The way that you explain things and demonstrate with an illustration makes things so clear. I very much enjoy your videos and am purchasing your book on black and white developing. Thank you.
I love this guy He’s taught me everything I know about photography and development. Tell me again John why doesn’t a 100watt bulb work well in a dark room? wait I think the bulbs gone , shit where’s the light switch? Help I’m seriously claustrophobic, need to eat more carrots or get night vision goggles! that’s it me boy ! Eureka
Could you not do just one stop below and one stop above exposures on the film? This should be exposures like iso 25 and iso 100 or have I done an error thinking so?
I'm trying to show people what to look for here. You could bracket, of course, but if you don't know what good shadows look like you'll be shooting in the dark :)
@@PictorialPlanet but now it is not so clear why you arrive at 25 or 32 iso. If you bracket the same scene and find one of them has the desired level in the shadow on the contact sheet with 6x 3 sec exposure this would allow you then to have a basis to determine your speed ifor the film developer combination you use?
John, I couldn’t find anything in the video or comments about how you metered for this test. Can you share that information? Thanks for sharing this simple system.
Thanks for another great episode John! While the focus is on obtaining a quick working film speed assessment, your very clear explanation of why it is important to keep the shadows "out of the toe" and up on the straight line portion for the best tonal separation is great. What developer are you using for these tests?
Thanks, Jeff. I'm using a Crawley developer (D76 type). I'm deliberately not saying which so people can see how you would do this with their own favourite.
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks John. I was actually just curious what it might be given your appreciation of FX-15 for PAN F+, and I completely agree that the inclusion of developer choice would be a distraction from the main message you skillfully presented. I admit that I am now a bit surprised that the EI ended up where it did given the speed enhancing characteristics usually touted for FX-4 (even though that is in relation to D-76 and we don't know what EI D-76 might have delivered). Purely an academic thought and I do not want to blur your key message: it is quite easy to determine the best EI and development time that suits your materials, technique and photographic vision. Well done sir!
@ 5:45 I heard mentioning Bruce's method that I commented on in a different video, it happened here ( and in the other accurate test of the box speed video of ISA 125 if I remember correctly) that your actual box speed (ISA 25) was one stop slower than manufacturer box speed ( ISA 50), and we know zone 4 is one stop above zone 3, so they match , what if your actual film speed turned 1/3 slower ( or for that matter faster) and not full stop, if your methodology is followed and you expose to shadows reflective and close down 2 stops that will not put you in zone 4, rather you will be on the toes of the curve. I think Bruce's method relying on the amount of light coming to the film to set the "exposure" of shadows in zone 4 is more accurate than fiddling with true ISA of film, then all you have to do is shoot box speed expose shadows to zone 4 ( reflective measure of shadow and close one stop and not 2) and develop / print to zone 3. I saw video 3 and the printed image is breathtaking, but here it happened that it was the same difference ( ISA one stop slower, zone 4 is one stop higher than 3, they match)
Thank you John, very helpful information. I have a question about the zone system, if we applied the rule of exposing for the shadows and develop for the highlights, in such a case can we develop in semi stand development instead of normal development N-1?
Good question! Yes, in fact Sherman did a lot of work in this area with his extreme minimal agitation technique. He obtains from N-4 right up to N+4 with pyrocat hd using just three agitations over a long period of time.
Hi from London! Can you please clarify the time increments you used, did you use 1sec increments except the last one which was 3sec (3x1sec) or are they all 3sec increments? I struggle with calculating the final time, you are saying do not just set the timer to 18sec, use 3x6 - which is 18. I have seen the other video which you are mentioning here with the more accurate process, are you referring to those 18sec in that video, and that this test strip here consequently have the same end result of 18sec? Many thanks agin for great content, love seeing when you are outside the darkroom sometimes.
I used 3 second increments. I started just moving my card on the test strip each 3 seconds but got nowhere near black so then did 3x3 second exposures on the first step and then 3 second increments each extra strip.
To answer your second point, I set the enlarger up exactly the same way each time I do a contact print so it makes sense that, as long as film base plus fog (FB+F) is similar I'll get the same length of time. However, I never assume it's the same with a new film/developer as the FB+F might be different.
@@lensman5762 I will watch the coming episodes, but what you said confused me, you nail the shot in the camera not in post, please correct me if I was wrong, I know the white no detail on most films is 2 stops and a third from 18% grey diffused value ( proper exposure) and black no detail is 4 stops and a third from the diffused value, if you blow highlights to no detail you will not recover it with adjusting development time, blown is blown .
@@photozen8398 I really don't know where you have got all your ideas from? Perhaps it is best to watch the next episodes first. But to clarify, the proper dev times come from determining the correct exposure for your film, devloper, shutter etc, first. It is within this framework that the zone system works, and not any nilli willy exopsure or dev times. From mid grey ( zone 5 ), zone 2 is the threshold of detectable shadow detail. Zone 8 is the highest value of white with detail and texture. You adjust the dev times to make sure that the highlights are controlled, or vice versa high mid tones are expanded. It is really quite simple once you understand what is going on.
The way that you explain things and demonstrate with an illustration makes things so clear. I very much enjoy your videos and am purchasing your book on black and white developing. Thank you.
Thank you!
Great to see you John !
Hi Oz!
I love this guy
He’s taught me everything I know about photography and development.
Tell me again John why doesn’t a 100watt bulb work well in a dark room? wait I think the bulbs gone , shit where’s the light switch? Help I’m seriously claustrophobic, need to eat more carrots or get night vision goggles! that’s it me boy ! Eureka
Thank you for the video!
My pleasure!
Great discussion. I use to do this all the time, it comes from Fred Picker.
