Brazing Broken Cast Iron: Repairing a Stanley 55 Plane
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Some basics on brazing cast iron using a torch and bronze brazing rod. We will be repairing a broken piece off of a Stanley No. 55 plane that was broken in two.
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Joel Hunger
2014-11-27
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That was a satisfactory job on the brazing but I can't help myself.
I'm not looking to criticize but I wanted to share some of my experience in the hopes that we all learn how to improve our skills. I learned to braze from a master back in the late 90's and he was really good at explaining the science of metal bonding (ionic bonds) and how different materials react to different temperatures and how to apply the torch flame to achieve optimal temps. He taught me that the "secret" to good brazing is to recognize how the materials involved behave and react when your materials and flame temps are in the "green zone".
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I noticed that you had your torch set too cold and you were applying the flame from too far away during the brazing work.
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The torch flame has two parts, the "feather" and the "needle" (as I learned to call them), the feather being the transparent blue long and wide part of the flame and the much hotter short blue-white opaque "needle" in the center.
The needle is the real working part of the flame for the actual brazing part of the work.
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A lot of guys call it a "neutral flame" when the needle is about a quarter inch long and you get more of a "whoosh" sound from the torch and they call it a "carbonizing flame" when a little bit more acetylene is added in to make that needle flare out to about a half inch long and you get more of a "hiss" sound. I would have used the torch as it was set in this video if I were brazing something like copper tubing joints or plumbing joints. For the work in the video, I would go much hotter.
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The feather of a neutral flame is fine for the preheat work but when you do the actual brazing (the part where you actually melt the rod in to the gap), you want to be using the heat projecting directly from the tip of the needle for that. That much hotter part of the flame will more quickly melt the rod and allow it to flow like water in to the gap. If the flow of the metal from the rod looks and feels more like maple syrup or pudding than watery, that's a good indicator that you're too cold or too far away. Most of the time it is best to push the tip of the rod in rather than lay the side of the rod down.
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You don't want the metal parts being bonded to do the melting of the rod, you want the flame to melt the rod. Ensuring that you apply the rod/heat in that manner, you avoid most of the "clumped and humped" metal around the joint and it's much more efficient, makes a stronger bond, and it really cuts down on the clean up part of the job.
When the material on both sides of the gap is sufficiently hot, and you are putting the needle to the rod, that rod metal will naturally flow in and cling to the sides of the gap through capillary action and when your material temps are hot enough, very little flux is necessary. In fact, over fluxing the joint can weaken it if you aren't careful.
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When you set your flame for this type of brazing work, in the future, I'd listen for a little more "hiss" and little less "whoosh". I would have set the needle to be "carbonizing" at about a half inch long, with a sharp point, for the work you were doing and apply the flame to the rod/joint so that the needle tip is about an inch from the rod/joint (much closer than you were applying the flame in the video) with very short, quick, tight sweeps of the flame.
That will get the temps up to where you need them for a "watery" flow and a very strong ionic bond that creates a very clean and efficient joint. It even uses less rod, less flux, and less time.
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As I said, I'm not looking to talk down to anyone, I just hope to make everyone better at the task. Hope this info helps someone. Take it or leave it as you see fit.
Best of luck to all.
+BigRalphSmith That was really helpful, thank you!
+BigRalphSmith Keith is not an expert at everything he does, I have heard him say things along that line several times. However he has a tremendous can do attitude, and I think he is a really great guy for taking the time to post his videos to help the hobbyist learn how to do jobs. That also prompts discussion and comments from genuine experts and tradesman like yourself who add valuable contributions.
iiredeye iiredeye
I love watching Keith do his thing. He's far more knowledgeable and skilled in machining than I will ever be.
He does an admirable job even in those areas where he freely admits a lack of knowledge or experience and any information that I feel might help him out is worth sharing. Not just for his benefit but for anyone who might be able to benefit from the experiences of other tradesmen or craftsmen.
Probably the thing I like most about his stuff is that he's willing to make mistakes and show those mistakes to everyone. That makes all of us better at what we do in the end.
+BigRalphSmith I noticed he used a whole bunch of flux (at least, to my noob eyes it looked like alot). I've seen others use a very small amount. How much flux to you need really? Does it vary depending on the type of metal or do you usually only want a thin coat?
"You don't want the metal parts being bonded to do the melting of the rod, you want the flame to melt the rod." -Don't you melt the rod with the flame with certain rod (like lower melting point rod; i've heard you do for things like copper pipe)? Also, if you are melting the rod with the flame, how do you know how hot the part needs to be if you are melting the rod with the flame? Are you basically looking for the part and the rod to be the same temperature?
