I put together my 440 in 1989 and installed Melling high volume oil pump. Moroso 7 qt. oil pan. Put these in a stock 76 440. Dropped it in my 70 GTX. The engine was stock except for the 484 purple shaft cam. And the other parts mentioned. Also hooker headers. Ran the car until 93 and it stayed parked. Pulled it out early this year and rebuilt a stock 70 block .30 over. Steel crank and 10.5 to 1 pistons. 906 aluminum knock off heads. All the stuff from the 76 440 placed into the 70. I was worried about the cams and lifter parts failing so I went with these tried and true. So far, no problems. Fires right up and idles great and rev out smooth. 6 barrel induction set up. I know for a fact that in 89 I did not break the cam in. Prior to 89 I never broke a cam in. And I built 6 engines easily. Never broke a cam in. And all were flat tapper hydraulic lifters. All these engines run today. So I am leaning towards modern part’s failure. We need better QA for the amount of damage and cost this can cause. Thanks DDG for a very informative video.
I just liked the show. I am a retired professional engineer who experienced more than one failure in a long career. As you said the failure is the responsibility of the man in charge, possibly relying on faulty data, info or other judgement items. I applaud you.
Discovered your channel last week or so. Have binged lots of your videos and learned a lot. As a 19yo swedish guy who only i the recent year or so decided mopars are superior despite my upbringing around only chevys and ford based hotrods (thanks to dad being buddies with the guy who basically pioneered hotrods and that stuff in sweden). Hopefully i can use the knowledge i get here and from UTG when i can get my hands on an old mopar! keep making these videos, they are gems!
Here are some things to add to your already good suggestions for successfully installing/breaking in ft cams & lifters. As for better Cooling during 2k-2,500 rpm for 20-25mins,it can easily be kept in check by placing a 20” box fan on high speed on a box directly in front of the grill/radiator core to ensure its blowing cool air thru the rad core at all times. Mix coolant at 50/50 or 65-70% water/35-40 % coolant for best heat transfer. Also,fill cooling system thru intake to till it almost overflows before installing t-stat with rad cap off to help air escape & watch coolant lvl un radiator as your filling it. This allows you to rid cooling system of most all air prior to startup for smoother warmup without 1st overheating motor to get stat open with little yo no coolest hitting it yet. Also drill a small bypass hole in the stat to help remove air from system too. If cooling system uses a clutch fan setup consider switching from std to hvy dty fan clutch for better cooling or at very least ensure current fan clutch & water pump are in good working cond for hood cooling,same gos for the radiator too,30-30yrs old fan clutches & radiators can at times not be up to job if properly cooling our stock or modified muscle car motors. Also ensure all air is pulled thru radiator by cooling fan by installing adhesive backed blk color foam insulation used in ac apps in all air gaps inbetween the radiator core & fan shroud. Doing that ensures all air pulled thru rad core by fan gos thru the rad core & not air gap between rad core & shroud ensuring max cooling at low speeds & it idling at stop lights. In summer heat I also increase idle speed a bit to increase cooling sitting in traffic fir more airflow & cooling thru rad core. Also ensure proper spacing of cooling fan within the fan shroud & between fan blades & rad core too fir proper/max cooling too. Ensure your running proper zddp fortified breakin oil for ft cam & lifter breakin. A great assembly lube that stays put is cranes grey looking sticky Molly paste & cranes oil additive for breakin is great too. As for the red assembly lube you mentioned, your 100% correct that it literally drips/runs off the cam lobes in less then 24hrs post application which is a problem esp if motor isn’t going to be fired up for wks or months later. I have seen it 1st hand and there isn’t enough lube left on cam lobes for safe fire up days or wks post application of that red assembly lube. I personally called the cam mfg tech/engineering staff to speak to them on this and telling them my concerns & alk they said was well when we do cam swaps & testing on our dyno mile motors we don’t see a problem. I again told them the issue is a few days or wks later that thin lube runs off the cam lobes which is an issue resulting in an almost dry start & they again said they don’t see an issue. I realized the person I was talking too didn’t get it or refused to admit there’s an issue so I let it go that day. I called the tech line again to hopefully speak to a different tech/engineer which did happen but I got the same basic response,can’t fix stupid. I use gm 7 blade 772 ac cooling fan with hvy dty fan clutch,hi flow pump & high flow 160 deg stat too. Before I install the intake I also adjust thevalve train (where applicable) so I can then reapply the assembly lube that’s wiped off csm lobes when spinning motor over when doing valve adj to ensure better protection on 1st fire up. Ensure your running enough base timing with a min of (14-16deg) when running an aftermarket non stock cam with more duration because retarded base timing causes motor to run much hotter. Run approx 34-38deg total timing all in by approx 2500-2,600 rpm max. Ensure your running enough octane in fuel with an aggressive street perf timing curve & back off/reduce timing if detonation is heard or seen on spark plugs (small metal shinny looking metallic spots on plug porcelain). Ensure you have firing order correct,carb filled with fuel,oil system primed & battery fully charged for quick fire up with minimal cranking time. Best the change oil & filter right after 20-25min breakin time is done refilling with proper zddp fortified oil when running flat tappet setups. Change that oil & filter at 500 miles & return to 3k oil & filter changes after that when using conventional & or syn blend oil with proper elevated zddp lvl for ft cam & lifter setups. Iv’e been doing the above for all the stock & aftermarket high perf ft cam / lifter installs & break-ins iv’e done in the past 50+ yrs with 100% success so far. Gm’s old Gen EOS/engine oil supplement was a good oil additive for ft can/lifter breakin too. Heat/temp wise My 69 chevelle ss396 4spd with mild modded motor (approx 375-380hp/430-440lbs trq) in 85-90deg summer heat runs 178-180 deg f max at cruise & in traffic at stoplights too using above rec to reduce heat. I run a stock Hd copper brass Harrison 4 row radiator with temp sending unit in stock location in driver side head by exhaust port in head that typically runs 15-30deg hotter then if temp sender is in the intake being far away from exhaust heat driving higher temp gauge reading by 15-30 deg in summer heat. Happy motoring! Scott
Summer and when you know that you are going to be sitting in traffic awhile I learned that truck with the Oldsmobile v8 powered Buick Regal and Delta 88 and Oldsmobile V8 power 98 cars I had and copied it to the Chevy truck 355 and the truck got a newer aluminum radiator.
My induction and fan setup at the time of break in failure both ended up getting changed except the intake manifold and are as follows the fan was a 16 inch I believe 6 blade chrome and blue aluminum flex lite straight fan and 2 inch spacer and bolts from auto zone parts store, and the intake manifold was a Holley street dominator aluminum intake manifold and the carb used in the break in was a Edelbrock performer 1407 750cfm manual choke I referred to as the drag carb, and it ended up going right back to the factory 7 blade 86 chevy k20 sbc ac clutch fan and shroud and then my brother drove it through the woods and the shroud got busted all to pieces but that is another story... and the carb was the Napa crate motor replacement m4mc non computer feedback 795cfm quadrajet electric choke carburetor I took off the truck because even though the Edelbrock had decent throttle response it sucked gas like going out of style and the qjet properly tuned and rebuilt again was just a better carb
Like you said, "if ya ain't learning...." We all have those days we're, what should work, or has always worked in the past, just...doesn't. Expensive yes, but lessons aren't cheap!
And yeah in my experience they are never cheap and that's not even counting fixing them just to acquire it back where it came from as in the vehicle back home because I have only had two break at home. . and acquiring the repair parts and gaskets and materials..
Lifter bore issues can cause the lifter not to spin I always run a burnishing ball through each bore surprising how tolerances change from motor to motor also oil through solid lifters a big help.Love the channel keep ‘em coming!
That was done here. I discussed lifters dropping in and spinning freely in previous installments. I definitely could have mentioned that in this video as well. Whoops.
Appreciate your honesty and candor, as well as avoiding the typical YT references to these processes as analogous in complexity to mapping the human genome.
Great video man. The cam break in was the #1 reason I was so hesitant and a bit frightened of firing the "not a Dodge" up for the first time. I agree that a good percentage of cam failures are installer error, but with most of the horror stories these days about "Stomp" there has to be something going on there.
Around year 2000 new rebuilt 451 mopar .488 lift Comp cam and lifters, heavier Crane valve springs no windage tray, regular 30 wt oil no zinc additives 20 minutes at 2000 rpm break in and no problems. Replaced heads this year cam and lifters were perfect. Never heard of break in oil at the time.
I’ve had only the best luck too - before this. I’ve used windage trays, the wrong springs, aggressive cams, used cams and lifters… there are a lot of reasons why that doesn’t always work anymore - hence the video.
You are absolutely correct! I have 69 roadrunner with 440-6. I have mechanical cam,with roller rockers comp cam split lift and duration. 1967 only 915 heads. I broke my cam in over 20 years ago. Motor still screams! I broke my cam in at 2000 for 20 minutes with no problems, then I installed the inner second valve spring after cam break in
The windage tray keeps the crankshaft from whipping the oil in the pan into a froth. It has no effect on the oil slinging out of the rod bearings (which is what gets on the cam). Another issue I have had with Mopar and non-Mopar engines is the oiling notch on the rod bearing shells. Most new bearings don't have this notch, but it's been a while since I've done an big block. New small block bearings generally don't. There's reasons for this, but on a street engine, it's better to have more oil spraying around than less. Since you're not using some ridiculous valve spring pressures, I would guess it was a crap lifter with insufficient crown, or it was tight in it's bore and wouldn't rotate.
I think you're right in a crap lifter being the culprit. I already made a video explaining that - but there is more to this issue than just a part failure. I have learned a lot since that failure, and I wanted to wrap it all up in one more video - which many people seem to appreciate. I really wish I had covered lifter bore fit in this video, because they absolutely moved freely. I covered this in other videos, but it would've been good to have it here in the wrap up so people would stop saying that. As far as the windage tray's job, there seems to be an incomplete understanding of what it does. It exists to interrupt the windage around the crankshaft generated by its rotation, and keep as much oil as is practical from getting caught up in that windage. That includes oil dripping down from the valley and coming from the bearings, as well as any oil that could potentially be splashing up from the sump. Yes, it acts as a barrier between splashing pan oil and the crankshaft, but there are other parts in even factory performance type oil pans that are specifically meant to control the sump oil. The amount of oil that the tray removes from around the crankshaft might be a totally moot point. But it was something several people brought up, and it made good sense to me, so for now I am going to stick with it, and I included it here. Anything that could help get oil on the camshaft during break in is a good thing in my eyes. The oiling holes in the rod bearings are indeed absent from just about all replacement bearings these days. As I understand, their intended purpose was piston skirt cooling. Something similar is done in turbo diesel engines with oil nozzles directed at the piston skirts. The OEs decided they were essentially superfluous in this type of engine decades ago. I have seen others try to explain them as being for camshaft lubrication, but I think they only aid in that insofar as they throw extra oil out to be caught up by the crankshaft. I agree that extra oil being thrown around is better than less in these applications, for the reasons I discussed in the video. If the factory wanted to direct oil at the camshaft directly, they could have done that through other means.
Something has definitely changed, I’m in my late 40’s and put at least 15 flat tappet cams over the years. Never had any issues until the last 10 years. I never knew there were so many expert engine builders until I commented on Lubetube. Can’t imagine the comments you received but probably half are from people that have never turned an oil filter.
It has become more prevalent, but just today a commenter explained how this happened to him in the year 2000. Another explained how race builders have been using break-in springs for decades because this has always been a risk. We have shittier parts, shittier oils, and more aggressive cams and springs. It’s not a hard equation to figure out. There are a lot of people who know in the comments. There are also people who don’t. My method in life is to take information from all available sources, evaluate and compare, and find the happy middle ground that makes sense to me. Hence, this video.
Good vlog. 6 years ago, same issue, same cam lifter package. Everything you mentioned was mostly correct except the windage tray. my stock 2bll 383 was original, didn't have one. one mentioned keeps oil from foaming. was going to make a vlog but didn't. you touched on but need to go more in depth which pertains to high mileage worn blocks we're all building. i knew and skipped this step (assembling in carport during rainy winter season yuk) ... the first time of insuring not only lifters drop in and hand spin freely with no load but under load. deep inside the lifter bore is the oil galley, over time the edge gets worn razor sharp. New lifters have an oil groove cut into them, very sharp edges. under load these two sharp surfaces interact which caused one lifter from spinning. i failed to mark each lifter, turn engine over before installing intake to ensure each lifter is spinning(with valve train installed). second go around with different manufacture you mentioned that voodoo spirit, 4 lifters would not spin. lightly filing oil galley edge and 4oo grit wet sand paper lightly scuffing lifter oil groove edges on all lifters. after re-install rotation from all lifters. second break-in perfect, stilling running to this day. check my vlog for voodoo bump note. believe i have piston slap as brand new carb (hooley, love'em though) on first break-in started flooding, pin hole in float.. what else could go wrong you ask? had mechanic from that max car company help to complete in a weekend. unfortunately not securing all plug wires probably contributed to piston slap condition as it ran rich on one cylinder wiped all oil from walls. it'll still turn 6k though, i've eased up on those runs :- ) as the slap has grown louder. only time i had help, only time i experienced failures... just saying. thanks for sharing!
All very good tips, wish you had mentioned massaging the breaking lube into the lobe pores. Ive failed to do that in a bbc and wiped out lobes. Were all here learning. Thanks for your honesty❤
Have set of very small ratio rockers for break in on bbc. So far I’ve never had an issue. I’ve also done some old school lifter bore scaring to drip more oil on the cam.
I've had a thought about using a spare valley cover and drilling a hole through it such that I can run a tube through it that is connected to oil pressure. Have 16 tiny holes drilled in this tube that will be over each lobe and have the open end pinched off. This would be only for break in and once it is done it would all be removed. This would make for sure plenty of oil gets to the cam and lifters during break in. I have not done this so I can't speak to if it would help but I don't think it would hurt.
In Europe we use Adamol 15W40 engine oil that US Made in Austria Vienna by Adamol and has 1135PPM ZDDP inside and its more affordable compared to Boutique high end classic oils
I have always done the way you have, but its been awhile since I have built one. I have a couple engines coming up so this is a nice refresher, plus I been curious about all these cam issues too. When this first started happening everyone was blaming manufacturers but I was like wait it makes more sense this is a installer problem. I think your assessment is probably the most spot on, blame can be a little bit of everything. You know 20 years ago we got away with breaking in how we did, but manufacturing changed in that time, metallurgy changed, oils changed, but we didn't change. Man I don't recall the reasoning for taking break-in to 3k because its been to long but at the time it seemed most logical. I was taught to max it out at 3k but only be there for like a minute or 2, the biggest amount of time is spent in the 2k range.
Oh sure. I rev it up to that neighborhood for brief periods, but mostly keep it in the 2000 range. It definitely doesn’t need to park at 3000 the whole time. Yeah… things have changed. I completely agree that parts have gotten worse. There’s a reason I gave that issue top billing in this video. I just know that things are more complex than that, and want to get people thinking about every aspect of the problem.
@@DeadDodgeGarage If your still taking suggestions for video topics, I have a spicy topic for you that I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on. How about a video on the fusible link? As someone who has a lot of experience with different kinds of electrical, I lean more towards the camp that says replace it with an appropriate sized fuse. At the same time I do appreciate the argument that the engineers designed it that way for a reason.
@@Mopardude I didn't know people were replacing them with fuses. Haha. I don't know if I'm qualified for this. My inclination is usually to keep things as stock as possible - ain't broke, don't fix, etc. The fusible link has done right by me to this point. I've only cooked a couple of them over the years by being stupid - and that seems pretty good!
with all the flat tappet cam BS in recent years i would not even consider using one unless it was NOS. just go to a roller setup then there is no worries about taper/crown, break in or zinc oils
Last build a 273 with a mild "RV" cam. Used the black grease that came with the cam kit, only lube in the lifter bores was a shot of WD-40, filled it with 5W-30 Quaker State full synthetic, no prelube turning the oil pump. Fired it up and drove it, kept the revs up the first 20-30 minutes. Over 6k on it now, no issues.
I’m glad that worked out for you. No reputable engine builders recommend starting a new engine on synthetic oil, and prelubing the engine is a really good idea. I’ll defer to the experts on that.
The left side of your brain might be saying... "Where is the normal clever and humorous reply by Bad Ash?" Well, hold on tight to your worn out Tuff wheel! After watching this fine video, I don't think that Uncle Tony is screaming at you now! This is the best video on cam failure that I have ever seen! Awesome job Jamie! One thing I'd like to tell you incase you did know. There is a company that makes Johnson Hy-lift lifters right here in America that are premium quality and premium priced. I buy them from Huges Engines. Another thing that I do is put a mark on all the lifters before I install the intake manifold, and turn the engine over to make sure all the lifters are turning. As far as what's going on inside the wrong side of your brain, I have no clue, but am guessing that it has something to do with corn dogs! Love always, Bad Ash
Thanks Steve. I definitely expected something with more sarcasm here 😅 I learned about Johnson as well during this whole fiasco - but I have seen others say that what is sold as Johnson now, much like other brands, is nothing like the old Johnson lifters. So I don’t know where that leaves us.