Great video, some much clear information. Would like to have seen the shadows on a ISO 25 contact sheet. Thanks for posting.
Cant wait for the next episode :D
Great!
Another fine video, I'm going to try this tomorrow as I've just developed a roll of fp4 this afternoon.
Great!
Superb as always John, which developer did you use?
I spill the beans in part 3 :)
Could you not do just one stop below and one stop above exposures on the film?
This should be exposures like iso 25 and iso 100 or have I done an error thinking so?
I'm trying to show people what to look for here. You could bracket, of course, but if you don't know what good shadows look like you'll be shooting in the dark :)
@@PictorialPlanet but now it is not so clear why you arrive at 25 or 32 iso. If you bracket the same scene and find one of them has the desired level in the shadow on the contact sheet with 6x 3 sec exposure this would allow you then to have a basis to determine your speed ifor the film developer combination you use?
John, I couldn’t find anything in the video or comments about how you metered for this test. Can you share that information? Thanks for sharing this simple system.
I metered the shadows and placed them in zone 3.
Thanks for another great episode John! While the focus is on obtaining a quick working film speed assessment, your very clear explanation of why it is important to keep the shadows "out of the toe" and up on the straight line portion for the best tonal separation is great. What developer are you using for these tests?
Thanks, Jeff. I'm using a Crawley developer (D76 type). I'm deliberately not saying which so people can see how you would do this with their own favourite.
So, in part three I've revealed the developer. It's Crawley's FX4. Hope that helps.
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks John. I was actually just curious what it might be given your appreciation of FX-15 for PAN F+, and I completely agree that the inclusion of developer choice would be a distraction from the main message you skillfully presented. I admit that I am now a bit surprised that the EI ended up where it did given the speed enhancing characteristics usually touted for FX-4 (even though that is in relation to D-76 and we don't know what EI D-76 might have delivered). Purely an academic thought and I do not want to blur your key message: it is quite easy to determine the best EI and development time that suits your materials, technique and photographic vision. Well done sir!
@ 5:45 I heard mentioning Bruce's method that I commented on in a different video, it happened here ( and in the other accurate test of the box speed video of ISA 125 if I remember correctly) that your actual box speed (ISA 25) was one stop slower than manufacturer box speed ( ISA 50), and we know zone 4 is one stop above zone 3, so they match , what if your actual film speed turned 1/3 slower ( or for that matter faster) and not full stop, if your methodology is followed and you expose to shadows reflective and close down 2 stops that will not put you in zone 4, rather you will be on the toes of the curve.
I think Bruce's method relying on the amount of light coming to the film to set the "exposure" of shadows in zone 4 is more accurate than fiddling with true ISA of film, then all you have to do is shoot box speed expose shadows to zone 4 ( reflective measure of shadow and close one stop and not 2) and develop / print to zone 3.
I saw video 3 and the printed image is breathtaking, but here it happened that it was the same difference ( ISA one stop slower, zone 4 is one stop higher than 3, they match)
Thank you John, very helpful information.
I have a question about the zone system, if we applied the rule of exposing for the shadows and develop for the highlights, in such a case can we develop in semi stand development instead of normal development N-1?
Good question! Yes, in fact Sherman did a lot of work in this area with his extreme minimal agitation technique. He obtains from N-4 right up to N+4 with pyrocat hd using just three agitations over a long period of time.
Which videos did you discuss accurately getting the film/developer speed for the zone system, as you mentioned at the start of the video?
Added to the description now, thanks for the comment.
Hi from London! Can you please clarify the time increments you used, did you use 1sec increments except the last one which was 3sec (3x1sec) or are they all 3sec increments? I struggle with calculating the final time, you are saying do not just set the timer to 18sec, use 3x6 - which is 18. I have seen the other video which you are mentioning here with the more accurate process, are you referring to those 18sec in that video, and that this test strip here consequently have the same end result of 18sec? Many thanks agin for great content, love seeing when you are outside the darkroom sometimes.
I used 3 second increments. I started just moving my card on the test strip each 3 seconds but got nowhere near black so then did 3x3 second exposures on the first step and then 3 second increments each extra strip.
To answer your second point, I set the enlarger up exactly the same way each time I do a contact print so it makes sense that, as long as film base plus fog (FB+F) is similar I'll get the same length of time. However, I never assume it's the same with a new film/developer as the FB+F might be different.
when you increase your shadows by one stop what about your highlights? Isn't it closer to blow the highlights from 18% grey than crushing shadows?
Just reduce the development time by 15~20%.
Watch the next episode
@@PictorialPlanet I am tuned in…Thx.
@@lensman5762 I will watch the coming episodes, but what you said confused me, you nail the shot in the camera not in post, please correct me if I was wrong, I know the white no detail on most films is 2 stops and a third from 18% grey diffused value ( proper exposure) and black no detail is 4 stops and a third from the diffused value, if you blow highlights to no detail you will not recover it with adjusting development time, blown is blown .
@@photozen8398 I really don't know where you have got all your ideas from? Perhaps it is best to watch the next episodes first. But to clarify, the proper dev times come from determining the correct exposure for your film, devloper, shutter etc, first. It is within this framework that the zone system works, and not any nilli willy exopsure or dev times. From mid grey ( zone 5 ), zone 2 is the threshold of detectable shadow detail. Zone 8 is the highest value of white with detail and texture. You adjust the dev times to make sure that the highlights are controlled, or vice versa high mid tones are expanded. It is really quite simple once you understand what is going on.
So are you saying that instead of setting the timer to 18 seconds that you kept it at 3 seconds at exposed it 6 times at three seconds?
Correct.