Finally, is there a universal "rule" about any technique or do all techniques need to be specific to the metal/rod combo you are working with?
I've just been introduced to brazing and am really excited about not needing to go purchase a full welding setup for the little bit of hobby stuff/home repairs I need it for. Thanks for taking the time to do this write up.
F!@#Guilt
I'll try to give you the best answers I can but I don't claim to be an expert. All I can claim to be is a good, experienced welder (and even that claim is up for debate or challenge because, in the end, that's just my opinion and the opinion of some others I've worked for and with).
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On the question of flux amounts, I find that, if your temperatures are right and your parts are hot enough and you are using the right rods and have the torch set correctly, you will need far less flux than if any of those things are off no matter what material you are joining or rod type you are using.
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On the next question, you learn how the filler metal behaves when your temps are right and when they are wrong.
The metal from the rod will readily flow toward and adhere to the parts if the parts temps are in the zone.
It will glob up like chewing gum when they are too cold.
It will run right past the parts like water if they are too hot.
It's almost like how the surface tension of water works. It's difficult to put in to words.
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The only truly "universal" rule I know of is, eventually, there is no rule that you are never going to need to break on occasion except those that are safety related. Safety rules are genuinely universal. All others, we'd like to think they are but the reality is, not so much.
Brazing, like welding of all other types is as much an art as it is a skill and there's only one way to perfect your skill; experience and practice.
In the end, the more you do it, the better you get.
There's no short cut. Some catch on faster than others. Hope you get the chance to work with a good teacher as I did.
How would it work if you didn't grind anything off, but just coated both surfaces of the break with brazing material, then pressed the break together while heating the joint? Wouldn't that be a cleaner joint, just as strong?
Nice brazing repair Keith! Very informative too.
Would you have any interest in a Miller Syncrowave 250? I know where one is and can probably be bought at a very fair price. Would make a good addition to the Museum. Let me know and I'll get some more info.
Adam
Never having done this before, I am curious how you can apply such heat to do the underside and not melt the work you did on the topside?
In this case, that's called dumb luck :-) If you look closely, you'll see that the bronze he's trying to add to the bottom is flowing right through the seam and building up drips on the (downward facing) top. This is why he had so much trouble building up the 2nd side. It only held together at all, because of the heat-break created by the hole in the casting. This let the other side stay below melting, and hold the joint together.
It is actually possible, with some practice, to heat just the surface that you're working on up to the melting point, get new bronze on top of it, and get back out again before the whole joint turns to liquid. Somewhat counterintuitively, doing this requires running a hot flame and going at it aggressively quickly, so that the working surface melts before the heat has time to permeate the joint. What Keith did - heating the whole thing up slowly - "feels" safer, but actually makes it really hard to control the joint. Until you've practiced a lot, the technique that actually works, "feels" really reckless!
Haven't brazed in 27 years, but I'm still a fan of it. I learned to repair a diesel fuel tank the first time I brazed, did it right the first time.... made me grin from ear to ear :-)
Brazing is good for a lot of things.
What about using a copper backing rather than steel?
when parts comes apart at crack level, an easy way to repair is to clean the fracture fascia without disturbing it, spread a coat of flux on the fascia of the fracture, squeeze parts together and braze with EasyFlo 45, this leaves a small line at the fracture and the brazes part needs almost no touch-up to bring back in service.
I use this technique on mechanical parts with a good success for decades
Easy Flo 45 contains cadmium. There's no way I'm putting that on a hand tool.
Are ceramic blocks available for set up so that you don't have the problem of a metal "heat sink?"
I have some now but I did not when I shot that video. Make do with what you have!
Can't tell you how good it was to hear that intro music again! Glad you're back, Keith!
I own a dreadful cast iron anvil. I have purchased some 1 inch thick medium carbon steel to make a face for it. Do you think that vee-ing out the edges and brazing would work?
+Ric Tester The problem with welding a face to an anvil is that the only part of the plate that will be welded is around the edges, leaving a non-joined surface between the two pieces. Since this is where you will be doing most of your hammering, it tends to cause problems. When a steel face was welded to an anvil commercially, they used a process that welded the entire face to the anvil leaving no dead space. While you could easily braze the top to your anvil, I think that you will be even more disappointed with the end result.
Would you say braising is basically soldering?
sailingsolar Brazing and soldering are very similar processes in that you are using a filler metal that melts at a lower temperature than the material you are joining, but with brazing, you usually have much tighter fitting parts than you would with soldering and the temperatures required to melt the brazing material is much higher than soldering. Also, brazing tends to result in a stronger joint than you would typically get from soldering. One thing that often confuses people is that "silver soldering" is really a brazing process and not soldering!