Thanks, another excellent video. When I get to the breakin on my small block, I'll follow the directions provided by Hughes Engines, since I'm using one of their cams. They call for varying the RPM between 1500 and 3000RPM for the first 30 minutes, but they break it up in 10 minute intervals with 10 minute cooldowns between (elsewhere it says 1500 - 2500RPM so I'll call them to get the reals). Then 20 hour engine runtime before its truly broken in. My kit is all as spec'd by Hughes so should be GTG with US made Johnson lifters, but like the computer security guru says, and you imply, "Trust no one" so it'll all get checked. They recommend break in oil so doing that too, though I'm hoping I can move to the Castrol GTX Classic (high zinc oil) or other more available oil afterwards.
Oh yeah. You should be fine with any of those higher zinc, “racing” type oils after break in. I definitely don’t trust any of them to just be good anymore, but some have said that Hughes is. We have done a couple of their rollers. I’ve never gotten my hands on one of their flat tappets just yet.
Great video! I agree with everything except the windage tray. The oil that splashes onto the cam actually comes from the rod bearings leaking and slinging oil onto the cam, in fact some rods have spit holes at the rod bolts.
My understanding was the squirters were for bore / piston skirt cooling for the opposite bank. But I’m not an expert. All of this era of Chrysler engines had those, but almost no aftermarket rod bearings have the provision for them now. Apparently at some point they were deemed extra. Lots of people have taken issue with the windage tray thing. It’s something a couple commenters mentioned and it made sense to me. Maybe it’s bullshit.
Yep - you live and learn...and then you apply your new knowledge in the next go. And if there's more to learn, you pick that up too.... That's life, mate.....the best it can be!
I haven't read thru all current 245 replies, but using portable box fans to also blow at the radiator has always prevented overheating on my break-ins, though done in the car. Would have to blow at the radiator on your cart though it may look smallish, can't tell. My usual machine shop always asks if I want the inner springs left out for break in and I have started saying yes.. They also suggest the Isky Rev Lube moly paste for cam and lifter faces, but not lifter bores. I keep it on hand. They've said that with all this plus break in oil and even extra ZDDP that some people also use, that once in a while one doesn't survive, but it's the best foot you can put forward.
Thank you for sharing, I can’t tell you how helpful and educational this video was for me. I really enjoy the content. A thought….. Could you cut a small groove in the lifter bores from the middle down to allow oil to drain onto cam lobe?? (A very small groove so as to not did oil pressure) Maybe he’s a triangular file and cut a .020” groove Just a thought
@@DeadDodgeGarage Agreed...It was a thought, I do have them from time-to-time between brain farts. The quality control issues are alarming...20 years ago we weren't using break in oils and zinc additives blah blah blah....slap a cam in it, lube it up with motor oil and fire it up!! You really brought up some very valid points about the splash oiling, windage trays and modern detergent oils. I'm wondering if the cam manufactures have some responsibility to provide some more specific directions related to your points?? OR...maybe try to update some manufacturing techniques to help circumvent the new challenges?? OR maybe they hate us and want us to just die and buy electric vehicles, planned obsolescence. Thanks again!!!
Back in 2000 I had my first cam Fail and eat a couple lobes when I built my current 440 Using the purple shaft 484 /284 Mopar performance Cam , and hydraulic lifer set , also new valve springs with dampener set rated for this cam lift and heavy duty stamped rockers , I did not check, cam surface slopes or the spring pressures open and closed . I used the provided Mopar cam lubricant which was more like honey with moly additives , oversized 2.14 & 1.81 stainless steel Mildon race valves , hardened exhaust seats, and I ported the 906 heads... I wanted Bronze Guides, however the machinist convinced me they were not necessary probably based on my limited budget, big mistake! the knurled guides were to loose and sloppy , thus oil consumption and some noise became a problem .. I installed another new purple shaft 484 cam and lifer set a 108 degree centerline , and used much better sticky thick ' Moly Lube Paste instead of the honey like oil based mopar lube , on the cam lobes and lifer faces, all lifers were pre primed with oil.. I made sure to use my old trusty Holly 780 carburetor , primed ready to run, and a good distributor, pre primed the Engine high volume oil pump just before start up . started up with out to much cranking time. and ran for 20 minutes at around 2200 + RPMS , used a basic 30 weight NON Detergent motor oil. just for the break in run only , I may have added a quart or two of oil with high zink and then ended up running a high zink 20-50 race oil due to the loose valve guides and high oil consumption. MY next engine build will be built with more precision to avoid these issues ...
I need more stories like this, explaining that this was happening twenty years ago. People think this is a new problem and that the sky is suddenly falling, and that it’s all Comp’s fault. It’s not.
And my Chevy 355 had a built in windage tray because the oil pan from the factory equipment truck was modified, and the spec if I remember correctly was 2500rpm for 20 minutes??
When I tear down old engines I have not seen cam & lifter damage- mostly just normal wear. I have ran a lifter valley trays on my sb mopars for decades. First I noticed oil stayed cleaner longer from not getting roasted on the exhaust crossover, and the film strength of the oil (booger test) was also better for more miles, and the oil getting on the cam from the tray probably helped somewhat. Smokey Yunick used to write tech articles for Circle Track magazine- because of the rules on lifters in NASCAR, lower seat pressure 'break-in' springs were used on fresh engines- my first knowledge was mid.'80's but the practice probably far pre-dated that, replaced near race day by extreme springs to turn the rpms needed on racing day. I only have a few non-hydraulic roller lifter blocks left, a few nib 0.500-ish '90's cams (big lift low duration) looking to use either Howards lifters with the hole edm'd dead center of lifter face or Crowers with the flat spot top-to-bottom on the side for cam face oiling to hopefully survive. I too have spent a bunch of time down the cam/lifter failure rabbit-hole. Several reputable engine builders have Rockwell Hardness checked the cams- seem to be within spec., they checked lobes for proper taper- seemed correct. I have checked my cams and their supplied lifters- seem fine. 14K Subs-Wow!!
Good video, just installed new cam kit valve train. Everything good, but my felpro intake gasket sweat a tiny bead of coolnt. Like a sponge, ever had this,?seems like only in hot humid weather it will do it when the car sit over night in garage, used thread sealant and some red rtv around water ports
I’m assuming this is small block as there is no coolant through the big block intake. I’ve had similar problems with a bad intake fit and the cork end seals in place. They tend to hold the intake up away from the gaskets to varying degrees. I generally leave those end seals out and use a bead of silicone there. I once was convinced to use them in a 340, and it was so bad, there was coolant flowing into the oil.
Oh yeah! This engine isn’t a performance build, it is a factory type restoration. We put great effort into getting the little details like that right. Unfortunately this one had to come back apart after paint, so it will require some touch up. Just for the record, the factory calls that something like a tappet noise insulation pad. It can’t do much to keep heat away from the intake when there is exhaust flowing through the heat crossover in the intake right above it. Thanks!
Very good, but I cant understand how the wind age tray being installed is a problem, the tray is below crank, so it only hinders oil already in the pan from wrapping around crank at very high rpms... it doesnt interfere with the natural oil spray from crank bearing bleed. Can you explain more on this?
It’s something I hadn’t thought of, but a couple commenters mentioned it, and it makes good sense to me. Yes, the windage tray sits *below* the crank, and it separates the sump oil from the crank, but its job is to disrupt any oil that is being thrown around by the crank - be that oil raining from the lifter bores, running out of bearing surfaces, what have you. That oil landing on or near the crank is caught up in its windage - the air flow generated by its rotation - and if you imagine what that does, it’s going to get caught in the rotation of the crank before it can be thrown outward. The windage tray is trying to disrupt that airflow and redirect the oil to the sump. Anything that reduces the amount of oil that is splashing around during camshaft break in seems bad. Maybe it’s not important. Maybe it’s something to consider. Hopefully the theory at least makes sense.
I got footage of it running that will be used for a wrap up video on the 1970 Dodge Monaco wagon it belongs to. We have since reinstalled it in the car.
Im loving the Chanel. I’ve learned a lot from you. Im curious if you have ever used Racer Brown cams. I have one in my 440. Jim is the machienest and he answers the phone when you call. Give him a call when you build your next engine and see what you think.
Comp cams are mostly very good, but obviously today they are letting some stuff get through that's not machined right. Back in the day, no one was super fussy and the cams survived fine with just some break-in lube and running it at 2,000 rpm (varying) for about 20-30 minutes. People just used the high-zinc oil that was sold everywhere, like Castrol GTX 20-50. It may be best to just get a Lunati cam ($$$) versus taking another brand to a machinist and having them check it. Lunati is good. Comp is really good ,"Mostly". Some stuff from Comp is slipping through. their quality control (or lack of it). Lunati might be your best bet.. Everything you said is absolutely correct, But I'm pointing that one one was taking out the windage tray and putting in lighter valve springs for the break-in, Back in the 'early '70's, practically everyone was swapping in performance cams and they were all flat tappet cams. I very , very rarely heard of a roller cam back then. One advantage of being 68 years old. is that I remember how it was. Btw, I used to adjust the dwell and timing (with the light) by cranking the engine with the spark plugs out (in certain situation), Cranking dwell and timing. If the car won't start, I'd pull all the plugs, then swap the points and condenser and get them dialed in perfect before I actually started. I still think points ignitions are superior to electronic. The stupid "mechanics" back in the day almost never set them perfect, , often didn't use points lube. or clean any the wire connectors, check the mechanical and vacuum advance , points cam in the distributor for wear, check to if the new points had a burr on the rubbing block.,, etc, etc. So me, the "amateur" got jobs fixing stuff the "pros" screwed up.
Lunati and Crane are pretty much a memory. Both have been 'absorbed' by the Comp group or Edelbrock. EVERYTHING Lunati has is on backorder indefinitely. MOST of what comp provides is custom CNC ground stuff on their Landis machines. All their catalog offerings are mostly 'white box' stuff ground off site on huge gang grinders by Camshaft Machine Co. in Jackson Mich. I was going to buy a Lunati at Summit, had it saved in my 'wishlist' now it says 'No longer available'. NO Lunati at Summit or Jegs. They are history. Problem is age. These engines are 50-60 years old. Rebuilt multiple times by now. Who ever checks lifter bores? I've seen some engines .060+ overbore and cranks .040 under on journals. The other issue is loss of manufacturing knowledge or skill of previous generations. Last flat tappet engine produced by the OE was late 80's. Machinists that knew how to operate those lifter facing machines are long gone. I don't think any company is going to invest millions in new modern machinery equipment to make a product for a limited segment of the aftermarket. So they use old unmaintained equipment with worn out bearings and parts. Even in 2000, 23 years ago there were 4 separate manufacturers of Flat tappet lifters. All US based, US companies. One left, and it's not one of the 'original' manufacturers that did it back in the day. Maybe in name only. The current 'Johnson', well both 'Johnson's have NOTHING to do with the old Johnson Lifter's owned by Sealed Power when they were in Muskegon. AC Delco. Gone. Eaton. Gone. Stanadyne. Gone. Some were better than others but any of those were better than what you get today.
Hey, I got where I am with tuning by fiddling with screws and timing and listening to how engines respond, and I gained my electrical knowledge by breaking down, or piecing A-bodies back together… not by training in a classroom, a factory, or anywhere else.
@@DeadDodgeGarage That's cool! I used to be a professional engineer but not that kind. I learned on the fly too. The hard way. Some say the best way cause you never forget. I was talking about the manufacturing industry regarding loss of knowledge. I spoke to a guy a while back at the 'other' Johnson lifter. The machine that puts that crown on the lifter is a very complex operation and that machine is specialized and super expensive. I watched one in operation. It's like an oribital finisher that pivots on it's axis. That's why the lifters look like they have those 'scuffs' all around the radius of the base. The crown is only .001-.002 but needs to be consistent. I believe the problem with some of these 'newer' lifters is the pattern is football shaped instead of circular on the crown even if you can detect something of taper.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I read the books, but I also listened to what the mechanics said. They knew a lot of stuff that wasn't in the books. Back then a lot of work people did was pretty sloppy. That's why the points ignitions got a reputation for being "unreliable". Actually, all the old stuff was very reliable and a lot more simple.
@@vincemajestyk9497 that matches what I have seen in videos by a machinist on TH-cam whose name I can’t think of right now - he chucked up a brand new lifter and started resurfacing it, and a football-like oval pattern appeared showing his machine was resurfacing that area and not yet touching the whole face. So… that ain’t good…
I'll tell you one awkward way I bleed a lot of the air out of the cooling system when filling the system. I grab a little kernel of oil dry and put it in the thermostat so it holds the stat open a little. Sometimes I've drilled a small hole in the flange part of the thermostat. Once, I experimented and drilled two 1/8-inch holes in the flange, I guess it was too much, it would not warm up while idling. I blocked one of the holes and the engine warmed up fine.
Interesting. The screwdriver has always worked pretty well for me. I’ll never drill another thermostat. I do like the “ultra stat” with the little jiggle valve for bleeding the system. There are plenty of good ways to get it done.
Well I run Shell Rotella 15/40 in all my flat tappet engines , gas and diesel or I could run Delo 15/40 but If I remember right Rotella has a tad bit more zinc . Most all engine oils they have taken the zinc out because a lot of engine are OHV and because of smog and EPA . You could also buy Racing oil that has zinc in it but my flat tappet engine have never been rebuilt and are stock .
We need to find a cam company that checks their workmanship before boxing it up. Apparently it's not Comp Cams. It's just not realistic as a hobby muscle car home shop mechanic to have to do high level grind inspections that may be over our pay grade on a brand new setup. We need to do the stuff that is in our wheelhouse as much was detailed very very well in this video. I expect that the new parts are good if they come from a company in business as long as CC. Need to find a cam company that is sending out quality controlled products.
Is there anything that can be done to prep the lifter bores? I followed instructions on the Hughes website and have a handful of lifters that ride up on the lobe but don't follow it back down. I'm wondering what I can do to help with that?
Oh that’s definitely not what you want. As you know, they really need to drop right in and move smoothly. I did not discuss that in this video, but did in previous videos on this engine. Yes - there are different ways they can be refinished. Any of them will require thorough cleaning of the attached oil passages afterward, so if your engine is partially assembled, unfortunately you’ll really want to break it back down. I’ve seen rust spots that I’ve removed with steel wool and some lubricant. I’ve seen nicks, proud spots and similar which I have removed with light sanding. And, they can be refinished with a small hone. This is essentially what the machine shop does. I imagine something like a small brake cylinder hone is pretty ideal for this - although I have never attempted it myself.
The windage tray is a non-issue. I've never removed them and looked into this. The oil is draining down from the block and hits the crank then the tray before draining into the pan. The crank is above the tray so will still aerate or agitate the oil draining back from the valley. It might actually help but isn't a detriment. Actually, the more important thing is the fact that rod bearing shells are made without the notch for the rod oil piss holes now. Have been for some time. While it's not a causal factor for a wiped cam it sure could help these days having the extra oil thrown around. You can get break in rockers with 1.2-1.3 ratio. I would use the factory stamped rockers for break in since they are rarely 1.5:1. If you are running adjustables I would break in with the stamped stockers. I think the biggest likelihood of your issue was the lifters. I've broken in cams on the 'Hemi' Springs with 310-340 psi without a problem. I wouldn't recommend it though. I've always used the black moly paste lube. It's thick and what 'works for me'. I have been checking the taper on my cam and lifters. All you need is a 'Vee' block a dial indicator and a magnetic fixture. But even if you don't have those you can just assemble everything without the pushrod and check your lifter rotation to make sure they all spin. If some don't you can swap them around in the bores until they all do. Some may spin faster or slower than other. That's OK. As long as they all spin. I paint a white stripe or a '+' on the pushrod top and pull the valve covers and spin the starter or crank it up for a few seconds and check the rotation. BTW, there is only ONE US based HFT manufacturer. And even they are probably not what they used to be for a number of reasons. Safest bet. BUY NOS. Last I checked Johnson's were selling for $300-$400 a set. You can buy 2 sets of vintage NOS lifters for that price.
Damn it, I didn’t mention NOS lifters at all in this video, did I?! That’s what we put in this engine 🤦♂️ I knew I was forgetting something important. For crissake. This engine is running stamped rockers so… done. But I am not familiar with break in rockers. That’s really interesting. I completely agree - I think it was a crappy lifter failure. I already made a video in which I said exactly that. The purpose of this video was really to wrap up everything I’ve learned since then, and try to give a better big picture view of what’s going on here. Someone commented before about making sure pushrods were spinning too. I recently had valve covers off of a perfectly good engine and watched for this. Many of the pushrods didn’t spin. I have questions.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Good deal. That's really your safest bet. '98-'01 that was the beginning of the 'problems'. I think the original 'Johnson' was bankrupt by then. Eaton just quit the HFT biz and Stanadyne was going under. All the HFT's that come in cam kits now are either 'hit or miss' Johnson's (HyLift/USA) or really sketchy Mexican Sealed Power (reboxed). There was (is) another REALLY great Johnson Lifter from Taylor, MI but unfortunately, they bailed of the HFT market in 2016 or 2017. They did make some nice lifters for a while. I always thought it might be a good idea to take some junk valve covers and cut a long window along the side (facing the intake) and silicone on a piece of plexiglass just to watch the pushrods and make sure they're spinning during run in. I have seen some start and stop early during break in but OK at the end. I think most of the bad lifters are Mexican.
