Mindscape 154 | Reza Aslan on Religion, Metaphor, and Meaning
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2021
- Patreon: / seanmcarroll
Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
Religion is an important part of the lives of billions of people around the world, but what religious belief actually amounts to can vary considerably from person to person. Some believe in an anthropomorphic, judgmental God; others conceive of God as more transcendent and conceptual; some are animists who attribute spiritual essence to creatures and objects; and many more. I talk with writer and religious scholar Reza Aslan about his view of religion as a vocabulary constructed by human beings to express a connection with something beyond the physical world - why one might think that, and what it implies about how we should go about living our lives.
Reza Aslan received his Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is currently a professor of creative writing at the University of California, Riverside. He is the author of numerous books, including No God but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam; Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth; and God: A Human History. He has also worked in television, producing and writing documentaries, and serving as a consulting producer for the drama series The Leftovers. He recently started a podcast, Metaphysical Milkshake, with actor Rainn Wilson. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
No way... Reza Aslan... I remember this guy used to be so full of BS...
He still is!
Just to be very clear: the like I gave this video, is for professor Carrolls patience!
(And for keeping this one short)
Same I am impressed by professor Carroll's patience.
He is not only full of BS. I've noticed him being dishonest on many occasions as well. I'm going to listen to it simply because I wonder what a conversation between them could be like.
Atheist, when younger I used to dzy:I am agnostic.
That was only kindness.
Belief prevails over social kindness.
On the other hand I recognize religions are evolving a lot and maybe doing more than us, upgrading human condition...
I didn't see nothing so strange on both arguments, although of course I align with the distinguished host. Congrats.
I didn't see any reason or example for your statement: "I remember this guy used to be so full of BS... He still is!"
@@fz1205 "Used to be.."
For this podcast, Aslan has a PhD in sociology. Which he actually does have.
But on numerous occasions, he claimed he had a PhD in 'Historical Sociology', or 'Islamic Sociology', or 'Religious Sociology', or 'Theological Sociology'.
These distinctions matter, and are misleading.
I also think Aslan has badly distorted the facts about female genital mutilation, claiming it is not an Islamic problem.
And he easily labels anyone who objects to Islamic doctrine, as a 'bigot' or 'islamophobe'.
David Pakman Show, Reza Aslan cannot be trusted:
th-cam.com/video/E9RmAo6XVAA/w-d-xo.html
"He still is!"
Did you listen to this episode?
Aslan believes that we don't exactly obey the laws of physics, but there's spiritual intervention.
I don't.
Claims there's an evolutionary, universal impulse towards religious belief.
Says all things are god... What does that even mean?
Why use a term, that means everything and nothing?
Pantheism. A Realm beyond reality. Life after death.
Right...
He makes incoherent arguments. He believes that consciousness is purely created by the matter of his brain, yet also believes concioussness will continue once he is dead. He is both a dualist and a non dualist, and does not seem to see the contradiction. Dude is just clueless.
He said that consciousness is an imprint left into the universe by matter. You might need a matchstick to get a fire going, but you don't need it to keep the fire going. Even b-theorists like Sean would say that there's no fundamental difference between the present and the future.
sounds like he's a) trying to please everyone b) disturbed.
@@HarryNicNicholas Instead of using adjectives to oppose someone, you can use arguments!
@@jokusekovaan yeah but you do need oxygen
@@jokusekovaan and you also need something to burn, more importantly
I feel like Reza is always trying to phrase his responses so they’d look good on an Etsy pillow
ROFL
Thank you for putting this feeling into words.
lolll
lol. perfect. "i'm in bed with god" "follow me as i go down" "fluff my pillows"
That’s how most things are
I like how Reza took a shot at Sean and said “you’re just thinking outside the box” then Sean fired back with his work in a science journal about consciousness
Reza, starting sentences with “again” and over-annunciating doesn't strengthen an argument.
Neithe-rr-uh doess overprohnouncinnnggg.
Fully agree with you, B LC.
The lack of ideas, for goodness sake.
he appears to be another guy with no life who had a bang on the head and now thinks he can see the workings of the universe. christ, now he's talking in metaphors....
Cheap sheeps crying
Again, you found a little reason to question his arguments? Honestly I read a lot of comments here and yet to find a real valid argument to show any part of his ideas being wrong!
@@fz1205to me he’s idea is not wrong, just not provable. Maybe someone with a better understanding of the brain can reject him, but even for a layman like me he’s explanation of spirituality is too generic so I don’t see a reason to believe in it since anyone can make a claim like this.
lol Sean kinda wrecked him without even saying anything
Best thing to do is stay quiet... He wrecks himself the more he talks
When you conflate scientism with science's ability to explain most things, there's not much else that your counterpart needs to do to prove that you're either disingenuous or probably just a self-important moron.
@@g0lanu aslan, named for the lion who represents jesus in another fiction, uses the words "i" and "me" just about the right amount for someone who spends too much time staring at his belly button.
@@HarryNicNicholas Instead of using adjectives to oppose someone, you can use arguments! (2)
I think Aslan's argument was much more sophisticated than Carroll's. Carroll is just repeating whatever most of New Atheists saying. At the end Carroll had to admit that Reza's argument is in fact correct. Most of those who oppose Aslan in here have not read any of his books so, they are not familiar with his methodology.
Did cannibalism come up during the podcast?
there was a plane crash...
I'm only listening to hear Sean's point of view.
You shouldn't go into it that way; go in open minded.
Don't worry, you'll still be as disappointed with Reza as you were anyway
@@deeptochatterjee532 Hahaha! Great stuff.
I don't think so many people may change their mind by watching a conversation but, as an atheist I learned a lot about Dr. Aslan's perspective.
Mr Aslan is still not quite ready to shed the rest of the fluff that gets him cornered.
This was tough to listen to.
