I have modified long board that runs from 5V USB. I replaced original linear regulators with Delta DC/DC modules that provide 12v, 9v and 5v analog supplies. I also added 60Hz oscillator that provides clock signal to TOC, so that cursor blinks and some software can keep time. 9V ac is not really needed for anything except some odd user port devices that had their own small transformers.
Nice mod, and at the same time a more reliable power regulator than the old one. Coupled with a modern switching power supply, it should be good to go for a very long time. :)
This is awesome. A great idea to try, and damn... it works. I smiled when I saw my little pinout diagram up on your screen - glad to see it is actually useful. Great stuff as always, Jan!
Finally a useful extension for old computers. Well Jan, that's something I subscribed to right away, because these extensions to these computers are much better than just these constant restorations.
I converted my SNES and Genesis to USB so i could remove the crummy 7805 and run them on clean, efficient USB power supplies. Gets rid of those huge power bricks too.
Yeah! Of course, the luggable (SX-64) did exist, but some contraption (with the real hardware, no emulation) including a display that can run on batteries would be nice.
Of all the conversions and tinkering, this has to be the smipliest yet the most useful one on the C64 (and the VIC-20). I mean, "turn key", unmodified (if you discount the SID-chip), PORTABLE C64 right out of the box? Get out of town! Massive congratulations, Sir!
I built a similar adapter for the short boards, but added a voltage doubler IC that converts the 5V DC to 10V DC which is fed into one of the 9V AC pins. This way I can use an original SID. The output volume is a bit lower because the 10V DC is reduced by the rectifier diodes and maybe some other parts which means a bit less than 9V get to the SID. I tried it with an FPGASID, but the volume was extremely low, seems like it does not work properly if it is powered by less than 9V. Using 10V DC instead of 9V AC also prevents the AC driven timers of the CIA from working, but the system clock timers work. I found only a few games that use the AC driven timers and therefore do not work properly (maybe 1 or 2 out of 100). I used this kind of power supply for a while and it did not cause any problems. Here is a special use case for this power supply (I had no sound because I had no speakers) th-cam.com/video/RHn0FnUDhBQ/w-d-xo.html
Very cool. I was actually expecting the VIC 20 CR to work. I repaired one once and did a lot functional testing excluding the Cassette port. Ran diagnostics and Cassette was failing. Found out the fuse was blown and almost everything worked with a blown fuse!
@@JanBeta at 14:09..... try a MT3608 DC DC step up module for the 12v..... and a better (thick) USB cable.. one from a external HDD for example... because in the computer you probably have like 4.4v or less with that crappy cable....
@@JanBeta My thinking was to use a buck converter to get the 9v for the SID, the current draw shouldn't be too bad but there's always the danger of introducing noise. Main reason I didn't go too far was the need for TOC for done EasyFlash programming tools (IIRC) so I was going to look into using a 555 to generate 50hz for it. Still haven't got my head around the 555, though!
Excellent idea and execution for a proof of concept. "Proof of concept" isn't meant to be pretty so you hit the mark with this project. Thank you for the video.
My hat goes off to the guy who recreated that SID chip. Looking at that made me think it must have taken serious time and effort to recreate! Nice job, BTW Jan ;-). Du hast auch natürlich gut gemacht ;-).
This is one impressive proof of concept. I can totally see a whole range of new and compact USB/USB-PD powered power supplies for the VC20/C64 that make use of your idea but also manage to empower the user port and long board variants without issue. Then again, maybe such devices too exist already, I'm not all too much involved in the hardware scene for the C64 :
A simple but very refreshing project, the fact that we can have sound made this really neat. And yes, just like David Murray used to be the iBook guy ages ago, you're the C64 Guy in my book (although Adrian has been a serious contender at some point).
I have a nice old digital personal scale with a VFD display. The battery tray was terribly corroded when I bought it so I decided after fixing the main PCB to make it USB powered since it was originally powered by four AA cells.
So I can leave the power brick at home lightening the load in the boogie bag! All I need now is the micro-projector adapter for the C64's video port to blast a white wall with the c64 glorious colour pallette; DJ'll make the sounds
So let's make PCB to generate 9V AC from 5V DC... that can be done on really super small PCB that can fit somwehre inside of the C64. Only we need to calculate possible power usage on 9V AC, to really design board that can suport it. Love long and prosper
I'm a total electronics noob, but how difficult would it be to generate 50Hz 9VAC from the 5V USB supply? Does it have to be a nice sine wave or would a +/- 9V block wave suffice? Does it even need to be AC (i.e. is it immediately rectified on the board or is there a negative voltage used on the board itself)? I would expect that a converter able to provide power to any C64 from a USB source would be even better than a solution without SID chip.
at 14:09..... try a MT3608 DC DC step up module for the 12v..... and a better (thick) USB cable.. one from a external HDD for example... because in the computer you probably have like 4.4v or less with that crappy cable....
With the SidKick Pico, my C64 runs and produces sound using only a 5V power supply, but without 9V, the sound volume is around 30% compared to when 9V is used. I’ll look into the cause more deeply when I have time, but I wanted to mention this in case anyone is interested: if you’re planning a 5V revolution with SidKick, keep the volume loss in mind. Thanks a lot for the great videos!
