, just depends on where they feel they can push and get away with things to maximise profit, and of course both some sellers and some buyers will try to game the system, warping it ever further.
I like your honest, freestyle presentation, thank you!
I learned of this doing a Ben Eater sap1 type build... SO MANY 256k eprom fakes I bought....The worst part is I thought it was me for a while...(novice).. Live and learn. Thanks for the info.
There's already been some chips that has been made by people to be a drop in replacement, i know people has developed a few chips for the C64, and there been the Pokey replacement for the atari 8bit and other consoles (and arcade).
These older chips are getting harder and harder to find and some are pretty much impossible to find.
I'm all for people developing equivalent replacement chips using FPGA or whatever method. While its nice to have original chips, those chips are eventually going to fail and you're not going to be able to find a replacement.
TOTALLY AWESOME 👌🏻 WOW!
Thanks so much. I never dreamed of what actually was inside a chip.😊
what a shame scammers do that. probably ruining otherwise perfectly working other cheaper vintage chips. they're scamming the customer and everyone else.
That "lab jack" is really cute. Sorry to see sellers rebadging vintage chips to look like different, entirely incompatible vintage chips. Nice that you were able to do the detective work to re-rebadge a few.
Small tip, audio normalization between intro and video proper. Intro audio blasted out 5.1 surround nearly clipping, while video audio was around -18dB.
Sometimes, fake chips is sanded, then rebranded with laser, sometimes, they are painted before.. Acetone is one way for testing painted ones..
For identifying fakes, one option is to compare pin 1 markings on package. If OEM uses small dot near pin, but chip under question has U shape in middle, it's probably fake. If ordered multiple chips, comparing packages between them is also helpful, because, fakes, sometimes, has identical engraving, but packages different..
Other way - very old chips, who's not manufactured very long time, normally, don't had laser engraved part number, but has painted letters with chemically resistant paint (acetone don't take that off). If chip under question has laser engraved letters, but OEM painted letters, that's 100% fake.. 😉
I'd read about fakes being painted, but have never come across that myself. Good points, thanks for your comment!
The sand and paint method is known as "blacktopping".
Using a fake chip as it was orginally intended is a nice way of confusing the hell out of people who want to copy your design ;-)
I once bought two Dallas 18b20 1-wire temperature sensors (three lead TO-92 pcackage) from Aliexpress. When I tried to read them with an Arduino, they didnt respond, instead they got hot. I thought that the sensor itself shouldn't get hot when you;re trying to read temperature. I then dicovered thet they were just ordinary NPN transistors.
Another Aliexpress fail. I'm sadly not surprised.
th-cam.com/video/kADAxlP7gpU/w-d-xo.html
Some years ago I bought a bunch of these 6502s on Aliexpress (and also some 6522 etc). From different sellers. They were like 50 cent each.
Recently I got into chips decapping / imaging / silicon reverse engineering, and these chip are literally Easter eggs.
I found a lot of UM6502, some CMOS 6502 (even kind of rare ones, like the HKE65SC02) and some "clones" with the exact same layout than the original 6502 but with different markings on the die, and a die a little smaller.
And fun fact, I found a Rockwell R65NC22 in a "MOS" 6522 🙃
I see another project! Use a arduino with current limited inputs and outputs. Write a program to pulse pins and read outputs. It would require a database of chips of a certain package and pin types.
The other problem with Nitric Acid is you have to use it in a fume hood, or outside with a breeze. If owning it is not illegal, you might be able to synthesize Nitric Acid from copper nitrate, or other nitrogen-containing compounds, but that’s a thing for chemists. Probably the easiest is to laser etch the plastic case, layer-by-layer, until you get to the chip. There are videos about that here on YT, and probably Facebook, Instagram, etc…
Thanks for the information. However, I'm no chemist, and don't think I would take something like that on. There are a LOT of things I'd try, but something like that... probably not. Now, laser work, I will get behind. Bought myself a 20w xtool that I have yet to set up. I'm sure I could make some interesting things happen with that. Gimme time! 🙂
You're killing me every time you say "Silicone" it's "Silicon" two very different materials.