(1) Reza isn't concise. Maybe an artifact of he himself being a podcaster?
(2) Reza seems to think his take(s) are a lot more sophisticated than they are. He sounds like Joe Rogan with a bit more intellect. Ugh.
Sean: be careful with guests who themselves don't have day jobs. The world doesn't need more input from people who are merely self-promoters / talking-heads.
Yep, both Joe Rogan and this man Reza Aslam are very overconfident about their perspective.
Yes.. that was my impression as well. Reza seemed to have little to offer I hadn't heard 100 times before, more often in the pub after a prog-rock gig than in any sort of academic setting. It might have been more interesting had Sean had the discussion with a real muslim which, despite his claim, it is clear Reza is not. While the old-time Sufis might have related to shared experiences through a common language of 'metaphors', that has nothing to do with modern Islam.
@@robertstanley5555 you are not the grand arbiter of who is and who isn't a "real muslim"...
not only is he not concise, he's just talking to say something. he has no actual train of thought
Yeah, this dude seemed very impressed with himself. Which is in stark contrast with Sean Carroll who is humble, kind, and quality-all-the-way... Sean, you were very patient with this BS-er..
Ugh. What a blow hard. Thanks for your patience Sean, you allowed Reza space to reveal his vacuousness.
This was a really good show.
Well done 👍
Lol, Reza's arguments were disappointing and intellectually dishonest. He speaks with such confidence on scientific things while it is apparent, based on what he says, that he does not understand them...
"Matter in eternal"
lol, have you never heard of the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
Felicidades Sean, tú paciencia es infinita, hablar con charlatanes y mantener la compostura es algo que debo aprender.
Saludos desde México!
Prof. Carroll: 27:18 "...turn god off for a moment." I love when a human says that.
Didn't Harris bury this guy a long time ago? wtf
Maybe, but would i really want to listen to a guy like Harris? He hypothesizes about scenarios for justified genocide of Muslims with nuclear weapons
@@MrFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa No, he doesn't. What an idiotic comment.
@@SuperSpeedMonkey he indeed used to do that. He has since changed his stance and has apologized.
@@blackbordeaux9741 Stop spreading lies. Show me where Harris justifies genocide, and show me the apology... good luck. How is that you can interpret his writing in such a ridiculous way, but when Hamas writes an entire political doctrine that commits to killing every jew on earth no matter how it takes, it just goes right past you? Please wake the f-up.
@@SuperSpeedMonkey lol you are deluded.
"The religious impulse is something you are born with" Hard disagree with that one, and I'm out. This guy is a clown.
No, I'll have to agree with that. Religion is something a lot of people believe in, and it was present in humans pretty early on. Possibly a result of an overactive pattern matching module.
Whether it means religion is right is another thing.
@@vampyricon7026 yes, but not everyone is born with it as Reza Aslan was saying. It’s an unsubstantiated claim and easy to falsify.
@@raymondluxury-yacht1638 where did he say that not everyone is born with it? (or an extremely small majority are not born with it) i thought i remember him saying it can be actively suppressed, but nothing beyond that
@@calldwnthesky6495 Yes, you are correct, my comment was poorly worded.
@@vampyricon7026 "Religion is something a lot of people believe in"
Because the overwhelming majority of them have been indoctrinated from birth to believe in a deity.
Atheist to religious obviously exists, but here again, most come from religious families.
can you call yourself a muslim or any other religious sect and then
just change things around to fit what you personally believe is the truth?
@Mike Siler1 ..agreed and i wont even call you an idiot
i was hoping he was going to explain to us
how he literally went outside "the box" as he says...maybe its true but how would you know if its just your brain inside the box thinking it was outside the box... bizarre for sure
why does he even call himself a muslim if he doesn't believe in a personal god, hell, objective morality? maybe he's not an atheist but he sure as hell isn't a muslim.
because he's making a point that fundamentalist muslims (and you) don't get to determine what qualifies as "muslim". i'd prefer that he were just an atheist but i think his public statement that he is essentially a "liberal" muslim sends a more palatable and positive message to a lot of young muslims out there
@@calldwnthesky6495 if you were to poll a billion muslims, how many do you think believe in an actual hell? and how many do you think would consider another person still muslim if that person claimed not to believe in hell? it's hard coded into the belief system, the quran isn't considered metaphorical but actually believed to be the immutable and direct word of allah. i assure you that number would be close to a billion in both cases, so what you are really saying is that the vast vast vast majority of muslims are fundamentalist? cultural judaism, is an established thing. cultural islam is not, arguably can't be ever but at the very least won't be anytime soon, mainly because despite what reza says, about a billion muslims say 'lol' to the concept.
@@f4zkh4n i posted a comment that was blocked because i called a spade a spade. lots of youtube channels don't allow that kind of honesty though. i'll soften it up a little and say you are a propagandist... whether you're paid or not for it, that's what you are... and worse. you miss my point entirely because you've got a script "coded" into that brain of yours that you will parrot incessantly. what you really want is that slippery slope to bigotry and hate and that tired old mob mentality... "muslims are violent because they're muslims". that way western power can justify their crimes against humanity in the middle east. young people - even in the muslim world of the middle east - can and will push progress. it's folks like you who stand in the way of that
@@calldwnthesky6495 whoa bit of a leaping tangent. everyone who questions you is a propagandist? i'm talking about the wishy washy clown that is reza azlan and how reliably those who defend religion have to turn into 'vague deists' when engaging with anyone remotely rational to stand even a miniscule chance of not being laughed out of the room. and even then...
religion is just one factor in geopolitical struggles or outright oppression. and sure, western power is guilty of a damn lot, and stoking religious animosity is old tactic used by all powers regardless of their present compass direction. none of that is really relevant to the conversation here, or even something i disagree with you on. and nothing i've said previously means i'm a fan of the relentless military industrial complex. but you claimed particular mainstream positions in islam as purely 'fundamentalist', that was just outright incorrect. no need to whiteknight islam as a mellowed out modern belief system, because WAR. mainstream islam is not the hippy dippy free for all aslan and you make out. it is possible and i would argue necessary to criticise religion and the religious, one can do this without being racist. for the record, this isn't about nationalism, i got love for all people (after coffee) but their supernatural beliefs can rot back in the iron age where they were conceived. all other things equal, islam has much more mellowing out to do than the other abrahamic religions partly because is was created by design to be resistant to later modification. generally speaking, even muslims born and raised in the west are still far more homophobic/misoginistic in their attitudes than their christian or jewish counterparts, who also haven't exactly adapted with the times all that gracefully either.