Interesting! Maybe the SidKick uses the 9V rail as a secondary source to derive 5V from it and needs more current. I haven't looked into the SidKick at all yet but that would be interesting to figure out. :)
@@JanBeta Dear Jan, first of all, thank you for your response. Regarding powering the Commodore 64 with 5V DC, I kept focusing on the volume reduction issue, believing that the SidKick Pico would save me from a lot of hardware modifications. Once I connected a DAC module to the SidKick Pico and routed the sound output through it, the volume issue was resolved, and now I can use my Commodore 64 efficiently. Wishing everyone good health and great days ahead.
@lovemadeinjapan I don’t have knowledge about this topic. When there is no 9V, the original SID doesn’t produce any sound. Even if we assume what you said is correct and consider performing the amplification later with another circuit, how to do that remains unclear. I’ll look into this further.
I clicked on this, expecting some clever circuitry to get the 9V ac needed. Slightly disappointed, but I learned that the SwinSID and other replacements don't need the 9v. I assume the 9V was used by the analogue part of the SID
Nice. The 9VAC can be generated from 5VDC electronically. I don't know the current required but if it is lower than 100mA there are a lot of very simple ways to create a crude AC signal. By the way you should toss that powerbank out, it is ridiculous that it drops the voltage even under 700-800mA load.
I switched to emulators and a C64 mini long ago (my 4 C64/1541 sets are in a box at the other end of the country), but I would have gone for a DC/AC converter to generate 9V/50Hz from the 5V USB, the troublesome part being the need for floating ground, iirc.
Watched the video with great joy 🙂 Next step could be modifying the C64 for full usb power. I guess it can be done with some voltage converters and 50Hz square wave.
i think the whole long board use the voltage after the 7805 so if you power the 5 volts right at the out pin of the 7805 the C64 should power up fine if i have a C64 i would have checked how the other 12 volts chips run from a 9 volts source
long-board used "pulls", the VIC II and 6561 SID (both 12V) are a sad result when inserted in a short board (8580 SID with "new tech" HMOS-chemistry transistors)
have you looked into the USB-C to fully power the C64 (+5 & +12volts minus the AC 9v)? reason I ask because someone created a USB-C Colecovision power adapter that supplies +5 +12 & -12 from usbc.
The armsid needs the 9V, otherwise the sound is very low. My C64 ran on 5V only because the 9V fuse was blown without me knowing. After I inserted the armsid I wondered why the audio was so low and it was because the 9V was missing.
I'm quite surprised that the VIC-20 works on just 5 Volts, even though the C64 long boards were produced after the VIC-20 production has stopped. Since both machines share the same VIC-II chip, what makes the VIC-20 work yet not the C64 long boards?
@@JanBeta- Well I guess this old dog can learn some new tricks after some 40 years. heh It's nuts how Commodore chose to use a 9V-AC supply just to convert it to 12V-DC inside the C64, instead of using a more efficient and reliable switching power supply. Should have used a Buck converter for the 5V rail, and a Boost converter for the 12V rail inside the power supply. After all, the switching power supply came out in 1958 by none other than IBM. ;)
But if 12 volts needed, for longboards, cannot be put a voltage elevator module to reach the reuired voltage. For the clock, if we dont like to have it stopped,a 555 can't do the trick? Ultimately the 12v required are cc. Even the dataset must rectify the 9vca.before use.
Hello Nice project. Now you could add a circuit that generates the sine wave, with an ICL8038 type integrated and a small Audio transformer, to generate the 9vac and use at least the original SID. But is 9vac not also used to clock the CIA?
When I solder DIN plugs I always cut away half of the tube you need to put the wire in with a Dremel. So it becomes cup shaped. Way easier to solder this way. Made a video to show this a long time ago.
So basically if I solder a DIN plug to a random 5V USB charger I have a working C64 and I can trash by doorstopper chunk of copper, glue and plastic? Maybe the SID won't work, but I can't like the sound of it, so that is no problem for me. Or does it fail on SID handshake on boot or something like that?
The vast majority of software works without a SID. Some games/demos check for a SID being present though. I'd put in a good replacement (like an ARMSID) and pretty much everything should work with 5V.
If the old VIC-II GPU needs 12V but those 12 are derived from the 9 via some sort of little step-up (Where's the transformer?), then why didn't they just make the system use 12VAC in and then use a simple voltage divider to get the 9 where those are needed?
How about 50/60Hz clock generation circuit for CIA chip? 9VAC is also used for Tape motor, I assume this will not work either. 8 bit Atari used 5V only which is cool.
