Dudley was so reserved here, but a riot in "Arthur", one of the funniest of films ever -- incredible performance. His early demise left a large hole in the world of entertainment.
Arlene is always good at plugging for a performer, but I agree, I've never seen her so profusive with her praise as she was here. She was simply agog over these 4 lads.
Is it just me or do they seem to have most intriguing occupations at the end when they run out of time. The guy who makes crossword puzzles deserved a longer game.
I think this was just a sneeze from Dorothy because she seemed fine through the rest of the show. Bennett sneezed later on, maybe there was a little dust or pollen in the air.
Purple Capricorn - I have seen some people's faces contort like that when trying to stifle a sneeze that almost always refuses the stifling. She was trying to keep the show moving and it probably would have been quicker for her to have just sneezed and moved along.
Very amusing that some people here read so much into Dorothy struggling to hold back a sneeze until she finishes her timed intro (been there, done that) but no one seeks some deeper meaning when Bennett gets his tongue totally tangled with the rodeo lady.
Dorothy was clearly, obviously and plainly attempting to suppress a sneeze. Those who argue otherwise have never seen how goofy they appear to others, when trying the same thing. If you follow Dorothy's motions throughout, you will seen clearly that this the case. There is no stroke, mini or otherwise, and there is no drug reaction. The scientific basis for my position is on the basis of a common sense observation.
Never in my life nor personal experience have I seen anyone try to talk and sneeze at the same time. I am not convinced. Why is she so skinny ? Later shows she appears like she had some kind of face alteration. Just as an aside I watched youtube; Person to person Dorothy Kilgallen and her husband in an interview 1956 in their 22 room apartment which says a lot about her character and mind especially the enormous painted portrait of herself on the wall. I found it all quite weird.
This is a treat seeing Dudley Moore from much longer back than I ever knew him. I'd never heard of Dudley Moore prior to the movie _10_ so this is astonishing.
Hard to believe that Dudley Moore has been gone since 2002. He was only 27 years old here and stayed with Peter Cook until the mid-1970s. They look like kids here -- God, I'm getting old !!
Here's how we know Dorothy was doing nothing more than suppressing a sneeze....she sneezed. As Bennett was walking in she was then dabbing her nose with a hanky.
I was 4 in 1962, therefore 6 in 1964. I was not in New York at either age, and I don't know what reaction this cast received in New York. But, I'm inclined to believe there was a bigger reaction to four other young men from England on Feb. 9, 1964.
@@davidsanderson5918 There was no paralysis or any other abnormal reaction. Why do people ascribe those kinds of behaviors to Dorothy on no basis whatsoever? Her astute questioning of the guests belies any drug or other substance abuse.
Robert Goulet, born in Lawrence, Mass., died in 2007 from a rare lung disease while awaiting a lung transplant, aged 73. His breakthrough came as Sir Lancelot in Camelot in 1960.
Colin Harris, I agree Bob Goulet was definitely considered Canadian by most people. And what a voice! Also, it was nice to hear them talk about The O'Keefe Centre, it retains that name and memories for many of us!
a sneeze. why people have to make issues where there are none. she looked clear eyed, no slur in her speech and she said it was a sneeze. give your head a shake!
Yes it was great to see Dudley Moore. Though I admit until John introduced him, I never recognized him. Gosh he was young there. Sorry replying to a 6 year old comment.
Beyond The Fringe wasn't a Broadway show!! It passed through town in New York but it was essentially a student revue combining talents from the universities of Cambridge and Oxford in England. It became a West End hit in London (as evidenced by a complete BTF performance that can be found here on TH-cam)....THEN it went on tour. So it was an English phenomenon first...just in case anyone didn't know. Most of you guys in the US will know Dudley Moore but Peter Cook went on to be known as pretty much the godfather of alternative comedy here in the UK. Prior to that, he and Moore formed a successful comedy partnership as Pete and Dud (highly recommended) and later as Derek and Clive (proceed with caution there!). Sir Jonathan Miller went on to be one of our finest theatre directors and Alan Bennett became a prolific playwright and writer. I don't know if the Americans know these things but there you go! All four were institutions in their own right, indeed far more famous for their work after BTF and, in so doing, they were all well-loved in our country. I say 'were'...Alan is still with us. It's quite something that they were SO successful in the States. They are at the complete other end of the spectrum from Buddy Hackett and Jerry Lewis type stuff which would've been all the rage then. Also they chipped away at institutions that the US hold so dear....spoofing church sermons, ridiculing authority and particularly politicians, particularly taking the mick out of the military and people's naive attitudes to war. All with an air of eloquence and intelligence rsther thsn crudely, I hasten to add.
To be honest, I think Dorothy just tried to avoid sneezing live on air during the introductions, looking back at it would have probably been better for her to just sneeze, say excuse me, and carry on (if you listen very carefully she says Sneeze). Am sure If it was anything worse, especially a mini stroke, they would have found someway to get her off stage and replace her. Sure Kitty Carlisle was around somewhere!!
Wow about the first contestants. I don't think JCD realizes how much genius is sitting next to him. "Beyond the Fringe" was truly groundbreaking for its time.
Scott VanHorn - I think John probably isn't aware of the level of artistic and scientific genius that is adjacent to him onstage either. Each of these men was a genius in other fields and they did this extraordinary work together. In artistic terms, it was in many ways a natural outcropping of the "Angry Young Men" school of British playwrights who gained fame in the 1950s.
Corinne Williams led an interesting life, from beginning life in a well-to-do family, to broken home, to tomboy, to drifter, to rodeo (staying with the men's association even when a women's association was formed) and singer/guitar picker. Here's a link to an article about her in the magazine "American Cowboy": books.google.com/books?id=wOoCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Corinne+Williams+rodeo&source=bl&ots=TWHkyrCJ0d&sig=Gtmz8YtPRQCqL56eUbnhfR8jNwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwib_bng6obeAhWhVt8KHZwsBtQQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Corinne%20Williams%20rodeo&f=false While her arms didn't appear to be overly muscular (although she was hiding them somewhat with her wrap), her back appeared to be rather broad. And she experienced more than her share of injuries over the years. Here's another article about her. She was the real deal: slightdetour.blogspot.com/2006/02/cowgirl-corinnes-come-back-to-life.html Her daughter, Bonnie, followed in her footsteps for a time.
Daly was only 48 years old when the first of three children with his second wife was born. Not meaning to be critical but this was 12-1/2 years after he started doing this show and his appearance hasn't changed much -- he looked like he was close to 60 when he started and still looks about the same. I was just surprised at how young he was at this point
Interesting fact about JCD (as the birth of his son was mentioned here) from each of his two marriages he had two boys and one girl - in that order both times. Each of his four sons had the first name John; John Neale, John Charles, John Warren and John Earl Jameson. Both John Neale and John Warren - eldest in both set, carried their mother's maiden as their second name. John Earl carried his grandfather's. Don't know where the Jameson came from. His daughters were Helene Grant and Nina Elizabeth (born 20 years, 5 months apart)
Jameson was an old family name - I want to say (but not 100% sure) that John's uncle had that name. The girls also had traditional names; Helene Grant (Buncy) Daly was named after John's mother, and Nina Elizabeth Daly was named after her mother's mother.
Dudley Moore and Peter Cook would later star in a movie called Bedazzled in 1967 (which would then be remade in another version starring Brendan Fraser and Elizabeth Hurley; Raquel Welch being in the original). The movie itself I didn't particularly enjoy, but I suggest it for those who'd like to see what the 60's looked like.
And on the subject of Dudley Moore, he was once married to one of THE most beautiful British actresses ever in Suzy Kendall (known for "To Sir, With Love").
***** The one who captivated me most recently is Sandra Dee in 'Imitation of Life'. That was a fantastic movie, I strongly recommend it to all. Fantastic performances from Lana Turner and Juanita Moore. Susan Kohner's I didn't find quite convincing, regardless of the fact she won a Golden Globe.
+Corleone That 1959 color movie (based on Fannie Hurst's novel) is very good, but I think that the 1934 black&white film, starring Claudette Colbert, Rochelle Hudson, Louise Beavers, Fredi Washington, Warren William, Alan Hale, and Ned Sparks (and directed by John M. Stahl), is light years better than it - and makes its points more effectively.