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Thank you for the reply. I do enjoy you videos, sir.
I like to use the 10% Nickel rod (SifBronze No.2) as it has a wide plastic temperature range and you can build it up quite easily. I used to do quite a lot of tube frame work using that rod and a gasfluxer.
sometimes you need to talk less. and do more brazing or welding. let your actions talk 4 you.
Is there a reason you used a solid piece of steel on the bottom to support the piece, instead of something like box steel that would not act as a heat sink quite as bad. It appeared to take a long time to get the part to the correct temperature.
+Michael Belew That was just what we had. It took a bit more heat, but no problem.
At the risk of being shot down by 'experts', may I add my two penneth? Firstly Keith, I think you were setting yourself up for some grief as soon as I saw how you were about to clamp together and hold the pieces down firmly. Two points here.. If you'd have held down the two pieces with something like a two pronged 'mole' type vice grip.. (sold as welders clamps...) with LIGHT pressure...... and you could have placed the broken edges together nearer the middle of the stiff plate... ( G cramps would do, I know, but are a bigger heatsink aren't they.. a nuisance sometimes when trying to carefully control heat input, as here... And while I'm here, a small piece of 'Astro board', you know, that 'fake asbestos' sheet, that plumbers use to shield wallpaper from scorching, if they use a gas torch to solder a pipe in a house.. that stuff. ...would have stopped the CHILLING EFFECT caused by that thick slab you used. I noticed how quickly the work pieces went cooler very fast.. when you wafted the flame to one side.. the slab was chilling the pieces.. which also meant of course that as the metal got UP to temp' it got to temp' and then OVER heated just as fast, because of the quite 'hard' flame.... You could still have clamped down onto the slab, but with the work on top of the insulating Astro board first.. Heat control would have been MUCH easier, you could have used a much softer, gentler flame.. and so, control would have been a lot easier, I think. Also, you didn't actually need to have them held down by gorilla strength did you, were could they go to? LIGHTLY clamping would allow the work to expand naturally, and then (hopefully) return to the original dimensions... Both pieces nearer the middle of the stiff plate would better I think, ensuring the flat base, (even though in two pieces now), was all on a single plane.. This would ALSO have avoided the need to 'end clamp' each end with one big G cramp.. a major error here I think.. half of the smaller, vulnerable piece was hanging out in fresh air anyway, unsupported.. You were attempting to heat up to glowing red heat, effectively two 'pointy' parts, (because of the hole.). and THIS means that the parts were easily up to and beyond their 'plastic' heat range... As the fairly small joint areas came close to melting, the COOLER chilled bottom edge remained slightly stiffer.. and so the whole thing pivoted up, from the bottom, flat plane. Secondly, as the parts were end clamped, I'd be amazed if they didn't deform and shorten a bit.. ('Upsetting'). Effectively, I believe that you had slightly 'fire welded' them long before you got any brazing filler going. (Like sword making.. heat the lump up, hammer it out, fold in half with a hard strip sandwiched in, heat up again and hammer together to make it one piece, rinse and repeat a few dozen times and bingo, you have a 'springy' sword that won't snap in two went flexed.. with a lovely grain structure, that will take a sharpened edge) Anyway... I'd put a fiver on it that the hole needed a bit of a rat tail file though it to extend the hole back out towards the end, in order to get the screw back in to meet the opposite side, if needed.. . Finally, a couple of points... 1, Russell Withrow is quite right, flux has nothing to do with temp' or fitment.. it's virtually impossible to use too much, especially when learning, get plenty of coverage with flux.. and KEEP dabbing the rod into the flux can.. to keep the rod well covered all the time.. It saves a world of hurt, technically.. An oxidised rod end.. and parent metal, with muck and soot everywhere, leads to fizzing and porosity, a crappy looking WEAKENED brazement... and is a 'bad thing'.. ...All the flux chips off as glass anyway... or flips itself off as it cools, if a smooth braze... so where's the harm? Trying to be clever and using a bare minimum is fraught with headaches, in all sorts of ways. Finally, and this is worth understanding... never, ever, fall for that old rubbish about "rough it up a bit with a bastard file to give the braze something to hold on to".. ...Brazing metal is not like gluing wood, or rendering a wall.. 'Brazing' is simply soldering. Yes we give it it's own word, but it's only soldering. It is HARD soldering, as opposed to the soft soldering that a plumber might do.. But all the 'rules' of soldering still apply.. start with clean hands, clean work metal, on a clean worktop.. and your life will go a damned sight easier and with less struggle and 'fixing' of your work later.. If you can, try to SMOOTH the surface.. not roughen it. Any tiny 'peaks' on the surface will easily overheat and 'FIZZ' the hard solder (braze) away.. Do not take my word for this... You can VERY EASILY prove this for yourself. .....Get set up for brazing.. and choose something thin, that has an edge, or a point.. and deliberately (but slowly, so you can see what's going on..) overheat the metal with the torch, before you touch the rod on it .. You will see the rod flow as it should do... on the thicker, cooler parts, BUT.. at the pointy tip.. or at the 'raw edges' of the metal, where the heat builds up fast... the brazing rod metal will be rejected.. It will 'FIZZ' at you and do all it can to get itself away from the "too hot" metal edges or the pointy bit... (No matter HOW much flux you try to use.).. THEN, try it again with a smoothly surfaced piece of metal.. finely filed, or emery finished.. even polished, if you like smoother the better... if you can ensure it's perfectly clean (as ALL soldering should be, hard or soft).. then as you offer the rod to a 'just nicely ready' heated metal, the brazing metal will rush all over where there is a fluxed surface. Like it's a lost boy running to mummy... :-) Ok, rant over. I did like your video Keith, cast iron can be a swine... but it can be made to behave itself a bit better.