I wasn't sure this was going to work. When I built my PSU I bought a MIDI cable (so I didn't have to solder a DIN) and soldered a USB cable to it. At the time I was using a flimsy desoldered female USB port. The system worked, but there were like 3 games glitching with my U2+ installed. But I was very concerned about the desoldered port shorting out since it was so flimsy. So instead I bought a USB extension cord. The problem got worse because the extension cord wiring wasn't as thick as the cables I used previously. Now everything was glitching. Even BASIC would glitch. The colors were all off when the screen scrolled vertically. If you removed the U2+ the system was fine. So I measured the voltage from the board with the U2+ installed. I got 3.5V LMAO. I'm like how the hell does it work at all? So eventually I got a proper power cable and removed USB from the equation all together. Now I get like 4.9V with the U2+ installed. No glitches. The MIDI cable was certainly a problem, but USB wasn't helping either. Then again maybe the USB cables I was using was just too cheap.
HEY @JanBeta! What was the specs of the power bank and how long did the c64c lasted with a game running in the background on a full charged power bank?!
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Hey Jan, how long does the battery last? just curious? an hour so?
It would be interesting to see some kind of circuit as an add-in board to make 9VAC out of the 5V to build into the c64 and ditch the 9VAC PSU requirement altogether.
grüße, hab gerade dein clip gesehn!...geilomat🙂und mit der "kung fu flash" ist das setup für mobile geschichten ideal,oder was denkst du? PS: die swimsid ist bei mir zu leise, das sie nicht funzt.könnte das am usb netzteil liegen?...grüße aus chemniitz, ne schöne restwoche..mach weiterso und danke für deine clips, dude...ohne dich hätte ich viele fehler gemacht..beim atari ste ;-)...
Very cool! Interesting that those cost-reduced VIC-20s still draw nearly 50% more power than a C64, though I suppose that C64 has the benefit of even more cost-reduction. So if you had a 20000mAh power bank, does that mean it could run for 20 hours @ 1 A? Or is there some catch to those numbers?
The volume was turned down pretty low on the TV while I tried the swinsid so it doesn’t translate very well through my lapel mic. There definitely is sound! :)
That’s a bit trickier, the older models need a 12V rail for the RAM as well as 5V for the rest of the system if I remember correctly. The original power supply is 9V DC. You would either have to add a 9V converter to the USB power bank or modify the mainboard.
is there a story behind the "lips" sticker on your monitor ? in every episode i kinda think of it (damn aspergers syndrome) :-P i realize it's the last part from a philips sticker..but would be fun to hear if there is a point to it? :-P i remember seeing a synthband who erased a part of the R in Roland on the back of their synths so it said Poland instead of Roland :)
5V DC only supply should make the timers in the CIA-chips fail, because the need the AC flanc for triggering the timers. Some programs needing those timers may fail.
Yes, that’s true. You would still need some extra circuitry to make the AC parts of the system work though. But at least you would probably be able to use an original SID. :)
Wie sieht das denn aus mit dem C16? Der macht ja aus den 9V des Netzteils intern 5V, die dann jeder IC bekommt. Sollte doch direkt funktionieren. Oder?
@@RadolfDerGelehrte soweit auch von jan aus die aussage im video und im discord. Muss man sich halt fragen ob man sich in zeiten von arduino basierten emulierten datasetten und disklaufwerken noch eine echte datasette geben will.
Nice, and I cannot power an intel compute stick from batteries and that only needs 5V 2A, yet I could not find a stable voltage regulator (stepdown from 7.4V to 5V).
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 I did, but the stick reboots randomly, so I disassembled my old powerbank took out the four 18650 batteries and made my own powerbank: USB-C port and stepup to 9V, TP5100 + Battery Balancer board. The Li batteries are: 2 parallel and then in series (gives 7.4V and around 5A) then to the voltage regulator stepdown to 5V. Charging works, I power an LCD (6.5") through the LCD control board and the intel stick is just a z8350 (I want to upgrade it to M36Y30 once it works). Fun thing is that the first test were OK, I did run multiple games on it, like Ori, Dark Souls 1, Dead Space 1 for 10-20 minutes, but now the stick reboots between 1-5 minutes. It could be still not enough Amps, maybe I should limit the stick with Throttlestop, but my guess is on the cheap voltage regulator.
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 Than you for the tips, yes the first thing I changed was the cable and it got stable with a proper wire, but only for a while. I tried multiple voltage regulators but all cheap boards and I only have a VERY basic multimeter (which I do not trust too much), yes the problem must be voltage dips, maybe I will buy a proper voltage regulator from pololu or other.
Interesting experiment and great video! 😊 I've actually done something similar, replacing the 5 V linear regulator in the original power supply with an iPad charger.
@@stevethepocket Yes, modified the brick by removing the circuit board to make room for the slightly trimmed down charger. Looks original from the outside and works great so I'm happy. 😀
@@volvo245glt So is it like this, where it only provides 5V and you need a replacement sound chip? Because I've thought about doing the "rip open a couple wall warts and dump their guts into an empty power brick" thing, but I'd insist on having the 9V AC rail, and wall warts that put out AC don't just spawn in thrift store junk bins like DC ones do.
@@stevethepocket 9vac wall warts while not readily available in a thrift stores are easily obtainable online from electronics/parts resellers, such as Jameco. $10-$11. Easily opened to free their guts and ready to re-brick in no time.