@@DeadDodgeGarage If your pushrods are spinning it means your lifters are spinning and rotating. It's hard to see sometimes. You need to clean off the top of the pushrods near the rocker and use a paint pen and mark a stripe 1" long or so (maybe put a '+') so it's easy to see. Bottom line, if you can't see pushrod rotation the lifters isn't either. It's because of the force when the cam is opening the valve the lifter and pushrod are solid so any rotational movement is transferred to the pushrod. I learned that from an old tech guy at a cam company many ages ago.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Break in rockers are an easier way of lowering spring pressure without changing valve springs. Typically somewhat less than your 'normal' 1.5 rocker arm ratio. Most of the stamped Mopar rockers are anywhere from 1.34 up to 1.43 or so. Rarely ever actually 1.5. Even if you have a hydraulic cam it's worth it to get a cheap set of adjustables to get the full lift and dur from your cam. More of the lift though. To be honest though unless you have crazy spring pressure 330-340+ you wouldn't need them.
Back in the 60's we never had issues with cam/lifter in Chryslers. The only engines with inherent cam issues were sb Chevys. But most of those engines didnt have windage trays. Cams and lifters were largely stock, as were springs and rockers. Very often cams and lifters were used and not always inserted into the proper holes. We were just dumb kids, learning and no doubt lucky. I guess better oil and eorn out val e springs?
Windage tray is a 'non-issue'. If you knew nothing else about oiling, physics, etc. The factory never took them out to run-in an engine nor did anyone in the last 50-60 years and empirical evidence proves it isn't a problem. Granted the lobe profiles were milder but still.
I definitely see those as factors. Even the “performance” cams of that day were nothing like what we’ve got now. As I understand, the Chevy problem is down to a smaller diameter lifter? I recall there was a rash of failures there in the 80s or something. I try to not have to know about Chevys.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Yup, I know what you're referring to with the GM core crisis. that was actually across all divisions I think and it was traced to cores not being heat treated properly. So yes, a smaller lifter has less load bearing surface and won't rotate as fast. The old 'Low Taper' Hemi and 6bbl hydraulic cams from 1970-71 had a flatter contact area and was moved closer to the edge to 'promote' lifter rotation. I've seen these lifters called 'High Rotation' lifters in some parts catalogs. I used to have a couple sets a few years ago and sold them. Good luck finding either a cam or lifters for either if you have one or the other. Reason they did it was for longevity. The OE 'Hemi' valve springs used on those engines were 298-310 lbs open depending on what spec you believed. Compared to 250 ish for a stock Magnum 'red' spring. I did measure those 'Low Taper' lifters and the were practically flat. Only .0005-.001 taper. I'd be afraid to run those now. It was just the factory engineers being cautious. Those cams had HUGE ramps anyway.
Ive had people well friends actually had suggested Howard's and summit racing brand cams and lifters and I think im leaving the dodge ram be it doesn't have valve train noise and after the sbc build up the 355 i don't want to add it just for it to get a nice lope..
We heard that too, and ordered one from Howard’s. It took two months to get. Looking forward to seeing what that is like when it goes in an engine. Haven’t so much as inspected it yet.
Jamie, if I was building a 340 or a 360 how can I build it to get the most bottom-end mid-range torque out of it and could you recommend a Cam and lifters for that purpose?
I can’t really recommend a cam for that any better than a catalog. There are so, so many options. These days, “the way” seems to be relatively high lift combined with less duration for less lope and better low end performance, and good top end power. But the word “relatively” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Compared to the .444 lift cam, .484 would be substantially larger - and yet relatively little lift by today’s “everything needs 500 HP” standards. I can tell you the .515 lift Thumpr in my 360 is definitely not what you want. I think the best thing for you to do would be to contact a cam grinder. Tell them your combination, what you want to do with this car, and let them make some recommendations. If you have an automatic with a stock stall and highway gears, you would be shooting yourself in the foot with a radical cam choice.
I wish I could say I'm a gear-head when I compliment you on this tutorial. What I can say is that I like, and I believe there's a large populace out here that naturally is into mechanical inquisition. I feel mechanics and the understanding of same is innate in our biological DNA. Ergo, I'm transfixed by these videos about things mechanical in which I've depended on for my entire life. The combustion engine is an amazing multitude of bits and parts that come together to transport the human and all our needs, wants and desires. Now I'll add what maybe I've said here before as it always applies in such cases. The definition of 'experience' is simple. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted. What say you Jamie?
p.s. edit, I forgot to add that I watch your channel bc I like how you bring the story to me. Your patter for me is comfortable to my ear. Keep on doing what you do and how you do it, sans any self conscious concerns regarding your presentation, your presentation is IMO, humble but as one that had been involved in oration for a living, quite well received and easy on the ear.
Well I definitely appreciate that. And I have to agree on experience. I do think at least a bit of learning comes from things going as expected… but you get so much more out of the unexpected. I sure do, anyway. What an interesting journey this is.
This channel really is story telling. There are cars, there is failure, there are dumb jokes. Heck, sometimes there is useful information! But what I’m really doing is telling a story. I realized that relatively recently. I’m not entirely sure what to do with that information. Enough people like it for me to say that it works as a style, and to keep doing it. Haha.
When Dan at DD Speed Shop had the big block Chevy cam fail on his video he didn’t understand what had happened and and after he got hold of that same cam company and explained what happened well I guess he felt like he got screwed just like what happened to me and DDG and after that he made another video wearing a tee shirt that said comp scams. I’m guessing he didn’t get a replacement and like what they did to me as well put the blame on myself. I’ve built 20 or 30 engines myself and my first failure was last year and I followed every damn step in the book but hell I’m just an old man and I’m an idiot or at least that cam company made me feel that way after talking to them.
Right there with you, I think. I tried to blame the manufacturer - and really, it could be their fault. But I didn’t check them properly. It sucks we have to do that now… there were multiple shortcomings on my end that added up to what happened. I can learn. Happy to do it.
Funny that this video popped up on my feed. Was at my local machine shop yesterday where I was at last week on the same day and was just thinking about this subject when the video came up. Anyway, last week my buddy who also builds engines came in before I left to exchange some lifters he’d picked up for a stock build there. The lifters he brought in were supplied by TRW and had a step machined in the crown of the mating surface that measured 0.0015 deep on the outside circumference to 0.175 towards the center. What’s funny to me is that the lifters the machine shop gave him were manufactured by Elgin who as most of us know used to be the biggest supplier of flat tappet hydraulic and solid lifters and camshafts for many different cam sellers here in the US, including TRW. Not trying to delve into politics in any way but thanks to the Clinton administration signing NAFTA or the free trade agreement many manufacturers and suppliers started farming out or sourcing materials as well as machining overseas. The quality control and standards of those parts aren’t even comparable to the parts made here. Sadly this has caused a lot of time wasted for myself and several of my buddies by sourcing parts off of the internet for new old stock and phone call after phone call to what ends up being keyboard clickers who don’t have a clue about the parts they sell. You bring up a ton of good points in this video. The only one I had trouble wrapping my head around was the 3,000 rpm for 30 minutes comment you mentioned. Absolutely no reason to run an engine that fast for that long that I could ever think of. 20 minutes of varying rpm around 2k has worked for me for 30 years and yes in a couple of different cycles is just fine. Never had a problem heat cycling one like that, wear patterns have been good so far and yes break in springs are a good idea especially when using aggressive double or even triple springs. I’m one of those people who immediately changes the break in oil, only because of the fact that I have to know that the oil hasn’t separated out and cooled off leaving anything behind. Became more critical of doing so after starting to work with methanol as well as having to use zinc additives. Anyway, great video again, really enjoy seeing informative stuff on this channel. 👍
Yeah I really don’t know what that guy was on about. I have never seen a reputable builder advise that. It sounded pretty nutso - but he was very sure about it. I know. Nothing is made like it used to be… let’s get it cheap, right? I would much prefer to pay extra for quality. Hopefully there are enough NOS cams and lifters to keep us going for a while… but I’m going to need to go make nice with the cam grinders sooner or later.
How was engine break in done at the factory? When they had hundreds of these engines rolling off the production line? Were they all ran at high rpm for a break in period? Great videos BTW!
I am trying to find someone who can answer that question! I really don't know, and am very curious - especially because people keep saying "we didn't have to do that way back when" and "the factory didn't do that." Thank you! Also, is that a lil old tug boat I see in your picture?!
@@DeadDodgeGarage Yeah that's why I asked, 'cos it musta been a nightmare on the production line if they had to go through the same procedure lol. Yes it is, it's a Bufflehead 22'. It was built by a retired veterinary couple in Picton Ontario Canada in the late 70's. Came into my hands about 20 years ago. Aluminum hull, with Volvo diesel. Sleeps three, built like a brick outhouse and will outlast me for sure. Great for chugging around the lakes here, although the kids say it's too slow! Hmmm, I have a fresh 383 sitting idle ............. . Again, great vids.
@@guvsgarage That's awesome! I'd never heard of the Bufflehead and looked them up. They're so cute. Haha. I have been eyeballing classic wooden tugs in Puget Sound for the last year or two... I was tempted to sell the Charger and buy one. I'm just as glad I didn't. It would be a horrible life move. But some day... The mini tug is a great idea. Heck, that's small enough to moor at the nice city dock in the next town over. Shorter than my cabin cruiser by a couple feet. As far as the break in, they've got people at the end of the line to drive the cars off. Whatever break in they may or may not have used would've been performed by them. I'm just not sure and would love to know.
Spend any time watching videos about camshaft failures on TH-cam and you might find out the times started ending years ago… I guess I’ve just been lucky? I have always looked at the parts in boxes, said “mmmhmm” and slammed them in engines. Heck, sometimes I even clean them! It had worked really well for me so far.
It actually started in the mid 80's when efi came out and the Ford mustang and gm fwd cars were experiencing cat failure because it was getting way too hot same with the Buick rwd V6 motors, and they had apparently started removing the zddp content because testing proves it is directly related to this issue and then the aftermarket camshaft manufacturers especially at this time im referring to the overseas knockoffs were using a completely different metallurgy process,, remember the Buick rwd V6 231 cutlass supreme brougham my gold 85 I mentioned I replaced the oil pump and the timing chain gear set and it blew up shortly after,2004 guess what it had received a jc Whitney no name performance camshaft and they didn't change the lifters and I used a new oil pump that was given to me,by a name I had never heard of turns out it came from a swap meet,, I have never had good luck with the Buick rwd 231 V6 I still consider them junk but I knew something was was up when a 113k mile original motor failed. After I replaced the oil pump and timing gear set cloyes.another point was the 267k miles 88 Chevy S10 regular cab short bed loaded 2wd Tahoe with the factory sunroof I said I had with the knocking 2.8 litre 60 degree V6 it still ran it shook but it was still drivable motor was wasted it lost almost all oil pressure unless you were running 45mph or higher to about 60mph then it 25psi other than that it was bad it idled fine except when cold, but with that kind of mileage I knew it was not worth trying to save a gm 2.8 173 cubic inch V6 and I was keeping the truck for a project anyway but ended up selling it to a buddy for its interior and gas tank
Jamie I remember back I n the late 70s car craft said never under 1000 rpm .drive the car keep rpm up. Don't stay the same. Keep above 2500 when you can. Then go 1000 rpm higher. Well pop was terrified when I eventually shifted into fourth at 6500 rpm. 125mph in the bee. 145 I backed off.
I'd heard of all these tips except the one about removing the windage tray, I think that's a bit excessive tbh. Also the lifters should rotate regardless of engine speed. This can be tested with the valvetrain assembled but before break-in lube is applied. One way to keep temps down during break-in is to hook up vacuum advance once the engine is running well. It's under zero load so 40-50 degrees total is by no means too much.
Roight. We tried vacuum advance with this one but it got angry. Apparently I had put way too much base in it by ear, so left it off. Did check it with a light, it sounded happy around 25 so I left it there. I was explaining to Tom as we were doing this that more timing equals less heat. A couple people had suggested the windage tray thing, and it makes good sense to me, so I tried it and included it here. It might be pointless. I don’t think the possibility of extra oil flying around can hurt during break in. But it may well be excessive.
@@DeadDodgeGarage glad to hear you understand timing vs running temps, some guys are like "don't want to give it too much for break-in" and retard the timing from ideal which is silly. I get the reasoning behind the windage tray removal and I don't think it was bad to include in your video but for me especially breaking in an engine in a car, it's more trouble than I feel like going through haha. There is pretty constant oil spray coming from between the rod bearings which in my mind is plenty. But anyway like you said, it's a complicated problem and impossible to narrow down to one cause, I could be wrong 🤷
@@mopartron3030 totally agree. We are really lucky here because having the cart now, all of our engines are broken in before going in the car, and it’s easy to swap stuff like that before the final install. I could definitely see it being too much of a PITA and not worth it. I’m wrong all the time, and I’m totally fine with that. I’m here to share info - and that absolutely goes both ways. This is all one big thought exercise for me.
@@mopartron3030 oh yeah - and I learned about timing during break in many years ago, with bright, glowing headers on a 350 in a jeep melting everything around them 😅 sometimes learning is hard - but these are the lessons that stick with us.
Hey there, sorry ya trashed one there. It really does happen to all of us, Sooner or Later. Are we gonna see the tear down? Or did I miss something? Keep 'em coming brother.
I havent pit a cam in 25 years but when i was young and dumb i put a big cam in every junker i got and never even put new oil in them just lube and go never had a problem
A lot of people are way over-thinking this. There are a bunch of factors that contribute to a successful breakin. For nearly ALL of those factors there's 'Ideal' and 'What you can get away with'. Oil, additives, RPM, runtime, technique, camlube, spring pressure and others. Fact is many, many engines over the decades made it though initial start up and beyond without eating the cam and lifters under 'less than ideal' conditions. The ONE (or TWO) things that you ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT get away with is improper taper on either the camshaft or tappets. There is NO forgiveness in this tolerance. If there is not immediate and continued rotation of the tappets it's going to DESTROY those mating surfaces VERY QUICKLY. It's THE single most critical factor. Period. Everybody reading this has done improper breakin's in the past without problems. Not using breakin oil, not running long enough, not varying the RPMs, heavy springs, even using used lifters. I've done it all myself. I would venture to say people are way more informed today about a 'proper breakin' than EVER before and yet there are more failures. It's not really 'rocket science'. I'll let you in on a secret. It's the Lifters.
Yeah. Me too. I think every break in I’ve ever done was give or take improper. Did I stutter when I described exactly the lifters as a problem? I dedicated an entire video to that. There are more factors that are worth discussing.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I ONLY use vintage NOS lifters. I haven't used any 'new' lifters since around 2000 when I didn't like the look of how they were being machined. There's still TONS of NOS lifters out there. I wouldn't get anything after the mid-late '90's. There were a lot of problems with the 3 big Mfr's around then, ie. quality and financial which seemed to go hand in hand.
You know, talking about the cooling problem, I work with stationary Diesel engines, and even though they are the same as over the road truck engines, the radiators are about 3 times the size of truck radiators. I'm 6 ft. tall and some of the fans on these are as tall as me, solid metal blade fans, no fan clutch. Even in a perfectly good working car cooling system, they were designed to go down the road to be most efficient, not sitting still. Just my thought on it. Good luck.
Indeed. I’ve spent a good bit of time explaining similar ideas to people. But what cooling problem are we talking about? An engine warming up during break in?
Not for nothing but a genset will run all day at 3600 rpm and stay cool. Not that you want to do that but get that air moving and it’s doable to stay cool on that stand.
Are we talking stationary gens, with a radiator as tall as me? Or are we talking marine, with giant channel coolers? Anyway, you’re absolutely right, and we’ve already solved that problem with a much better cooling fan. Our last break in went the full 20 in one shot.
@@DeadDodgeGarage like a 50kw job running with a big block ford. I see them tucked away in dank rooms all the time. Rads are bigger but not huge huge and they’re rated to run all day at full load. Anyhow ya beat me to the punch in saying throw an electric fan with a shroud on there pulling room air across the engine and out . Nice setup with the break in stand.
I will never run a flat tappet cam on purpose after all these failures. It may cost triple the money for roller cam and lifters but piece of mind and lots more flexible for type oil used. Plus roller cams offer better profiles!
I get it. There are a lot of pluses to the roller, there is no doubt there. In fact, I am planning to use a roller cam in an upcoming build, for reasons completely unrelated to flat tappet failures. For my regular engine builds, I’m sticking with flat tappets. I feel like the one failure I’ve had out of dozens of engines is a pretty good average, really. I’m determined to keep building these engines the way they were designed to be - and cheap.
also, stating a fact, before these last 10 years of "Bad" lifters you could break in an engine easier, without playing the "Mary-go-round" that is The flat tappet game, as of recent I do place blame on OE/Aftermarket manufacturers, Why? Well, they sell these products and grind them to spec, they claim to check these items before they leave the factory, that's WHY there are warranties, Placing the blame on yourself is giving into companies like Delphi, Morrell, Competition Cams, Lunati, Isky and more who peddle sub-standard products claiming "Ignorance" to the fact they are the ones who should be double Checking this, Powell Machine/Powell Cams in South Caroline Double and triple checked EVERY Lifter and camshaft that went through there shop, sadly, they no long sell Flat tappet cams due to bad machining. I say this stating that it is not NOT user failure, it is not Your fault, nor is it any of the thousands of others suffering this issue, it's sad to see someone say "It's my fault" when it clearly isn't or wasn't Even cam break in directions specifically state to Do what you did, no where, not today or not ever have they (Comp, Isky, Lunati, Powell, Clay smith) said to Mic-out your Lobe taper, and lifter crown when that's there job for the goods they peddle to their customer base, not the customers job. As for roller Cams, Yes, ALWAYS go Roller, no matter how much of a joke it sounds like, or how you make those who say it sound like a joke to you, stating Monetary Issues is silly especially Considering you're/They're dealing with a MoPar, arguably one of the most expensive Brand/s to buy for, why not take the extra step and precaution, what's worse, spending 6-7K USD on a build only to have it decimated and all down the toilet due to a $270-300 cam setup, or just going ahead and dropping the extra ~$1100 (1,074.99 according to Summit Racing for a full kit with springs/retainers/timing set/locators/locks) and not having to deal with a break in period, just drop them in, turn it on and go, and never have to worry, plus a small gain in power on the side thanks to Friction loss becoming Less of an issue. Just don't sell the idea of a roller cam short, they're more than A performance upgrade, they're a Direct Upgrade and a Wallet Saver in the long term.