At 13:15, Buddy uses the expression "you son of a gun" to the contestant, and follows up with "Excuse me, Joey". He was referring to Joey Bishop, who frequently used "you son of a gun" in his performances. Joey used the line at least once as a panelist on WML, when it was his turn and there were 9 down and 1 to go. Joey had no clue about the contestant's line and said, "You're about to win $50, you son of a gun".
I was born on this day, so both my dad and John Charles Daly were new fathers when the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred. "Camelot" is a important play to me, and I saw Burton as King Arthur in the early '80s. And I do the crossword in The NYT every day.
The two crossword puzzle makers or editors on the NY Times that I remember were Will Shortz and Will Weng. Most likely I've worked on a puzzle or two by Jack Luzzato, but the name didn't ring a bell.
6:14 A couple of grim ironies on the show, given Dorothy's episode. Dr. Miller was a neurologist and Dudley Moore, the man sitting just in front of him was falsely accused of being a public drunk like his "Arthur" character. In reality, he had a deadly nerve disorder, progressive supranuclear palsy, which also killed Joshua Logan and Teresa Brewer.
krasnykavkaz No one here in the UK reported Dudley Moore's condition incorrectly. There was a Parkinson interview where he talked about difficulty playing piano and 'losing it'. After that I only remember sad news and solemn reports on poor Dudley over here.
Supranuclear palsy is also in the process of taking the beloved Linda Ronstadt. She's been out of the public eye for a long time, so we don't know how she's doing now, but I know she's already outrun the life expectancy. (as of Feb 20, 2023)
1:20 --- look closely at Buddy Hackett's introduction. He is nothing if not a complete professional and a trooper, which may account for why the producers used him regularly from 1962 to I think 1967. There are certain looks in his eyes that suggest he is bracing himself for anything.
@@savethetpc6406 - No. He was not responding to any condition you are wrongly ascribing to Dorothy. I hate for people to continue to try to ruin Dorothy's reputation. She seems very normal, if smarter than most.
I think the crossword puzzle man was pretty good and smart when he said "That's a moot point" in response to a question. Bravo! Usually contestants are so timid. I wonder if the panel was offended by such shows of confidence?
RE: Dorothy’s incident in the introductions. I think she came with a snootful and got caught off guard by sneezes. Several points are now obvious that were not in November 1962. 1. Her alcohol and barbiturate addictions were spiraling her downward; they would result in her February 1963 hospitalization [for essentially detox.] 2. Apparently the producers / director were nervous about her - they did the show to keep her de-emphasized off screen. 3. Interestingly enough, notice that she looks good on screen for the rest of the broadcast; when she is on, she does well enough. 4. There might have been something in the air. Dorothy melts down into a sneezing jag and in the last game, Bennett [ 21:37 ] of all people! honks off a big wet sneeze.
Sometime between the discussion of Mrs. Williams's fur stole and Arlene's glamorous fur (about 11 minutes in) and Mrs. Williams's exit (16:15) Arlene has taken off her own fur and draped it over the back of her chair. Under the hot TV lights of the era, I can imagine that Arlene was sweltering in it. Mrs. Williams's lightweight stole looks a bit silly (is she supposed to be keeping her elbows warm?) but at least better suited to the TV studio temperatures.
I am not at all familiar with Jonathan Miller or Allen Bennett. But IMHO Dudley Moore and Peter Cook teamed up as one of the funniest comedy duos I have ever seen. To those more familiar with Moore, to give you an idea of how funny Cook (or should I say, Sir Arthur Grebe-Strebeling ... or was it Sir Arthur Strebe-Grebeling?) was, in perhaps their funniest skit of all time, Moore plays the straight man in the routine. I am referring to "The Frog and Peach". th-cam.com/video/iuE_a1pTsO4/w-d-xo.html
I thought Robert Goulet did a great job of disguising his voice -- so much so that I was expecting someone to think he was a female. Yet Bennett seemed to guess who he was before he even asked his first question -- how? I know he read the papers to see who was in town, but wasn't Robert Goulet usually in New York anyway at that point in time?
Angel Girl - Right after the Cuban Missile Crisis, so when John refers to these troubled times, he ain't kiddin'. The 10/16-28/62 crisis resolved by this date.
I hate when they introduce the last contestants while they only have 3 minutes left, especially when they have extremely interesting occupations (just like a gag writer once). They had like 10 bullfighters but that was the only crosswords puzzle maker, I would have loved to see the panel trying to guess it, especially given their intellectual predispositions, but no, even Buddy Hackett started with the wrong angle, they all thought it had to be a product so they ventured in the realm of a 'material' object. A really wasted opportunity.
Joe Postove mystery guests earned $ 500 as did guest panelists - unsure how much the regulars earned but John Daly earned $ 200,000 per year by the mid-50s
Yeah, that's definitely not right. Mystery guests and guest panelists did not earn the same fee. The panelists got more money because they were on for the entire show.
What's My Line? Gil Fates' book clearly indicates what each person earned - Guest panelists were rarely the main draw - it was the mystery guests. Some mystery guests would insist on coming with either a spouse or a son/daughter and WML had to pay each of them $ 500.
BV See the other thread talking about this on this video. You're right, it's clearly indicated in the book. You're wrong that the guest panelists and the mystery guests got the same fee. It happens. I get things wrong all the time. If I could find the reference in the book easily, I would find it, but I've tried in the past and I don't have the patience. Fates specifically gives the argument that the guest panelists were paid more because they were on for the entire program, it's not my original thought.
The shape of things to come 1963: some comics made distinguished appearance on WML for distinct periods. Ernie Kovacs, 1957. Joey Bishop 1959 - 1961. Shelley Berman 1960-1961. Peter Cook must have made an impression on the producers: in a few weeks, he would become the most memorable guest panelist of 1963. Period.
First time I've seen a 'line' of mine represented. I used to work on a puzzle magazine, and my master's thesis was on the syntax of cryptic-crossword clues.
JC Turner: I love crossword puzzles. I know that the puzzles in the New York Times get more difficult through the week, with the most difficult being on Fridays. Saturdays are a little less difficult than Fridays. And Sundays! I love those best.
Over dramatizing a repressed sneeze by Dorothy was to give an impression that she may be on drug's was to manufacture a false scenario. Later when Cerf sneezed Maybe he was on cocaine ? In other words these were people that just sneezed period. P.S. I'm always pleased watching these shows (I have about 30 of them in my collection. I saw them when they first came out, well, around 1956 for me.) The young widow, I was thinking maybe her husband also was a bronc buster and met his demise that way or was in the war. Today whistling at her might be considered sexual harassment, though I doubt it. I shouldn't over dramatize the whistling, I suppose that would be like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I have watched this episode several times and believe Dorothy was trying to stifle a sneeze. Sometimes when I go to sneeze I often get this sharp horrible pain in my nasal area and my facial expression etc is quite similar to Dorothy's except before I sneeze my eyes get watery and know that the pain hurts and just want to cry until I either sneeze or stop the process of sneezing. I don't think she was drunk
Most of the time bennett knows who is in town and who is going to be there and THINKS it makes him look sssoo smart -- when actually it just spoils things for the rest of us!!
I don't agree at all. Part of what makes this show enjoyable is that the panelists, for the most part, were sharp, well informed about current events and serious about playing the game.
@@PrenticeBoy1688 is ok to disagree -- -- I think we are both right, just in different ways ! 🙂 I guess I just get frustrated when I want the fabulous guest star to stay around LONGER -- ya know
@@jt414 Well, we've both posted about our likes and dislikes. Being wrong or right doesn't really figure into this. I enjoy the regular rounds more than the celebrity rounds, and so I don't mind it when the mystery guest is found out quickly. The ordinary contestants whose voices are unknown to the panelists and who aren't getting paid a king's ransom to appear on the show are more interesting to me.