Another fantastic video - thanks Jan. You make me want to buy a broken C64 just for fun. I have already tried something like this with my short board but found when plugged into a wall socket I got rolling noise on the screen. Anyone have any ideas how to get rid of it? I tried 3 wall warts - all noisy to different degrees. I tried adding a 1000uf capacitor - no change.
@@drmr_music the brick has a spool of copper wire on the transformer magnetic core that goes direct into the C=64. The polarity of the current running through the circuit loop charges a cap as if it were a battery, then reverses direction. When reversed, that charge "stacks" on top of another cap, like putting two batteries stacked inside a flashlight body. A rectifier "opens" like a pressure flapper valve and dumps the doubled voltage into another cap feeding 15V into the 7812 voltage regulator. The same "charge pump" voltage multiplier ladder, but with many more cascaded stages, is in those stun wands that make "lightning bolts" from a 9V smoke detector battery.
I played Up‘n‘Down, The Bear Essentials and Neutron. :)
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Nice! I guess the voltage (which is already DC) for original SID can be provided to add an internal DC-to-DC boost converter. Also, the missing TOD clock of CIAs can be clocked with external circuit providing 50Hz (in case of PAL) instead using of AC (even using an existing crystal oscillator somewhere on the board with the right divided ratio, if that can be easily derived that way). However these would need modifications anyway ... And still, lack of power for datasette and 9VAC on the user port are still issues. That cannot be solved easily. In theory, there can be some boost converter there too, as most devices using AC from C64 will use a rectifier anyway to convert it DC, but that's a dangerous game, also then not exactly the same voltage should be provided in DC and some can assume the voltage drop of a rectifier used by the device, but we cannot know what it uses exactly ... I would say, with a SID replacement, the missing working CIA TODs can be an issue, some software uses that for timing purposes. Probably not so common thing, though.
I have to admit going into this that I wasn't expecting something this comprehensive and educational. Great work as always! 👍
I have modified long board that runs from 5V USB. I replaced original linear regulators with Delta DC/DC modules that provide 12v, 9v and 5v analog supplies. I also added 60Hz oscillator that provides clock signal to TOC, so that cursor blinks and some software can keep time. 9V ac is not really needed for anything except some odd user port devices that had their own small transformers.
Nice mod, and at the same time a more reliable power regulator than the old one. Coupled with a modern switching power supply, it should be good to go for a very long time. :)
Nice work! Love the new meets old content 👍🕹️
This is awesome. A great idea to try, and damn... it works. I smiled when I saw my little pinout diagram up on your screen - glad to see it is actually useful. Great stuff as always, Jan!
That heat shrink tubing multimeter trick at 8:03 is awesome, thanks!
My goodness, of course! When I saw this trick I was like "Oh, yeah! Of course!!"
Finally a useful extension for old computers. Well Jan, that's something I subscribed to right away, because these extensions to these computers are much better than just these constant restorations.
Thanks, Jan for your spirit of hey let's try this and then trying it and your work at showing the rest of us
I converted my SNES and Genesis to USB so i could remove the crummy 7805 and run them on clean, efficient USB power supplies. Gets rid of those huge power bricks too.
Next challenge: Build a C64 laptop.
laptop, but was self powering and portable ☺☺It was already be don't , commodore 65, not laptop
Yeah! Of course, the luggable (SX-64) did exist, but some contraption (with the real hardware, no emulation) including a display that can run on batteries would be nice.
I have already built one
Get a laptop, run emulator, done.
The SID chip also generates random numbers. If it is missing or it is not working, some programs may behave strangely.
Very good video anyway.
You could just use 19V from USB-PD Powerbank and use two step down converters to get needed voltages.
Of all the conversions and tinkering, this has to be the smipliest yet the most useful one on the C64 (and the VIC-20). I mean, "turn key", unmodified (if you discount the SID-chip), PORTABLE C64 right out of the box? Get out of town!
Massive congratulations, Sir!
I built a similar adapter for the short boards, but added a voltage doubler IC that converts the 5V DC to 10V DC which is fed into one of the 9V AC pins. This way I can use an original SID. The output volume is a bit lower because the 10V DC is reduced by the rectifier diodes and maybe some other parts which means a bit less than 9V get to the SID. I tried it with an FPGASID, but the volume was extremely low, seems like it does not work properly if it is powered by less than 9V. Using 10V DC instead of 9V AC also prevents the AC driven timers of the CIA from working, but the system clock timers work. I found only a few games that use the AC driven timers and therefore do not work properly (maybe 1 or 2 out of 100). I used this kind of power supply for a while and it did not cause any problems. Here is a special use case for this power supply (I had no sound because I had no speakers) th-cam.com/video/RHn0FnUDhBQ/w-d-xo.html
Very cool. I was actually expecting the VIC 20 CR to work. I repaired one once and did a lot functional testing excluding the Cassette port. Ran diagnostics and Cassette was failing. Found out the fuse was blown and almost everything worked with a blown fuse!
Yes. YES. Join my mission to power EVERYTHING via USB! \o/
Your mission was definitely an inspiration for this. :D
@@JanBeta at 14:09..... try a MT3608 DC DC step up module for the 12v..... and a better (thick) USB cable.. one from a external HDD for example... because in the computer you probably have like 4.4v or less with that crappy cable....
