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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- Understand the in's and out's of the two main surf skates brands in the market. Are you stuck in your surfing progression? Use surf skates to improve your surfing.
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3. Belle for letting use her Smoothstar :)
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0:00 Intro
1:39 Difference in the trucks
2:02 Common mistakes in surf skates
2:45 What to do with different surfaces
4:01 Why do we train with Carvers
5:40 Carver VS Smoothstar
12:02 Should I buy a Carver or a Smoothstar?
13:03 Outro
13:50 Anthony meets the ground
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I have found my Smoothstar is terrible for practicing paddling.
Hahaha
I’m on the same boat here trying to figure out between a carver or smooth star. I think it should help us for footwork and twisting
I want a smoothstar for commuting
🤣🤣🤣
How many liters ya riding bro? Maybe take the trucks off and it might float better. 😂
I like that: "surfing is about riding with wave, it's not about riding with the board."
“It’s in the hands of the user. What you train is what you get.” Great advice. 👍
I am 67 and have a couple carver skateboards that I use when the surf isn't happening.Riding these boards have improved dramatically my front foot surfing to generate speed when going backside on a wave to make a section , get back in the pocket or get in position for a barrel
Can’t rate this enough. I got a Carver (with C7) Da Monsta 7 years ago and have slowly allowed it to help me develop my surfing. When Clayton talked about the bike analogy, I’d say that it perfectly describes my experience. Learning to push through a turn without it sliding out or losing speed has been invaluable (and slow!). Cheers Clayton 🤙
Thanks!
Great arguments here, best comparison of both systems so far.
Definitely learned some important lessons from Clay. Thank you, coach!
The trick with the smoothstar is to practice that nice flow, compression and extension without feeling the need to wobble like crazy. The wobbling you really only need to do if you want to gain speed from stand still. If you push to get to speed, no need to wobble at all.
Haha that angry termite style I have only ever seen groms do. And yes, doesn't look great.
Great content! Got a carver triton after watching your video, was teaching SUP and found a great skate wave park. You got me over the edge to train my SUP Surf with a Surftrainer! Thank you
Glad to hear man!
That was not only the best , but also the most diplomatic clip I have ever watched on surf skate. Well done , personally I would have found it hard to resist saying things a bit more brutally when it comes to the smoothstar. Love your work Clay .
Cheers legend!!
That was so good ! Thanks for sharing !
Glad you enjoyed it!
This so far is the best vid ive watched in my search to make up my mind on what to buy, ive been looking for a while now and although i surf (not as often as i'd like to) i didnt know which would be the most applicable to my surfing, initialy i wanted a surf skate just to cruise around but now i'm realising why not get something that will naturaly benefit my surfing when i cant get in the water as often, i like your approach and your explination to help get accross the dynamics of how each board moves, thankyou 👍
This was incredibly helpful on multiple levels guys. Thank you!
Our pleasure!
You guys are literally pioneering a whole surfing curriculum can't wait to see a harness and anchor point above that bowl for aerial training
Its on our radar!
Killer video guys!! Awesome content!! I really really love it 🙌🏼
Thanks Chris!!! Safe travels!
I don't use my surfskate as surf training but this video still gave me some excellent ideas to integrate into my riding. Especially the bit on focusing on compression and efficient use of body movement. Thank you.
By far the most important info ever on surfskates here.
I have a Carver and chose the CX truck for this reason. Not to mention I’m skating miles and that’s impossible on any other.
My smoothstar also skates miles
For me cx is realy a good choice! I never read something about changing the bushings! You can put in some realy soft bushings for that wiggely feel and short radius or some hard pushings for a very stabile board with a longer radius and then you can fine adjust the feel on the kingpinnut! Thats great for different types of training and skating!
Good to know!
I'm in my 30th, in a quest to learn surfing. There's no ocean nearby so, I'm learning surfskate to hopefully easily surf when I'll be able to, and your videos are absolutely awesome. I feel like I understand the mindset, so thank you! Cheers from France.
Thanks a lot for such a valuable information. Very intelligibly and interesting!
Well explained! Thanks!!
Thanks for watching Balthazar!
I really want the design for that bowl so I can put one in my backyard.
Video super helpful and makes sense.
You really do need to have that tactile sensation to move when the wave wants you to, not when you want to move up or down the wave.