Well Dorothy certainly isn't drunk. Her behavior outside of this brief moment during the introduction seems perfectly sober and normal. I think the only thing that would explain this moment would be some sort of drug induced reaction, or a sudden mini-stroke. I've noticed in other previous introductions an awkwardness in subtleties of Dorothy's speech and other introductions. I really believe that these things have a correlation to her eventual mysterious demise 3 years later. I honestly think there was a health issue here exacerbated by a minor drug and/or alcohol abuse situation
The comments on this episode are appalling. Dorothy SAYS, quite clearly, that she has to sneeze. TWICE. Considering she died well before her time, perhaps we can all show some empathy and sympathy to her? Video poster, What's My Line?, could you please delete these comments? They drag down a wonderful show that you're hosting.
Mystery guests were paid, I think, $750 per appearance (I'm going by memory of what Gil Fates wrote in his book). Guest panelists got $1000. I've seen others say otherwise, but my memory is that Fates said that regular contestants didn't get paid, but they got a free trip to NY and a night in a fancy hotel, as well as the chance to appear on TV, and that's more than enough to offer to get all the contestants they needed.
My memory of Fate's book is that the guest panelists got 750 dollars and the mystery guests 500 but that is quibbling over what is essentially correct. The WML pay was probably close to scale, and Fates said it was enormously useful to set those fees because everyone could say they were getting top money [ . . . available. ] Fate's book said that when he produced "WML at 25," he officered union scale to pay people who appeared in the special 526 dollars if his or her kinescope bit lasted more than a minute.
soulierinvestments And do you remember what he said about whether the regular contestants were paid? I tried to find the section a while back and gave up, so I'm going by memory, but I'm pretty sure he said the non-celebrities weren't paid.
I remember reading that near the end of the run the regular panelists were getting 1,750 for the show. Can you imagine that? All of them had other lucrative things going on, but, wow, that's a lotta money for essentially showing up on Sunday night to play a game they all enjoyed!
This was one of the most interesting and personable array of contestants in one show in the 17-year history of WML? on CBS. Note how neither Corinne Williams nor Jack Luzzatto are shy about answering the panel's questions - or, particularly in Mrs. Williams's case, in asking for clarification of what a panelist meant. I like Buddy Hackett's schtick at a guest panelist. He's very entertaining! "Beyond the Fringe" had opened at the John Golden Theatre in New York City the previous Saturday, 27 October 1962 (a week after "Mr. President," speaking of recent Mystery Guests) - and it WAS a huge, long-running hit. It ran at the John Golden through Saturday, 30 May 1964 (during the World's Fair) - and then "Beyond the Fringe '65" opened at the Ethel Barrymore Theatre on Tuesday, 15 December 1964 and ran through Saturday, 9 January 1965 (kind of a "limited return engagment"). "Camelot" was then in the final couple of months of its successful initial Broadway production (opened on Saturday, 3 December 1960; closed on Saturday, 5 January 1963; a total of 873 performances) at the Majestic Theatre. I assume that Robert Peterson was then playing Lancelot du Lac on Broadway, since he is the only listed replacement in the role on IBDB. My two cents in the discussion on Dorothy Kilgallen is that, in light of what we now know about the warning signs of a stroke, the contortion of her face and the peculiar slurring of her speech look to me as though she suffered a minor stroke while introducing Bennett Cerf.
Regardless of what was the cause, this is still as disconcerting for me as it was the first time I saw it. The puzzled expression that captivates her face is quite saddening.
It must have been totally humiliating for her, and yet they carried on with the rest of the show completely without incident. That's professionalism. I love the small gesture Bennett made of grabbing her arm as if it to say, "don't worry about it" when he came on.
What's My Line? I saw this in the youtube video of bizarre moments or somesuch. And I have never been able to watch that moment again. Mostly, because reading the comments on that really just broke my heart for Dorothy since she's clearly not inebriated and I just hate that so many people look for any sign of drunkenness with her. Good on Bennett for showing her a little love. (I don't care how he came off in that Oral History interview, everything else he wrote about her and how he is with her on the show totally contradicts it lol)
Right after she said Bennett's name she said as an aside if you listen carefully I'm sorry I sneezed. It would have been easier and quicker just to sneeze but perhaps she was afraid of having mucus run visibly out and onto her mouth
Michelle Ray he had a restaurant in Beverly Hills where he could play piano whenever he wanted. He rented a parking spot on an acquaintance’s driveway across the street so he could make a quick getaway if needed. He wanted to buy her house to put in a parking lot, but she wouldn’t sell.
It’s not unlikely that it was a TIA, but it’s difficult to know for sure. Another possible explanation is side effects of barbiturates, which we know she used. The drug was highly unpredictable even when used as prescribed, and peculiar effects could appear out of the blue in long term users. Often fine-motoric disturbances that didn't affect the patients cognitive abilities. It could be very unpleasant and frightening.
Steff2929again You seem to know quite a bit about this. Do you have a medical background? I don't know much about neurology or drug interactions, but would it really be possible to have a mini-stroke and then continue on with the show as if nothing had happened? The idea that it was a side effect of the drugs she was taking, especially if combined with alcohol, seems plausible to me, but again, I'm far from a medical expert. I find it hard to believe that the simple act of holding back a sneeze would cause her to have such difficulty speaking, but it does seem likely that she would use that as an excuse to cover her embarrassment at what had happened. Then again, as others have noted, Bennett sneezed toward the end too, and he was sitting closest to Dorothy. Could it be that there was something in the air that not only brought on sneezing but could even have momentarily brought on Dorothy's strange speaking difficulty? (Come to think of it, Bennett had some difficulty speaking at one point also (starting around 14:37). I guess we'll never know what really happened, but I'm glad she was able to pull herself together for the rest of the show.
SaveThe TPC I used to work with mental care. But not any more. It take its toll. I have seen the effects of barbs. And I recognise them. A horrible substance. Sometimes effective, but sometimes destructive and even fatal. They are still used, but with a much more narrow and sensible, in hospital, therapeutic window. For surgical sedation and sometimes as a treatment for severe strokes. You can have a TIA passing almost unnoticed. It's a tricky condition, quite hard to pinpoint. I don't believe this was a sneeze. Her facial expressions indicates something else. I have actually showed this to former colleagues and they come to the same conclusion. Bennett sneezing was most likely a sympathy action. In spite of all things said about his relation with Dorothy, I actually believe he felt sorry for her and wanted to help her out. He was probably quite shaken by the incident, just as Dorothy was. Bennett was most likely a very kind and caring man. A lot of people took barbs at that time, properly prescribed by unknowing doctors. He may have seen the effects before.
Steff2929again Thank you for that explanation, and I think you're right about Bennett caring about Dorothy. I like him a lot, and it always bothered me that he made those negative remarks about Dorothy in an interview years after her death. It seems to be true that neither Arlene nor Bennett socialized that much with Dorothy outside of WML, but I can't imagine that they didn't all consider each other caring friends.
Wrong. We don't know that. If Dorothy were high on something she would not have been such an astute panelist. And she certainly would not have been so successful in coming so close to learning the identity of Kennedy's assassins. Close enough to get herself murdered.
- Too many junior psychiarists here. These behaviors supposedly observed in Dorothy were too subjective to classify medically without objectively observeable confirming data. So knock it off.
It's funny how Dorothy consistently asks questions about walking down 5th Avenue with it would people laugh at her. She seems extremely concerned about not fitting in and feels vital to her to remind everyone that she's on Fifth Avenue, and drops names and details all the time.
Buddy has sort of grown on me in terms of being smarter than I gave him credit for when guessing occupations. But it's really quite annoying when he continues to try to force for laughter, by that I mean he consistently puts his blindfold on sideways or upside down. Pretty much every single time. I get it, it's funny sort of, for once, Buddy but every time? They act like we've never seen that before, and poor John gets so irritated seeing him and those like him who keep doing these same things over and over.
Obviously, by this time, the show's demographics are skewing older, with Geritol becoming a sponsor. Kellogg's and Geritol, well there you go. Geritol was the least scrupulous of all WML advertisers, at least those sponsors since 1962. Here the pitch is for strength but later it was for iron tired blood. By the 1970s the Federal Trade Commission had issued the largest fine in its history as of then against Geritol's then-manufacturer for false and deceptive advertising, grossly negligent bordering on reckless, which means that people took the product for conditions that Geritol could not possibly have benefited, with some level of risk.