Oh shit! Gotta get that mindscape merch
I watched the entire video and enjoyed seeing the respect paid by both participants to each other. Thank you Professors Aslan and Carroll for sharing your perspectives.
I am an Iranian and we know, this vile creature is extremely stupid and a supporter of the terrorist regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and completely against the people of Iran who have been taken hostage by that sullen dictatorship Mullah's regime
Very much enjoy these videos further exploring religion ideology with different perspectives. Though certain things could have been put in a less condescending manner. Great talk on both sides.
Jeez this guy makes no sense whatsoever
wordsalad, hippie wordsalads for everyone
Faith you're born with but unfaith needs to be actively acquired...I'm paraphrasing Mr. Aslan...and he supports this statement by referring to some archeological findings.
But we all know how children are being indoctrinated into faith and religion of their parents mostly. It seems to me that if the faith was the default state, this indoctrination, continued throughout the whole life basically, wouldn't be necessary.
agreed. i think Reza is more clever than people take him to be. he comes across as an atheist at heart in a strong sense but i think what he is really trying with a constructive approach to do is release young people (in the muslim world primarily) from the shackles of fundamentalist-type religiosity (i think this is essentially what Irshad Manji does too - though both she and Reza might get upset in some way at that view). anyway, it's often how it goes in the christian world as well. very "liberal" religiosity often leads to atheism and the realization that you can have a moral compass and a decent, thoughtful life, with plenty of meaning, WITHOUT theism
I'm apparently not as hostile to Aslan as a lot of people in the comments here but I was frustrated by some points.
1. He says that polling shows atheists are, as a group, exceptionally moral, but later argues religion deserves to be kept around despite the harm it does because it amplifies some of the better aspects of our nature. Well, if that were true, why aren't religious people more moral?
2. The argument that we should be religious because our brains are "designed for it." But since I gather he means "designed" by evolution, that's just an appeal to nature fallacy.
did he actually say religion "deserves" to be kept around? ...i don't remember that, so if you could provide an estimated time frame, i'd appreciate it. to your second question - where did Aslan say we "should be religious"?
Reza is first and foremost a postmodernist, that’s why he has to deconstruct something for twenty minutes before answering. At around the 22:00 minute mark when he’s asked for the third time if he believes in god, he says it depends what you mean by god. Okay, except 1 - a moderately educated high schooler in the West could understand that conceptions of god differ 2 - the mere fact that conceptions of god differ doesn’t actually prevent you from acknowledging the commonly-understood definition, which is a supernatural agent.
The irony in this is that he himself tries to give an evolutionary explanation for faith by appeal to the hyperactive AGENCY detection device + the fact that humans perceive minds intuitively… again, this is classical theism, a disembodied mind. Those evolutionary explanations presuppose a somewhat robust definition of god, but when asked, reza wants to play the definition card.
This is definitely a conversation worth having and I think is generally more important at this time in our history than many of the more, dare I say it, trivial conversations/guests you have had recently. You did a masterful job in this discussion despite the smarmy and duplicitous nature of your guest.
This guy became depak Chopra of İslam
I am an Iranian and we know, this vile creature is extremely stupid and a supporter of the terrorist regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and completely against the people of Iran who have been taken hostage by that sullen dictatorship Mullah's regime
@@navidazadi4280 been many times to Iran lovely people , suffering from regime and the regime supporters .
🙏
@@ACATALTEPE Thank you very much, Greeting
this is so unexpected...
It's disappointing Sean has intellectual integrity and engages in good faith with those he disagrees with, Reza doesn't
Liked for Seans questioning but sorry, I just don't get any of the "out of the box" stuff. I hope the next few Mindscape podcasts are hard science just to wash this out of my brain. Sorry also if this comes off as derisive towards Mr Aslan but I find his arguments empty.
You got it... Wolfram... very enjoyable episode.
I'm putting this on my 'Watch Later' list
Hopefully, you'll be too busy and will forget about it.
@@jps0117 Thankfully I was and I did..
I have had dealings with this deceitful islamist in the past, he has nothing to say that could be of interest to me any longer.
@@nigelbrayshaw2709 Good for you.
I was reading through comments during Sean's intro. I was ready to make a very snarky commeny on mr. Aslan, but I can see I really don't need too.
I'm sorry to say I only lasted 25 minutes, Reza Aslan is so full of B.S.
So, do you believe in A GOD. That's what people mean when they ask if you believe in god. And you know that wery well you.......
This man is much more certain about his world view than I am
... about his or my own
A bit off-topic but I keep trying to place Prof Carroll's voice. He has a great 60's dating game-style radio personality voice. Reminds me of a combination of Monte Hall, Wink Martindale, Bob Eubanks, Bert Convey, Chuck Woolery, and Chuck Barris of the Gong show.
This gives me an idea for a high-brow game show that he could host : Name that formula. :)
Great episode Sean! Thanks
Great episode. I especially agree that religion, just as lack of it (areligiousity?) are on equal "moral" grounds, that is, neither predisposes the individual for good or evil. But since religion has a much longer history of political and social presence, it's now impossible to decouple the spirituality from rituality, traditions, community, the lexicon of 'metaphores', the history of wars and peaces in its name etc. The only grounds for comparison between the two viewpoints presented is spirituality.