I took some Paris longboard trucks and put them on a old school shaped pool board .Also put risers for clearance on my soft wheels.It will give you more realistic rides than those weird swivel trucks will.Also I like to find a long concrete shoulder and even better if it’s slanted down to give you speed to bottom turn go up your concrete shoulder and smack it to finish in a tail slide but you must pull out that slide mid wave so you still can generate speed for your next turn.
Hi guys- really good discussion and technical reviews are outstanding. I also use what used to be called a snake board ( nowadays called a streetboard which has the 2 wide platforms and that both pivot and used to practice this on steep driveways and roads and found my hands/ arms were so critical in balance and smooth turns - not sure if you have every used these snake board. btw could you do vid on construction of your new skate training bowl? thanks for the great vids
Thanks you so much for your appreciation Rich! Would you be able to suggest you idea here? -> ombe.co/roadmap
Best surfskate in my humble opinion is my swelltech, nothing even comes close to the smothness and perfection!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉😊
I started with a Carver Greenroom traveling my camper and then got a SS 77 for using at my mom's when I fly in. Love the Carver for the street more than the 77. But I found the 77 pulled me deeper into my turns and encouraged more compression and allowed me to really generate good turns without much slope on smooth concrete. In addition, the SS has taught me to use the Carver better. When it came time to get a third board (my life is spread out) I went for another SS but it was not a clear decision.
I'm not a good surfer and don't understand 5% of what Clayton sees. He has a clear goal - surf training. But if having fun on flats is ALSO part of it, then the SS is a great choice. And while the Carver may be more suited (especially CX) for the bowls the SS works just fine. I really do enjoy surf skating so it's not just training. It's how I loosen up and get some flow and exercise when away from the water.
Best advice after owning both? Start with Carver but eventually get both.
@ShelleLoves2SurfSkate I think owning a Carver CX and a SS Thruster could be all you'll ever want. The Carver C7 will fall in-between but more like the CX. I have not ridden the CX trucks but have felt them and think that it's a better to widen your "quiver". The Smooth Star will give you the other top brand/system that's different enough to have a real choice in which you take out. And like I said, the SS very well might help you find more surf training feel with your CX trucks when appropriate.
Hello! This is really a very sensitive issue, I share on the one hand what they say that we can get into bad habits with surfskates. I think one of the first questions is, why do you really want a surfskate? If you are a surfer you know that you can use a surfskate to stay active on those days when there are no waves, on the other hand if you are not a surfer but surfskate catches your attention then you can choose a brand that makes you feel the sensation of surfing. In my case I surf and have tried Carver, Yow, Smoothstar and Swelltech. In my opinion Smoothstar and Swelltech have more of that sensation of surfing, I try to combine exercises with the cones and with the Bowl. And I always carry in my mind what the lines of surfing are since asphalt or concrete is not the same as being in a wave. You cannot make a turn with a surfboard as radical as you can with a surfskate so you must be clear about what you want to do when you buy a surfskate. Good video
Extremely helpful
The footage at 7:28 is amazing. How was that recorded? Some sort of butt mounted 360 cam? Looks sweet!
nicely explained,. Not about the board. but how you use it
Awesome content! Thank you guys :)
Im european (better access to yow) so I was just wondering if you’d also go for a carver with cx trucks over a yow?
Definitely don't get a Yow with a Meraki truck. You can't tighten it. I found it useless for riding a bowl/ramp.
Great tips.... Did you try SwellTech surf skates ?
When I'm forehand surfing all I can do is enjoy the ride and trim Abit n pump Abit, backhand how ever I can get pretty vertical and do snaps, but struggle to pump lol I want to learn to snap n go vertical on my forehand
Biiig Fan of your videos/insta really cool bowl :))
Thanks!
Great video! I do a lot of surfskating just for the fun of skating in itself but after a few years going back and forth ( between CX, C7 and a smootstar) I absolutely agree on the sentiment that it is mostly how you use the tool, not the tool itself :) Always imaging being on a wave! That said, I find the feel of wide stance CX setups is best for me. In some bowls I even think that a regular pool skateboard with harder wheels might be even better except they usually have too narrow wheelbase. Have you tried using regular (old school 80:s 15" WB + 56-60 mm wheels) for surf training and in that case, what's your take?
We have used Carvers from the very beginning and they go beyond our expectations. We say, if it is not broken don't fix it.