I JUST WISH I HAD BEEN GIFTED WITH ROBERT GOULET'S MAGNIFICENT SPEAKING VOICE. ON DOWN THE LIST OF MY FAVORITES WOULD BE, IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER: ROBERT TAYLOR, JEFF CHANDLER, ALAN LADD, GEORGE FENNIMAN, CLINT WALKER, RONALD COLMAN, WILLIAM HOLDEN, BURT LANCASTER, ROGER MOORE AND RICHARD BURTON. WORST EVER: BUDDY HACKET!😨🥵😬🙉😵💫🥺😫 I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF HIS VOICE WAS "PUT ON" OR AN IMPEDIMENT.
If that was the case I would assume she would stop trying to talk through it. I cannot exclude it as a possibility though. Hopefully there's a viewer with a medical background that can give some ideas.
Dorothy's unusual action in introducing Bennet seemed not to be drunkeness but something neurological. I am no doctor but I do have a MA in Psychology and have seen my share of unusual actions like hers due to neurological problems regardless of the cause. Sad to see.
It sure looks and sounds like a TIA to me. It was pretty much generally speculated that her drug use was ramping up at the time; but if she'd been under the influence she wouldn't have recovered for the rest of the show. A looks a lot like a mini-stroke based on what I've observed.
Cough, sneeze, something caught in her throat........any of these plausible explanations could have been exacerbated by drug use. She obviously felt bad and apologized to Bennett.
definitely wouldn't surprise me if it was indeed a minor stroke. according to lee israel (her biographer), dorothy did have other medical problems, aside from her anemia (which was the culprit in dorothy fainting and ending up in the hospital).
Lorna Badeo I didn't know about the anaemia. It adds a piece to the puzzle. An underlying haematological condition may explain it. Some of her other symptoms also point in that direction. Since they can be quite general in nature, and also may include neuro-psychiatric findings, it may very well have been dismissed as something nervous. A typical fate for many women at that time. It actually happens even today. If a doctor then prescribed barbiturates to "calm" her down, she ended up in a dangerous vicious circle. We now know that barbs tend to aggravate these conditions. It's just another theory, impossible to prove without proper testing. We will never know for sure, but I don't think she knowingly drugged and drank herself to death, not for a moment. She was too smart for that.
Steff2929again I don't think it's ever been suggested that Dorothy killed herself (suicide), has it? The debate-- if it can be called that-- has been over whether her death was an accident or a JFK-assassination-conspiracy-murder (which seems to be utterly baseless). Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the phrase "knowingly drugged and drank herself to death" in your comment. . . .
What's My Line? I was referring to those who claim that she abused alcohol and drugs in a reckless and self destructive manner, implying that she had herself to blame. It's an opinion that pops up every now and then, and it makes me sad.
she definitely did not do it knowingly as far as her death is concerned. i highly recommend reading the Lee Israel biography on her. the last chapter goes through her last day/evening alive and the incredible show that was laid out after her death - from the first time she was found dead, to the second "first time" she was found dead. it took years of research for Israel to put the book together. the book does not sugarcoat Dorothy's life at all. she's neither a victim or martyr. until her death, when it really feels like she became a victim. the sad part is, she was getting to a really great place in her life, i believe.
Wow, she sure sobered up fast. Look at her at 13:40 (12 minutes later). Holy sh*t, she was holding in a sneeze. I have to say though that after watching her Cerf introduction, it kinda seemed like a mini seizure or stroke. She HAS been drunk on the show and did have an addiction, however. None of that changes the fact that she was murdered
Yup. It's a well known fact according to books written by insiders of the show. His nosy wife would find out who the mystery guest was and she'd tell him.. Ever notice that he hardly EVER gets the normal guests?
![What's My Line? - Edward G. Robinson; Steve Lawrence [panel] (Dec 16, 1962)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H_PU5m7-weA/mqdefault.jpg)
![What's My Line? - Edward G. Robinson; Steve Lawrence [panel] (Dec 16, 1962)](/img/tr.png)
![What's My Line? - Tony Martin; Peter Ustinov [panel] (Oct 28, 1962)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QjwOdtjohYI/mqdefault.jpg)
![What's My Line? - Bette Davis; Art Linkletter [panel] (Nov 11, 1962)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Sh-BCJ8hZw8/mqdefault.jpg)
Dudley was so reserved here, but a riot in "Arthur", one of the funniest of films ever -- incredible performance. His early demise left a large hole in the world of entertainment.
I've never seen Arlene so enthusiastic about a mystery guest and that is saying something as she is always extremely warm and happy to see them.
Just a few days later I have watched an episode with Peter Cook on the panel that has just popped up in my suggestions. Nice to see his meteoric rise.
Arlene is always good at plugging for a performer, but I agree, I've never seen her so profusive with her praise as she was here. She was simply agog over these 4 lads.
I found a video of the the 2 hour Beyond the Fringe show. Monty Python may have learned A LOT from these guys.
FYI folks, Beyond The Fringe is actually on TH-cam in its entirety.
Lorna Badeo I've got the original LP of it on Parlophone. :)
Thanks, it's great!
Is it just me or do they seem to have most intriguing occupations at the end when they run out of time. The guy who makes crossword puzzles deserved a longer game.
Yeah and plus Steve Allen as a one list!
It would have been interesting to hear more about his occupation, I definitely agree. And yes, that seems to have happened pretty often.
I've often thought that. Glad I'm not the only one.
So cool seeing Dudley Moore!!!
I think this was just a sneeze from Dorothy because she seemed fine through the rest of the show. Bennett sneezed later on, maybe there was a little dust or pollen in the air.
Or there was a cold going around.
Purple Capricorn - I have seen some people's faces contort like that when trying to stifle a sneeze that almost always refuses the stifling. She was trying to keep the show moving and it probably would have been quicker for her to have just sneezed and moved along.
The Brave Introvert Fair point!
Late November allergies.
She even says "a sneeze"...
Very amusing that some people here read so much into Dorothy struggling to hold back a sneeze until she finishes her timed intro (been there, done that) but no one seeks some deeper meaning when Bennett gets his tongue totally tangled with the rodeo lady.
Bart Greenberg and The Brave Introvert, Touchė! Absolutely right!
Robert Goulet...be still my beating heart.
Dorothy was clearly, obviously and plainly attempting to suppress a sneeze. Those who argue otherwise have never seen how goofy they appear to others, when trying the same thing. If you follow Dorothy's motions throughout, you will seen clearly that this the case. There is no stroke, mini or otherwise, and there is no drug reaction. The scientific basis for my position is on the basis of a common sense observation.
she also holds up her finger to her nose and then a tissue. its obviously a sneeze to those who think otherwise. :>
You do not convince me, I am sorry.
I definitely agree she was trying not to sneeze. And then finally had to sneeze. You just can't talk and sneeze at the same time.
I agree. I had never heard of this controversy nor seen this episode before today. It seems obvious to me that she was trying to suppress a sneeze.
Never in my life nor personal experience have I seen anyone try to talk and sneeze at the same time. I am not convinced. Why is she so skinny ? Later shows she appears like she had some kind of face alteration. Just as an aside I watched youtube; Person to person Dorothy Kilgallen and her husband in an interview 1956 in their 22 room apartment which says a lot about her character and mind especially the enormous painted portrait of herself on the wall. I found it all quite weird.
This is a treat seeing Dudley Moore from much longer back than I ever knew him. I'd never heard of Dudley Moore prior to the movie _10_ so this is astonishing.
I am shocked!
Hard to believe that Dudley Moore has been gone since 2002. He was only 27 years old here and stayed with Peter Cook until the mid-1970s. They look like kids here -- God, I'm getting old !!
Not kids exactly but definitely young. Dudley Moore was 27 Peter Cook was 25
Here's how we know Dorothy was doing nothing more than suppressing a sneeze....she sneezed. As Bennett was walking in she was then dabbing her nose with a hanky.