Just as the episode with Anthony Pinn, the guy really makes some great points, and I'm saying this as a non-religious person.
Looking at other commenters, it seems too easy to let your prejudices against the person affect the judgement of his ideas
@@spindoctor6385 what???? where and when did he display this ignorance and arrogance that you claim? the guy is university educated here in the states and so for you to claim, that as he speaks (for a large part of this interview) on the subject he chose to make the focus of his university degrees, he's as ignorant as someone with a drinking problem makes you a maximal drama queen
@@spindoctor6385 yeah you're a spin doctor alright. and a drama queen for sure. maybe you could point to where i said "there's no ignorance or arrogance in the world of higher education" ??? here's what i'm actually saying (so pay attention this time): it's so very drama fueled to say Aslan displays the arrogance and ignorance (in this interview) of someone with a drinking problem... full stop. nothing else mentioned. try answering the question i asked in my previous comment (you know the sentence with the "?" at its end) instead of fantasizing about what i said and then attacking that fantasy (strawman if you want to call it that). so have at it, hard as that may be for you, with all the fantasies filling that drama queen head of yours
@@spindoctor6385 are you a religious person (aka person of faith) or are you an atheist? i ask because it seems Reza is the target of a significant amount of hostility coming from BOTH of these groups and so it is not so easy sometimes to distinguish between these two varieties of critics. I believe you are a religious person, mainly because you appear to take issue with the "cognitive by-product" hypothesis for the "religious impulse".
The conversation with Reza (his name is in the title of the video by the way) does not start until after the 5 minute mark in this video though I'm assuming here that the podcast starts with and includes Sean's introduction. At about 8:10 Sean asks Reza a question meant (I think) to spice up the conversation right off the bat and the basic gist of that question is this: if you were faced with a dichotomy in defining your mindset as it relates to debating "deep" or complex philosophical questions, would you fall on the side of "let's all get along" or "i have the answers and i'm right". Reza responds that he would lean more toward the side of "i have the answers and i'm right". I think that's an honest answer and one that we could all feel comfortable providing in response to the given question.
Reza is talking to Sean even though he knows Sean and he will disagree in some areas so your claim that "Reza is not interested in talking to anyone who does not believe in his version of what is right and wrong" is very obviously misinformed.
Reza goes on to say that there are *CERTAIN* things he considers so obviously right or wrong that when it comes to those things Reza will not give ground or audience to people he believes do not understand such elementary moral principles (he puts this in less refined terms of course). The example he gives is someone "refusing to acknowledge basic humanity"... which by the way, in this context and virtually all others that i'm aware of, "basic humanity" is an idea which does not require disambiguation through some specific definition... at least not by mentally healthy adults, it doesn't.
As far as his mention of the religious impulse having no evolutionary benefit i think he gives a glimpse into his understanding of that debate around 19:39. He chooses to credit those who study this question specifically through the lens of cognitive science. Aslan's achievements in higher education (BA in religious studies, masters in theology - which I assume focuses on religious history, since that's much of what he writes about - and a PhD in sociology) would put any work that cognitive scientists have done on this subject, within Reza's area of interest. The wiki page on cognitive science of religion states that the discipline relies rather heavily on evolutionary psychology. Considering these points i don't think i could take your claims (or those of your drunk friends) on this subject anymore seriously than Reza's...
@@spindoctor6385 i didn't say he receives "the same criticisms". stop drinking in the pub and start reading more carefully.
strange assertion? again, stop going to the pub. religious people criticize him for not being faithful enough, atheists criticize him for having faith at all... and BOTH seem to criticize him at times for not being supportive enough of western power.
so you're agnostic? great, so you're everyone on the planet then. no wonder you're so uninteresting.
you originally said (without having any previous knowledge of him and based on only a part of this interview) that Reza is "as ignorant and arrogant" as someone who's had too much to drink... but now you say you have a neutral attitude toward him ("i have no personal like or dislike for the guy"). seems a bit contradictory don't you think? or are you getting cold feet here and backpedaling on your original sentiment? by the way, that you continue referring to him as "the guy" or "that guy" when his name is clearly in the title of the video (and i've included it a number of times in my comments) is a minor curiosity.
you've had "many more interesting, inciteful (that's "insightful" btw, though you've probably had some "incite-full" conversations too) and respectful conversations in the pub than what I heard here." yeah that would be at least part of the reason why you're leaving disparaging comments on youtube and Reza is being interviewed by Sean Carroll
@Alpha Centauri The last line of my comment was not based on a single comment: "verbal diarrhea", "full of bs", "I disagree and this guy is a clown", "I'm only listening to Sean's point of view" -especially that they get many likes. Pretentiousness and equivocation are traits of the _form_ and not the _content_ of his arguments, (which of course you can criticize) similarly the fact that he ate a brain has nothing to do with anything. While I _can_ see valid criticisms of his ideas, they are a minority within the comments.
The two guys here arguing, top kek, this is an example of how _not_ to have an argument
A very interesting conversation! I was sorta with Aslan up until he attributed the civil rights and anti-war movements to religion which I find ridiculous.
I decided to abort this episode (first one I've not listened through) barely half an hour in. This because of all the categorical statements from the guest that was either incoherent, blatantly false or nonsensical. I usually enjoy having fruitful discussions about religion with both atheists and religious people alike, but I don't think I would have had a the stomach for a prolonged conversation with this particular guy.
After reading some comments here I might give it another chance, after all Dr. Carroll is still his usual brilliant and patient self :)
Great podcast btw, Dr. Carroll :) I have listened to every single episode so far, and come away from almost every single one with new knowledge or insight. Thank you!