NO. I’m saying not to automatically go roller, and I will continue to say it. I’m not selling the roller idea short. I did a video documenting exactly what it costs, and why it makes sense - but also why I will not be using rollers for almost any of my builds. I have found two great solutions to this problem - use a local mom and pop cam grinder like Oregon Cams, or buy NOS. I had multiple false starts with the engine that had the lifter failure. That’s on me. But the crappy lifter machining problem isn’t.
There is a very simple solution. Don’t spend the $300 on a Comp, or whatever other garbage. Pay a cam grinder less than that to make you what you want and reface a set of lifters. If we stop rewarding these manufacturers by paying for their junk, maybe things will change. Maybe. And we help to keep the little guys open at the same time.
Ignition wire set was accel super stock yellow 8mm and switched to the factory Chevy truck sbc ac Delco 86 k20 replacement set from eBay the distributor was the Napa crate motor replacement with the napa ignition control module and the cap was the premium msd brass heavy duty gm replacement and new ac Delco napa ignition coil in the top of the distributor cap
I would call beyond a minute of idling excessive - *especially* when the engine is still breaking in. If your car needs to continue running at a stop for a longer period, I would be inclined to occasionally blip the throttle or briefly hold it at a higher RPM intermittently. Again, with a flat tappet cam, extended periods of idling can lead to lifters not spinning and wiping out. I would just try to avoid that as much as possible. At least having it in mind could be helpful.
@@dogdoc1 it should! You need to take precautions with a fresh flat tappet engine. Someone who builds and knows them well will be explaining this to you when they are done - because they want their build to live too.
It's not just camshafts and lifters that need to be checked ,just about all parts these days have no quality, just seems that way to me me and many others
Completely agree. That’s why the note is “CHECK EVERYTHING,” not just check this one thing here. I say it again and again, in any video about engines. It might be to remind myself more than anyone else…
"Dyno" Don MacAskill from Shaver Specialties Racing Engines and Lake Speed Jr from Total Seal Piston Rings share tips and tricks on how to break-in your new or rebuilt engine. Failed camshafts, oil consumption and other problems can stem from improper break-in procedures, so watch as these two experienced experts show you how to properly break-in an engine without using an engine dyno. The video also references other resources such as choosing the proper break-in oil, so we've provided links to those videos below. th-cam.com/video/MhA_nVRhYew/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Certified Lubrication Specialist, Lake Speed Jr and Keith Jones share their knowledge and experiences with different brands of engine break-in oils. Spoiler Alert: The right break-in oil DOES make a difference, and the WRONG break-in oil can be disastrous. th-cam.com/video/Fj2NSteaPnM/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
It just seems like this issue has been on the rise as of late...far more so than it was a decade or so ago. I was thinking it was a metallurgy thing. If the grinders are getting their blanks from less than reputable companies that could explain it.
It's not metallurgy or the cam cores. There's only ONE company that makes the cores. American owned made in Michigan. Same rockwell hardness as always, mid 40's to 55. Engine Power Components (EPC) USED to have some cores on the market but the majority are Wayvern Bartel.
After seeing the lifters from this engine that disintegrated, I also had some pretty big questions about the metals being used. I’m far from an expert, but many people who have in depth knowledge of this (like Vince who responded here) have said it isn’t that.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I believe Powell Machine has done extensive testing on cam cores and lifters and his conclusion is it's not an issue. At all. (The crown however is.) Cams are actually hardened as a unit right to the 'core' so it's impossible to get a 'soft lobe'. After all the destruction it takes the evidence with it so you have to work backwards at what you know you 'did right' or what can be ruled out and then surmise what it likely was caused by. Without rotation the lifter is destroyed FAST and you have no taper left to check. There's a guy with a channel 'Metalmax Mopar' I think and he bought a whole 'tray' of NOS lifters back in the early days of ebay. Used them up over 15 or so years building engines and never 1 failure. Only change, he started using 'new' lifters and had failures. (A tray is like a bulk package of 100's of lifters from a MFR usually sent to a reboxer).
The engine speed recommended for flat tappet break-in is necessary because there is a sweet spot where actual friction is optimal. Too slow and there's too much drag. Too fast and there's too much heat and that causes weakness of the metal, which degrades to surface and it'll wipe. You're supposed to periodically vary from 2k to 2500 rpm. The biggest issue for failure is the shoddy manufacturing. Poor metal quality. We had Gen 2 hemis with their ridiculous spring pressure on flat tappets of the day and THEY didn't wipe out. They had windage trays too. Typical break-in procedure states 500 mile oil change after break-in. And psst....that Driven break-in oil is LOADED with zinc, i.e., the zddp you mentioned so no, the oil hasn't developed an A.I and detected the zinc and removed it also, you can be the greatest engine builder ever, but crap is crap, and it'll fail.
It's SUPPOSED to be non-detergent. It is not intended for extended run time. It suspends trash for removal. So, it carries the zinc, and removes the initial waste products during the break- phase. Detergent oils break down these components, extending oil change intervals. That is not the goal on initial break-in. You're welcome.
@@tvdroid22 I don't understand how you don't understand that I understand this. I said it in the video. I'm saying it now. If you're taking issue with the fact that I said "low detergent" instead of "non detergent" in my last reply, it's only because that is *what it says on the Driven Break-In Oil Bottle.* Thanks so much.
Nope. Ain't buying it. You made several excellent points about new precautions on engine break in. But that is the old game of tip toeing around, holding your mouth right in order to make a potentially inferior part work. The precipitious rise in cam failures over the past is NOT on assemblers. Tightening up(and documenting) your assembly proceedure however will be helpful the next time this happens and you're discussing it with the smartass in technical support.
It’s poor quality parts + aggressive cams + valve spring pressure + various oil problems. Notice I mentioned poor quality parts first - here, and in the video. I am completely in agreement - I have seen the videos documenting terrible lifter machining - but I think there is more to the issue, and to reduce it to just that one problem serves to cloud the possible view of a bigger picture. I already made a video yelling into the abyss about crappy quality parts. You might have even seen it. Then, after reading lots and lots of input from people with more knowledge and experience than I have, I gained a slightly better understanding of the problem. One of my strengths in this (and in life, I think) is an ability to absorb new information and adjust to it. I know this wasn’t a problem in the bad old days. America knew how to make things then. I’ve been building engines for years and hadn’t had an issue until this one, so I must have done some things right. I literally documented the build procedure of this engine on TH-cam, if they have any questions. 🙂
I could play devils advocate here….I used to work in a Chevy and a Chrysler dealership back when all cars still ran flat tappet cams….how come there was no cam break in process on a new engine from the OEM?…no break in oil either….a lot of people that bought new cars hardly ever ran them over 2000 rpm, yet the engines still lived…been doing a fair amount of research on this myself….first thing I’ve found out is, it’s more about oil film strength than amount of zinc ( you can actually over zinc an engine)…according to Mobil Oil, if you have at least 800ppm zinc/phosphorus flat tappets will live…been there, done that for 20+years now…..most people don’t know that zinc actually breaks down during use….have known (and used to teach) about cam lobe taper & lifter crown…not hard to check with a dial caliper and a dial indicator….also found out that the main company that’s having issues (initials are C C ) had a proprietary in house machine that made lifters…only to burn up in a fire, which left them scrambling to outsource lifters…found to be not a good source…..look for Johnson Lifters…
Well, one thing is for certain - modern oil is worse. Are you sure there was no break in process on new engines in that time? Are you sure there was zero engine break in before the cars left the factory? I really want to know, because people yammer on and on about how “we didn’t used to have to do that.” I want to know what Chrysler did in the 60s. It’s not something anyone has been able to tell me - yet.
@@DeadDodgeGarage as far as at the dealership level there was no break in....I did new car prep, and cars just came off the transporter with zero miles....I went through a checklist and put it out on the lot....and you can bet none of the OEMs would have people sit in each and every car (thousands every day) and go through a break in procedure.....I beg to differ on the quality of today’s oil....synthetic is definitely better, been doing once a year oil changes for myself and my customers for 22 years now, including fresh engine builds...haven’t lost one yet
@@Mr9501 synthetic is great - for modern engines that are designed for it. Things stay cleaner and it lasts much, much longer. Our flat tappet dinosaur engines beg to differ on that point… there had to be some process when they were first fired up and driven off the line. I would like to know what it was. If they hit the key and drove it straight onto a transporter, or if they did a heat cycle, or a period of higher RPM - whatever it was, I would really like to know that to be fact.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I’ll try to do some digging...living in the rust belt, a lot of the OEM’s had factories around here....I’m sure I can locate a few former assembly line workers and see what they remember...
There is no reason why cams should be wiping out other then that machinist made an error and missed something and it slipped through qc and was a one off thing. How can your entire business revolve around parts that dont work that have worked for much longer then i have been alive.
"high energy" - thats a marketing name, and nearly meaningless in the grand scheme of things. It does not indicate ramp intensity, although I happen to know they are faster than the magnum line coming off the seat.. For 0.006" to 0.050" lift, the card lets us do the math. Please note muscle car era cams were 30 degrees or more, for longevity. The flank??? Send that off for Cam Doctor inspection - it can chart lift degree by degree if you like. I am a fan of parkerizing: hardness goes just a little deeper than other processes from what I've read, and as a bonus... it seems to give oil something to hang on to just a little better. As for "break in"... if grind geometry and surface finsh [cam & lifter] is good, why are we putting in an oil designed to increase wear through reduced protection? It may just be that people taking springs out [or changing to weaker ones] are trying to escape their break-in oil? So a little end note on bad ideas: how they sometimes get started. Remember all those old car magazines? Well... theres a problem even god guys can't escape: meeting deadline is the golden goose - without content, advertisements go nowhere. For that reason, getting things right can only rise to number 2 on a priority list. Publish or perish. Anyone know where "break-in" mantras started? I... don't know. But math suggests that back in the day, assembled flat tappet engines got about 5 minutes worth of run-in time, then went out for final assembly or remediation. But just maybe a break-in procedure is needed, and the "more is better" crowd is breaking engines by stretching 5 minutes into 20 or 30? Detroit has moved on regarding design, so it would be the retired that can answer some of the unknowns. I'd love to hear from engine assemby guys that actually did the work in the 60's or '70s.
I’m hoping to hear about the actual factory procedures for engine break in some day. Stupid idiots on the internet have tried to tell me there couldn’t possibly have been any factory break in procedure - an argument that makes zero sense. But I have no data to go on. High energy is a proprietary name, but belonging to the largest cam manufacturer has helped it become the defacto name for a lobe matching its profile. If you think that’s meaningless, ok. I am confused by your description of break in oil. And at this point I think I’m done typing.
@@DeadDodgeGarage From what little I can gather, typical oil these days loses protection somewhere in the 80,000 to 90,000 psi ranges. Some are way better, some worse. Break in oils quit somewhere in the low to mid 50,000 range - thats why I say increased wear through decreased protection. One of the ongoing tasks I dig at is trying to find non-automotive uses that engage similar treatment. I'm still looking... and assuming this is a valid means of preparing machined surfaces for use, surely this happens somewhere outside car engines? Maybe bedding new cross slides on a steam locomotive? So for the time being, I am resigned to only one thing needing initial increased wear: rings. They have to seat on startup, and lapping compound cannot be used in a mock up - it would probably get into ring lands and cause unwanted taper [plus... can't fire up a motor with that anywhere in the first place]. So knowing that lobe taper vs lifter crown presents a small proximal tangent area with peak load, I ran some hypothetical numbers. Spring load over the nose: 300 pounds and rockers are 1.5. That becomes 450 pounds force through lifter directed at the cam. Area? Estimate 0.008 square inches of peak load area on the lifter [roughly 0.090"x0.090"] - that becomes 56,250psi the oil has to be better than... and acceleration forces are yet to be added. Meanwhile, I likely dress bores with break in oil, put vr1, redline or some such in the sump and fire it up - change the oil somewhere between 50 and 100 miles to see if anything is going south. I'm paused on a current build for cash reasons, but also... up to my eyeballs with bizarre electrical issues. 12v neg post to chassis WITH cables all attached where it worked [for years] before? The twilight zone has landed under my hood.
Maybe some entrepreneurial person could build a break in machine were you insert the cam and lifters and spin it until the lifters are mated . Then after break in you can put them in the actual engine
Well for those of us that like old school stop or try to bring stuff back to stock flat tappet have served perfectly well for years and I've had some pretty radical cams with flat tappet in the engines ran perfectly fine matter fact the 360 that I'm running today has 450000 miles on it still runs absolutely perfect on flat tappet
I started using the 10-10-10 break-in method even when "aggressive" spring pressures aren't a factor. Mostly becasue it gives two intentional cool down periods to tweak/troubleshoot things if needed. th-cam.com/video/b2LzSz9W1Sk/w-d-xo.html
Nice. I actually just read something else saying the same this morning. I really like it. Little issues always come up, so it’s great to have the time to deal with them. Snug valve covers… check fluids… double check other fasteners. Etc.
Isky Rev lube is the best, contains molybdenum disulfide. Lifters MUST rotate!!! I've broken in a comp cams XE grind with the springs supplied for running, not a light break in spring. Was fine. And non detergent oil with a zddp additive Never had a failure with this combo 1) Isky rev lube 2) proper taper on cam and a lifter crown to insure rotation 3) non detergent oil with zddp added
I'm old but I like watching old cars live new lives. Grew up in a Chevy Family and we had two new Chevy's in 1969, a Malibu for mom and a base camaro for my dad to commute in. The tenant in the apartment bought a brand new 1968 Charger in green with a vinyl roof. He got the 318 but upgraded the suspension and tires with every available option and got the redline polyglas tires. It was my introduction to Chrysler performance and I have liked them since. Your Charger is really nice BTW. @@DeadDodgeGarage
I put together my 440 in 1989 and installed Melling high volume oil pump. Moroso 7 qt. oil pan. Put these in a stock 76 440. Dropped it in my 70 GTX. The engine was stock except for the 484 purple shaft cam. And the other parts mentioned. Also hooker headers. Ran the car until 93 and it stayed parked. Pulled it out early this year and rebuilt a stock 70 block .30 over. Steel crank and 10.5 to 1 pistons. 906 aluminum knock off heads. All the stuff from the 76 440 placed into the 70. I was worried about the cams and lifter parts failing so I went with these tried and true. So far, no problems. Fires right up and idles great and rev out smooth. 6 barrel induction set up. I know for a fact that in 89 I did not break the cam in. Prior to 89 I never broke a cam in. And I built 6 engines easily. Never broke a cam in. And all were flat tapper hydraulic lifters. All these engines run today. So I am leaning towards modern part’s failure. We need better QA for the amount of damage and cost this can cause. Thanks DDG for a very informative video.
Absolutely a factor. Just saying - there are others too. Lots of things to think about.
Modern part failures. That's the main issue I have.
Junk right out of the box.
I just liked the show. I am a retired professional engineer who experienced more than one failure in a long career. As you said the failure is the responsibility of the man in charge, possibly relying on faulty data, info or other judgement items. I applaud you.
Discovered your channel last week or so. Have binged lots of your videos and learned a lot. As a 19yo swedish guy who only i the recent year or so decided mopars are superior despite my upbringing around only chevys and ford based hotrods (thanks to dad being buddies with the guy who basically pioneered hotrods and that stuff in sweden). Hopefully i can use the knowledge i get here and from UTG when i can get my hands on an old mopar! keep making these videos, they are gems!
Great long distance testamonial.
More mopar folks here in sweden!
@@patrikramberg3787 mopar or no car!
@@patrikramberg3787 ah crap Patrik, I think I skipped over your “hi from Sweden” comment last night toward the end of the stream. Hi!
Here are some things to add to your already good suggestions for successfully installing/breaking in ft cams & lifters.
As for better Cooling during 2k-2,500 rpm for 20-25mins,it can easily be kept in check by placing a 20” box fan on high speed on a box directly in front of the grill/radiator core to ensure its blowing cool air thru the rad core at all times.
Mix coolant at 50/50 or 65-70% water/35-40 % coolant for best heat transfer.
Also,fill cooling system thru intake to till it almost overflows before installing t-stat with rad cap off to help air escape & watch coolant lvl un radiator as your filling it.
This allows you to rid cooling system of most all air prior to startup for smoother warmup without 1st overheating motor to get stat open with little yo no coolest hitting it yet.
Also drill a small bypass hole in the stat to help remove air from system too.
If cooling system uses a clutch fan setup consider switching from std to hvy dty fan clutch for better cooling or at very least ensure current fan clutch & water pump are in good working cond for hood cooling,same gos for the radiator too,30-30yrs old fan clutches & radiators can at times not be up to job if properly cooling our stock or modified muscle car motors.
Also ensure all air is pulled thru radiator by cooling fan by installing adhesive backed blk color foam insulation used in ac apps in all air gaps inbetween the radiator core & fan shroud.