Would Mapp gas be hot enough to do this?
You could probably do it, but it would take a LONG time to get the metal hot enough. You really need a good torch setup.
Great set-up! Wouldn’t Sta-Silv or Safety-Silv have worked in this case?
There would have been less removal of the parent metal necessary and less filler rod used as well. There would have been a stronger repair as well!
keith you awesome. your using what you have it works keep up the good work
+Brandon McConnell Thanks Brandon!
manuel ibarra from mexico
wen you braze cast iron this way after you braze do you still have to keep it hot so doesnt crack?
thank you very good video
+Mic Ibarra It is best to let it cool down slowly, but this is probably more important on larger pieces with a lot of mass than something small like this part.
I find brazing works a lot better for me as well. I have used ni- 99 some times it works. other times well you all know the sound that no one wants to here. So i favor brazing over welding. Maybe a tig might work or a mig , I stand with Keith on brazing cast iron. Just saying. Nice job Keith, Also thanks for showing.
hey Keith, I just did my first brazing repair on cast iron and thanks to your video it turned out great. luckily I remembered watching this video and when the job came up I was able to pull it up on my phone and work along a great teacher. thanks
+Dj C I am glad that you had great success! Thanks for watching!
manuel ibarra guanajuato mexico
hello very good all your videos i see them all the time in mexico they help me a lot i have a question
is ther some code how to know how much to charge in a welding chop? is chasrge by the hour or day
is anyone who has any idea maybe it s a silly question but if you guys do a video it may help many people not to charge more or less thanks i hope one day someone make the video gracias asta la vista
+Mic Ibarra I think that how people price work varies depending on the person. I for one do not do much work for the public - most of what I do is work for the museum where I volunteer at so I am not the best person to answer this question
thank you for taking the time
to read my message and forgive mi inglish im using electronic translator
I use to do a lot of exhaust manifold repair / cracked / broken , missing parts .
I knew about the specialized process of preheating - welding with nickel - and slow cooling in oven [ the main thing I found was that preheating & slow cooling was to keep the cast iron from heat-stress-cracking , heating too fast and especially cooling off too fast .
What I found that worked very well , using mig welding with standard steel wire and adjusting the power to keep from heating up the base / part - putting most of the heat in the wire [ which means welding very fast ] as soon as the welding done [ on big jobs - long time with welder , do the welding in short steps ] then through insulating blanket over work - too cool slow '
Fast cooling with lots of heat in piece would get very fine & many heat stress cracks .
Many of these manifolds came back months or years late when other areas did the same and the 1st repair was still good .
Sometimes just trying to do what we are told we can not do is rewarding ;)
Just jokingly my question is: Do you own enough ladders?
hawkdaddy64 LOL - a couple of other guys have commented similar in the past. Truth is, most of my videos are shot out at the museum where I volunteer at and the machine shop is in the Maintenance and Restoration shop. So, yes, they have quite a few ladders of different heights that get used at the museum and the 100 acre historic village. And they all get used..... Regularly.....
Big Ralph, I appreciated your additional notes. I tried a similar project and took both yours and Keith's advice from his video. Thanks to you both. Francisco, exactly what point are you trying to make other than to make yourself look stupid? BR is just adding (in a very gentlemanly way) some insight. We can all learn from each other, and I for one very much appreciate that this opportunity and these guys take the time that they do to explain and demonstrate their craft. Rather than being critical perhaps add constructively to the conversation. Should you choose otherwise, or rather, be unable to do so, then I would respectfully ask that you go elsewhere with the negative comments, this area is for the "grown ups". Regards gentlemen.