Be open minded people, and fact check everything 😉
But not too open-minded, or Aslan might eat your brains.
@@Emanresu56 no worries with you since you have no brains
@@calldwnthesky6495 I don't trust people who eat human brains. I don't think that's too crazy. Seems pretty reasonable.
Mind open since I was 12 - 13, and ready to reject people like Reza and others. My primitive intellect cannot follow their reasoning.
@@Emanresu56 now we're moving into the territory of state religion... in this case, the state religion here in the united states.
Aslan likely upsets power here in the u.s. because he is a dissident (not unlike Noam Chomsky for example). anyway, it's probably why i hadn't even heard of this "brain eating" fuss, because i pay just about zero attention to corporate media here in the u.s. (largely a propaganda machine - pumping out large quantities of half truths and sometimes worse). when i do a google search on this Aslan story the only thing that's returned is a great deal of fuss over the HORROR! of it all - and of course the constant insinuation that Aslan must therefore be a horror himself. yet in the time since this spectacle, he seems to have still garnered public speaking appearances with upstanding people in attendance (including senior citizens who are among your more conservative folks) and has found an audience here with Sean Carroll... so i'm already thinking that this brain eating thing is being blown way out of proportion (or at least there's a concerted effort to blow it way out of proportion).
don't underestimate what can happen if you offend the wrong people (which Aslan has been doing way before this fuss over brain eating) - esp when those people wield a large chunk of power.
i was interested in Reza's response to all the HORROR! but that is virtually nowhere to be found in the mainstream and has therefore been relegated to his facebook page and i haven't been on facebook in years so i began the process of creating a new account during which facebook told me i had violated their community standards (LOL!!!) so i was required to request a review (which i did not). not sure how i could have violated their community standards when i haven't been part of the community for almost 10 years. LOL!! ...and the year or so i was on facebook i had posted a few pics of hikes i'd done in the southwestern U.S. and virtually nothing else.
anyway, i'm not so disturbed by what Aslan did. i don't believe the fate of the person whose brain he sampled was linked in any way to the ritual he participated in. furthermore, i would eat a piece of a human body (including the brain) if it were fully cooked (and of course if the person who would be sampled agreed to such an experiment sometime prior to their death and if that same person's fate was in no way linked to my eventual consumption of part of their body) just to prove to overly sensitive people that if you eat the flesh of other animals like cows and chicken and fish and extract nutrients from them then the same applies for eating human flesh - your body will extract the useful nutrients from it. we mammals are made up of the same stuff... and if you really want to go into it - ALL life is made up of the same essential stuff. would i eat human flesh more than once? ...of course not. but hell, it makes me think that i should allow for the eating of my bicep or something if i pass prematurely so people might have their chance to get over the idea that in death we are somehow above other creatures of this planet and could not be useful for consumption or fertilizer etc.
but i know you want to cash in on the HORROR! of it all so you can disparage Aslan. i don't know who you are and what is motivating you but you are clearly all about degrading Aslan in anyway you can. typical response to a dissident from an adherent of state religion
Isn’t stress relief as an extension of socialization something that makes religion evolutionarily advantageous?
but what i remember Aslan saying was that religion, by his lights, creates more stress... not less. that to me seems intuitive since i am an atheist. i might say atheism can create stress but it's constructive, while "religious" stress is not
@Arjun Chakraborty atheism to me provides motivation to promote the common good. as much if not more than i ever felt as a former "christian"...
Hello Professor Carroll.
Reza Aslan .... I know him from some documentarys about religions (one of the most strange one was that he ate human brain in India, just for science!!)
It should be great and challenging interview, thank you professor.
The tripartite scheme that Prof. Carroll begins to discuss at 27:25 was pioneered by the anthropologist Alfred Kroeber (who created the Dept. of Anthropology at Berkeley) in 1917: the inorganic, the organic, and the superorganic. The latter referred to the state of meaning resulting from the evolution of the human neurological system and the origin and evolution of language. Inorganic and organic substances, prevalent throughout the universe do not process "meaning". Humans, however, do, and this is the "superorganic."
How does Reza support the statement that we have a universal impulse to religion and that it's opt out? That sounds kind of made up.
read his book i would think it's a good place to start
@@calldwnthesky6495 Thanks for the recommendation.
This was genuinely fascinating.
I think Aslan's argument was much more sophisticated than Carroll's. Carroll is just repeating whatever most of New Atheists saying. At the end Carroll had to admit that Reza's argument is in fact correct. Most of those who oppose Aslan in here have not read any of his books so, they are not familiar with his methodology.
I'm not an atheist, but my atheist friends are really cool.
as long as they hate Reza Aslan right??
@@calldwnthesky6495 Controversy can be learned from. Don't hate, appreciate. I recommend some Ozzy Osbourne - Dreamer.
@@Kaewin5510 They just are nice, or they wouldn't be my friends. The three major western religions are highly mysogynistic. For example, the Bible speaks about the Whore of Babylon in revelation...but no one seems to be concerned about the men who were with her. It always seems to be 'her' fault.
@@Kaewin5510 Many experiences of paranormal nature as well as surviving death dozens of times when I shouldn't have.
@@Kaewin5510 Experience.
Does Reza think that consciousness could be reduced to its most fundamental levels and be a functioning consciousness... pantheism?
Several commenters wrote, to the effect that "Religion... was present in humans pretty early on" (as one commenter wrote). This is incorrect. In fact, it comes quite late in human biocultural evolution. Our genus, Homo, is roughly 2 million years old (H. erectus), though if you accept habilis as being within our genus, then it goes back somewhat further. So, out of this roughly 2 million years, there is no evidence of religion until less than 50,000 years ago. If I have calculated this correctly, this is only 2.5 percent of the time of our genus. Now, if one prefers to use only our current species, Homo sapiens, with evidence for our species going back 300,000 years (Anatomically Modern Humans), then we show evidence of religion for only about 17 percent of our existence. In either case, religion was NOT "present in humans pretty early on", as one commenter wrote. On a different note, I appreciate Prof. Carroll's ability to carry out a podcast with such a person as this guest. Aslan is not a serious inquirer to the human condition, but rather an internet user who wants to be an influencer. In his way, which he claims is Sufism, he speaks the goofy language of Deepok Chopra. His god is "pure existence" (Ommmmm... hand me another joint).