Doing that ensures all air pulled thru rad core by fan gos thru the rad core & not air gap between rad core & shroud ensuring max cooling at low speeds & it idling at stop lights.
In summer heat I also increase idle speed a bit to increase cooling sitting in traffic fir more airflow & cooling thru rad core.
Also ensure proper spacing of cooling fan within the fan shroud & between fan blades & rad core too fir proper/max cooling too.
Ensure your running proper zddp fortified breakin oil for ft cam & lifter breakin.
A great assembly lube that stays put is cranes grey looking sticky Molly paste & cranes oil additive for breakin is great too.
As for the red assembly lube you mentioned, your 100% correct that it literally drips/runs off the cam lobes in less then 24hrs post application which is a problem esp if motor isn’t going to be fired up for wks or months later.
I have seen it 1st hand and there isn’t enough lube left on cam lobes for safe fire up days or wks post application of that red assembly lube.
I personally called the cam mfg tech/engineering staff to speak to them on this and telling them my concerns & alk they said was well when we do cam swaps & testing on our dyno mile motors we don’t see a problem.
I again told them the issue is a few days or wks later that thin lube runs off the cam lobes which is an issue resulting in an almost dry start & they again said they don’t see an issue.
I realized the person I was talking too didn’t get it or refused to admit there’s an issue so I let it go that day.
I called the tech line again to hopefully speak to a different tech/engineer which did happen but I got the same basic response,can’t fix stupid.
I use gm 7 blade 772 ac cooling fan with hvy dty fan clutch,hi flow pump & high flow 160 deg stat too.
Before I install the intake I also adjust thevalve train (where applicable) so I can then reapply the assembly lube that’s wiped off csm lobes when spinning motor over when doing valve adj to ensure better protection on 1st fire up.
Ensure your running enough base timing with a min of (14-16deg) when running an aftermarket non stock cam with more duration because retarded base timing causes motor to run much hotter.
Run approx 34-38deg total timing all in by approx 2500-2,600 rpm max.
Ensure your running enough octane in fuel with an aggressive street perf timing curve & back off/reduce timing if detonation is heard or seen on spark plugs (small metal shinny looking metallic spots on plug porcelain).
Ensure you have firing order correct,carb filled with fuel,oil system primed & battery fully charged for quick fire up with minimal cranking time.
Best the change oil & filter right after 20-25min breakin time is done refilling with proper zddp fortified oil when running flat tappet setups.
Change that oil & filter at 500 miles & return to 3k oil & filter changes after that when using conventional & or syn blend oil with proper elevated zddp lvl for ft cam & lifter setups.
Iv’e been doing the above for all the stock & aftermarket high perf ft cam / lifter installs & break-ins iv’e done in the past 50+ yrs with 100% success so far.
Gm’s old Gen EOS/engine oil supplement was a good oil additive for ft can/lifter breakin too.
Heat/temp wise My 69 chevelle ss396 4spd with mild modded motor (approx 375-380hp/430-440lbs trq) in 85-90deg summer heat runs 178-180 deg f max at cruise & in traffic at stoplights too using above rec to reduce heat.
I run a stock Hd copper brass Harrison 4 row radiator with temp sending unit in stock location in driver side head by exhaust port in head that typically runs 15-30deg hotter then if temp sender is in the intake being far away from exhaust heat driving higher temp gauge reading by 15-30 deg in summer heat.
Happy motoring!
Scott
Way to go, Scott! I feel like taking mine all apart just to rebuild it, after reading your comments.👍🙂. (I may comment, later, to ask u ?s.)
@@stuckinmygarage6220
Np asking a few more questions,I will ans them if I can.
Summer and when you know that you are going to be sitting in traffic awhile I learned that truck with the Oldsmobile v8 powered Buick Regal and Delta 88 and Oldsmobile V8 power 98 cars I had and copied it to the Chevy truck 355 and the truck got a newer aluminum radiator.
My induction and fan setup at the time of break in failure both ended up getting changed except the intake manifold and are as follows the fan was a 16 inch I believe 6 blade chrome and blue aluminum flex lite straight fan and 2 inch spacer and bolts from auto zone parts store, and the intake manifold was a Holley street dominator aluminum intake manifold and the carb used in the break in was a Edelbrock performer 1407 750cfm manual choke I referred to as the drag carb, and it ended up going right back to the factory 7 blade 86 chevy k20 sbc ac clutch fan and shroud and then my brother drove it through the woods and the shroud got busted all to pieces but that is another story... and the carb was the Napa crate motor replacement m4mc non computer feedback 795cfm quadrajet electric choke carburetor I took off the truck because even though the Edelbrock had decent throttle response it sucked gas like going out of style and the qjet properly tuned and rebuilt again was just a better carb
A race builder on here sprayed dry graphite on cam then assembly grease used . I've done so now .
Like you said, "if ya ain't learning...."
We all have those days we're, what should work, or has always worked in the past, just...doesn't.
Expensive yes, but lessons aren't cheap!
And yeah in my experience they are never cheap and that's not even counting fixing them just to acquire it back where it came from as in the vehicle back home because I have only had two break at home.
. and acquiring the repair parts and gaskets and materials..
Thanks Jamie you do a great job. You talk and work on these MOPARS the same as us guys at home again thanks I learn something every time I watch.
Lifter bore issues can cause the lifter not to spin I always run a burnishing ball through each bore surprising how tolerances change from motor to motor also oil through solid lifters a big help.Love the channel keep ‘em coming!
That was done here. I discussed lifters dropping in and spinning freely in previous installments. I definitely could have mentioned that in this video as well. Whoops.
Thanks for the info, I was doing alot of those things wrong - I do use the same spark plugs that you do though
Very good info,keep it coming. Unfortunately this is how we learn. Break it,fix it and figure out why.
True That! Ask NASA or EM
@@claztubeDang! 😉😉
Appreciate your honesty and candor, as well as avoiding the typical YT references to these processes as analogous in complexity to mapping the human genome.
There is a lot to it - but not *that* much. Haha.
Thank you for the good information! Those who have never failed have never attempted anything.
Great video man. The cam break in was the #1 reason I was so hesitant and a bit frightened of firing the "not a Dodge" up for the first time. I agree that a good percentage of cam failures are installer error, but with most of the horror stories these days about "Stomp" there has to be something going on there.
Only use NOS lifters
Good video on the possible failure points. It all makes sense.
I have always heard and done the 2000 for 20 and it’s worked for me.
Love the videos
Around year 2000 new rebuilt 451 mopar .488 lift Comp cam and lifters, heavier Crane valve springs no windage tray, regular 30 wt oil no zinc additives 20 minutes at 2000 rpm break in and no problems. Replaced heads this year cam and lifters were perfect. Never heard of break in oil at the time.
I’ve had only the best luck too - before this. I’ve used windage trays, the wrong springs, aggressive cams, used cams and lifters… there are a lot of reasons why that doesn’t always work anymore - hence the video.
You are absolutely correct! I have 69 roadrunner with 440-6. I have mechanical cam,with roller rockers comp cam split lift and duration. 1967 only 915 heads. I broke my cam in over 20 years ago. Motor still screams! I broke my cam in at 2000 for 20 minutes with no problems, then I installed the inner second valve spring after cam break in
The windage tray keeps the crankshaft from whipping the oil in the pan into a froth. It has no effect on the oil slinging out of the rod bearings (which is what gets on the cam). Another issue I have had with Mopar and non-Mopar engines is the oiling notch on the rod bearing shells. Most new bearings don't have this notch, but it's been a while since I've done an big block. New small block bearings generally don't. There's reasons for this, but on a street engine, it's better to have more oil spraying around than less. Since you're not using some ridiculous valve spring pressures, I would guess it was a crap lifter with insufficient crown, or it was tight in it's bore and wouldn't rotate.
I think you're right in a crap lifter being the culprit. I already made a video explaining that - but there is more to this issue than just a part failure. I have learned a lot since that failure, and I wanted to wrap it all up in one more video - which many people seem to appreciate. I really wish I had covered lifter bore fit in this video, because they absolutely moved freely. I covered this in other videos, but it would've been good to have it here in the wrap up so people would stop saying that.
As far as the windage tray's job, there seems to be an incomplete understanding of what it does. It exists to interrupt the windage around the crankshaft generated by its rotation, and keep as much oil as is practical from getting caught up in that windage. That includes oil dripping down from the valley and coming from the bearings, as well as any oil that could potentially be splashing up from the sump. Yes, it acts as a barrier between splashing pan oil and the crankshaft, but there are other parts in even factory performance type oil pans that are specifically meant to control the sump oil. The amount of oil that the tray removes from around the crankshaft might be a totally moot point. But it was something several people brought up, and it made good sense to me, so for now I am going to stick with it, and I included it here. Anything that could help get oil on the camshaft during break in is a good thing in my eyes.
The oiling holes in the rod bearings are indeed absent from just about all replacement bearings these days. As I understand, their intended purpose was piston skirt cooling. Something similar is done in turbo diesel engines with oil nozzles directed at the piston skirts. The OEs decided they were essentially superfluous in this type of engine decades ago. I have seen others try to explain them as being for camshaft lubrication, but I think they only aid in that insofar as they throw extra oil out to be caught up by the crankshaft. I agree that extra oil being thrown around is better than less in these applications, for the reasons I discussed in the video. If the factory wanted to direct oil at the camshaft directly, they could have done that through other means.
Something has definitely changed, I’m in my late 40’s and put at least 15 flat tappet cams over the years. Never had any issues until the last 10 years. I never knew there were so many expert engine builders until I commented on Lubetube. Can’t imagine the comments you received but probably half are from people that have never turned an oil filter.
It has become more prevalent, but just today a commenter explained how this happened to him in the year 2000. Another explained how race builders have been using break-in springs for decades because this has always been a risk. We have shittier parts, shittier oils, and more aggressive cams and springs. It’s not a hard equation to figure out. There are a lot of people who know in the comments. There are also people who don’t. My method in life is to take information from all available sources, evaluate and compare, and find the happy middle ground that makes sense to me. Hence, this video.
Good vlog. 6 years ago, same issue, same cam lifter package. Everything you mentioned was mostly correct except the windage tray. my stock 2bll 383 was original, didn't have one. one mentioned keeps oil from foaming. was going to make a vlog but didn't. you touched on but need to go more in depth which pertains to high mileage worn blocks we're all building. i knew and skipped this step (assembling in carport during rainy winter season yuk) ... the first time of insuring not only lifters drop in and hand spin freely with no load but under load. deep inside the lifter bore is the oil galley, over time the edge gets worn razor sharp. New lifters have an oil groove cut into them, very sharp edges. under load these two sharp surfaces interact which caused one lifter from spinning. i failed to mark each lifter, turn engine over before installing intake to ensure each lifter is spinning(with valve train installed). second go around with different manufacture you mentioned that voodoo spirit, 4 lifters would not spin. lightly filing oil galley edge and 4oo grit wet sand paper lightly scuffing lifter oil groove edges on all lifters. after re-install rotation from all lifters. second break-in perfect, stilling running to this day. check my vlog for voodoo bump note. believe i have piston slap as brand new carb (hooley, love'em though) on first break-in started flooding, pin hole in float.. what else could go wrong you ask? had mechanic from that max car company help to complete in a weekend. unfortunately not securing all plug wires probably contributed to piston slap condition as it ran rich on one cylinder wiped all oil from walls. it'll still turn 6k though, i've eased up on those runs :- ) as the slap has grown louder. only time i had help, only time i experienced failures... just saying. thanks for sharing!
All very good tips, wish you had mentioned massaging the breaking lube into the lobe pores. Ive failed to do that in a bbc and wiped out lobes. Were all here learning. Thanks for your honesty❤
Pores? I just wipe it on the faces. I wouldn’t say I do any massaging. Lol.
@@DeadDodgeGarage microscopic pores of the metal you know how metal sweats when you heat it with a torch.
Great video. Clear concise and packed full of great information. Learned a lot!
Have set of very small ratio rockers for break in on bbc. So far I’ve never had an issue. I’ve also done some old school lifter bore scaring to drip more oil on the cam.
I've had a thought about using a spare valley cover and drilling a hole through it such that I can run a tube through it that is connected to oil pressure. Have 16 tiny holes drilled in this tube that will be over each lobe and have the open end pinched off. This would be only for break in and once it is done it would all be removed. This would make for sure plenty of oil gets to the cam and lifters during break in. I have not done this so I can't speak to if it would help but I don't think it would hurt.
It’s an interesting thought. What I will say is this - no amount of oil can overcome shoddy machine work on the faces of the lifters or the lobes.
In Europe we use Adamol 15W40 engine oil that US Made in Austria Vienna by Adamol and has 1135PPM ZDDP inside and its more affordable compared to Boutique high end classic oils
Nice!
yes I know this Adamol EAN 9001617167392 is a good oil very inexpensive made in Österreich to HQ EU standards and affrdable priced.
I have always done the way you have, but its been awhile since I have built one. I have a couple engines coming up so this is a nice refresher, plus I been curious about all these cam issues too. When this first started happening everyone was blaming manufacturers but I was like wait it makes more sense this is a installer problem. I think your assessment is probably the most spot on, blame can be a little bit of everything. You know 20 years ago we got away with breaking in how we did, but manufacturing changed in that time, metallurgy changed, oils changed, but we didn't change. Man I don't recall the reasoning for taking break-in to 3k because its been to long but at the time it seemed most logical. I was taught to max it out at 3k but only be there for like a minute or 2, the biggest amount of time is spent in the 2k range.
Oh sure. I rev it up to that neighborhood for brief periods, but mostly keep it in the 2000 range. It definitely doesn’t need to park at 3000 the whole time. Yeah… things have changed. I completely agree that parts have gotten worse. There’s a reason I gave that issue top billing in this video. I just know that things are more complex than that, and want to get people thinking about every aspect of the problem.
@@DeadDodgeGarage If your still taking suggestions for video topics, I have a spicy topic for you that I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on. How about a video on the fusible link? As someone who has a lot of experience with different kinds of electrical, I lean more towards the camp that says replace it with an appropriate sized fuse. At the same time I do appreciate the argument that the engineers designed it that way for a reason.
@@Mopardude I didn't know people were replacing them with fuses. Haha. I don't know if I'm qualified for this. My inclination is usually to keep things as stock as possible - ain't broke, don't fix, etc. The fusible link has done right by me to this point. I've only cooked a couple of them over the years by being stupid - and that seems pretty good!
with all the flat tappet cam BS in recent years i would not even consider using one unless it was NOS. just go to a roller setup then there is no worries about taper/crown, break in or zinc oils
I have a video explaining why that is not an option for everyone, and why I refuse to accept a roller conversion as the only way to do this.
Last build a 273 with a mild "RV" cam. Used the black grease that came with the cam kit, only lube in the lifter bores was a shot of WD-40, filled it with 5W-30 Quaker State full synthetic, no prelube turning the oil pump. Fired it up and drove it, kept the revs up the first 20-30 minutes. Over 6k on it now, no issues.
I’m glad that worked out for you. No reputable engine builders recommend starting a new engine on synthetic oil, and prelubing the engine is a really good idea. I’ll defer to the experts on that.
The left side of your brain might be saying... "Where is the normal clever and humorous reply by Bad Ash?" Well, hold on tight to your worn out Tuff wheel! After watching this fine video, I don't think that Uncle Tony is screaming at you now! This is the best video on cam failure that I have ever seen! Awesome job Jamie! One thing I'd like to tell you incase you did know. There is a company that makes Johnson Hy-lift lifters right here in America that are premium quality and premium priced. I buy them from Huges Engines. Another thing that I do is put a mark on all the lifters before I install the intake manifold, and turn the engine over to make sure all the lifters are turning. As far as what's going on inside the wrong side of your brain, I have no clue, but am guessing that it has something to do with corn dogs! Love always, Bad Ash
Thanks Steve. I definitely expected something with more sarcasm here 😅 I learned about Johnson as well during this whole fiasco - but I have seen others say that what is sold as Johnson now, much like other brands, is nothing like the old Johnson lifters. So I don’t know where that leaves us.
Something something, corn dogs
@@DeadDodgeGarage Hah! I don't know either. My brain left the building many years ago!
@@DeadDodgeGarage Repeat after me... Corn dogs fix everything.
Thanks, another excellent video. When I get to the breakin on my small block, I'll follow the directions provided by Hughes Engines, since I'm using one of their cams. They call for varying the RPM between 1500 and 3000RPM for the first 30 minutes, but they break it up in 10 minute intervals with 10 minute cooldowns between (elsewhere it says 1500 - 2500RPM so I'll call them to get the reals). Then 20 hour engine runtime before its truly broken in. My kit is all as spec'd by Hughes so should be GTG with US made Johnson lifters, but like the computer security guru says, and you imply, "Trust no one" so it'll all get checked. They recommend break in oil so doing that too, though I'm hoping I can move to the Castrol GTX Classic (high zinc oil) or other more available oil afterwards.
Oh yeah. You should be fine with any of those higher zinc, “racing” type oils after break in. I definitely don’t trust any of them to just be good anymore, but some have said that Hughes is. We have done a couple of their rollers. I’ve never gotten my hands on one of their flat tappets just yet.
Great video! I agree with everything except the windage tray. The oil that splashes onto the cam actually comes from the rod bearings leaking and slinging oil onto the cam, in fact some rods have spit holes at the rod bolts.