Thanks for the comment, and apologies. Brain fart is my only defense. I am fully aware they are two entirely different materials.
@@8BitResurgence In your defense Silicon Valley rhymes well with "silicone valley" in these days. Due to some known features and actions of rich aging people.
Thank you for sharing your Knowledge with us~!
I was hit trying to buy P channel mosfets.. IRF 4905 .. these were to be used as 12 volt power switches. I built up the circuit, passed 5 amps through the switch and it got HOT.. charred the board. Eventually one of the devices decapped itself.. it contains a tiny 1mm across PMOSFET transistor die when the correct part would be 5-6 mm across.. I bought three sets of 10 from diffferent suppliers. Diffferent date codes, markings better printed than the genuine devices I finally bought from a UK distributor ( which were only twice as expensive) ...
This must have been from an entire die packaging setup selling fakes into the Shenzen bazaars..
I have also bought PL2303HX USB to serial devices from UtSource in Singapore. These eventually turned out to be fakes when the Windows driver disabled them several years later.
Ha I have a half full tube of irf4905s left over from building open source motor controllers. Great p-channel hexfet, I’ll be on the lookout for fakes if I need more.
In the good old days of ~5 years ago, rebranded chips were just painted black and restamped/printed with the fake markings. Acetone would wipe the markings clean and reveal what the chip really was. Now these crooks have upped their game and use laser-etching to rebrand the ICs. Geez...
A friend of mine let me use his Backbit Chip Tester to validate a pair of weird-logo-"Rockwell R6502P" ICs. Oddly, the tester concluded that they passed all 65C02 tests, which confirmed that they weren't what I purchased.
Thanks for your comment. The Backbit chip tester is great. I have to go through a bunch of 6502's that I bought from Ali and see what I have.
Seeing it turned out to be an 89C52 makes sense to me in the scammer's perspective. There are a lot of courses that still use the 8052 for microprocessors and microcontrollers coursework, or at least that's how it was for me, and we never had problems buying new chips for that matter, so it seems that they're abundant in the market.
As other people have pointed out, many of these chips are compatible interface-wise, for example the 89C52 is a microcontroller but can also be enabled to work with an external rom and ram. So you could rig a basic circuit to test for such micros. You can also notice regular big rectangles in the decaped chip, those are probably memory arrays that correspond to the integrated rom and ram.
Absolutely fascinating video.
Went to a really interesting talk given by a Sandia scientist about counterfeit electronics in 2016, kinda crazy what percentage of stuff out there is counterfeit.
The problem is that people in china have a very low sense of morality. If they can get away with it in the moment to make money they will. It doesnt mater if they are literally putting poison in baby food. The number one black market item there is actually baby formula.
Nice forensic analysis!
Nice video and is something that is very common these days, unfortunately.
Would be interested in your topic of reverse engineering PLDs as well.
Can thank Arduino and other similar devices. The parts in those really aren't that sensitive of a circuit nor pushed to the limits. So as long as it's the same pin outputs and diode direction.
It's actually kind of crazy if you do some research on the topic. There's pictures of streets piled 10 feet tall with circuit boards, they put them in an oven and "unpopulate" the boards. Then people will sort packages and then another will put the batches in a frying pan and rid the markings.
Just a minor tip - silicone != silicon :) But love the process and video.
Ugh, my dad makes this mistake all the time! He worked in construction/HVAC, so silicone was a common material 😂
In general, it is possible to use a multimeter in diode and resistance mode to figure out what the functions of the different pins are. It requires patience and a not too complicated chip - devices with multiple supply voltages pose some problems, for instance.
The power pins have quite different readings from normal I/O pins, a gnd/vcc pair normally shows up as a strong diode (with a lower voltage drop than the diodes embedded in the I/O pins). The direction of that diode indicates which pin is vcc and which is gnd. After finding the power pins, sounding out the other pins for being input, output, bidir or 'weird' (like an xtal oscillator) is not that difficult.