I was 4 in 1962, therefore 6 in 1964. I was not in New York at either age, and I don't know what reaction this cast received in New York. But, I'm inclined to believe there was a bigger reaction to four other young men from England on Feb. 9, 1964.
She is simply sneezing!
Ok then :)
Well I've never had prolonged paralysis like that when sneezing, have you?
@@davidsanderson5918 There was no paralysis or any other abnormal reaction. Why do people ascribe those kinds of behaviors to Dorothy on no basis whatsoever? Her astute questioning of the guests belies any drug or other substance abuse.
Sneezing, yes! Simply, no! That was quite an ordeal.
Robert Goulet, born in Lawrence, Mass., died in 2007 from a rare lung disease while awaiting a lung transplant, aged 73. His breakthrough came as Sir Lancelot in Camelot in 1960.
Born in Lawrence, but we consider him a Canadian, as he grew up, and actually began his career up here, and studied voice at the RCM in Toronto
Colin Harris, I agree Bob Goulet was definitely considered Canadian by most people. And what a voice! Also, it was nice to hear them talk about The O'Keefe Centre, it retains that name and memories for many of us!
Wonderful! A perfect Lancelot! I ordered a CD after this episode. Still great now!😍😍🎶🎶🎶
a sneeze. why people have to make issues where there are none. she looked clear eyed, no slur in her speech and she said it was a sneeze. give your head a shake!
People who comment here are always doing that with Dorothy. Really dislike it and try to fly on past those comments.
It was good to see Dudley Moore.
Yes it was great to see Dudley Moore. Though I admit until John introduced him, I never recognized him. Gosh he was young there. Sorry replying to a 6 year old comment.
Bobby Goulet's falsetto in the Mystery segment was ribtickling!
Beyond The Fringe wasn't a Broadway show!! It passed through town in New York but it was essentially a student revue combining talents from the universities of Cambridge and Oxford in England. It became a West End hit in London (as evidenced by a complete BTF performance that can be found here on TH-cam)....THEN it went on tour. So it was an English phenomenon first...just in case anyone didn't know.
Most of you guys in the US will know Dudley Moore but Peter Cook went on to be known as pretty much the godfather of alternative comedy here in the UK. Prior to that, he and Moore formed a successful comedy partnership as Pete and Dud (highly recommended) and later as Derek and Clive (proceed with caution there!). Sir Jonathan Miller went on to be one of our finest theatre directors and Alan Bennett became a prolific playwright and writer.
I don't know if the Americans know these things but there you go! All four were institutions in their own right, indeed far more famous for their work after BTF and, in so doing, they were all well-loved in our country. I say 'were'...Alan is still with us.
It's quite something that they were SO successful in the States. They are at the complete other end of the spectrum from Buddy Hackett and Jerry Lewis type stuff which would've been all the rage then. Also they chipped away at institutions that the US hold so dear....spoofing church sermons, ridiculing authority and particularly politicians, particularly taking the mick out of the military and people's naive attitudes to war. All with an air of eloquence and intelligence rsther thsn crudely, I hasten to add.
My first favorite English comedians were Benny Hill, Dave Thomas, then Monty Python.
I love the Beyond the Fringe albums. The humor and wit still hold up. Of course they all went on to bigger things.
To be honest, I think Dorothy just tried to avoid sneezing live on air during the introductions, looking back at it would have probably been better for her to just sneeze, say excuse me, and carry on (if you listen very carefully she says Sneeze). Am sure If it was anything worse, especially a mini stroke, they would have found someway to get her off stage and replace her. Sure Kitty Carlisle was around somewhere!!
Wow about the first contestants. I don't think JCD realizes how much genius is sitting next to him. "Beyond the Fringe" was truly groundbreaking for its time.
Scott VanHorn - I think John probably isn't aware of the level of artistic and scientific genius that is adjacent to him onstage either. Each of these men was a genius in other fields and they did this extraordinary work together. In artistic terms, it was in many ways a natural outcropping of the "Angry Young Men" school of British playwrights who gained fame in the 1950s.
These shows are just wonderful, before my time but wonderful.
I do know about 2/3s of the names who appear. These are just TV gold and that’s rare! !
I remember Robert Goulet mostly from the TV series "Blue Light."
Robert Goulet......Robert Gorgeous!❤⭐❤
Corinne Williams led an interesting life, from beginning life in a well-to-do family, to broken home, to tomboy, to drifter, to rodeo (staying with the men's association even when a women's association was formed) and singer/guitar picker. Here's a link to an article about her in the magazine "American Cowboy": books.google.com/books?id=wOoCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Corinne+Williams+rodeo&source=bl&ots=TWHkyrCJ0d&sig=Gtmz8YtPRQCqL56eUbnhfR8jNwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwib_bng6obeAhWhVt8KHZwsBtQQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Corinne%20Williams%20rodeo&f=false
While her arms didn't appear to be overly muscular (although she was hiding them somewhat with her wrap), her back appeared to be rather broad. And she experienced more than her share of injuries over the years. Here's another article about her. She was the real deal: slightdetour.blogspot.com/2006/02/cowgirl-corinnes-come-back-to-life.html
Her daughter, Bonnie, followed in her footsteps for a time.
Daly was only 48 years old when the first of three children with his second wife was born. Not meaning to be critical but this was 12-1/2 years after he started doing this show and his appearance hasn't changed much -- he looked like he was close to 60 when he started and still looks about the same. I was just surprised at how young he was at this point
Bennett, Arlene, and Dorothy were all older than John.
I had a similar reaction to this episode after researching the birth of his first child with Virginia.
Maybe he was taking that GERITOL! 😂
And all 4 sons were named John. Think I'm kidding?
"Anything except your god given assets" lol funny lines to the second contestant. 😄😄
*_ENTIRE CAST OF BROADWAY SHOW "BEYOND THE FRINGE"_*
*_PROFESSIONAL BRONCO BUSTER AND STEER WRESTLER_*
*_CONSTRUCTS CROSSWORD PUZZLES_*
look how young dudley moore and peter cook were :)
Interesting fact about JCD (as the birth of his son was mentioned here) from each of his two marriages he had two boys and one girl - in that order both times. Each of his four sons had the first name John; John Neale, John Charles, John Warren and John Earl Jameson. Both John Neale and John Warren - eldest in both set, carried their mother's maiden as their second name. John Earl carried his grandfather's. Don't know where the Jameson came from.
His daughters were Helene Grant and Nina Elizabeth (born 20 years, 5 months apart)
Jameson was an old family name - I want to say (but not 100% sure) that John's uncle had that name. The girls also had traditional names; Helene Grant (Buncy) Daly was named after John's mother, and Nina Elizabeth Daly was named after her mother's mother.
Dudley Moore and Peter Cook would later star in a movie called Bedazzled in 1967 (which would then be remade in another version starring Brendan Fraser and Elizabeth Hurley; Raquel Welch being in the original). The movie itself I didn't particularly enjoy, but I suggest it for those who'd like to see what the 60's looked like.
And on the subject of Dudley Moore, he was once married to one of THE most beautiful British actresses ever in Suzy Kendall (known for "To Sir, With Love").
***** The one who captivated me most recently is Sandra Dee in 'Imitation of Life'. That was a fantastic movie, I strongly recommend it to all. Fantastic performances from Lana Turner and Juanita Moore. Susan Kohner's I didn't find quite convincing, regardless of the fact she won a Golden Globe.
+Corleone That 1959 color movie (based on Fannie Hurst's novel) is very good, but I think that the 1934 black&white film, starring Claudette Colbert, Rochelle Hudson, Louise Beavers, Fredi Washington, Warren William, Alan Hale, and Ned Sparks (and directed by John M. Stahl), is light years better than it - and makes its points more effectively.
At 13:15, Buddy uses the expression "you son of a gun" to the contestant, and follows up with "Excuse me, Joey". He was referring to Joey Bishop, who frequently used "you son of a gun" in his performances. Joey used the line at least once as a panelist on WML, when it was his turn and there were 9 down and 1 to go. Joey had no clue about the contestant's line and said, "You're about to win $50, you son of a gun".