Enjoyed this episode!
Slow week? High? Brain damage? ;)
@@jps0117 I wish you a good day, my friend :)
@@makhalid1999 Thanks! You too!
I wish Sean had asked Reza about before life after hearing that Reza thinks that he will continue to be there in after life in significant sense. Of course by the virtue of past to present to future every physical thing leaves traces in the universe however small. That is why/how future turns into past. The traces are left in the universe by its constituent parts which can be perceived later in the present. And these parts can be living and non-living e.g. Water carves the rocks as it flows and leaves grand canyon. These traces (which for human activities are called memories) is why we or present universe remembers the past. It is almost a trivial fact and invocation of extra-physical spirituality is superfluous. It does not follow. The analogy of the drop of water getting mixed into ocean is closer or even identical to that trivial phenomenon and in fact is a metaphor for opposite of Reza was then inferring or implying from the example.
If Reza agrees that before he was born there was some essence of Reza at least he will be consistent.
Aslan is confused. He is Not a muslim, he is not a Christian or a jew, nor is he a Sufi of any kind. He calls himself a pantheist, and so cant be Sufi or Muslim. At the same time he cant be a pantheist if he ascribes to Islam. He is nothing and needs to learn more philosophy.
He is simply confused. Stop writing books, and maybe go read a few more books.
i don't think he said he is "sufi"... i believe he said he was most *interested* in the Sufi tradition. and while we're on the subject, when were you appointed spokesperson for the 1 billion or so muslims of the world, in terms of deciding who is qualified to self-identify as such?
@@calldwnthesky6495, because I read the definition of Islam.
It's like saying you are Christian but you don't believe Christ even existed.
@@yaserthe1 ah so you're just the sort of person the world really could do without. and i don't buy your analogy one bit. how about get over yourself, puny little human. who do you think you are? laughable
@@yaserthe1 get over yourself
I don't think this guy knows the laws of physics enough to think we should change them
For a satisfactory conversation about the nature of meaning and religion I would go full throttle and interview Alan Moore, the comic book writer. He is truly interesting and original.
I believe he is an idealist, because he gives a lot of importance to the part in our imaginations relating what we call reality, yet I cannot word his views without entering “the wacko zone”. thankfully he is very articulate, and as I said, full of very interesting and original ideas.
Oh, and he worships a 4th century god in the form of a snake or sth of the sort.
If someone starts as Muslim, converts to Christianity and then back to Muslim, do you expect a coherent thesis on the nature of religion?
Tight race going on between upvote and downvote buttons! Who will prevail?
Does Reza pray?
If he does its definitely only in cuss words :)
How to win argument with religious person?
Let him talking.
Moral subjectivist, pantheistic Muslim, previously a Christian.. This guy must be a king of cherry picking. 😅
better than a "king" of a muslim (or christian) theocracy
Tanko sean. Can I offer you big anser to planit erth riddels?
Yes please
@@j82man10 we got buk. Plese reed and edukate!
@@onlyonetoserve9586 ben reeding Good buk. Do you gave favoret vurs?
Belief itself is often the culprit of irrational behavior coming from the mind. If you have "belief" or "belief in" as part of your thought system, then basically "anything goes," and this includes (or rather demands) the banishment of rational thinking, and precludes any need or desire for rational thought. The speaker here is soaking in it!
Science allows for any question to direct us towards a logical conclusion, or result, or answer, and as a result of this pursuit or quest for truth, it is always willing to change with regards to new evidence; religion, on the other hand, begins with "The Answer" (God Did It . . . ALWAYS), and then proceeds with whatever is necessary to support and thus maintain this allusion/illusion to actual truth. And when truth, knowledge, and facts become debatable and are abandoned by society, people often go from that sad state of not knowing, and ultimately regress to the abysmal condition of not wanting to know.
To merely "believe in" something often reveals the purest form of childhood acceptance, ignorance, indoctrination, brainwashing, and indifference; to wit: One who "believes in" Easter Bunnies, Dragons, or Tooth Fairies. When we get older, we should "put away our childish things" (1 Corinthians 13); things such as superstitions, silly dogmas, and other related beliefs. People ought to stop "believing in" talking snakes and flying horses. And so when asked, "Well, then, what do [you non-theists] believe in?" the question itself is an absurdity; and even if it did have any semblance of meaning, a non-theist (or atheist, or anti-theist) would never 'think' to even ask it, or never ask it in such a delusional fashion or manner.
The "true-believer" or theist's final rebuttal upon encountering someone who is a non-theist or an atheist often ends up as the superficial ultimatum of, "Well, so what DO you believe in?" is therefore tantamount to asking, "Well, so then where DO you get your superstitious and nonsensical ideas from?" It is the WRONG question to ask because any willingness to dwell upon it involves being irrational from the very beginning! And therefore, the theist who shows a genuine interest in examining this illogical thought process totally misses the point: secular thinkers do not so much "believe in" things as they "experience" things and/or "know" things, such as they would experience gravity as reality; the non-theist does not therefore have to "believe in" it. For example, non-theists "experience" a round Earth; they do not "believe in" an Earth that is round. This is a huge difference in the framework of thought that takes place in the mind of those who are not indoctrinated or brainwashed into a specific sect or group of theism. - j q t -
I always think of religion as a collection of memes
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Does Reza like The RZA?
