APS-C vs FF cameras - What’s the impact on Helios swirls of crop vs full frame sensors?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- A number of people have asked me to do a video on this subject...so here it is!
Please also take a look at my other video on how different Helios 44-series lenses swirl....
• Helios Swirls - A look... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I actually bought a used Sony A7ii full frame camera after getting my first Helios 44 because I wanted to see the difference. Had this video come out earlier I might not have bought a full frame camera at all!
Very informative
Fun fact: the Helios 44-2 covers the sensor of my Hasselblad X1D, and the swirly bokeh is astonishing and extremely pronounced
Yet another fascinating analysis that has me heading off to eBay ... again!
It won't be to many more video until we will need to start a support group!
😂
Im using speedbooster with my crop for vintage lenses. And it works like ff. Thanks for another good video!
The Lens Turbo is a focal reducer so it will let you see the entire uncropped image on your sensor, meaning that the outer edge swirl will still be there, making the effect more pronounced.
In this regard the Lens Turbo/Helios delivers nothing but stunning swirley bokeh. The Lens turbo doesn’t alter the bokeh characteristics at all, and you get nice semi-clean specular highlights with a hint of Nissen ring, just as you would without using the lens turbo.
Great video as always!! Such an incredible information for us that love old lenses!
Thank you for all of your interesting and informative videos! You are a treasure to all who watch your work. 📸
Thank you, Simon. Fantastic stuff as usual. I am going to try the glitter experiment.
Thanks so much for the initiative trying apsc.It was only a matter of a few days ago we asked !
I like my 44-2 on apsc - I don't have or feel I need a full frame camera - but seeing this comparison still opens my eyes and broadens my attitude.
Another great video! I am currently using a Helios 44M 4 on my Black Magic Film camera and I absolutely love how my footage looks with this lens. I should experiment and see if I can reproduce swirls on video some time
Thanks for all the work, I've been curious about these questions for quite some time now. it's almost as if this TH-cam channel was made specifically for me lol
Another interesting vid.. I even got my Jupiter 21m to swirl after watching previous vid re swirls.. Keep it up : )
Also, thank you for taking your time to make the video.
This is a very awesome video, thanks so much for sharing!
Thanks for another very informative video.
Hi, big fan of your videos, and was hoping to find out the model of the Japanese Skylight filter used in this particular vid. Thanks for so many insightful and enjoyable videos!
Thank you for this excellent video, Simon. Lots of technical/use case infos and it's worth rewatching to absorb and digest them. As a couple of the comments mention, it would be interesting to see what the Helios 44 can do with a speed booster/focal reducer on an aps-c camera. All the best to you. 🙏
I'd love to see this too. I've bought a Helios 44-2 last December and used it with a dummy adapter but ended up buying a Viltrox EFFX2 focal reducer for my Fuji XT30 because I wasn't quite satisfied. I feel like speed booster made it easier to compose swirls into a photo, almost effortlessly. Although I'm not sure how much of the edge softness is coming from the booster and how much from the Helios but I'd love to see a comparison on it with crop + booster and ff. Anyway, I had more fun with the booster than without it. Cheers
Many thanks - after the comments here, I'm thinking of trying one......
Hi Simon.
I use speed boosters on m42 lens on Olympus mft
With Helios 44 and some others, I am getting plenty of swirl since I am using the complete surface of the optic. saving a stop helps also to get bigger bokeh balls. I use speed booster turbo2 I found to be the best in the market. M42, Nikon and fd versions.
I did all these experiments myself long time ago. But your video still really good to watch.
Thank you!
Thank you for the comparison! That's what I was looking for :)
Great video Simon, I am glad to found your chanell and thanks to you bought few days ago Carl Zeiss Pancolar 50mm f1.8 and Helios 44-2. Cheers, keep going! 🔥👌👍
Great! Many thanks.
I have been thinking of creating a variety of light wall backgrounds. Seems like such a great creative tool.
Thanks for the nudge.
Glad it was helpful!
Great show and tell. Thank you!
this is some interesting info, and great for understanding how cameras work
I use a lens turbo ii with mine on Fujifilm.