My understanding was the squirters were for bore / piston skirt cooling for the opposite bank. But I’m not an expert. All of this era of Chrysler engines had those, but almost no aftermarket rod bearings have the provision for them now. Apparently at some point they were deemed extra. Lots of people have taken issue with the windage tray thing. It’s something a couple commenters mentioned and it made sense to me. Maybe it’s bullshit.
Great point about break in springs.
Yep - you live and learn...and then you apply your new knowledge in the next go. And if there's more to learn, you pick that up too.... That's life, mate.....the best it can be!
I haven't read thru all current 245 replies, but using portable box fans to also blow at the radiator has always prevented overheating on my break-ins, though done in the car. Would have to blow at the radiator on your cart though it may look smallish, can't tell.
My usual machine shop always asks if I want the inner springs left out for break in and I have started saying yes.. They also suggest the Isky Rev Lube moly paste for cam and lifter faces, but not lifter bores. I keep it on hand. They've said that with all this plus break in oil and even extra ZDDP that some people also use, that once in a while one doesn't survive, but it's the best foot you can put forward.
We do that. But once we installed a cooling fan on the radiator that actually works, problem solved. Yes - exactly. You nailed it.
Spark plugs were ac r45ts equivalent but a platinum plug that also changed back to the factory r45ts which is a copper core taper seat washer plug.
I meant that we used "used " parts. Sometimes lifters werent matched to the cam lobe they were accustomed to be running on.
Right. Gathered that. I’ve kept them all matched… and I’ve booboo’d a couple in my time… eh!
Thank you for sharing,
I can’t tell you how helpful and educational this video was for me.
I really enjoy the content.
A thought…..
Could you cut a small groove in the lifter bores from the middle down to allow oil to drain onto cam lobe?? (A very small groove so as to not did oil pressure)
Maybe he’s a triangular file and cut a .020” groove
Just a thought
I’m not sure there is an effective way to do that. But there may well be. Thanks! Happy to help.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Agreed...It was a thought, I do have them from time-to-time between brain farts. The quality control issues are alarming...20 years ago we weren't using break in oils and zinc additives blah blah blah....slap a cam in it, lube it up with motor oil and fire it up!! You really brought up some very valid points about the splash oiling, windage trays and modern detergent oils. I'm wondering if the cam manufactures have some responsibility to provide some more specific directions related to your points?? OR...maybe try to update some manufacturing techniques to help circumvent the new challenges?? OR maybe they hate us and want us to just die and buy electric vehicles, planned obsolescence. Thanks again!!!
Back in 2000 I had my first cam Fail and eat a couple lobes when I built my current 440 Using the purple shaft 484 /284 Mopar performance Cam , and hydraulic lifer set , also new valve springs with dampener set rated for this cam lift and heavy duty stamped rockers , I did not check, cam surface slopes or the spring pressures open and closed . I used the provided Mopar cam lubricant which was more like honey with moly additives , oversized 2.14 & 1.81 stainless steel Mildon race valves , hardened exhaust seats, and I ported the 906 heads... I wanted Bronze Guides, however the machinist convinced me they were not necessary probably based on my limited budget, big mistake! the knurled guides were to loose and sloppy , thus oil consumption and some noise became a problem .. I installed another new purple shaft 484 cam and lifer set a 108 degree centerline , and used much better sticky thick ' Moly Lube Paste instead of the honey like oil based mopar lube , on the cam lobes and lifer faces, all lifers were pre primed with oil.. I made sure to use my old trusty Holly 780 carburetor , primed ready to run, and a good distributor, pre primed the Engine high volume oil pump just before start up . started up with out to much cranking time. and ran for 20 minutes at around 2200 + RPMS , used a basic 30 weight NON Detergent motor oil. just for the break in run only , I may have added a quart or two of oil with high zink and then ended up running a high zink 20-50 race oil due to the loose valve guides and high oil consumption. MY next engine build will be built with more precision to avoid these issues ...
I need more stories like this, explaining that this was happening twenty years ago. People think this is a new problem and that the sky is suddenly falling, and that it’s all Comp’s fault. It’s not.
And my Chevy 355 had a built in windage tray because the oil pan from the factory equipment truck was modified, and the spec if I remember correctly was 2500rpm for 20 minutes??
When I tear down old engines I have not seen cam & lifter damage- mostly just normal wear.
I have ran a lifter valley trays on my sb mopars for decades. First I noticed oil stayed cleaner longer from not getting roasted on the exhaust crossover, and the film strength of the oil (booger test) was also better for more miles, and the oil getting on the cam from the tray probably helped somewhat.
Smokey Yunick used to write tech articles for Circle Track magazine- because of the rules on lifters in NASCAR, lower seat pressure 'break-in' springs were used on fresh engines- my first knowledge was mid.'80's but the practice probably far pre-dated that, replaced near race day by extreme springs to turn the rpms needed on racing day.
I only have a few non-hydraulic roller lifter blocks left, a few nib 0.500-ish '90's cams (big lift low duration) looking to use either Howards lifters with the hole edm'd dead center of lifter face or Crowers with the flat spot top-to-bottom on the side for cam face oiling to hopefully survive.
I too have spent a bunch of time down the cam/lifter failure rabbit-hole.
Several reputable engine builders have Rockwell Hardness checked the cams- seem to be within spec., they checked lobes for proper taper- seemed correct.
I have checked my cams and their supplied lifters- seem fine.
14K Subs-Wow!!
Oops wanted to delete that first paragraph
Good video, just installed new cam kit valve train. Everything good, but my felpro intake gasket sweat a tiny bead of coolnt. Like a sponge, ever had this,?seems like only in hot humid weather it will do it when the car sit over night in garage, used thread sealant and some red rtv around water ports
I’m assuming this is small block as there is no coolant through the big block intake. I’ve had similar problems with a bad intake fit and the cork end seals in place. They tend to hold the intake up away from the gaskets to varying degrees. I generally leave those end seals out and use a bead of silicone there. I once was convinced to use them in a 340, and it was so bad, there was coolant flowing into the oil.
I see a heat insulator between the valley pan and intake,seen them in the wild but seems they are always left out on rebuild,nice Jamie.
Oh yeah! This engine isn’t a performance build, it is a factory type restoration. We put great effort into getting the little details like that right. Unfortunately this one had to come back apart after paint, so it will require some touch up. Just for the record, the factory calls that something like a tappet noise insulation pad. It can’t do much to keep heat away from the intake when there is exhaust flowing through the heat crossover in the intake right above it. Thanks!
Congrats on the 14k mark! And that’s all I have to say about that.
I'm glad for Jamie's audience growth too, well deserved.
Very good, but I cant understand how the wind age tray being installed is a problem, the tray is below crank, so it only hinders oil already in the pan from wrapping around crank at very high rpms... it doesnt interfere with the natural oil spray from crank bearing bleed. Can you explain more on this?
It’s something I hadn’t thought of, but a couple commenters mentioned it, and it makes good sense to me. Yes, the windage tray sits *below* the crank, and it separates the sump oil from the crank, but its job is to disrupt any oil that is being thrown around by the crank - be that oil raining from the lifter bores, running out of bearing surfaces, what have you. That oil landing on or near the crank is caught up in its windage - the air flow generated by its rotation - and if you imagine what that does, it’s going to get caught in the rotation of the crank before it can be thrown outward. The windage tray is trying to disrupt that airflow and redirect the oil to the sump. Anything that reduces the amount of oil that is splashing around during camshaft break in seems bad. Maybe it’s not important. Maybe it’s something to consider. Hopefully the theory at least makes sense.
Would have loved to have seen and heard the rebuilt rebuild engine running.
I got footage of it running that will be used for a wrap up video on the 1970 Dodge Monaco wagon it belongs to. We have since reinstalled it in the car.
Im loving the Chanel. I’ve learned a lot from you. Im curious if you have ever used Racer Brown cams. I have one in my 440. Jim is the machienest and he answers the phone when you call. Give him a call when you build your next engine and see what you think.
Great vid Jamie, you covered just about all of the points to check
Comp cams are mostly very good, but obviously today they are letting some stuff get through that's not machined right. Back in the day, no one was super fussy and the cams survived fine with just some break-in lube and running it at 2,000 rpm (varying) for about 20-30 minutes. People just used the high-zinc oil that was sold everywhere, like Castrol GTX 20-50. It may be best to just get a Lunati cam ($$$) versus taking another brand to a machinist and having them check it. Lunati is good. Comp is really good ,"Mostly". Some stuff from Comp is slipping through. their quality control (or lack of it). Lunati might be your best bet.. Everything you said is absolutely correct, But I'm pointing that one one was taking out the windage tray and putting in lighter valve springs for the break-in, Back in the 'early '70's, practically everyone was swapping in performance cams and they were all flat tappet cams. I very , very rarely heard of a roller cam back then. One advantage of being 68 years old. is that I remember how it was. Btw, I used to adjust the dwell and timing (with the light) by cranking the engine with the spark plugs out (in certain situation), Cranking dwell and timing. If the car won't start, I'd pull all the plugs, then swap the points and condenser and get them dialed in perfect before I actually started. I still think points ignitions are superior to electronic. The stupid "mechanics" back in the day almost never set them perfect, , often didn't use points lube. or clean any the wire connectors, check the mechanical and vacuum advance , points cam in the distributor for wear, check to if the new points had a burr on the rubbing block.,, etc, etc. So me, the "amateur" got jobs fixing stuff the "pros" screwed up.
Lunati and Crane are pretty much a memory. Both have been 'absorbed' by the Comp group or Edelbrock. EVERYTHING Lunati has is on backorder indefinitely. MOST of what comp provides is custom CNC ground stuff on their Landis machines. All their catalog offerings are mostly 'white box' stuff ground off site on huge gang grinders by Camshaft Machine Co. in Jackson Mich. I was going to buy a Lunati at Summit, had it saved in my 'wishlist' now it says 'No longer available'. NO Lunati at Summit or Jegs. They are history.
Problem is age. These engines are 50-60 years old. Rebuilt multiple times by now. Who ever checks lifter bores? I've seen some engines .060+ overbore and cranks .040 under on journals.
The other issue is loss of manufacturing knowledge or skill of previous generations. Last flat tappet engine produced by the OE was late 80's. Machinists that knew how to operate those lifter facing machines are long gone. I don't think any company is going to invest millions in new modern machinery equipment to make a product for a limited segment of the aftermarket. So they use old unmaintained equipment with worn out bearings and parts. Even in 2000, 23 years ago there were 4 separate manufacturers of Flat tappet lifters. All US based, US companies. One left, and it's not one of the 'original' manufacturers that did it back in the day. Maybe in name only. The current 'Johnson', well both 'Johnson's have NOTHING to do with the old Johnson Lifter's owned by Sealed Power when they were in Muskegon. AC Delco. Gone. Eaton. Gone. Stanadyne. Gone. Some were better than others but any of those were better than what you get today.
Hey, I got where I am with tuning by fiddling with screws and timing and listening to how engines respond, and I gained my electrical knowledge by breaking down, or piecing A-bodies back together… not by training in a classroom, a factory, or anywhere else.
@@DeadDodgeGarage That's cool! I used to be a professional engineer but not that kind. I learned on the fly too. The hard way. Some say the best way cause you never forget. I was talking about the manufacturing industry regarding loss of knowledge.
I spoke to a guy a while back at the 'other' Johnson lifter. The machine that puts that crown on the lifter is a very complex operation and that machine is specialized and super expensive. I watched one in operation. It's like an oribital finisher that pivots on it's axis. That's why the lifters look like they have those 'scuffs' all around the radius of the base. The crown is only .001-.002 but needs to be consistent. I believe the problem with some of these 'newer' lifters is the pattern is football shaped instead of circular on the crown even if you can detect something of taper.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I read the books, but I also listened to what the mechanics said. They knew a lot of stuff that wasn't in the books. Back then a lot of work people did was pretty sloppy. That's why the points ignitions got a reputation for being "unreliable". Actually, all the old stuff was very reliable and a lot more simple.
@@vincemajestyk9497 that matches what I have seen in videos by a machinist on TH-cam whose name I can’t think of right now - he chucked up a brand new lifter and started resurfacing it, and a football-like oval pattern appeared showing his machine was resurfacing that area and not yet touching the whole face. So… that ain’t good…
I'll tell you one awkward way I bleed a lot of the air out of the cooling system when filling the system. I grab a little kernel of oil dry and put it in the thermostat so it holds the stat open a little. Sometimes I've drilled a small hole in the flange part of the thermostat. Once, I experimented and drilled two 1/8-inch holes in the flange, I guess it was too much, it would not warm up while idling. I blocked one of the holes and the engine warmed up fine.
Interesting. The screwdriver has always worked pretty well for me. I’ll never drill another thermostat. I do like the “ultra stat” with the little jiggle valve for bleeding the system. There are plenty of good ways to get it done.
Well I run Shell Rotella 15/40 in all my flat tappet engines , gas and diesel or I could run Delo 15/40 but If I remember right Rotella has a tad bit more zinc . Most all engine oils they have taken the zinc out because a lot of engine are OHV and because of smog and EPA . You could also buy Racing oil that has zinc in it but my flat tappet engine have never been rebuilt and are stock .
I was only discussing oils for cam break in, and the two I mentioned were actual beak in oil and high zinc “racing oil” with an additive.
We need to find a cam company that checks their workmanship before boxing it up. Apparently it's not Comp Cams. It's just not realistic as a hobby muscle car home shop mechanic to have to do high level grind inspections that may be over our pay grade on a brand new setup. We need to do the stuff that is in our wheelhouse as much was detailed very very well in this video. I expect that the new parts are good if they come from a company in business as long as CC. Need to find a cam company that is sending out quality controlled products.
I completely, completely agree.
Elgin pro Stock cams are fine
Is there anything that can be done to prep the lifter bores? I followed instructions on the Hughes website and have a handful of lifters that ride up on the lobe but don't follow it back down. I'm wondering what I can do to help with that?
Oh that’s definitely not what you want. As you know, they really need to drop right in and move smoothly. I did not discuss that in this video, but did in previous videos on this engine. Yes - there are different ways they can be refinished. Any of them will require thorough cleaning of the attached oil passages afterward, so if your engine is partially assembled, unfortunately you’ll really want to break it back down. I’ve seen rust spots that I’ve removed with steel wool and some lubricant. I’ve seen nicks, proud spots and similar which I have removed with light sanding. And, they can be refinished with a small hone. This is essentially what the machine shop does. I imagine something like a small brake cylinder hone is pretty ideal for this - although I have never attempted it myself.
The windage tray is a non-issue. I've never removed them and looked into this. The oil is draining down from the block and hits the crank then the tray before draining into the pan. The crank is above the tray so will still aerate or agitate the oil draining back from the valley. It might actually help but isn't a detriment. Actually, the more important thing is the fact that rod bearing shells are made without the notch for the rod oil piss holes now. Have been for some time. While it's not a causal factor for a wiped cam it sure could help these days having the extra oil thrown around.
You can get break in rockers with 1.2-1.3 ratio. I would use the factory stamped rockers for break in since they are rarely 1.5:1. If you are running adjustables I would break in with the stamped stockers.
I think the biggest likelihood of your issue was the lifters. I've broken in cams on the 'Hemi' Springs with 310-340 psi without a problem. I wouldn't recommend it though. I've always used the black moly paste lube. It's thick and what 'works for me'. I have been checking the taper on my cam and lifters. All you need is a 'Vee' block a dial indicator and a magnetic fixture. But even if you don't have those you can just assemble everything without the pushrod and check your lifter rotation to make sure they all spin. If some don't you can swap them around in the bores until they all do. Some may spin faster or slower than other. That's OK. As long as they all spin. I paint a white stripe or a '+' on the pushrod top and pull the valve covers and spin the starter or crank it up for a few seconds and check the rotation.
BTW, there is only ONE US based HFT manufacturer. And even they are probably not what they used to be for a number of reasons. Safest bet. BUY NOS. Last I checked Johnson's were selling for $300-$400 a set. You can buy 2 sets of vintage NOS lifters for that price.
Damn it, I didn’t mention NOS lifters at all in this video, did I?! That’s what we put in this engine 🤦♂️ I knew I was forgetting something important. For crissake.
This engine is running stamped rockers so… done. But I am not familiar with break in rockers. That’s really interesting. I completely agree - I think it was a crappy lifter failure. I already made a video in which I said exactly that. The purpose of this video was really to wrap up everything I’ve learned since then, and try to give a better big picture view of what’s going on here.
Someone commented before about making sure pushrods were spinning too. I recently had valve covers off of a perfectly good engine and watched for this. Many of the pushrods didn’t spin. I have questions.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Good deal. That's really your safest bet. '98-'01 that was the beginning of the 'problems'. I think the original 'Johnson' was bankrupt by then. Eaton just quit the HFT biz and Stanadyne was going under. All the HFT's that come in cam kits now are either 'hit or miss' Johnson's (HyLift/USA) or really sketchy Mexican Sealed Power (reboxed). There was (is) another REALLY great Johnson Lifter from Taylor, MI but unfortunately, they bailed of the HFT market in 2016 or 2017. They did make some nice lifters for a while.
I always thought it might be a good idea to take some junk valve covers and cut a long window along the side (facing the intake) and silicone on a piece of plexiglass just to watch the pushrods and make sure they're spinning during run in. I have seen some start and stop early during break in but OK at the end. I think most of the bad lifters are Mexican.