If he sends you any pictures of the finished product will you be sharing them with us? You cant just leave us hanging Keith!
Hey Keith,
Nice repair and great tutorial on welding cast iron!
Thanks for sharing!
Ray
Keith,
Great intro to brazing. I am just getting ready for a project. I need to repair the ornate cast iron legs for a 1890 ish foot treadle powered wood lathe. I also have to repair the hand wheel that adjusts the machine.
Two questions, could you use a fire brick instead of the block of steel for support? It should hold up a well but not have such a heat sink effect. Second, I have been told that as soon as you finish the brazing, bury the piece in a pile of sand to slow the cooling and keep the heat and shrinkage even, does that work?
Thanks
Tony
Port Hadlock, WA
i wish that part didnt move, now we will never know why you prefer dipped vs filled flux
+smellycat249 I expect that manually applying flux gives you more control over how much you can get in the joint...
Pre-mixed flux in a filled brazing rod means that you have what the factory decided is the optimum ratio of flux to braze metal - what happens if the iron base metal is of a different alloy than what they designed for? A little dirt, leftover foundry sand, or who knows what, especially in older parts can make you need more flux than that theoretical ideal...
There's a special jig i use... it's called threaded block and some hold down bolts. You guys are great. I'm not really a ball buster. At least that's what my friends would say, if I had any.
Hey Keith. Another great video. I am always sure to learn something from your videos. Thanks for the effort. Can I ask what the name of the flux you use is? I looked through the comments and didn't see it mentioned anywhere. Thanks
M'lady somehow, without my head being involved, broke off the handle of a cast iron pan.
I'm wondering how many hours it would take to heat up the parts to the orange glow using Map Pro gas???
I DO have oxy-acetylene available, but to be quite frank, it scares me - fire/explosion type scare. So it just occupies space in my dining area (I've no garage, and no outside storage shed, and I don't think that the HOA commandos or my insurance company would be happy to see the tanks in my small patio). I feel
safer with a Bernzomatic piezo trigger on a Propane or Map Pro gas cylinder.
The big problem with those planes these days, is finding straight grained wood to use them on.
We got some knowledgeable commenters here. This was cool.
Learning a lot from both sides. Why didn't i use you tube when I was younger? 40 years ago.
why not brazing paste? brush and flux busted edge, paint on brazing paste, wire/clamp to position. heat, tighten clamps when fluid, let cool. no need for notching or grooving, perfect alignment, and stronger than a stick joint usually. H&R used it for the hinge/lock blacks on single barrel shotgun barrels, (you can see the line of braze in the blue job), so it really can't be "weak"... probably would have been just the ticket for that sleeve repair in the loco cylinder head too. i can dig that some jobs just don't lend themselves to such materials, but those "on the bench, at my leisure" type ones seem to cry out for its use
Good video. Can I do it with propane? I've used cutting propane in my cutting torches for almost twenty years. I have two vises that need repaired. I figured build a big fire outside and prep vise for crack repair, gently lay vise into hot coals for a while, then heat up even more on bench with torch, braze it, and bury quickly in the kid's sandbox. One vise body is cracked, cheap "great neck"brand, another is huge old Oswego brand. Oswego pin holes for the jaw pad are busted out so need to build up some material and redo I re drill two holes. I'm propane only here. Is it possible?
It would be stronger if you 'tinned' the unmodified surfaces with the rod, then re-flux and bring them together while hot on a flat ceramic surface (doesn't absorb the heat). The thinner the uniting metal, the stronger the joint. No need to grind out a 'vee', that only weakens the repair.... Brazing is soldering, just using brass or bronze instead of tin/lead, and at a higher temperature, but the principles are exactly the same....
I have a cast iron table saw bracket that I was going to try and weld but I think now I try and braze it instead? How you didn't drop an "F" bomb when the part slipped out of the clamp shows that you are not only a more skilled craftsman than be but have a much better temperament...Damn I dropped the "F" just watching the vajayo! Nice job!!!!!
Cast iron is more than tricky...so much carbon and its unevenly disbursed. Preheat is critical.
Im a retired welder over 35 years, and you are right you can't just use hard wire in a mig or 7018 that's a no , you wanna use brazing rods , nickel rods , SS cast iron rods etc. There's quite a few , the reason cast iron is so hard to deal with is the stretching and bending is only at a 2 to 4 percent when applying heat to it , unlike mild steel has a 50 or better stretching, bending warping point , not to mention cast is dirty anyway .....but warm the cast up pretty good before welding the crack , just let it flow slowly , lot of people try to get in a hurry with cast and it just want happen , patience is key when welding cast ....clean the area and bevel the area clamp it down good cause it will warp ....