@@ombesurf which carver do you recommend, C7, CX, or C5?
@@ombesurf and size? I'm 5'11, 76kg
@@Frank-xd4zs cx
Agreed
You guys care to share the design for your ramp? Down in the Caribbean surf skates could come in handy and helpful but we don’t have ramps to use
Have you legends had much to do with the waterbourne truck adapters?
Where in OX are you guys? Love your work..
I have a smoothstar 77 toledo model but definitely use it like a carver with long drawn out turns rather than anything fast or snappy and no wiggle. I do love the board but it sounds like I should have bought a carver as I only want it to improve surfing. Dayum!
You can improve your surfing technique on any surfskate tbh. I have Yow, Carver CX and Slide and all can improve your surfing. Stick with what you have and improve your compression and extension.
Tbh with you, i use my Yow more than the rest for surf training.
Thank you for the video! Do you guys have an opinion on Yow surf skate?
Try before you buy.
@@ombesurf one can TOTALLY read into this, and yet we need more details !! hahaha
It’s a good brand, less stable then Carver and a bit more stable then Smoothstar. I can recommend the brand. Take a board with higher concave such as the YOW Snappers or Arica. Cheers
Can you release full video of 7:27? It looks so good
Any tips on which board is better for a beginner (surf and skate) so I dont make the wrong purchase haha
that bowl is the bomb!!
Thanks Ans!
What about YOW? Or Swelltech... I got one since a few month, it's Amazing....
Hi there, I have a z flex longboard and just wondered if that could just do the job? Okay you can’t do hard turns on it but can be nice and flowing etc! Thanks
We used a carver Tyler 777 longboard model and it went well. So give it a go?
Which would you recommend for someone who can't turn for shot on a surfboard, that's the real question 😅
I was gonna buy the smoothstar. And now I'm in doubt...again!
In my personal opinion I have ridden both and I much prefer the smoothstar
@@jackhasslacher62 Nice. I did bought the smoothstar in the end.
@@Charlot1914 yes the smoothstar is more versatile i use it in bowls /pumptracks/flatbanks etc .you just need a much higher skill level . smoothstar is more pro level board.
@@helenchesterton490 I agree, I have been riding mine and I feel I made the right decision. I feel it helped me in my surfing already.
can anyone help me out? I want to bowl ride and work on my surf skills.. I'm an "advanced beginner" i would say... been surfing for like 2 years.. and I can ride comfortably on a longboard skateboard. I ride a 7 foot/6 foot board in the water.
should i get the carver cx or look for a smoothstar? I've never surfskated before
i don't want to miss out on learning surf tricks, i definitely value FLOW and speed and ripping... i don't want to be too rigid. but i also understand that smoothstar is a "shortboard" feel... will this be too advanced, or will it rather help my learning?
where can I find the video of the dude surfing with the camera fixed to his back?
Well, I have never surfed before but Carver kept me wiggle. As I started to use waterborne adapter with 180 mm track in the back and 110 in front, I really learned the compression and decompression effect. But that happened on streets, so I cannot compare. Still, there are different opinions from other surfers who recommend swelltech, waterborne, smoothstar and even yow.
Everyone is entitle to their opinion. As mentioned in the video everything is in the hands of the user.
Great video! Have subscribed.
On that note, would a regular longboard-style skateboard be better than a smoothstar for this style of training? Couldn't really see much difference in the trucks on a carver from videos (height?) than a longboard I already own but haven't seen one in the flesh yet.
The carver cx trucks are reverse kingpin trucks! They feel different than normal trucks!
@@MrBerndSp thanks brother good to know will have to get my hands on one!
Welcome aboard! - On your note: You have to try and feel.
Nope, smoothstar 100% better than a normal longboard in my experience. Started surfing about 25 years ago and skating about 35 years. Even on the flat I find the smoothstar to beneficial for my surfing but and the its a but that the guys mentioned in the video, the ease of picking up bad habits can be very easy. I think as long as you are surfing more than on the skateboard practicing surf stuff you'll learn what feels right on the skater. I think that goes for any system of surfskate too. Even with that much experience on a skate board the smoothstar felt absolutely foreign. Haven't been on a craver but I used to skate the local bowl heaps on a londboard. So long story short is longboard is better than a normal skateboard and surfskate is better than I longboard and surfing every day is better than all three combined. Last one is wishful thinking most of the time. 😂
Although I do get the opinions on the carver VS smoothstar, i.e. Having slower and therefor smoother turning lines.. I don't think it's only related to board. Rather its about how you are taught/ learn techniques on the board. Both can do the exact same thing, good or bad.