And Bennett sneezed at the beginning of the questioning of the last guest.
I was born on this day, so both my dad and John Charles Daly were new fathers when the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred. "Camelot" is a important play to me, and I saw Burton as King Arthur in the early '80s. And I do the crossword in The NYT every day.
The two crossword puzzle makers or editors on the NY Times that I remember were Will Shortz and Will Weng. Most likely I've worked on a puzzle or two by Jack Luzzato, but the name didn't ring a bell.
6:14 A couple of grim ironies on the show, given Dorothy's episode. Dr. Miller was a neurologist and Dudley Moore, the man sitting just in front of him was falsely accused of being a public drunk like his "Arthur" character. In reality, he had a deadly nerve disorder, progressive supranuclear palsy, which also killed Joshua Logan and Teresa Brewer.
krasnykavkaz No one here in the UK reported Dudley Moore's condition incorrectly. There was a Parkinson interview where he talked about difficulty playing piano and 'losing it'. After that I only remember sad news and solemn reports on poor Dudley over here.
Supranuclear palsy is also in the process of taking the beloved Linda Ronstadt. She's been out of the public eye for a long time, so we don't know how she's doing now, but I know she's already outrun the life expectancy. (as of Feb 20, 2023)
1:20 --- look closely at Buddy Hackett's introduction. He is nothing if not a complete professional and a trooper, which may account for why the producers used him regularly from 1962 to I think 1967. There are certain looks in his eyes that suggest he is bracing himself for anything.
soulierinvestments
Are you suggesting that Buddy might have suspected that something was not quite right with Dorothy that evening?
@@savethetpc6406 - No. He was not responding to any condition you are wrongly ascribing to Dorothy. I hate for people to continue to try to ruin Dorothy's reputation. She seems very normal, if smarter than most.
It’s up so then and I do now, buddy Hackett was that awful awful comedian. Reminds me of the kids in the back of the class always disrupting
Buddy Hackett, terrible terrible comedian an actor
I think the crossword puzzle man was pretty good and smart when he said "That's a moot point" in response to a question. Bravo! Usually contestants are so timid. I wonder if the panel was offended by such shows of confidence?
His tone when he said it was borderline offensive; he almost sounds angry at her.
That’s my great grandfather he was from the Bronx haha that’s why
RE: Dorothy’s incident in the introductions. I think she came with a snootful and got caught off guard by sneezes. Several points are now obvious that were not in November 1962. 1. Her alcohol and barbiturate addictions were spiraling her downward; they would result in her February 1963 hospitalization [for essentially detox.] 2. Apparently the producers / director were nervous about her - they did the show to keep her de-emphasized off screen. 3. Interestingly enough, notice that she looks good on screen for the rest of the broadcast; when she is on, she does well enough. 4. There might have been something in the air. Dorothy melts down into a sneezing jag and in the last game, Bennett [ 21:37 ] of all people! honks off a big wet sneeze.
So far the comments from folks here are pretty evenly split between all three of the usual explanations: sneeze, alcohol/pills, or TIA. Interesting.
Liar liar pants on fire. There's nothing wrong with Dorothy. So stop it.
I totally agree. Too many ersatz psychiatrists in these comment sections.
Most members of Monty Python have cited Beyond the Fringe as an influence
Sometime between the discussion of Mrs. Williams's fur stole and Arlene's glamorous fur (about 11 minutes in) and Mrs. Williams's exit (16:15) Arlene has taken off her own fur and draped it over the back of her chair. Under the hot TV lights of the era, I can imagine that Arlene was sweltering in it. Mrs. Williams's lightweight stole looks a bit silly (is she supposed to be keeping her elbows warm?) but at least better suited to the TV studio temperatures.
I am not at all familiar with Jonathan Miller or Allen Bennett. But IMHO Dudley Moore and Peter Cook teamed up as one of the funniest comedy duos I have ever seen. To those more familiar with Moore, to give you an idea of how funny Cook (or should I say, Sir Arthur Grebe-Strebeling ... or was it Sir Arthur Strebe-Grebeling?) was, in perhaps their funniest skit of all time, Moore plays the straight man in the routine. I am referring to "The Frog and Peach". th-cam.com/video/iuE_a1pTsO4/w-d-xo.html
I was 18 months old.
Robert Goulet, before he had his signature mustache.
He also had a full beard once during the late 80s'/early 90s'.
I thought Robert Goulet did a great job of disguising his voice -- so much so that I was expecting someone to think he was a female. Yet Bennett seemed to guess who he was before he even asked his first question -- how? I know he read the papers to see who was in town, but wasn't Robert Goulet usually in New York anyway at that point in time?
The day before my parents were married!💕
Angel Girl - Right after the Cuban Missile Crisis, so when John refers to these troubled times, he ain't kiddin'. The 10/16-28/62 crisis resolved by this date.
Sweet!
I hate when they introduce the last contestants while they only have 3 minutes left, especially when they have extremely interesting occupations (just like a gag writer once). They had like 10 bullfighters but that was the only crosswords puzzle maker, I would have loved to see the panel trying to guess it, especially given their intellectual predispositions, but no, even Buddy Hackett started with the wrong angle, they all thought it had to be a product so they ventured in the realm of a 'material' object. A really wasted opportunity.
Joe Postove mystery guests earned $ 500 as did guest panelists - unsure how much the regulars earned but John Daly earned $ 200,000 per year by the mid-50s
Yeah, that's definitely not right. Mystery guests and guest panelists did not earn the same fee. The panelists got more money because they were on for the entire show.
What's My Line?
Gil Fates' book clearly indicates what each person earned - Guest panelists were rarely the main draw - it was the mystery guests. Some mystery guests would insist on coming with either a spouse or a son/daughter and WML had to pay each of them $ 500.
BV See the other thread talking about this on this video. You're right, it's clearly indicated in the book. You're wrong that the guest panelists and the mystery guests got the same fee. It happens. I get things wrong all the time. If I could find the reference in the book easily, I would find it, but I've tried in the past and I don't have the patience. Fates specifically gives the argument that the guest panelists were paid more because they were on for the entire program, it's not my original thought.
Lot of money then
The shape of things to come 1963: some comics made distinguished appearance on WML for distinct periods. Ernie Kovacs, 1957. Joey Bishop 1959 - 1961. Shelley Berman 1960-1961. Peter Cook must have made an impression on the producers: in a few weeks, he would become the most memorable guest panelist of 1963. Period.
First time I've seen a 'line' of mine represented. I used to work on a puzzle magazine, and my master's thesis was on the syntax of cryptic-crossword clues.
JC Turner: I love crossword puzzles. I know that the puzzles in the New York Times get more difficult through the week, with the most difficult being on Fridays. Saturdays are a little less difficult than Fridays. And Sundays! I love those best.
Not only that, but I would love to read your master's thesis.
Those UK cryptic crosswords are real brain busters! 🤯
Over dramatizing a repressed sneeze by Dorothy was to give an impression that she may be on drug's was to manufacture a false scenario. Later when Cerf sneezed Maybe he was on cocaine ? In other words these were people that just sneezed period. P.S. I'm always pleased watching these shows (I have about 30 of them in my collection. I saw them when they first came out, well, around 1956 for me.) The young widow, I was thinking maybe her husband also was a bronc buster and met his demise that way or was in the war. Today whistling at her might be considered sexual harassment, though I doubt it. I shouldn't over dramatize the whistling, I suppose that would be like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I have watched this episode several times and believe Dorothy was trying to stifle a sneeze. Sometimes when I go to sneeze I often get this sharp horrible pain in my nasal area and my facial expression etc is quite similar to Dorothy's except before I sneeze my eyes get watery and know that the pain hurts and just want to cry until I either sneeze or stop the process of sneezing. I don't think she was drunk
Dorothy was a classy lady - please d0o not try to smear her.
Most of the time bennett knows who is in town and who is going to be there and THINKS it makes him look sssoo smart -- when actually it just spoils things for the rest of us!!
I don't agree at all. Part of what makes this show enjoyable is that the panelists, for the most part, were sharp, well informed about current events and serious about playing the game.