Like with a good book or movie, you have to grab your audiences attention within the first minute, otherwise you lose their interest. In the case of this video, it would be better if you talked more While you are brazing. Or spend time talking after brazing. People’s attention span is very limited. Nice brazing though. Well done, sir.
Very nice video... BUT had like to see the job finished, ready for deliver back to the costumer as ONE finish grinded part, ready to reinstall.
Sounds like you are opening a bag of potato chips when you're brazing:)
silver brazing would be much easier imo.
Thanks for doing this vid. Very useful for us noobs not experienced in this type metal joinery.
+F!@#Guilt My pleasure!
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Hello, Just wanted to say I really like silver soldering for stuff like that.
Hey Keith (or anyone else that is knowledgeable), regarding the flux you are using. Are you just dipping the rod into the dry crystals or did you mix the flux with water first? Thanks!
Nice job Keith! I have done lots of cast repairs with very good success. You are correct! Getting good at brazing is a lot like getting to Carnegie Hall, practice practice practice!
What is the difference between TIG and MIG welding? Which is better for someone just starting out?
Very cool and informative video. Thank you
Keith,
Nice job of brazing. Like you, I prefer to add the flux to the rod. The prefluxed rods are sort of fragile. It doesn't take much of a bump to knock off the flux. I did a lot of gas welding and brazing back in the early '60s when I was a lad. I couldn't arc weld to save my soul! The nice thing about gas welding is you can reflow your errors and no one's the wiser! Thanks for the great video. With spring coming on, I would imagine you will be down at the museum more and complete the Vance planer-matcher. I look forward to that and other restoration projects!
Have a good one!
Dave
Keith,
So you were brazenly brazing with a brazen rod... ;^)
All the Best,
Eric
Is there a brazing rod you can buy that will actually match the color or is it possible to weld the cast iron. I have a Stanley Bailey 5 1/2 type 13 that I want to repair but I was hoping there was a way you could do it without seeing were it was repaired
I owne a Stanley 45 but brazing will destroy the integrity of the cast Iron because you can't threat the molecular identity of the product
Excellent job!! This is just the way our instructor taught us back in the 60's. And also, the way an old railroad blacksmith, back in the 70's, built up the teeth on an old obsolete hand brake gear . Building up bronze takes a delicate skill of balancing the heat. If you have too much heat on one side, the bronze will sag and run off the other side. You have to have the right temp as you fill in the gap, or it will just run out. If more heat had of been used, as some suggest, it wouldn't have worked. This video shows the correct way to braze.
Thanks Ronnie - I know that you are correct because I have melted a lot of braze out trying to hurry things up.....
@@VintageMachinery Hey Keith (or anyone else that is knowledgeable), regarding the flux you are using. Are you just dipping the rod into the dry crystals or did you mix the flux with water first? Thanks!
That has been my experience, I would melt the first brazing and the piece would fall apart. I have a piece of old farm machinery that I am going to try to fix. Have not brazed in years.
can you braze cast iron with portable mini mapp gas canister and filler rod or do you need heavy equipment? Thanks
Hi Keith,
With all the kind of brazing materials that exist, you can join just about anything to what ever, beyond that, there is always Crazy Glue... lol
Pierre
you can't put a few small tacks on with a tig and then V out the opposite site so you don't have to clamp it? when you V out for the other side the tacks with be ground out
I think you use too much heat when you are brazing I use a very small torch on small things to be brazed or should I say a torch to match the piece that is being brazed. Bill Tomkinson
Enjoyed...great discussion/instruction....I did my first CI repair the other day using Tig, very small part and I will say it was very easy to control the application of the filler metal/heat
You are very skilled ! Nice work sir.
+GTR MAN Thank you!
are you sure this is brazing welding!!!!! your welding is very bad
When it comes to cast iron, I almost always go with brazing as opposed to welding with nickle. That said, I have a cast iron griddle with a crack in it. I was just wondering if brass would be safe to use for cooking? Should I use the nickle rod?
+Sam King I am not aware of any problems with cooking with brass or bronze.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Ok, thank you!
What kind of torch/gas and what settings? Also, what kind of rod and flux? Thanks
Oh, I can just hear the welding pros chomping at the bit. Ha! No offense to them, of course, because they ARE pros. I had considered posting a video on brazing small parts like this with a propane torch, but after seeing others get "flamed" by real welders, I opted out. Nice job on these. I could almost hear you curse trying to firm up the corners on that long piece. Been there, done that. You let some heat out and did better than me for sure. A couple years ago, that would have ended up looking like a golf ball on a stick if I did it. 10 min of "brazing" and 6 hrs of grinding. HA! But I am getting a little better each time. And a big part of why is watching folks like you do it. I can sure attest to the strength of a good braze job. Due to my lack of proper welding equipment, it was my only option for years. My go-to phrase was(ok...is), "it ain't pretty, but it'll hold". But they're getting less ugly every time. This was a double treat as I'm in to old tools and have a couple of 45s. Thanks for the video. Well done, Sir.