With a rough pinout of a device in hand, finding out which chip is hiding in there becomes feasible albeit labor intensive...
I once used this method on a completely unmarked 28 pin device. After figuring out the power and I/O pins (and still having no clue what it could be), I put the device in a breadboard and started toggling the inputs to see what would happen. After a few hours, I found it to be some sort of output controller to be used in televisions with a 4 bit data input, a couple of parallel outputs and a couple of pulse width modulated outputs for A/D conversion.
It's a nice hobby 😊
Interesting! I rememeber buying EPROMs on AliExpress that had been rebadged as EPROMs. They were similar but not the same part.
Sellers on Aliexpress often trade their stuff between other sellers or they may buy the stuff they are selling just in time if somebody buys. Since they often do not know their own sources they can not ensure quality.
Interesting finding!
You should revise your definition of "thermoplastic". From Wikipedia:
"A thermoplastic, or thermosoftening plastic, is any plastic polymer material that becomes pliable or moldable at a certain elevated temperature and solidifies upon cooling."
Such PDIP package is made an epoxy-based plastic. You saw that the plastic will break before it melts. Had it been made of common thermoplastic, it would have literally melted even at a lower temperature. Hot-melt glue is a good example of a great thermoplastic. Most plastics we encounter today are thermoplastics, but not the PDIP packages!
Thank-you for that!
The trick here is that epoxy is a thermosetting polymer which you apply heat to 'cure' a liquid/gel or otherwise malleable material and make it solid.
Whereas a thermoplastic polymer is one that becomes plastic (generic term for being pliable/mouldable) when heated to a particular temperature.
Thanks for sharing your story!
Appreciate your comment, thank-you!
I've had no end of fakes. I used to buy 22v10 GALs and it starts as they will take *any* 22v10 and restamp them as 7ns parts. So you could get 7,10,15,20,25ns only way to know is to test them all yourself. Later I bought 100 and I'm not even sure they even had any silicon in them. I couldn't find any resistance or anything between any pins. No idea what they were. They all ended up in the bin.
Another sad story! Thanks for sharing. Hopefully videos like this will help raise awareness.
Nowadays they even rebrand the correct chips. I bought a bunch of 4164 and they WERE 4164, but obviously with new markings. Why the hell would you do that? I mean, they were probably a wild mix of different manufacturers, but who cares!
Fixing vintage electronics must be a nightmare.
I bought 10 of chip 7476 that are
jk flip flops. When you apply the enable pin, it shorts out. I think that they are basic logic gates. 7476 at the time was 1.20 each. A basic logic gate is around 10 cents. I plan to investigate with current limits on the pins.
Some like voltage regs are just low spec or rejects that still work. I bought lm317s that wouldnt work over 20v input and lm555s that wouldnt work over 12v for the power supply. They also use a gas dryer type system to remove the components and attach new legs and solder dip them to look new. The heat used to remove the parts weakens them.
Measure the chip thickness too. Chips have specific tolerance and remarked ones goes off the tolerance. I discovered that way fake chip inside the well known brand, who was using fake chip inside their product to save a cent...
Ebay does not offer any protection for buyers. They ask to return but it cost many cases more than product itself
My mate spent 2 years in federal prison for making and selling electronic components to the US Navy. He would repackage used chips from e-waste as new chips. He used to extract the silicon and then repackage it. It was a huge federal case with a solid conviction, 2 years in the grey bar hotel, and another year in a half way house.
I'm still curious, is it that easy to extract the silicon and then repackage it?
If it were easy, it would be cool if the silicone was installed directly on the PCB. Very space saving. It seems very difficult to solder 😅
So glad to hear that there were consequences for those actions! Thanks for your post.
Really enjoyed this show.
Thanks very much for your comment. So glad that you enjoyed it!