@@JanBeta My thinking was to use a buck converter to get the 9v for the SID, the current draw shouldn't be too bad but there's always the danger of introducing noise.
Main reason I didn't go too far was the need for TOC for done EasyFlash programming tools (IIRC) so I was going to look into using a 555 to generate 50hz for it. Still haven't got my head around the 555, though!
@@Ramdileo_sys what about power Delivery? could use pd trigger for 12v and use multiple USB cables with tied ground
Quite impressive to see, especially the VIC-20 IMO! Could maybe make for some interesting new power supply options!
Excellent idea and execution for a proof of concept. "Proof of concept" isn't meant to be pretty so you hit the mark with this project. Thank you for the video.
My hat goes off to the guy who recreated that SID chip. Looking at that made me think it must have taken serious time and effort to recreate! Nice job, BTW Jan ;-). Du hast auch natürlich gut gemacht ;-).
This is one impressive proof of concept.
I can totally see a whole range of new and compact USB/USB-PD powered power supplies for the VC20/C64 that make use of your idea but also manage to empower the user port and long board variants without issue.
Then again, maybe such devices too exist already, I'm not all too much involved in the hardware scene for the C64 :
Good work, again, Jan! 👍😉
One of the most illuminating C64 videos I've ever seen! Brilliant! Mahalo!
A simple but very refreshing project, the fact that we can have sound made this really neat. And yes, just like David Murray used to be the iBook guy ages ago, you're the C64 Guy in my book (although Adrian has been a serious contender at some point).
Well, that was a fun little experiment, thanks Jan! 😀😊
I have a nice old digital personal scale with a VFD display. The battery tray was terribly corroded when I bought it so I decided after fixing the main PCB to make it USB powered since it was originally powered by four AA cells.
C64 without sound ? no way 😂 . Sid replacement price is the same as original /used/ PSU
I can live with that. Still have nightmares from visiting the Video Game Museum in Zoetermeer from the nasty Commando arps.
Nice one Jan!
I was wondering how you were going to get sound back in? Great stuff!
Now add a bigger power bank, add a circuit to create 9V AC the easy way with a square wave and make the Nirvana power bank! Thanks for the video!
Excellent work as always
Going mobile: yet ANOTHER reason why the C64e short boards are the best! 😎 -- JC
That's amazing! Great work.
Could use a USB-PD breakout board to pull 9V or 12V DC, then have a small circuit generate the 9 VAC and a voltage-divider for 5V DC
Nice experiment and interesting result! :-)
Geiles Video, Jan - danke!!
And now... the SX-64, please - powered by mobile power :-)
So I can leave the power brick at home lightening the load in the boogie bag! All I need now is the micro-projector adapter for the C64's video port to blast a white wall with the c64 glorious colour pallette; DJ'll make the sounds
So let's make PCB to generate 9V AC from 5V DC... that can be done on really super small PCB that can fit somwehre inside of the C64. Only we need to calculate possible power usage on 9V AC, to really design board that can suport it. Love long and prosper
I'm a total electronics noob, but how difficult would it be to generate 50Hz 9VAC from the 5V USB supply? Does it have to be a nice sine wave or would a +/- 9V block wave suffice? Does it even need to be AC (i.e. is it immediately rectified on the board or is there a negative voltage used on the board itself)? I would expect that a converter able to provide power to any C64 from a USB source would be even better than a solution without SID chip.
at 14:09..... try a MT3608 DC DC step up module for the 12v..... and a better (thick) USB cable.. one from a external HDD for example... because in the computer you probably have like 4.4v or less with that crappy cable....
With the SidKick Pico, my C64 runs and produces sound using only a 5V power supply, but without 9V, the sound volume is around 30% compared to when 9V is used. I’ll look into the cause more deeply when I have time, but I wanted to mention this in case anyone is interested: if you’re planning a 5V revolution with SidKick, keep the volume loss in mind. Thanks a lot for the great videos!
Interesting! Maybe the SidKick uses the 9V rail as a secondary source to derive 5V from it and needs more current. I haven't looked into the SidKick at all yet but that would be interesting to figure out. :)
@@JanBeta Dear Jan, first of all, thank you for your response. Regarding powering the Commodore 64 with 5V DC, I kept focusing on the volume reduction issue, believing that the SidKick Pico would save me from a lot of hardware modifications. Once I connected a DAC module to the SidKick Pico and routed the sound output through it, the volume issue was resolved, and now I can use my Commodore 64 efficiently. Wishing everyone good health and great days ahead.
Isn't that the way it works in an original SID too? That the logic is 5V, but the 9V only works for the final amplification stage?
@lovemadeinjapan I don’t have knowledge about this topic. When there is no 9V, the original SID doesn’t produce any sound. Even if we assume what you said is correct and consider performing the amplification later with another circuit, how to do that remains unclear. I’ll look into this further.
Another interesting video. I would never have thought of powering a C64 via USB.