*****
Practice is sure a lot more productive when you have videos like this to show what right looks like. It turbocharges the rate of improvement. Thanks again. I truly appreciate what you do and the effort you put into it.
Very good vid, I prefer the torch over Tig,
Old school.
skip to 10:05 for action
Gotta remind myself to check the comments before watching how-to videos.
Couple clarifications, what you are doing is braze welding, not brazing. Brazing is lap joints and capillary action wicking the brazing alloy between the parts, where as braze welding uses built up material for strength. The filler rod you are using is brass, not bronze. Bronze is copper alloyed with tin, silicon, phos, etc, whereas brass is a copper/zinc alloy. For the technique, I am sorry but you were way off the mark. When braze welding cast irons, you tin with an oxidizing flame and not much flux to avoid flux inclusions. Once tinned you can go neutral and build up the material usually with no additional flux needed.. You will find you get much better adhesion of the material, and a much cleaner job with a lot less risk of ruining a part.
I thought welding was melting the main metal together not capillary action
Excellent. I love brazing. Many thanks, Keith.
The long areas with no narration kept putting me to sleep. Ron W4BIN
Kris Nicholson suggested that the flame is too "big." I don't know what too big means. The terms that I have seen, heard and use are neutral, oxidizing and carborizing (or carbonizing?), with equal amounts of fuel and oxygen, excess oxygen and excess fuel respectively. Let me hasten to add that you are not the only person I have listened to today that has completely omitted any discussion of the flame and the reasons for why a certain flame is being used. It seems like someone claiming a reputation of "good" success, such as yourself, would launch in to that topic as soon as the torch is ignited. I agree with Kris Nicholson that the "notch" that you provided is excessive. I would have done the notch by hand to avoid removing that large volume of Cast Iron. The brazing joint should be thin and follow the contour of the grain structure, which will provide much larger surface area than a smooth v. I didn't hear whether you have any feedback from your customer to know if the part actually did work and last a long time, so can't speak to how much the things I just mentioned affected function or longevity of the finished part. I will continue to listen to things you have to say, but think the flame "setup" (which you said in the video, "...if the torch setup is correct...") is an important part of the instruction.
+James Buchanin I think you make a good point on the fact that more discussion is needed on how to properly setup the flame. One thing that I find challenging is that the way the flame looks on camera is different than what it looks like to the naked eye - the camera seems to make it look bigger than what I see when I am doing the job. As to notching out the part, that is the way I was taught and it has worked well for me. I like to have plenty of bronze in the joint rather than just a thin layer - thin layers tend to fail more than when you notch it out pretty big - at least for me. I have not heard back from this particular viewer of any problems he has had so I can only assume that it is holding up fine. I have done a lot of brazing over the years and I am proud to say that I have had very few parts that failed. Also, doing a lot of restoration work, I see a lot of machines that have had brazing jobs done sometime in the past and in nearly every case, they are still holding up just fine. Brazing is a good way to repair cast iron!
Keith
I'm glad to see your back at it. Keep up the good work, PS Braydon says Hello Mr Keith
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge I learn something new every time I watch your work
Nice video giving that old plane a new lease on life! Glad to see you back Keith, I can't wait for the freezing weather to be over here so i can get back to pouring concrete on my shop.
Nicely done, sir. The perfect application for a braze repair.
To cool a brazed part slowly, try burying it in silica sand or powdered limestone.
I do agree with some that it appeared to me that you used to much heat.( A neutral flame yields higher strength) A good tip is that the filler metal follows the heat.
The accetilyn was strong pressure.
Howdy! Thanks for the video. Like you, I learned to braze in a high school metal shop class. My teacher was a stickler for technique and brazing was his specialty. When I see brazing videos on the Internet (like this one) I think to myself 'Mr. Grizwald would have failed them on technique and appearance!' We had to heat the joint so the brazing rod could melt and flow into the joint without the torch on it. And 1/8" over coverage is all we were allowed. I haven't tried brazing since then (1984) because I use to think of it as a hassle. But after seeing you and many other 'pros' on the Internet demonstrating your 'awful' brazing techniques it gives me hope that a mere mortal such as myself may be able to pull off a successful braze job in a pinch. Thanks for the inspiration and education.
With a small flame is best when brazing small metal on bigger items use large flame
Well demonstrated and explained. Thank you.