Another great video, thanks. One comment: I get crazy swirly images using my Helios 44-2 on Hasselblad X1D.
I'm new to your channel and enjoying your analysis. There is great content here. I wish you had compared the cropped 44 @ f2 with the uncropped 40 at f2 (instead of wide open @ 1.5) for the same composition. Also you might try creating the same composition by not just stepping back so the cropped sensors has the same field of view as the uncropped, but also changing the subject to background distance in a similar way so that the bokeh balls don't change size. Also I'd be interested in a swirly bokeh comparison of the Helios 40 to the Lomography Petzval lens since it can be had with similar focal length, aperture, and is built for swirls.
Hi Simon,
Great video as usual, I am MFT user with and without speed booster. I use many projector lens as well with and without speed booster.
I was planing to buy a full frame mirrorless (lumix s5, or Nikon s5) because I was looking at : more swirl, your video answer’s clearly I do not need, I would also add that Mft allows closer focus so it is easy to play with foreground and background.
The other reason is I am looking at some better image quality while using some of my lenses. My speed booster adds or remove character to some lenses but increase image quality. Some lenses give nice and different character but I am sensing the sensor is too small for the lens resolution. Could you share your experience related to image quality versus sensor size ?
Cheers, Eric
Beautiful work. My perception is that a crop sensor forces you into constant composition mode, no fuzzy thinking.
You're right, I hadn't quite thought of it like this, but it is "harder more critical work" on crop. You can't afford unwanted/ugly things at the edges of the frame in crop, for example. FF you can always crop them off.
One of the best videos I've seen on crop factor vs full frame. Very interesting.
Thank you!
Superb video!
Thank you, I appreciate this :)
Excellent. . thanks
I use a Helios 44M-4 on the Fuji GFX 50R. Not only does the lens cover 44x33 format with swirly effect present out to the edges, the lens becomes shockingly sharp out to the corners stopped down (f11-f16). For swirls I find that focusing at about 1.5meters is the most effective and there a 45mm equivalent field of view allows for more flexible environmental portraiture. I have found the lens so entertaining that I think Fuji would be well served paring one along with every medium format camera they sell! If you were ever to pick up a GFX, re-testing your collection of vintage lenses could give you years more worth of deep dive content.
I usually use my Helios lenses on GFX medium format. Gives me a lovely swirl.
Your videos and the information provided now have me interested in obtaining a few vintage lenses for my Fujifilm XT5. I bought my first Pentax back in 1970 and later some Nikons. I currently use medium format film cameras but the XT5 is my lens for scouting areas to photograph and for when I am interested in color photography. Color film is too costly for me. I develop all my black and white film myself. I would really be interested in your recommendations for lens adapters since that’s the only way I would be able to use them. Do you have any suggestions as to what to buy and what to avoid? Thank you!
Damn good video, thank you.
Another terrific video - thank you. I wonder how the swirls would compare between a crop sensor camera with a speedbooster and the Helios 44 vs the lens on a full frame mirroless camera? Would the speed booster give a more comparable image compared to just using an adapter (no glass) with the Helios. Thanks again.
From my own experience - it really depends on the speed booster and lens in question. Mileage may vary! I have a fairly cheap M42 speed booster, and does a pretty good job with my BELOMO-built 44-2, although I don't find that it makes images feel more swirly. With the more modern 44M-6 and 44M-7, however, it really takes away from their corner sharpness, and the vignetting becomes more noticeable - more so than on a full frame. On these, I also do notice some loss of contrast. It works well for some compositions but it can take away from some of these lenses' better qualities.
And with my Helios 40 - I can't entirely explain why, but the speed booster seems to absolutely kill the vibrance and sharpness of that lens, to the point where I've sworn off putting a speed booster on it again... while at the same time, it works wonderfully on my 135mm Jupiter 37A, at the cost of only some minor extra vignetting wide open. So it really seems to vary.
So, my own conclusion is that trying these with a speed booster is worth it, but it won't entirely match the results of a full-frame sensor.
My 2 cents: I'm using a Viltrox EFFX2 booster and I haven't noticed too much vignetting with my copy, corner sharpness is pretty soft though but I have no idea how that compares to ff. It really is a lottery if your "body + booster + lens" combination will work or not. But definitely worth a try.