As Sean claims it is perfectly acceptable to talk about different emergent levels of perception. I can see where there is an emergent level of the mind, bound by chemistry that does reveal information outside of the chemistry/geometry of the universe.
I cannot say that its true, but i can see it being a possibility. Something that i think Reza is trying to get at.
Wow Aslan stumbled in his explanations. I suspect, or it sounded like to me, he was nervous in the face an accomplished physicist who is not easily fooled. Though, I know he regularly engages with them, his nerves were on full display. For example, his hesitation and awkward, "Let's take it to its most scientific level" in reply to the question of life after death came across as though he didn't want to categorically state he believed in it, but extemporaneously tried to ground it on the turf of Dr. Carroll. And it did not work--at all. Why? Too simplistic. No physicist would accept his overly simplistic interpretation of the first law of energy.
Can all you Reza Aslan haters in the comment section just calm the fuck down? Stop being so hysterical. If you are fans of Sean Carroll you should follow his lead and be open-minded.
As a Muslim I disagree with Sean about God, but I do respect him and his work, and really enjoy mindscape.
As for Aslan he is simply confused. He contradicts himself constantly. He believes in God, yet states his belief is caused by evolution and so he undermines his belief.
Dude has no consistency in his philosophy, mainly because it seems like has has not read any philosophy. Very unsophisticated man
poor boy admits he doesn't know how to use words :( 01:08:40
If a being came to earth and was god like, I would still NOT ever worship it.
Reza eats human brain.
I know Reza for years, of course no personally, just to get sense what people think from other side of wall that divide atheism and religion. He is very educated and intelligent person and it was reason why I choose him to tell me his point of view regarding religion! In the same time I fallow Sean for years and fellow his science lectures! This interview gave me a very good insight just from guys on opposite side of aisle! Demanding interview, because it easy to talk with somebody who agreed with you, but it is difficult to manage it with people with opposite view! Great interview Sean! One of your listeners said: “Be careful Sean”! As a good scientist, Sean is man of great integrity and I would never say something like that!
This was awesome! I myself have a similar way of expressing my spiritual side despite being very scientifically minded. I’m gonna check out their shows. Thanks & I enjoyed something deeply hidden, bought as a bday gift also for a friend. Bless you all, especially non believers
Isn’t this the guy that ate human brains?
Yes.
That's why Sean has him on Mindscape.
@@Emanresu56 Minds-ate
So Alan thinks his prophet marrying a child is moral thing.
Reza has been caught lying too many times to be taken seriously on anything
"caught lying"?? give me your best example
@@calldwnthesky6495 th-cam.com/video/E9RmAo6XVAA/w-d-xo.html
why don't you sam harris groupies stick with his videos. they'll make you feel much better. don't refer me to the david packman (sp?) show either. answer the challenge yourself you fekkin 3 year old. what was his most "egregious" lie ??? can you handle that?? and give me just a dash of supporting evidence that it was actually a lie. and no a link to a david packman or fox news video won't do it
@@calldwnthesky6495 There's an entire video cataloguing all his lies. He did what you asked, nobody is obliged to make time for you, to type out the examples, if there's a video with all the proof. You choose to ignore it. Okay. Then just shut the fuck up and get on with your pathetic excuse for a life.
@@jesperburns not making time for me, you're making time to show you have some ability to advocate for yourself and the things you say... without constantly pointing to others to do it for you. the thing that comes out of your mouth most often is probably "yeah, what HE said!!" ("he" being david packman or whomever your little hero is.) child. you're a follower, a parrot. you surely won't gain my respect. esp when you're white knighting for your pathetic little youtube teammates, like "hershy"
he knows "how bullshit are most of religions in the world"... He choses islam. (audience applause)
Reza blurts out "it's absurd to not tax churches" but fails to offer a "because", such as because it puts government in the business of defining churches. He opposes faith based initiatives while failing to offer an argument, such as pointing out that the first few versions of the First Amendment were discarded because they allowed faith based initiatives. He's not the first to say American exceptionalism is BS either, but just says "in a thousand ways". When he does offer points of view they're as unenlightening as his opinions.
don't do religion kids
Cudos for Reza, some nice Rumi word dance! Let us just face it: words are for usage of power promoting some ideology, materialistic, theistic, or whatsoever. Regulate, advocate, suppress, praise. I think prof Carroll did not catch why religious metaphors are for. Half of the group do get the blood of the Lamb, and half do not get it. How many people do get Dirac's equation or decoherence? Which one would describe the world around us better? Depends entirely on the sociological context.
I am an Iranian and we know, this vile creature is extremely stupid and a supporter of the terrorist regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and completely against the people of Iran who have been taken hostage by that sullen dictatorship Mullah's regime
I stopped listening after only a few minutes. This adds nothing to my knowledge or to the wider discourse, and it is not necessary to broadcast insanity to give something like fairness or contrast.
There's not much left in Islam when you remove everything Reza does from it. Ship of Theseus anyone ?
i like Reza... when he talks about social and political issues (as they relate to the muslim world, and elsewhere) and also that he opens the door for practice of a brand of islam which i'm least uncomfortable with... but when he inevitably gets around to the topics of "spirituality" or "pantheism" i find it hard to stay interested in what he's saying. i could agree that a "religious impulse" is something that we all share but when Reza seems to take the position very solidly, that religious impulse is not only an evolutionary bi-product but that it can be actively suppressed *without a great degree* of effort (and in many cases, comes with a substantial amount of constructive emancipation) i don't know why he or anyone would spend so much effort (as he seems to) talking or thinking about it (esp as a useful part of the human experience)...
This dude is so confused he doesn't realise that his pantheisim means he ain't a Muslim. Its like saying you are Christian but you don't believe in Christ.
uh . . no
@@calldwnthesky6495 I don't think Sean Carroll would approve of commenters on his videos calling each other "idiots".