@@PrenticeBoy1688
is ok to disagree -- -- I think we are both right, just in different ways ! 🙂
I guess I just get frustrated when I want the fabulous guest star to stay around LONGER -- ya know
@@jt414 Well, we've both posted about our likes and dislikes. Being wrong or right doesn't really figure into this. I enjoy the regular rounds more than the celebrity rounds, and so I don't mind it when the mystery guest is found out quickly. The ordinary contestants whose voices are unknown to the panelists and who aren't getting paid a king's ransom to appear on the show are more interesting to me.
Well Dorothy certainly isn't drunk. Her behavior outside of this brief moment during the introduction seems perfectly sober and normal. I think the only thing that would explain this moment would be some sort of drug induced reaction, or a sudden mini-stroke. I've noticed in other previous introductions an awkwardness in subtleties of Dorothy's speech and other introductions. I really believe that these things have a correlation to her eventual mysterious demise 3 years later. I honestly think there was a health issue here exacerbated by a minor drug and/or alcohol abuse situation
Are you serious!! She was crazy drunk.
@@LarsRyeJeppesen - Are you serious? She was not.
@@shirleyrombough8173 she was a raving alcoholic
Dudley Moore!!! What a treat!!!
The comments on this episode are appalling. Dorothy SAYS, quite clearly, that she has to sneeze. TWICE. Considering she died well before her time, perhaps we can all show some empathy and sympathy to her? Video poster, What's My Line?, could you please delete these comments? They drag down a wonderful show that you're hosting.
These are the same people who are always pining about the good old days when everyone had class and was polite. Ironic, wouldn't you say?
Did mystery guests and first round celebrities get union scale for their appearances? I wonder what that was, if indeed they were paid that?
Mystery guests were paid, I think, $750 per appearance (I'm going by memory of what Gil Fates wrote in his book). Guest panelists got $1000. I've seen others say otherwise, but my memory is that Fates said that regular contestants didn't get paid, but they got a free trip to NY and a night in a fancy hotel, as well as the chance to appear on TV, and that's more than enough to offer to get all the contestants they needed.
My memory of Fate's book is that the guest panelists got 750 dollars and the mystery guests 500 but that is quibbling over what is essentially correct. The WML pay was probably close to scale, and Fates said it was enormously useful to set those fees because everyone could say they were getting top money [ . . . available. ] Fate's book said that when he produced "WML at 25," he officered union scale to pay people who appeared in the special 526 dollars if his or her kinescope bit lasted more than a minute.
soulierinvestments And do you remember what he said about whether the regular contestants were paid? I tried to find the section a while back and gave up, so I'm going by memory, but I'm pretty sure he said the non-celebrities weren't paid.
I remember reading that near the end of the run the regular panelists were getting 1,750 for the show. Can you imagine that? All of them had other lucrative things going on, but, wow, that's a lotta money for essentially showing up on Sunday night to play a game they all enjoyed!
What's My Line? I remember too that the Book was vague on that point. It implied they got the prize money.
I was TWO days old. 😊.
Aksarben isn't pronounced as John pronounced it...it's Ack-ZAR-ben.
This was one of the most interesting and personable array of contestants in one show in the 17-year history of WML? on CBS. Note how neither Corinne Williams nor Jack Luzzatto are shy about answering the panel's questions - or, particularly in Mrs. Williams's case, in asking for clarification of what a panelist meant.
I like Buddy Hackett's schtick at a guest panelist. He's very entertaining!
"Beyond the Fringe" had opened at the John Golden Theatre in New York City the previous Saturday, 27 October 1962 (a week after "Mr. President," speaking of recent Mystery Guests) - and it WAS a huge, long-running hit. It ran at the John Golden through Saturday, 30 May 1964 (during the World's Fair) - and then "Beyond the Fringe '65" opened at the Ethel Barrymore Theatre on Tuesday, 15 December 1964 and ran through Saturday, 9 January 1965 (kind of a "limited return engagment").
"Camelot" was then in the final couple of months of its successful initial Broadway production (opened on Saturday, 3 December 1960; closed on Saturday, 5 January 1963; a total of 873 performances) at the Majestic Theatre. I assume that Robert Peterson was then playing Lancelot du Lac on Broadway, since he is the only listed replacement in the role on IBDB.
My two cents in the discussion on Dorothy Kilgallen is that, in light of what we now know about the warning signs of a stroke, the contortion of her face and the peculiar slurring of her speech look to me as though she suffered a minor stroke while introducing Bennett Cerf.
Nothing special about Buddy Hackett
Weird. She needed to sneeze.
Regardless of what was the cause, this is still as disconcerting for me as it was the first time I saw it. The puzzled expression that captivates her face is quite saddening.
It must have been totally humiliating for her, and yet they carried on with the rest of the show completely without incident. That's professionalism. I love the small gesture Bennett made of grabbing her arm as if it to say, "don't worry about it" when he came on.
What's My Line?
I saw this in the youtube video of bizarre moments or somesuch. And I have never been able to watch that moment again. Mostly, because reading the comments on that really just broke my heart for Dorothy since she's clearly not inebriated and I just hate that so many people look for any sign of drunkenness with her. Good on Bennett for showing her a little love. (I don't care how he came off in that Oral History interview, everything else he wrote about her and how he is with her on the show totally contradicts it lol)
It looked to me as if Dorothy was simply trying to suppress a sneeze. Good grief, haven't we all done that?
Right after she said Bennett's name she said as an aside if you listen carefully I'm sorry I sneezed. It would have been easier and quicker just to sneeze but perhaps she was afraid of having mucus run visibly out and onto her mouth
Love and miss Dudley Moore. Get loss.
Michelle Ray he had a restaurant in Beverly Hills where he could play piano whenever he wanted. He rented a parking spot on an acquaintance’s driveway across the street so he could make a quick getaway if needed. He wanted to buy her house to put in a parking lot, but she wouldn’t sell.
It’s not unlikely that it was a TIA, but it’s difficult to know for sure. Another possible explanation is side effects of barbiturates, which we know she used. The drug was highly unpredictable even when used as prescribed, and peculiar effects could appear out of the blue in long term users. Often fine-motoric disturbances that didn't affect the patients cognitive abilities. It could be very unpleasant and frightening.
Steff2929again
You seem to know quite a bit about this. Do you have a medical background? I don't know much about neurology or drug interactions, but would it really be possible to have a mini-stroke and then continue on with the show as if nothing had happened? The idea that it was a side effect of the drugs she was taking, especially if combined with alcohol, seems plausible to me, but again, I'm far from a medical expert. I find it hard to believe that the simple act of holding back a sneeze would cause her to have such difficulty speaking, but it does seem likely that she would use that as an excuse to cover her embarrassment at what had happened. Then again, as others have noted, Bennett sneezed toward the end too, and he was sitting closest to Dorothy. Could it be that there was something in the air that not only brought on sneezing but could even have momentarily brought on Dorothy's strange speaking difficulty? (Come to think of it, Bennett had some difficulty speaking at one point also (starting around 14:37). I guess we'll never know what really happened, but I'm glad she was able to pull herself together for the rest of the show.
SaveThe TPC
I used to work with mental care. But not any more. It take its toll. I have seen the effects of barbs. And I recognise them. A horrible substance. Sometimes effective, but sometimes destructive and even fatal. They are still used, but with a much more narrow and sensible, in hospital, therapeutic window. For surgical sedation and sometimes as a treatment for severe strokes. You can have a TIA passing almost unnoticed. It's a tricky condition, quite hard to pinpoint. I don't believe this was a sneeze. Her facial expressions indicates something else. I have actually showed this to former colleagues and they come to the same conclusion. Bennett sneezing was most likely a sympathy action. In spite of all things said about his relation with Dorothy, I actually believe he felt sorry for her and wanted to help her out. He was probably quite shaken by the incident, just as Dorothy was. Bennett was most likely a very kind and caring man. A lot of people took barbs at that time, properly prescribed by unknowing doctors. He may have seen the effects before.