Just what I needed! Very informative right before I start brazing back a broken bearing seat. 🤞 my MAPP gas setup will be hot enough to do the job. I don’t currently own oxy unfortunately.
Greg
I used to braze for a living. This was painful to watch. 50% and Sta-silv so easy.
Not strong enough for this application. I braze for a living 25 yrs now and use stay silv and 50% at least 2 times a week. Its for refrigeration piping, not a thich piece like this
Brazing fun-0-one! Thanks Keith! :o]
O,,,
Thanks for this keith - helped me out of a tight spot on a repair I was doing yesterday :)
+Adrian Hamilton My pleasure! I am glad you found it helpful!
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org I've also just bought a better torch as a result of your tutorial - I realised a lot of the trouble I was having was down to lack of temperature...!
Mucho tiempo calentando la pieza
its good to see you and mr fenner reviving the art of brazing
i used to braze a lot on cars till the changed the laws here in the
uk
cant use it on car body work like floors and inner wings
Just curious, - why can't you braze car parts in the UK now?.
I tried to take a drink every time you said "Uhhhh."
I died.
Agree with everything you said. Just wanted to add I have done some TIG on small items using Aluminum Bronze rod with good results. TIG - AC due to the Aluminum and clean, very clean!
I have never brazed any type of cast metal before only brass and iron. My questions to you are: Why did you use a yellow/orange flame not blue? I hold the flam about an inch away is that too close? What type of gas did you use (acetylene gas)? What type or brand of flux (is there different flux for different metals)? Thank you for any assistance you are able to provide.
Thanks for yet another nice video. Ive watched some videos of jewlery makers and they put flux first on the surfaces to be braced and then puts a litte piece of brace rod that gets sucked into the crack when heated. Is that not a viable method on cast iron or why do one do it they way you do in this video?
As far as im aware, and this is more or less little tidbits ive picked up from welding class, but if you're going to braze something cast iron....Be sure it's not something that gets hotter then the braze, i.e a cast iron skillet or a cast iron wood stove etc. Welding cast iron is also difficult in the ways of you could easily either make the crack large or much worse or the whole thing could simply just fall apart. From what i hear.... but then again im getting my cert in FCAW and 7018 so....
I try to heat the difficult parts first and the easy parts tend to take care of themselves. I guess you cannot get the steel block too hot without brazing your work to it as well, ROFL. I haven’t tried this on a firebrick or a nest of firebrick (to limit radiation and convection losses), but I have seen videos. Hmmm, a tunnel of firebrick with a space to braze comfortably might work. I like fluxing the rod too.
Nice job!
i want to find a mentor in missisauga ontario canada to teach me how to build vintage steel frames??
+Awawwaa Wawaaw What type or kind of vintage frames ?
Er macht immer wieder den gleichen Fehler: Das Flussmittel muss VOR dem Erhitzen auf die Hartlötstelle !
nicely done ,,,tomorrow i will give it ago ,,,
Weird! I hear the intro music but no dialog. After trying several fixes -- no joy -- sound suddenly started working again while watching another video. Go figure!
If memory serves me correct, if you had access to TIG, you could TIG braze the pieces using ERCuSi-A Silicon Bronze rod. It would require preheating to 600° and controlled cooling but might offer less contraction stress than welding. Just a thought.
Thank you for sharing the knowledge sir! It would have been nice to see the finish product, a side by side comparison, before and after would have been really nice, heck, I wouldn’t mind watching you grind those suckers down. I learn faster by watching, that’s all. Thank you again!
I'm not an expert, but I did my share of brazing. I used to braze in patch panels before I got a Mig setup. Did my share of stick welding cast iron too with mixed results. I found brazing to be the most successful way to repair cast iron especially if the results don't have to be aesthetically original looking. I used both bare rod and flux coated and find the flux coated easier to work with. Matter of preference, you need to do it a while before you figure out what you like better. I can gas weld, stick weld, mig and tig weld, but find as technology advances you go with it. Never gas weld anymore, a little stick, mostly Mig and Tig.
Try a fine fire brick that is somewhat square and flat for retaining under heat, maybe diamond wheel cut some vee cuts for round work. Great job I think..takes me back to my machine building days ..some with commercial aviation ...tolerances so tight you could scale the prints!
That looks like the same flux I've used for years. How do you keep it from crystallizing out of the welded area forever? I've washed it, wire brushed it, painted it, the part always develops a white residue.
I wonder if silver solder would be better or worse than the bronze.
They talk a lot about the merits of nickel for repairing cast iron. I wonder if nickel would be superior to the bronze. I also wonder what they mean by "nickel". Are they talking about pure nickel or is it some kind of nickel-iron alloy.