I clicked on this, expecting some clever circuitry to get the 9V ac needed. Slightly disappointed, but I learned that the SwinSID and other replacements don't need the 9v. I assume the 9V was used by the analogue part of the SID
Jan,geniale,come sempre
I remember the time I blew the 9v fuse in my C64c and you told me, "hey it just works without the 9v fuse in", now there is a whole video to prove it.
Nice. The 9VAC can be generated from 5VDC electronically. I don't know the current required but if it is lower than 100mA there are a lot of very simple ways to create a crude AC signal. By the way you should toss that powerbank out, it is ridiculous that it drops the voltage even under 700-800mA load.
And here comes older Atari 8-bit series with its native 5V 1.5A power supply for everything 😀
I switched to emulators and a C64 mini long ago (my 4 C64/1541 sets are in a box at the other end of the country), but I would have gone for a DC/AC converter to generate 9V/50Hz from the 5V USB, the troublesome part being the need for floating ground, iirc.
Watched the video with great joy 🙂
Next step could be modifying the C64 for full usb power. I guess it can be done with some voltage converters and 50Hz square wave.
If you know how to do it, go ahead. The retro scene needs ideas like yours.
TTL voltage tolerance is 4.75-5.25V
i think the whole long board use the voltage after the 7805 so if you power the 5 volts right at the out pin of the 7805 the C64 should power up fine if i have a C64 i would have checked how the other 12 volts chips run from a 9 volts source
long-board used "pulls", the VIC II and 6561 SID (both 12V) are a sad result when inserted in a short board (8580 SID with "new tech" HMOS-chemistry transistors)
have you looked into the USB-C to fully power the C64 (+5 & +12volts minus the AC 9v)? reason I ask because someone created a USB-C Colecovision power adapter that supplies +5 +12 & -12 from usbc.
The armsid needs the 9V, otherwise the sound is very low. My C64 ran on 5V only because the 9V fuse was blown without me knowing. After I inserted the armsid I wondered why the audio was so low and it was because the 9V was missing.
Could you use USB PD for the long boards.. Doesn't it allow many differnt voltages depending on what single it receives..
I'm quite surprised that the VIC-20 works on just 5 Volts, even though the C64 long boards were produced after the VIC-20 production has stopped. Since both machines share the same VIC-II chip, what makes the VIC-20 work yet not the C64 long boards?
The VIC-20 used the predecessor to the C64's VIC-II. The original VIC chip only needs a 5V supply and produces graphics as well as sound output. :)
@@JanBeta- Well I guess this old dog can learn some new tricks after some 40 years. heh
It's nuts how Commodore chose to use a 9V-AC supply just to convert it to 12V-DC inside the C64, instead of using a more efficient and reliable switching power supply. Should have used a Buck converter for the 5V rail, and a Boost converter for the 12V rail inside the power supply. After all, the switching power supply came out in 1958 by none other than IBM. ;)
But if 12 volts needed, for longboards, cannot be put a voltage elevator module to reach the reuired voltage. For the clock, if we dont like to have it stopped,a 555 can't do the trick? Ultimately the 12v required are cc. Even the dataset must rectify the 9vca.before use.
What's the name of that shoot'em up game?
You said a clock would be derived from the mains frequency. What about it?
Or simply install a NE555?
Maybe build a step up 12 V with NE555?
Nice video, but how long is it possible to run the c64 on that powerbank before it must be charged again?
06:44 - I did not expect to see a Tasmanian devil _or_ a wombat in this video :)
Hello Nice project. Now you could add a circuit that generates the sine wave, with an ICL8038 type integrated and a small Audio transformer, to generate the 9vac and use at least the original SID. But is 9vac not also used to clock the CIA?
Yes it is. You may easily find if it works by observing cursor blinking on startup screen.
When I solder DIN plugs I always cut away half of the tube you need to put the wire in with a Dremel. So it becomes cup shaped. Way easier to solder this way. Made a video to show this a long time ago.
So basically if I solder a DIN plug to a random 5V USB charger I have a working C64 and I can trash by doorstopper chunk of copper, glue and plastic? Maybe the SID won't work, but I can't like the sound of it, so that is no problem for me. Or does it fail on SID handshake on boot or something like that?
The vast majority of software works without a SID. Some games/demos check for a SID being present though. I'd put in a good replacement (like an ARMSID) and pretty much everything should work with 5V.
what about using a USB C power delivery power bank? inverting from 20V dc to 5V DC & 9V AC?
If the old VIC-II GPU needs 12V but those 12 are derived from the 9 via some sort of little step-up (Where's the transformer?), then why didn't they just make the system use 12VAC in and then use a simple voltage divider to get the 9 where those are needed?
How about 50/60Hz clock generation circuit for CIA chip? 9VAC is also used for Tape motor, I assume this will not work either. 8 bit Atari used 5V only which is cool.