Many thanks for sharing your experiences. Since I use both APS-C and FF cameras (and I enjoy the results from the APS-C) I've not seen the need for a speed booster...but maybe I should try one!
A very interesting Video. I myself use a camera with a crop sensor, an Olympus OM-D E-M10 II with crop 2.0 . And I recently bought my first M42 lens a Soligor Macro 28-80 f3.5-4.5 . Now I have a question, with crop 2.0 if I want a fast fifty equivalent I need something like a 28mm lens but I didnt find one lower than f2.5 . Do you have any recommendations? Or should I get a faster 35mm lens?
It's hard to find fast wide angle M42 lenses. There are modern, digital lenses on the other hand (such as Sigma's fast wide angles). I use a 35mm Auto Takumar 35mm f2.3 on crop and very much enjoy the results. I think it one of the reasons the Carl Zeiss Jean Flektogon 35mm f2.4 is so popular...is that it focuses close-up and produces nice bokeh...not unlike a fast fifty equivalent.
laying (or is it lying?) subjects to rest is incredibly informative. thank you!
Thank you! Lying would be more of an issue!
yet another TERRIFIC video!sometimes I feel like this channel is crafted just for my situation lol.
I found a Helios 44-3, and loved it, then lost it on vacation, then hesitated to re-buy one because of mostly using a sony a6000, but yet again, you make a video that seems tailor made to keep me hunting interesting m42 lenses, and re-buying my Helios!
love the amount of examples and demonstration, perfect format!
Many thanks for your kind words - very much appreciated.
I use a Helios 44-2 with a meta ones speed booster on my FujiFilm X-T4 to shoot full frame with it. Works great!
Which speed booster exactly?
Thanks sir
At 9:15 the image taken with the 40 on FF looks really weird. It seems like it was taken on a low SS with motion blur or it has some ghosting to it. The yellow battery has 2 outlines and the top of the Kodak one is Distorted to the left. Is this the result of motion blur or is that caused by the Helios 40?
Also, appreciate this video a lot. I was considering a Helios on cropped but worried about the bokeh. This answers a bunch of questions and concerns I had! Thanks!
Good spot. Yes, it is motion blur. I should have re-taken the shot, as I was holding the camera/lens down on the table rather than using a tripod!!
@@Simonsutak Ah it doesn't hurt the purpose of the shot. I jsut wasn't 100% sure if it was motion blur or the lens!
Thank you I’m in Seth of a Helios now
Thank you very much for your review: what about deep of field? Does it follows the reduction of frame from full frame to APS C. IE let we take as an example a 50 mm lens. Does its deep of field become that of a 75 mm lens?
No, crop sensors change FoV not DoF.
THANKSS
I'm using a pixco adapter focal reducer on my Fuji xt30 and now one of my lenses, an hanimar 135mm 3.5 first model, has started to produce loads of swirls like my Helios 44. Other lenses do it a bit but not as much so I think the focal reducer give a bit of swirl but not all of it
Many thanks! I can remember taking that photo of flowers like it was yesterday. It was a hot sunny morning and the sprinklers were on (in Chiswick House public gardens), producing some lovely effects. My Helios was cheap and not in the best of conditions, and my camera is supposed to be water resistance, so I thought, why not? And I walked straight into the sprinkler waterfalls and took some photos. It was quite early so I'm not sure anyone saw this sight!!!
hi!! do you recommend the pixco speed booster??
@@electricburning I think it does the job for the price but don't expect great sharpness, especially in the borders. Now I'm trying to save do that I can get an early Sony A7 to try the difference in between the focal reducer and the full frame experience. I managed to take nice pictures with it nevertheless. Be mindful to clean it very well when you buy it because it has grease in the screw that connects the reduced with the adapter and it can end up on your sensor
Focal reducer(s) which are pretty common today should have been included here.
I agree. I am using a focus reducer which allows for more swirls.
Whats focus reducer exactly please?
@@rivermintofficial Focal Reducer…I mean how much a twat are you?