Steff2929again
Thank you for that explanation, and I think you're right about Bennett caring about Dorothy. I like him a lot, and it always bothered me that he made those negative remarks about Dorothy in an interview years after her death. It seems to be true that neither Arlene nor Bennett socialized that much with Dorothy outside of WML, but I can't imagine that they didn't all consider each other caring friends.
Wrong. We don't know that. If Dorothy were high on something she would not have been such an astute panelist. And she certainly would not have been so successful in coming so close to learning the identity of Kennedy's assassins. Close enough to get herself murdered.
- Too many junior psychiarists here. These behaviors supposedly observed in Dorothy were too subjective to classify medically without objectively observeable confirming data. So knock it off.
It's funny how Dorothy consistently asks questions about walking down 5th Avenue with it would people laugh at her. She seems extremely concerned about not fitting in and feels vital to her to remind everyone that she's on Fifth Avenue, and drops names and details all the time.
Buddy has sort of grown on me in terms of being smarter than I gave him credit for when guessing occupations. But it's really quite annoying when he continues to try to force for laughter, by that I mean he consistently puts his blindfold on sideways or upside down. Pretty much every single time. I get it, it's funny sort of, for once, Buddy but every time? They act like we've never seen that before, and poor John gets so irritated seeing him and those like him who keep doing these same things over and over.
It was a sneeze. She apologized to Bennett for trying to stop a sneeze.
Sadly, Dr. Miller died of Alzheimer's disease.
Obviously, by this time, the show's demographics are skewing older, with Geritol becoming a sponsor. Kellogg's and Geritol, well there you go. Geritol was the least scrupulous of all WML advertisers, at least those sponsors since 1962. Here the pitch is for strength but later it was for iron tired blood. By the 1970s the Federal Trade Commission had issued the largest fine in its history as of then against Geritol's then-manufacturer for false and deceptive advertising, grossly negligent bordering on reckless, which means that people took the product for conditions that Geritol could not possibly have benefited, with some level of risk.
Dudley Moore!
I could be quite wrong, but I get the impression Arlene Francis does not particularly like Corrine Williams.
Its a sneeze! Oh common give her a break!
Ugh, Peter Cook is so hot, it’s not fair
I JUST WISH I HAD BEEN GIFTED WITH ROBERT GOULET'S MAGNIFICENT SPEAKING VOICE. ON DOWN THE LIST OF MY FAVORITES
WOULD BE, IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER: ROBERT TAYLOR, JEFF CHANDLER, ALAN LADD, GEORGE FENNIMAN, CLINT WALKER, RONALD COLMAN, WILLIAM HOLDEN, BURT LANCASTER, ROGER MOORE AND
RICHARD BURTON.
WORST EVER: BUDDY HACKET!😨🥵😬🙉😵💫🥺😫
I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF HIS VOICE WAS "PUT ON" OR AN IMPEDIMENT.
I get the impression the crossword guy may have had Aspergers.
She had a drug addiction.
I think she was stiffing a sneeze. She could have had allergies.
If that was the case I would assume she would stop trying to talk through it. I cannot exclude it as a possibility though. Hopefully there's a viewer with a medical background that can give some ideas.
and not to mention, Bennett then sneezes towards the end! a sneezy panel lol
And here I've been thinking through all these episodes that "What's My Line?" is nothing to sneeze at!
Halcyon days for America -- JFK's Camelot years.
That's easy for you to say (1:51), lol!
Simply trying to stifle a cough or sneeze , that's all
And P.S. - not sure why, and it may not be fair, but.......there's just somethin' peculiar 'bout the Widow Williams!
Dorothy's unusual action in introducing Bennet seemed not to be drunkeness but something neurological. I am no doctor but I do have a MA in Psychology and have seen my share of unusual actions like hers due to neurological problems regardless of the cause. Sad to see.
Do you think her neck looks funny? Thyroid?
It sure looks and sounds like a TIA to me. It was pretty much generally speculated that her drug use was ramping up at the time; but if she'd been under the influence she wouldn't have recovered for the rest of the show. A looks a lot like a mini-stroke based on what I've observed.
Cough, sneeze, something caught in her throat........any of these plausible explanations could have been exacerbated by drug use. She obviously felt bad and apologized to Bennett.
For crying out loud. Give it a rest. It was a bloody sneeze, not a psychiatric event.
It looked like a transient ischemic attack, which is a minor stroke I guess.
definitely wouldn't surprise me if it was indeed a minor stroke. according to lee israel (her biographer), dorothy did have other medical problems, aside from her anemia (which was the culprit in dorothy fainting and ending up in the hospital).
Lorna Badeo
I didn't know about the anaemia. It adds a piece to the puzzle. An underlying haematological condition may explain it. Some of her other symptoms also point in that direction. Since they can be quite general in nature, and also may include neuro-psychiatric findings, it may very well have been dismissed as something nervous. A typical fate for many women at that time. It actually happens even today. If a doctor then prescribed barbiturates to "calm" her down, she ended up in a dangerous vicious circle. We now know that barbs tend to aggravate these conditions. It's just another theory, impossible to prove without proper testing. We will never know for sure, but I don't think she knowingly drugged and drank herself to death, not for a moment. She was too smart for that.
Steff2929again I don't think it's ever been suggested that Dorothy killed herself (suicide), has it? The debate-- if it can be called that-- has been over whether her death was an accident or a JFK-assassination-conspiracy-murder (which seems to be utterly baseless). Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the phrase "knowingly drugged and drank herself to death" in your comment. . . .
What's My Line?
I was referring to those who claim that she abused alcohol and drugs in a reckless and self destructive manner, implying that she had herself to blame. It's an opinion that pops up every now and then, and it makes me sad.
she definitely did not do it knowingly as far as her death is concerned. i highly recommend reading the Lee Israel biography on her. the last chapter goes through her last day/evening alive and the incredible show that was laid out after her death - from the first time she was found dead, to the second "first time" she was found dead. it took years of research for Israel to put the book together. the book does not sugarcoat Dorothy's life at all. she's neither a victim or martyr. until her death, when it really feels like she became a victim. the sad part is, she was getting to a really great place in her life, i believe.
Over the years, many many animals were slaughtered and suffered to make Arlene’s couture. 😢
Cerf was the most boring of all the panelists.
And a creepy perv cheater!
Bennett Surf often spoiled everyone else's fun on this show. What party pooper he was. Made me wonder if he cheated and could through is blinddold.
Not “Surf” but “Cerf”
@@johnpickford4222 I humbly stand corrected.
Of all the guest panelists that made semi regular appearances, its just my opinion, but Buddy Hackett is my least favorite
Look how she's holding herself up after Bennett introduces John! Drunk...
Edit: Plus she's silent while everyone else talks to the cast!
Wow, she sure sobered up fast. Look at her at 13:40 (12 minutes later). Holy sh*t, she was holding in a sneeze. I have to say though that after watching her Cerf introduction, it kinda seemed like a mini seizure or stroke.
She HAS been drunk on the show and did have an addiction, however. None of that changes the fact that she was murdered
Bennet Cerf had to be cheating to get Robert Goulet that quick! He cheated a lot on that show.
Yup. It's a well known fact according to books written by insiders of the show. His nosy wife would find out who the mystery guest was and she'd tell him.. Ever notice that he hardly EVER gets the normal guests?
Bennett had been tipped off with the celebrity guest. This happened countless times.
Almost like a little seizure.
She just freaking sneezed. Get over yourselves. Haven't you ever tried to suppress a sneeze?
after being put in her well deserved place by ustin0v, the shekel-hunter is in full effect in this ep again...
Your anti-Semitic tropes are most unwelcome
Huh?
After that sneeze Dorothy was in need of some comfort. Some Southern Comfort.
🤣
It does certainly not look like a sneeze. Unfortunately.
Well actually it does. OK?
@@peternagy-im4be
Am I allowed to see it different?
Thanks Peter!
@@elisabethlinz4256 y'all be having yourself a great day y'all
@@peternagy-im4be
This sentence is unintelligible for me.
Perhaps because I am no native English speaker.
Never mind.
At least it sounds funny.
Y'all be having yourself a great day y'all
Well I think that's the 1st time I ever saw someone run it down on there own. Run the category so to speak. Way to go AF.