I wasn't sure this was going to work. When I built my PSU I bought a MIDI cable (so I didn't have to solder a DIN) and soldered a USB cable to it. At the time I was using a flimsy desoldered female USB port. The system worked, but there were like 3 games glitching with my U2+ installed. But I was very concerned about the desoldered port shorting out since it was so flimsy. So instead I bought a USB extension cord. The problem got worse because the extension cord wiring wasn't as thick as the cables I used previously. Now everything was glitching. Even BASIC would glitch. The colors were all off when the screen scrolled vertically. If you removed the U2+ the system was fine. So I measured the voltage from the board with the U2+ installed. I got 3.5V LMAO. I'm like how the hell does it work at all? So eventually I got a proper power cable and removed USB from the equation all together. Now I get like 4.9V with the U2+ installed. No glitches. The MIDI cable was certainly a problem, but USB wasn't helping either. Then again maybe the USB cables I was using was just too cheap.
Keep it around 5% on the 5 volt rail. I've never seen 10% in any specs for 5 volt devices, not to say they don't exist. Nice work.
C64 ohne Sound? Naja wenn man es mir als Office PC nutzt 😄. Schönes Video!
Wieso ohne sound? Hast du dir das video angesehen?
@@vectorjoe ja… hatte einen internen Fehler bei der Übersetzung .
😀
HEY @JanBeta! What was the specs of the power bank and how long did the c64c lasted with a game running in the background on a full charged power bank?!
Hey Jan, how long does the battery last? just curious? an hour so?
Lets say powebank capacity is 3500mAh and c64 uses 0,7A its should last about 4hours.
@@3viis Thanks for the answer
This video may kill the aftermarket power supplies for the C64 and VIC-20. Go USB!!
This is such a good idea.
Is there room in the case to build in a battery internally?
It would be interesting to see some kind of circuit as an add-in board to make 9VAC out of the 5V to build into the c64 and ditch the 9VAC PSU requirement altogether.
Maybe a 12v usb c board that has a stepdown converter to 5v and can generate 9v ac or something...
Any electric R/C model with reverse has the "H bridge" DC to AC circuit.
a universal board could be developed with three buck-boost converters to make 5,9,12 volts. then you would be fine to use almost any input voltage.
grüße, hab gerade dein clip gesehn!...geilomat🙂und mit der "kung fu flash" ist das setup für mobile geschichten ideal,oder was denkst du? PS: die swimsid ist bei mir zu leise, das sie nicht funzt.könnte das am usb netzteil liegen?...grüße aus chemniitz, ne schöne restwoche..mach weiterso und danke für deine clips, dude...ohne dich hätte ich viele fehler gemacht..beim atari ste ;-)...
Very cool! Interesting that those cost-reduced VIC-20s still draw nearly 50% more power than a C64, though I suppose that C64 has the benefit of even more cost-reduction.
So if you had a 20000mAh power bank, does that mean it could run for 20 hours @ 1 A? Or is there some catch to those numbers?
Next silly experiment would be to build in some cells into the chassis, and make a rechargeable, wireless C64 :D
Or maybe use the new vic2 replacements with hdmi out and search for a portable, battery powered tft screen with 1amp usb port on it....
Hey would it work with the TYPE S 12V 7.0L Jump Starter Power Bank with USB C Charging
Nice. Although I couldn't hear any sound from the Swinsid in the video !?
The volume was turned down pretty low on the TV while I tried the swinsid so it doesn’t translate very well through my lapel mic. There definitely is sound! :)
And a C16 should also work right? Only has a 9volt in and 7805 5 volt converter?
Awesome work! Can you do the same with a Sinclair Spectrum?
That’s a bit trickier, the older models need a 12V rail for the RAM as well as 5V for the rest of the system if I remember correctly. The original power supply is 9V DC. You would either have to add a 9V converter to the USB power bank or modify the mainboard.
is there a story behind the "lips" sticker on your monitor ? in every episode i kinda think of it (damn aspergers syndrome) :-P i realize it's the last part from a philips sticker..but would be fun to hear if there is a point to it? :-P i remember seeing a synthband who erased a part of the R in Roland on the back of their synths so it said Poland instead of Roland :)
5V DC only supply should make the timers in the CIA-chips fail, because the need the AC flanc for triggering the timers. Some programs needing those timers may fail.
Yup, mentioned that in the video. But I don’t know of any software that fails because of that. Would be interesting to see.
Theoretically a very simple USB-C adapter should be able to provide both voltages. Another micro controller to breathe life into the 64😌
There is no AC in power delivery standards, but the chips may be able to run from 9v dc anyway.
Yes, that’s true. You would still need some extra circuitry to make the AC parts of the system work though. But at least you would probably be able to use an original SID. :)
Swap out the 6502 on the Vic20 and put in a 65C02 on its place. I did this back on the 80s and my Vic20 runs cooler and a bit faster from the mod.
Wie sieht das denn aus mit dem C16? Der macht ja aus den 9V des Netzteils intern 5V, die dann jeder IC bekommt. Sollte doch direkt funktionieren. Oder?
Probier aus und sag im discord von jan bescheid ;-)
@@vectorjoe Das Problem dürfte die Datasette sein, denn die läuft mit 9V wenn ich das richtig im Schaltplan lese und gemessen habe.