They often sand then repaint the chips rather than "laser" them blank, as lasering takes longer. I recently bought some 6800 and 6821 chips via ebay, and they were VERY sus, all chips had exact same date code, even though they are OLD, and they had different die marks on the bottom. They were laser marked, which certainly was not an available technique at the time the genuine version of the chips were "made" - they should have been screenprinted. They all failed the solvent test, a drop of acetone on a q-tip, and it turns black immediately when rubbed on the IC. I contacted ebay right away with photos and the seller refunded me immediately, without a comment. The refund was nice, but I waited weeks to get the damn things and they are useless. I'd love to know what they are, especially as they are all different judging by the die marks...
Thanks for your reply. I'd be happy to decap them and provide photos of the dies. I just ordered a new metallurgical microscope for my continued efforts as I work towards a reverse engineering project where I'll be reverse engineering some PALs. Will be doing videos on the entire process. But back to your chips, if that's of interest to you, send me an e-mail (you'll find it in the ABOUT on the channel) www.youtube.com/@8BitResurgence# Could even do a video on the process.
The technical term for this is "blacktopping".
Doing something with the fake or rather re-labelled chips would be pretty sweet, be kind of amusing to see an Alarm controller or something apparently rocking a Z80 when its actually an MCU lol
Wow, never saw a die. We did something with microcontrollers in the 90’s but never opened the package
Here in the European Union we have an EU directive called the "precursor directive" which is about chemicals that can be used to make explosives, and those chemicals are controlled so that a private person either needs a permit to buy them, or they might be outright forbidden from private individuals. High concentration nitric acid is on the list, as are numerous other interesting and useful chemicals.
I've never encountered a total fake chip (touch wood) but numerous inferior copies of basic chips like voltage regulators that do not perform to the genuine chip specs - YES (they work but not as well as you would expect leading to hours of wasted time trying to find & fix the problem). Always source components from reputable locations is now my general rule
If I remember correctly the die was a lot bigger than that for the 6532 originally. I think it was something like 5 micron. I think it was near 10mmx10mm.
thank you for making this video
You're very welcome, glad you enjoyed it.
Did you dump the code on the fake Rockwell chips? It would be interesting to know something about its previous life as a microcontroller, maybe even gain some insight on the source of them.
Thus far, all of the "rockwell" microcontrollers have been blank. But I will continue to look, and if something interesting is found, I'll make another video about it. Thanks for your comment!
This is a very useful video. I haven't done any serious electronics since the eighties when I took electronics in high-school. Back then our instructor had us look up semiconductors in an ECG catalog. Pre internet obviously. There must be tons of online resources for looking up semiconductors these days. What would be a few good websites to do so? Sincerely, Class of 85.
Thank-you for your comment. The internet is really a wonderous place, and there is indeed a seemly endless resource of information pertaining to pretty much anything you can think of. But it also draws out the $$$ predators. Electronics I find is a super fun hobby for me, but this video in a small way, I try to highlight some of the traps people set for those trying to have fun and spend their money wisely.
I’ve seen chips that a solvent was used to remove the old silkscreen labeling and a new silkscreen applied.
The chip was a 8051 microntroller manufactured by Intel for Atmel which is a fabeless company ..
The intel marking has nothing to do with the manufacturing, but rather with the intellectual property of the core that Atmel used.
It really sucks that this is happening in the world we live in today!
It's a China issue. The problem is that people in china have a very low sense of morality. If they can get away with it in the moment to make money they will. It doesnt mater if they are literally putting poison in baby food. The number one black market item there is actually baby formula.
Recently needed a new BIOS chip for a laptop, so I ordered one off Ebay. But I found myself unwilling to use it because I knew nothing about who sold it or what code was actually on the chip and that it didn't have any shenanigans going on. A BIOS chip would be an ideal place to hide malware, bootloaders, etc. Ended up buying a whole new board, but also realized I had no way to validate the board, either. It's very difficult to trust.
Great information .. this plays really well at 1.25 x playback speed or even 1.5 x for the busy 8 bit enthusiast.