..Simon...Simon...Simon....now I have to buy a bag of glitter ...and a vacuum...thank you ...seriously awesome comparison...I bought the Oly MFT Epl6..for my legacy lenses...so all my initial results were coming off that ...awesome bokeh balls due to form factor...and then got the full frame Sony for other reasons. ...and of course now use them on full frame ...
Ha! Two weeks on....hope you're having fun with the glitter!
For the fun of it, I have a Bokeh formula, It may be stupid, but I find it rather fun.
I take the focal length and divide it with the aperture. some examples.
Konica 24mm f2,8 = 8,5
Konica 57mm f1,4 = 40
Komura 200mm f3,5 = 57
That score is a measurement of my Bokeh potential 😋
And yes of course entertaining video !
Interesting , Daniel 635 Biturbo . A lot of the same focal length/different brand lenses would give the same results.
This is a fun formula! I've been enjoying the bokeh/DOF from a Tair 3S recently. 300mm divided by f4.5!
@@Simonsutak Yeah that's a good score 😊I were choosing between a Tair or a Pentacon 300mm f4 telephoto, when a 300mm f5 Komura came up, sadly they are not on the same level as the 200mm Komura for some reason, I stupidly bought two, and they are bad and worse 😅
@@MrFreakwent Yep, the "score" will be the same, but for sure Bokeh as such will differ.
In a way closest focus distance also affect, what is possible.
After seeing this video I'm even more glad I have a full frame camera
The Helios 44 on APSC + speed booster night be on to something 😏
If you use a speed booster will they be more similar?
Yes, that what I was thinking and have just ordered one to find out.
Thought Provoking video. My head is screaming, "What's the math behind this?" You say several times to, "step back" in order to get a similar subject size on the APS-C compared with FF, here's the rub, "how far back?" Does it change the FOV? Is there a simple conversion factor to roughly estimate the corrected, "subject distance?" How does this change if I use a Speed Booster, and how do the swirls change if I use a Speed Booster on the APS-C camera? Like I said, "Though provoking video." Thanks. 🙏
All great questions! I'll try to answer them at some point - starting with the the conversion factor.
@@Simonsutak Cheers, Thanks for the reply. I've looked deep into this but everything seems to be focused on the focal length equivalence, e.g. 50mm cf 75-85mm, thus matching subject size via different focal lengths, whereas, your video uses the same lens, and subsequently, suggestively, the same fov, but on different crop (format) cameras: Format - Large (4x5 etc.), medium (120/620), 35mm (135/126 -"full frame"), APS-C, 24mm, micro 4/3, half frame (110mm), etc.; It'd be convenient, if all we had to do to adjust near subject distance to camera by just multiplying by the crop factor, but it strikes me that at far distance this becomes a physically moot point.
I wonder how the swirls would perform on a Micro Four Thirds crop sensor with a Helios 44 or 44-2 with a speed booster.
Hopefully someone else can answer this question!!
3:54 what kind of filter is this ?!
I made this myself!
I'm not sure why I'm watching, I made a speed booster that covers ff for my helioses (not sure what the plural of Helios is)
mate thank you so much for this. hope this comment finds you in tip top health
Ful frame prevails
Never did like the swirly look of these lenses.
Anyone who tells you that somehow you won’t get the same bokeh on a crop sensor is an idiot. The crop affects the perceived focal length, not the characteristics of the lens itself. You get the exact same swirl affect if you fill the frame the same way (ie you take a couple steps back). It’s not as if an APS-C camera takes a full frame photo, and then crops out the good stuff.
I have a Helios lens, I shoot it on an APS-C, I get the intended effect.
Also, it’s not always as noticeable, and dreamy-chaotic, depending on distances from subject to background and how much of the frame is in focus. The more depth and variation in depth from foreground to subject to background, the more you get the effect of the swirl.
And, as can be seen, there is zero effect on DoF only an effect on FoV. Lenses create DoF not sensors.
I don't get why you would delete my comment...
It wasn't me - or least I didn't deliberately delete your comment. Please re-comment if you have the time or inclination.
@@Simonsutak I included a link of a photo as an example for the lens I suggested. I read that you have to approve comments with links, it's hidden. But nevermind now, I just wanted to be of help. Now the point is lost