@@RadolfDerGelehrte soweit auch von jan aus die aussage im video und im discord. Muss man sich halt fragen ob man sich in zeiten von arduino basierten emulierten datasetten und disklaufwerken noch eine echte datasette geben will.
It works but i use a better battery pack , Good video
Amazing.
Nice, and I cannot power an intel compute stick from batteries and that only needs 5V 2A, yet I could not find a stable voltage regulator (stepdown from 7.4V to 5V).
Why use a linear regulator and not something switching?
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 I did, but the stick reboots randomly, so I disassembled my old powerbank took out the four 18650 batteries and made my own powerbank: USB-C port and stepup to 9V, TP5100 + Battery Balancer board. The Li batteries are: 2 parallel and then in series (gives 7.4V and around 5A) then to the voltage regulator stepdown to 5V. Charging works, I power an LCD (6.5") through the LCD control board and the intel stick is just a z8350 (I want to upgrade it to M36Y30 once it works). Fun thing is that the first test were OK, I did run multiple games on it, like Ori, Dark Souls 1, Dead Space 1 for 10-20 minutes, but now the stick reboots between 1-5 minutes. It could be still not enough Amps, maybe I should limit the stick with Throttlestop, but my guess is on the cheap voltage regulator.
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 Than you for the tips, yes the first thing I changed was the cable and it got stable with a proper wire, but only for a while. I tried multiple voltage regulators but all cheap boards and I only have a VERY basic multimeter (which I do not trust too much), yes the problem must be voltage dips, maybe I will buy a proper voltage regulator from pololu or other.
Interesting experiment and great video! 😊
I've actually done something similar, replacing the 5 V linear regulator in the original power supply with an iPad charger.
Like, actually modified the brick? Or just cut some of the wires and bypassed it?
@@stevethepocket Yes, modified the brick by removing the circuit board to make room for the slightly trimmed down charger.
Looks original from the outside and works great so I'm happy. 😀
@@volvo245glt So is it like this, where it only provides 5V and you need a replacement sound chip? Because I've thought about doing the "rip open a couple wall warts and dump their guts into an empty power brick" thing, but I'd insist on having the 9V AC rail, and wall warts that put out AC don't just spawn in thrift store junk bins like DC ones do.
@@stevethepocket 9vac wall warts while not readily available in a thrift stores are easily obtainable online from electronics/parts resellers, such as Jameco. $10-$11. Easily opened to free their guts and ready to re-brick in no time.
Power Lips TV from power bank :D
do u know much about programming ? i want to write an Amiga emulator for Linux and windows and ubuntu too! thanks.....
Another fantastic video - thanks Jan. You make me want to buy a broken C64 just for fun.
I have already tried something like this with my short board but found when plugged into a wall socket I got rolling noise on the screen. Anyone have any ideas how to get rid of it? I tried 3 wall warts - all noisy to different degrees. I tried adding a 1000uf capacitor - no change.
Set it up in a car with one of those DC DVD screens with video in :)
Awesome.
Unless you use an ARMSID two more things are missing: Support for paddles and mouse!
True!
Next task is to be able to plug it into your car and get the car display to show the output video.
So what you are telling me is, you can install a VIC-20 in a car?
Why don't use a power bank with power delivery and get 9V?
You need the voltage as AC, so you have to build a DC inverter. You can do this by using an EGS002 Board an some parts around this module.
Did you say 9Volts? ..that regulator running the VIC II and SID on a long board has 15V going in, so the voltage to VIC II and SID doesn't "droop"
@@drmr_music the brick has a spool of copper wire on the transformer magnetic core that goes direct into the C=64. The polarity of the current running through the circuit loop charges a cap as if it were a battery, then reverses direction. When reversed, that charge "stacks" on top of another cap, like putting two batteries stacked inside a flashlight body. A rectifier "opens" like a pressure flapper valve and dumps the doubled voltage into another cap feeding 15V into the 7812 voltage regulator. The same "charge pump" voltage multiplier ladder, but with many more cascaded stages, is in those stun wands that make "lightning bolts" from a 9V smoke detector battery.
@@drmr_music "to then immediately rectify that 9V AC back into 9V DC" In the VIC-20, it was just that simple..
What was that game on the c64?
I played Up‘n‘Down, The Bear Essentials and Neutron. :)
Nice! I guess the voltage (which is already DC) for original SID can be provided to add an internal DC-to-DC boost converter. Also, the missing TOD clock of CIAs can be clocked with external circuit providing 50Hz (in case of PAL) instead using of AC (even using an existing crystal oscillator somewhere on the board with the right divided ratio, if that can be easily derived that way). However these would need modifications anyway ... And still, lack of power for datasette and 9VAC on the user port are still issues. That cannot be solved easily. In theory, there can be some boost converter there too, as most devices using AC from C64 will use a rectifier anyway to convert it DC, but that's a dangerous game, also then not exactly the same voltage should be provided in DC and some can assume the voltage drop of a rectifier used by the device, but we cannot know what it uses exactly ... I would say, with a SID replacement, the missing working CIA TODs can be an issue, some software uses that for timing purposes. Probably not so common thing, though.
3:34 …what have the Romans ever done for US?