We agree that it's not only related to boards and we disagree that both boards can do exactly the same thing.
@@ombesurf hmm I do have to come back on that, indeed from an engineering perspective the boards aren't the same. But that's besides the point. The learning proces is rarely limited by the the tools, although many people think it is. Especially when those tools are, yes different, but essentially in the same ballpark.
Genios!! saludos desde Buenos Aires
I want to visit you and get some of your lessons, but first I need a board let's see which one I get first. Can't wait anylonger, thank you so much for this video, you seem to be a great teacher. One of my childhood dreams was surfing which I have never done, I ended up skateboarding stopped it now I am back to free skating. Any thoughts on free skates and if they feel like surfing? Thanks!
what about the lengh os the board? wouldnt a longer board like the smoothstar 77 toledo 34" be less wiggely and more flowly than a shorter skate? If so, isnt it just a matter of getting the right board lengh for you and than a smoothstar could be q better choice over the carver?
Trucks are a huge part of the experience. Length and width are next.
Are you recommending the c7 or cx trucks?
The smothstart can do the job/turns for you, and the Carver CX forces YOU to make the turn.
No. The Smoothstar forces you to use torsion, compression and foot-steering to turn, the Carver CX only requires compression and foot-steering.
No torsion = bad technic
Confirmed that my carver c7 decision was the right one!
swelltech?
Thxxxxxxxx a "milliooooooon"!!!!!!!!!!!+++:))))))
I can’t really afford a surf skate at the moment, can I just use my regular skate board at a skate park?
Another great video guys. I’m rapidly becoming more of a frothing grom than my 15yo son ;)
I love how Clayton summed things up, it is a tool to be used, and what you train is what you get. I do own a Smoothstar and I love riding it, though finding the right spot with good inclination is a must if you wish to improve your surfing.
Lastly, I also agree that for someone that is more on the beginner side and does not have a lot of athletic background the Carver is a more efficient tool for learning good surfing habits.
Love what you put out there keep up the good work, been learning lots from you two.
Cheers
Yes the smoothstar is for more advanced surfers/surfskaters beginners and intermediates best start with the carver.
Are you guys using the CX or the C7 trucks in the carver? Thanks for the vídeos. Help a lot
Im also keen to know.....
It's a CX
Would you recommend c7 or cx for training turns?
Angry termite lol
Yes enjoying the carver alot, goes well on pump tracks
It sounds like you don't even need a surf skate because it sounds like a simple cruiser in a bowl will help you? The whole technology to the surf skate I thought was the wiggling to simulate building up speed in a wave so if that's not accurate and you just need to compress/decompress then why wouldn't any board be more accurate to a wave? Help me decide if I should sell my swelltech and buy a cruiser lol. I can loosen up the trucks or put in soft bushings on a cruiser and then also have a get around town board.
Fair point, i also thought the same thing. The "wiggle" if put it right together with the compress/decompress are suppose to help you with the build up speed technique which can be crucial on a wave. If you wanna sell your swelltech, sell it to me. 😅
Hi. I am interested in building surfskate training track similar to you. I am wondering if i could get some guidance from you guys?
Fully agree that its the way you use the tool... always imagine you are surfing....CX trucks are alot more forgiving and closely resemble a normal skateboard truck but with a reverse kingpin....with C7 and smoothstar you can dig the rail and jack knife if you over do a turn so to me the C7 and smoothstar have more that surfy feel but the internet has a strict divide on this matter....can you tell I went with smoothstar..)
Personal choices are entirely up to the individual. We are sure you love your smoothstar.
I have jack knifed with my carver Cx trucks street skating with softer bushings. Not good getting slammed at 57 hrs old is not good. I have a longboard too but I’m so paranoid when I’m riding any surf skate on the streets or anywhere there’s debris rocks, potential uneven surfaces with lips or edges and things like that and getting hung up instead of rolling over these smoothly. that’s the dilemma with surf skate, so find a course. Any smooth, skate park or pump track or any smooth surfaces that are clean that’s no problem. I’m also finding I could jackknife or get slammed. If I have too much weight going forward or don’t have enough momentum or inertia at a slower speed, and then you get slammed on some thing I don’t know if I would change to another surf skate. I might have the same problem.