1.25x Speed Works GREAT! Much better
I had it on 2X, and TBH, wished there was a 3X option.
great demonstration
Thank-you for saying so, your comment is appreciated.
The best way is to look for listings for "assortment" kits and similar chips with the same batch/date codes. The "assortment" kits are the best when all of them have same codes but different part number... No 2 part numbers are going to have the same batch/date codes, let alone 5!
Another one is some have a embedded circle with a number (maybe or a letter, can't recall) in it. And those cycle through the sequence of every chip. So batch codes will be same but the number will change. If all of them have the same number then fake!
A lot of my experience is mosfets.
As he points out toward the end, the best method is to compare them to known authentic parts.
Barring that, it's wise to use a broad knowledge of when and where the legitimate manufacturer was making their chips and the visual styles/ manufacturing process to demonstrate that your chip cannot be legitimate.
Even a really good fake/counterfeit is often detectable by those approaches. And in the end it may turn out that you've got relabeled engineering samples or defective examples of the "correct" part.
You could "cold cut" the longer sides of chip. You don't need the leed frame.
Amtel was one of the many alternate sources making 8051 uC variants. Intel was the designer of the 8051 series, which they probably licensed to Atmel. The AT89C52 is an 8051 variant, which I actually used.
There are interactive BASIC interpreters (eg BASIC31A) that run on 8032/8052 compatible chips, should also work on the AT89S52! PS, almost all 40 pin 8031/8032/8051/8052 are pin compatible except for programming interfaces. Almost ALL of them will work in an 8031 circuit with an external EPROM, even if they are 8051/8052 (the 8031 official pinout makes you strap a pin in a way that tells it to be an 8031 rather than 8051, same chip actually :) ).
Well you can win those cases I been through long fights with AE where I even threaten them with filing a police report against them for fraud, and also threaten them with a reverse bank transaction last time I told them that I can also send a complaint letter to their headquarters in UK. You just have to fight them hard enough to make them listen one time they wanted me to return an item to Poland, and the address information they gave me was the name of some company and five zeros as a postal code, and that they then would say that the parcel never got there after a lot of arguments with them they gave up and I got my money back.
The chip that you delidded is an AT89S52 according to a CPU-World Forum post.
Thanks.
Which is a variant of the ubiquitous MCS-51 (8051) microcontroller. This particular model has 8kB ROM, 256B RAM running at 0 to 33 MHz at 4.0 to 5.5V. They go for about 3.40 US new from Mouser or Digikey.
I'll bet the last of the most rare valuable chips get lost this way, sold as some popular chip.
I wonder why nobody got the Idea to build up a X-Ray database of rare chips to verify the die size and attachment points of the legs. That way people could get their suspicious chips to the local dentist before placing them on rare boards with potential of breaking.
Have you tried wiping the top with acetone to see if it was repainted and not lasered?
All of these chips I'd gotten in the R6532 lot were for sure lasered. Under the microscope you can see it's effect.
I ended up with 10 fake floppy controllers from an ebay seller (obviously sanded and remarked DIP40''s). When I left a negative review he offered to refund me if I removed it!
will try this with some chips that had some oopsies. Maybe I'll see where the damage occured.
You can also try grinding down the chip casing, VERY CAREFULLY.
I had considered that, but I didn't want to risk damaging the die. Felt that heat was the safer option.
May we please know the magnification level needed to read the micro text on the die? I have always wondered where the profit is in faking chips. Seems to me to be a lot of effort, time, and equipment for just pennies, I guess it is all about quantity.
The microscope used in this video is an Amscope tri-ocular model with 20x magnification connected to a 10mp camera. Reading the text on the die to the level you saw did require some digital zooming. Future die videos will be shot using a higher power metallurgical scope with a greatly improved magnification level, so much higher quality shots will be forthcoming. Thanks for your comment.