@@DeadDodgeGarage If your pushrods are spinning it means your lifters are spinning and rotating. It's hard to see sometimes. You need to clean off the top of the pushrods near the rocker and use a paint pen and mark a stripe 1" long or so (maybe put a '+') so it's easy to see. Bottom line, if you can't see pushrod rotation the lifters isn't either. It's because of the force when the cam is opening the valve the lifter and pushrod are solid so any rotational movement is transferred to the pushrod. I learned that from an old tech guy at a cam company many ages ago.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Break in rockers are an easier way of lowering spring pressure without changing valve springs. Typically somewhat less than your 'normal' 1.5 rocker arm ratio. Most of the stamped Mopar rockers are anywhere from 1.34 up to 1.43 or so. Rarely ever actually 1.5. Even if you have a hydraulic cam it's worth it to get a cheap set of adjustables to get the full lift and dur from your cam. More of the lift though. To be honest though unless you have crazy spring pressure 330-340+ you wouldn't need them.
Back in the 60's we never had issues with cam/lifter in Chryslers. The only engines with inherent cam issues were sb Chevys. But most of those engines didnt have windage trays. Cams and lifters were largely stock, as were springs and rockers. Very often cams and lifters were used and not always inserted into the proper holes. We were just dumb kids, learning and no doubt lucky. I guess better oil and eorn out val e springs?
Windage tray is a 'non-issue'. If you knew nothing else about oiling, physics, etc. The factory never took them out to run-in an engine nor did anyone in the last 50-60 years and empirical evidence proves it isn't a problem. Granted the lobe profiles were milder but still.
I definitely see those as factors. Even the “performance” cams of that day were nothing like what we’ve got now. As I understand, the Chevy problem is down to a smaller diameter lifter? I recall there was a rash of failures there in the 80s or something. I try to not have to know about Chevys.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Yup, I know what you're referring to with the GM core crisis. that was actually across all divisions I think and it was traced to cores not being heat treated properly. So yes, a smaller lifter has less load bearing surface and won't rotate as fast.
The old 'Low Taper' Hemi and 6bbl hydraulic cams from 1970-71 had a flatter contact area and was moved closer to the edge to 'promote' lifter rotation. I've seen these lifters called 'High Rotation' lifters in some parts catalogs. I used to have a couple sets a few years ago and sold them. Good luck finding either a cam or lifters for either if you have one or the other. Reason they did it was for longevity. The OE 'Hemi' valve springs used on those engines were 298-310 lbs open depending on what spec you believed. Compared to 250 ish for a stock Magnum 'red' spring. I did measure those 'Low Taper' lifters and the were practically flat. Only .0005-.001 taper. I'd be afraid to run those now. It was just the factory engineers being cautious. Those cams had HUGE ramps anyway.
Once again, I have learned a lot from you. Thanks!
Ive had people well friends actually had suggested Howard's and summit racing brand cams and lifters and I think im leaving the dodge ram be it doesn't have valve train noise and after the sbc build up the 355 i don't want to add it just for it to get a nice lope..
We heard that too, and ordered one from Howard’s. It took two months to get. Looking forward to seeing what that is like when it goes in an engine. Haven’t so much as inspected it yet.
Whens the video of the Wiped out Cam and Lifters being changed out ?
…like a month and a half ago I think?
Jamie, if I was building a 340 or a 360 how can I build it to get the most bottom-end mid-range torque out of it and could you recommend a Cam and lifters for that purpose?
I can’t really recommend a cam for that any better than a catalog. There are so, so many options. These days, “the way” seems to be relatively high lift combined with less duration for less lope and better low end performance, and good top end power. But the word “relatively” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Compared to the .444 lift cam, .484 would be substantially larger - and yet relatively little lift by today’s “everything needs 500 HP” standards. I can tell you the .515 lift Thumpr in my 360 is definitely not what you want.
I think the best thing for you to do would be to contact a cam grinder. Tell them your combination, what you want to do with this car, and let them make some recommendations. If you have an automatic with a stock stall and highway gears, you would be shooting yourself in the foot with a radical cam choice.
I wish I could say I'm a gear-head when I compliment you on this tutorial.
What I can say is that I like, and I believe there's a large populace out here that naturally is into mechanical inquisition. I feel mechanics and the understanding of same is innate in our biological DNA.
Ergo, I'm transfixed by these videos about things mechanical in which I've depended on for my entire life.
The combustion engine is an amazing multitude of bits and parts that come together to transport the human and all our needs, wants and desires.
Now I'll add what maybe I've said here before as it always applies in such cases.
The definition of 'experience' is simple.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted.
What say you Jamie?
p.s. edit, I forgot to add that I watch your channel bc I like how you bring the story to me.
Your patter for me is comfortable to my ear.
Keep on doing what you do and how you do it, sans any self conscious concerns regarding your presentation, your presentation is IMO, humble but as one that had been involved in oration for a living, quite well received and easy on the ear.
Well I definitely appreciate that. And I have to agree on experience. I do think at least a bit of learning comes from things going as expected… but you get so much more out of the unexpected. I sure do, anyway. What an interesting journey this is.
This channel really is story telling. There are cars, there is failure, there are dumb jokes. Heck, sometimes there is useful information! But what I’m really doing is telling a story. I realized that relatively recently. I’m not entirely sure what to do with that information. Enough people like it for me to say that it works as a style, and to keep doing it. Haha.
When Dan at DD Speed Shop had the big block Chevy cam fail on his video he didn’t understand what had happened and and after he got hold of that same cam company and explained what happened well I guess he felt like he got screwed just like what happened to me and DDG and after that he made another video wearing a tee shirt that said comp scams. I’m guessing he didn’t get a replacement and like what they did to me as well put the blame on myself. I’ve built 20 or 30 engines myself and my first failure was last year and I followed every damn step in the book but hell I’m just an old man and I’m an idiot or at least that cam company made me feel that way after talking to them.
Right there with you, I think. I tried to blame the manufacturer - and really, it could be their fault. But I didn’t check them properly. It sucks we have to do that now… there were multiple shortcomings on my end that added up to what happened. I can learn. Happy to do it.
Funny that this video popped up on my feed. Was at my local machine shop yesterday where I was at last week on the same day and was just thinking about this subject when the video came up. Anyway, last week my buddy who also builds engines came in before I left to exchange some lifters he’d picked up for a stock build there. The lifters he brought in were supplied by TRW and had a step machined in the crown of the mating surface that measured 0.0015 deep on the outside circumference to 0.175 towards the center. What’s funny to me is that the lifters the machine shop gave him were manufactured by Elgin who as most of us know used to be the biggest supplier of flat tappet hydraulic and solid lifters and camshafts for many different cam sellers here in the US, including TRW.
Not trying to delve into politics in any way but thanks to the Clinton administration signing NAFTA or the free trade agreement many manufacturers and suppliers started farming out or sourcing materials as well as machining overseas. The quality control and standards of those parts aren’t even comparable to the parts made here. Sadly this has caused a lot of time wasted for myself and several of my buddies by sourcing parts off of the internet for new old stock and phone call after phone call to what ends up being keyboard clickers who don’t have a clue about the parts they sell. You bring up a ton of good points in this video. The only one I had trouble wrapping my head around was the 3,000 rpm for 30 minutes comment you mentioned. Absolutely no reason to run an engine that fast for that long that I could ever think of. 20 minutes of varying rpm around 2k has worked for me for 30 years and yes in a couple of different cycles is just fine. Never had a problem heat cycling one like that, wear patterns have been good so far and yes break in springs are a good idea especially when using aggressive double or even triple springs.
I’m one of those people who immediately changes the break in oil, only because of the fact that I have to know that the oil hasn’t separated out and cooled off leaving anything behind. Became more critical of doing so after starting to work with methanol as well as having to use zinc additives. Anyway, great video again, really enjoy seeing informative stuff on this channel. 👍
Yeah I really don’t know what that guy was on about. I have never seen a reputable builder advise that. It sounded pretty nutso - but he was very sure about it.
I know. Nothing is made like it used to be… let’s get it cheap, right? I would much prefer to pay extra for quality. Hopefully there are enough NOS cams and lifters to keep us going for a while… but I’m going to need to go make nice with the cam grinders sooner or later.
How was engine break in done at the factory? When they had hundreds of these engines rolling off the production line? Were they all ran at high rpm for a break in period?
Great videos BTW!
I am trying to find someone who can answer that question! I really don't know, and am very curious - especially because people keep saying "we didn't have to do that way back when" and "the factory didn't do that." Thank you! Also, is that a lil old tug boat I see in your picture?!
@@DeadDodgeGarage Yeah that's why I asked, 'cos it musta been a nightmare on the production line if they had to go through the same procedure lol. Yes it is, it's a Bufflehead 22'. It was built by a retired veterinary couple in Picton Ontario Canada in the late 70's. Came into my hands about 20 years ago. Aluminum hull, with Volvo diesel. Sleeps three, built like a brick outhouse and will outlast me for sure. Great for chugging around the lakes here, although the kids say it's too slow! Hmmm, I have a fresh 383 sitting idle ............. . Again, great vids.
@@guvsgarage That's awesome! I'd never heard of the Bufflehead and looked them up. They're so cute. Haha. I have been eyeballing classic wooden tugs in Puget Sound for the last year or two... I was tempted to sell the Charger and buy one. I'm just as glad I didn't. It would be a horrible life move. But some day... The mini tug is a great idea. Heck, that's small enough to moor at the nice city dock in the next town over. Shorter than my cabin cruiser by a couple feet.
As far as the break in, they've got people at the end of the line to drive the cars off. Whatever break in they may or may not have used would've been performed by them. I'm just not sure and would love to know.
If we can't trust camshaft manufacturers anymore, then this is indeed the beginning of the end times.
Spend any time watching videos about camshaft failures on TH-cam and you might find out the times started ending years ago… I guess I’ve just been lucky? I have always looked at the parts in boxes, said “mmmhmm” and slammed them in engines. Heck, sometimes I even clean them! It had worked really well for me so far.
It actually started in the mid 80's when efi came out and the Ford mustang and gm fwd cars were experiencing cat failure because it was getting way too hot same with the Buick rwd V6 motors, and they had apparently started removing the zddp content because testing proves it is directly related to this issue and then the aftermarket camshaft manufacturers especially at this time im referring to the overseas knockoffs were using a completely different metallurgy process,, remember the Buick rwd V6 231 cutlass supreme brougham my gold 85 I mentioned I replaced the oil pump and the timing chain gear set and it blew up shortly after,2004 guess what it had received a jc Whitney no name performance camshaft and they didn't change the lifters and I used a new oil pump that was given to me,by a name I had never heard of turns out it came from a swap meet,, I have never had good luck with the Buick rwd 231 V6 I still consider them junk but I knew something was was up when a 113k mile original motor failed. After I replaced the oil pump and timing gear set cloyes.another point was the 267k miles 88 Chevy S10 regular cab short bed loaded 2wd Tahoe with the factory sunroof I said I had with the knocking 2.8 litre 60 degree V6 it still ran it shook but it was still drivable motor was wasted it lost almost all oil pressure unless you were running 45mph or higher to about 60mph then it 25psi other than that it was bad it idled fine except when cold, but with that kind of mileage I knew it was not worth trying to save a gm 2.8 173 cubic inch V6 and I was keeping the truck for a project anyway but ended up selling it to a buddy for its interior and gas tank
I owned the 88 Chevy S10 around the same time and five years later was when the Chevy truck 355 was built
Jamie I remember back I n the late 70s car craft said never under 1000 rpm .drive the car keep rpm up. Don't stay the same. Keep above 2500 when you can. Then go 1000 rpm higher. Well pop was terrified when I eventually shifted into fourth at 6500 rpm. 125mph in the bee. 145 I backed off.
I'd heard of all these tips except the one about removing the windage tray, I think that's a bit excessive tbh.
Also the lifters should rotate regardless of engine speed. This can be tested with the valvetrain assembled but before break-in lube is applied.
One way to keep temps down during break-in is to hook up vacuum advance once the engine is running well. It's under zero load so 40-50 degrees total is by no means too much.
Roight. We tried vacuum advance with this one but it got angry. Apparently I had put way too much base in it by ear, so left it off. Did check it with a light, it sounded happy around 25 so I left it there. I was explaining to Tom as we were doing this that more timing equals less heat.
A couple people had suggested the windage tray thing, and it makes good sense to me, so I tried it and included it here. It might be pointless. I don’t think the possibility of extra oil flying around can hurt during break in. But it may well be excessive.
@@DeadDodgeGarage glad to hear you understand timing vs running temps, some guys are like "don't want to give it too much for break-in" and retard the timing from ideal which is silly. I get the reasoning behind the windage tray removal and I don't think it was bad to include in your video but for me especially breaking in an engine in a car, it's more trouble than I feel like going through haha. There is pretty constant oil spray coming from between the rod bearings which in my mind is plenty. But anyway like you said, it's a complicated problem and impossible to narrow down to one cause, I could be wrong 🤷
@@mopartron3030 totally agree. We are really lucky here because having the cart now, all of our engines are broken in before going in the car, and it’s easy to swap stuff like that before the final install. I could definitely see it being too much of a PITA and not worth it. I’m wrong all the time, and I’m totally fine with that. I’m here to share info - and that absolutely goes both ways. This is all one big thought exercise for me.
@@mopartron3030 oh yeah - and I learned about timing during break in many years ago, with bright, glowing headers on a 350 in a jeep melting everything around them 😅 sometimes learning is hard - but these are the lessons that stick with us.
Hey there, sorry ya trashed one there. It really does happen to all of us, Sooner or Later. Are we gonna see the tear down? Or did I miss something? Keep 'em coming brother.
Yes, I already did that. Haha. The video title starts with “Lifter Failure Carnage”
"Break-in" oil...funny you mentioned this, made me think...I've only used it once in the 30 plus years I've been building engines...
Cool!
I havent pit a cam in 25 years but when i was young and dumb i put a big cam in every junker i got and never even put new oil in them just lube and go never had a problem
There sure was a lot more room for error back then. Good parts and good oils.
Lot of info Bro! You are a Mopar God!
A lot of people are way over-thinking this. There are a bunch of factors that contribute to a successful breakin. For nearly ALL of those factors there's 'Ideal' and 'What you can get away with'. Oil, additives, RPM, runtime, technique, camlube, spring pressure and others. Fact is many, many engines over the decades made it though initial start up and beyond without eating the cam and lifters under 'less than ideal' conditions. The ONE (or TWO) things that you ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT get away with is improper taper on either the camshaft or tappets. There is NO forgiveness in this tolerance. If there is not immediate and continued rotation of the tappets it's going to DESTROY those mating surfaces VERY QUICKLY. It's THE single most critical factor. Period. Everybody reading this has done improper breakin's in the past without problems. Not using breakin oil, not running long enough, not varying the RPMs, heavy springs, even using used lifters. I've done it all myself. I would venture to say people are way more informed today about a 'proper breakin' than EVER before and yet there are more failures. It's not really 'rocket science'. I'll let you in on a secret. It's the Lifters.
Yeah. Me too. I think every break in I’ve ever done was give or take improper. Did I stutter when I described exactly the lifters as a problem? I dedicated an entire video to that. There are more factors that are worth discussing.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I ONLY use vintage NOS lifters. I haven't used any 'new' lifters since around 2000 when I didn't like the look of how they were being machined. There's still TONS of NOS lifters out there. I wouldn't get anything after the mid-late '90's. There were a lot of problems with the 3 big Mfr's around then, ie. quality and financial which seemed to go hand in hand.
i agree completely. i have 40+ years experience.
You know, talking about the cooling problem, I work with stationary Diesel engines, and even though they are the same as over the road truck engines, the radiators are about 3 times the size of truck radiators. I'm 6 ft. tall and some of the fans on these are as tall as me, solid metal blade fans, no fan clutch. Even in a perfectly good working car cooling system, they were designed to go down the road to be most efficient, not sitting still. Just my thought on it. Good luck.
Indeed. I’ve spent a good bit of time explaining similar ideas to people. But what cooling problem are we talking about? An engine warming up during break in?
Yes, such as overheating on a test stand or in a car, and having to shut the engine down too early.@@DeadDodgeGarage
Talk to Mopar Joe and he'll tell you what he does; mark each pushrod and watch each one for spin after start up. Smart man.
I know it
Not for nothing but a genset will run all day at 3600 rpm and stay cool. Not that you want to do that but get that air moving and it’s doable to stay cool on that stand.
Are we talking stationary gens, with a radiator as tall as me? Or are we talking marine, with giant channel coolers? Anyway, you’re absolutely right, and we’ve already solved that problem with a much better cooling fan. Our last break in went the full 20 in one shot.
@@DeadDodgeGarage like a 50kw job running with a big block ford. I see them tucked away in dank rooms all the time. Rads are bigger but not huge huge and they’re rated to run all day at full load.
Anyhow ya beat me to the punch in saying throw an electric fan with a shroud on there pulling room air across the engine and out . Nice setup with the break in stand.
Springs with dampers won’t be very high performance. It’s dual springs you gotta worry about.
I will never run a flat tappet cam on purpose after all these failures. It may cost triple the money for roller cam and lifters but piece of mind and lots more flexible for type oil used. Plus roller cams offer better profiles!
I get it. There are a lot of pluses to the roller, there is no doubt there. In fact, I am planning to use a roller cam in an upcoming build, for reasons completely unrelated to flat tappet failures. For my regular engine builds, I’m sticking with flat tappets. I feel like the one failure I’ve had out of dozens of engines is a pretty good average, really. I’m determined to keep building these engines the way they were designed to be - and cheap.