@@Emanresu56 no Sean probably would not approve of it, tho it's worth a try since Reza said the word "fuck" twice in less than a minute or so at the beginning of the podcast
@Mike Siler1 i'm an atheist. look at the comment i left further up (or down?) in the comments section. so you going to answer the original question i put specifically to you, idiot? or you gonna just herd together with your buddies here in the comment section so you can make each other feel better?
@Mike Siler1 nice try idiot but i didn't erase my own comment. i still see it there in my notifications feed. maybe it's not visible to you (or anyone else) in the general comments section cause you got your feelings hurt and flagged it as spam. so you gonna answer the question i asked of you idiot? or maybe you were looking for a video featuring sam harris. that might be more your speed...
@Mike Siler1 if you don't want to be called an idiot leave a comment with some thought put into it. i left another reply on your original "Sean said something stupid LOL" comment (the one with virtually no thought put into it) if you're interested
If everything is god then there is no way to define it more specifically than that. Therefore the universe which is defined as everything (unless there is a multiverse but still the same point) is god. If the universe is god and the universe is made of energy then science is the only true 'religion' because it is the study of energy / mass-based reality. And necessarily a definable god other than the universe is false. Reza is either self-deluding about god or he is an atheist and too scared to admit it (which is the same thing).
Reza gives answers to Religion as an experiential phenomenon. And makes the point that the human brain seeks such connections and therefore they have value. This is a difficult topic. WHY THE HATE.
How can you put a known liar on your channel ? I am out.
The poor guy, all into "god" or whatever but thinks hell is complete bullshit.
I feel for his lack of perspective.
At the point he talks about 'evolutionary impulse/process' I had to give up listening. He then goes to back this up with archeological finds, what he seems in capable of understanding is that religions developed from belief structures, which in turn developed from primitive humans trying to describe and understand the world in which they lived. Biblical stories have their origins in earlier civilisation stories the 'great flood and the ark' being a prime example. So, you cannot back up your ideology with how religions developed through the culture during the Megalithic then Stone Age and probably far further back into time. These stories fit the understanding of their era but should not be taken as evidence or proof that any religion has credibility into todays society. Many of these religions tried to bring order by setting rules for people to adhere to. This was an obviously a necessity when trying to deal with far larger populations and the formation of early civilisations and those rules in many cases stand the test of time to form social cohesion. Primitive man had hundreds of thousands of years to develop and what they had learnt during this time is psychology and human interactions.
Nearly 50 years ago I dropped a hit of acid. I was a physics major at the time and a total agnostic. Ventured out to the back yard on my knees observed a single blade of grass….seems like yesterday. A voice(me) all that you need to know is front of your eyes all the answers in a blade of grass. Didn’t need the teacher again…all these years later it’s a meditation. Wish Sean would chew mushrooms or smoke DMT. Religion is a metaphor and a wonderful social club but neither has been outside the box.Taking side with Sean. Peace Oh and there is fucking evil and resides here on Earth.
Disappointing conversation. How does Prof Aslan know what the brain was designed to do? And over articulation is not evidence.
I think we should stick with what we know for sure, and then have our best people work on what we don’t know.
Aslan hasn't had a clear thought in his life.
Inspiring and educational, thank you very much both of you. Have read some of Reza's books and plan to read some of Seans. As a religious person who believes in the monotheistic God I can attest to the fact that in the monotheistic religions free and rational thought has tradtionally been heavely subverted to the favour of blind obedience. That is why it is quit understandable the reaction of many of the scientism ideologes in these commenteries when they witness a religious person like Reza who is a strong proponent of free and rational inquiry and proponent of the scientific method. Verify, yes, consider frames of reference, yes, be aware of information bias, yes, but do not let intolerant dogmatic religios people who are proponents of blind obedience dictate the terms regarding how we religious people who are rational and open minded should discuss religion and science with scientist like Sean that are not arrogant or patronizing.
I am an Iranian and we know, this vile creature is extremely stupid and a supporter of the terrorist regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and completely against the people of Iran who have been taken hostage by that sullen dictatorship Mullah's regime
As the ending argument: bias must end, even it is at the root of some personality.
The metaphor, 2° amendment, religion amplifies things, like put the old cathedral on fire... Atheism is like being natural, inevitable but truth.
Maybe we should compete doing greater good, as nature grows and mycelium networks mysticism...,🙏🤔🌼🌻
Let gay couples adopt.
Important example.
But again, fight against that would be devastating to the nature of religious theologies.
Positive aspects of building on a pile of corpses, jail, torture and discrimination is a given.
I just remember positive actions of today... We want them, don't we? Even with Bias... 🤔🙏
Ontology? I doubt it.
It is not a choice.
We must see 🎭
good (?)
Taxing is a laugh 😂
Albeit that definition is doubtful..
Tax regulation is an insult to other economic agents.
Talk less. You're get banned.
The scientism vs spiritualism debate is fundamentally about causality. Scientism believes in emergence, and is ignoring the non-linearity of time that its own physics attests to. Spiritualism believes in a singular formless source, and is ignoring that this too is a conceptual overlay on direct experience.
One doesn't need to throw out the laws of physics and empiricism, nor faith and felt sense. One can simply recognize that both are built on a *belief* in causality and not try to extrapolate it into some kind of "absolute truth" and use it to justify existence.
Yes. This is a fantastic comment. Thanks. I agree so much.
This scammer is not qualified to appear in your great podcast.
i was surprised.
You shouldn't have too much of an open mind around this one. He might just take a bite!
Poor choice of guest.
better than a lot of other muslims would be, don't you think? hamza tzortzis comes to mind
@@calldwnthesky6495 no.
@@rumblefishes no what?!
sorry for hitting dislike on your video, you were great, but the guest isn't worth people's time