@@8BitResurgence Thank you for your prompt reply. IIRC, my beginner PCB scope does have 20x magnification lenses. However, it does not have a camera attachment. Maybe I can fake it with my cell camera. Thank you for continuing to put the word out about fakes. So many newcomers get caught on this one.
@@t1d100, hopefully you can get some interesting pictures with what you have. Glad you enjoyed the video. Scamming people seems to have become big business, that large companies like eBay and Aliexpress seem to be ok turning a blind eye to. Here's hoping that it helps some people save their hard earned dollars.
Is the temperature (500) Celsius or Fahrenheit? Could you simply put the IC into a hot oven?
500C. You could try, but you'd have to crawl inside to perform the break, as you have to keep the heat on it while you start twisting away. Kinda toasty for your arms trying to use your oven! I wouldn't recommend it!
is there any way to ID a defaced chip that isnt destructive? I have two Computer Kinetics bartop card game machines, one of which works (Draw 5 poker) and one that has a broken VFD display so I cant test (Blackjack), but I'd like to be able to keep them working should any componant fail. I've completly rebuild the power supply of the working one, but when it comes to the chips EVERY ONE has been manually defaced in both machines, which came from different places so the defacing was likley done at production back around 1972 when these machines date from. The ROMs I can pick out, as they are the kind of PROM with a covered window in the casing, but as for the rest I cant even tell which one is supposed to be a CPU, if indeed this machine even has one. Finding documents has proven fruitless, the best I can find is an end user manual which only covers basic operation, sure cant find schematics =/
Identifying a defaced chip can be exceedingly difficult. Sometimes clues are left on the underside of the chip that could point to a die number or other distinguishing traits.... but that's a slim chance. Otherwise, if they're 74 series logic chips, a standard chip tester can be used to identify the chip. If it's a custom chip, research as to it's placement on the board might reveal someone elses experiences as to what the chip is. Lastly, probing the chip could be a last resort.
It IS possible to non-destructively decap a chip such that you reveal the die without destroying the connections to the ICs legs, but that is very difficult to do. I'd class that as an absolute last resort. But then you've still irreparably damaged the physical chip. Probably not the best option to be sure.
Thanks for your comment!
Drawing the schematic will often help, but on largish boards with many chips, this might be too much work.
i once bought some 4116s from a supplier that others had problems with, burning up instantly , i did some tests on them and turned out to be 4164s!, tested good as 4164s!, i messaged the seller saying they should alter their listing to say theyre incorrectly marked but they never changed anything..
U know silicone(tits) and silicon(chips). Maybe you forgot to drop the e
That was making my brain hurt too. Silicone is a polymer, usually soft rubbery or liquid. Silicon is a hard rock-like element. Also, thermoplastic is not a "high temperature plastic that doesn't melt." Thermoplastic is any plastic that becomes soft or melts with temperature then solidifies when cooled.
If you score it beforehand like cutting glass maybe you can control where it breaks?
Thanks for the tip. I will try that on my next decap! That's a great idea.
@@8BitResurgence You're welcome. I've used score lines on plastic before to help control where it breaks or bends. I'm not sure the best technique for what you're doing would be.
A knife blade on a soldering iron may work. Or maybe heating up a razor blade or utility knife blade. Or maybe if you have any of those metal rotary blades for a dremel. A nice simple score line is better than a deeper one. Hope it works, goodluck! :)
In a forum i found a guy that sold wafers from intel that werent inside the chip and the die AT37A01 coresponds to the AT89S52 so i think what you got sent is the AT89S52 microcontroller
i never knew the innards of a chip were so tiny
I understand that 6502 chip is often used in the older gaming systems. I have one or two Commodore units if someone wants them.
You have OLX in Europe, we have Avito in Russia, every private seller has an account, the account has reputation based on its age and feedback of buyers, this is a fail-proof system to let every buyer control his purchase's risk factor. If you buy something from a new seller account that has no feedback, you must understand that it is not some teenager, who just registered his account or a former housewife who changed her occupation and started a new account, but a crook, whose former account was blocked for cheating.