ELGIN cams are fine plus NOS lifters
Awesome video! Awesome information! 👍
also, stating a fact, before these last 10 years of "Bad" lifters you could break in an engine easier, without playing the "Mary-go-round" that is The flat tappet game, as of recent I do place blame on OE/Aftermarket manufacturers, Why? Well, they sell these products and grind them to spec, they claim to check these items before they leave the factory, that's WHY there are warranties, Placing the blame on yourself is giving into companies like Delphi, Morrell, Competition Cams, Lunati, Isky and more who peddle sub-standard products claiming "Ignorance" to the fact they are the ones who should be double Checking this, Powell Machine/Powell Cams in South Caroline Double and triple checked EVERY Lifter and camshaft that went through there shop, sadly, they no long sell Flat tappet cams due to bad machining.
I say this stating that it is not NOT user failure, it is not Your fault, nor is it any of the thousands of others suffering this issue, it's sad to see someone say "It's my fault" when it clearly isn't or wasn't Even cam break in directions specifically state to Do what you did, no where, not today or not ever have they (Comp, Isky, Lunati, Powell, Clay smith) said to Mic-out your Lobe taper, and lifter crown when that's there job for the goods they peddle to their customer base, not the customers job.
As for roller Cams, Yes, ALWAYS go Roller, no matter how much of a joke it sounds like, or how you make those who say it sound like a joke to you, stating Monetary Issues is silly especially Considering you're/They're dealing with a MoPar, arguably one of the most expensive Brand/s to buy for, why not take the extra step and precaution, what's worse, spending 6-7K USD on a build only to have it decimated and all down the toilet due to a $270-300 cam setup, or just going ahead and dropping the extra ~$1100 (1,074.99 according to Summit Racing for a full kit with springs/retainers/timing set/locators/locks) and not having to deal with a break in period, just drop them in, turn it on and go, and never have to worry, plus a small gain in power on the side thanks to Friction loss becoming Less of an issue.
Just don't sell the idea of a roller cam short, they're more than A performance upgrade, they're a Direct Upgrade and a Wallet Saver in the long term.
NO. I’m saying not to automatically go roller, and I will continue to say it. I’m not selling the roller idea short. I did a video documenting exactly what it costs, and why it makes sense - but also why I will not be using rollers for almost any of my builds. I have found two great solutions to this problem - use a local mom and pop cam grinder like Oregon Cams, or buy NOS.
I had multiple false starts with the engine that had the lifter failure. That’s on me. But the crappy lifter machining problem isn’t.
Does the manufacturer give break in information? Just asking i dont know 😊
They sure do… it’s pretty similar to a lot of what I’ve mentioned here.
It's going to live and be happy this time.
My fingers are crossed… like all of them
its better to spend $1200 on a cam kit than spend $300 on a potential grenade that can potentially destroy an entire engine.
There is a very simple solution. Don’t spend the $300 on a Comp, or whatever other garbage. Pay a cam grinder less than that to make you what you want and reface a set of lifters. If we stop rewarding these manufacturers by paying for their junk, maybe things will change. Maybe. And we help to keep the little guys open at the same time.
Ignition wire set was accel super stock yellow 8mm and switched to the factory Chevy truck sbc ac Delco 86 k20 replacement set from eBay the distributor was the Napa crate motor replacement with the napa ignition control module and the cap was the premium msd brass heavy duty gm replacement and new ac Delco napa ignition coil in the top of the distributor cap
"Unnecessary Idling"? How long is too long or unnecessary?🤔
I would call beyond a minute of idling excessive - *especially* when the engine is still breaking in. If your car needs to continue running at a stop for a longer period, I would be inclined to occasionally blip the throttle or briefly hold it at a higher RPM intermittently. Again, with a flat tappet cam, extended periods of idling can lead to lifters not spinning and wiping out. I would just try to avoid that as much as possible. At least having it in mind could be helpful.
@@DeadDodgeGarage
Wow, that's deep. That would make me freak out at stop lights if I just picked up a car from a garage after a engine rebuild. 😬
@@dogdoc1 it should! You need to take precautions with a fresh flat tappet engine. Someone who builds and knows them well will be explaining this to you when they are done - because they want their build to live too.
@@DeadDodgeGarage
Thanks for the info i will take this to heart.
Another great video. I agree with all..
It's not just camshafts and lifters that need to be checked ,just about all parts these days have no quality, just seems that way to me me and many others
Completely agree. That’s why the note is “CHECK EVERYTHING,” not just check this one thing here. I say it again and again, in any video about engines. It might be to remind myself more than anyone else…
"Dyno" Don MacAskill from Shaver Specialties Racing Engines and Lake Speed Jr from Total Seal Piston Rings share tips and tricks on how to break-in your new or rebuilt engine. Failed camshafts, oil consumption and other problems can stem from improper break-in procedures, so watch as these two experienced experts show you how to properly break-in an engine without using an engine dyno. The video also references other resources such as choosing the proper break-in oil, so we've provided links to those videos below. th-cam.com/video/MhA_nVRhYew/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Certified Lubrication Specialist, Lake Speed Jr and Keith Jones share their knowledge and experiences with different brands of engine break-in oils. Spoiler Alert: The right break-in oil DOES make a difference, and the WRONG break-in oil can be disastrous. th-cam.com/video/Fj2NSteaPnM/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Dry graphite spray on cam and bottom of lifters with driven assembly grease.
I’ve heard a whole lot of ideas for what to use for this, but no one has ever said graphite spray before. I don’t know that that’s a good choice.
It just seems like this issue has been on the rise as of late...far more so than it was a decade or so ago. I was thinking it was a metallurgy thing. If the grinders are getting their blanks from less than reputable companies that could explain it.
It's not metallurgy or the cam cores. There's only ONE company that makes the cores. American owned made in Michigan. Same rockwell hardness as always, mid 40's to 55. Engine Power Components (EPC) USED to have some cores on the market but the majority are Wayvern Bartel.
After seeing the lifters from this engine that disintegrated, I also had some pretty big questions about the metals being used. I’m far from an expert, but many people who have in depth knowledge of this (like Vince who responded here) have said it isn’t that.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I believe Powell Machine has done extensive testing on cam cores and lifters and his conclusion is it's not an issue. At all. (The crown however is.) Cams are actually hardened as a unit right to the 'core' so it's impossible to get a 'soft lobe'. After all the destruction it takes the evidence with it so you have to work backwards at what you know you 'did right' or what can be ruled out and then surmise what it likely was caused by. Without rotation the lifter is destroyed FAST and you have no taper left to check.
There's a guy with a channel 'Metalmax Mopar' I think and he bought a whole 'tray' of NOS lifters back in the early days of ebay. Used them up over 15 or so years building engines and never 1 failure. Only change, he started using 'new' lifters and had failures. (A tray is like a bulk package of 100's of lifters from a MFR usually sent to a reboxer).
The engine speed recommended for flat tappet break-in is necessary because there is a sweet spot where actual friction is optimal. Too slow and there's too much drag. Too fast and there's too much heat and that causes weakness of the metal, which degrades to surface and it'll wipe. You're supposed to periodically vary from 2k to 2500 rpm. The biggest issue for failure is the shoddy manufacturing. Poor metal quality. We had Gen 2 hemis with their ridiculous spring pressure on flat tappets of the day and THEY didn't wipe out. They had windage trays too. Typical break-in procedure states 500 mile oil change after break-in. And psst....that Driven break-in oil is LOADED with zinc, i.e., the zddp you mentioned so no, the oil hasn't developed an A.I and detected the zinc and removed it also, you can be the greatest engine builder ever, but crap is crap, and it'll fail.
Yes - and that Driven break-in oil is also low detergent. Thanks.
It's SUPPOSED to be non-detergent. It is not intended for extended run time. It suspends trash for removal. So, it carries the zinc, and removes the initial waste products during the break- phase. Detergent oils break down these components, extending oil change intervals. That is not the goal on initial break-in. You're welcome.
@@tvdroid22 I don't understand how you don't understand that I understand this. I said it in the video. I'm saying it now. If you're taking issue with the fact that I said "low detergent" instead of "non detergent" in my last reply, it's only because that is *what it says on the Driven Break-In Oil Bottle.* Thanks so much.
Nope. Ain't buying it. You made several excellent points about new precautions on engine break in.
But that is the old game of tip toeing around, holding your mouth right in order to make a potentially inferior part work. The precipitious rise in cam failures over the past is NOT on assemblers. Tightening up(and documenting) your assembly proceedure however will be helpful the next time this happens and you're discussing it with the smartass in technical support.
It’s poor quality parts + aggressive cams + valve spring pressure + various oil problems. Notice I mentioned poor quality parts first - here, and in the video. I am completely in agreement - I have seen the videos documenting terrible lifter machining - but I think there is more to the issue, and to reduce it to just that one problem serves to cloud the possible view of a bigger picture.
I already made a video yelling into the abyss about crappy quality parts. You might have even seen it. Then, after reading lots and lots of input from people with more knowledge and experience than I have, I gained a slightly better understanding of the problem. One of my strengths in this (and in life, I think) is an ability to absorb new information and adjust to it. I know this wasn’t a problem in the bad old days. America knew how to make things then. I’ve been building engines for years and hadn’t had an issue until this one, so I must have done some things right.
I literally documented the build procedure of this engine on TH-cam, if they have any questions. 🙂
I could play devils advocate here….I used to work in a Chevy and a Chrysler dealership back when all cars still ran flat tappet cams….how come there was no cam break in process on a new engine from the OEM?…no break in oil either….a lot of people that bought new cars hardly ever ran them over 2000 rpm, yet the engines still lived…been doing a fair amount of research on this myself….first thing I’ve found out is, it’s more about oil film strength than amount of zinc ( you can actually over zinc an engine)…according to Mobil Oil, if you have at least 800ppm zinc/phosphorus flat tappets will live…been there, done that for 20+years now…..most people don’t know that zinc actually breaks down during use….have known (and used to teach) about cam lobe taper & lifter crown…not hard to check with a dial caliper and a dial indicator….also found out that the main company that’s having issues (initials are C C ) had a proprietary in house machine that made lifters…only to burn up in a fire, which left them scrambling to outsource lifters…found to be not a good source…..look for Johnson Lifters…
Well, one thing is for certain - modern oil is worse. Are you sure there was no break in process on new engines in that time? Are you sure there was zero engine break in before the cars left the factory? I really want to know, because people yammer on and on about how “we didn’t used to have to do that.” I want to know what Chrysler did in the 60s. It’s not something anyone has been able to tell me - yet.
@@DeadDodgeGarage as far as at the dealership level there was no break in....I did new car prep, and cars just came off the transporter with zero miles....I went through a checklist and put it out on the lot....and you can bet none of the OEMs would have people sit in each and every car (thousands every day) and go through a break in procedure.....I beg to differ on the quality of today’s oil....synthetic is definitely better, been doing once a year oil changes for myself and my customers for 22 years now, including fresh engine builds...haven’t lost one yet
@@Mr9501 synthetic is great - for modern engines that are designed for it. Things stay cleaner and it lasts much, much longer. Our flat tappet dinosaur engines beg to differ on that point… there had to be some process when they were first fired up and driven off the line. I would like to know what it was. If they hit the key and drove it straight onto a transporter, or if they did a heat cycle, or a period of higher RPM - whatever it was, I would really like to know that to be fact.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I’ll try to do some digging...living in the rust belt, a lot of the OEM’s had factories around here....I’m sure I can locate a few former assembly line workers and see what they remember...
There is no reason why cams should be wiping out other then that machinist made an error and missed something and it slipped through qc and was a one off thing.
How can your entire business revolve around parts that dont work that have worked for much longer then i have been alive.
Dont buy Comp stuff and dont buy Chinese crap...
I made it! What's for breakfast?
One of them frozen breakfast sandwiches, two coffees, and a healthy serving of loathing… so the usual
1 bowl Special K with strawberries, acup of black maxwell house(It was on sale), and two pieces of Hawaiian bread toasted with peanut butter.
Education is fun, especially when you can hitch a ride on somebody else’s learnin’ 🤓 Thanks.
"high energy" - thats a marketing name, and nearly meaningless in the grand scheme of things. It does not indicate ramp intensity, although I happen to know they are faster than the magnum line coming off the seat.. For 0.006" to 0.050" lift, the card lets us do the math. Please note muscle car era cams were 30 degrees or more, for longevity. The flank??? Send that off for Cam Doctor inspection - it can chart lift degree by degree if you like. I am a fan of parkerizing: hardness goes just a little deeper than other processes from what I've read, and as a bonus... it seems to give oil something to hang on to just a little better. As for "break in"... if grind geometry and surface finsh [cam & lifter] is good, why are we putting in an oil designed to increase wear through reduced protection? It may just be that people taking springs out [or changing to weaker ones] are trying to escape their break-in oil?
So a little end note on bad ideas: how they sometimes get started. Remember all those old car magazines? Well... theres a problem even god guys can't escape: meeting deadline is the golden goose - without content, advertisements go nowhere. For that reason, getting things right can only rise to number 2 on a priority list. Publish or perish. Anyone know where "break-in" mantras started? I... don't know. But math suggests that back in the day, assembled flat tappet engines got about 5 minutes worth of run-in time, then went out for final assembly or remediation. But just maybe a break-in procedure is needed, and the "more is better" crowd is breaking engines by stretching 5 minutes into 20 or 30? Detroit has moved on regarding design, so it would be the retired that can answer some of the unknowns. I'd love to hear from engine assemby guys that actually did the work in the 60's or '70s.
I’m hoping to hear about the actual factory procedures for engine break in some day. Stupid idiots on the internet have tried to tell me there couldn’t possibly have been any factory break in procedure - an argument that makes zero sense. But I have no data to go on. High energy is a proprietary name, but belonging to the largest cam manufacturer has helped it become the defacto name for a lobe matching its profile. If you think that’s meaningless, ok. I am confused by your description of break in oil. And at this point I think I’m done typing.
@@DeadDodgeGarage From what little I can gather, typical oil these days loses protection somewhere in the 80,000 to 90,000 psi ranges. Some are way better, some worse. Break in oils quit somewhere in the low to mid 50,000 range - thats why I say increased wear through decreased protection. One of the ongoing tasks I dig at is trying to find non-automotive uses that engage similar treatment. I'm still looking... and assuming this is a valid means of preparing machined surfaces for use, surely this happens somewhere outside car engines? Maybe bedding new cross slides on a steam locomotive? So for the time being, I am resigned to only one thing needing initial increased wear: rings. They have to seat on startup, and lapping compound cannot be used in a mock up - it would probably get into ring lands and cause unwanted taper [plus... can't fire up a motor with that anywhere in the first place].
So knowing that lobe taper vs lifter crown presents a small proximal tangent area with peak load, I ran some hypothetical numbers. Spring load over the nose: 300 pounds and rockers are 1.5. That becomes 450 pounds force through lifter directed at the cam. Area? Estimate 0.008 square inches of peak load area on the lifter [roughly 0.090"x0.090"] - that becomes 56,250psi the oil has to be better than... and acceleration forces are yet to be added.
Meanwhile, I likely dress bores with break in oil, put vr1, redline or some such in the sump and fire it up - change the oil somewhere between 50 and 100 miles to see if anything is going south. I'm paused on a current build for cash reasons, but also... up to my eyeballs with bizarre electrical issues. 12v neg post to chassis WITH cables all attached where it worked [for years] before? The twilight zone has landed under my hood.
You shall not die camshaft!!
LIVE, DAMN YOU!
Maybe some entrepreneurial person could build a break in machine were you insert the cam and lifters and spin it until the lifters are mated . Then after break in you can put them in the actual engine
That’s essentially what a Spintron does.
Well for those of us that like old school stop or try to bring stuff back to stock flat tappet have served perfectly well for years and I've had some pretty radical cams with flat tappet in the engines ran perfectly fine matter fact the 360 that I'm running today has 450000 miles on it still runs absolutely perfect on flat tappet
I started using the 10-10-10 break-in method even when "aggressive" spring pressures aren't a factor. Mostly becasue it gives two intentional cool down periods to tweak/troubleshoot things if needed.
th-cam.com/video/b2LzSz9W1Sk/w-d-xo.html
Nice. I actually just read something else saying the same this morning. I really like it. Little issues always come up, so it’s great to have the time to deal with them. Snug valve covers… check fluids… double check other fasteners. Etc.
Isky Rev lube is the best, contains molybdenum disulfide.
Lifters MUST rotate!!!
I've broken in a comp cams XE grind with the springs supplied for running, not a light break in spring. Was fine.
And non detergent oil with a zddp additive
Never had a failure with this combo
1) Isky rev lube
2) proper taper on cam and a lifter crown to insure rotation
3) non detergent oil with zddp added
Good stuffs
Too much idle time is why many chrysler hemi's go bad. Especially the police cars which sit and idle most of the time.
Yep - trucks too.
I'm old but I like watching old cars live new lives. Grew up in a Chevy Family and we had two new Chevy's in 1969, a Malibu for mom and a base camaro for my dad to commute in. The tenant in the apartment bought a brand new 1968 Charger in green with a vinyl roof. He got the 318 but upgraded the suspension and tires with every available option and got the redline polyglas tires. It was my introduction to Chrysler performance and I have liked them since. Your Charger is really nice BTW.
@@DeadDodgeGarage
The windage tray aspect is moot!
You’re far from the first person to say so.