@@shirtlessGraveler305 Man..I go full padding when i,m on the smoothstar..wrist guards knee and elbow pads and padded shorts..)
When I come and skate that ramp don't push me so far that I won't be able to surf for a week because of leg burn!! we're only going to have a week there and I'm not going to be so tied i can't surf.
Deal
Carver it is... I am a total beginner and I am wondering for my 174cm and 72kg what would be the best size? Thanks in advance
The firefly
I made me a schlongboard - pump fast because I pivot hard my hips round the fronttruck. The turns are somtimes to big to slalom the grandmas.
As I am in the age of grandpas I will by a new bord with a springtruck to avoid, finding me in the hospital with the widow.
I’m a long time surfer, more newbie surf skater who wants to learn to work on surf techniques at my local skate park. I’ve signed up for your OMBE program and love it! Can you please make this easy for me and tell me specifically which complete carver surfskate / trucks/wheels I should buy to skate bowels? Carver has like 30 models. I’m looking at the carver black tip, but if you have a better recommendation, I’d love it. Thanks!
Yeah, I bought a Carver CX but still wondering if this is the truck they were talking about... Would be nice to have that specification!
@@emmanuelsavarddimanche3804 yes the Carver CX is the best truck for park and bowl skating as most stable and tension can be adjusted. This is the truck they most likely use on their skateboards more than the C7
Can't we tighten the front trucks on a smoothstar to replicate the carver feel???...
Give it a go, We are interested in your feedback!
whats the difference between c7 and cx trucks? and which ones should i buy
AFAIK c7 is more surf oriented (super turny) CX is more or less like a very turny normal skateboard truck.( less turny than c7)
so C7 if you're looking into the surf feel and/or challenge CX if you're more of a cruiser/ commute wth board
Which Carver would you use for a beginner (barely any experience skating or surfing) on the bowl?
Carver CX trucks are best for a beginner. They can be adjusted to be tighter if need be to make it more stable (just don't over tighten the truck and then too stiff to turn!)
If you think you wiggle wiggle to ride a smooth Star then you have no idea how to ride them. Smooth Stars are all about compression and extension. Scooping forward with the back arm and driving off the back foot for a bottom turn and extending and twisting for a top turn. No wiggling involved
First I bought a smoothstar 77 then I saw your video
"How dare you " is my first reaction
Now I have 3 carver cx and sold my smoothstar
Never used the new version smoothstar , but I’d even take the old version over the carver C7
Do you use C7 trucks at all?
Which Carver trucks does Clayton use?
Cx Trucks
I dont understand why they used Carvers 'hybrid' surf skate truck instead of the C7s here.
@@MichaelZimmerer same reason why they don't use Smoothstar
@@MichaelZimmerer С7 is worse surfskate truck imho
I was looking for this answer thank you
Hello guys! Thx for the videos on the channel, very god advices.
Can you HELP me please? Near me there are 3 Pumptracks from Velosolutions. I am about to buy a Carver but don't know what trucks to buy. Another YT said that C7 is more for that cruising and surf feel, but i see you with the CX. Can you advice me?
Cx man
Coooool yeeeeeeeaaaahhh!!!!
Which Carver board would you recommend?
Carver with C7 trucks. I have Kai Lenny lava model and it’s so much fun to ride
More serious comment: Smoothstar's front truck has a tension screw which can stiffen the rotation. Have you tried this?
I just bought a toledo #77 pro and it's amazing. I've been skating carver C7 and cx for over 15 years on various decks, smoothstar work almost the same as C7.
Wot I discovered is ur boards concave complements the surf skates alot, I'm carving, kissing coping and grinding harder than ever in the bowl, it's has nothing to with which are better they all work on the same principle and tweaks u make to board and techique
@@sabrisamsodien1220 I would think tensioning the spring would improve the SmoothStars performance in a park. Unfortunately we don't have any useful skate parks in my area.
Where can I see more footage of that insane bowl?
It's all over our content!
@@ombesurf looks like an amazing training tool for students, but could I get a link where someone is ripping the vertical?