I bought a ton of tlo72 and they kept burning up and I couldn’t figure out what was going on until I pulled one from an existing project and it didn’t burn up, so I threw them all away
The problem is that people in china have a very low sense of morality. If they can get away with it in the moment to make money they will. It doesnt mater if they are literally putting poison in baby food. The number one black market item there is actually baby formula.
Thanks for the neat video! I'm trying to get 16gbps GDDR6 BGAs and they're far cheaper on Ali than on eBay... id rather not end up with some trash 12gbps half density stuff so I'll just wait until something good pops up
The problem is that people in china have a very low sense of morality. If they can get away with it in the moment to make money they will. It doesnt mater if they are literally putting poison in baby food. The number one black market item there is actually baby formula.
I bought 100 LM358 dual op amps off eBay a couple of years ago. I'm well aware of counterfeit chips, but these are bottom basement chips. Who would fake these !? Well, they did. And I used them until I was almost out. They were still dual op amps, and "single supply" types (the inputs and outputs can swing almost to zero v.). But they worked in the board, I designed with these chips. When getting REAL LM358s, the board started to fail. Fortunately fixable with only a couple of value changes of some passive parts. The "fake LM358s" actually performed better than the real part. I suspect they renumbered them, because LM358 is a known part to the hobby market, and the actual part was only known to a much smaller market, and cash flow was more important. No point in holding on to a more expensive part, hoping that someone will actually buy, when you still have to pay the rent.
Actually plastic that doesn't melt is called thermoset. Thermoplastic is the kind that melts when heated.
I used to build custom computer boards back in the 1970' and early 1980's I have several thousand genuine CPU's, memory chips, e-proms, TTL and Cmos chips that are left over + a few genuine unused Farnel switch mode 5v with +/- 12v to 15v outputs as used on early mini-computer conversions
Very cool! If you're still into it, then you have yourself a treasure trove of parts... and if not, a potential tidy cash of saleable items! Thank-you for your comment!
@@8BitResurgence I'm in a similar situation, but unfortunately you're competing with sellers of fakes, and skeptical buyers making assumptions. Not easy anymore as a buyer OR seller of genuine NOS parts.
I am tinkering with 6502 series chips at the moment. Instead of buying retro chips, I buy new W65c02 etc as made by Western Design Center (WDC).
They are updated versions of the 6502 chip set, and are far superior to the originals. Buy them direct, or from Mouser, then you know they are real. They're not expensive either.
Thank-you for your comment. Although it is absolutely true that you can buy a W65C02 NEW from mouser or digikey that is brand new made by WDC, that will run as fast as 14Mhz, unfortunately they are not direct drop in replacements for the old original 6502. This leaves many people looking for old/used stock. This leads them into these traps set by the terrible chip vendors. The W65C02 is absolutely the best solution if your application is tolerant of the chip. From my experience however, the W65C02 isn't TTL compatible wrt signal levels.
some are not 'fake' as such but cleaned up and remarked pulls from old equipment , or the correct 'basic' type but remarked as different variant
I've bought quite a few cups off eBay and tbh i just always assume they'll be fake but as long as they do what i need then to and I get a good price them I'm cool with it. So far it's worked out for me. I am assuming my luck will run out
Wouldn't one of the new component testers (Chip Tester Professional) reject these chips when tested?
They do cost a bit, but get a few other people to chip in (or a user group) and share the device.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to tell it what you're testing before you start testing?
okay you got scammed, get a refund, but is there anything intresting to do with a at89s52 controller? idk if there's a lot of doc for assembly on it
Counterfeits or forgeries are better terms than simply fake.
Maybe make use of a pocket microscope to see artifacts of the laser etching or graving are inconsistencies in the print are the surface texture stuff like that and then compared to a noun piece from the same at least from the same manufacturer in the same time frame or if for some reason you need a lot of chips and you're trying to buy them cheaper you could buy one good one to compare before spending money on a bunch of unknown ones