I'm still a little confused. Smoothstar have a thruster truck (wiggly one) and Carver have one that is somewhat similar called the C7, which the company (obviously) rave about. You guys are using the CX truck. Have you tried the C7 and would you rate it over the CX?
If you tried both, you’ll get to the point those 2 are very different. C7 ist way more stiff (even when loosened ) while Smoothstar (even screwed hard) gives more lean and more angle degrees. I sold my C7 because it’s the less surfy feeling. The CX ist great in compression training and fluent style, so I kept this, together with a Smoothstar. Sry for my bad English ;)
Get a Swelltech bro nothing better it is magic!😊
“angry termite” 😂
🤣🤣🤣
So spot-on!
In my opinion a normal skateboard truck is better, as you can ride the bowl with more speed power and flow, exactly like surfing. Knowing how to pump up and down the bowl at the right time and spot is what gives you tremendous speed. Not a spring in a truck, there is no spring in a surfboard, it’s the wave.
You can wiggle with any surfskate. It's definitely not the setup. Of course CX is faster, more forgiving, can ride fakie and is better for liptricks and street tricks. Still the Smoothstar Thruster offers much better flow plus it can do much tighter turns. I think CX is better for park skating and Smoothstar for mellow banks and slopes. Cheers
Totally agree.
@double overhead, which one do you prefer in bowls and poollike skateparks?
@@SunriseSessions I definitely prefer loose systems for parks. Will setup a build with a V-truck soon & and see how it goes.
Agreed. Good rundown.
@@SunriseSessions He said CX for parks. That's the less articulated of the two Carver trucks. Their C7 is more articulated. While there are differing opinions overall, almost everybody agrees that the Carver CX (and copies) is most manageable Surf skate for bowls.
I have a Smoothstar MantaRay; I do ride it on the flat mostly. I think if you make sure to compress and extend to create speed, through long carves, (check Kale Brock's videos), rather than wigglewoggle using your front foot mainly, you'll get a lot more of of the surf-experience out of flat riding. In the bowl, the board's loose front truck gives me so much freedom, I feel confident hitting most angles and taking any lines I want. Totally agree with Clayton though; moving from flat to the bowl wall is critical to get the actual feel of surfing. I can throw a big tail slide on the flat...but I am miles away from YewLayton levels on the walls!
I have a an old 27 penny board, could I use that over a carver ?
Check minute 12:20
Wander, how YOW compares to Carver…
Boom was thinking Carver…bowl next door happy daaaaaaaayz
What a load of bollocks. You can build bad habits (wiggling) just as easily on a Carver CX as any other surfskate and you can hold a drawn out turn on a surf adapter style truck (like the Smoothstar) just as easily also. The main difference is that Smoothstar type trucks require more torsion (as well as compression and weight distribution) than the CX, which in many people's view makes them feel more akin to real surfing.
You can also build good habits skating on the street, if anything it'll teach you to hold your speed much better. That's not to say that skating a bowl isn't good too, but to say that street skaters tend to wiggle is as stupid as saying bowl riders can't execute a powerful top turn. Clayton has clearly arrived at his conclusions prematurely and is just dredging up half-baked evidence to support them.
Exactly. Very biased video towards the "made in usa" carver.. In 2015, while skating some road near the beach In Busan I met Greg Falk. I had a Carver and Smoothstar with me, he totally dismissed the Smoothstar as "a piece of sh#t made in China dude", mind you they were made in Taiwan back then.
At that time, Smoothstars were banned from being sold in the US. I'm glad to see that changed, and that there are so many options now on the market.
Have you used a YOW surf skate?
We have!
@@ombesurf what is your opinion of it?
No surf skate, I prefer to learn surfing by surfing and I don’t fancy being forced out of the water for months because I got injured trying simulate surfing on land.
Found it
I love my surf skates but I don't wanna get wet.
What about waterborne - it does not have the spring and it does not wiggle. Kindly compare carver and waterborne.
We are not sure if they have new products in the market but what we have tested from Waterborne is very similar to Smoothstar. Their adapters encourage wiggling.
@@ombesurf they have a rail adapter now, which makes more lean. I felt it was completely different to smoothstar, and did not encourage wiggling nearly as much. It is much tighter, easy to get drive (not speed) like carver and much more drawn out turn. Never tried it without the rail adapter though
Which model Caver do you recommend?
Try it before buy it. that's our take on this.